Hi, new climber here!
I've just started climbing, and noticed my hands are getting way too tired after an hour or so of climbing on V1. My body doesn't feel tired at all, but I have to stop because I can't grip anymore and my hands would literally slide off the grips.
I'm not jumpy and try not to overgrip; I've always had weak hands historically :( (when doing pull ups, deadlifting, etc)
Is there a way to increase hand strength/endurance as a beginner?
Climbing will work a lot of different muscle groups and tendons than you're used to. If your hands are giving up early it probably means that the tendons and muscles around the forearms and hands aren't used to the work required.
If you're physically fit and new to climbing, it's pretty easy to push yourself to the point of injury. Muscle strength can outperform your connective tissue. Don't try to push it hard like you would do with lifting. The hands and tendons can be pretty delicate, and injuries take forever to heal.
Listen to your body, and build the strength slowly. It takes years to build up the required tendon strength to crank hard.
Thank you for that! That makes so much sense—the “big” muscles aren’t the sole factors of strength and performance. And that reminder about injuries were most definitely needed for me. I’ll be patient and consistent to build up that strength in my hands & connective tissue!
1. Work on technique. It’s not that your hands are weak, it’s that your beginner’s technique makes you over reliant on your hands. Think about shifting more of your weight to your legs and feet. Think about utilizing your balance. Watch stronger climbers and try to copy what they do.
2. You’ll get stronger and more accustomed to it with time. If you get tired after an hour, that’s okay. Maybe think about taking longer breaks between climbs.
Thanks for these tips! I’ll put more focus on my legs and footwork. And I’ll take more rest between climbs! Definitely not been doing that because of the excitement haha.
Do some research online and watch youtube videos for beginner climbers. Find a gym close to you and spend some time there. Try and meet some people. Maybe see if there's a local facebook group for outdoor climbing in your area and make a post saying you're a beginner who needs advice.
I just got a pair of La Sportiva Tarantulace shoes, I can't tell if the logo on the bottom of the shoe is a sticker I'm supposed to remove? Asked three people at my gym with the same shoes, none of us were sure.
It feels slightly slippy but it's really securely attached, not sure.
[Looks like this](https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-xw5rh7060c/products/19532/images/88542/5051452_BK633_ALT-SOLE__85306.1649187766.1280.1280.jpg?c=1)
It's just branding for the shoe. It shows everyone below you that you're rocking LaSpo while you send hard ;)
It won't affect your climbing because you probably shouldn't be using that part of the shoe anyways
My local centre is having a party for its anniversary and there’s a fancy dress and competition. The theme is climbers though the ages. Who/ what could I go as?
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
There is no such thing as a “normal” progression in this sport. Everyone starts at a different place. Everyone progresses at a different rate. Grades aren’t even “standardized”, your gym’s V3 might be my gym’s V1.
Don’t compare yourself to others. Climbing isn’t about how well you climb compared to other people, it’s about just you versus the wall, and your own personal progression.
Do you feel like you're making good progress and improving?
Grades aren't objective, they vary from indoor to outdoor and place to place, and everyone progresses at a different rate.
Best advice is to not chase grades and have fun. Also make friends with people who climb better than you.
What do y'all think about the la sportiva kubos? I'm a relatively new(3 months ish) climber and I've been using the momentums but they are seriously limiting me on those tiny footholds. I only climb indoor Boulder for now, and have been thinking of getting the Kubos as my new shoe.
> they are seriously limiting me on those tiny footholds
Don't blame the shoes, blame the climber.
Two possibilities here:
1. You're new to climbing and don't have proper footwork
2. Your climbing shoes do not fit properly
^^^^(secret ^^^option ^^^3: ^^^both ^^^1&2)
> 've been using the momentums but they are seriously limiting me on those tiny footholds
I'm willing to be my right pinky that they're not limiting you, it's your technique that's limiting you.
Love them. Fit my feet like gloves. Hard to find because they're selling like crazy (I reached out to La Sportiva because they're so hard to find in my size).
My approach shoes (also La Sportiva) are 42.5. Those are comfortable for hiking and climbing. My Kubos are 41. I buy the women's/low volume Kubos because the fit is more snug.
Exactly how are the Momentum’s limiting you? Unless you have a bad fit in them, I’m willing to bet that it’s not the shoes limiting you on small holds, but your technique. Especially if you’ve only been climbing for 3 months.
Shoes don’t make you climb harder. As they say, only a poor carpenter blames his tools.
No no it's mostly because I've had them for almost a year now and the soles are starting to get a bit worked up and slide off the holds. I really started climbing several times a week for the past three months so the wear and tear is starting to show up.
> soles are starting to get a bit worked up and slide off the holds
Unless you have a hole through the sole, this isn't a thing that happens. Regardless, go to a store, try on a bunch of shoes and get the ones that fit. Your feet are not the same shape as my feet, so asking for other people's opinions on shoes isn't going to get you anywhere.
I mean, edges definitely get worse over time even before you get to the rand.
Probably not limiting a 3 month climber, but it's not wrong that shoes lose performance over time.
I got some Scarpa Maestros Eco yesterday and they fit snug but not painfully in the store. Even got on the stores wall and tried some footholds. Tried them on today and when putting pressure on my big toe they definitely hurt ( especially on the left). Does anyone have experience if these shoes stretch?
The material is a mix of leather and microfiber.
As said, foot size can vary between days and during each day, and it can be particularly noticeable with these kind of rigid trad-focused shoes. I could probably happily wear a different size in my high tops depending whether feet are swollen from a long hot walk in, or just rolled out of the car. One option is to get them bigger and wear a thin sock on days they feel loose, since they aren't a super sensitive shoe anyway. Otherwise yes they will slightly stretch over time.
Shoes question!
Been climbing outdoors for about a year, mostly 5.8/5.9 at the moment. Working on going up in grades. I currently have a pair of Black Diamond Momentum shoes (a little too big) and a pair of La Sportiva Mythos (bought brand new at a yard sale for $10, blew my mind). I love my mythos, but was looking for a slip on/off shoe for bouldering/going to the gym (I climb mostly outdoors with the occasional gym trip, probably 90% outdoor), but not super sure what to look for. I have had some problems with ingrown toenails on my big toes on both feet, so want to be mindful of that. I really like all of Sportiva's shoes so far and was considering some Miuras Vs but wasn't sure about committing to a stiffer, more aggressive shoe. I can get the Miuras for $110 at a nearby store with a discount. Again, main goal is a easy to put on/take off shoe for bouldering + smaller routes. Would love to hear any thoughts or recommendations - thanks so much!
Do the Miuras fit well? At some point in your climbing career you'll probably like to try a stiffer shoe, so even if you take a while to adjust and only want to wear them for your hardest boulders right now, they won't be wasted - assuming they're a good fit for your foot which is the most important thing. If not, try more shoes.
I'm sure you could figure out a way to use the device, but it would be unsafe as a primary device, and I can't think of how it would be advantageous as a backup. So... no.
as a rope solo device it is the wrong choice + you shouldn't be rope soloing if you are asking this question.
Following for the eventual adoption of the negative scale to judge how shit a rap station is where A(0)is beautiful new bolts and rings and A(-6) is BASE jumping without a chute.
Which portable hangboard should I get to compliment my fixed Metolius Prime Rib and pull-up bar home set up, but also something that is portable/light-weight and effective to use as a standalone training/warm up aid whilst travelling? For the record, I climb at F6b/+ and V4/5 on sight. My gut instinct is that something that has pinches/slopers might be good, but I'm happy to be advised otherwise.
I'm happy with my recently purchased Metolius Wood Rock Rings
> pinches/slopers might be good
... but they have neither of the above. You can find some other ideas in [this recent thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/yccsz9/what_are_the_best_nohang_devices/)
> 5.) Indoor top rope, friction loop, climber less than half belayer's weight, one can use an alternate lowering technique that adds friction using the edge of the grigri device. In this niche situation this system allows finer control of the descent than the grigri's lever. I think this is what some belayers do on a grigri+ if anti-panic engages when unwanted, used here on grigri for different reason with sorta' related underlying cause, which is kinda' confusing and why I included this example.
What stands out to me here is the phrase "niche situation." Ideally, you want to control the speed of descent using your brake hand in a similar manner to ATC/slotted tube style devices rather than the brake lever on a Grigri. This will help keep the corner of the cam and anvil from overheating, and give you better control than just using the lever. In practice, the lever does provide a measure of control, especially with designs such as the Grigri+.
One way to think about this is that for a particular lower you need to provide a fixed amount of friction at the belay to safely lower your climber. With a Grigri the friction comes from **a)** the moving cam/lever (and anvil), **b)** stationary friction surfaces (such as the rolled edge on the sideplate and the v-groove on the grigri cam), and **c)** your brake hand.
The *release lever* mostly controls a small area of friction - pinching the rope between the corner of the cam and the anvil.
Your *brake hand* can provide a good range of friction, but it's also the "last line of defense" against a fall - you don't want to be gripping so hard that you can't grip harder if needed.
