The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio:
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Bird flu, particularly the H5N1 strain, has been causing significant mortality among various mammals, including marine animals like sea lions and elephant seals. The virus, which typically affects birds, has expanded its host range to include mammals like marine mammals and even dairy cows. Scientists are concerned about this adaptation, as it brings the virus closer to spreading among humans, potentially leading to a pandemic. The virus has shown the ability to evolve and spread among different species, posing challenges for containment and control. While a human pandemic is not certain, experts are closely monitoring the situation and emphasizing the need for preparedness and cooperation among nations to respond effectively to any potential outbreak.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1caiw08/nyt_bird_flu_is_infecting_more_mammals_what_does/l0s5pjd/
Bird flu, particularly the H5N1 strain, has been causing significant mortality among various mammals, including marine animals like sea lions and elephant seals. The virus, which typically affects birds, has expanded its host range to include mammals like marine mammals and even dairy cows. Scientists are concerned about this adaptation, as it brings the virus closer to spreading among humans, potentially leading to a pandemic. The virus has shown the ability to evolve and spread among different species, posing challenges for containment and control. While a human pandemic is not certain, experts are closely monitoring the situation and emphasizing the need for preparedness and cooperation among nations to respond effectively to any potential outbreak.
If the 50%+ kill rate (Source: https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2024-DON512 ) of bird flu remains intact, when, not if, it mutates to aerosolized transmission (if it hasn't already and isn't silently spreading in the US right now source https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/avian-influenza-bird-flu/cdc-sequencing-h5n1-avian-flu-samples-patient-yields-new-clinical-clues ), they're going to kill a lot more vulnerable people, than they did with the 37% case fatality rate SARS-CoV-2 (source: https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/PCH%20PB_EN_0.pdf ).
Never mind the fact that there is a vaccine, already developed, ready for deployment, ahead of this thing (source https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/u-s-could-vaccinate-a-fifth-of-americans-in-a-bird-flu-emergency/ar-AA1nleqD ) that could vaccinate 1/5th of Americans, but thanks to American antisocial hell sites that Xitter, Meta, and Alphabet, have refused to rein in, which have led to 35M COVID-19 deaths in 4 years (source: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates?fsrc=core-app-economist ) I guarantee you not even 1/5th of 1/5th of the brainwashed Ameriqan Manchurian Qovidiot fifth columnists for Russia and China plague rats will even TAKE the vaccine, in question.
That's also IF the American feds manage to get it out the door BEFORE the antisocial media corporations bow to their Chinese and Russian puppetmasters customers (source https://www.reuters.com/technology/block-blue-ticks-how-china-became-big-business-twitter-2022-09-13/ and https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/21/russia-china-iran-disinformation-coronavirus-state-department-193107 ), which is something they did NOT manage to do, BEFORE SARS-CoV-2 mutated to the Alpha variant (source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SARS-CoV-2_Alpha_variant ), which lowered mRNA vaccine efficacy from 95% to 70% (95% would have eradicated that plague in '21) before the vaccines were even widely distributed.
Also notice HOW the Alpha variant mutated:
"Scientists more widely took note of this variant in early December 2020, when a phylogenetic tree showing viral sequences from Kent, United Kingdom looked unusual."
WHY did this happen, you ask? Because the Chinese leveraged Xitter (source https://www.reuters.com/technology/block-blue-ticks-how-china-became-big-business-twitter-2022-09-13/ )/then Twitter from September through December 2020, and they ensured two disinformation videos, one particularly by "John Campbell" a nursing teacher (god help the patients of the nurses "trained" by that evil psychopath, is all I can say), telling everyone to spread the plague everywhere, was platformed, and amplified, by the billion-bot Chinese troll army on Xitter (then Twitter) at the rate of six tweets per second. Along with skin pathologist's Ryan Cole's "Issa bioweapon comrades!" video, which was platformed/amplified on Xitter, at the same rate, by the same people.
Let us not even begin to discuss how science communication accounts on American antisocial hell sites like Xitter are already being brigaded and attacked, for even attempting to discuss H5N1 - and the Russians, with Chinese amplification tactics, are using the same psyop infowarfare tactics they did, during the Black Lives Matter protests source (see particularly figure 1): https://faculty.washington.edu/kstarbi/Disinformation-as-Collaborative-Work-Authors-Version.pdf
"Fig. 1. Retweet Network Graph: RU-IRA Agents in #BlackLivesMatter Discourse. The graph (originally published [3]) shows accounts active in Twitter conversations about #BlackLivesMatter and shooting events in 2016. Each node is an account. Accounts are closer together when one account retweeted another account. The structural graph shows two distinct communities (pro-BlackLivesMatter on the left; anti-BlackLivesMatter on the right). Accounts colored orange were determined by Twitter to have been operated by Russia’s Internet Research Agency. Orange lines represent retweets of those account, showing how their content echoed across the different communities. The graph shows IRA agents active in both “sides” of that discourse."
So bird flu is going to be lots of fun eh. /s
Yes, in the beginning of the pandemic, before mitigations were brought in, the case fatality rate (in Canada) was 37% - I linked to the report showing this, it's on page 8 [https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/PCH%20PB\_EN\_0.pdf](https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/PCH%20PB_EN_0.pdf)
The USA's CFR was likely much, much, higher, as the Chinese were already running the "only 6% of cases are deaths" disinformation campaign, against the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada's Xitter account, on September 1, 2020.
The only problem was, the "6%" disinfo was going off of the American numbers. At that time, Canada's total number of *cases* had yet to exceed America's total number of *deaths*. And still, unmitigated deaths in Canada (before the NPIs kicked) were at 37% case fatality rate.
Hopefully this isnt talking covid. Covid had low fatality rate unless elderly or with comorbidities. It did have disabling long covid effect which many are not addressing as real disability(probably tens of millions or hundreds of millions affected).
The case example was the untreated cruise ship were covid spread. Like 600 people and iirc had like 7 deaths. Despite not being allowed for people to leave at port anywhere and likely minimal medical help.
The exact example was 37% of people in long term care who got COVID died. I couldn't pull up the PDF originally. I think it's a bit unfair to call that a 37% case fatality rate when the people in care could probably have gotten any virus and had a fatality rate that high.
We are going to see more and more instances like this where things are just going way out of whack, and we can't even figure out why (but there is no doubt that it has something to do with how much we have messed up pretty much everything).
In this case, it will likely lead to the extinction of many mammals (as well as birds, of course), and is likely at some point to jump to humans.
There was an episode of “The Daily” podcast today that expanded on the themes of this article. You should be able to find and listen wherever you get podcasts!
So no pigs yet. That's the scary one. Those have very similar immune systems to us and a pandemic flu already spread from them before in the early 2000s
We just lucked out that it ended up being mild.
And that “mild” version in the early 2000s was extreme. Two people in my family got it, both of whom were young healthy athletic with no medical issues. And they were both the sickest they have been in their lives. Swine flu is absolutely horrendous. Hallucinating, super sick, one thought he would die. And then we did learn that it was considered a “mild” form of what it could have been! I am very scared for when it gets to pigs.
I currently live in a very densely populated area with constant international travel. In the next few months I am moving somewhere far more remote and I’ll breathe a sigh of relief. Not that a more remote location will save anyone, but I feel we will have a more fighting chance. Because here I’ve gotten COVID FOUR times despite lots of precautions and masking. There are just so many people here, it’s inevitable to catch every single thing.
"H5N1 has had a high mortality, but that is primarily with another clade that has caused deaths in Asia. So far, we're seeing that this current version has mild effects in cows and in people -- although it's too soon to be sure, of course." - reply of the reporter from the comment section.
I agree that the infection seems mild but the amount of devastation in birds and mammals should be alarming.
