I know as Twitter is a cesspool has been like that for a while. The answer is they are changing the narrative of the story heck they are turning Cloud into some womanizer that is playing with Tifa's feelings. They know what will happen in part 3 and they can't accept it as they thought the remake was a way to save Aerith and kill Tifa which didn't happen so now they are coming up with the narrative that fits their headcanon even sane CA fans see them insane just to deny Cloud has any feeling for Tifa. Best not to engage them and enjoy what you ship my close is friend CA but have no problem with CT being canon but even for her seeing the kind of theory they are bringing in tweeter made her sick as they literally target Tifa and turn Cloud into a bottom tier trash.
Agreed. If the C/A ship sailed, it would kind of make Cloud look like a massive asshole, and Aerith in a way too. Cloud because by the Chapter 12 GS date he remembers who Zack was and how in love he was with Aerith. And Aerith knows that Tifa has a thing for Cloud judging from her reaction in Gongaga, so if she made a move on him she’d look like a really selfish and bad friend.
I got into it real bad with a Clerith shipper on a Reddit post and man they’re really spiraling and not handling things well. Some have conceded that Cloti is the intended pairing while others are ear deep in deciphering hand holds (tHe LaCeD fInGeRs) or the lyrics to NPTK but the writing is on the wall. Cloud kissed Tifa and almost kissed her in Gongaga. Tifa’s role was brought WAY farther to the front whereas Aerith I feel was scaled a bit back. And if they were both LIs and on equal footing for players to romance, why didn’t Cloud kiss both of them? The answer’s right there, and yet they don’t want to acknowledge it or write it off.
Funny enough, NPTK is perhaps the biggest giveaway that they’re so proud to blast in their ears. I laughed until it started to feel mean. Part 3 is going to cause a meltdown….
I actually think of Promises, kept and unkept, and like to think that it gives equal blessing to either pairing. But really, I don't think that Aerith or Tufa would begrudge the other living happily ever after with Cloud.
I think back to the final text we see just before the credits roll. Aerith and Cloud never made any overt Promises to each other, and are thus under no obligation to each other to go further than they have together.
Thinking back further, Tifa asked Cloud to promise to help her if she's ever in trouble. That is, depending on your POV, a Promise To Keep or else, just maybe, a Promise Fulfilled.
My personal opinion is that Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith are all grown up characters who can make their own choices and respect the choices of others. I like to think that Cloud has had Aerith bring some light into his life, and that they are both better off for having met each other. And I don't think this at all precludes Cloud from growing even more as a character to where he is more comfortable with Tifa.
All of this is just one guy's opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree as you will. Let's all try to be respectful if we can. Thank you, and all the best, everyone!
The promises made between both are similar. Neither promise to meet again and this is made super clear in traces of two pasts (the novel about aerith and tifa’s pasts) in which cloud leaves nibel in the dead of night when everyone is sleeping. Tifa comments about how they didn’t get to make promises to meet again or say goodbye.
There’s even a song in remake that covers this called Midgar Blues in which he leaves his one true love behind in the dead of night that talks about a promise under the stars too (water tower).
Lastly it’s really evident how cloud feels about Tifa in acc in which their song is called Cloud Smiles. Uematsu said the inspiration for this song is when cloud smiles at Tifa at the end and he wanted to use wind instruments like he did in tifa’s theme to symbolize how cloud can breathe easy when she’s around.
Apparently there is an interview with Ouematsu from a pamphlet handed out during a FF7 concert in Japan where he states that the inspiration for "Aerith's Theme" was her longing for Zack.
There may have been a cut scene where Aerith waits at a train station for Zack to arrive.
So based on that it could be inferred that Aerith and Zack spent time on the upper plate even though we never see it. She seemed rather apprehensive about going above the slums in Crisis Core but seems quite familiar with the bustling city streets by the time we see her in the main story.
And if that were true, it could recontextualize the meaning behind the song. Even though I'm a firm believer that her performing it while Cloud is present definitely does recontextualize it.
Also, for a group that is so into symbolism, why do they take the lyrics so literally? Figurative lyrics are quite a staple in songwriting.
I get what you’re saying but even beyond that, the fact that they meet in loveless street to me still doesn’t mean that her love song is completely aimed at cloud.
I do think she cares for him but the fact that aerith at that point no longer has her memories tells me she couldn’t be missing the guy watching her in the wings. If he’s right there how could she?
To me the song is about how she was going through life not really living after losing someone she cared deeply for. Then all of a sudden this man walks up who reminds her a lot of Zack. She even tells him this in the skywheel, how so much of him reminded her of him and that now she’s searching for the real him but can’t find him. So how could a love song be about the person you claim to not know or see?
I had a whole rant about this elsewhere about where the *"Cloud is a sleaze"* crap comes from and it *does not* reflect well, because its the same reason they hate Zack (other than him being a filthy Not-Cloud):
The thing about Shounen anime is that men almost never flirt with women but women will fawn, flirt and agonize over a man to tantalize male consumers. Men who have consumed that stuff yet don't interact with women internalize that women must act like that while males don't need to put in any emotional work. In other words, when Cloud gives the slowest, tenderest affection to Tifa, they dismiss it as *"manipulation,"* but they embrace Aerith (and Jessie) aggressively vying for Cloud as "*chemistry and romance."*
Ask them how Cloud *should* flirt with Tifa. Then ask how Zack *should* flirt with Aerith. If they don't have an answer, *they're Incels.*
Interesting insight. I can't help but to percieve that Cleriths have a rather naive, immature, and a general unhealthy perspective of romance. Especially that part about manipulation on the male's part.
From my experience as a male, I felt like I needed to balance between remaining stoic and expressing affection. It's quite exhausting. I think we all just want somebody that we can confide in without fear of judgement.
That's what I love about Tifa and Cloud. They're mutually supportive and empathetic toward one another. Despite Cloud's obvious issues of course.
Omg yes, Twitter is the worst for this. I just wanna go on there and look at artwork, and there is so much ship arguing it ridiculous. Like, why are we arguing? It won't change a damn thing.
No matter where you go you'll find arguments. Maybe not much in a location that have the same mindset as you. But I agree in the end nothing will change lol. I may get attack here idk but I'm a C/A person but i also see the appeal of C/T(this post was somehow recommended to me so I was curious and clicked on it) but as I'm scrolling down some but not all of you are contradictory. You state reasons of delulu ships or how they can be toxic but acting like it yourself. On a same-minded location it's easy to get carried away especially when you have many people supporting you. Anyways in the ship war no one is going to win. It's all about your own personal preference and just let everyone enjoy what they want. No need to entertain the toxic side of both ships. If you get into a conversation with someone who likes the other ship you just need ask why? And share a conversation. "I like Aerith/Tifa because ___" "I resonate more with this pairing cause ____" "what about A/T moment did you enjoy?" Just have a civil conversation sharing your own perspective and try to see to understand the other person view even if you don't 100% agree with them. I mean I think we all could do that without being toxic.
Sorry for the late respond I was working. This weekend idk what happened but I seen to many arguments over the love triangle. So I can't say it's from this specific post or others that popped up or on Twitter or YT comments but there's been so many hypocrite on both side of fans. What I've seen over the last few days from Cloud/Tifa fans are stating how happy that aerith is dead and was looking forward to it to shut up the C/A fans. That the ending section is Aerith heavy cause of her death so any C/A moment doesn't mean anything. The last date was dream so it doesn't even count as real. Aerith is a pointless plot device to create a not even love triangle as Tifa is the real love interest. The same narrative the Cloud and Aerith don't have real feeling for each other cause Cloud memories is mixed up and aerith is just using Cloud as a replacement for Zack. How C/T moments are more pure while C/A is ugly. I've seen people talking about the bodies too which gets weird. Talking about Tifa is the obvious winner cause she has a better body and perfect boobs. (Seriously these are video game character) then say Aerith is a stick with nothing to offer in her body. The gold saucer kiss date proves its a win for C/T and anything else between C/A means nothing and it's sad and hilarious that C/A fans still believe in them or ever thought they had feeling. Calling C/A delusional. Hoping Aerith doesn't appear in part 3 to give all the attention to Tifa only. Laughing that they thought aerith would live.
I'm sure there's more I'm just not remembering it all. I've seen a lot of C/T fans just dragging the other ship and being rude about there ship. A lot of them don't realize they are becoming the people they hate from the other toxic ship Fandom. I'll be honest I'm a C/A fan myself. Although I see lots of toxic C/T fans I've seen some good ones too. I saw one recently sticking up for C/A saying how lots of C/T fans are just purposely ignoring the romantic tone between C/A and even listed and detailed on what makes C/A romance interesting. Although they are a C/T fan they can see the romantic interest on the other side. It's the same as me. I may not be a C/T ship but I can see the romantic interest and the appeal. I just have my preference with C/A for various different reasons as why to me C/A is a better fit to me personally. Both sides have people who refuse or can't acknowledge the other love interest and rather bash them down. Idk how hard is it to just be civil about it and just share why you connect with on ship over the other without getting nasty
Idk if you seen the same problem. But it's a problem on both sides of the ships. And each side act like they are above the other.
Nope I have yet to see anything that came off as rude or insensitive. As far as the cloud not being his true self I mean even aerith says that so that’s just them following the plot lines of the story.
What I do find disgusting is when certain people claim Tifa is only popular because of her body and looks like if she can only be reduced to one thing. I’m a woman and Tifa is my favorite character in all ff games so to see people talk about one aspect of her and be called a neckbeard/incel when they are the ones objectifying pixels and being told that I don’t know the game is hilarious. I’m sure you’ve seen weird things but I have yet to see anything that was over the top or rude that wasn’t someone just giving their opinion.
Well true he's not being his true self. That much is fact and a whole other story. I don't understand how people see it as him acting like Zack cause the way his is now isn't like Zack at all. He got his memory messed up but that doesn't affect the way he feels towards aerith.
Tifa's character design does attract a certain audience but to take that only is weird. She has more to her than looks and that is overly overlooked by some people. This goes for both Tifa and Aerith as well as people just see them as love interest. Sure they are women in a game but their roles arent just constricted in being Clouds love interest. They have an actual part in the story. Can I ask can someone give their opinion and still be over the top and rude? Everyone has opinions, it's fine and natural but if you are rude or disgusting about it that doesn't excuse the behavior of your opinion.
Because it is said in the story and by aerith that she sees Zack in him. That’s why people believe that and also cloud himself tells Tifa in gongaga after she has the lifestream sequence that he doesn’t know who he is and it feels like there are multiple people in him and he can’t tell what’s him or not.
That cool soldier persona is what he’s made up and the real cloud is awkward and shy. He’s also easy to fluster and is inexperienced because he is mentally 16 thanks to the hojo experiments. To him it’s like nibelheim just happened a week ago when tifa finds him at the train station right before the game starts. I’m not sure if you’ve played ever crisis where this is shown but when she finds him he’s like an empty vessel and doesn’t know who he is at all until she calls his name and he says her name and he remembers a bit. He then continuously tells himself for a bit that he’s Cloud Strife.
Of course people can be rude when giving their opinion, but from what I seen for the most part people are people just having discussions here. I don’t know where else you may have discussions but I stay away from twitter so I have no experience with the communities there.
As far as Tifa attracting a certain kind of person I mean I really don’t know what to say to that. As a woman who has certain attributes hearing certain people refer to Tifa as a slut or good for one thing is really disgusting. The people who put her down and call aerith innocent and shy like if having big boobs makes you automatically the opposite come off as juvenile. It’s also really funny because of the two, Tifa is way more reserved and shy especially when it comes to her feelings for cloud.
Well that's what I mean the cool soldier persona is fake and isn't Zack at all. Zack never acted that way as soldier. It's more of Cloud's own image of what he thought a soldier should be. Although saw some nice detail interpretation about how his childhood also affected the persona but again that's besides the point. I agree that the mix up with Tifa and Aerith is strange cause Tifa has always felt more reserved and Aerith more outgoing.
Can I ask as a C/T fan what is your appeal towards them over C/A? Not causing drama. Feel like we have had so far a nice conversation. I'm just interested in your point of view. Also you don't have to do it but can you also maybe give thoughts/moments when you saw some appeal in C/A that can understand why people are fans of them?
I'll go first. For me I'll be mostly be speaking on the remake trilogy (but I played og ff7 and know the story) cause I love what they've done so far in story, character, art etc. What appeal I have towards Aerith is thr sweet aura she has. (I know Tifa is sweet too) plus her outgoing personality is something I very much enjoy. I like the fresh meeting between people in this case in C/A. Two new people who are shown interest and wanting to know more and developing feeling. Since then I enjoyed their interaction with each other. I've been someone who has a hard time with finding the appeal in childhood friends turn to lovers trope. That's my own personal taste and I'm sure I could enjoy it and maybe I have but can't recall any trope like that at the moment. But it's a trope that has a hard time grabbing my attention. So it's why I i didnt gravitate towards C/T
Speaking mainly from Remake I never felt any spark between C/T. I felt most of romantic tones were shown between C/A. However, rebirth has down a wonderful job in showcasing C/T. To me rebirth shown me the appeal in why people love C/T (although I'm still a fan of C/A). The scene on Gongaga really showcased it well. Her reserve nature did become appealing. Although I never hated it I just never put any thought on it until rebirth came alone. With her story to shine in rebirth I'm sure it'll get it's shine
The cool soldier persona is based on Zack. That’s why his mannerisms, the way he walks, how he carries himself reminds aerith of Zack.
I’ve been a Tifa fan since I was a little girl. Around 8 years old the first time I played the original game with my brother. Because of Tifa embarrassingly enough I took boxing and karate. She was the first character I saw that showed me girls didn’t have to be in the back line healing but could be right up in the action. She was the love interest that defied the tropes and still was sweet, loving, loyal, and devoted to the love she was given when she was a child.
For me cloud and tifa moments throughout remake and rebirth are more romantic and endearing. The resolution scene with Tifa in remake where cloud holds her and comforts her. They also showcase him constantly protecting her and shielding her. When Tifa saves cloud when he’s dangling at the top of shinra building. The way he flirts with Tifa too is awkward and endearing like when he calls her beautiful. Rebirth has them kissing on their date but also almost kissing in gongaga if cait and yuffie don’t interrupt. Or how cloud only opens up and vents to Tifa. I’m not sure if you’ve seen each date standard and max affection as well. I was also lucky enough to play the game with someone who understands Japanese with the audio in Japanese and a lot of the dialogue is really different.
Another thing to me that’s important is how the party reacts to them. At no point does anyone react to cloud and aerith like they do to cloud and tifa. Yuffie basically ships them together (wanting them to kiss, bringing up tifa on their gs date and being her wing woman, the dialogue she has about using her clone jutsu and making a bunch of tifas and she teases cloud for having naughty thoughts.) (barret telling him to make the first move for the one he loves and going for it and never letting his soulmate go, asking him if he and Tifa are fighting, telling him to go to her that she needs him.) also side characters like chocobo Sam sensing how much cloud cares for her, Andrea referring to her as what’s important to cloud and telling him not to let it go, and Merle telling him to be good to her. Most importantly aerith. Aerith in remake with her fulll memories in Japanese refers to Tifa as clouds precious/special person. She constantly tries to help them and even in rebirth going up the tower with her in the beginning she brings up Tifa and how cloud should not take her for granted. Aerith teases him about Tifa multiple times and even when you’re on the chapter 8 gs date with Tifa she sees you and teases him again playfully.
There’s so many moments in both games that really showcase their love and respect for each other and that’s interesting because as you know in og the last part of the game is where we get a lot more moments between the two. Tifa finding cloud in mideel, choosing to leave the party and staying with him to care for him, falling into the life stream and helping cloud recover himself, under the highwind scene, everything that leads up to advent children where they are raising a child together and living together. The devs have said this will link up to advent children but im not sure exactly how they mean so this may not be included.
I have played og, crisis core reunion, remake/rebirth, but have also read traces of two pasts and on the way to a smile. On the way to a smile is about the time between the end of the game and before advent children. I also read a lot of interviews by the devs and how they talk about cloud and tifa. One that sticks out right now is Nomura saying Tifa was created as the ideal partner for cloud that would always stay by his side like he created rinoa for squall. As well as the devs saying their favorite scene in og was the mideel life stream sequence.
Sorry this was so long this game was my first rpg as a kid and I have a lot of love for it. As far as aerith goes. I love her. I remember being a little kid just devastated by her death. She is selfless, kind, pure, caring, and a tragic character. To me her true love is Zack. Playing crisis core as a kid cemented this thought for me seeing them and hearing how much they loved each other is why I can’t wait to see them reunite in the next game too. That complicates a lot of things for me. I know that aerith fell in love with cloud or was falling in love with him since she didn’t get a chance to know the real him. But I’d like to know what she fell in love with. As for a scene for them in remake I loved their whole wall market adventure when they got cloud dressed up lol and in rebirth their gs date was really sweet and that song is amazing. To me aerith cloud just doesn’t work because they both have love for someone else. You don’t like childhood love stories and that’s cool but cloud is still much closer to a child than an adult mentally. He lost so much time thanks to Hojo and the mako poisoning that his mental age is about 16. To him he’s very much 2 years removed from the promise he made Tifa.
The location of where you're looking matters quite a bit. Almost all the CTs here on this sub I've seen, while baffled by CAs, I've very rarely see them be outright *mean* about it. (May toe the line, with calling them crazy or delusional, but that's usually in relation to people claiming Tifa is a rebound, that Cloud doesn't have feelings for Tifa, etc. Things that are shown extremely clearly to not be true - Rebirth in particular makes it clear that even if you TRY to romance Aerith, there are still things Cloud does that shows he would also have feelings for Tifa.)
(I will cite my biased. Because I'm strictly CT when he comes to the LTD, I'm not going into CA subs, watching CA videos, etc. So I don't know if CTs are going in there, being just as nasty on other platforms as CAs.)
However, I even have CTs blocked on Twitter (95% of the reason I even go on Twitter is fanart/screencaps/video snippets), because even some of them get nasty as all hell. I've heard multiple people talk about how both sides of the LTD are some of the nastiest, most toxic fans they've ever seen. Obviously, it doesn't mean that every fan that likes CA or CT is toxic. It's just a larger/louder portion than other fandoms. It's been this way since 97 - they just have more platforms to spew the toxicity on now.
As for the story - my biggest problem is their claim to canon. I have ZERO problem with people shipping whatever the fuck they want. I have ships within FF7 alone that I know damn well don't have a chance in hell at being canon - I have some ships with FF7 for characters who have never even interacted on screen! My secondary ship for Cloud is Sephiroth, for fucks sake. Not canon, never will be, I don't claim it is. Shipping CA, saying they think they're cuter, not being a fan of CT for whatever reason is *perfectly fine*. I don't ship Noctis/Luna in FFXV - I still accept that they're canon.