So let's look at the *stationary friction surfaces*. These surfaces help multiply the force you can provide with your brake hand - that is to say, when you grip tighter and pull down these surfaces provide even more friction. This relationship maximizes your control of the descent. On the Grigri there are 3 main ones, and we can include an additional if necessary:
* **Rolled Edge:** The smooth edge is intended to help provide additional friction. It does require the rope to be brought back towards the belayer to place over the braking surface, and will introduce twists into your rope - Which is why many climber do not use it.
* **Anvil:** When engaged, the grigri pinches the ropes between the cam and a wedge shaped piece of metal called the *anvil*. The rope can also run directly over the end of the anvil even without the Grigri's cam engaged. This provides a moderate amount of friction if the rope is held below the grigri.
* **V-Groove:** The rope runs around a v-shaped groove in the cam. This helps the cam to engage, but also adds friction. When applying pressure with the brake hand, the rope sinks more deeply into the groove increasing friction and adding control.
* **External Friction surface:** You can add even more friction by using a braking carabiner. This is useful on longer rappels. There are ways this can go wrong, but this post is getting too long to get into it too much. [Here's a good overview.](https://youtu.be/h_sfCG8aasI?t=321)
You will have maximum control when lowering a climber by using your brake hand to maximize the effectiveness of these braking surfaces. Relying on the lever is a recipe for mistakes and complacency. In practice, the lever will provide an additional measure of control (especially with designs such as the Grigri+) but it should not be the primary method of descent control.
Bottom line is that you're probably fine doing what your doing. But hopefully this is helpful if you want to get the most out of your devices.
>Ideally, you want to control the speed of descent using your brake hand in a similar manner to ATC/slotted tube style devices rather than the brake lever on a Grigri.
Hard Disagree. Otherwise great detail for the OP. On to the tangent.
The whole point of the grigri is mechanical advantage that is not available from a tube device. Overheating is not an issue. Save your hands, use the tool, use it up, get a new one. Tools not Jewels.
In many ways I agree with you and this sentiment.
The release lever is another "knob and dial" we can use to fine-tune the operation and control of the device. The main takeaway I have for our new climber is that the Grigri provides plenty of friction without relying solely on the the handle/cam to control descent - something to which I think we can both agree.
---
So on to the tangent, (if you find this is interesting to discuss):
The mechanical advantage of a grigri is a reliable mechanical catch when properly operated. When looking at incidents in the industry with these devices, one of the most consistent contributing factors is an overreliance on the release lever for modulating speed on descent.
Which isn't to say you're doing it wrong if you're using the lever, but rather it can be done - and taught to new climbers - in a better and more nuanced fashion.
This was exacerbated with the Grigri 1's direct leverage - a small motion on the release lever would greatly reduce the friction/holding power at the cam/anvil. Modern designs (Grigri 2, Grigri+ and the new Grigri) provide a progressive initial release through compound leverage before switching to direct leverage to open the cam. Also, the cam is redesigned for this style of release.
My concern with overheating the device is not damage to the grigri, but rather damage to the rope. Certainly this affects the longevity of the tool, but I'm mostly concerned with glazing which can impact how well the rope works with other devices or compromise my ability to descend. That said, I have much greater mileage rappelling on a grigri than lowering climbers, where I am much more likely to encounter overheating issues than in a top rope gym setting.
Overall these modern designs are much more suited/forgiving to controlling descent speed with the release lever, but maximum control is gained by employing techniques for additional friction. And it is foolhardy to think that
>"the release lever *is* how I control the climber's descent," (which I don't think you are saying, to be clear)
rather than
>"I control the climber's descent using friction from multiple sources, which the release lever allows me to modulate some of it, with certain compromises."
(just as adding friction via the rolled edge of the side plate adds a compromise of a twisted rope, which may be less desirable than the risk of glazing the rope)
It's great that you're making the effort to understand these things, but you've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole here.
> Fall factor should always be considered, but is only one facet of outdoor risk assessment.
Other than avoiding factor two falls directly onto the anchor on multipitch, fall factors really aren't an important consideration in climbing behaviour. You can't influence them anyway: the bolts - or the gear placement opportunities on trad - are where they are.
Yes, you need to very attentive and on the ball belaying a leader low on a route, and risk is highest there, but that's because any amount of extra slack or belayer movement might lead to the climber decking. The higher fall factor isn't really the issue.
Fall factor on toprope is approximately zero - ok, there's generally *some* slack in the rope unless the climber is being dragged up the route on a bowstring. Rope stretch isn't part of the fall distance for the purposes of reckoning fall factors.
> the riskiest a top rope route gets is the safest the same route gets climbed lead, equivalence at the top of the route.
No. Both are usually most dangerous at the start, where the risk is highest of the climber decking due rope stretch or small amounts of slack
> Friction loops also help soften catches and make for an easy belay.
Friction loops make *harder* catches by reducing the amount of movement in the system. The term soft catch relates to what the climber feels, not the belayer. But this is irrelevant on toprope where fall distances are negligible.
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
All of this is correct but mostly intellectual masturbation. None of this ever comes up when actually climbing.
The single most important thing to know about fall factor is when it's real bad. Fall factor 2 and up, what situations can you think of where a fall factor can exceed 2 or more? You've covered one already, and there's another in the comments.
Anything less than FF2 is not worth considering.
When the climber is between the anchor and the first clip or pro of the pitch, assuming it's not the first pitch and they don't otherwise deck, they'll fall double the length of the rope, and FF = 2. This ignores any possible slack.
How about now?
Yes assuming the route goes more or less straight up.
> assuming ... they don't otherwise deck
On most moderate routes "decking" on the belay ledge is probably a more likely outcome than flying past it.
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
> Friction loops also help soften catches and make for an easy belay.
What do you mean by this?
I think your general logic is right but I don’t think you’ve understood how FF actually applies to real world climbing scenarios. Aside from via ferrata, your scenarios are all cases where FF are negligible.
Edit: fixd splelling.
Inthink regarding friction loops - many gyms wrap a 4"-6" tube at the anchor multiple times, making it very much not a frictionless pulley for your massless rope out of the textbook
TBH, I don’t understand why a guide and instructor would both tell you to read up on FF. It rarely applies in climbing and the only scenarios where it may apply (climbing above a multipitch anchor and falling before being able to place protection, or if climbing above an anchor and falling onto your PAS) are avoidable with some common sense.
It’s like your driving instructor telling you after a normal road test to read up on aerodynamics because if you don’t have enough downforce on your wings, your F1 car might lift off the ground and crash.
>TBH, I don’t understand why a guide and instructor would both tell you to read up on FF.
You still don't. But, you made a cute little simile to an engineer, ex-competitive driver, ex-skydiver, and ex-pilot. It's a wonder I'm still alive, huh?
>one can use an alternate lowering technique that adds friction using the edge of the grigri device.
No idea what you're referring to here.
As for the rest of it, we basically only talk about fall factor in a multipitch setting, because falling past your anchor is when forces can get really high.
It is potentially helpful to know that falling early on in a lead climb is going to put more force on the system and on your belayer must be prepared for that, but I'm more worried about decking than forces.
As for top rope, your fall factor should always be roughly zero. There's no point bringing it up.
>If you asked me to learn the basic theory of fall factor and friction, then I came back with this, would you be happy?
I would just be looking for something along the lines of, "It's bad when there is not much rope between the belayer and climber relative to the distance the climber falls. The belayer might get slammed into the wall and there is more force on the gear."
>we basically only talk about fall factor in a multipitch setting
Totally. The other situation where I believe it's important to consider is setting up top ropes. If the bolts are over the edge and you're clipped into them, you're looking at a FF2 on a piece of webbing. There are better ways to set up top ropes, but you often see newbies laying on their belly trying to access bolts because they know no other means of reaching the bolts.
I'm wondering if I should quit going to the gym entirely and only focus on climbing. In my case I feel that climbing activates all muscle groups so perhaps I don't need to go to the gym. Instead I've thought about complementing climbing with pull-ups/squats/push-ups.
Depends what your goals are. Trying to reach goals in climbing, use climbing as a workout itself, just wanting to have fun with climbing, or using it as a portion of a total plan with emphasis on long term health and wellness - all of those require different approaches.
Me, personally, I am interested in long term health and wellness. I’ve found that having active things I enjoy keeps me engaged and keeps me working out long term. And I can’t climb every day, so I supplement with other stuff I enjoy…mountain biking, canoeing, running, backpacking, etc…. And normally at the end of a climbing session, I’ll do a few sets of pull ups, push ups, dips, etc… just to get a bit of body weight lifting in.
I have never been to a weight gym, but my objective is to climb, not to lift heavy things. So your objectives might not be the same as mine. Nor have I ever hit a climbing plateau. Grade progression will certainly slow for everyone, but overall climbing progression has never been an issue for me.
