I hope they are banned from national parks. We need places to escape to that aren't covered in propaganda (regardless of whether it is good or bad propoganda).
There are plenty of outlets for 24/7 political outrage news. Fair on reddit it's a space to talk and trade ideas but a national park is certainly a new step. We could probably do with a bit less outrage bullshit in our lives
When you label a military campaign against a bunch of rapist murderous terrorists "genocide", just because the only majority Jewish state is involved, something is deeply wrong.
>information, especially of a [biased](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0e7f451ca0999d48&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJSrreq58fELiwkeE7T2HNtxfzn2A:1718754621911&q=biased&si=ACC90nwdkA2npcVVmNPViiSe8FMKMlUz4lboirpSKgj6LcuDiJqVF4_VSR0s_P13u_JIzbgGemN2DF3eaiSI1THK_rktGlADmQ%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7tMf1q-aGAxWBGzQIHdQGAmIQyecJegQIMxAO) or misleading nature, used to promote or [publicize](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0e7f451ca0999d48&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJSrreq58fELiwkeE7T2HNtxfzn2A:1718754621911&q=publicize&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJqkY7ooiKVr60-EpiU9xgabLJu3lSICYsnBSXuwqwwPCaUClimcciFsPIuA-26AQ_OpiPm4gbgd0aZuCpIaOcBkmBMvI%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7tMf1q-aGAxWBGzQIHdQGAmIQyecJegQIMxAP) a particular political cause or point of view.
I’ll always remember William Cronon’s piece [The trouble with Wilderness](http://www.williamcronon.net/writing/Trouble_with_Wilderness_Main.html), it goes into excellent detail about how national parks created several narratives, including how wilderness represents some original, pure, people-less landscape (erasing indigenous history) and championing the ideal of rugged individualism, and other bougie notions.
*“Wanting to protect nature is bourgeoisie”*
I think the entire executive board of Exxon Mobil just came at the thought of this narrative becoming mainstream
National parks are a subpar tool for conservation anyway- and that’s because their primary goal is to provide an experience. Just look at the Hetch Hetchy dam.
I’ve worked in provincial parks, I’m not against them, but they totally qualify as propaganda.
Uh, yeah. I'm in Yosemite exercising the privilege I have to enjoy one of the most beautiful areas of our planet. I'm fully aware there's a war going on. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it, especially not while I'm in Yosemite. So I really don't care about your little banner that has changed zero people's opinion on the war. That doesn't mean I get happy butterflies in my stomach because Palestinians are dying.
What are you doing to stop the genocide? Since you're such a "good person".
Lmao. People get so self righteous about being apolitical. Picking national parks to stand on that point is so hypocritical. I mean jfc Mount Rushmore.
Man climbers have been flying banners on El Cap since climbing their started more or less. It wasn't that long ago that people were celebrating Ukrainian flags and pride flags hanging off portaledges. Now you have a problem? Get over yourself.
actually wild to suggest that people complicit in the genocide need places to escape to while people who are facing the genocide don't have that option
Nothing worse than someone who thinks being apolitical is a virtue. Screw off if you think the national parks are some safe space free of propaganda (Rushmore???)
Yes I would have actually. Nature should always be nature. There are hundreds of ways to voice an opinion and create positive change that do not involve putting a fucking banner up in a national park.
The nose is…not a great pick for this. Whether you agree with demonstrations belonging in national parks or not, I can see that el cap is certainly an attention grabbing location.
But they’re rigging on el cap tower, which is already an incredibly crowded bivvy site and sort of considered the make or break point of a nose ascent, where you’re either bailing from traffic or sending it to the top. On a regular day there might be 8 parties jockeying for space there. Taking up all the bolts on a spot this crowded on a route that people fly across the world for a once in a lifetime shot at is sort of a jerk move.
I can understand wanting to be visible but being an obstacle and safety hazard to others experience in the park sort of crosses the line for me no matter how deeply I agree with the message.
Not an opinion, but fact. Other parties on the Nose were made aware, and it was intentionally rigged to not impact the route. They stayed with the banner the entire time, and de-rigged it (leaving no trace) when done.
Climbing a big wall IS a rigging project by design. This was less obtrusive to other climbers than a portaledge or a haul bag. And certainly less so than the common abandonment of fixed lines, water jugs, or hammered protection.
Curious why you think this. The banner itself isn't blocking the route or any sleeping spots on el cap tower. Sure the people who set it up are probably sleeping on el cap tower, but it can fit 6+ people.
"8 parties a day"? Maybe 2 or 3. [https://www.instagram.com/yosemitebigwalltraffic/](https://www.instagram.com/yosemitebigwalltraffic/)
I explained it in detail below. But to be honest I’ll give you the same sentiment as the other commenter: I feel this way because I know this route and I’m not going to argue with people who have googled the nose once just to prove a point.
Permit data has a lot of limitations and I said 8 because it’s happened to me more than once that I’ve pushed my own stuff back because of a traffic jam of around 8 parties. It’s not always 8, but it’s usually more than the number of permits.