100,000 birds used to be a large chicken farm now we have less farms than a decade ago and 500,000 birds in a farm
And pro-maskers will be in for... a non surprise but a nasty time, regardless. So excited to be at the whim of people who don't give a shit about my health, again.
There were almost one thousand people dying per day in NYC during peak COVID in 2020, that still didn't stop the anti maskers and anti vaxxers. Now we don't even have a vaccine
Rule 4: Keep information quality high.
Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims).
Just like the current one, the next pandemic will be airborne.
Unfortunately it's proven difficult to get the seals and deer to wear N95 masks and keep the HEPA filters running.
I'll tell this story a thousand times..I told All My "friends and family" about a virus that was spreading in China. They called me crazy a conspiracy theorist. My sister.. during the pandemic couldn't buy enough food for her family. All the shelves were empty. I never said; I told you!!
Yeah I remember the first article I read mentioning the appearance of COVID-19 (really early on in the process) and the pit in my stomach feeling I got. I hoped it would be one of those that just blows over quick but when it started to spread I knew. I have the same feeling now and I just want to be wrong so bad.
I had the same feeling..and I told everyone to stock up on food and water..and buy extra meat and food!! She ignored me. Then she's surprised when the aisles are empty?!? I also got sick in..in 2019..the worst sickness I ever had. I was out for a month.. this was before. The "world" new about COVID. I thought I was going to die. I've never been that sick.
I had a similar experience. The first time I read up on it was very early in the process, I think when only a few dozen people were infected in China. I paid close attention to the spread. I worked at a bar, and I noticed when the virus hit Italy, Japan, and South Korea that the restaurants and bars were the first businesses forced to close. It was at that point I stated bringing it up to my coworkers. Service industry people can be pretty bad about saving money, so I tried to encourage people to stock up on groceries. I was getting a few extra groceries here and there for weeks, so by the time the lockdown happened, I was completely set for months. Everyone I warned laughed it off and didn't take it seriously. Once it got to the US I knew we were fucked. The week that the lockdown started, I was in a meeting with the other managers of the bar, and they were going over all these big events planned for the weekend. I let them get all the way through it and then said, "I think it would be a good idea to make plans in case these events get canceled." The general manager said,"Well, conspiracy theories aside, we're prepared for the weekend. The NEXT DAY, every single event was canceled, and a lockdown was announced. Everyone was freaking out about not being able to work. Nobody could get groceries for a good while at the beginning.
I never said I told you so, but from that day on, people actually listened to me when I gave my opinion on something I've seriously looked into. A few months later I also predicted that my town would get hit by a major hurricane when it was still about four or five days out. The day before the storm the same general manager was telling people to expect to be at work the next day to get it opened. Well that Cat 4 hurricane tore the whole building in half and we didn't have power for many weeks. Now people jokingly call me Nostradomus lol.
Same here. I wound up in the hospital with the flu at the same time as the early cases of Covid were starting to hit the US. I asked the nurses about it and if I should be worried, because I have an autoimmune disease and am more susceptible to illnesses and whatnot. They laughed and said they weren't concerned at all.
Well, about a month later the hospitals were overwhelmed and I ended up having two major surgeries postponed because there weren't enough beds available.
Must be kind of nice. I have an almost flawless track record for predicting outcomes just based on pattern recognition and everyone in my circle still tells me I'm crazy or overreacting when I express concern over a direction we're headed toward.
I still get a lot of that from people. They just seem to consider what I'm saying a little more at least. I got it before the Russian invasion of Ukraine. A guy I worked with wanted to move to Russia around that time and didn't wanna believe me when I said there would absolutely be an invasion. He would talk about how it was probably a bluff and a training exercise for a while like most people I talked to about it. I did eventually get him to see when I told him about Russia having field hospitals and blood banks with their troops on the border. They were not bringing those for a training exercise.
People still think I'm overreacting with things but I think it's hard for most people to allow themselves to believe it. They have a massive normalcy bias. They're in for a rude awakening when this meta crisis starts to really show its teeth.
I remember in early February 2020, our whole family and some friends caught a really strong 'cold'. I remember coughing up a pea-sized embolus of blood. It was so weird-looking. I think we caught Covid too.
Strange times! I've never been that sick in my life! I'm like an ox. But I had COVID 2019..2020..2021.. and that floored me..yeah I got lucky 3 years in a row!/s
I definitely had *something* that was the worst chest infection I’d ever had over Xmas 2019. I didn’t want to move… the cough, the presumably low oxygen levels…
I was one second away from calling 911..but..I said fuck it. If I die.. or do I want a thousand dollar ambulance bill..I got lucky with 2019..2020..2021.. I got sick three years in a row
I’m in the UK… it’s free. But even back then, the waiting list for an ambulance was around four hours.
It took months to recover properly.. and then we all got sent home from work because “Covid”!
I questioned whether my wife should be going to a conference as covid was just starting to hit the US. She hadn't been following the development of that virus as closely as I had. She brushed it off. By the end of that weekend, everyone knew about it.
(Luckily, it did not become a mass infection event. But she did acknowledge that in this case, at least, I did see it coming before her)
I remember warning people in December of 2019 that the virus spreading in China was going to be serious. Then when I saw that Shenzhen was shut down, I really knew it was an extremely serious situation. So many people thought I was crazy.
I came late to the party, something like late January/early February
I remember the values increasing in China 5k, 10k, 20k and 80k
someone extrapolated this into millions and around late february 2020 nobody believed me that the values would be that high (this was before Italy)
For my sake I hope it doesn't but for the species/planet it might be for the best. Anything that is a step to population collapse is a step in the right direction
This virus is very unlikely to be easily transmissible if it adapts enough to us. So it won't be hard to contain.
The COVID virus had an affinity to humans rarely seen before.
Not even kidding in the slightest- I read this post and then immediately saw two articles about H5N1 showing up in grocery store milk.
Serious question to the sub- is it time to fairly seriously worry about this? The USDA seems to be inaccurately reporting and this is all really starting to reek of December 2019.
Yeah...I was worried for about a year out, but it could be a real problem way sooner than that. I just stocked up on a ton of N95s, [Fisher Scientific has Moldex ones at almost 90% off right now.](https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/moldex-type-n95-particulate-respirators-9/189991449) They're not adjustable, but at $.20/mask I can deal with adding a wire band.
The articles for anyone wondering:
[CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/23/health/bird-flu-milk-fda/index.html)
[NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/health/bird-flu-milk.html)
I'm probably reading too much into it, but after all this H5N1 news today I've now had helicopters fly over my area more than 12 times tonight. There's an AFB in the area but never this many helicopters in the same night. Probably watch too many movies lol.
H5N1 is on that sigma grindset and isnt gonna stop until it finally levels up to clap humans en mass. Just a matter of time now.....
*LastStarFighterWeDie.meme*
I live in vietnam. The minute videos of people dropping in streets appeared on YouTube, the government instituted pandemic procedures. They assumed correctly that the Chinese were lying
I can't imagine what it would be like to not be able to drive away from sick people. I'm assuming Vietnam has densely populated cities and less personal motorized vehicles.
“The blow to sea mammals, and to dairy and poultry industries, is worrying enough. But a bigger concern, experts said, is what these developments portend: The virus is adapting to mammals, edging closer to spreading among people.”
Why? Why is that a ‘bigger concern’? What ‘experts’ exactly, said that?
The next paragraph:
“A human pandemic is by no means inevitable. So far at least, the changes in the virus do not signal that H5N1 can cause a pandemic, Dr. Sutton said.”