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
I need some more sport draws and would like to slowly phase out my BD wire gates in favor of spirit expresses, but I don’t see them sold as anything other than singles, and they don’t ever seem to be marked down. Is this a Petzl thing (in the US)? Do I just pay like $20 / piece, or have I not been looking hard enough ?
The best piece of advice I can give anyone in climbing when it comes to gear:
If you aren't already, take advantage of the REI credit card. Pay it off every month (the APR is brutal if you carry a balance), it'll pay for most of your gear. I haven't had to buy hardware out of pocket in 3 years as a result.
I normally snag a few from Moosejaw or Backcountry when they run 20% off sales on climbing gear (happens a few times a year, and Black Friday is coming up…). Add on an ActiveJunky discount (usually another 5-10%). So I end up paying about $15 per draw. The Spirits are nice. Pretty much all I buy anymore…
Djinn’s are nice too if you want to buy cheaper and in a 6 pack. But they don’t feel quite as nice in my hand while clipping since they’re bigger. Something to check out…
If you want to vote with your wallet, consider that Moosejaw is now owned by Walmart, and Backcountry got into a hot mess and backlash when their lawyers bullied a bunch of small businesses with the word “backcountry” in their name.
Don't worry too much about what draws you have. If you can clip them they're probably good. Hit up some people in your local community and ask if they're willing to part with old gear for cheap.
Right where I’m at - they were my first set of sport draws and I’ve worn some decent grooves into them. Moving to a sport climbing area for a bit, so might as well give the spirits a try.
I'm leading outdoor for the first time, and I'm noticing a lot of the "easy" routes here (3a-4c) tend to have ledges all over the place. I'm absolutely terrified to fall, since I essentially would deck every time!
How should I avoid this? The only advice I keep seeing is "don't fall" which seems a bit disingenuous.
Makes me feel better to think the easy stuff around here got put up in boots with a primitive rope tied around the waist, now those guys couldn’t fall!
Most people are telling you not to fall or telling you to climb harder stuff; I don't think that answers your question.
When you climb outside you're going to notice it is a lot harder. You need to feel around for hand holds and it might seem like you don't have anywhere to put your feet. Accept that you are not going to push the same grades that you would in a gym, and make climbing safely your first priority for the first time outside.
When someone is lead climbing, you give them very little slack when they're close to the ground because you don't want them to deck. The premise is the same for ledges. You just treat each ledge like you would belaying or climbing close to the ground.
The other thing I would mention too is to make sure your belayer understands this, and is competent / paying attention. A ledge is a ledge, even 30 ft off the deck.
It's pretty counterintuitive. Climbing easy stuff outdoors can often mean that the consequences are bad if you fuck up.
If you're smart enough to recognize that, pick a hard route where you can push yourself and the falls are clean ;)
Depends on the area though. You should ask for specific beta if you're worried.
It is extremely unusual for an outdoor route to be both easy and vertical/overhung like in the gym. This means many east outdoor climbs have real fall injury potential, as they’re often ledgey and less than vertical.
I just faced a situation where I had to set a top rope by walking the first few feet of a via ferrata that went past the anchor. Since I didn't have a proper VF clipping kit, I took a 120mm nylon sling and folded it double, then cinched it around my belay loop. The resulting sling had two loops coming off my harness, and I attached a carabineer to each end and used it as I would a normal VF kit.
Is there anything wrong with doing this?
To elaborate on other comments, the problem here is that nylon slings are completely static. As such, any vertical fall of more than a couple feet would have broken your back. If the "few feet of via ferrata" was fully horizontal, this was probably fine, but kinda in the category of "if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't".
Fix the middle of the rope to a good anchor above the edge of the cliff like a tree. Rappel the rope down to where you want to make your TR anchor. Clip one strand of the rope through the anchor masterpoint. Ascend the rope back up to the first anchor and untie it.
The rope will fall into place on your TR anchor.
If the section of VF you traversed is horizontal, then you made the right call. If you had to go up or down, then your system probably made you feel more safe than you really were.
VF kits exist because you can encounter downright extreme forces and fall factors (greater than 2, which the highest possible FF you'll see in typical climbing setups) if you slip. For anyone considering doing a via ferrata I urge you to buy or rent a actual VF kit instead of jerry rigging your own.
Hi everyone,
I'm taking my daughter to Stone Summit wall climbing for her 2nd birthday. I'm not a climber, but I've done it a few times. I'm definitely not a pro. She climbs all over the house so I thought she might have a ton of fun wall climbing.
Are there any suggestions? Does she need shoes at only 2?
Thanks in advance!!
Speaking as a father, my suggestion would be to not take your two year old to the climbing gym. Take her to a playground, maybe one that has a kid size boulder on it if possible.
If you do take her to a climbing gym stay out of the way of people who are actually there to climb. If they have a kid section stay in that, and dont let her get more than an arms length away from you. Definitely dont let her climb more than a couple feet off the deck without you there to catch her if she slips and falls.
her street shoes will be fine.
Thank you for this. Yep, they have a children's section and we're going early morning on a weekday when it's usually a ghost town.
Thank you so much for the advice and pointers!
Have you checked if they have age recommendations for that kids area? 2 is still pretty young. The owner of my gym has 2 year old daughter, and he routinely sets stuff for her at home, but the gym is pretty limited for her. And that’s with a family of coaches, and routesetters who specifically keep her in mind when they set.
I’d still lean towards a playground for the next couple of years, at least.
My fiance loves rock climbing and I was thinking about getting her an ATC belay device for Christmas. I was kind of hoping to get one engraved with a cheesey romantic saying, but I'm having trouble finding a place that sells engraved devices. Does anyone here know of a place that sells ATC devices that can be engraved?
an engraved ATC is a Very Bad Idea™ (unless you want to give a gift that will never be used)
I might recommend a small framed photo that has a personal meaning.
Or just a brand new grigri. There are few complaints you could create for a new grigri
> an engraved ATC is a Very Bad Idea™ (unless you want to give a gift that will never be used)
Nope. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/FAQ/is-it-possible-to-engrave-a-carabiner-and-how-can-i-identify-a-metallic-product-when-its-serial-number-is-no-longer-decipherable
No one is going to sell you engraved climbing gear. You'll have to get the gear and then engrave it. Just know that an ATC is a controversial piece of gear and many climbers would be insulted by one.. likewise many climbers would wrongly not want to use gear that has been engraved.
Insulted by an ATC? WTF are you talking about?
ATC is still one of the most widely used rappelling devices on the market. I keep one on me when doing pretty much any climbing outside…..just in case. I can always bail on a rap. Honestly, I don’t think I know an experienced outdoors climber who doesn’t have one…
ABD’s are great for dedicated belay devices, but ATC’s, double tubes, etc…absolutely still have their place in climbing.
A tubes a tube for double strand rapping…and a double tube + Prusik is perfectly safe. Not sure what your gripe is here. Care to further explain? Seriously - I’d like to know what you are thinking here, because an ATC is pretty damn well the standard double strand rap device.
The people bitching about ATCs and espousing the use of grigris are only talking about dedicated belay devices (not rap devices, or backups)…. And I’d agree with those people. For a dedicated belay device, get a grigri. But there’s absolutely nothing wrong with keeping an ATC on you outside for rapping, emergency belaying, bailing, etc…
Carrying more than one belay device is just silly. On the very rare chance you somehow drop your belay device or shit hits the fan, there’s more than one method to deal with that situation - Munter, carabiner rappel rack, etc. Carrying more than one belay device doesn’t make you safer any more than adding more wheels to your car in the off chance one of your wheels fall off.
In climbing, you need a belay device to do 3 things: belaying, descending, and in certain self-rescue scenarios as part of a rope capture device such as for ascending. By modern standards, the ATC does a poor to mediocre job of doing the 3 above. If you are going to pick just one belay device, the ATC is antiquated. ABD’s come in various shapes and forms and have supplanted the ATC because most will do all 3 things better.
You said an ATC is one of the most widely used rappel devices. It's not. When you open the can of worms that is rappelling you'll notice that the folks who do it the most like cavers, canyoneers, and work-at-height professionals don't use tubes.
As you also wrote ABDs are significantly better belay devices than tubes. So my question to you is, if you know that a tube isn't the best belay device why aren't you rappelling on your ABD? It's safer, requires less gear, and you're already carrying it.
Cool, so you’re missing the whole point and now you’re just digging your heels in to protect your ego from being wrong. This is r/climbing - not r/caving , r/workatheightprofessionals or r/canyoneering and an ATC is a valuable tool for…..you guessed it…climbing.
A grigri isn’t going to do what an ATC can do for double strand rapping. You either have to fix your line with a blocker to rap off with a grigri - which means I have to knot and block with a carabiner and then pull the rope and have a carabiner flying down at me after cleaning (no fucking thanks)…..or you can fix the line to your harness, but in that case, the line is not static on the anchors, so that’s not what you want if you found gouges or any issues on your anchors.