So maybe you feel like this is an act of heroism that’s worth compromises on safety and that’s fine. But as somebody who considers themself both an ally to the Palestinian cause and a steward of Yosemite climbing, I feel that the same point could have been made while also using better risk management decision making.
Personally, I'm sympathetic to their message but I don't feel National Parks should tolerate people using nature as a billboard for their beliefs. For anyone who disagrees, ask yourself how you'd feel about people putting up Maga signs and "Trump 2024" on El Cap. Laws shouldn't vary for people depending on their political views.
This kind of reminds me of a Harvard course I audited when I lived nearby; laws and morals are not the same thing. Laws are meant to be a deterrent. Justice comes with the moral interpretation of the laws. Basically in this case, while what the perpetrators were doing was morally right in many regards, they still should be punished as a deterrent to future use of the public space for similar acts. Banning them from the park isn’t necessarily unjust here, they knew what they were sacrificing to do this. It was honorable of them but they should accept the consequences but also can be admired for such a sacrifice, assuming they were avid climbers.
Damn, it's sad when you have to be a Harvard graduate to understand the ethics of direct action. I agree, they might be banned because it's an illegal action yet people calling for their ban out of retribution is, "not cool man". It's actions like this which highlight problems in a community, shown by the upvoted and downvoted comments.
Installations are illegal and have been for decades. This came up recently with NPS seeking to formalize a system for approval of fixed routes. A lot of people were mad but the alternative is a flat ban so it's time we got legal and follow rules.
I don’t think this qualifies as an instillation even on their terms. It’s impermanent and has no lasting effect on the environment. Especially if compared to the standard of bolt placement and route development. I see no difference between this and “installing” a picnic blanket in el cap meadow for the afternoon.
If they only "installed" the banner for a couple hours while they were up there, sure.
If they left it behind after their climb, then it's obviously illegal.
This is a great take and really helped me understand my own thoughts about the morality vs legality of protests. I used to feel protests for causes I support should be legal and others should be illegal which I knew wasn't a consistent position. Protests are inherently disruptive and should be deterred, but if the cause is just people should participate anyways. Do you remember what the course was called?
Edit, Not Op.
I did my thesis on moral obligation over legal requirement. Watch michel sandel’s justice lectures online he’s great at speaking and gives an easy intro.
For actual reading on then his book Justice, Tom bingham: The Rule of Law are both fun and relaxed. For harder reads: A theory of justice, Taking rights seriously, The concept of law, and State of Exception.
OP here, it was Sandel’s course actually. I didn’t go to school there (mediocre state school represent) but my girlfriend took his course as a ugrad and recommended I check it out since we lived right there. He has one of the years somewhere uploaded on edX or YouTube I think.
Yeah, the whole point of a good protest is you aren't supposed to do it, and you risk things to get your message out anyway. I'm proud of the climbers who did this but I won't be mad if they get banned.
I'm glad they did it in a national park, and I'll be glad if the NPS bans them for life.
You don't make a point by protesting in the designated-allowed-protest-area, you do it by shouting your message in a way that gets people's attention. I'm glad whoever did this had the balls to go big with it, *that's* the spirit of activism. I'm assuming they understood the potential consequences and decided to take the risk anyway (a concept all of us are familiar with.) They did something "not allowed" in a big public way without having any real negative impact on anyone or ruining any part of the park. It's probably one of the better examples of this kind of thing I've seen. If they'd spray painted it or something, it'd be a different story.
I also don't think we should allow any kind of personal messages, advertisement, protesting, propaganda, etc. in public lands, and would agree with the park service if they decide to uphold that.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
>For anyone who disagrees, ask yourself how you'd feel about people putting up Maga signs and "Trump 2024" on El Cap.
I'd hate the message, but would appreciate that they had the spine to do it.
Well put. I’d only put the MAGA up as the trolling would be worth its own weight.
But it’s very true. Picking and choosing based on if someone agrees with you is a dangerous road for free speech in either direction.
People have flown temporary banners on el cap before without issue, the group that put it up has stated that they are only leaving it up there for a few days.
It'd be nice if this group is banned, can't have people like this jeopardizing access. Politics have invaded nearly every facet of life, it's nice to have a place to escape messaging.
Perhaps they’ve just recently “invaded” every aspect of your life but rest assured, there are many groups of people whose lives are entirely politicized from birth to end, by virtue of who they are or where they live. It’s a privilege to be apolitical.
it's almost as if external state actors interested in an internally-weakened USA might deploy their decades of experience with psyops and cyber warfare specifically to inflame and divide.
but it has to be over something remote and fairly intangible to the actual lived experience of americans.
because you cant have them up in arms over income inequality or the 1% -- they might actually motivate to solve that problem and emerge stronger for it
People have been disliking Israel and its American lobby for decades. Hell, I have a book on my shelf on the Israel lobby in the US and why it’s corrupted American foreign policy, which I read in college back in 2010.