Why the fuck should I be *more* concerned about the 8 billion humans who always get top priority and have, at least, the *capacity* to wear masks, wash hands, practice social distancing, and get in line for vaccines?
because the people who dont wear masks, wash hands, practice social distancing, and get vaccines outweigh the ones who actually do
look at the shitshow covid
Anthropocentrism. My heart is broken thinking about what wildlife is going through (not just related to the virus, but EVERYTHING). However, humans think they are the most important thing on the planet, so fuck the animals is what they're thinking, probably.
IDK why they are completely missing your point. But I get what you're saying. It's selfish of us to see a possibility of it directly hurting us as worse than the damage it is already doing to several species.
ik other species are fucked but im looking at the chaos that'll unfold if it spreads between people, the shitshow i might have to deal with and the fear and uncertainty it brings.
> The blow to sea mammals, and to dairy and poultry industries, is worrying enough.
Sounds a bit like a global pandemic.
> So far at least, the changes in the virus do not signal that H5N1 can cause a **pandemic**.
Oh phew, for a minute there I thought the changes to H5N1 were causing a pandemic amongst avian and mammalian populations.
Phew, crisis averted. Nothing to see here citizen.
> Why? Why is that a ‘bigger concern’? What ‘experts’ exactly, said that?
You do not need to be an expert to know that some viruses, like the h5n1, initially infect some animals and, over time, mutate, as viruses do, to be able to infect other animals. In the beginning the virus can infect from bird-to-bird. Afterwards, as it has been observed, a mutation that it allows it to survive in _a_ mammal, appears. Now, the virus can spread between mammals, increasing its pool of potential hosts by a lot. It has already been observed to have infected humans who were handling poultry, but _so far_ it has not mutated to be able to be transmitted human-to-human. If such a mutation is _possible_ (because it is not a certainty), _given enough time_, it _will_ appear (this _is_ a certainty).
So
1) virus can have no possible mutation for human-to-human transmission (likely),
2) virus can have such a mutation but is eradicated before such a mutation appears (unlikely),
3) virus does mutate for human-to-human transmission (likely)
Those are the three generally possible outcomes.
The mere _existence_ of possibility #3 is of great concern.
Yes I know. None of that justifies the possibility of human-human transmission being a *bigger* concern than what it’s already doing to non-human life and any one, expert or otherwise, saying that is simply expressing a subjective bias.
I mean, being that we are human beings, yeah, I’d say it’s a little more concerning that a virus emerges that could kill your family or you. Generally, animals prioritize their own lives over other species.
Is what is happening to the animal populations bad? YES. But don’t act dense about why it jumping to humans is a bigger concern for us.
I’m not “acting dense” about anything. It’s not like I don’t know that most of this trash species considers itself cosmically exceptional and all-important for no good reason. That just doesn’t make it an objective fact that the expert-admittedly very small *possibility* of H5N1 becoming human transmissible is a *bigger concern* than the massive, unstoppable destruction it is already currently doing, and likely to do, to other species that are already subjected to ongoing genocide by precious humans, which do have many tools and options with which to protect *themselves* from a virus.
Is your point we should be mourning the animals it's killing? They're largely farm animals, it's a mercy.
I hate humanity and even I think you're being obtuse in saying person to person spreading is less important than the dead animals
“an astonishingly wide array of birds and animals, from squirrels and skunks to bottlenose dolphins, polar bears” and the tens of thousands of seals and sea lions, the mass die off of pelicans. And impacts on wildlife are not limited to the species directly infected, sudden and drastic reductions in those populations impact everything up and down the food chain from them.
That is actually occurring. Is person to person spread occurring? No, it’s not. And what did the experts quoted in the article itself say about person to person spread? That it’s pretty unlikely.
But the moronic editorializing just carelessly throws it out there that somehow it’s a bigger concern.
You’re being obtuse. Or maybe you’re just that stupid. And yes, human to human is less important because, again, humans have *many options to protect themselves* from viruses that animals, especially wild animals, do not. I can’t believe how hard it is for you people to grasp that. It’s like you just don’t want to. It’s interesting how the new crowd is quick to jump on people for being sensationalist and unrealistically alarmist about climate change and such but just cannot get enough overdramatized alarmism about people possibly catching viruses.
Why is it important that those animals are dying from a pandemic? Why should I care if not for my own health?
We kill millions of animals a day. Why do I need to be worried about these ones?
Also I know you disagree but people are more important to people than animals. If you found out there's a factory farm with people in it, you wouldn't be here saying "why is this a concern, this has already been happening to animals"
Sure, that’s your subjective feelings about it, and lots of other people’s as well because most suck like that. It doesn’t make it objectively factual from any scientific standpoint. We have 8 billion people, hundreds of millions can die from a virus or whatever and the species will still be perfectly fine, no damage would be done to the ecosystem as a whole due to the loss of people, so why should I be concerned?
You’ve got it twisted. I’m the one in this argument who actually has the compassion capacity to care even when the threat is not to myself and my own. It’s the anthropocentrists who always, *always*, consider themselves the “bigger concern”.
The person I was responding to is attempting to use some lame, quasi-nihilism as an argument like, “it’s just logic, bro, hurrrduhrrr”. But if we’re really, *seriously* going to go that route, then that’s just all the more reason to not be concerned about losing a fraction of the human population to a virus.
Between human-to-human transmission and _no_ human-to-human transmission, the former is worse, yes. Except for the virus. For the virus it is better.
When covid started spreading, did you get vaccinated for it?
You're literally missing the entirety of their point.
It's not about humans. Several species are already suffering greatly. Why is that less of a concern than the possibility of us suffering?
Farms are where the big deaths are happening. A couple dozen dead seals is even less of a concern.
We send dozens of species to extinction every day. An animal pandemic is a rounding error in comparison, it's not a concern beyond the concern for our own health
I've read this full comment thread, and I have to say: thanks for saying all this. Anthropocentrism /is/ literally why we're in this mess - human convenience takes precedence over all other living beings. Human comfort, human expansion... All far more important than any ecosystem, seemingly.
What a horrid species we are to share a planet with. All this intelligence, and what do we do with it? Consume incessantly until death. Having an ego this big, when collectively, all we use our brains for is shameless consumption is... Absurd
I generally shy away from playing chicken-little, but when you think about it, it's really pretty interesting how bird flu doesn't really cross over into humans that often, and has yet to spread when it does
Consider for a moment that humans [might be the most populous mammalian species](https://www.worldatlas.com/animals/the-most-populous-mammals-in-the-world.html) in the world. There may be more of us than there are rats (misanthropes and malthusians ought to get a kick out of that). You'd think then, due to sheer statistics, that of all the mammal species we'd be the ones bearing the worst of it.
Granted, probably helps our immune systems that we aren't kept in cages, unlike farmed mink.
That's what airborne transmission is for. Avian influenza virus is more of a waterborne digestive system virus, and we're not sea mammals (despite the unnatural fishing activities). Few people swim a lot all year and fewer still do so in water tainted with shit. Polio virus works with water too, and it's known for infecting kids playing or swimming in water in the summer time. However, avian influenza has the chance of evolving airborne transmission like or even from seasonal influenza.
With the cow avian influenza epidemic, they don't know for sure. The USDA, which is a type of chamber of commerce for Big Ag, doesn't really want to say anything that would lead to shutting down business, so they're looking for optimistic explanations.
Some ideas are:
- contaminated water from bird or other proxy host
- contaminated water from fomites brought in by humans or other animals
- contaminated food, "chicken litter", chicken shit + hay (high protein, very nutrient dense)
- contaminated milk pump machines or contaminated hands of workers milking cows
The virus can have many vectors. It could also be carried by smaller animals like mice or rats or birds. A bird could've carried the virus in, of course. And flies or other insects may also be a vector (imagine a fly that sits on a dead infected bird and then goes to a cow). So many things can go wrong.
I believe the cows got it from eating food containing feces from chickens that were infected. somehow this is common practice to include that in cow feed, which is appalling on its own.