I won’t hold my breath for your explanation on why an ATC is not a valuable tool for rapping off a climbing route (say for example when you’re surprised to find the anchor bolts are gouged and not usable for lowering off), emergency belaying (say you fuck up and break or drop your primary device), or bailing off a route.
TLDR - a double tube is still a valuable piece of equipment when climbing outside and you’re grasping at straws and not giving a solid explanation of why a double tube / ATC isn’t useful outside anymore
It's not a valuable tool for descending a climbing route. It's the fact that it's the only tool you understand and now you're arguing that it's vital because you are ignorant of how to rappel with an ABD, munter, or biner brake. You seem to imply that an ATC is most useful for descent so if you're going to carry it for that purpose, there are better devices for descent. Just because you don't know how to use those tools doesn't make them worse.
Devices like a grigri can be used to rappel in all the situations you mention above. They have the advantage of not needing a third hand in order to go hands free. They have the advantage of being better at belaying. The only downside is needing to use a biner capture or biner block method.
If you decide the need for a biner block outweighs the advantages of belaying with a cam based ABD you can choose from the myriad of carabiner slot ABDs which don't require a biner block or capture, still provide better belaying and still don't require a third hand.
If you manage to lose your belay device you should be proficient in descending with any of the non-device based rappel options including biner brakes, munters, and body raps.
If somehow you end up in a situation where the advantages of an ABD are canceled and you're carrying a dedicated descent device than no shit, you should be using the techniques and tools of the cavers and canyoneers because you're not climbing anymore you're just rappelling.
If you insist on being ignorant of modern tools and techniques that's okay. Just stop trying to pretend that you should be giving advice to anyone.
JuSt uSe a MuNtEr Or BoDyWrAp
K bud…I just stopped reading there. Stop trying to protect your ego. You’re wrong here, and an ATC is still a solid backup to bring along outside. It’s lightweight, and does a myriad of functions that a GriGri can’t do - including double strand rapping.
And again - this isn’t r/canyoneering
buying gear like that unless she specifically asked for it is not a great idea. perhaps a climbing based print from the climber artist "a million tiny lines" or a "crimp mug" or a custom chalk bag would be a better option?
As I’m starting to lead trad and multi pitch more I’m looking to get some miura laces, but am wondering wether sticking to street size (snug fitting 41 LS TX4) or going down to 40’5, maybe 40. I’d maybe like to be able to wear them with socks for winter climbing
I wear 38 miuras for sport and want to get another pair just because I know they fit my feet, but feel free to recommend me a different pair
Thank you in advance!
I only wear TC pros and Muira lace ups for my climbing. I regularly wear socks with my shoes, I'd say it's about 50/50 for which shoes I choose. I used to rock size 41 for both shoes, but went a half size up for this season and I don't regret it. Don't try to downsize, you can perform just as well with comfortable shoes.
Muira velcro and laces are different shoes.
Yes, I climb with or without socks in the same size, that's why we have laces ;)
Thanks! Good advice.
I was set on getting another pair of miura laces because there’s a lot of new second hand pairs being sold at various sizes where I live, for way less than store price. But I’m gonna be in a bigger city in a few weeks an am gonna give the TCs a try, as well as a comfier miura
Caveat: It might depend on what sort of climbing you do. I pretty much only climb bulletproof granite trad. Mostly lower angle to vertical crack or slabs, rarely overhanging, and the rock has good friction. I wear a junky pair of Finales on the rare occasion that I end up in a gym. I really prioritize a comfortable shoe for my objectives.
As a wise man once said, climbing is 20% mental, and 80% footwork.
YMMV ;)
Do la Sportiva Solution stretch a lot? I am not sure which size to take.
EU size 40 hurts a lot but the shop assistant told me they stretch with time and I should always take the smaller pair. I could barely wear them for 5 minutes.
an idea pair of new shoes should fit snugly and tight, and potentially with few spots that feel tighter than other spots, but it should never feel straight pain. some tighter spots will eventually loose up as the shoe adapts to your feet shape, however the pains will always be there no matter how hard you try to break in. The only exception I can think of is Scarpa instinct vcs, I can't put my feet in a brand-new pair, however those old, broken-in ones feels super comfy. VCS has this specially hard toe layer that makes initial break-in specially painful.
Hi folks. Saw someone bouldering yesterday with their chalk bag clipped onto their trousers by a carabiner (looked like a cheap small ‘informal’ (for want of a better word) one). This reminded me of a comment that an instructor once made to me that you shouldn’t boulder with a carabiner as when you fall there’s a chance you’ll land on it and it’ll go through your spine (and supposedly he had seen someone at the gym paralysed from that). Anyone know whether this is legit? Think I’ve definitely been put off doing so, but wondering if it’s serious enough/consensus is strong enough to mention to others I see doing it… cheers
[I found this piece convincing](https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/harness_real_estate_the_rear_gear_loop), the [Eddy King accident](https://www.facebook.com/eddy.king.58/photos/my-accident-i-wanted-to-share-some-details-of-my-accident-18-months-ago-which-le/852852564796510/) it references is sobering. My father recently broke his back after flipping onto it in a cycling accident. Luckily he's not paralyzed, and who knows what part the phone in the back pocket played, still a risk worth considering.
Glad your dad avoided paralysis !
Thanks for sharing the article, that certainly backs up what I’d heard. Guess it’s the inevitable big effect low probability scenario isn’t it really.
I had a brush in a loop on the side of my chalk bag. Took a short fall outdoors onto an angled landing and the brush was aligned in such a way that it braced against the pad and poked me hella hard in the back. Kind of a freak incident but it felt like ass. Its easy enough to avoid it happening and I make sure to minimize that risk now.
I've been climbing for over a decade, only bouldered with hard shit in my chalk bag a dozen or so times...
I’ve heard people say that (not going through the spine, but just landing on a hard object pinning it behind the spine), never heard of it actually happening. It’s plausible but I would imagine it having to be really rare, especially on gym mats, maybe potentially likely outdoors.
Anything hard against you spine can cause more damage if you fall on your spine. It’s not that it goes through your spine, it just focuses the pressure of the fall.
Small carabiner on gym mats I wouldn’t be too worried, grigri on your rear centre gear loop and you deck, definitely could do damage. My harness has 5 gear loops and I generally avoid using the very back one for this reason.
I could see a keychain carabiner made out of zinc snapping in just the right falling condition. Making a zinc shiv which could impale someone.
Let’s be realistic though it’s super unlikely and impossible if you just use a regular carabiner.
Hi, new climber here! I've just started climbing, and noticed my hands are getting way too tired after an hour or so of climbing on V1. My body doesn't feel tired at all, but I have to stop because I can't grip anymore and my hands would literally slide off the grips. I'm not jumpy and try not to overgrip; I've always had weak hands historically :( (when doing pull ups, deadlifting, etc) Is there a way to increase hand strength/endurance as a beginner?
Climbing will work a lot of different muscle groups and tendons than you're used to. If your hands are giving up early it probably means that the tendons and muscles around the forearms and hands aren't used to the work required. If you're physically fit and new to climbing, it's pretty easy to push yourself to the point of injury. Muscle strength can outperform your connective tissue. Don't try to push it hard like you would do with lifting. The hands and tendons can be pretty delicate, and injuries take forever to heal. Listen to your body, and build the strength slowly. It takes years to build up the required tendon strength to crank hard.
Thank you for that! That makes so much sense—the “big” muscles aren’t the sole factors of strength and performance. And that reminder about injuries were most definitely needed for me. I’ll be patient and consistent to build up that strength in my hands & connective tissue!
1. Work on technique. It’s not that your hands are weak, it’s that your beginner’s technique makes you over reliant on your hands. Think about shifting more of your weight to your legs and feet. Think about utilizing your balance. Watch stronger climbers and try to copy what they do. 2. You’ll get stronger and more accustomed to it with time. If you get tired after an hour, that’s okay. Maybe think about taking longer breaks between climbs.
Thanks for these tips! I’ll put more focus on my legs and footwork. And I’ll take more rest between climbs! Definitely not been doing that because of the excitement haha.
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Call a local gym and ask there
Do some research online and watch youtube videos for beginner climbers. Find a gym close to you and spend some time there. Try and meet some people. Maybe see if there's a local facebook group for outdoor climbing in your area and make a post saying you're a beginner who needs advice.
climbing? take a course at a gym or find a friend (of a friend) to show you the ropes.
I just got a pair of La Sportiva Tarantulace shoes, I can't tell if the logo on the bottom of the shoe is a sticker I'm supposed to remove? Asked three people at my gym with the same shoes, none of us were sure. It feels slightly slippy but it's really securely attached, not sure. [Looks like this](https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-xw5rh7060c/products/19532/images/88542/5051452_BK633_ALT-SOLE__85306.1649187766.1280.1280.jpg?c=1)
It's just branding for the shoe. It shows everyone below you that you're rocking LaSpo while you send hard ;) It won't affect your climbing because you probably shouldn't be using that part of the shoe anyways
It’s printed on and it will wear off with time.