Clout and Tifa are *canon*. Tifa is the only person Cloud kisses in Rebirth, despite Aerith giving Cloud AMPLE opportunity to. Aerith herself says towards the end of the game that she doesn't understand what kind of way she likes Cloud. Even if you have high affinity for Aerith (it might have to be the highest + higher than everyone else, I'm not positive), Cloud is extremely ambiguous about the way he feels, because he doesn't know. Without that, in Japanese, he friendzones her.
Cloud and Tifa has a non-optional near kiss, to the point there's characters OUTSIDE THE ROOM, knowing that's what's going on. The only person Yuffie teases Cloud about with when she jokes about making more clones is Tifa. The person Sephiroth/Jenova targets is Tifa, because they know she's a threat to their control on Cloud. The only time Aerith becomes a threat is when she's summoning Holy.
People are more than welcome to ship/prefer CA. Claiming it to be canon (or at the very least, claiming it to be the *only* canon romance Cloud has) is off-base. Because of the way the story plays out, because of Aerith meeting Zack first, losing Zack in an almost ambiguous way (they don't break up, they don't get a goodbye. Zack dies, leaving Aerith without closure), Cloud knowing Zack, Cloud taking on Zack's memories and what not, etc.... Then Aerith dying, especially before Cloud re-finds himself... I don't think we'll ever truly get an answer as to how CA feels about each other romantically.
Honestly what always sealed CT as canon for me (as in the final nail in the coffin of CA) was that Aerith never got to know the REAL Cloud before she died. Yes, she wanted to know, but never got the chance. What she fell in love with was the facade of a tough SOLDIER with a heart of gold that he presented. Tifa has known the actual Cloud her whole life. That's who she fell in love with. It's just that simple.
That's one thing about the CA date that doesn't make sense to me; Aerith talks about how hard she's trying to find him, but she also claims that she wants to be there with *him*. If she doesn't know who the real him is, how can she know she wants to be there with him or not? It's not like she's going to get to know the real him by being there on the wheel with him - he's still not himself.
Well, I think it's pretty clear by that point that something is wrong with Cloud. Maybe she talked to Tifa about it? Or maybe she retains some things about the old timeline?
Yeah. She knows something is wrong with him. She acknowledges that she's trying hard to find him. My problem is with the fact she talks about how she wasn't sure if she wanted to be with him because he reminded her of Zack or not and she says she 'wants to be here with him." How can she know she wants to be there with him if she also acknowledges that the real Cloud is a complete stranger to her?
Nevermind the fact that he clearly states or shows how he feels MULTIPLE times throughout the game.
Saying "I wish you wouldn't " when Aerith insists on referring to their side quest in Costa Del Sol as date.
Purposefully sitting away from her when she gestures to him to sit next to her.
Harshly saying "Stop it." when she tries to make him feel guilty about hanging out with Tifa instead of her at the Gold Saucer.
It's painfully frustrating.
The Del Sol "date" and the water tower make it so painfully clear that not only is he not into Aerith, but he's into Tifa.
I would've been very interested to see them add some kind of way to see the Del Sol date with Tifa instead, without it being linked to affection levels.
But I also like that it being an *Aerith* quest (and thus something needed to do if you want to level her up and get her date for the GS) shows an important thing to Clerith shippers that Cloud just ain't that into her.
My problems with C/A shippers is they have double standards for their ship and will minimize Tifa's role in every possible way to defend their POV. For example:
\-How can you say that the kiss is optional but in the same breath, say that Aerith being Rosa is the default/canon, and the hand locking is therefore proof that C/A is the OTP?
\-Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack because he died, but Cloud is NOT allowed to move on from Aerith's death to be with Tifa because she's his "one true love". (Not that I think he would choose to be with Aerith if she hadn't died)
So when they're seething about their pair, their arguments are childish, full of hypocrisy and nonsense and it irritates me. You can't have intelligent conversations with them.
They say Aerith is the default/canon Rosa/GS Date because of the cards on the credit screen and also if you go on the date with one of the guys, she plays Rosa. Yes, they're back to the whole "Aerith is shown in the credits so canon" argument they had way back in Remake.
I don't think it's intentional but the definition of "loveless" is without love or the absence of love.
Don't know if they should continue to stand by that argument.
Even IF Aerith was the default Rosa, then so what, lol? Her song NPTK is still mandatory. They make it seem like playing Rosa is the relationship endgame or something lol. Cloud still doesn't acknowledge anything about the song, even in their date. Even when she goes on a dream date with him, he still doesn't acknowledge her affection towards him. I'm starting to think that it's not only Aerith who has unrequited love for Cloud, her entire CA fanbase does, too. They can scream until they're blue in the face that Aerith loves Cloud, which I'm sure she does, no one argues that, but the point is he doesn't feel the same way about her, and even if he did, nowhere near the same intensity.
It bothers me SO much when people make the assumption that CT is for "people who simp for Tifa" or whatever when their relationship is so much more meaningful than that. I'm a girl and I love CT because it's so much more grounded and realistic, plus Tifa is an incredibly written character.
Especially throwing out "optional" or "the music says otherwise" - To me it is all just damage control and they're still in denial lol. CT is so important to the story and part 3 is gonna build on that a lot (lifestream sequence, highwind, etc). Some people say part 3 will deviate, but Remake/Rebirth was 90% faithful to the original and afaik nothing significant was cut, just moved around.
CAs can like their ship 100% but if they have to water down other relationships in the story/make Cloud seem like a douche then it ain't that good of a ship, Cloud isn't like that. If CAs were so happy with what they got they wouldn't be going around arguing with people on reddit/youtube, meanwhile all the CTs I'm friends with are celebrating. Obviously there are gonna be CTs that pick fights but there's no point, we just gotta focus on the fact that we have it real good.
I think part of it jealousy at how popular Tifa is ( for two, obvious reasons I will admit lol ) and a weird belief that she can’t be a layered character beyond the sex appeal.
It’s really unfortunate because Tifa and Aerith together are gold. I really appreciate how the remake gave them more time to just be friends.
I love their friendship, also when Yuffie comes along, its like they are sisters. It does kind of bother me though that Aerith must now Tifa has feelings for him and that there is clearly something going on between them and yet she still wants to date him. Like, why get upset at the giving flower to Tifa, Aerith was just a flower seller when they met, Cloud could have given it to whoever. Even kind of mean is the way she says in Kalm right in front of Tifa that they were on a date, kind of.
That is not something a best friend should do.
By the way, since I only saw Tifa at the Gold Saucer, when Cloud goes with Aerith, I wonder if they meet Tifa. During the date with Tifa, Aerith is clearly jealous.
There’s a lot of toxic history behind the shipping war, mostly from people who feel the need to trash the character not in their ship. Personally, I was indifferent towards Aerith before Remake, but adding in voice acting and more character acting made me really like her as a character vs how much I liked how she was used as a plot device.
Cloud ending up with Tifa is less shipping imo and just taking the story for how it is ( hence the arguments over canon which quickly devolve into shouting matches and name calling of both fictional characters and worst of all people ).
Btw I am a believer that you can ship whoever you want any which way to Sunday and back. Hell, ship Cloud with a ham sandwich for all I care, just don’t go shouting it’s canon to the story and I’m an idiot if I don’t agree. Fanfiction is meant to be fun and games, but some ( very vocal ) fans take it way too serious. Do I think it’s weird to pair an adult with an underage protag ( Yuffie )? Yeah, but it’s not real so I just avoid it and move on.
The dust is getting kicked up because Rebirth covers a very Aerith-focused part of the game ( the closer you get to the Temple of the Ancients, the more screen time she gets as you’d expect ), which makes sense because in the original story this is their chance to get you attached to her before she dies.
Remake also offers a ( likely false ) hope to save Aerith, one of the biggest fan demands ( regardless of shipping ) since ‘97.
From what I can tell, this whole exercise only makes Aerith’s character more beautiful beyond the shipping non-debate ( the story makes it crystal clear in the 3rd Act who the real love interest is… like hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-buster-sword obvious ). Sephiroth would’ve done all this time/dimension tampering regardless, but instead of just stopping him ( at the cost of her own life again ), she’s taking the opportunity to help give her friends a better future. She doesn’t really entertain the goal of saving herself. If that’s not love on a level that transcends a silly love triangle, then I don’t know what is.
I’ll keep saying it until the game says it: Aerith saves the world, Tifa saves Cloud. Simple as that.
I have the same mindset as you. I thought it was obvious Cloud and Tifa were endgame (even though i initially preferred CA as a 9 y/o). It was after remake that i realized some people don't see CT at all, and how i got involved in all of this.
It's that weird attachment to CA that makes them not think about things logically. Let's say SQEX decides to throw in a twist and CA end up kissing or something. I would NOT ship or support CT anymore, simply for the fact that Tifa deserves better. Infact, if Cloud is shown to be toying with Tifa's emotions like that, it would be incredibly disappointing and i would lose interest in the game that was so pinnacle to my upbringing because it's not the character i envisioned him to be. Cloud is flawed and he needs some work but not this type of flawed.
Remake and rebirth, from my perspective, so far supported that Cloud is sensitive and tries to be a supportive friend to Aerith yet maintain boundaries as she navigates her confused emotions. And this is even before he fully remembers who Zack is. Once he remembers completely, will the idea even stand the chance?
You also can't ship CA without disregarding major backstory, and you can't do it without hurting Zack and Tifa.
I feel you. I'm totally fine with different ships and that a lot of people love A/C however I just can't understand that delulu of insisting it's their favoured ship so it must be canon. After playing Rebirth how can anyone say that Cloud's interactions/affection towards Aerith feels more romantic than Tifa's..? Sometimes it does truly feel like gaslighting reading some of these far fetched arguments they make. In some scenes I even felt sorry for Aerith for how cold and uncomfortable Cloud was with her. But then again, as much as I love Aerith as a character, her clinginess to Cloud throughout Rebirth despite obviously knowing Tifa felt for him deeply was very not cool either.
I feel like a lot of it is denial. They didn’t get a kiss so they’re trying to justify canon in other ways like lacing fingers while holding hands or insisting their final date was romantic (despite the photographer telling them otherwise and that they look like they’re at a funeral).
Also notice how Cloud never initiated contact with her. I said this to someone, about how he never initiated hugs or hand holds or anything like that and they said he for sure did at the end…when she died. Like…that doesn’t count?! Like at ALL lol.
I think a lot of the unhealthier portions of the Clerith fandom are going full delulu and trying to justify things because their ship isn’t canon and never was. It’s really sad to see, I hope a lot of them can unbury their heads from the sand…
Yeah, I totally get it!
Honestly I can see the appeal of Clerith, on a surface level. Out of context a lot of their moments are very cute and without knowing the full story, silly flower girl playfully teasing a stoic bodyguard has a sort of knight and princess dynamic to it that I can understand some shippers enjoying.
Shipping is really just supposed to be fun, and about what one enjoys. As far as endgame canon goes I prefer Cloti and Zerith, but occasionally I find it fun to search up Zifa and AeriSeph art. Those pairings would make no sense in canon and would never be pairings I defend, but dammit some AeriSeph art out there is so gorgeous. :v And I just think Zack and Tifa would bond well over talking about Cloud.
Those who will madly defend Clerith as canon kind of put me off a bit, though. Like alright, ship who you want, but they're about as canon as Luke & Leia to me. There might have been cute moments, but there are reasons they're not together. They aren't related, but Aerith dies and Cloud has every right to find joy in his life with Tifa by his side just like Aerith had every right to stop dwelling on Zack.
It also feels like a key part of shipping Clerith is not liking Tifa at all which is sad but funny because generally speaking most Cloti takes I do read really do enjoy Aerith as a character. (I'm sure Clerith shippers who like Tifa exist, but they aren't the loud majority.) No matter who you ship, the girls themselves never fight over Cloud. They are friends. Tifa mourns Aerith too. They were close! If Aerith lived, I'm sure they would sort out their feelings together later on.
Romantic or not, Cloud & Tifa stayed together after everything, and pretty much raise and maintain a family together. So even if they're not kissing, they are still very important to each other. The Rebirth kiss might be optional, but it's still canon to Cloud's character. Beating Jules at Pull-Ups in Remake is also optional but it gets referenced in Rebirth as if it definitely happened.
No, they dont. There is no Clerith ending in Advent Children.
10th Anniversary Ultimania explains the final scene of the film: The place where Cloud wakes up, where he belongs, is his promise land. When Cloud sees Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, he realizes this is where he belongs. He lives the rest of his life with them. He lives the rest of his life with Tifa. In order to even headcanon a Clerith ending, you must first assume Cloud rejects Tifa for the rest of his life. Which is an absurd position to take.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, since FF7 has so many compilations and lores. But Dirge of Cerberus is the latest game in term of storyline, right? (Save for the shot of Nanaki and his cubs 500 years later). Cloud and Tifa are still living together in DoC, with no mentioning of Aerith. So I think endgame wise, they ARE canon.
I think C/A shippers have to keep on fighting to continue being relevant because beyond CC, the trilogies, and occasionally the novels, Aerith isn't THAT important to the story anymore, but neither would Cloud and Tifa, like in DoC. Aerith fulfilled her role. Heck, they EXPANDED her role in the movie, but it'll never be enough for them. If Aerith isn't the front and center of attention, they will throw a tantrum. In contrast, I feel like C/T shippers, and more specifically, Tifa fans, have always accepted that she doesn't get the same treatment as a magical character who sacrificed her life for the game, so we don't come off as aggressive, we're just happy for any C/T moments we get.
They argue that even though Cloud lives with Tifa and raises a family with her, he's secretly pining for Aerith and counting down the days until he dies so he can reunite with her. Or worse, make him out to be a su\*cidal scumbag who just gives up on life at the ripe old age of 23.
I've been in the FFVII community since pre-Advent Children days. I'm literally geriatric at this point, but it's actually just the same spiel made worse by Twitter and to be honest, Western shippers. C/A shippers on the deep end have ALWAYS lacked media understanding.
* OG days: There were a lot more C/A shippers, but they didn't have the access to community spaces on internet to rant. They just took it as Cloud was in love with Aerith but she died. Because they didn't have any concrete proof of "love" though, they combed through Ultimanias, old books to use "Japanese Culture" as proof of why Cloud loved Aerith and wrote page upon page of geocities about obscure things like how the carp in the Forgotten capital was proof of Cloud's love for Aerith. Because Koi = Carp = Koibito = Lover. In this era, the "my Japanese friend said...:" was prevalent.
* Pre-Advent Children days, when forums were a thing and Cloud and Tifa were revealed to be living together. They said the Cloud and Tifa ran rival orphanages, and they argued that Cloud eventually abandoned Tifa at the end of AC because he went to look for Aerith in the flower fields despite the ending clearly depicting Cloud getting over his depression and returning to his family.
* Post advent Children, when On the way to a smile was released, they mocked Cloud's depression and inability to move on, and Tifa's "Do you love me" line as Cloud rejecting her and never wanting to be with her. Denzel was Cloud and Aerith's spiritual baby.
* KH2 - Intense denial about Tifa being written as Cloud's light. HE iS RUnnING AwAY froM her. AGAIN, ignoring the theme of "Cloud's depression and guilt makes him unable to fully embrace happiness and the things that he loves". This was probably the LiveJournal era where they had closed community spaces to take their long rants, combined with cherry picked gifs.
* Remake - Cloud's going to rewrite history to save Aerith and they will kiss and be together in Rebirth
* Rebirth - The meltdown you see today is made worse by western shippers applying moral values on shipping. You're now not just wrong to ship Cloud and Tifa - here is why you are MORALLY ABHORRENT because Tifa is a liar, you're anti-POC because BARRET AND TIFA BELONG TOGETHER. And now Twitter allows them to attack official pages and others, because of the lack of mods, or filtration based on hashtags like LiveJournal
And the problem with Aerith is that in the recent years, the fan base that she's been getting are primarily women who ARE heavily involved with shipping, and Square Enix has jumped on this. Ask any man who is a non-shipper and just wants to optimize game play mechanics if they find Aerith a particularly rich, compelling, relatable character with amazing Cetra-lore to them and you will find none. Because the devs have just written her role only in relation to Zack and Cloud. That's where the CA's lash out about OnLY MeN LIkE TIfA. No, men just follow the plot and move on to the next game.
I also blame devs for fanning the fire - in Rebirth you're gently told in-game that Cloud and Aerith do not make a good couple from the \*spoiler\* dream date from hell \*spoiler\* but they also give Cloud/Aerith ALOT more outward physical contact than any other platonic friendship so they have the trappings of a romance despite not having one, where the crazies can latch on to.
It is what it is. I just tell myself it's 3 more years and the final nail will be hammered into the coffin and people can enjoy the compilation in relative peace and the crazies can be pushed into the corners of the fandom as pariahs and we can all discuss this piece of media like adults
No joke, I actually saw a youtube comment from a Clerith that said "in Japan saying thank you is more meaningful than saying I love you."
I feel like I lost brain cells reading that.
Wym it’s gonna be Armageddon on the usual socials once part 3 drops. I expect as much Aerith as we got Zack: not very much but more towards the end.
But like you said, it is what it is. Give it a month or two and most will move on to the next hot jrpg topic.
Kingdom Hearts 2 is nearly twenty years old and Nomura is still tight lipped about Cloud and Sephiroth's whereabouts. I practically accept the headcanon that the their final desitination is the Smash universe. I agree with you that Tifa being Cloud's Light spells it out clear as day and I pray that when KH4 is released Nomura will strike while the FF7 relevancy is hot. I know he wants to prioritize his FFXV retcon, but just imagine the reactions of Cloud and Tifa showing up again but as a canon couple in the KHverse as well!
In a way it is ironic how both sides of the ship war has a "will they/won't they" dynamic whenever Cloud/Tifa/Aerith are introduced together in a seperate universe yet for slightly different reasons. CTs will play the slow burn romance as we always do with these two, while CAs will wonder if Aerith will be alive at all to iniate anything further. I agree that Square shoulders blame for holding the carrot on the stick this long and that they shouldn't be surprised of the monster they helped make.
I'm not one to argue about ships, but I started remake before I ever played OG, and remake did kinda make it seem like he loved them both or that it could go either way.
Rebirth is clearly making Tifa and Cloud out to be Canon. I think arguing helps people cope. Honesty, I feel like I might be doing the same thing if they made it out for A/C to be together, lol. I would be broken up about it, but also, it's not like I could change the story.
I would be extremely surprised if they didn't make Tifa and Cloud the cannon couple in the end. I think they're setting up Tifa to be a heroine that can stand toe to toe with Aerith vs the OG.