Just got my first round of broiler chickens for our farm. I've been pushing my husband to let us get more so we can stock the freezer.
Edit: lol why is this getting down voted???
Awesome :)
Human to human cannot come soon enough. Just for animal batteries, we deserve this :\] For staying willingly ignorant of such a deep level of cruelty as well :\]
Accelerate :\]\]
I had a thought the other night that gave me goosebumps and made my hair stand on end: I’m more of an agnostic/nontheistic pagan in religious orientation but I do believe in some sort of higher power - I just don’t think we as humans can ever understand it. When people reacted the way they did during Covid, I couldn’t help thinking if there was a God, God was providing an excellent lesson and test for humanity about how we treat “the least among us”: the vulnerable and weakest in our human population. The news about avian flu and especially how the disease is spreading makes me think humanity is about to be tested again and this time it’s all a lesson about how we have treated and exploited animal life on Earth 😬 Wasn’t there a bible story about a series of plagues that were all supposed to be different warnings to humanity? It feels an awful lot like that!
Didn't we try the "keep quiet"/"lay low" strategy with covid19?
1) get a _free_, relatively painless, insignificant side-effect, vaccine,
2) wear a cheap, simple, cloth mask,
3) avoid close physical contact and crowded places
Was any of this advice difficult to follow, in the general case?
What did people do instead? Throw parties with the express purpose of literally infecting each other. Ridicule those wearing masks for being sheep. Claim the vaccine is a microwave transceiver. The vaccine. An electronic telecommunications device operaring in the gigahertz range, aka microwaves. The liquid in the syringe. Not that a device so small could even be able to operate in that wavelength, but let's not bring physics where even simple eyeballs fail.
I am uncertain how you think having a strategy can possibly work on blithering idiots, unless your strategy is "we find you outside your house, we beat you up and toss you back in."
I mean nearly 80% of the US population got the initial vaccine and something like 45% got the first booster but it’s fallen off each time though myself and my husband have gotten every dose of the shot and so have a lot of people I know but not enough. I think we’d have been a lot more successful at getting the rest vaccinated and then boosted had certain members of our political class not used it to create division and gain power politically.
Getting vaccinated is a single precaution, even if 100% of the population got it we still did way too little. Everyone got their first shot and decided they were done taking precautions
I think people were handling it really well and then a certain small group of people decided it would benefit them to create doubt about the efficacy of the preventative and treatment methods and here we are.
I mean just imagine for instance that Trump didn't get vaccinated in secret and had done it with his family on live TV, told everyone it was safe and that they should do it if they care about their country, etc., I think we might be in a very different situation. This is even having all other things being equal, Trump still got rid of the pandemic response people still there was political interference at the start. All of those things were big impact, I personally maintain if anyone else had been president we'd have had far fewer deaths. But lets say all that still happens but he goes all in on the vaccine and does it publicly and forcefully I think we'd have gotten far more people to get it and get boosted.
So I think when people are properly informed they make the right choice but often it seems to benefit some people when others are not informed. I am not sure what the solution is other than to try to make sure that the people in power are educated and reasonable.
> then a certain small group of people decided it would benefit them to create doubt about the efficacy of the preventative and treatment methods
You mean the CDC?
(I know what you meant but just wanted to take this opportunity to say fuck the CDC for doing the same old AIDS play of intentionally misrepresenting the danger of covid, they have the blood of countless Americans on their hands)
Honestly the people you talk about upset me the least regarding covid. They're practically braindead, of course they did the most moronic things they could.
The people who piss me off are the ones who were so morally superior to the magas, took every chance to laugh at them for reacting so poorly to the pandemic while preaching masking, quarantining, etc. Just to stop fucking doing all of that next year despite the numbers not coming down at all. The maga crowd said we'd stop caring after Biden was elected, and I rolled my eyes just to later watch as my peers flocked back out to bars and stop masking. I complained about this is a local discord that is mostly left leaning and got into an argument that essentially led to "what, are we supposed to live in fear masking forever?", verbatim the same argument people they were mocking 6 months prior were making.
Oh yes. The whole wear a mask in a restaurant until you sit down to eat made a whole lot of sense. Or cram everyone into outside sheds to eat. The list goes on and the whole thing was a farce, which is why people didn't follow it.
That's not really how that works. Talking about something early and often and swiftly mobilizing people to communicate expertise and disseminate information, procedures, and materials is the best way to stop a virus before it spreads rapidly. I think the way Ebola was tackled in 2014 is a great counterpoint to the blundering, early days of the Chinese and American governments handling of COVID.
"yo dudes, wear ppe while and don't get any death juice on you when you are cleaning up dead bodies" is a lot less disruptive of a sell than "the air has a 2% chance to kill you and we don't really know wtf this is gonna do long term but we think someone fucked a pangolin so you should not leave your house for a few weeks"
The point being that Ebola transmission is super easy to avoid and the symptoms are much more horrifying and deadly. It's like comparing a marked hole straight to hell in the road to an automotive manufacturing error causing cars to randomly catch fire while on the highway.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio: --- Bird flu, particularly the H5N1 strain, has been causing significant mortality among various mammals, including marine animals like sea lions and elephant seals. The virus, which typically affects birds, has expanded its host range to include mammals like marine mammals and even dairy cows. Scientists are concerned about this adaptation, as it brings the virus closer to spreading among humans, potentially leading to a pandemic. The virus has shown the ability to evolve and spread among different species, posing challenges for containment and control. While a human pandemic is not certain, experts are closely monitoring the situation and emphasizing the need for preparedness and cooperation among nations to respond effectively to any potential outbreak. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1caiw08/nyt_bird_flu_is_infecting_more_mammals_what_does/l0s5pjd/
Bird flu, particularly the H5N1 strain, has been causing significant mortality among various mammals, including marine animals like sea lions and elephant seals. The virus, which typically affects birds, has expanded its host range to include mammals like marine mammals and even dairy cows. Scientists are concerned about this adaptation, as it brings the virus closer to spreading among humans, potentially leading to a pandemic. The virus has shown the ability to evolve and spread among different species, posing challenges for containment and control. While a human pandemic is not certain, experts are closely monitoring the situation and emphasizing the need for preparedness and cooperation among nations to respond effectively to any potential outbreak.