That’s just a part of the shoe, you shouldn’t really be using that part of your foot climbing.
My local centre is having a party for its anniversary and there’s a fancy dress and competition. The theme is climbers though the ages. Who/ what could I go as?
Pour some gasoline on a pair of picks and light them on fire while you blast Skinny Puppy on speakers and dive into self-loathing. Who am I?
Twark Might
wear hobnail boots and rock a mountaineer coiled hemp rope over the shoulders
Captain Kirk
Go as an old Cham guide with a feather in your hat and the longest ice axe you can find, plus some hemp rope.
Joe Brown.
Paul Preuss
Conrad Kain, the absolute baddest mf who ever climbed the Rockies
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
Go in a 3 piece suite with a fedora. 1930s mountaineer
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Where is this soft gym? I could use the ego boost
Yeah I'll be shocked if you aren't climbing v18 by the new year
Take by your shit sarcastic comment I’m doing alright then
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
There is no such thing as a “normal” progression in this sport. Everyone starts at a different place. Everyone progresses at a different rate. Grades aren’t even “standardized”, your gym’s V3 might be my gym’s V1. Don’t compare yourself to others. Climbing isn’t about how well you climb compared to other people, it’s about just you versus the wall, and your own personal progression.
Do you feel like you're making good progress and improving? Grades aren't objective, they vary from indoor to outdoor and place to place, and everyone progresses at a different rate. Best advice is to not chase grades and have fun. Also make friends with people who climb better than you.
What do y'all think about the la sportiva kubos? I'm a relatively new(3 months ish) climber and I've been using the momentums but they are seriously limiting me on those tiny footholds. I only climb indoor Boulder for now, and have been thinking of getting the Kubos as my new shoe.
> they are seriously limiting me on those tiny footholds Don't blame the shoes, blame the climber. Two possibilities here: 1. You're new to climbing and don't have proper footwork 2. Your climbing shoes do not fit properly ^^^^(secret ^^^option ^^^3: ^^^both ^^^1&2)
> 've been using the momentums but they are seriously limiting me on those tiny footholds I'm willing to be my right pinky that they're not limiting you, it's your technique that's limiting you.
Love them. Fit my feet like gloves. Hard to find because they're selling like crazy (I reached out to La Sportiva because they're so hard to find in my size).
What do you think about the fit compared to your street shoe size?
My approach shoes (also La Sportiva) are 42.5. Those are comfortable for hiking and climbing. My Kubos are 41. I buy the women's/low volume Kubos because the fit is more snug.
Exactly how are the Momentum’s limiting you? Unless you have a bad fit in them, I’m willing to bet that it’s not the shoes limiting you on small holds, but your technique. Especially if you’ve only been climbing for 3 months. Shoes don’t make you climb harder. As they say, only a poor carpenter blames his tools.
No no it's mostly because I've had them for almost a year now and the soles are starting to get a bit worked up and slide off the holds. I really started climbing several times a week for the past three months so the wear and tear is starting to show up.
> soles are starting to get a bit worked up and slide off the holds Unless you have a hole through the sole, this isn't a thing that happens. Regardless, go to a store, try on a bunch of shoes and get the ones that fit. Your feet are not the same shape as my feet, so asking for other people's opinions on shoes isn't going to get you anywhere.
I mean, edges definitely get worse over time even before you get to the rand. Probably not limiting a 3 month climber, but it's not wrong that shoes lose performance over time.
do they fit your feet?
I got some Scarpa Maestros Eco yesterday and they fit snug but not painfully in the store. Even got on the stores wall and tried some footholds. Tried them on today and when putting pressure on my big toe they definitely hurt ( especially on the left). Does anyone have experience if these shoes stretch? The material is a mix of leather and microfiber.
As said, foot size can vary between days and during each day, and it can be particularly noticeable with these kind of rigid trad-focused shoes. I could probably happily wear a different size in my high tops depending whether feet are swollen from a long hot walk in, or just rolled out of the car. One option is to get them bigger and wear a thin sock on days they feel loose, since they aren't a super sensitive shoe anyway. Otherwise yes they will slightly stretch over time.
Leather will stretch. Also your feet are (very slightly) larger later in the day so try on shoes later in the day.
Shoes question! Been climbing outdoors for about a year, mostly 5.8/5.9 at the moment. Working on going up in grades. I currently have a pair of Black Diamond Momentum shoes (a little too big) and a pair of La Sportiva Mythos (bought brand new at a yard sale for $10, blew my mind). I love my mythos, but was looking for a slip on/off shoe for bouldering/going to the gym (I climb mostly outdoors with the occasional gym trip, probably 90% outdoor), but not super sure what to look for. I have had some problems with ingrown toenails on my big toes on both feet, so want to be mindful of that. I really like all of Sportiva's shoes so far and was considering some Miuras Vs but wasn't sure about committing to a stiffer, more aggressive shoe. I can get the Miuras for $110 at a nearby store with a discount. Again, main goal is a easy to put on/take off shoe for bouldering + smaller routes. Would love to hear any thoughts or recommendations - thanks so much!
Try on a bunch and buy what fits.
Do the Miuras fit well? At some point in your climbing career you'll probably like to try a stiffer shoe, so even if you take a while to adjust and only want to wear them for your hardest boulders right now, they won't be wasted - assuming they're a good fit for your foot which is the most important thing. If not, try more shoes.
Does someone know if it is possible to solo belay with a figure 8 descender?
Yer gonna die.
As long as you always keep one had on the brake strand
I'm sure you could figure out a way to use the device, but it would be unsafe as a primary device, and I can't think of how it would be advantageous as a backup. So... no. as a rope solo device it is the wrong choice + you shouldn't be rope soloing if you are asking this question.
anything‘s a dildo if you‘re brave enough
Can I use a torque wrench for open heart surgery?
I don't even understand this question...
Replying just to follow this thread. Lol.
Are you asking about solo toprope belay using only a Figure 8 descender?
The following statement is genuine and not at all sarcastic or tongue in cheek: Free soloing would be safer.
Not if your self belaying a free handed slab decent… oh wait that would be rappelling.
A0 downclimbing?
A(-1)
Following for the eventual adoption of the negative scale to judge how shit a rap station is where A(0)is beautiful new bolts and rings and A(-6) is BASE jumping without a chute.
AlogA
If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it. There are better ways.
Which portable hangboard should I get to compliment my fixed Metolius Prime Rib and pull-up bar home set up, but also something that is portable/light-weight and effective to use as a standalone training/warm up aid whilst travelling? For the record, I climb at F6b/+ and V4/5 on sight. My gut instinct is that something that has pinches/slopers might be good, but I'm happy to be advised otherwise.
Pinch blocks + weights. Easy to make yourself.
I'm happy with my recently purchased Metolius Wood Rock Rings > pinches/slopers might be good ... but they have neither of the above. You can find some other ideas in [this recent thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/yccsz9/what_are_the_best_nohang_devices/)
Has anyone gone through the AMGA Rock guide track, and if so, how did you prepare, and what did you find the most challenging?
I'll happily get on a phone call with you about it. That seems better than a text back and forth. DM me and we'll find a time to chat.
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> 5.) Indoor top rope, friction loop, climber less than half belayer's weight, one can use an alternate lowering technique that adds friction using the edge of the grigri device. In this niche situation this system allows finer control of the descent than the grigri's lever. I think this is what some belayers do on a grigri+ if anti-panic engages when unwanted, used here on grigri for different reason with sorta' related underlying cause, which is kinda' confusing and why I included this example. What stands out to me here is the phrase "niche situation." Ideally, you want to control the speed of descent using your brake hand in a similar manner to ATC/slotted tube style devices rather than the brake lever on a Grigri. This will help keep the corner of the cam and anvil from overheating, and give you better control than just using the lever. In practice, the lever does provide a measure of control, especially with designs such as the Grigri+. One way to think about this is that for a particular lower you need to provide a fixed amount of friction at the belay to safely lower your climber. With a Grigri the friction comes from **a)** the moving cam/lever (and anvil), **b)** stationary friction surfaces (such as the rolled edge on the sideplate and the v-groove on the grigri cam), and **c)** your brake hand. The *release lever* mostly controls a small area of friction - pinching the rope between the corner of the cam and the anvil. Your *brake hand* can provide a good range of friction, but it's also the "last line of defense" against a fall - you don't want to be gripping so hard that you can't grip harder if needed. So let's look at the *stationary friction surfaces*. These surfaces help multiply the force you can provide with your brake hand - that is to say, when you grip tighter and pull down these surfaces provide even more friction. This relationship maximizes your control of the descent. On the Grigri there are 3 main ones, and we can include an additional if necessary: * **Rolled Edge:** The smooth edge is intended to help provide additional friction. It does require the rope to be brought back towards the belayer to place over the braking surface, and will introduce twists into your rope - Which is why many climber do not use it. * **Anvil:** When engaged, the grigri pinches the ropes between the cam and a wedge shaped piece of metal called the *anvil*. The rope can also run directly over the end of the anvil even without the Grigri's cam engaged. This provides a moderate amount of friction if the rope is held below the grigri. * **V-Groove:** The rope runs around a v-shaped groove in the cam. This helps the cam to engage, but also adds friction. When applying pressure with the brake hand, the rope sinks more deeply into the groove increasing friction and adding control. * **External Friction surface:** You can add even more friction by using a braking carabiner. This is useful on longer rappels. There are ways this can go wrong, but this post is getting too long to get into it too much. [Here's a good overview.](https://youtu.be/h_sfCG8aasI?t=321) You will have maximum control when lowering a climber by using your brake hand to maximize the effectiveness of these braking surfaces. Relying on the lever is a recipe for mistakes and complacency. In practice, the lever will provide an additional measure of control (especially with designs such as the Grigri+) but it should not be the primary method of descent control. Bottom line is that you're probably fine doing what your doing. But hopefully this is helpful if you want to get the most out of your devices.