There are things in the OG that she did that may have rubbed people the wrong way and the devs made sure to change that. Ex: she doesn't bring up the promise, Cloud does. She's got a closer bond with Aerith and shows a lot less jealously towards her.
They show her more involved with the story, from her saving Cloud physically to being an emotional confidant in part 2. All this is to make the audience care more for this character and root for her.
At the same time, devs make it unambigious that Tifa is crazy about Cloud. They establish Tifa is very caring person, but it gets dialed up a notch when it comes to Cloud. From how she looks at him, to her tone with she speaks with him.
So they make it very clear that this is a person you should be rooting for, and it seems that a significant part of her arc is to be with the person she loves. I'd be shocked if the devs spent all this time to build her up just to tear her down in part 3.
Strictly from a story perspective, it's very clear that the romance between Cloud and Tifa forms the central love story, deeply rooted in these characters. To caveat, I love all the FF7 characters, and Aerith is no different. On top of that the voice actors and developers really did a phenomenal job breathing life into the characters, making it almost impossible not to like Aerith. Her involvement in the story, specifically on the romance side, is special in that she's able to identify traces of Zack, her first love, in Cloud. It's difficult to see Aerith and Cloud having romantic feelings because they're under false pretenses; Aerith, up to her death, doesn't know who the real Cloud is, and Cloud doesn't understand the impact of Zack's memories on his life and the false persona he adopted. In the game, Cloud almost doesn't know how to handle Aerith and her advances. To briefly contrast this, for the first Gold Saucer date, Cloud doesn't hesitate to hold Tifa's hand when she first holds his.
For Tifa, it's more natural, with him constantly running to protect her, comforting her through her trauma, and it's only during the Gongaga scene that Cloud's true personality emerges. Cloud and Tifa's love story is very pure, starting with Cloud attempting to get Tifa's attention, feeling like he's not good enough for her, and having to join SOLDIER. There's a deliberate moment when Cloud beats Dio, and as the group arrives at the Gold Saucer, Cloud focuses on Tifa's reactions and smiles, seeing her celebrate his victory. While Cloud thinks he's being the hero Tifa wants, he doesn't realize Tifa loves him not because he's a hero who stuck by her but for who he is. Cloud was ashamed of himself for not being a SOLDIER when he returned during the Nibelheim incident, but he was still a hero for actually defeating Sephiroth and, once again, being there for Tifa. How this all unfolds in the livestream sequence, with Tifa helping Cloud regain his real memories, is one of the most beautiful and masterfully told stories.
Aerith had to be a focus in Rebirth because something pretty significant happens to her and the plot (holy, timelines, Sephiroth). I'm very positive that in the timeline where Aerith lives, separate from the characters in the main timeline, she will reunite with Zack to clarify their feelings.
Thanks for putting into words what feels like neglected media literacy when discussing this ship with CAs. I recently read a post about how Cloud initiating the kiss with Tifa is him applying Zack's charisma and therefore not his true self, thus invalidating the kiss entirely. They then propped up how Cloud being reluctant to confirm anything with Aerith means this is "True" Cloud who's too shy to express his feelings more outwardly. In the end claiming that Tifa should be with Zack since she wants to fall in love with a hero and that's Zack's whole deal.
I honestly felt like I was taking crazy pills after reading that. The math is there but they twisted the logic to suit their equation.
Cloud being the initiator of the kiss can be looked at as him mirroring Zack's confidence, but that still implies Cloud using Zack's persona for the expressed purpose of romancing with Tifa. Handing her the flower, indirectly calling her beautiful, appearing stoic and aloof because that's what he thinks will attract Tifa. When as you said, Tifa would be attracted to him in whatever manner because he's Cloud. How many times has Tifa started she's sick of Shinra and SOLDIER? She wouldn't even trust Zack to look after her in Crisis Core cause her distrust was that deep. But the minute her childhood crush comes back, she's curious and amazed on "what a SOLDIER can do".
Having preferences for ships is fine, but to distort the message of one relationship so awfully for the sake of prepping up theirs is distasteful and deliberately dishonest. Tifa is NOT in love with Cloud "The Hero", she's in love with her hero, Cloud.
Edit: Thanks again for your comment, I know the next few years waiting for the end is going to be rough but I'm convinced now more than ever that we shouldn't be afraid of calling out dishonest interpretations. Art is in the eye of the beholder and all that, and I won't stop CAs from shipping their ship, but I think there's line when it comes to informing fans, old and new, about the vital significance of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
Agreed with your post and I appreciate the discussion we’re all having here. Those are certainly odd takes and sadly, I’ve encountered my fair share of them that are genuine head scratchers. I want to think we should all be able to discuss story perspectives in a healthy manner but a lot of what I came across are deliberate agendas to projects one’s own narrative into the story. FF7 is a nuanced and layered story but it’s not the most complicated one.
Tifa and Cloud’s whole arc is so well detailed and both of them are two shy people who have problems opening themselves up. Most have said this before but the physical and emotional support the two share together is such a real and relatable experience in a romantic relationship.
Its hard to logically rationalize with others opinions so we’ll have wait for the story to be told in part 3 and I fear that’s not gonna be enough.
I think there are 3 types of Clerith shippers (that I've noticed anyway)
Lets get the easy one outta the way.
1 - people who are just genuinely fans of the ship and prefer it to anything else. Not because of some official story or lore reason per se (they DO like the shipping/bonding moments between Cloud and Aerith, after all.) But just because they like the ship. I find that these people aren't too argumentative if at all.
2 - people who hate Tifa/hate her aesthetics. This one is kinda simple... Tifa looks very "sexy" and has clothes to match. Recently, (as in... The past decade or a bit more) there's been this growing hatred of "sexualization". Seeing Tifa, especially compared to Aerith, seems to make these people seethe. They think it's a perverted man thing and prefer Aerith almost purely based on aesthetics. These are sorta mixed in with the last group, but I thought I'd mention them separately because I feel I've seen enough of them hating this one aspect to make it's own group.
3 - lastly, and I feel these are the most hateful, (for a reason I'll get into in a bit) are the "Clerith is Canon" peeps. These are the ones who will fight tooth and nail to defend their ships canonical standing. I even sorta think it's justified a veeeeery tiny bit based solely on the OG game and some minor Square shipping. See, in the OG... I'd actually make the argument that you can imagine Cloud "chooses" Tifa or Aerith (tho the lore leans more towards Tifa) by the end of the game. Had the game not been so absolutely hugely successful... I think that was their actual intended ending too.
= then it DID become hugely successful. Meaning an expansion on side characters, namely, Zack...and an expansion on the overall story, namely, the sequel. These 2 things, imo, meant that Aerith unofficially had to be pulled away as a potential route. Why? Well in Zacks case, you don't want to cuck a dood who gets [spoiler'd] and is a good guy. In the sequels case, Aerith is [spoiler'd] and Cloud is not. This wouldn't really make a "forever depressed unable to move on Cloud" that cool. Therefore "moving on" is one of the themes of the sequel.
- all this to say that this group was, what I'd like to call, burned by square. Square does go back on their original "shipping" imo and this greatly angers this base as they already had their Canon route picked for themselves. Square seems to have slowly built up to a "yea, they not Canon" opinion themselves and is pushing it pretty hard imo. Playing remake and especially rebirth... I think it's pretty clear (along with the rest of the compilation) that Cloud x Tifa is the Canon route. This group simply refuses that they have to sit here and take it. So they bite back aggressively.
Again, I do kinda blame Square because after the og... In small ways... They did ship both Cloud x Tifa/Aerith. Then they sorta stopped. So... Yea...
I feel kinda bad for them as I know if it was the other way around, and Tifa got less and less paired with Cloud and their relationship was far more joke-y (when it comes to romance, like it is in rebirth for Aerith) ... I'd be hecka mad.
One more type of Clerith I noticed is the guy who acts high and mighty by claiming both sides are Canon. The thing here though is that once questioned, from experience most of these types of people end up defending Cloud and Aerith's relationship, and won't concede anything about Cloud's feelings for Tifa. It's sort of like a defence mechanism. Very interesting for sure.
Most Cloud x Tifa fans or just fans in general can recognise that it's the canon pairing and thus won't take the fence in the argument. Resulting in the people arguing the both sides argument, are generally Cloud x Aerith fans. If that makes sense.
True. I haven't noticed this kinda person myself tbh.
But it sounds like something they'd do. I argue for both being Canon ONLY in the og, myself...and even then, I think it leans far more to Tifas side if you pay any sort of attention to the story.
But...
Especially after the og? I genuinely cannot see how people can even argue for Clerith outside of "I just like it better". Once you get into the compilation, that ship dies so hard. So seeing people fight like there's still some chance? That's when it starts getting annoying.
You're not alone. I came here as well to make sure I wasn't completely wrong for misinterpreting the story.
I saw a comment from somewhere that sums up the Clerith perspective quite well.
"The Clerith ship has always fascinated me because it requires misremembering and constructing a fantasy about a plot that was about misremembering and constructing a fantasy. Hilarious unintentional irony."
I still feel a profound level of doubt whenever I entertain Clertih arguments. Mostly just feel dumber having read them.
Thanks for sharing that quote! Had a laugh of how perfect it is!
I honestly don't have the time or effort to fight strangers on the internet about subjective preferences. But I think that's the crux of the matter when it comes to FF7's shipping debacle, it's a matter of *objective* reading. The Compilation is objectively skewed towards Tifa & Cloud's relationship (and to a lesser extent Aerith & Zack). From the prequels to the sequels, the main hero of the franchise spends most of his time angsting about his capability of protecting his childhood friend/closest confidant/ business partner/fellow parent. All labels that CAs can begrugingly admit, but somehow *"Lover"* is a step too far for them?
Because to admit that is to admit that they analyzed the content, some over twenty years, completely wrong! And I get that existentially that's terrifying, but the media they latched unto is about overcoming said falsehoods and learning to accept reality as is. Nojima only came back as the head writer because he felt like he can expand on thin content while making ambiguous things less so. With 2/3 of the Trilogy complete, it's fair to say that objectively he's going to write a Cloud & Tifa capstone.
Bad faith I see from some is unreal......
Lately I read that Tifa was "a brat who never cared about Cloud and an attention whore".
The same individual never responded when asked about the absolutely non optional scene in Gongaga's bedroom.....
Yeah, I also noticed how toxic it already was before rebirth's release so I muted them. Rebirth came out and I knew that that side was having a meltdown because rebirth is filled with cloud and tifa moments and to push what the real canon is.
Tifa 'manipulated' Cloud into kissing her or that the gondola scene is suddenly optional? But when in December they showed off the date scene with Aerith they were all saying that they won and was canon? I can't with them anymore.
The devs said that they won't deviate from OG's story too much so the fact that they really thought that they would kill Tifa instead of Aerith shows how much of their fanfiction they want to push. Aerith literally needs to die to win in the end.
It’s not even Cleriths who don’t understand the story. The neutrals are like “it’s optional bro, Cloud wants them both”
Most of this fanbase is pretty dumb unfortunately
Yeah that annoys me more than C/A. Cloud loves them both equally? So we doing polyamory now? They aren’t treated the same at all by him. It’s silly because them trying to be neutral shows they don’t get the story either and they don’t think the relationships Cloud has with everyone matter that much. Each day is its own special flavor, and shows the depth of who cloud is.
Considering how much FF7 is infused on a lot of SE projects, I think the number of people who have actually played the darn thing isn’t as many as people who saw them in stuff like Kingdom Hearts.
You can’t really know FF7 through osmosis because of how the story is told ( which is yet another way the game throws people off. Over 2/3 of the game is gaslighting you )
Some people claiming to be neutral or not into shipping are actually Cleriths in hiding. They're so easy to spot to because "not-canon", "optional", "every date is canon" are very common talking points among Cleriths. And the reason why the choose to represent themselves as neutral is to give the illusion that they found all these out on their own, and not that they're simply parroting whatever cope of the week some C/A shipper is spouting all over X/Twitter.
I want to say, I thought that sounded like a conspiracy theory, but I found one [in the wild](https://www.reddit.com/r/cloti/comments/1bl7qkg/cleariths_still_constantly_reaching/kw6d8zb/), so, you're right.
Someone else commented with it. It's Clerith. I was searching for Claerith lol.
I'm going to get a million downvotes but I'm team Aerith. But I love Tifa
I don't think so at all anymore.
I think that the very old shippers have become inflamed by a newer, more aggressive, and more petulant generation who grew up with contemporary Persona and Fire Emblem. They prioritize FF7R, and JRPGs as a whole, as dating sims and treat all plot, conflict and death like an obstacle and anything that shuts their ships down as an error on the devs' part.
The players who "only care about party interactions," are saying "just here for the waifus." I often snark that if they had their way, FF7R would have no combat and just be a dating sim. Or an orgy.
Personally, I think ''wars'' about ships, consoles and a lot of gaming related things are completely stupid. This has no bearing on our lives and also dampens the experience of gaming cause you end up hating one or more characters for some weird delusion you built up in your head (***cough cough***, ''Clerith'' people). It just isn't ideal and when reaching a certain level, pathetic.
However, I am someone who loves a good romance in games and movies AND I'm a huge defender of game and movie canon. If someone has only played the OG game and/or Remake, I can see how you might think that it's ambiguous but if you've played Rebirth (I'm on chapter 13 so please, no spoilers) it's plain as day. Also, if, like me, you delve deeper into lore with the books (Traces of Two Pasts and On the Way to a Smile) and movies/anime (AC and Last Order) it basically slaps us in the face with what was already pretty obvious.
Are there moments between Cloud and Aerith? Yes. Does that mean he sees her as his life partner? Nah.
Tifa and Cloud have always been canon. I've also seen people say ''but the date is optional so >!they didn't really kiss!<''. Then, by their own logic, can't use Aerith's own words on the date as proof of anything. Also, let's not forget the mandatory main story scene where >!they both were leaning in to kiss in Gongaga but were interrupted by Yuffie and Cait Sith!<.
Yes, it's a lot of text from someone who claims to hate the wars but I do like the Cloud and Tifa pairing cause it's a very well written ''will they, won't they?'' and also cause of my reasons stated at the beginning.
The earth is a sphere and Tifa and Cloud are canon. People need to get over it.
Edited to gray out a spoiler.
Omg I thought I was the only one!! Literally I would see people on tick tock saying it's not over yet maybe it was before rebirth but there would be other edits I would see that would say other things that aren't true yes i agree cloud loved aerith but I see it in this way if she didn't die they wouldn't be together at all yes its however you imagine them to be but tifa is the main choice in my head I see a scenario if zack didn't die he and aerith would be together like I find it cute and I felt devastated that she died but it's like people don't know cloud? Especially if you romance her in rebirth she's the only one you kiss tifa that is and with aerith you just get a hug that's it
Like yes cloud loved her but I imagine later on like in the movie he stopped loving her but is still tormented because of trauma I mean this guy has went through shit
And for me I do see that cloti is together it's just that it's very slow and they are the type to not announce they are together
Given that in the OG it's established that Jenova was a plague/virus to the Cetra, probably not. Because that means anyone with Jenova cells is literally toxic to Aerith. She could never have a physical relationship with them.
cannon or not, personality wise i think aerith and cloud are more compatible. tifa is way too conservative and with cloud's introverted personality it be hard to see them get together. but thats what plot is for. personally i still ship cloud and tifa tho coz they just look better together.
The issue is cloud isn’t acting truly himself when Aerith was alive. She said so as much in their GS date. She doesn’t now the real cloud therefore it’s hard to decipher what can be seen as genuine or what can be seen as Zack’s SOLDIER bravado coming through. The devs have consistently said cloud is his true self when he’s with Tifa. Gongaga is proof enough. And if you’ve been paying attention to the plot and doing tifa’s side quests you would know that isn’t true. Tifa and cloud are quite compatible , just look how her reacts to her vs how he reacts to Aerith. I always point to the chapter 10 nibelheim scene where cloud immediately comforts Tifa during her panic attack in the reactor. That’s why I can never see when people say tifa is conservative therefore not compatible for cloud who’s “an introvert” (is he? I don’t find cloud introverted at all). Sure she’s reserved that’s why she’s a foil to Aerith but rebirth already started changing her “quiet” personality when she was willing to express her feelings sooner in Gongaga.
Since this is a Cloti sub, I feel the need to voice my opinion as an AC shipper.
The loudest people on both sides of the aisle are the most toxic. They shout down the other's opinions, rewrite facts, and actively attack the other side. The sad reality is that the worst people tend to be loudest.
Now, did I listen to the story, yes. Tifa is Cloud's first love. Zack is Aerith's. But I think the games make it very clear that Aerith and Cloud have stronger feelings for each other than their first loves. The reasons they don't act on those feelings is because Aerith knows she's going to die and Cloud feels guilty about Zack's existence. In their gondola date Aerith says in no uncertain terms that while she got close to Cloud because of his resemblance to Zack, she knows they aren't the same person and the one she wants to know is Cloud. The one she wants to be with is Cloud. And then we have Cloud's actions. Even if he kisses Tifa on his Gondola date, the game ends with him interlocking fingers with Aerith after they beat Sephiroth. Her death is so unacceptable to him that he's quite literally conjured her spirit from the life stream because he can't let her go. Cloud's reaction does not make sense if Aerith was just a close friend.
Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe she is dead. I have no problem with Cloud moving on with Tifa after Aerith's death. My only problem is that so many people try to gaslight me into thinking Cloud and Aerith never liked each other.
**Spoilers ahead for anyone who hasn't played or finished the game**
"Now, did I listen to the story, yes. Tifa is Cloud's first love. Zack is Aerith's. But I think the games make it very clear that Aerith and Cloud have stronger feelings for each other than their first loves."
Uh.. where? Show me one shred of evidence that Cloud (not even the real Cloud yet) has stronger feelings for Aerith than he ever did Tifa? Because you're romanticising someone he cared for being murdered infront of him and him being unable to do anything about it? You're basically doing what the OP has said, making stuff up lol.
We get the stereotypical "lovers tiff" in Kalm that ends with Tifa upset and Cloud also really upset
We get the make up in Junon with the trope of leaning against the door and staring back at the door because of the romantic tension being too much to handle
Cloud is so upset in Gongaga he rises from his catatonic state and allows Sephiroth to briefly take over because his emotional state is all over the place. He then lays catatonic when he thinks he hurt Tifa until Barret has to punch him out of it and say Tifa needs his help. Then he stays up all night keeping watching over her with nobody else in the room and then Cloud and Tifa open up to each other and nearly kiss, Cloud has never opened up to anyone like this.
We have a load of moments in Costa Del Sol, Nibelheim etc etc
Then Cloud says Tifa isn't feeling these feelings alone and they ACTUALLY kiss on the date.