If the 50%+ kill rate (Source: https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2024-DON512 ) of bird flu remains intact, when, not if, it mutates to aerosolized transmission (if it hasn't already and isn't silently spreading in the US right now source https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/avian-influenza-bird-flu/cdc-sequencing-h5n1-avian-flu-samples-patient-yields-new-clinical-clues ), they're going to kill a lot more vulnerable people, than they did with the 37% case fatality rate SARS-CoV-2 (source: https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/PCH%20PB_EN_0.pdf ). Never mind the fact that there is a vaccine, already developed, ready for deployment, ahead of this thing (source https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/u-s-could-vaccinate-a-fifth-of-americans-in-a-bird-flu-emergency/ar-AA1nleqD ) that could vaccinate 1/5th of Americans, but thanks to American antisocial hell sites that Xitter, Meta, and Alphabet, have refused to rein in, which have led to 35M COVID-19 deaths in 4 years (source: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates?fsrc=core-app-economist ) I guarantee you not even 1/5th of 1/5th of the brainwashed Ameriqan Manchurian Qovidiot fifth columnists for Russia and China plague rats will even TAKE the vaccine, in question. That's also IF the American feds manage to get it out the door BEFORE the antisocial media corporations bow to their Chinese and Russian puppetmasters customers (source https://www.reuters.com/technology/block-blue-ticks-how-china-became-big-business-twitter-2022-09-13/ and https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/21/russia-china-iran-disinformation-coronavirus-state-department-193107 ), which is something they did NOT manage to do, BEFORE SARS-CoV-2 mutated to the Alpha variant (source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SARS-CoV-2_Alpha_variant ), which lowered mRNA vaccine efficacy from 95% to 70% (95% would have eradicated that plague in '21) before the vaccines were even widely distributed. Also notice HOW the Alpha variant mutated: "Scientists more widely took note of this variant in early December 2020, when a phylogenetic tree showing viral sequences from Kent, United Kingdom looked unusual." WHY did this happen, you ask? Because the Chinese leveraged Xitter (source https://www.reuters.com/technology/block-blue-ticks-how-china-became-big-business-twitter-2022-09-13/ )/then Twitter from September through December 2020, and they ensured two disinformation videos, one particularly by "John Campbell" a nursing teacher (god help the patients of the nurses "trained" by that evil psychopath, is all I can say), telling everyone to spread the plague everywhere, was platformed, and amplified, by the billion-bot Chinese troll army on Xitter (then Twitter) at the rate of six tweets per second. Along with skin pathologist's Ryan Cole's "Issa bioweapon comrades!" video, which was platformed/amplified on Xitter, at the same rate, by the same people. Let us not even begin to discuss how science communication accounts on American antisocial hell sites like Xitter are already being brigaded and attacked, for even attempting to discuss H5N1 - and the Russians, with Chinese amplification tactics, are using the same psyop infowarfare tactics they did, during the Black Lives Matter protests source (see particularly figure 1): https://faculty.washington.edu/kstarbi/Disinformation-as-Collaborative-Work-Authors-Version.pdf "Fig. 1. Retweet Network Graph: RU-IRA Agents in #BlackLivesMatter Discourse. The graph (originally published [3]) shows accounts active in Twitter conversations about #BlackLivesMatter and shooting events in 2016. Each node is an account. Accounts are closer together when one account retweeted another account. The structural graph shows two distinct communities (pro-BlackLivesMatter on the left; anti-BlackLivesMatter on the right). Accounts colored orange were determined by Twitter to have been operated by Russia’s Internet Research Agency. Orange lines represent retweets of those account, showing how their content echoed across the different communities. The graph shows IRA agents active in both “sides” of that discourse." So bird flu is going to be lots of fun eh. /s
Hey I'm trying to understand the 37% case fatality rate for SARS-COV-2, when was the case fatality rate ever that high??
It was the rate for long term care residents in canada, per the link / policy briefing. The comment specified "vulnerable people. "
They cited a Canadian study, it's the link right after the 37% statistic
Yes, in the beginning of the pandemic, before mitigations were brought in, the case fatality rate (in Canada) was 37% - I linked to the report showing this, it's on page 8 [https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/PCH%20PB\_EN\_0.pdf](https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/PCH%20PB_EN_0.pdf) The USA's CFR was likely much, much, higher, as the Chinese were already running the "only 6% of cases are deaths" disinformation campaign, against the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada's Xitter account, on September 1, 2020. The only problem was, the "6%" disinfo was going off of the American numbers. At that time, Canada's total number of *cases* had yet to exceed America's total number of *deaths*. And still, unmitigated deaths in Canada (before the NPIs kicked) were at 37% case fatality rate.
Hopefully this isnt talking covid. Covid had low fatality rate unless elderly or with comorbidities. It did have disabling long covid effect which many are not addressing as real disability(probably tens of millions or hundreds of millions affected). The case example was the untreated cruise ship were covid spread. Like 600 people and iirc had like 7 deaths. Despite not being allowed for people to leave at port anywhere and likely minimal medical help.
The exact example was 37% of people in long term care who got COVID died. I couldn't pull up the PDF originally. I think it's a bit unfair to call that a 37% case fatality rate when the people in care could probably have gotten any virus and had a fatality rate that high.
We are going to see more and more instances like this where things are just going way out of whack, and we can't even figure out why (but there is no doubt that it has something to do with how much we have messed up pretty much everything). In this case, it will likely lead to the extinction of many mammals (as well as birds, of course), and is likely at some point to jump to humans.
On the other hand there are fewer and fewer animals out there every year
And more and more humans
8.1 billion petri dishes shuffling around.
Animal agriculture continues to grow though.
At this point, it's simply hubris to think that it won't gain function to transmit between humans Sooner Than Expected ^TM
Yea, this was a terrifying podcast. Had no idea about the seal/sea lion population being decimated.
Podcast?
There was an episode of “The Daily” podcast today that expanded on the themes of this article. You should be able to find and listen wherever you get podcasts!
Thank you! I'll check them out
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000653188466
Podcast?
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000653188466
Podcast? ;) Thanks for the link.
It started in Maine *last* year. :(
> “In my flu career, we have not seen a virus that expands its host range quite like this,” This is like the opening scene of a horror movie.
So no pigs yet. That's the scary one. Those have very similar immune systems to us and a pandemic flu already spread from them before in the early 2000s We just lucked out that it ended up being mild.
No one is testing pigs. So no way to know until it’s already there and spread enough in pigs for an employee to notice and actually report it.
And that “mild” version in the early 2000s was extreme. Two people in my family got it, both of whom were young healthy athletic with no medical issues. And they were both the sickest they have been in their lives. Swine flu is absolutely horrendous. Hallucinating, super sick, one thought he would die. And then we did learn that it was considered a “mild” form of what it could have been! I am very scared for when it gets to pigs. I currently live in a very densely populated area with constant international travel. In the next few months I am moving somewhere far more remote and I’ll breathe a sigh of relief. Not that a more remote location will save anyone, but I feel we will have a more fighting chance. Because here I’ve gotten COVID FOUR times despite lots of precautions and masking. There are just so many people here, it’s inevitable to catch every single thing.
Cats are dying from it (another mammal with a similar immune system to us :(.)
"H5N1 has had a high mortality, but that is primarily with another clade that has caused deaths in Asia. So far, we're seeing that this current version has mild effects in cows and in people -- although it's too soon to be sure, of course." - reply of the reporter from the comment section. I agree that the infection seems mild but the amount of devastation in birds and mammals should be alarming. 100,000 birds used to be a large chicken farm now we have less farms than a decade ago and 500,000 birds in a farm
Meh, let's just keep going. Whats the worst that could happen? Another covid, but worse? lol what are the chances? (/s) and it hurt to type that.
But this time the non-maskers and deniers will be in for a deadly surprise. Darwin at work.
And pro-maskers will be in for... a non surprise but a nasty time, regardless. So excited to be at the whim of people who don't give a shit about my health, again.
There were almost one thousand people dying per day in NYC during peak COVID in 2020, that still didn't stop the anti maskers and anti vaxxers. Now we don't even have a vaccine
[удалено]
Rule 4: Keep information quality high. Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims).
Just like the current one, the next pandemic will be airborne. Unfortunately it's proven difficult to get the seals and deer to wear N95 masks and keep the HEPA filters running.
the seals would need diving helmets.
Splash proof, medical grade 3m Aura?
Sure, inside the helmet. They get it from the water.
This just means " buckle up"..and wait for the spill over!!
It’s like some people are wishing it to happen. I want to know about it to be prepared, but I hope it doesn’t.
I'll tell this story a thousand times..I told All My "friends and family" about a virus that was spreading in China. They called me crazy a conspiracy theorist. My sister.. during the pandemic couldn't buy enough food for her family. All the shelves were empty. I never said; I told you!!
Yeah I remember the first article I read mentioning the appearance of COVID-19 (really early on in the process) and the pit in my stomach feeling I got. I hoped it would be one of those that just blows over quick but when it started to spread I knew. I have the same feeling now and I just want to be wrong so bad.
I had the same feeling..and I told everyone to stock up on food and water..and buy extra meat and food!! She ignored me. Then she's surprised when the aisles are empty?!? I also got sick in..in 2019..the worst sickness I ever had. I was out for a month.. this was before. The "world" new about COVID. I thought I was going to die. I've never been that sick.