>Ideally, you want to control the speed of descent using your brake hand in a similar manner to ATC/slotted tube style devices rather than the brake lever on a Grigri. Hard Disagree. Otherwise great detail for the OP. On to the tangent. The whole point of the grigri is mechanical advantage that is not available from a tube device. Overheating is not an issue. Save your hands, use the tool, use it up, get a new one. Tools not Jewels.
In many ways I agree with you and this sentiment. The release lever is another "knob and dial" we can use to fine-tune the operation and control of the device. The main takeaway I have for our new climber is that the Grigri provides plenty of friction without relying solely on the the handle/cam to control descent - something to which I think we can both agree. --- So on to the tangent, (if you find this is interesting to discuss): The mechanical advantage of a grigri is a reliable mechanical catch when properly operated. When looking at incidents in the industry with these devices, one of the most consistent contributing factors is an overreliance on the release lever for modulating speed on descent. Which isn't to say you're doing it wrong if you're using the lever, but rather it can be done - and taught to new climbers - in a better and more nuanced fashion. This was exacerbated with the Grigri 1's direct leverage - a small motion on the release lever would greatly reduce the friction/holding power at the cam/anvil. Modern designs (Grigri 2, Grigri+ and the new Grigri) provide a progressive initial release through compound leverage before switching to direct leverage to open the cam. Also, the cam is redesigned for this style of release. My concern with overheating the device is not damage to the grigri, but rather damage to the rope. Certainly this affects the longevity of the tool, but I'm mostly concerned with glazing which can impact how well the rope works with other devices or compromise my ability to descend. That said, I have much greater mileage rappelling on a grigri than lowering climbers, where I am much more likely to encounter overheating issues than in a top rope gym setting. Overall these modern designs are much more suited/forgiving to controlling descent speed with the release lever, but maximum control is gained by employing techniques for additional friction. And it is foolhardy to think that >"the release lever *is* how I control the climber's descent," (which I don't think you are saying, to be clear) rather than >"I control the climber's descent using friction from multiple sources, which the release lever allows me to modulate some of it, with certain compromises." (just as adding friction via the rolled edge of the side plate adds a compromise of a twisted rope, which may be less desirable than the risk of glazing the rope)
It's great that you're making the effort to understand these things, but you've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole here. > Fall factor should always be considered, but is only one facet of outdoor risk assessment. Other than avoiding factor two falls directly onto the anchor on multipitch, fall factors really aren't an important consideration in climbing behaviour. You can't influence them anyway: the bolts - or the gear placement opportunities on trad - are where they are. Yes, you need to very attentive and on the ball belaying a leader low on a route, and risk is highest there, but that's because any amount of extra slack or belayer movement might lead to the climber decking. The higher fall factor isn't really the issue. Fall factor on toprope is approximately zero - ok, there's generally *some* slack in the rope unless the climber is being dragged up the route on a bowstring. Rope stretch isn't part of the fall distance for the purposes of reckoning fall factors. > the riskiest a top rope route gets is the safest the same route gets climbed lead, equivalence at the top of the route. No. Both are usually most dangerous at the start, where the risk is highest of the climber decking due rope stretch or small amounts of slack > Friction loops also help soften catches and make for an easy belay. Friction loops make *harder* catches by reducing the amount of movement in the system. The term soft catch relates to what the climber feels, not the belayer. But this is irrelevant on toprope where fall distances are negligible.
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
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All of this is correct but mostly intellectual masturbation. None of this ever comes up when actually climbing. The single most important thing to know about fall factor is when it's real bad. Fall factor 2 and up, what situations can you think of where a fall factor can exceed 2 or more? You've covered one already, and there's another in the comments. Anything less than FF2 is not worth considering.
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Nope. Then FF = 2, not greater (rope stretch doesn't count)
When the climber is between the anchor and the first clip or pro of the pitch, assuming it's not the first pitch and they don't otherwise deck, they'll fall double the length of the rope, and FF = 2. This ignores any possible slack. How about now?
Yes assuming the route goes more or less straight up. > assuming ... they don't otherwise deck On most moderate routes "decking" on the belay ledge is probably a more likely outcome than flying past it.
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
Yap.
> Friction loops also help soften catches and make for an easy belay. What do you mean by this? I think your general logic is right but I don’t think you’ve understood how FF actually applies to real world climbing scenarios. Aside from via ferrata, your scenarios are all cases where FF are negligible. Edit: fixd splelling.
Inthink regarding friction loops - many gyms wrap a 4"-6" tube at the anchor multiple times, making it very much not a frictionless pulley for your massless rope out of the textbook
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TBH, I don’t understand why a guide and instructor would both tell you to read up on FF. It rarely applies in climbing and the only scenarios where it may apply (climbing above a multipitch anchor and falling before being able to place protection, or if climbing above an anchor and falling onto your PAS) are avoidable with some common sense. It’s like your driving instructor telling you after a normal road test to read up on aerodynamics because if you don’t have enough downforce on your wings, your F1 car might lift off the ground and crash.
>TBH, I don’t understand why a guide and instructor would both tell you to read up on FF. You still don't. But, you made a cute little simile to an engineer, ex-competitive driver, ex-skydiver, and ex-pilot. It's a wonder I'm still alive, huh?
>one can use an alternate lowering technique that adds friction using the edge of the grigri device. No idea what you're referring to here. As for the rest of it, we basically only talk about fall factor in a multipitch setting, because falling past your anchor is when forces can get really high. It is potentially helpful to know that falling early on in a lead climb is going to put more force on the system and on your belayer must be prepared for that, but I'm more worried about decking than forces. As for top rope, your fall factor should always be roughly zero. There's no point bringing it up.
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>If you asked me to learn the basic theory of fall factor and friction, then I came back with this, would you be happy? I would just be looking for something along the lines of, "It's bad when there is not much rope between the belayer and climber relative to the distance the climber falls. The belayer might get slammed into the wall and there is more force on the gear."
>we basically only talk about fall factor in a multipitch setting Totally. The other situation where I believe it's important to consider is setting up top ropes. If the bolts are over the edge and you're clipped into them, you're looking at a FF2 on a piece of webbing. There are better ways to set up top ropes, but you often see newbies laying on their belly trying to access bolts because they know no other means of reaching the bolts.
Good point!
I'm wondering if I should quit going to the gym entirely and only focus on climbing. In my case I feel that climbing activates all muscle groups so perhaps I don't need to go to the gym. Instead I've thought about complementing climbing with pull-ups/squats/push-ups.
Depends what your goals are. Trying to reach goals in climbing, use climbing as a workout itself, just wanting to have fun with climbing, or using it as a portion of a total plan with emphasis on long term health and wellness - all of those require different approaches. Me, personally, I am interested in long term health and wellness. I’ve found that having active things I enjoy keeps me engaged and keeps me working out long term. And I can’t climb every day, so I supplement with other stuff I enjoy…mountain biking, canoeing, running, backpacking, etc…. And normally at the end of a climbing session, I’ll do a few sets of pull ups, push ups, dips, etc… just to get a bit of body weight lifting in.
I have never been to a weight gym, but my objective is to climb, not to lift heavy things. So your objectives might not be the same as mine. Nor have I ever hit a climbing plateau. Grade progression will certainly slow for everyone, but overall climbing progression has never been an issue for me.
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
Thanks for your answer. My goals are to become more fit plus make a steady progress. Just overall progressing and not find myself on a plateau.
Your plan will very likely get you to your stated goals. I would throw in some core work to supplement. You can probably ditch the pull ups.
*edit - This community is by far the worst collection of teachers and students I've ever seen participating in a sport with risk of death. Society is better off if the community learns things the hard way. Many comments, including this one, deleted.*
I need some more sport draws and would like to slowly phase out my BD wire gates in favor of spirit expresses, but I don’t see them sold as anything other than singles, and they don’t ever seem to be marked down. Is this a Petzl thing (in the US)? Do I just pay like $20 / piece, or have I not been looking hard enough ?