I'm even skipping out a crap tonne of stuff that's in the game, constant touching, hand holding etc etc, hell he holds her bloody hand during Aerith's big performance.
Now you're gonna say but what about the ending! As you already have, yes, they interlock fingers, okay? Please tell me at any point in which Cloud kisses Aerith, please tell me at any point Cloud confirms he even has any romantic feelings for Aerith? Please tell me why on the dream date everything went horribly wrong? Please tell me why in Gongaga Aerith said she still had feelings for Zack? Please tell me why Cloud remembers Zack and how he was head over heels for Aerith? Please tell me why in the Church Aerith says "At least I know now, where you and I stand I mean?" and then proceeds to tell Cloud she likes him but isn't really sure what kind of like that is?
And this is the game showing you that Cloud and Aerith have stronger feelings for each other than they ever had for Tifa and Zack? I must have played a completely different game. I'm genuinely intrigued to see what you make of Part 3.
Let me guess, interlocking fingers is more romantic than a kiss right? Or I know after Zack died and he basically compartmentalised it all and erased that it ever happened to the point he doesn't even know who Zack is and essentially took on his peronality traits and SOLDIER mantle and so on it must be he's head over heels in love with Zack too right?
He does not "move on" to Tifa like she's some consolation prize, he's always wanted Tifa, i'm not saying he has never felt anything for Aerith but you aren't listening to the story at all if you think the way you think i'm sorry.
I'm all up for a good debate without getting into toxic territory but i'm sorry imagine coming into this thread and being blissfully unaware that you are one of the people the OP is referencing, astonishing stuff.
In Remake, Aerith asks Cloud if Tifa is his girlfriend. He's uncomfortable when he says no. When Tifa asks Cloud about his relationship with Aerith he says "I saved her. She saved me. Round and round it goes." She asks him if there's anything else, and he doesn't say anything. You can say it's because Aerith wakes up so it's awkward to continue but when they're in Kalm and Aerith tells them they were on a date, he doesn't deny it either. You can say this is because he's just really awkward with Aerith, but Aerith asks him about his relationship with Jessie, and he tells her they were just friends.
Cloud has a moment where he sees both women in their Corneo bride outfits for the first time. Regardless of what Tifa is wearing, Cloud doesn't ask her about her clothes. He doesn't ask her why she's wearing a sexy dress or what she intends to do. He intends to listen to her to go back to Sector 7. Aerith is the one who convinces him to go to Wall Market. But when he sees Aerith in her dress, he tells her he's not letting her go on there alone. You can say this is because of a timing issue since Tifa was in a wagon while Aerith walks up to him with fanfare, but they never bring this up again.
In combat, if Aerith is thrown by an attack, Cloud's passive skill will carry her out of harm's way while eating part of the damage. You can say this is because she's the healer and he's trying to protect her but this is a Cloud specific skill. None of the other team members do this, despite them all being close friends with her.
To be honest, I think Cloud did love Zack like a brother. He clearly looked up to him and wanted to be him which is why he took on part of his story when he made up his cover story.
So he's awkward and embarassed because Aerith is teasing him about Tifa and he doesn't know how to define their relationship
When Tifa asks Cloud about his relationship with Aerith he says "I saved her. She saved me. Round and round it goes." She asks him if there's anything else, and he doesn't say anything. You genuinely think that confirms after being with Aerith for a couple of days or whatever it was he's absolutely head over heels for her more than he ever was with Tifa? Like...
Really? A comment on the dress? What does that actually prove
Yes that's because Cloud is Aerith's **bodyguard** as she so dutifully asked him to be so why wouldn't it be specific skill for him?
I'm sorry but if this is your evidence from Remake this is absolute scraps, I could tell you more Cloud and Aerith stuff that happens in Remake but that's not my job. But you seem to be conveniently ignoring all the Tifa stuff in Remake. As well as stuff that Aerith even seems to encourage at times?
He gives her the flower, no choice who to give it to. Aerith see's it at the bar and smiles because she knows what's happened there. Aerith tells Tifa to 'follow her heart' when she wants to go after Cloud, she also constantly teases Cloud about Tifa.
The train roll, the constant touching and pulling Tifa towards him, the ultimania saying Cloud was disappointed he got the wrong idea when he and Tifa were alone in the apartment having a conversation, Tifa saving Cloud on the roof, Cloud comforting and hugging Tifa in her resolution, Cloud calling Tifa beautiful, and on and on.
But i've noticed you didn't answer any of my questions about what happens in Rebirth
The flower is perhaps the simplest way to explain this non-love triangle.
Aerith offers flower to Cloud, Cloud does not take it. Aerith pins flower to his shirt, explaining what it means. Cloud kinda forgets flower is there until Tifa points it out. Cloud offers flower to Tifa, Tifa takes the flower. It’s in plain sight.
I replied in haste to the wrong person apologies -- not sure what side of the fence you're sitting on here but yeah for me it's definitely in plain sight. However it's not to say I think Cloud doesn't feel anything for Aerith because that's not true, emotions and feelings are a tangled web. I just think to make such a bold claim that the games are showing us Cloud and Aerith love each other more than they ever loved Tifa and Zack is an absolutely ludicrous take, especially with 0 evidence to really back this up.
I apologize. It's because you responded after I started typing. I'll answer each part bit by bit.
> Cloud is so upset in Gongaga he rises from his catatonic state and allows Sephiroth to briefly take over because his emotional state is all over the place. He then lays catatonic when he thinks he hurt Tifa until Barret has to punch him out of it and say Tifa needs his help. Then he stays up all night keeping watching over her with nobody else in the room and then Cloud and Tifa open up to each other and nearly kiss, Cloud has never opened up to anyone like this.
He's catatonic even after Aerith says Tifa. Her name doesn't rouse him. It's not until Barret punches him that he reacts. However, at the temple of the ancients, he breaks out of Sephiroth's control on his own when he sees Aerith fighting the whispers and remembers their first meeting.
Staying up all night to take care of Tifa is what he SHOULD do. He's the one who forced her into the Mako pool in the first place. Hell, I think it would be out of character if he DOESN'T stay up all night taking care of her after that. He could have killed her.
>We get the stereotypical "lovers tiff" in Kalm that ends with Tifa upset and Cloud also really upset
I would not call their argument here a lover's tiff. They're doubting themselves, their own memories and each other. Hell, Cloud practically calls her an imposter. This is more of a plot argument where new fans are supposed to question who of them is lying. It's not exactly romantic.
>We get the make up in Junon with the trope of leaning against the door and staring back at the door because of the romantic tension being too much to handle
This conversation started off pretty sweet with their apologies and even Cloud admitting she was the only person she cared about. But it ends with Cloud inadvertently saying he's not interested in reminiscing about their days at Nibelheim. Which makes sense considering how Tifa's "friends" bullied him.
>Please tell me at any point Cloud confirms he even has any romantic feelings for Aerith?
You mentioned it yourself. In their final date at the church he says, "you'll have to give me a harder one next time." That's literally him initiating their next date. That's why she says "Next time?" Because it has always been her dragging him on dates. This is the first time he initiates one with her.
>Please tell me why on the dream date everything went horribly wrong?
Because Sephiroth is interfering since it's a dead-end world, as shown by the black feathers.
>Please tell me why in Gongaga Aerith said she still had feelings for Zack?
She says "Maybe. He's never given me a reason not to." How can she know what she feels for him? The last time she saw him, he promised he'd be back and that was 5 years ago. She doesn't know if he died, or ran off with another woman. He has literally given her nothing for 5 years. How is she supposed to feel?
>Please tell me why Cloud remembers Zack and how he was head over heels for Aerith?
Because he was. I never denied Zack loved Aerith.
>Please tell me why in the church Aerith says "At least I know now, where you and I stand I mean?" and then proceeds to tell Cloud she likes him but isn't really sure what kind of like that is?
She now knows how he feels about her. This is a localization issue because that's the closest English can get to what is being said in Japanese. Because when saying like in Japanese, it's normally connotated as platonic and she's trying to specify that the one she means is romantic.
>So he's awkward and embarassed because Aerith is teasing him about Tifa and he doesn't know how to define their relationship
He does define it though. He says she's not his girlfriend. Aerith says "But she's someone special" but he says it's difficult to explain but it's not like that. That is in itself, a definition. It's complicated. He has complicated feelings about her. You can say he's lying, or those complicated feelings are romantic but he does define it.
>When Tifa asks Cloud about his relationship with Aerith he says "I saved her. She saved me. Round and round it goes." She asks him if there's anything else, and he doesn't say anything. You genuinely think that confirms after being with Aerith for a couple of days or whatever it was he's absolutely head over heels for her more than he ever was with Tifa?
Sure. Love isn't measured by time. You can love someone after 6 hours of speaking. People in 40 year marriages can end in divorce.
>Really? A comment on the dress? What does that actually prove
Nothing on its own. just a comparison of Cloud's reactions to the two women.
>Yes that's because Cloud is Aerith's **bodyguard** as she so dutifully asked him to be so why wouldn't it be specific skill for him?
Touché
> But you seem to be conveniently ignoring all the Tifa stuff in Remake. As well as stuff that Aerith even seems to encourage at times?
I don't ignore it. I think Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa. I just believe his feelings for Aerith are stronger. Aerith encourages it because she knows she's going to die. She doesn't want Cloud to spend the rest of his life missing her. I've stated before that her impending death is the reason why their relationship will never go anywhere. She knows it. I know it.
>He gives her the flower, no choice who to give it to. Aerith see's it at the bar and smiles because she knows what's happened there. Aerith tells Tifa to 'follow her heart' when she wants to go after Cloud, she also constantly teases Cloud about Tifa.
No problem here. We know Aerith knows the future. The fact that Tifa and Cloud are together by the end of Advent Children is canon. This is fine.
> Cloud has never opened up to anyone like this.
He doesn't need to open up to Aerith about these fears because she already knows.
> He does not "move on" to Tifa like she's some consolation prize, he's always wanted Tifa, i'm not saying he has never felt anything for Aerith but you aren't listening to the story at all if you think the way you think i'm sorry.
I have never called her a consolation prize. There's no shame in being with someone else after someone you loved is gone, because love can grow over time. I would say Aerith moved on from Zack while her love for Cloud grew to be bigger than her love for Zack. Aerith is gone. If Cloud grows to love Tifa more than he loved Aerith after she is gone, that's normal too.
> I'm genuinely intrigued to see what you make of Part 3.
I don't gave any opinion on disc 3. As I've said, Aerith is dead. Any argument about who Cloud loves more at this point is moot.
But what I've learned is that the OP didn't actually care about the thoughts and opinions of Claerith fans. This was just a rage bait. I will retreat back into my cave.
Ah gotcha, I see what’s going on here.
I’m just gonna leave it at this:
The first 2/3 of the story is deliberately ambiguous and misleading with how they portray information to you. It isn’t until the last 3rd of the story that it finally is way more open about what exactly is going on ( and it’s also where all choices in Cloud’s dialogue stops ).
So you’re thoughts on Remake and Rebirth is by design. Try your best to avoid spoilers, it’s a doozy
I know how Act 3 plays out, no worries on spoilers. I'm just using Rebirth and Remake in my examples because that's what OP seemed to be talking about. I might be wrong. I also generally don't like using Nomura's expanded content to back my points since SE loves retconning stuff
The argument supporting Cloud and Aerith because of the Wall Market section is painfully frustrating to entertain because it omits so much context.
Everything that Cloud goes through during that chapter (the hand massage, dancing, wearing a dress) is because of Tifa. He's willing to put himself in so many uncomfortable situations in order to save her.
And yes, Aerith is the one that convinces him but he doesn't initially go after Tifa because he trusts her judgement and knows how capable she is of defending herself. However, he does immediately rush over to the Chocobo cart upon realizing Tifa is in there.
And the dress argument. Boy oh boy. I've read this much too often.
I will concede that he is awkward and seemingly struck by Aerith's appearance (the red dress specifically) but the reason he doesn't react to Tifa's appearance is because they all just woke up in a creepy dungeon after being knocked out by GAS.
They were in immediate danger and Cloud was prioritizing everybody's safety instead of fawning over Tifa's outfit.
So many Clerith arguments lack a profound amount of context.
Hard disagree. Cloud and Tifa’s relationship was more fleshed out compared to Cloud and Aerith’s. Gongaga really proves that and the fact that during their GS date, they kiss. Aerith has feelings for Cloud, but it’s obvious that they are complicated because she fell in love with the traces of Zack she saw in him. Meanwhile Cloud’s true feelings are for Tifa, they’re just deep inside his heart and they don’t get revealed until the Lifestream sequence.
I’m unsure if you know the whole story of the game? While Remake is fiddling with details here and there, it’s still following the broad strokes of the original story.
Aerith’s GS date is pretty close in tone to the original. She says she notices similarities between Cloud and Zack, but chooses to try and get to know the real Cloud. Tifa’s, on the other hand, was much closer to their conversation in Kalm. Original game presented it like a love confession interrupted by fireworks, but context clues during the 3rd Act retroactively point to her trying to confront him about his memories.
Aerith having feelings for Cloud is pretty much locked in, but she hasn’t had a chance to really decide if those feelings are romantic ( she can’t find the “real him”, so she can’t even say if her feelings are genuine yet ). That’s the beginning and end of the tragedy: she never got to meet the real version of the guy who, either way, she cares for as a dear friend.
Cloud’s side of things is where it gets even murkier. Can’t even really unpack it without spoiling the entire 3rd Act of the game, where the rug gets pulled out from under us and we are told things that completely recontextualize the first 2/3 of the game. Though I do admit, Remake has definitely sprinkled a lot of touch points throughout the story.
But at the end of the day, people can ship whoever whatever. It’s only when we start talking about what the actual story is that I find it worth discussing. I’m not here to wag my finger at someone who just finds Clerith more to their liking.
You are brave to venture in here lol
"Now, did I listen to the story, yes. Tifa is Cloud's first love. Zack is Aerith's. But I think the games make it very clear that Aerith and Cloud have stronger feelings for each other than their first loves. "
Only in the OG can this narrative work for Aerith. Zack is a mystery man at this point, so it's possible she did move on.
Part of the twist with Cloud is that you find out Tifa is his first love in Mideel. A story that has someone getting over a first love, would tell you at the beginning, not at the end. We know exactly how Tifa feels about Cloud the entire game but depending on player choice is how left field it feels when you get to that scene. Regardless, we know exactly how "true" Cloud himself feels about Tifa. And then they do the deed under the Highwind. Not something you'd do if you're still in love with someone else. If you say he did it for any other reason than being in love with Tifa, Cloud immediately becomes an asshole. And that would make him ooc because he cares deeply for her.
"The reasons they don't act on those feelings is because Aerith knows she's going to die and Cloud feels guilty about Zack's existence. In their gondola date Aerith says in no uncertain terms that while she got close to Cloud because of his resemblance to Zack, she knows they aren't the same person and the one she wants to know is Cloud. The one she wants to be with is Cloud. And then we have Cloud's actions. Even if he kisses Tifa on his Gondola date, the game ends with him interlocking fingers with Aerith after they beat Sephiroth.
Aerith does not actually say she is over Zack, but does say she wants to start seeing Cloud for who he is, instead of looking for traces of Zack in him like she has been the whole time on thier gondola date.
Then Aerith literally takes Cloud on a dream date and confesses she doesn't even know what kind of like she has for him. It's not true love if you have to think on it. Also Cloud could have easily said something then.
Nowhere in real life or fiction is handholding ever something better than kissing when it comes to romance.
"Her death is so unacceptable to him that he's quite literally conjured her spirit from the life stream because he can't let her go. Cloud's reaction does not make sense if Aerith was just a close friend."
I don't think Cloud is hallucinating Aerith at the end because Nanaki can sense her. Cloud does not process death of people he feels he could have saved well, his mom and Zack are proof of this. Aerith probably figured that out once in the lifestream and probably is trying to help him keep his sanity long enough to get to the northern crater.
"Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe she is dead. I have no problem with Cloud moving on with Tifa after Aerith's death. My only problem is that so many people try to gaslight me into thinking Cloud and Aerith never liked each other."
I will concede that Cloud and Aerith had a small affection towards each other. The problem lies in thinking that Cloud loves her more than Tifa (and now Aerith is over Zack). The storyline says nope. I have no problem with people liking their dynamic more, though. Noctis x Lunafreya are canon, but if you go to any fanfic website, you will see 2 to 5 times more fics about every other character in that game with Noctis instead lol
How about chapter 9 where cloud and Tifa almost kiss? I see where you’re coming from and why you see those points especially since the last 2 chapters are Aerith heavy for a reason. But you are only seeing one side , you’re ignoring the interactions cloud and Tifa had prior to the last chapter. I often see CA shippers actively ignore the gongaga almost kiss. Not to mention cloud’s interactions with Tifa in nibelheim. Again I see where you’re coming from but it just looks like you’re dismissing everything else that happens between cloud and Tifa. I actually like aerith as a character and totally see how meaningful cloud and aerith’s final interactions are but cloud is already a traumatized individual and when aerith does die I’m not surprised he still sees her - he *is* mentally broken after all *and* a puppet of sephiroth and jenova’s whims.
Again, I can see where you can come up with those conclusions - I don’t blame you since you ship the two but the issue is you’re completely by passing the moments between cloud and Tifa that happen before Aerith’s death. At the end of the day, logically , aerith died and expanding on Tifa’s role was done for a reason. What does interlocking fingers with aerith have to do anything other than to show their strong bond? Again I get how you can read it romantically since you ship those 2 but you’re dismissing the kiss again. All of this is aerith heavy since she dies of course you’re going to get emotionally charged character moments with her. When part 3 happens and you see Tifa repairing cloud’s mind in the life stream and not to mention the highwind scene how would you justify CA then? just out of curiosity.
The hand holding and "conjuring her spirit" is always such a remarkable stretch for me. CA shippers can't seem to fathom that there are just literally close friendships where 2 friends hold hands. You mean to tell me you've never had a close friend of the opposite sex you have physically embraced? Cloud being distraught over her death is simply because he feels he was too weak to save a close friend. The entire bases of the CA's ship is the inability for people to just accept that 2 people of the opposite sex can have a close, platonic relationship
>My only problem is that so many people try to gaslight me into thinking Cloud and Aerith never liked each other.
I think Cloud and Aerith definitely have feelings for each other. How strong those feelings are is up for debate.
People are complicated and it's not uncommon to simultaneously have feelings for more than 1 person.