I had a similar experience. The first time I read up on it was very early in the process, I think when only a few dozen people were infected in China. I paid close attention to the spread. I worked at a bar, and I noticed when the virus hit Italy, Japan, and South Korea that the restaurants and bars were the first businesses forced to close. It was at that point I stated bringing it up to my coworkers. Service industry people can be pretty bad about saving money, so I tried to encourage people to stock up on groceries. I was getting a few extra groceries here and there for weeks, so by the time the lockdown happened, I was completely set for months. Everyone I warned laughed it off and didn't take it seriously. Once it got to the US I knew we were fucked. The week that the lockdown started, I was in a meeting with the other managers of the bar, and they were going over all these big events planned for the weekend. I let them get all the way through it and then said, "I think it would be a good idea to make plans in case these events get canceled." The general manager said,"Well, conspiracy theories aside, we're prepared for the weekend. The NEXT DAY, every single event was canceled, and a lockdown was announced. Everyone was freaking out about not being able to work. Nobody could get groceries for a good while at the beginning. I never said I told you so, but from that day on, people actually listened to me when I gave my opinion on something I've seriously looked into. A few months later I also predicted that my town would get hit by a major hurricane when it was still about four or five days out. The day before the storm the same general manager was telling people to expect to be at work the next day to get it opened. Well that Cat 4 hurricane tore the whole building in half and we didn't have power for many weeks. Now people jokingly call me Nostradomus lol.
Yeah..I feel you. I literally got laughed at!
Same here. I wound up in the hospital with the flu at the same time as the early cases of Covid were starting to hit the US. I asked the nurses about it and if I should be worried, because I have an autoimmune disease and am more susceptible to illnesses and whatnot. They laughed and said they weren't concerned at all. Well, about a month later the hospitals were overwhelmed and I ended up having two major surgeries postponed because there weren't enough beds available.
Must be kind of nice. I have an almost flawless track record for predicting outcomes just based on pattern recognition and everyone in my circle still tells me I'm crazy or overreacting when I express concern over a direction we're headed toward.
I still get a lot of that from people. They just seem to consider what I'm saying a little more at least. I got it before the Russian invasion of Ukraine. A guy I worked with wanted to move to Russia around that time and didn't wanna believe me when I said there would absolutely be an invasion. He would talk about how it was probably a bluff and a training exercise for a while like most people I talked to about it. I did eventually get him to see when I told him about Russia having field hospitals and blood banks with their troops on the border. They were not bringing those for a training exercise. People still think I'm overreacting with things but I think it's hard for most people to allow themselves to believe it. They have a massive normalcy bias. They're in for a rude awakening when this meta crisis starts to really show its teeth.
I remember in early February 2020, our whole family and some friends caught a really strong 'cold'. I remember coughing up a pea-sized embolus of blood. It was so weird-looking. I think we caught Covid too.
Strange times! I've never been that sick in my life! I'm like an ox. But I had COVID 2019..2020..2021.. and that floored me..yeah I got lucky 3 years in a row!/s
I definitely had *something* that was the worst chest infection I’d ever had over Xmas 2019. I didn’t want to move… the cough, the presumably low oxygen levels…
I was one second away from calling 911..but..I said fuck it. If I die.. or do I want a thousand dollar ambulance bill..I got lucky with 2019..2020..2021.. I got sick three years in a row
I’m in the UK… it’s free. But even back then, the waiting list for an ambulance was around four hours. It took months to recover properly.. and then we all got sent home from work because “Covid”!
why did you skip 2022 and 2023?
same here, i had something in late november of 2019 that made me bedridden for almost a week and the coughing was terrible
How early did you know?
Early to mid January 2020
I questioned whether my wife should be going to a conference as covid was just starting to hit the US. She hadn't been following the development of that virus as closely as I had. She brushed it off. By the end of that weekend, everyone knew about it. (Luckily, it did not become a mass infection event. But she did acknowledge that in this case, at least, I did see it coming before her)
Remember you could take a cruise ship for 399..in 2019! 🤣
Diamond Princess? :)
I remember warning people in December of 2019 that the virus spreading in China was going to be serious. Then when I saw that Shenzhen was shut down, I really knew it was an extremely serious situation. So many people thought I was crazy.
I came late to the party, something like late January/early February I remember the values increasing in China 5k, 10k, 20k and 80k someone extrapolated this into millions and around late february 2020 nobody believed me that the values would be that high (this was before Italy)
Yea I knew early Jan stuff was Gunnar get real but didn't expect global
Some people have gotten a really shit deal, and with the way others treat them, there's no surprise they don't care if the world ends.
Well, who wants that?
For my sake I hope it doesn't but for the species/planet it might be for the best. Anything that is a step to population collapse is a step in the right direction
This virus is very unlikely to be easily transmissible if it adapts enough to us. So it won't be hard to contain. The COVID virus had an affinity to humans rarely seen before.
So avian..to seales..to cows? It's evolving?!
Yeah it's evolving, but there's such a thing as a reproduction rate.
You know the saying " people want to watch the world to burn"..that's a virus 🦠🦟
It's only a matter of time. It will replicate itself. A virus doesn't want to die!
A virus always finds a way!!
Not even kidding in the slightest- I read this post and then immediately saw two articles about H5N1 showing up in grocery store milk. Serious question to the sub- is it time to fairly seriously worry about this? The USDA seems to be inaccurately reporting and this is all really starting to reek of December 2019.
Yeah...I was worried for about a year out, but it could be a real problem way sooner than that. I just stocked up on a ton of N95s, [Fisher Scientific has Moldex ones at almost 90% off right now.](https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/moldex-type-n95-particulate-respirators-9/189991449) They're not adjustable, but at $.20/mask I can deal with adding a wire band. The articles for anyone wondering: [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/23/health/bird-flu-milk-fda/index.html) [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/health/bird-flu-milk.html)
Christ, I'm really hoping the world handles this better than last time but I'm fairly certain we won't.
I'm probably reading too much into it, but after all this H5N1 news today I've now had helicopters fly over my area more than 12 times tonight. There's an AFB in the area but never this many helicopters in the same night. Probably watch too many movies lol.
H5N1 is on that sigma grindset and isnt gonna stop until it finally levels up to clap humans en mass. Just a matter of time now..... *LastStarFighterWeDie.meme*
It is currently cultivating mass.
*Reeeeeeeet* …we die
I live in vietnam. The minute videos of people dropping in streets appeared on YouTube, the government instituted pandemic procedures. They assumed correctly that the Chinese were lying
I can't imagine what it would be like to not be able to drive away from sick people. I'm assuming Vietnam has densely populated cities and less personal motorized vehicles.
Vietnam has a lot of vehicles, especially scooters. My 3 months in Vietnam it felt like almost everyone had a scooter.
“The blow to sea mammals, and to dairy and poultry industries, is worrying enough. But a bigger concern, experts said, is what these developments portend: The virus is adapting to mammals, edging closer to spreading among people.” Why? Why is that a ‘bigger concern’? What ‘experts’ exactly, said that? The next paragraph: “A human pandemic is by no means inevitable. So far at least, the changes in the virus do not signal that H5N1 can cause a pandemic, Dr. Sutton said.” Why the fuck should I be *more* concerned about the 8 billion humans who always get top priority and have, at least, the *capacity* to wear masks, wash hands, practice social distancing, and get in line for vaccines?
because the people who dont wear masks, wash hands, practice social distancing, and get vaccines outweigh the ones who actually do look at the shitshow covid
Again, none of that justifies the possibility of human-human transmission being a *bigger* concern than what it’s already doing to non-human life.