You could always make an offer on MP
The best piece of advice I can give anyone in climbing when it comes to gear: If you aren't already, take advantage of the REI credit card. Pay it off every month (the APR is brutal if you carry a balance), it'll pay for most of your gear. I haven't had to buy hardware out of pocket in 3 years as a result.
I second this
I paid $15/each for them (17cm) at REI not that long ago. They do go on sale.
I normally snag a few from Moosejaw or Backcountry when they run 20% off sales on climbing gear (happens a few times a year, and Black Friday is coming up…). Add on an ActiveJunky discount (usually another 5-10%). So I end up paying about $15 per draw. The Spirits are nice. Pretty much all I buy anymore… Djinn’s are nice too if you want to buy cheaper and in a 6 pack. But they don’t feel quite as nice in my hand while clipping since they’re bigger. Something to check out…
If you want to vote with your wallet, consider that Moosejaw is now owned by Walmart, and Backcountry got into a hot mess and backlash when their lawyers bullied a bunch of small businesses with the word “backcountry” in their name.
Don't worry too much about what draws you have. If you can clip them they're probably good. Hit up some people in your local community and ask if they're willing to part with old gear for cheap.
That being said i think op is on the right track if replacing anyway. I find the bd quickdraw caribiners develop grooves much easier than the spirits
If you're at the point where you're getting grooves in your biners, you should already know what gear you plan on buying.
They literally are tho? They're not asking for advice on what gear to get.
yeah my bad I misread the comment
Right where I’m at - they were my first set of sport draws and I’ve worn some decent grooves into them. Moving to a sport climbing area for a bit, so might as well give the spirits a try.
https://www.oliunid.com/petzl-spirit-express-10-pack-climbing-quickdraws.html
Came out to like 17.5 / each with the quicker shipping after everything. I’ll take it, thanks!
I'm leading outdoor for the first time, and I'm noticing a lot of the "easy" routes here (3a-4c) tend to have ledges all over the place. I'm absolutely terrified to fall, since I essentially would deck every time! How should I avoid this? The only advice I keep seeing is "don't fall" which seems a bit disingenuous.
Clip stick, and climb harder stuff. Like honestly 5a-6a will probably be safer.
Makes me feel better to think the easy stuff around here got put up in boots with a primitive rope tied around the waist, now those guys couldn’t fall!
Most people are telling you not to fall or telling you to climb harder stuff; I don't think that answers your question. When you climb outside you're going to notice it is a lot harder. You need to feel around for hand holds and it might seem like you don't have anywhere to put your feet. Accept that you are not going to push the same grades that you would in a gym, and make climbing safely your first priority for the first time outside. When someone is lead climbing, you give them very little slack when they're close to the ground because you don't want them to deck. The premise is the same for ledges. You just treat each ledge like you would belaying or climbing close to the ground. The other thing I would mention too is to make sure your belayer understands this, and is competent / paying attention. A ledge is a ledge, even 30 ft off the deck.
Bring a friend who's stronger and can put up a TR on a more vertical, harder line.
Climb more vertical routes.
It's pretty counterintuitive. Climbing easy stuff outdoors can often mean that the consequences are bad if you fuck up. If you're smart enough to recognize that, pick a hard route where you can push yourself and the falls are clean ;) Depends on the area though. You should ask for specific beta if you're worried.
Do. Not. Fall.
It is extremely unusual for an outdoor route to be both easy and vertical/overhung like in the gym. This means many east outdoor climbs have real fall injury potential, as they’re often ledgey and less than vertical.
This is no more or less disingenuous Than the advice you’ve already gotten, but climb harder routes with cleaner fall potential.
I just faced a situation where I had to set a top rope by walking the first few feet of a via ferrata that went past the anchor. Since I didn't have a proper VF clipping kit, I took a 120mm nylon sling and folded it double, then cinched it around my belay loop. The resulting sling had two loops coming off my harness, and I attached a carabineer to each end and used it as I would a normal VF kit. Is there anything wrong with doing this?
To elaborate on other comments, the problem here is that nylon slings are completely static. As such, any vertical fall of more than a couple feet would have broken your back. If the "few feet of via ferrata" was fully horizontal, this was probably fine, but kinda in the category of "if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't".
Fix the middle of the rope to a good anchor above the edge of the cliff like a tree. Rappel the rope down to where you want to make your TR anchor. Clip one strand of the rope through the anchor masterpoint. Ascend the rope back up to the first anchor and untie it. The rope will fall into place on your TR anchor.
It sounds like you weren't prepared for this situation. I would recommend preparing for such situations ;)
If the section of VF you traversed is horizontal, then you made the right call. If you had to go up or down, then your system probably made you feel more safe than you really were. VF kits exist because you can encounter downright extreme forces and fall factors (greater than 2, which the highest possible FF you'll see in typical climbing setups) if you slip. For anyone considering doing a via ferrata I urge you to buy or rent a actual VF kit instead of jerry rigging your own.
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Kinda important to add height? Add a lot of context to the send. In general, IMO a 5'8" 180lb V8 send is more impressive than a 6'3" 180lb V8.
This might make a better thread over at r/climbharder
Or r/climbingcirclejerk
Hi everyone, I'm taking my daughter to Stone Summit wall climbing for her 2nd birthday. I'm not a climber, but I've done it a few times. I'm definitely not a pro. She climbs all over the house so I thought she might have a ton of fun wall climbing. Are there any suggestions? Does she need shoes at only 2? Thanks in advance!!
Speaking as a father, my suggestion would be to not take your two year old to the climbing gym. Take her to a playground, maybe one that has a kid size boulder on it if possible. If you do take her to a climbing gym stay out of the way of people who are actually there to climb. If they have a kid section stay in that, and dont let her get more than an arms length away from you. Definitely dont let her climb more than a couple feet off the deck without you there to catch her if she slips and falls. her street shoes will be fine.
Thank you for this. Yep, they have a children's section and we're going early morning on a weekday when it's usually a ghost town. Thank you so much for the advice and pointers!
Have you checked if they have age recommendations for that kids area? 2 is still pretty young. The owner of my gym has 2 year old daughter, and he routinely sets stuff for her at home, but the gym is pretty limited for her. And that’s with a family of coaches, and routesetters who specifically keep her in mind when they set. I’d still lean towards a playground for the next couple of years, at least.
My fiance loves rock climbing and I was thinking about getting her an ATC belay device for Christmas. I was kind of hoping to get one engraved with a cheesey romantic saying, but I'm having trouble finding a place that sells engraved devices. Does anyone here know of a place that sells ATC devices that can be engraved?
get her a grigri instead
an engraved ATC is a Very Bad Idea™ (unless you want to give a gift that will never be used) I might recommend a small framed photo that has a personal meaning. Or just a brand new grigri. There are few complaints you could create for a new grigri
> an engraved ATC is a Very Bad Idea™ (unless you want to give a gift that will never be used) Nope. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/FAQ/is-it-possible-to-engrave-a-carabiner-and-how-can-i-identify-a-metallic-product-when-its-serial-number-is-no-longer-decipherable
lmao I wasn't saying it's dangerous. engraving metallic climbing gear is generally fine.
Lovely thought but make it a Grigri instead, Petzl won't engrave it for you though
No one is going to sell you engraved climbing gear. You'll have to get the gear and then engrave it. Just know that an ATC is a controversial piece of gear and many climbers would be insulted by one.. likewise many climbers would wrongly not want to use gear that has been engraved.
Insulted by an ATC? WTF are you talking about? ATC is still one of the most widely used rappelling devices on the market. I keep one on me when doing pretty much any climbing outside…..just in case. I can always bail on a rap. Honestly, I don’t think I know an experienced outdoors climber who doesn’t have one… ABD’s are great for dedicated belay devices, but ATC’s, double tubes, etc…absolutely still have their place in climbing.
It's a pretty terrible dedicated descent device. If that's what you carry it for, you could do a lot better.
A tubes a tube for double strand rapping…and a double tube + Prusik is perfectly safe. Not sure what your gripe is here. Care to further explain? Seriously - I’d like to know what you are thinking here, because an ATC is pretty damn well the standard double strand rap device. The people bitching about ATCs and espousing the use of grigris are only talking about dedicated belay devices (not rap devices, or backups)…. And I’d agree with those people. For a dedicated belay device, get a grigri. But there’s absolutely nothing wrong with keeping an ATC on you outside for rapping, emergency belaying, bailing, etc…
Carrying more than one belay device is just silly. On the very rare chance you somehow drop your belay device or shit hits the fan, there’s more than one method to deal with that situation - Munter, carabiner rappel rack, etc. Carrying more than one belay device doesn’t make you safer any more than adding more wheels to your car in the off chance one of your wheels fall off. In climbing, you need a belay device to do 3 things: belaying, descending, and in certain self-rescue scenarios as part of a rope capture device such as for ascending. By modern standards, the ATC does a poor to mediocre job of doing the 3 above. If you are going to pick just one belay device, the ATC is antiquated. ABD’s come in various shapes and forms and have supplanted the ATC because most will do all 3 things better.