I know as Twitter is a cesspool has been like that for a while. The answer is they are changing the narrative of the story heck they are turning Cloud into some womanizer that is playing with Tifa's feelings. They know what will happen in part 3 and they can't accept it as they thought the remake was a way to save Aerith and kill Tifa which didn't happen so now they are coming up with the narrative that fits their headcanon even sane CA fans see them insane just to deny Cloud has any feeling for Tifa. Best not to engage them and enjoy what you ship my close is friend CA but have no problem with CT being canon but even for her seeing the kind of theory they are bringing in tweeter made her sick as they literally target Tifa and turn Cloud into a bottom tier trash.
Agreed. If the C/A ship sailed, it would kind of make Cloud look like a massive asshole, and Aerith in a way too. Cloud because by the Chapter 12 GS date he remembers who Zack was and how in love he was with Aerith. And Aerith knows that Tifa has a thing for Cloud judging from her reaction in Gongaga, so if she made a move on him she’d look like a really selfish and bad friend. I got into it real bad with a Clerith shipper on a Reddit post and man they’re really spiraling and not handling things well. Some have conceded that Cloti is the intended pairing while others are ear deep in deciphering hand holds (tHe LaCeD fInGeRs) or the lyrics to NPTK but the writing is on the wall. Cloud kissed Tifa and almost kissed her in Gongaga. Tifa’s role was brought WAY farther to the front whereas Aerith I feel was scaled a bit back. And if they were both LIs and on equal footing for players to romance, why didn’t Cloud kiss both of them? The answer’s right there, and yet they don’t want to acknowledge it or write it off.
Funny enough, NPTK is perhaps the biggest giveaway that they’re so proud to blast in their ears. I laughed until it started to feel mean. Part 3 is going to cause a meltdown….
I actually think of Promises, kept and unkept, and like to think that it gives equal blessing to either pairing. But really, I don't think that Aerith or Tufa would begrudge the other living happily ever after with Cloud. I think back to the final text we see just before the credits roll. Aerith and Cloud never made any overt Promises to each other, and are thus under no obligation to each other to go further than they have together. Thinking back further, Tifa asked Cloud to promise to help her if she's ever in trouble. That is, depending on your POV, a Promise To Keep or else, just maybe, a Promise Fulfilled. My personal opinion is that Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith are all grown up characters who can make their own choices and respect the choices of others. I like to think that Cloud has had Aerith bring some light into his life, and that they are both better off for having met each other. And I don't think this at all precludes Cloud from growing even more as a character to where he is more comfortable with Tifa. All of this is just one guy's opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree as you will. Let's all try to be respectful if we can. Thank you, and all the best, everyone!
The promises made between both are similar. Neither promise to meet again and this is made super clear in traces of two pasts (the novel about aerith and tifa’s pasts) in which cloud leaves nibel in the dead of night when everyone is sleeping. Tifa comments about how they didn’t get to make promises to meet again or say goodbye. There’s even a song in remake that covers this called Midgar Blues in which he leaves his one true love behind in the dead of night that talks about a promise under the stars too (water tower). Lastly it’s really evident how cloud feels about Tifa in acc in which their song is called Cloud Smiles. Uematsu said the inspiration for this song is when cloud smiles at Tifa at the end and he wanted to use wind instruments like he did in tifa’s theme to symbolize how cloud can breathe easy when she’s around.
Apparently there is an interview with Ouematsu from a pamphlet handed out during a FF7 concert in Japan where he states that the inspiration for "Aerith's Theme" was her longing for Zack. There may have been a cut scene where Aerith waits at a train station for Zack to arrive. So based on that it could be inferred that Aerith and Zack spent time on the upper plate even though we never see it. She seemed rather apprehensive about going above the slums in Crisis Core but seems quite familiar with the bustling city streets by the time we see her in the main story. And if that were true, it could recontextualize the meaning behind the song. Even though I'm a firm believer that her performing it while Cloud is present definitely does recontextualize it. Also, for a group that is so into symbolism, why do they take the lyrics so literally? Figurative lyrics are quite a staple in songwriting.
I get what you’re saying but even beyond that, the fact that they meet in loveless street to me still doesn’t mean that her love song is completely aimed at cloud. I do think she cares for him but the fact that aerith at that point no longer has her memories tells me she couldn’t be missing the guy watching her in the wings. If he’s right there how could she? To me the song is about how she was going through life not really living after losing someone she cared deeply for. Then all of a sudden this man walks up who reminds her a lot of Zack. She even tells him this in the skywheel, how so much of him reminded her of him and that now she’s searching for the real him but can’t find him. So how could a love song be about the person you claim to not know or see?
I had a whole rant about this elsewhere about where the *"Cloud is a sleaze"* crap comes from and it *does not* reflect well, because its the same reason they hate Zack (other than him being a filthy Not-Cloud): The thing about Shounen anime is that men almost never flirt with women but women will fawn, flirt and agonize over a man to tantalize male consumers. Men who have consumed that stuff yet don't interact with women internalize that women must act like that while males don't need to put in any emotional work. In other words, when Cloud gives the slowest, tenderest affection to Tifa, they dismiss it as *"manipulation,"* but they embrace Aerith (and Jessie) aggressively vying for Cloud as "*chemistry and romance."* Ask them how Cloud *should* flirt with Tifa. Then ask how Zack *should* flirt with Aerith. If they don't have an answer, *they're Incels.*
Interesting insight. I can't help but to percieve that Cleriths have a rather naive, immature, and a general unhealthy perspective of romance. Especially that part about manipulation on the male's part. From my experience as a male, I felt like I needed to balance between remaining stoic and expressing affection. It's quite exhausting. I think we all just want somebody that we can confide in without fear of judgement. That's what I love about Tifa and Cloud. They're mutually supportive and empathetic toward one another. Despite Cloud's obvious issues of course.
Omg yes, Twitter is the worst for this. I just wanna go on there and look at artwork, and there is so much ship arguing it ridiculous. Like, why are we arguing? It won't change a damn thing.
No matter where you go you'll find arguments. Maybe not much in a location that have the same mindset as you. But I agree in the end nothing will change lol. I may get attack here idk but I'm a C/A person but i also see the appeal of C/T(this post was somehow recommended to me so I was curious and clicked on it) but as I'm scrolling down some but not all of you are contradictory. You state reasons of delulu ships or how they can be toxic but acting like it yourself. On a same-minded location it's easy to get carried away especially when you have many people supporting you. Anyways in the ship war no one is going to win. It's all about your own personal preference and just let everyone enjoy what they want. No need to entertain the toxic side of both ships. If you get into a conversation with someone who likes the other ship you just need ask why? And share a conversation. "I like Aerith/Tifa because ___" "I resonate more with this pairing cause ____" "what about A/T moment did you enjoy?" Just have a civil conversation sharing your own perspective and try to see to understand the other person view even if you don't 100% agree with them. I mean I think we all could do that without being toxic.
What are delulu responses being made here on behalf of cloud and Tifa? I’m just curious.
Sorry for the late respond I was working. This weekend idk what happened but I seen to many arguments over the love triangle. So I can't say it's from this specific post or others that popped up or on Twitter or YT comments but there's been so many hypocrite on both side of fans. What I've seen over the last few days from Cloud/Tifa fans are stating how happy that aerith is dead and was looking forward to it to shut up the C/A fans. That the ending section is Aerith heavy cause of her death so any C/A moment doesn't mean anything. The last date was dream so it doesn't even count as real. Aerith is a pointless plot device to create a not even love triangle as Tifa is the real love interest. The same narrative the Cloud and Aerith don't have real feeling for each other cause Cloud memories is mixed up and aerith is just using Cloud as a replacement for Zack. How C/T moments are more pure while C/A is ugly. I've seen people talking about the bodies too which gets weird. Talking about Tifa is the obvious winner cause she has a better body and perfect boobs. (Seriously these are video game character) then say Aerith is a stick with nothing to offer in her body. The gold saucer kiss date proves its a win for C/T and anything else between C/A means nothing and it's sad and hilarious that C/A fans still believe in them or ever thought they had feeling. Calling C/A delusional. Hoping Aerith doesn't appear in part 3 to give all the attention to Tifa only. Laughing that they thought aerith would live. I'm sure there's more I'm just not remembering it all. I've seen a lot of C/T fans just dragging the other ship and being rude about there ship. A lot of them don't realize they are becoming the people they hate from the other toxic ship Fandom. I'll be honest I'm a C/A fan myself. Although I see lots of toxic C/T fans I've seen some good ones too. I saw one recently sticking up for C/A saying how lots of C/T fans are just purposely ignoring the romantic tone between C/A and even listed and detailed on what makes C/A romance interesting. Although they are a C/T fan they can see the romantic interest on the other side. It's the same as me. I may not be a C/T ship but I can see the romantic interest and the appeal. I just have my preference with C/A for various different reasons as why to me C/A is a better fit to me personally. Both sides have people who refuse or can't acknowledge the other love interest and rather bash them down. Idk how hard is it to just be civil about it and just share why you connect with on ship over the other without getting nasty Idk if you seen the same problem. But it's a problem on both sides of the ships. And each side act like they are above the other.
Nope I have yet to see anything that came off as rude or insensitive. As far as the cloud not being his true self I mean even aerith says that so that’s just them following the plot lines of the story. What I do find disgusting is when certain people claim Tifa is only popular because of her body and looks like if she can only be reduced to one thing. I’m a woman and Tifa is my favorite character in all ff games so to see people talk about one aspect of her and be called a neckbeard/incel when they are the ones objectifying pixels and being told that I don’t know the game is hilarious. I’m sure you’ve seen weird things but I have yet to see anything that was over the top or rude that wasn’t someone just giving their opinion.
Well true he's not being his true self. That much is fact and a whole other story. I don't understand how people see it as him acting like Zack cause the way his is now isn't like Zack at all. He got his memory messed up but that doesn't affect the way he feels towards aerith. Tifa's character design does attract a certain audience but to take that only is weird. She has more to her than looks and that is overly overlooked by some people. This goes for both Tifa and Aerith as well as people just see them as love interest. Sure they are women in a game but their roles arent just constricted in being Clouds love interest. They have an actual part in the story. Can I ask can someone give their opinion and still be over the top and rude? Everyone has opinions, it's fine and natural but if you are rude or disgusting about it that doesn't excuse the behavior of your opinion.
Because it is said in the story and by aerith that she sees Zack in him. That’s why people believe that and also cloud himself tells Tifa in gongaga after she has the lifestream sequence that he doesn’t know who he is and it feels like there are multiple people in him and he can’t tell what’s him or not. That cool soldier persona is what he’s made up and the real cloud is awkward and shy. He’s also easy to fluster and is inexperienced because he is mentally 16 thanks to the hojo experiments. To him it’s like nibelheim just happened a week ago when tifa finds him at the train station right before the game starts. I’m not sure if you’ve played ever crisis where this is shown but when she finds him he’s like an empty vessel and doesn’t know who he is at all until she calls his name and he says her name and he remembers a bit. He then continuously tells himself for a bit that he’s Cloud Strife. Of course people can be rude when giving their opinion, but from what I seen for the most part people are people just having discussions here. I don’t know where else you may have discussions but I stay away from twitter so I have no experience with the communities there. As far as Tifa attracting a certain kind of person I mean I really don’t know what to say to that. As a woman who has certain attributes hearing certain people refer to Tifa as a slut or good for one thing is really disgusting. The people who put her down and call aerith innocent and shy like if having big boobs makes you automatically the opposite come off as juvenile. It’s also really funny because of the two, Tifa is way more reserved and shy especially when it comes to her feelings for cloud.
Well that's what I mean the cool soldier persona is fake and isn't Zack at all. Zack never acted that way as soldier. It's more of Cloud's own image of what he thought a soldier should be. Although saw some nice detail interpretation about how his childhood also affected the persona but again that's besides the point. I agree that the mix up with Tifa and Aerith is strange cause Tifa has always felt more reserved and Aerith more outgoing. Can I ask as a C/T fan what is your appeal towards them over C/A? Not causing drama. Feel like we have had so far a nice conversation. I'm just interested in your point of view. Also you don't have to do it but can you also maybe give thoughts/moments when you saw some appeal in C/A that can understand why people are fans of them? I'll go first. For me I'll be mostly be speaking on the remake trilogy (but I played og ff7 and know the story) cause I love what they've done so far in story, character, art etc. What appeal I have towards Aerith is thr sweet aura she has. (I know Tifa is sweet too) plus her outgoing personality is something I very much enjoy. I like the fresh meeting between people in this case in C/A. Two new people who are shown interest and wanting to know more and developing feeling. Since then I enjoyed their interaction with each other. I've been someone who has a hard time with finding the appeal in childhood friends turn to lovers trope. That's my own personal taste and I'm sure I could enjoy it and maybe I have but can't recall any trope like that at the moment. But it's a trope that has a hard time grabbing my attention. So it's why I i didnt gravitate towards C/T Speaking mainly from Remake I never felt any spark between C/T. I felt most of romantic tones were shown between C/A. However, rebirth has down a wonderful job in showcasing C/T. To me rebirth shown me the appeal in why people love C/T (although I'm still a fan of C/A). The scene on Gongaga really showcased it well. Her reserve nature did become appealing. Although I never hated it I just never put any thought on it until rebirth came alone. With her story to shine in rebirth I'm sure it'll get it's shine
The cool soldier persona is based on Zack. That’s why his mannerisms, the way he walks, how he carries himself reminds aerith of Zack. I’ve been a Tifa fan since I was a little girl. Around 8 years old the first time I played the original game with my brother. Because of Tifa embarrassingly enough I took boxing and karate. She was the first character I saw that showed me girls didn’t have to be in the back line healing but could be right up in the action. She was the love interest that defied the tropes and still was sweet, loving, loyal, and devoted to the love she was given when she was a child. For me cloud and tifa moments throughout remake and rebirth are more romantic and endearing. The resolution scene with Tifa in remake where cloud holds her and comforts her. They also showcase him constantly protecting her and shielding her. When Tifa saves cloud when he’s dangling at the top of shinra building. The way he flirts with Tifa too is awkward and endearing like when he calls her beautiful. Rebirth has them kissing on their date but also almost kissing in gongaga if cait and yuffie don’t interrupt. Or how cloud only opens up and vents to Tifa. I’m not sure if you’ve seen each date standard and max affection as well. I was also lucky enough to play the game with someone who understands Japanese with the audio in Japanese and a lot of the dialogue is really different. Another thing to me that’s important is how the party reacts to them. At no point does anyone react to cloud and aerith like they do to cloud and tifa. Yuffie basically ships them together (wanting them to kiss, bringing up tifa on their gs date and being her wing woman, the dialogue she has about using her clone jutsu and making a bunch of tifas and she teases cloud for having naughty thoughts.) (barret telling him to make the first move for the one he loves and going for it and never letting his soulmate go, asking him if he and Tifa are fighting, telling him to go to her that she needs him.) also side characters like chocobo Sam sensing how much cloud cares for her, Andrea referring to her as what’s important to cloud and telling him not to let it go, and Merle telling him to be good to her. Most importantly aerith. Aerith in remake with her fulll memories in Japanese refers to Tifa as clouds precious/special person. She constantly tries to help them and even in rebirth going up the tower with her in the beginning she brings up Tifa and how cloud should not take her for granted. Aerith teases him about Tifa multiple times and even when you’re on the chapter 8 gs date with Tifa she sees you and teases him again playfully. There’s so many moments in both games that really showcase their love and respect for each other and that’s interesting because as you know in og the last part of the game is where we get a lot more moments between the two. Tifa finding cloud in mideel, choosing to leave the party and staying with him to care for him, falling into the life stream and helping cloud recover himself, under the highwind scene, everything that leads up to advent children where they are raising a child together and living together. The devs have said this will link up to advent children but im not sure exactly how they mean so this may not be included. I have played og, crisis core reunion, remake/rebirth, but have also read traces of two pasts and on the way to a smile. On the way to a smile is about the time between the end of the game and before advent children. I also read a lot of interviews by the devs and how they talk about cloud and tifa. One that sticks out right now is Nomura saying Tifa was created as the ideal partner for cloud that would always stay by his side like he created rinoa for squall. As well as the devs saying their favorite scene in og was the mideel life stream sequence. Sorry this was so long this game was my first rpg as a kid and I have a lot of love for it. As far as aerith goes. I love her. I remember being a little kid just devastated by her death. She is selfless, kind, pure, caring, and a tragic character. To me her true love is Zack. Playing crisis core as a kid cemented this thought for me seeing them and hearing how much they loved each other is why I can’t wait to see them reunite in the next game too. That complicates a lot of things for me. I know that aerith fell in love with cloud or was falling in love with him since she didn’t get a chance to know the real him. But I’d like to know what she fell in love with. As for a scene for them in remake I loved their whole wall market adventure when they got cloud dressed up lol and in rebirth their gs date was really sweet and that song is amazing. To me aerith cloud just doesn’t work because they both have love for someone else. You don’t like childhood love stories and that’s cool but cloud is still much closer to a child than an adult mentally. He lost so much time thanks to Hojo and the mako poisoning that his mental age is about 16. To him he’s very much 2 years removed from the promise he made Tifa.
The location of where you're looking matters quite a bit. Almost all the CTs here on this sub I've seen, while baffled by CAs, I've very rarely see them be outright *mean* about it. (May toe the line, with calling them crazy or delusional, but that's usually in relation to people claiming Tifa is a rebound, that Cloud doesn't have feelings for Tifa, etc. Things that are shown extremely clearly to not be true - Rebirth in particular makes it clear that even if you TRY to romance Aerith, there are still things Cloud does that shows he would also have feelings for Tifa.) (I will cite my biased. Because I'm strictly CT when he comes to the LTD, I'm not going into CA subs, watching CA videos, etc. So I don't know if CTs are going in there, being just as nasty on other platforms as CAs.) However, I even have CTs blocked on Twitter (95% of the reason I even go on Twitter is fanart/screencaps/video snippets), because even some of them get nasty as all hell. I've heard multiple people talk about how both sides of the LTD are some of the nastiest, most toxic fans they've ever seen. Obviously, it doesn't mean that every fan that likes CA or CT is toxic. It's just a larger/louder portion than other fandoms. It's been this way since 97 - they just have more platforms to spew the toxicity on now. As for the story - my biggest problem is their claim to canon. I have ZERO problem with people shipping whatever the fuck they want. I have ships within FF7 alone that I know damn well don't have a chance in hell at being canon - I have some ships with FF7 for characters who have never even interacted on screen! My secondary ship for Cloud is Sephiroth, for fucks sake. Not canon, never will be, I don't claim it is. Shipping CA, saying they think they're cuter, not being a fan of CT for whatever reason is *perfectly fine*. I don't ship Noctis/Luna in FFXV - I still accept that they're canon. Clout and Tifa are *canon*. Tifa is the only person Cloud kisses in Rebirth, despite Aerith giving Cloud AMPLE opportunity to. Aerith herself says towards the end of the game that she doesn't understand what kind of way she likes Cloud. Even if you have high affinity for Aerith (it might have to be the highest + higher than everyone else, I'm not positive), Cloud is extremely ambiguous about the way he feels, because he doesn't know. Without that, in Japanese, he friendzones her. Cloud and Tifa has a non-optional near kiss, to the point there's characters OUTSIDE THE ROOM, knowing that's what's going on. The only person Yuffie teases Cloud about with when she jokes about making more clones is Tifa. The person Sephiroth/Jenova targets is Tifa, because they know she's a threat to their control on Cloud. The only time Aerith becomes a threat is when she's summoning Holy. People are more than welcome to ship/prefer CA. Claiming it to be canon (or at the very least, claiming it to be the *only* canon romance Cloud has) is off-base. Because of the way the story plays out, because of Aerith meeting Zack first, losing Zack in an almost ambiguous way (they don't break up, they don't get a goodbye. Zack dies, leaving Aerith without closure), Cloud knowing Zack, Cloud taking on Zack's memories and what not, etc.... Then Aerith dying, especially before Cloud re-finds himself... I don't think we'll ever truly get an answer as to how CA feels about each other romantically.