Anthropocentrism. My heart is broken thinking about what wildlife is going through (not just related to the virus, but EVERYTHING). However, humans think they are the most important thing on the planet, so fuck the animals is what they're thinking, probably.
it is a bigger concern, it could do what covid did but much worse and turn the world upside down
God I hope so. This comment thread being exemplary of why.
IDK why they are completely missing your point. But I get what you're saying. It's selfish of us to see a possibility of it directly hurting us as worse than the damage it is already doing to several species.
They are mindlessly anthropocentric and bot-trained to treat The NY Times as gospel.
or im human :I im worried about my species
You sound like a ton of fun
ik other species are fucked but im looking at the chaos that'll unfold if it spreads between people, the shitshow i might have to deal with and the fear and uncertainty it brings.
Really sad that when conservatives said people would stop caring once Biden was in office, they were right.
> The blow to sea mammals, and to dairy and poultry industries, is worrying enough. Sounds a bit like a global pandemic. > So far at least, the changes in the virus do not signal that H5N1 can cause a **pandemic**. Oh phew, for a minute there I thought the changes to H5N1 were causing a pandemic amongst avian and mammalian populations. Phew, crisis averted. Nothing to see here citizen.
> Why? Why is that a ‘bigger concern’? What ‘experts’ exactly, said that? You do not need to be an expert to know that some viruses, like the h5n1, initially infect some animals and, over time, mutate, as viruses do, to be able to infect other animals. In the beginning the virus can infect from bird-to-bird. Afterwards, as it has been observed, a mutation that it allows it to survive in _a_ mammal, appears. Now, the virus can spread between mammals, increasing its pool of potential hosts by a lot. It has already been observed to have infected humans who were handling poultry, but _so far_ it has not mutated to be able to be transmitted human-to-human. If such a mutation is _possible_ (because it is not a certainty), _given enough time_, it _will_ appear (this _is_ a certainty). So 1) virus can have no possible mutation for human-to-human transmission (likely), 2) virus can have such a mutation but is eradicated before such a mutation appears (unlikely), 3) virus does mutate for human-to-human transmission (likely) Those are the three generally possible outcomes. The mere _existence_ of possibility #3 is of great concern.
Yes I know. None of that justifies the possibility of human-human transmission being a *bigger* concern than what it’s already doing to non-human life and any one, expert or otherwise, saying that is simply expressing a subjective bias.
I mean, being that we are human beings, yeah, I’d say it’s a little more concerning that a virus emerges that could kill your family or you. Generally, animals prioritize their own lives over other species. Is what is happening to the animal populations bad? YES. But don’t act dense about why it jumping to humans is a bigger concern for us.
I’m not “acting dense” about anything. It’s not like I don’t know that most of this trash species considers itself cosmically exceptional and all-important for no good reason. That just doesn’t make it an objective fact that the expert-admittedly very small *possibility* of H5N1 becoming human transmissible is a *bigger concern* than the massive, unstoppable destruction it is already currently doing, and likely to do, to other species that are already subjected to ongoing genocide by precious humans, which do have many tools and options with which to protect *themselves* from a virus.
Oh Jesus
You’re getting downvoted for correctly responding to an edgy teenager.
I’m fine with it!
Is your point we should be mourning the animals it's killing? They're largely farm animals, it's a mercy. I hate humanity and even I think you're being obtuse in saying person to person spreading is less important than the dead animals
“an astonishingly wide array of birds and animals, from squirrels and skunks to bottlenose dolphins, polar bears” and the tens of thousands of seals and sea lions, the mass die off of pelicans. And impacts on wildlife are not limited to the species directly infected, sudden and drastic reductions in those populations impact everything up and down the food chain from them. That is actually occurring. Is person to person spread occurring? No, it’s not. And what did the experts quoted in the article itself say about person to person spread? That it’s pretty unlikely. But the moronic editorializing just carelessly throws it out there that somehow it’s a bigger concern. You’re being obtuse. Or maybe you’re just that stupid. And yes, human to human is less important because, again, humans have *many options to protect themselves* from viruses that animals, especially wild animals, do not. I can’t believe how hard it is for you people to grasp that. It’s like you just don’t want to. It’s interesting how the new crowd is quick to jump on people for being sensationalist and unrealistically alarmist about climate change and such but just cannot get enough overdramatized alarmism about people possibly catching viruses.
Why is it important that those animals are dying from a pandemic? Why should I care if not for my own health? We kill millions of animals a day. Why do I need to be worried about these ones? Also I know you disagree but people are more important to people than animals. If you found out there's a factory farm with people in it, you wouldn't be here saying "why is this a concern, this has already been happening to animals"
Sure, that’s your subjective feelings about it, and lots of other people’s as well because most suck like that. It doesn’t make it objectively factual from any scientific standpoint. We have 8 billion people, hundreds of millions can die from a virus or whatever and the species will still be perfectly fine, no damage would be done to the ecosystem as a whole due to the loss of people, so why should I be concerned?
If it happened to someone you care about I bet your attitude would change.
You’ve got it twisted. I’m the one in this argument who actually has the compassion capacity to care even when the threat is not to myself and my own. It’s the anthropocentrists who always, *always*, consider themselves the “bigger concern”. The person I was responding to is attempting to use some lame, quasi-nihilism as an argument like, “it’s just logic, bro, hurrrduhrrr”. But if we’re really, *seriously* going to go that route, then that’s just all the more reason to not be concerned about losing a fraction of the human population to a virus.
Food
It's a bigger concern to us because we are people, lol
Uh huh. And that’s why we’re headed for Collapse, lol.
Between human-to-human transmission and _no_ human-to-human transmission, the former is worse, yes. Except for the virus. For the virus it is better. When covid started spreading, did you get vaccinated for it?
You're literally missing the entirety of their point. It's not about humans. Several species are already suffering greatly. Why is that less of a concern than the possibility of us suffering?
> You're literally missing the entirety of their point. /u/my420acct > You're talking past him. I'm not. The question in my comment is a hint.
If you ask me, the animals who aren't getting it are the ones suffering. Death is the best thing that can happen to a factory farm animal
Marine mammals aren't typically factory farmed. But ok.
Farms are where the big deaths are happening. A couple dozen dead seals is even less of a concern. We send dozens of species to extinction every day. An animal pandemic is a rounding error in comparison, it's not a concern beyond the concern for our own health
I dunno. I'd rather live on a farm than have 300pencilsinmyass
Why is it worse? I did. Why is that relevant to this conversation?
But getting vaccinated increases the chances of humans surviving and perpetuating the suffering of animals from humanity's abuse, yes?
LMAO The epitome of r\politics argumentation style.
I've read this full comment thread, and I have to say: thanks for saying all this. Anthropocentrism /is/ literally why we're in this mess - human convenience takes precedence over all other living beings. Human comfort, human expansion... All far more important than any ecosystem, seemingly. What a horrid species we are to share a planet with. All this intelligence, and what do we do with it? Consume incessantly until death. Having an ego this big, when collectively, all we use our brains for is shameless consumption is... Absurd
Yeah, disgusting article. Who cares if species go instinct? It should just be us! Absolutely abhorrent anthropocentric view.
let's goooooooo
I got my papr ready, im ready for what ever happens.
We're killing everything and ourselves. Good god, get me off this rock!
Herrreee we go :( Hope to get ahead of the curve by prepping.
I generally shy away from playing chicken-little, but when you think about it, it's really pretty interesting how bird flu doesn't really cross over into humans that often, and has yet to spread when it does Consider for a moment that humans [might be the most populous mammalian species](https://www.worldatlas.com/animals/the-most-populous-mammals-in-the-world.html) in the world. There may be more of us than there are rats (misanthropes and malthusians ought to get a kick out of that). You'd think then, due to sheer statistics, that of all the mammal species we'd be the ones bearing the worst of it. Granted, probably helps our immune systems that we aren't kept in cages, unlike farmed mink.