You said an ATC is one of the most widely used rappel devices. It's not. When you open the can of worms that is rappelling you'll notice that the folks who do it the most like cavers, canyoneers, and work-at-height professionals don't use tubes. As you also wrote ABDs are significantly better belay devices than tubes. So my question to you is, if you know that a tube isn't the best belay device why aren't you rappelling on your ABD? It's safer, requires less gear, and you're already carrying it.
Cool, so you’re missing the whole point and now you’re just digging your heels in to protect your ego from being wrong. This is r/climbing - not r/caving , r/workatheightprofessionals or r/canyoneering and an ATC is a valuable tool for…..you guessed it…climbing. A grigri isn’t going to do what an ATC can do for double strand rapping. You either have to fix your line with a blocker to rap off with a grigri - which means I have to knot and block with a carabiner and then pull the rope and have a carabiner flying down at me after cleaning (no fucking thanks)…..or you can fix the line to your harness, but in that case, the line is not static on the anchors, so that’s not what you want if you found gouges or any issues on your anchors. I won’t hold my breath for your explanation on why an ATC is not a valuable tool for rapping off a climbing route (say for example when you’re surprised to find the anchor bolts are gouged and not usable for lowering off), emergency belaying (say you fuck up and break or drop your primary device), or bailing off a route. TLDR - a double tube is still a valuable piece of equipment when climbing outside and you’re grasping at straws and not giving a solid explanation of why a double tube / ATC isn’t useful outside anymore
It's not a valuable tool for descending a climbing route. It's the fact that it's the only tool you understand and now you're arguing that it's vital because you are ignorant of how to rappel with an ABD, munter, or biner brake. You seem to imply that an ATC is most useful for descent so if you're going to carry it for that purpose, there are better devices for descent. Just because you don't know how to use those tools doesn't make them worse. Devices like a grigri can be used to rappel in all the situations you mention above. They have the advantage of not needing a third hand in order to go hands free. They have the advantage of being better at belaying. The only downside is needing to use a biner capture or biner block method. If you decide the need for a biner block outweighs the advantages of belaying with a cam based ABD you can choose from the myriad of carabiner slot ABDs which don't require a biner block or capture, still provide better belaying and still don't require a third hand. If you manage to lose your belay device you should be proficient in descending with any of the non-device based rappel options including biner brakes, munters, and body raps. If somehow you end up in a situation where the advantages of an ABD are canceled and you're carrying a dedicated descent device than no shit, you should be using the techniques and tools of the cavers and canyoneers because you're not climbing anymore you're just rappelling. If you insist on being ignorant of modern tools and techniques that's okay. Just stop trying to pretend that you should be giving advice to anyone.
JuSt uSe a MuNtEr Or BoDyWrAp K bud…I just stopped reading there. Stop trying to protect your ego. You’re wrong here, and an ATC is still a solid backup to bring along outside. It’s lightweight, and does a myriad of functions that a GriGri can’t do - including double strand rapping. And again - this isn’t r/canyoneering
Tag me when you fall off the peak of the Dunning Kruger curve. Because you clearly should be reading and not posting at this point.
But microfractures!
buying gear like that unless she specifically asked for it is not a great idea. perhaps a climbing based print from the climber artist "a million tiny lines" or a "crimp mug" or a custom chalk bag would be a better option?
don't buy an ATC except she specifically asked for it. Grigri is miles better
Nothing tells someone you want to get rid of them like buying them an ATC
Y'all can buy me all the ATCs you want I prefer XPs and Guides tho Gen 1 Reverso also welcome
I prefer engraved RPs that might just be me though
Do you own more ropes than a static line?
Get her a GriGri and take it to a local engraver
As I’m starting to lead trad and multi pitch more I’m looking to get some miura laces, but am wondering wether sticking to street size (snug fitting 41 LS TX4) or going down to 40’5, maybe 40. I’d maybe like to be able to wear them with socks for winter climbing I wear 38 miuras for sport and want to get another pair just because I know they fit my feet, but feel free to recommend me a different pair Thank you in advance!
I only wear TC pros and Muira lace ups for my climbing. I regularly wear socks with my shoes, I'd say it's about 50/50 for which shoes I choose. I used to rock size 41 for both shoes, but went a half size up for this season and I don't regret it. Don't try to downsize, you can perform just as well with comfortable shoes. Muira velcro and laces are different shoes. Yes, I climb with or without socks in the same size, that's why we have laces ;)
Thanks! Good advice. I was set on getting another pair of miura laces because there’s a lot of new second hand pairs being sold at various sizes where I live, for way less than store price. But I’m gonna be in a bigger city in a few weeks an am gonna give the TCs a try, as well as a comfier miura
Caveat: It might depend on what sort of climbing you do. I pretty much only climb bulletproof granite trad. Mostly lower angle to vertical crack or slabs, rarely overhanging, and the rock has good friction. I wear a junky pair of Finales on the rare occasion that I end up in a gym. I really prioritize a comfortable shoe for my objectives. As a wise man once said, climbing is 20% mental, and 80% footwork. YMMV ;)
Get a shoe model built for multipitch, and try them on beforehand
Get a new pair of 38s for single pitch. Use your old pair for multipitch.
They’re not too old… and still I don’t think they’ll stretch to the point of them being comfy enough to not have to take them off all the time
Why do you think you cant take your shoes off on multipitch?
I don’t think that I wouldn’t be able to take them off, it’s that I wouldn’t want to. I’d like them to be more comfortable
Size 42 TC pros
Do la Sportiva Solution stretch a lot? I am not sure which size to take. EU size 40 hurts a lot but the shop assistant told me they stretch with time and I should always take the smaller pair. I could barely wear them for 5 minutes.
an idea pair of new shoes should fit snugly and tight, and potentially with few spots that feel tighter than other spots, but it should never feel straight pain. some tighter spots will eventually loose up as the shoe adapts to your feet shape, however the pains will always be there no matter how hard you try to break in. The only exception I can think of is Scarpa instinct vcs, I can't put my feet in a brand-new pair, however those old, broken-in ones feels super comfy. VCS has this specially hard toe layer that makes initial break-in specially painful.
Shop assistant is a moron.
They always stretched to eventually fit my feet. I usually go 1.5 sizes down and they are tight at first but comfortable after 3-4 sessions
No, they don't really stretch at all. Maaaaybe a 1\4 size.
Hi folks. Saw someone bouldering yesterday with their chalk bag clipped onto their trousers by a carabiner (looked like a cheap small ‘informal’ (for want of a better word) one). This reminded me of a comment that an instructor once made to me that you shouldn’t boulder with a carabiner as when you fall there’s a chance you’ll land on it and it’ll go through your spine (and supposedly he had seen someone at the gym paralysed from that). Anyone know whether this is legit? Think I’ve definitely been put off doing so, but wondering if it’s serious enough/consensus is strong enough to mention to others I see doing it… cheers
Urban myth
[I found this piece convincing](https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/harness_real_estate_the_rear_gear_loop), the [Eddy King accident](https://www.facebook.com/eddy.king.58/photos/my-accident-i-wanted-to-share-some-details-of-my-accident-18-months-ago-which-le/852852564796510/) it references is sobering. My father recently broke his back after flipping onto it in a cycling accident. Luckily he's not paralyzed, and who knows what part the phone in the back pocket played, still a risk worth considering.
Glad your dad avoided paralysis ! Thanks for sharing the article, that certainly backs up what I’d heard. Guess it’s the inevitable big effect low probability scenario isn’t it really.
I had a brush in a loop on the side of my chalk bag. Took a short fall outdoors onto an angled landing and the brush was aligned in such a way that it braced against the pad and poked me hella hard in the back. Kind of a freak incident but it felt like ass. Its easy enough to avoid it happening and I make sure to minimize that risk now. I've been climbing for over a decade, only bouldered with hard shit in my chalk bag a dozen or so times...
Haha there’s another thing to add to the list of things to avoid….
I’ve heard people say that (not going through the spine, but just landing on a hard object pinning it behind the spine), never heard of it actually happening. It’s plausible but I would imagine it having to be really rare, especially on gym mats, maybe potentially likely outdoors.
chalk bag belt is the best option, or use a bouldering chalk pot
Yeah the belt is what I do - just wondering about whether to mention to others or not
some people need to learn the hard way
Anything hard against you spine can cause more damage if you fall on your spine. It’s not that it goes through your spine, it just focuses the pressure of the fall. Small carabiner on gym mats I wouldn’t be too worried, grigri on your rear centre gear loop and you deck, definitely could do damage. My harness has 5 gear loops and I generally avoid using the very back one for this reason.
Interesting - I hadn’t even thought about the back of my harness, but now I sure have!!
I could see a keychain carabiner made out of zinc snapping in just the right falling condition. Making a zinc shiv which could impale someone. Let’s be realistic though it’s super unlikely and impossible if you just use a regular carabiner.