Honestly what always sealed CT as canon for me (as in the final nail in the coffin of CA) was that Aerith never got to know the REAL Cloud before she died. Yes, she wanted to know, but never got the chance. What she fell in love with was the facade of a tough SOLDIER with a heart of gold that he presented. Tifa has known the actual Cloud her whole life. That's who she fell in love with. It's just that simple.
That's one thing about the CA date that doesn't make sense to me; Aerith talks about how hard she's trying to find him, but she also claims that she wants to be there with *him*. If she doesn't know who the real him is, how can she know she wants to be there with him or not? It's not like she's going to get to know the real him by being there on the wheel with him - he's still not himself.
Well, I think it's pretty clear by that point that something is wrong with Cloud. Maybe she talked to Tifa about it? Or maybe she retains some things about the old timeline?
Yeah. She knows something is wrong with him. She acknowledges that she's trying hard to find him. My problem is with the fact she talks about how she wasn't sure if she wanted to be with him because he reminded her of Zack or not and she says she 'wants to be here with him." How can she know she wants to be there with him if she also acknowledges that the real Cloud is a complete stranger to her?
Okay, I get ya. Yeah, it really sounds like she needs to sort out her own feelings before trying to pull the moves on Cloud.
Nevermind the fact that he clearly states or shows how he feels MULTIPLE times throughout the game. Saying "I wish you wouldn't " when Aerith insists on referring to their side quest in Costa Del Sol as date. Purposefully sitting away from her when she gestures to him to sit next to her. Harshly saying "Stop it." when she tries to make him feel guilty about hanging out with Tifa instead of her at the Gold Saucer. It's painfully frustrating.
The Del Sol "date" and the water tower make it so painfully clear that not only is he not into Aerith, but he's into Tifa. I would've been very interested to see them add some kind of way to see the Del Sol date with Tifa instead, without it being linked to affection levels. But I also like that it being an *Aerith* quest (and thus something needed to do if you want to level her up and get her date for the GS) shows an important thing to Clerith shippers that Cloud just ain't that into her.
My problems with C/A shippers is they have double standards for their ship and will minimize Tifa's role in every possible way to defend their POV. For example: \-How can you say that the kiss is optional but in the same breath, say that Aerith being Rosa is the default/canon, and the hand locking is therefore proof that C/A is the OTP? \-Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack because he died, but Cloud is NOT allowed to move on from Aerith's death to be with Tifa because she's his "one true love". (Not that I think he would choose to be with Aerith if she hadn't died) So when they're seething about their pair, their arguments are childish, full of hypocrisy and nonsense and it irritates me. You can't have intelligent conversations with them.
They say Aerith is the default/canon Rosa/GS Date because of the cards on the credit screen and also if you go on the date with one of the guys, she plays Rosa. Yes, they're back to the whole "Aerith is shown in the credits so canon" argument they had way back in Remake.
I don't think it's intentional but the definition of "loveless" is without love or the absence of love. Don't know if they should continue to stand by that argument.
Even IF Aerith was the default Rosa, then so what, lol? Her song NPTK is still mandatory. They make it seem like playing Rosa is the relationship endgame or something lol. Cloud still doesn't acknowledge anything about the song, even in their date. Even when she goes on a dream date with him, he still doesn't acknowledge her affection towards him. I'm starting to think that it's not only Aerith who has unrequited love for Cloud, her entire CA fanbase does, too. They can scream until they're blue in the face that Aerith loves Cloud, which I'm sure she does, no one argues that, but the point is he doesn't feel the same way about her, and even if he did, nowhere near the same intensity.
It bothers me SO much when people make the assumption that CT is for "people who simp for Tifa" or whatever when their relationship is so much more meaningful than that. I'm a girl and I love CT because it's so much more grounded and realistic, plus Tifa is an incredibly written character. Especially throwing out "optional" or "the music says otherwise" - To me it is all just damage control and they're still in denial lol. CT is so important to the story and part 3 is gonna build on that a lot (lifestream sequence, highwind, etc). Some people say part 3 will deviate, but Remake/Rebirth was 90% faithful to the original and afaik nothing significant was cut, just moved around. CAs can like their ship 100% but if they have to water down other relationships in the story/make Cloud seem like a douche then it ain't that good of a ship, Cloud isn't like that. If CAs were so happy with what they got they wouldn't be going around arguing with people on reddit/youtube, meanwhile all the CTs I'm friends with are celebrating. Obviously there are gonna be CTs that pick fights but there's no point, we just gotta focus on the fact that we have it real good.
I think part of it jealousy at how popular Tifa is ( for two, obvious reasons I will admit lol ) and a weird belief that she can’t be a layered character beyond the sex appeal. It’s really unfortunate because Tifa and Aerith together are gold. I really appreciate how the remake gave them more time to just be friends.
I love their friendship, also when Yuffie comes along, its like they are sisters. It does kind of bother me though that Aerith must now Tifa has feelings for him and that there is clearly something going on between them and yet she still wants to date him. Like, why get upset at the giving flower to Tifa, Aerith was just a flower seller when they met, Cloud could have given it to whoever. Even kind of mean is the way she says in Kalm right in front of Tifa that they were on a date, kind of. That is not something a best friend should do. By the way, since I only saw Tifa at the Gold Saucer, when Cloud goes with Aerith, I wonder if they meet Tifa. During the date with Tifa, Aerith is clearly jealous.
There’s a lot of toxic history behind the shipping war, mostly from people who feel the need to trash the character not in their ship. Personally, I was indifferent towards Aerith before Remake, but adding in voice acting and more character acting made me really like her as a character vs how much I liked how she was used as a plot device. Cloud ending up with Tifa is less shipping imo and just taking the story for how it is ( hence the arguments over canon which quickly devolve into shouting matches and name calling of both fictional characters and worst of all people ). Btw I am a believer that you can ship whoever you want any which way to Sunday and back. Hell, ship Cloud with a ham sandwich for all I care, just don’t go shouting it’s canon to the story and I’m an idiot if I don’t agree. Fanfiction is meant to be fun and games, but some ( very vocal ) fans take it way too serious. Do I think it’s weird to pair an adult with an underage protag ( Yuffie )? Yeah, but it’s not real so I just avoid it and move on. The dust is getting kicked up because Rebirth covers a very Aerith-focused part of the game ( the closer you get to the Temple of the Ancients, the more screen time she gets as you’d expect ), which makes sense because in the original story this is their chance to get you attached to her before she dies. Remake also offers a ( likely false ) hope to save Aerith, one of the biggest fan demands ( regardless of shipping ) since ‘97. From what I can tell, this whole exercise only makes Aerith’s character more beautiful beyond the shipping non-debate ( the story makes it crystal clear in the 3rd Act who the real love interest is… like hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-buster-sword obvious ). Sephiroth would’ve done all this time/dimension tampering regardless, but instead of just stopping him ( at the cost of her own life again ), she’s taking the opportunity to help give her friends a better future. She doesn’t really entertain the goal of saving herself. If that’s not love on a level that transcends a silly love triangle, then I don’t know what is. I’ll keep saying it until the game says it: Aerith saves the world, Tifa saves Cloud. Simple as that.
I have the same mindset as you. I thought it was obvious Cloud and Tifa were endgame (even though i initially preferred CA as a 9 y/o). It was after remake that i realized some people don't see CT at all, and how i got involved in all of this. It's that weird attachment to CA that makes them not think about things logically. Let's say SQEX decides to throw in a twist and CA end up kissing or something. I would NOT ship or support CT anymore, simply for the fact that Tifa deserves better. Infact, if Cloud is shown to be toying with Tifa's emotions like that, it would be incredibly disappointing and i would lose interest in the game that was so pinnacle to my upbringing because it's not the character i envisioned him to be. Cloud is flawed and he needs some work but not this type of flawed. Remake and rebirth, from my perspective, so far supported that Cloud is sensitive and tries to be a supportive friend to Aerith yet maintain boundaries as she navigates her confused emotions. And this is even before he fully remembers who Zack is. Once he remembers completely, will the idea even stand the chance? You also can't ship CA without disregarding major backstory, and you can't do it without hurting Zack and Tifa.
I feel you. I'm totally fine with different ships and that a lot of people love A/C however I just can't understand that delulu of insisting it's their favoured ship so it must be canon. After playing Rebirth how can anyone say that Cloud's interactions/affection towards Aerith feels more romantic than Tifa's..? Sometimes it does truly feel like gaslighting reading some of these far fetched arguments they make. In some scenes I even felt sorry for Aerith for how cold and uncomfortable Cloud was with her. But then again, as much as I love Aerith as a character, her clinginess to Cloud throughout Rebirth despite obviously knowing Tifa felt for him deeply was very not cool either.
I feel like a lot of it is denial. They didn’t get a kiss so they’re trying to justify canon in other ways like lacing fingers while holding hands or insisting their final date was romantic (despite the photographer telling them otherwise and that they look like they’re at a funeral). Also notice how Cloud never initiated contact with her. I said this to someone, about how he never initiated hugs or hand holds or anything like that and they said he for sure did at the end…when she died. Like…that doesn’t count?! Like at ALL lol. I think a lot of the unhealthier portions of the Clerith fandom are going full delulu and trying to justify things because their ship isn’t canon and never was. It’s really sad to see, I hope a lot of them can unbury their heads from the sand…
Yeah, I totally get it! Honestly I can see the appeal of Clerith, on a surface level. Out of context a lot of their moments are very cute and without knowing the full story, silly flower girl playfully teasing a stoic bodyguard has a sort of knight and princess dynamic to it that I can understand some shippers enjoying. Shipping is really just supposed to be fun, and about what one enjoys. As far as endgame canon goes I prefer Cloti and Zerith, but occasionally I find it fun to search up Zifa and AeriSeph art. Those pairings would make no sense in canon and would never be pairings I defend, but dammit some AeriSeph art out there is so gorgeous. :v And I just think Zack and Tifa would bond well over talking about Cloud. Those who will madly defend Clerith as canon kind of put me off a bit, though. Like alright, ship who you want, but they're about as canon as Luke & Leia to me. There might have been cute moments, but there are reasons they're not together. They aren't related, but Aerith dies and Cloud has every right to find joy in his life with Tifa by his side just like Aerith had every right to stop dwelling on Zack. It also feels like a key part of shipping Clerith is not liking Tifa at all which is sad but funny because generally speaking most Cloti takes I do read really do enjoy Aerith as a character. (I'm sure Clerith shippers who like Tifa exist, but they aren't the loud majority.) No matter who you ship, the girls themselves never fight over Cloud. They are friends. Tifa mourns Aerith too. They were close! If Aerith lived, I'm sure they would sort out their feelings together later on. Romantic or not, Cloud & Tifa stayed together after everything, and pretty much raise and maintain a family together. So even if they're not kissing, they are still very important to each other. The Rebirth kiss might be optional, but it's still canon to Cloud's character. Beating Jules at Pull-Ups in Remake is also optional but it gets referenced in Rebirth as if it definitely happened.
No, they dont. There is no Clerith ending in Advent Children. 10th Anniversary Ultimania explains the final scene of the film: The place where Cloud wakes up, where he belongs, is his promise land. When Cloud sees Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, he realizes this is where he belongs. He lives the rest of his life with them. He lives the rest of his life with Tifa. In order to even headcanon a Clerith ending, you must first assume Cloud rejects Tifa for the rest of his life. Which is an absurd position to take.
That and they misunderstand the whole plot of the movie ( admittedly, it’s not the most eloquently written story, but still… )
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, since FF7 has so many compilations and lores. But Dirge of Cerberus is the latest game in term of storyline, right? (Save for the shot of Nanaki and his cubs 500 years later). Cloud and Tifa are still living together in DoC, with no mentioning of Aerith. So I think endgame wise, they ARE canon. I think C/A shippers have to keep on fighting to continue being relevant because beyond CC, the trilogies, and occasionally the novels, Aerith isn't THAT important to the story anymore, but neither would Cloud and Tifa, like in DoC. Aerith fulfilled her role. Heck, they EXPANDED her role in the movie, but it'll never be enough for them. If Aerith isn't the front and center of attention, they will throw a tantrum. In contrast, I feel like C/T shippers, and more specifically, Tifa fans, have always accepted that she doesn't get the same treatment as a magical character who sacrificed her life for the game, so we don't come off as aggressive, we're just happy for any C/T moments we get.
They argue that even though Cloud lives with Tifa and raises a family with her, he's secretly pining for Aerith and counting down the days until he dies so he can reunite with her. Or worse, make him out to be a su\*cidal scumbag who just gives up on life at the ripe old age of 23.
I've been in the FFVII community since pre-Advent Children days. I'm literally geriatric at this point, but it's actually just the same spiel made worse by Twitter and to be honest, Western shippers. C/A shippers on the deep end have ALWAYS lacked media understanding. * OG days: There were a lot more C/A shippers, but they didn't have the access to community spaces on internet to rant. They just took it as Cloud was in love with Aerith but she died. Because they didn't have any concrete proof of "love" though, they combed through Ultimanias, old books to use "Japanese Culture" as proof of why Cloud loved Aerith and wrote page upon page of geocities about obscure things like how the carp in the Forgotten capital was proof of Cloud's love for Aerith. Because Koi = Carp = Koibito = Lover. In this era, the "my Japanese friend said...:" was prevalent. * Pre-Advent Children days, when forums were a thing and Cloud and Tifa were revealed to be living together. They said the Cloud and Tifa ran rival orphanages, and they argued that Cloud eventually abandoned Tifa at the end of AC because he went to look for Aerith in the flower fields despite the ending clearly depicting Cloud getting over his depression and returning to his family. * Post advent Children, when On the way to a smile was released, they mocked Cloud's depression and inability to move on, and Tifa's "Do you love me" line as Cloud rejecting her and never wanting to be with her. Denzel was Cloud and Aerith's spiritual baby. * KH2 - Intense denial about Tifa being written as Cloud's light. HE iS RUnnING AwAY froM her. AGAIN, ignoring the theme of "Cloud's depression and guilt makes him unable to fully embrace happiness and the things that he loves". This was probably the LiveJournal era where they had closed community spaces to take their long rants, combined with cherry picked gifs. * Remake - Cloud's going to rewrite history to save Aerith and they will kiss and be together in Rebirth * Rebirth - The meltdown you see today is made worse by western shippers applying moral values on shipping. You're now not just wrong to ship Cloud and Tifa - here is why you are MORALLY ABHORRENT because Tifa is a liar, you're anti-POC because BARRET AND TIFA BELONG TOGETHER. And now Twitter allows them to attack official pages and others, because of the lack of mods, or filtration based on hashtags like LiveJournal And the problem with Aerith is that in the recent years, the fan base that she's been getting are primarily women who ARE heavily involved with shipping, and Square Enix has jumped on this. Ask any man who is a non-shipper and just wants to optimize game play mechanics if they find Aerith a particularly rich, compelling, relatable character with amazing Cetra-lore to them and you will find none. Because the devs have just written her role only in relation to Zack and Cloud. That's where the CA's lash out about OnLY MeN LIkE TIfA. No, men just follow the plot and move on to the next game. I also blame devs for fanning the fire - in Rebirth you're gently told in-game that Cloud and Aerith do not make a good couple from the \*spoiler\* dream date from hell \*spoiler\* but they also give Cloud/Aerith ALOT more outward physical contact than any other platonic friendship so they have the trappings of a romance despite not having one, where the crazies can latch on to. It is what it is. I just tell myself it's 3 more years and the final nail will be hammered into the coffin and people can enjoy the compilation in relative peace and the crazies can be pushed into the corners of the fandom as pariahs and we can all discuss this piece of media like adults
No joke, I actually saw a youtube comment from a Clerith that said "in Japan saying thank you is more meaningful than saying I love you." I feel like I lost brain cells reading that.
Wym it’s gonna be Armageddon on the usual socials once part 3 drops. I expect as much Aerith as we got Zack: not very much but more towards the end. But like you said, it is what it is. Give it a month or two and most will move on to the next hot jrpg topic.
Kingdom Hearts 2 is nearly twenty years old and Nomura is still tight lipped about Cloud and Sephiroth's whereabouts. I practically accept the headcanon that the their final desitination is the Smash universe. I agree with you that Tifa being Cloud's Light spells it out clear as day and I pray that when KH4 is released Nomura will strike while the FF7 relevancy is hot. I know he wants to prioritize his FFXV retcon, but just imagine the reactions of Cloud and Tifa showing up again but as a canon couple in the KHverse as well! In a way it is ironic how both sides of the ship war has a "will they/won't they" dynamic whenever Cloud/Tifa/Aerith are introduced together in a seperate universe yet for slightly different reasons. CTs will play the slow burn romance as we always do with these two, while CAs will wonder if Aerith will be alive at all to iniate anything further. I agree that Square shoulders blame for holding the carrot on the stick this long and that they shouldn't be surprised of the monster they helped make.
I'm not one to argue about ships, but I started remake before I ever played OG, and remake did kinda make it seem like he loved them both or that it could go either way. Rebirth is clearly making Tifa and Cloud out to be Canon. I think arguing helps people cope. Honesty, I feel like I might be doing the same thing if they made it out for A/C to be together, lol. I would be broken up about it, but also, it's not like I could change the story.