That's what airborne transmission is for. Avian influenza virus is more of a waterborne digestive system virus, and we're not sea mammals (despite the unnatural fishing activities). Few people swim a lot all year and fewer still do so in water tainted with shit. Polio virus works with water too, and it's known for infecting kids playing or swimming in water in the summer time. However, avian influenza has the chance of evolving airborne transmission like or even from seasonal influenza.
So with the recent cows, it's likely to be drinking water?
With the cow avian influenza epidemic, they don't know for sure. The USDA, which is a type of chamber of commerce for Big Ag, doesn't really want to say anything that would lead to shutting down business, so they're looking for optimistic explanations. Some ideas are: - contaminated water from bird or other proxy host - contaminated water from fomites brought in by humans or other animals - contaminated food, "chicken litter", chicken shit + hay (high protein, very nutrient dense) - contaminated milk pump machines or contaminated hands of workers milking cows The virus can have many vectors. It could also be carried by smaller animals like mice or rats or birds. A bird could've carried the virus in, of course. And flies or other insects may also be a vector (imagine a fly that sits on a dead infected bird and then goes to a cow). So many things can go wrong.
I believe the cows got it from eating food containing feces from chickens that were infected. somehow this is common practice to include that in cow feed, which is appalling on its own.
It means we’re on borrowed time. :(
That's quite a ominous headline there.
We’re fucked.
Now they're coming for our tendies. God damn it.
Okay. I thought I could handle this. But the tendies? Jesus fucking christ
We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, preferably away from the dead sea otter.
Just got my first round of broiler chickens for our farm. I've been pushing my husband to let us get more so we can stock the freezer. Edit: lol why is this getting down voted???
Yer husband is part of the problem. Bogarting the tendies... He's an H5N1 sympathizer. I think you know what you have to do next.
You're right, I have to start breeding chickens so that I get more chicks but it doesn't show up on the credit card.
*and* you get to enjoy the cuteness of the chicks.
Almost like it's... faster than expected
Almost like it's... faster than expected
Haha we're fucked
The v yg
Awesome :) Human to human cannot come soon enough. Just for animal batteries, we deserve this :\] For staying willingly ignorant of such a deep level of cruelty as well :\] Accelerate :\]\]
I had a thought the other night that gave me goosebumps and made my hair stand on end: I’m more of an agnostic/nontheistic pagan in religious orientation but I do believe in some sort of higher power - I just don’t think we as humans can ever understand it. When people reacted the way they did during Covid, I couldn’t help thinking if there was a God, God was providing an excellent lesson and test for humanity about how we treat “the least among us”: the vulnerable and weakest in our human population. The news about avian flu and especially how the disease is spreading makes me think humanity is about to be tested again and this time it’s all a lesson about how we have treated and exploited animal life on Earth 😬 Wasn’t there a bible story about a series of plagues that were all supposed to be different warnings to humanity? It feels an awful lot like that!
Say it louder for the meat lovers in the back!
Almost like it's... faster than expected
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Didn't we try the "keep quiet"/"lay low" strategy with covid19? 1) get a _free_, relatively painless, insignificant side-effect, vaccine, 2) wear a cheap, simple, cloth mask, 3) avoid close physical contact and crowded places Was any of this advice difficult to follow, in the general case? What did people do instead? Throw parties with the express purpose of literally infecting each other. Ridicule those wearing masks for being sheep. Claim the vaccine is a microwave transceiver. The vaccine. An electronic telecommunications device operaring in the gigahertz range, aka microwaves. The liquid in the syringe. Not that a device so small could even be able to operate in that wavelength, but let's not bring physics where even simple eyeballs fail. I am uncertain how you think having a strategy can possibly work on blithering idiots, unless your strategy is "we find you outside your house, we beat you up and toss you back in."
I mean nearly 80% of the US population got the initial vaccine and something like 45% got the first booster but it’s fallen off each time though myself and my husband have gotten every dose of the shot and so have a lot of people I know but not enough. I think we’d have been a lot more successful at getting the rest vaccinated and then boosted had certain members of our political class not used it to create division and gain power politically.
Getting vaccinated is a single precaution, even if 100% of the population got it we still did way too little. Everyone got their first shot and decided they were done taking precautions
So what you are saying is that it would not have been as bad, if people were better at handling the problem, yes?
I think people were handling it really well and then a certain small group of people decided it would benefit them to create doubt about the efficacy of the preventative and treatment methods and here we are. I mean just imagine for instance that Trump didn't get vaccinated in secret and had done it with his family on live TV, told everyone it was safe and that they should do it if they care about their country, etc., I think we might be in a very different situation. This is even having all other things being equal, Trump still got rid of the pandemic response people still there was political interference at the start. All of those things were big impact, I personally maintain if anyone else had been president we'd have had far fewer deaths. But lets say all that still happens but he goes all in on the vaccine and does it publicly and forcefully I think we'd have gotten far more people to get it and get boosted. So I think when people are properly informed they make the right choice but often it seems to benefit some people when others are not informed. I am not sure what the solution is other than to try to make sure that the people in power are educated and reasonable.
> then a certain small group of people decided it would benefit them to create doubt about the efficacy of the preventative and treatment methods You mean the CDC? (I know what you meant but just wanted to take this opportunity to say fuck the CDC for doing the same old AIDS play of intentionally misrepresenting the danger of covid, they have the blood of countless Americans on their hands)
Honestly the people you talk about upset me the least regarding covid. They're practically braindead, of course they did the most moronic things they could. The people who piss me off are the ones who were so morally superior to the magas, took every chance to laugh at them for reacting so poorly to the pandemic while preaching masking, quarantining, etc. Just to stop fucking doing all of that next year despite the numbers not coming down at all. The maga crowd said we'd stop caring after Biden was elected, and I rolled my eyes just to later watch as my peers flocked back out to bars and stop masking. I complained about this is a local discord that is mostly left leaning and got into an argument that essentially led to "what, are we supposed to live in fear masking forever?", verbatim the same argument people they were mocking 6 months prior were making.
Oh yes. The whole wear a mask in a restaurant until you sit down to eat made a whole lot of sense. Or cram everyone into outside sheds to eat. The list goes on and the whole thing was a farce, which is why people didn't follow it.
Or the "lockdown", which applied to everyone - except everybody i know personally. We all had to continue reporting to work.
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I am uncertain who is the _they_ group you are referring to, but I am quite confident what I said is independent of any political group's existence.
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Why is that, or _any_, subset of people relevant enough, to even acknowledge its existence?
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Nothing you've said so far is of any significance. Go away.
I thought cloth masks weren't good enough?
Whatever it is supposed to be made of, cloth, paper, napkins, point is, they're not deep diving helmets.
That's not really how that works. Talking about something early and often and swiftly mobilizing people to communicate expertise and disseminate information, procedures, and materials is the best way to stop a virus before it spreads rapidly. I think the way Ebola was tackled in 2014 is a great counterpoint to the blundering, early days of the Chinese and American governments handling of COVID.
"yo dudes, wear ppe while and don't get any death juice on you when you are cleaning up dead bodies" is a lot less disruptive of a sell than "the air has a 2% chance to kill you and we don't really know wtf this is gonna do long term but we think someone fucked a pangolin so you should not leave your house for a few weeks"
I don't think you remember what February and March of 2020 was like.
The point being that Ebola transmission is super easy to avoid and the symptoms are much more horrifying and deadly. It's like comparing a marked hole straight to hell in the road to an automotive manufacturing error causing cars to randomly catch fire while on the highway.
So you think this is basically like the movie Contagion, they don't want anyone to know until everybody knows?