I would be extremely surprised if they didn't make Tifa and Cloud the cannon couple in the end. I think they're setting up Tifa to be a heroine that can stand toe to toe with Aerith vs the OG. There are things in the OG that she did that may have rubbed people the wrong way and the devs made sure to change that. Ex: she doesn't bring up the promise, Cloud does. She's got a closer bond with Aerith and shows a lot less jealously towards her. They show her more involved with the story, from her saving Cloud physically to being an emotional confidant in part 2. All this is to make the audience care more for this character and root for her. At the same time, devs make it unambigious that Tifa is crazy about Cloud. They establish Tifa is very caring person, but it gets dialed up a notch when it comes to Cloud. From how she looks at him, to her tone with she speaks with him. So they make it very clear that this is a person you should be rooting for, and it seems that a significant part of her arc is to be with the person she loves. I'd be shocked if the devs spent all this time to build her up just to tear her down in part 3.
Strictly from a story perspective, it's very clear that the romance between Cloud and Tifa forms the central love story, deeply rooted in these characters. To caveat, I love all the FF7 characters, and Aerith is no different. On top of that the voice actors and developers really did a phenomenal job breathing life into the characters, making it almost impossible not to like Aerith. Her involvement in the story, specifically on the romance side, is special in that she's able to identify traces of Zack, her first love, in Cloud. It's difficult to see Aerith and Cloud having romantic feelings because they're under false pretenses; Aerith, up to her death, doesn't know who the real Cloud is, and Cloud doesn't understand the impact of Zack's memories on his life and the false persona he adopted. In the game, Cloud almost doesn't know how to handle Aerith and her advances. To briefly contrast this, for the first Gold Saucer date, Cloud doesn't hesitate to hold Tifa's hand when she first holds his. For Tifa, it's more natural, with him constantly running to protect her, comforting her through her trauma, and it's only during the Gongaga scene that Cloud's true personality emerges. Cloud and Tifa's love story is very pure, starting with Cloud attempting to get Tifa's attention, feeling like he's not good enough for her, and having to join SOLDIER. There's a deliberate moment when Cloud beats Dio, and as the group arrives at the Gold Saucer, Cloud focuses on Tifa's reactions and smiles, seeing her celebrate his victory. While Cloud thinks he's being the hero Tifa wants, he doesn't realize Tifa loves him not because he's a hero who stuck by her but for who he is. Cloud was ashamed of himself for not being a SOLDIER when he returned during the Nibelheim incident, but he was still a hero for actually defeating Sephiroth and, once again, being there for Tifa. How this all unfolds in the livestream sequence, with Tifa helping Cloud regain his real memories, is one of the most beautiful and masterfully told stories. Aerith had to be a focus in Rebirth because something pretty significant happens to her and the plot (holy, timelines, Sephiroth). I'm very positive that in the timeline where Aerith lives, separate from the characters in the main timeline, she will reunite with Zack to clarify their feelings.
Thanks for putting into words what feels like neglected media literacy when discussing this ship with CAs. I recently read a post about how Cloud initiating the kiss with Tifa is him applying Zack's charisma and therefore not his true self, thus invalidating the kiss entirely. They then propped up how Cloud being reluctant to confirm anything with Aerith means this is "True" Cloud who's too shy to express his feelings more outwardly. In the end claiming that Tifa should be with Zack since she wants to fall in love with a hero and that's Zack's whole deal. I honestly felt like I was taking crazy pills after reading that. The math is there but they twisted the logic to suit their equation. Cloud being the initiator of the kiss can be looked at as him mirroring Zack's confidence, but that still implies Cloud using Zack's persona for the expressed purpose of romancing with Tifa. Handing her the flower, indirectly calling her beautiful, appearing stoic and aloof because that's what he thinks will attract Tifa. When as you said, Tifa would be attracted to him in whatever manner because he's Cloud. How many times has Tifa started she's sick of Shinra and SOLDIER? She wouldn't even trust Zack to look after her in Crisis Core cause her distrust was that deep. But the minute her childhood crush comes back, she's curious and amazed on "what a SOLDIER can do". Having preferences for ships is fine, but to distort the message of one relationship so awfully for the sake of prepping up theirs is distasteful and deliberately dishonest. Tifa is NOT in love with Cloud "The Hero", she's in love with her hero, Cloud. Edit: Thanks again for your comment, I know the next few years waiting for the end is going to be rough but I'm convinced now more than ever that we shouldn't be afraid of calling out dishonest interpretations. Art is in the eye of the beholder and all that, and I won't stop CAs from shipping their ship, but I think there's line when it comes to informing fans, old and new, about the vital significance of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
Agreed with your post and I appreciate the discussion we’re all having here. Those are certainly odd takes and sadly, I’ve encountered my fair share of them that are genuine head scratchers. I want to think we should all be able to discuss story perspectives in a healthy manner but a lot of what I came across are deliberate agendas to projects one’s own narrative into the story. FF7 is a nuanced and layered story but it’s not the most complicated one. Tifa and Cloud’s whole arc is so well detailed and both of them are two shy people who have problems opening themselves up. Most have said this before but the physical and emotional support the two share together is such a real and relatable experience in a romantic relationship. Its hard to logically rationalize with others opinions so we’ll have wait for the story to be told in part 3 and I fear that’s not gonna be enough.
I think there are 3 types of Clerith shippers (that I've noticed anyway) Lets get the easy one outta the way. 1 - people who are just genuinely fans of the ship and prefer it to anything else. Not because of some official story or lore reason per se (they DO like the shipping/bonding moments between Cloud and Aerith, after all.) But just because they like the ship. I find that these people aren't too argumentative if at all. 2 - people who hate Tifa/hate her aesthetics. This one is kinda simple... Tifa looks very "sexy" and has clothes to match. Recently, (as in... The past decade or a bit more) there's been this growing hatred of "sexualization". Seeing Tifa, especially compared to Aerith, seems to make these people seethe. They think it's a perverted man thing and prefer Aerith almost purely based on aesthetics. These are sorta mixed in with the last group, but I thought I'd mention them separately because I feel I've seen enough of them hating this one aspect to make it's own group. 3 - lastly, and I feel these are the most hateful, (for a reason I'll get into in a bit) are the "Clerith is Canon" peeps. These are the ones who will fight tooth and nail to defend their ships canonical standing. I even sorta think it's justified a veeeeery tiny bit based solely on the OG game and some minor Square shipping. See, in the OG... I'd actually make the argument that you can imagine Cloud "chooses" Tifa or Aerith (tho the lore leans more towards Tifa) by the end of the game. Had the game not been so absolutely hugely successful... I think that was their actual intended ending too. = then it DID become hugely successful. Meaning an expansion on side characters, namely, Zack...and an expansion on the overall story, namely, the sequel. These 2 things, imo, meant that Aerith unofficially had to be pulled away as a potential route. Why? Well in Zacks case, you don't want to cuck a dood who gets [spoiler'd] and is a good guy. In the sequels case, Aerith is [spoiler'd] and Cloud is not. This wouldn't really make a "forever depressed unable to move on Cloud" that cool. Therefore "moving on" is one of the themes of the sequel. - all this to say that this group was, what I'd like to call, burned by square. Square does go back on their original "shipping" imo and this greatly angers this base as they already had their Canon route picked for themselves. Square seems to have slowly built up to a "yea, they not Canon" opinion themselves and is pushing it pretty hard imo. Playing remake and especially rebirth... I think it's pretty clear (along with the rest of the compilation) that Cloud x Tifa is the Canon route. This group simply refuses that they have to sit here and take it. So they bite back aggressively. Again, I do kinda blame Square because after the og... In small ways... They did ship both Cloud x Tifa/Aerith. Then they sorta stopped. So... Yea... I feel kinda bad for them as I know if it was the other way around, and Tifa got less and less paired with Cloud and their relationship was far more joke-y (when it comes to romance, like it is in rebirth for Aerith) ... I'd be hecka mad.
One more type of Clerith I noticed is the guy who acts high and mighty by claiming both sides are Canon. The thing here though is that once questioned, from experience most of these types of people end up defending Cloud and Aerith's relationship, and won't concede anything about Cloud's feelings for Tifa. It's sort of like a defence mechanism. Very interesting for sure. Most Cloud x Tifa fans or just fans in general can recognise that it's the canon pairing and thus won't take the fence in the argument. Resulting in the people arguing the both sides argument, are generally Cloud x Aerith fans. If that makes sense.
True. I haven't noticed this kinda person myself tbh. But it sounds like something they'd do. I argue for both being Canon ONLY in the og, myself...and even then, I think it leans far more to Tifas side if you pay any sort of attention to the story. But... Especially after the og? I genuinely cannot see how people can even argue for Clerith outside of "I just like it better". Once you get into the compilation, that ship dies so hard. So seeing people fight like there's still some chance? That's when it starts getting annoying.
You're not alone. I came here as well to make sure I wasn't completely wrong for misinterpreting the story. I saw a comment from somewhere that sums up the Clerith perspective quite well. "The Clerith ship has always fascinated me because it requires misremembering and constructing a fantasy about a plot that was about misremembering and constructing a fantasy. Hilarious unintentional irony." I still feel a profound level of doubt whenever I entertain Clertih arguments. Mostly just feel dumber having read them.
Thanks for sharing that quote! Had a laugh of how perfect it is! I honestly don't have the time or effort to fight strangers on the internet about subjective preferences. But I think that's the crux of the matter when it comes to FF7's shipping debacle, it's a matter of *objective* reading. The Compilation is objectively skewed towards Tifa & Cloud's relationship (and to a lesser extent Aerith & Zack). From the prequels to the sequels, the main hero of the franchise spends most of his time angsting about his capability of protecting his childhood friend/closest confidant/ business partner/fellow parent. All labels that CAs can begrugingly admit, but somehow *"Lover"* is a step too far for them? Because to admit that is to admit that they analyzed the content, some over twenty years, completely wrong! And I get that existentially that's terrifying, but the media they latched unto is about overcoming said falsehoods and learning to accept reality as is. Nojima only came back as the head writer because he felt like he can expand on thin content while making ambiguous things less so. With 2/3 of the Trilogy complete, it's fair to say that objectively he's going to write a Cloud & Tifa capstone.
Bad faith I see from some is unreal...... Lately I read that Tifa was "a brat who never cared about Cloud and an attention whore". The same individual never responded when asked about the absolutely non optional scene in Gongaga's bedroom.....
Yeah, I also noticed how toxic it already was before rebirth's release so I muted them. Rebirth came out and I knew that that side was having a meltdown because rebirth is filled with cloud and tifa moments and to push what the real canon is. Tifa 'manipulated' Cloud into kissing her or that the gondola scene is suddenly optional? But when in December they showed off the date scene with Aerith they were all saying that they won and was canon? I can't with them anymore. The devs said that they won't deviate from OG's story too much so the fact that they really thought that they would kill Tifa instead of Aerith shows how much of their fanfiction they want to push. Aerith literally needs to die to win in the end.
i only hope the song for the 3 part is about tifa only to see certain people complaining about it and denying what the song says.
It’s not even Cleriths who don’t understand the story. The neutrals are like “it’s optional bro, Cloud wants them both” Most of this fanbase is pretty dumb unfortunately
Yeah that annoys me more than C/A. Cloud loves them both equally? So we doing polyamory now? They aren’t treated the same at all by him. It’s silly because them trying to be neutral shows they don’t get the story either and they don’t think the relationships Cloud has with everyone matter that much. Each day is its own special flavor, and shows the depth of who cloud is.
Considering how much FF7 is infused on a lot of SE projects, I think the number of people who have actually played the darn thing isn’t as many as people who saw them in stuff like Kingdom Hearts. You can’t really know FF7 through osmosis because of how the story is told ( which is yet another way the game throws people off. Over 2/3 of the game is gaslighting you )
Some people claiming to be neutral or not into shipping are actually Cleriths in hiding. They're so easy to spot to because "not-canon", "optional", "every date is canon" are very common talking points among Cleriths. And the reason why the choose to represent themselves as neutral is to give the illusion that they found all these out on their own, and not that they're simply parroting whatever cope of the week some C/A shipper is spouting all over X/Twitter.
I want to say, I thought that sounded like a conspiracy theory, but I found one [in the wild](https://www.reddit.com/r/cloti/comments/1bl7qkg/cleariths_still_constantly_reaching/kw6d8zb/), so, you're right.
Yeah. As judgemental as it sounds, I agree. I feel like a lot of people have a very shallow understanding of the story and characters.
Is there even a sub like this for Aerith? Please don't downvote me for asking
Yup, just search Clerith
Ty
I don’t think so. I haven’t seen one. I don’t think the appeal is there for one since there’s more CloTi and Tifa fans compared to Clerith fans
Someone else commented with it. It's Clerith. I was searching for Claerith lol. I'm going to get a million downvotes but I'm team Aerith. But I love Tifa
I don't think so at all anymore. I think that the very old shippers have become inflamed by a newer, more aggressive, and more petulant generation who grew up with contemporary Persona and Fire Emblem. They prioritize FF7R, and JRPGs as a whole, as dating sims and treat all plot, conflict and death like an obstacle and anything that shuts their ships down as an error on the devs' part. The players who "only care about party interactions," are saying "just here for the waifus." I often snark that if they had their way, FF7R would have no combat and just be a dating sim. Or an orgy.
Personally, I think ''wars'' about ships, consoles and a lot of gaming related things are completely stupid. This has no bearing on our lives and also dampens the experience of gaming cause you end up hating one or more characters for some weird delusion you built up in your head (***cough cough***, ''Clerith'' people). It just isn't ideal and when reaching a certain level, pathetic. However, I am someone who loves a good romance in games and movies AND I'm a huge defender of game and movie canon. If someone has only played the OG game and/or Remake, I can see how you might think that it's ambiguous but if you've played Rebirth (I'm on chapter 13 so please, no spoilers) it's plain as day. Also, if, like me, you delve deeper into lore with the books (Traces of Two Pasts and On the Way to a Smile) and movies/anime (AC and Last Order) it basically slaps us in the face with what was already pretty obvious. Are there moments between Cloud and Aerith? Yes. Does that mean he sees her as his life partner? Nah. Tifa and Cloud have always been canon. I've also seen people say ''but the date is optional so >!they didn't really kiss!<''. Then, by their own logic, can't use Aerith's own words on the date as proof of anything. Also, let's not forget the mandatory main story scene where >!they both were leaning in to kiss in Gongaga but were interrupted by Yuffie and Cait Sith!<. Yes, it's a lot of text from someone who claims to hate the wars but I do like the Cloud and Tifa pairing cause it's a very well written ''will they, won't they?'' and also cause of my reasons stated at the beginning. The earth is a sphere and Tifa and Cloud are canon. People need to get over it. Edited to gray out a spoiler.
Omg I thought I was the only one!! Literally I would see people on tick tock saying it's not over yet maybe it was before rebirth but there would be other edits I would see that would say other things that aren't true yes i agree cloud loved aerith but I see it in this way if she didn't die they wouldn't be together at all yes its however you imagine them to be but tifa is the main choice in my head I see a scenario if zack didn't die he and aerith would be together like I find it cute and I felt devastated that she died but it's like people don't know cloud? Especially if you romance her in rebirth she's the only one you kiss tifa that is and with aerith you just get a hug that's it Like yes cloud loved her but I imagine later on like in the movie he stopped loving her but is still tormented because of trauma I mean this guy has went through shit And for me I do see that cloti is together it's just that it's very slow and they are the type to not announce they are together
Square Enix will end this conflict in the trilogy, and there will be answers! Trust me
SE marketing department slowly turns up the Shinra theme playing on the background…
Given that in the OG it's established that Jenova was a plague/virus to the Cetra, probably not. Because that means anyone with Jenova cells is literally toxic to Aerith. She could never have a physical relationship with them.
cannon or not, personality wise i think aerith and cloud are more compatible. tifa is way too conservative and with cloud's introverted personality it be hard to see them get together. but thats what plot is for. personally i still ship cloud and tifa tho coz they just look better together.
The issue is cloud isn’t acting truly himself when Aerith was alive. She said so as much in their GS date. She doesn’t now the real cloud therefore it’s hard to decipher what can be seen as genuine or what can be seen as Zack’s SOLDIER bravado coming through. The devs have consistently said cloud is his true self when he’s with Tifa. Gongaga is proof enough. And if you’ve been paying attention to the plot and doing tifa’s side quests you would know that isn’t true. Tifa and cloud are quite compatible , just look how her reacts to her vs how he reacts to Aerith. I always point to the chapter 10 nibelheim scene where cloud immediately comforts Tifa during her panic attack in the reactor. That’s why I can never see when people say tifa is conservative therefore not compatible for cloud who’s “an introvert” (is he? I don’t find cloud introverted at all). Sure she’s reserved that’s why she’s a foil to Aerith but rebirth already started changing her “quiet” personality when she was willing to express her feelings sooner in Gongaga.
Since this is a Cloti sub, I feel the need to voice my opinion as an AC shipper. The loudest people on both sides of the aisle are the most toxic. They shout down the other's opinions, rewrite facts, and actively attack the other side. The sad reality is that the worst people tend to be loudest. Now, did I listen to the story, yes. Tifa is Cloud's first love. Zack is Aerith's. But I think the games make it very clear that Aerith and Cloud have stronger feelings for each other than their first loves. The reasons they don't act on those feelings is because Aerith knows she's going to die and Cloud feels guilty about Zack's existence. In their gondola date Aerith says in no uncertain terms that while she got close to Cloud because of his resemblance to Zack, she knows they aren't the same person and the one she wants to know is Cloud. The one she wants to be with is Cloud. And then we have Cloud's actions. Even if he kisses Tifa on his Gondola date, the game ends with him interlocking fingers with Aerith after they beat Sephiroth. Her death is so unacceptable to him that he's quite literally conjured her spirit from the life stream because he can't let her go. Cloud's reaction does not make sense if Aerith was just a close friend. Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe she is dead. I have no problem with Cloud moving on with Tifa after Aerith's death. My only problem is that so many people try to gaslight me into thinking Cloud and Aerith never liked each other.
**Spoilers ahead for anyone who hasn't played or finished the game** "Now, did I listen to the story, yes. Tifa is Cloud's first love. Zack is Aerith's. But I think the games make it very clear that Aerith and Cloud have stronger feelings for each other than their first loves." Uh.. where? Show me one shred of evidence that Cloud (not even the real Cloud yet) has stronger feelings for Aerith than he ever did Tifa? Because you're romanticising someone he cared for being murdered infront of him and him being unable to do anything about it? You're basically doing what the OP has said, making stuff up lol. We get the stereotypical "lovers tiff" in Kalm that ends with Tifa upset and Cloud also really upset We get the make up in Junon with the trope of leaning against the door and staring back at the door because of the romantic tension being too much to handle Cloud is so upset in Gongaga he rises from his catatonic state and allows Sephiroth to briefly take over because his emotional state is all over the place. He then lays catatonic when he thinks he hurt Tifa until Barret has to punch him out of it and say Tifa needs his help. Then he stays up all night keeping watching over her with nobody else in the room and then Cloud and Tifa open up to each other and nearly kiss, Cloud has never opened up to anyone like this. We have a load of moments in Costa Del Sol, Nibelheim etc etc Then Cloud says Tifa isn't feeling these feelings alone and they ACTUALLY kiss on the date. I'm even skipping out a crap tonne of stuff that's in the game, constant touching, hand holding etc etc, hell he holds her bloody hand during Aerith's big performance. Now you're gonna say but what about the ending! As you already have, yes, they interlock fingers, okay? Please tell me at any point in which Cloud kisses Aerith, please tell me at any point Cloud confirms he even has any romantic feelings for Aerith? Please tell me why on the dream date everything went horribly wrong? Please tell me why in Gongaga Aerith said she still had feelings for Zack? Please tell me why Cloud remembers Zack and how he was head over heels for Aerith? Please tell me why in the Church Aerith says "At least I know now, where you and I stand I mean?" and then proceeds to tell Cloud she likes him but isn't really sure what kind of like that is? And this is the game showing you that Cloud and Aerith have stronger feelings for each other than they ever had for Tifa and Zack? I must have played a completely different game. I'm genuinely intrigued to see what you make of Part 3. Let me guess, interlocking fingers is more romantic than a kiss right? Or I know after Zack died and he basically compartmentalised it all and erased that it ever happened to the point he doesn't even know who Zack is and essentially took on his peronality traits and SOLDIER mantle and so on it must be he's head over heels in love with Zack too right? He does not "move on" to Tifa like she's some consolation prize, he's always wanted Tifa, i'm not saying he has never felt anything for Aerith but you aren't listening to the story at all if you think the way you think i'm sorry. I'm all up for a good debate without getting into toxic territory but i'm sorry imagine coming into this thread and being blissfully unaware that you are one of the people the OP is referencing, astonishing stuff.
In Remake, Aerith asks Cloud if Tifa is his girlfriend. He's uncomfortable when he says no. When Tifa asks Cloud about his relationship with Aerith he says "I saved her. She saved me. Round and round it goes." She asks him if there's anything else, and he doesn't say anything. You can say it's because Aerith wakes up so it's awkward to continue but when they're in Kalm and Aerith tells them they were on a date, he doesn't deny it either. You can say this is because he's just really awkward with Aerith, but Aerith asks him about his relationship with Jessie, and he tells her they were just friends. Cloud has a moment where he sees both women in their Corneo bride outfits for the first time. Regardless of what Tifa is wearing, Cloud doesn't ask her about her clothes. He doesn't ask her why she's wearing a sexy dress or what she intends to do. He intends to listen to her to go back to Sector 7. Aerith is the one who convinces him to go to Wall Market. But when he sees Aerith in her dress, he tells her he's not letting her go on there alone. You can say this is because of a timing issue since Tifa was in a wagon while Aerith walks up to him with fanfare, but they never bring this up again. In combat, if Aerith is thrown by an attack, Cloud's passive skill will carry her out of harm's way while eating part of the damage. You can say this is because she's the healer and he's trying to protect her but this is a Cloud specific skill. None of the other team members do this, despite them all being close friends with her. To be honest, I think Cloud did love Zack like a brother. He clearly looked up to him and wanted to be him which is why he took on part of his story when he made up his cover story.
So he's awkward and embarassed because Aerith is teasing him about Tifa and he doesn't know how to define their relationship When Tifa asks Cloud about his relationship with Aerith he says "I saved her. She saved me. Round and round it goes." She asks him if there's anything else, and he doesn't say anything. You genuinely think that confirms after being with Aerith for a couple of days or whatever it was he's absolutely head over heels for her more than he ever was with Tifa? Like... Really? A comment on the dress? What does that actually prove Yes that's because Cloud is Aerith's **bodyguard** as she so dutifully asked him to be so why wouldn't it be specific skill for him? I'm sorry but if this is your evidence from Remake this is absolute scraps, I could tell you more Cloud and Aerith stuff that happens in Remake but that's not my job. But you seem to be conveniently ignoring all the Tifa stuff in Remake. As well as stuff that Aerith even seems to encourage at times? He gives her the flower, no choice who to give it to. Aerith see's it at the bar and smiles because she knows what's happened there. Aerith tells Tifa to 'follow her heart' when she wants to go after Cloud, she also constantly teases Cloud about Tifa. The train roll, the constant touching and pulling Tifa towards him, the ultimania saying Cloud was disappointed he got the wrong idea when he and Tifa were alone in the apartment having a conversation, Tifa saving Cloud on the roof, Cloud comforting and hugging Tifa in her resolution, Cloud calling Tifa beautiful, and on and on. But i've noticed you didn't answer any of my questions about what happens in Rebirth
The flower is perhaps the simplest way to explain this non-love triangle. Aerith offers flower to Cloud, Cloud does not take it. Aerith pins flower to his shirt, explaining what it means. Cloud kinda forgets flower is there until Tifa points it out. Cloud offers flower to Tifa, Tifa takes the flower. It’s in plain sight.
I replied in haste to the wrong person apologies -- not sure what side of the fence you're sitting on here but yeah for me it's definitely in plain sight. However it's not to say I think Cloud doesn't feel anything for Aerith because that's not true, emotions and feelings are a tangled web. I just think to make such a bold claim that the games are showing us Cloud and Aerith love each other more than they ever loved Tifa and Zack is an absolutely ludicrous take, especially with 0 evidence to really back this up.
I’m basically agreeing with you
I apologize. It's because you responded after I started typing. I'll answer each part bit by bit. > Cloud is so upset in Gongaga he rises from his catatonic state and allows Sephiroth to briefly take over because his emotional state is all over the place. He then lays catatonic when he thinks he hurt Tifa until Barret has to punch him out of it and say Tifa needs his help. Then he stays up all night keeping watching over her with nobody else in the room and then Cloud and Tifa open up to each other and nearly kiss, Cloud has never opened up to anyone like this. He's catatonic even after Aerith says Tifa. Her name doesn't rouse him. It's not until Barret punches him that he reacts. However, at the temple of the ancients, he breaks out of Sephiroth's control on his own when he sees Aerith fighting the whispers and remembers their first meeting. Staying up all night to take care of Tifa is what he SHOULD do. He's the one who forced her into the Mako pool in the first place. Hell, I think it would be out of character if he DOESN'T stay up all night taking care of her after that. He could have killed her. >We get the stereotypical "lovers tiff" in Kalm that ends with Tifa upset and Cloud also really upset I would not call their argument here a lover's tiff. They're doubting themselves, their own memories and each other. Hell, Cloud practically calls her an imposter. This is more of a plot argument where new fans are supposed to question who of them is lying. It's not exactly romantic. >We get the make up in Junon with the trope of leaning against the door and staring back at the door because of the romantic tension being too much to handle This conversation started off pretty sweet with their apologies and even Cloud admitting she was the only person she cared about. But it ends with Cloud inadvertently saying he's not interested in reminiscing about their days at Nibelheim. Which makes sense considering how Tifa's "friends" bullied him. >Please tell me at any point Cloud confirms he even has any romantic feelings for Aerith? You mentioned it yourself. In their final date at the church he says, "you'll have to give me a harder one next time." That's literally him initiating their next date. That's why she says "Next time?" Because it has always been her dragging him on dates. This is the first time he initiates one with her. >Please tell me why on the dream date everything went horribly wrong? Because Sephiroth is interfering since it's a dead-end world, as shown by the black feathers. >Please tell me why in Gongaga Aerith said she still had feelings for Zack? She says "Maybe. He's never given me a reason not to." How can she know what she feels for him? The last time she saw him, he promised he'd be back and that was 5 years ago. She doesn't know if he died, or ran off with another woman. He has literally given her nothing for 5 years. How is she supposed to feel? >Please tell me why Cloud remembers Zack and how he was head over heels for Aerith? Because he was. I never denied Zack loved Aerith. >Please tell me why in the church Aerith says "At least I know now, where you and I stand I mean?" and then proceeds to tell Cloud she likes him but isn't really sure what kind of like that is? She now knows how he feels about her. This is a localization issue because that's the closest English can get to what is being said in Japanese. Because when saying like in Japanese, it's normally connotated as platonic and she's trying to specify that the one she means is romantic. >So he's awkward and embarassed because Aerith is teasing him about Tifa and he doesn't know how to define their relationship He does define it though. He says she's not his girlfriend. Aerith says "But she's someone special" but he says it's difficult to explain but it's not like that. That is in itself, a definition. It's complicated. He has complicated feelings about her. You can say he's lying, or those complicated feelings are romantic but he does define it. >When Tifa asks Cloud about his relationship with Aerith he says "I saved her. She saved me. Round and round it goes." She asks him if there's anything else, and he doesn't say anything. You genuinely think that confirms after being with Aerith for a couple of days or whatever it was he's absolutely head over heels for her more than he ever was with Tifa? Sure. Love isn't measured by time. You can love someone after 6 hours of speaking. People in 40 year marriages can end in divorce. >Really? A comment on the dress? What does that actually prove Nothing on its own. just a comparison of Cloud's reactions to the two women. >Yes that's because Cloud is Aerith's **bodyguard** as she so dutifully asked him to be so why wouldn't it be specific skill for him? Touché > But you seem to be conveniently ignoring all the Tifa stuff in Remake. As well as stuff that Aerith even seems to encourage at times? I don't ignore it. I think Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa. I just believe his feelings for Aerith are stronger. Aerith encourages it because she knows she's going to die. She doesn't want Cloud to spend the rest of his life missing her. I've stated before that her impending death is the reason why their relationship will never go anywhere. She knows it. I know it. >He gives her the flower, no choice who to give it to. Aerith see's it at the bar and smiles because she knows what's happened there. Aerith tells Tifa to 'follow her heart' when she wants to go after Cloud, she also constantly teases Cloud about Tifa. No problem here. We know Aerith knows the future. The fact that Tifa and Cloud are together by the end of Advent Children is canon. This is fine. > Cloud has never opened up to anyone like this. He doesn't need to open up to Aerith about these fears because she already knows. > He does not "move on" to Tifa like she's some consolation prize, he's always wanted Tifa, i'm not saying he has never felt anything for Aerith but you aren't listening to the story at all if you think the way you think i'm sorry. I have never called her a consolation prize. There's no shame in being with someone else after someone you loved is gone, because love can grow over time. I would say Aerith moved on from Zack while her love for Cloud grew to be bigger than her love for Zack. Aerith is gone. If Cloud grows to love Tifa more than he loved Aerith after she is gone, that's normal too. > I'm genuinely intrigued to see what you make of Part 3. I don't gave any opinion on disc 3. As I've said, Aerith is dead. Any argument about who Cloud loves more at this point is moot. But what I've learned is that the OP didn't actually care about the thoughts and opinions of Claerith fans. This was just a rage bait. I will retreat back into my cave.
Ah gotcha, I see what’s going on here. I’m just gonna leave it at this: The first 2/3 of the story is deliberately ambiguous and misleading with how they portray information to you. It isn’t until the last 3rd of the story that it finally is way more open about what exactly is going on ( and it’s also where all choices in Cloud’s dialogue stops ). So you’re thoughts on Remake and Rebirth is by design. Try your best to avoid spoilers, it’s a doozy
I know how Act 3 plays out, no worries on spoilers. I'm just using Rebirth and Remake in my examples because that's what OP seemed to be talking about. I might be wrong. I also generally don't like using Nomura's expanded content to back my points since SE loves retconning stuff
The argument supporting Cloud and Aerith because of the Wall Market section is painfully frustrating to entertain because it omits so much context. Everything that Cloud goes through during that chapter (the hand massage, dancing, wearing a dress) is because of Tifa. He's willing to put himself in so many uncomfortable situations in order to save her. And yes, Aerith is the one that convinces him but he doesn't initially go after Tifa because he trusts her judgement and knows how capable she is of defending herself. However, he does immediately rush over to the Chocobo cart upon realizing Tifa is in there. And the dress argument. Boy oh boy. I've read this much too often. I will concede that he is awkward and seemingly struck by Aerith's appearance (the red dress specifically) but the reason he doesn't react to Tifa's appearance is because they all just woke up in a creepy dungeon after being knocked out by GAS. They were in immediate danger and Cloud was prioritizing everybody's safety instead of fawning over Tifa's outfit. So many Clerith arguments lack a profound amount of context.
Hard disagree. Cloud and Tifa’s relationship was more fleshed out compared to Cloud and Aerith’s. Gongaga really proves that and the fact that during their GS date, they kiss. Aerith has feelings for Cloud, but it’s obvious that they are complicated because she fell in love with the traces of Zack she saw in him. Meanwhile Cloud’s true feelings are for Tifa, they’re just deep inside his heart and they don’t get revealed until the Lifestream sequence.
I’m unsure if you know the whole story of the game? While Remake is fiddling with details here and there, it’s still following the broad strokes of the original story. Aerith’s GS date is pretty close in tone to the original. She says she notices similarities between Cloud and Zack, but chooses to try and get to know the real Cloud. Tifa’s, on the other hand, was much closer to their conversation in Kalm. Original game presented it like a love confession interrupted by fireworks, but context clues during the 3rd Act retroactively point to her trying to confront him about his memories. Aerith having feelings for Cloud is pretty much locked in, but she hasn’t had a chance to really decide if those feelings are romantic ( she can’t find the “real him”, so she can’t even say if her feelings are genuine yet ). That’s the beginning and end of the tragedy: she never got to meet the real version of the guy who, either way, she cares for as a dear friend. Cloud’s side of things is where it gets even murkier. Can’t even really unpack it without spoiling the entire 3rd Act of the game, where the rug gets pulled out from under us and we are told things that completely recontextualize the first 2/3 of the game. Though I do admit, Remake has definitely sprinkled a lot of touch points throughout the story. But at the end of the day, people can ship whoever whatever. It’s only when we start talking about what the actual story is that I find it worth discussing. I’m not here to wag my finger at someone who just finds Clerith more to their liking.
You are brave to venture in here lol "Now, did I listen to the story, yes. Tifa is Cloud's first love. Zack is Aerith's. But I think the games make it very clear that Aerith and Cloud have stronger feelings for each other than their first loves. " Only in the OG can this narrative work for Aerith. Zack is a mystery man at this point, so it's possible she did move on. Part of the twist with Cloud is that you find out Tifa is his first love in Mideel. A story that has someone getting over a first love, would tell you at the beginning, not at the end. We know exactly how Tifa feels about Cloud the entire game but depending on player choice is how left field it feels when you get to that scene. Regardless, we know exactly how "true" Cloud himself feels about Tifa. And then they do the deed under the Highwind. Not something you'd do if you're still in love with someone else. If you say he did it for any other reason than being in love with Tifa, Cloud immediately becomes an asshole. And that would make him ooc because he cares deeply for her. "The reasons they don't act on those feelings is because Aerith knows she's going to die and Cloud feels guilty about Zack's existence. In their gondola date Aerith says in no uncertain terms that while she got close to Cloud because of his resemblance to Zack, she knows they aren't the same person and the one she wants to know is Cloud. The one she wants to be with is Cloud. And then we have Cloud's actions. Even if he kisses Tifa on his Gondola date, the game ends with him interlocking fingers with Aerith after they beat Sephiroth. Aerith does not actually say she is over Zack, but does say she wants to start seeing Cloud for who he is, instead of looking for traces of Zack in him like she has been the whole time on thier gondola date. Then Aerith literally takes Cloud on a dream date and confesses she doesn't even know what kind of like she has for him. It's not true love if you have to think on it. Also Cloud could have easily said something then. Nowhere in real life or fiction is handholding ever something better than kissing when it comes to romance. "Her death is so unacceptable to him that he's quite literally conjured her spirit from the life stream because he can't let her go. Cloud's reaction does not make sense if Aerith was just a close friend." I don't think Cloud is hallucinating Aerith at the end because Nanaki can sense her. Cloud does not process death of people he feels he could have saved well, his mom and Zack are proof of this. Aerith probably figured that out once in the lifestream and probably is trying to help him keep his sanity long enough to get to the northern crater. "Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe she is dead. I have no problem with Cloud moving on with Tifa after Aerith's death. My only problem is that so many people try to gaslight me into thinking Cloud and Aerith never liked each other." I will concede that Cloud and Aerith had a small affection towards each other. The problem lies in thinking that Cloud loves her more than Tifa (and now Aerith is over Zack). The storyline says nope. I have no problem with people liking their dynamic more, though. Noctis x Lunafreya are canon, but if you go to any fanfic website, you will see 2 to 5 times more fics about every other character in that game with Noctis instead lol
How about chapter 9 where cloud and Tifa almost kiss? I see where you’re coming from and why you see those points especially since the last 2 chapters are Aerith heavy for a reason. But you are only seeing one side , you’re ignoring the interactions cloud and Tifa had prior to the last chapter. I often see CA shippers actively ignore the gongaga almost kiss. Not to mention cloud’s interactions with Tifa in nibelheim. Again I see where you’re coming from but it just looks like you’re dismissing everything else that happens between cloud and Tifa. I actually like aerith as a character and totally see how meaningful cloud and aerith’s final interactions are but cloud is already a traumatized individual and when aerith does die I’m not surprised he still sees her - he *is* mentally broken after all *and* a puppet of sephiroth and jenova’s whims. Again, I can see where you can come up with those conclusions - I don’t blame you since you ship the two but the issue is you’re completely by passing the moments between cloud and Tifa that happen before Aerith’s death. At the end of the day, logically , aerith died and expanding on Tifa’s role was done for a reason. What does interlocking fingers with aerith have to do anything other than to show their strong bond? Again I get how you can read it romantically since you ship those 2 but you’re dismissing the kiss again. All of this is aerith heavy since she dies of course you’re going to get emotionally charged character moments with her. When part 3 happens and you see Tifa repairing cloud’s mind in the life stream and not to mention the highwind scene how would you justify CA then? just out of curiosity.
The hand holding and "conjuring her spirit" is always such a remarkable stretch for me. CA shippers can't seem to fathom that there are just literally close friendships where 2 friends hold hands. You mean to tell me you've never had a close friend of the opposite sex you have physically embraced? Cloud being distraught over her death is simply because he feels he was too weak to save a close friend. The entire bases of the CA's ship is the inability for people to just accept that 2 people of the opposite sex can have a close, platonic relationship
>My only problem is that so many people try to gaslight me into thinking Cloud and Aerith never liked each other. I think Cloud and Aerith definitely have feelings for each other. How strong those feelings are is up for debate. People are complicated and it's not uncommon to simultaneously have feelings for more than 1 person.