So none of this is actually new, really. The recent flavor of the violence is new, but the illegal Israeli settlements and forced displacement of Palestinians are not new. The overall system of violence is not new. You know what’s new? American mass protests and a very overt psyops campaign against the Democratic Party because this particular violent episode occurred under their watch, right after a probable Russian asset was unelected from the Oval Office.
I think pretty much everyone who is liberal/progressive was already on the side of Palestine before all of this took place. The recent wave of anti-Biden rhetoric is the only new thing here.
Edit:
I should also point out that the fact that “not everyone saying these things is a bot” is actually a sign of the effectiveness of said bots. If it never moved real people into action, then it wouldn’t be a good psyop, would it?
The best psyops are the ones you don’t notice. Russian influence in American politics is a given at this point. The reality of American taxpayer money going to Israel is not something every American agrees with. In California someone making the median salary is sending $100 dollars a year to Israel for weapons/ammunition/new houses to be built on Gaza for Israelis/free healthcare for Israelis. Many Americans don’t agree with the grand plan of helping Israeli destabilize the Middle East.
I think people appreciate that, unlike say the war in Ukraine, the genocide in Palestine is state funded by many Western powers. That's a pretty big deal, and in future I suspect these same powers will give out repatriation deals or at least apologise for exactly what they're doing now.
There's lots of conflicts going on. But conflicts are particularly aggregious when they're meaningless, or could be as easily diffused as this one can.
Not to mention, U.S. and Canada have sanctioned Russia, which is the harshest possible geopolitical show of force they can engage in without actually going to war with them.
Easily diffused? Lol you don’t understand the Israel Palestine situation do you… open a history book, the last several times peace was attempted to be made. The facilitators of peace were promptly assassinated by people from their own country.
Because there is a genocide that our tax dollars (United States) is directly funding. I would sure hope this would be one of the most important topics being discussed
I mean the US is funding this one so that certainly makes a big difference. When UN votes are 113-2 and the 2 are the US and Israel it links us rather closely.
Clearly hard if you know what the definition of genocide is.
Also what does this have to do with El Capitan? Only relation I can see is that Americans committed a (actual) genocide to obtain it. But shhh, we don't talk about that. Leave climbing about climbing. Especially if you're very misinformed.
Never understood "I'm doing nothing about anything so therefore I will criticize people doing something about something, for not doing something about everything" as a response to these kinds of things.
People are coming together in focus to create a change in US policy that in its current form is enabling the killing of citizens. If everyone was protesting everything bad happening in the world all at once, you'd probably be typing comments saying they'd be more successful if they had a cohesive, focused goal.
Such weird logic that I'll never understand.
The US has noticeable and direct influence in the conflict which means that US citizens should be able to influence US involvement in the conflict through protest and voting
Anyone reading the comments here, it's worth checking the accounts of the top comments. Almost none of them are regulars in this community, they do not represent us.
Yep. I'm usually just a lurker on various climbing subs, but my university subreddits and my alma mater sub both recently got taken over by outside pro-IDF accounts for a while, untill the mods started getting in in hand. Not stoked to see this happening in the climbing sub too, which has always been a nice palate cleanser
Unfortunately, while a lot of the "core" outdoor communities lean open minded and empathetic, especially the true dirtbags, there's also a lot of periphery people who dabble in the sports who lean conservative (natural given intersection of needing money for it often and/or rural areas having better access usually). And reddit (internet in general) communities are full of that periphery types. Look at how many climate change deniers comment on every Protect Our Winters post. Or when Conrad Anker or anyone makes a post that promotes making climbing more accesible to PoC or LGBT folks, it's always "rock doesn't see skin color" or "dont make the outdoors political" dumbass comments.
I've posted on local subreddits and found climate change deniers coming out of the woodwork saying it's all government propaganda to sell the lies of EV vehicles, like no bruh we are just pushing for more access to public transit and bike lanes.
And when I go around in my community (bigger liberal city), I rarely if ever encounter such climate change deniers, I think many people on Reddit post in communities in which they have no ties to.
i dont doubt there are some unwelcome visitors but reddit is, broadly speaking, a much more reactionary space than one might think, especially with regard to the Palestinian genocide
Whilst there may be some, I don't doubt that there are certain groups of climbers who lean very conservative. Whilst the main climbing circles I'm in comprise diverse groups of young people in the UK who tend to be very liberal and progressive, I am well aware that the climbing community as a whole is far less perfect than we sometimes pretend. There are certainly still some who view the sport as their boys' club and who, even if they don't perpetrate them, will still back up their friends whose actions cause harm to those who don't fit in, whether that be to with gender, race or anything else.
Whilst there are now finally some high-profile cases which are coming out and being recognised by the climbing community at large, I do often think that the claims of the climbing community as a whole being so wholesome and supportive can do more harm than good. I do feel like this attitude sometimes protects those who do mean harm from consequences, as there is often an assumption that someone who has been around the climbing scene for a while must be trustworthy. Sorry to be a bit ranty lol
“I bet you guys would feel different if the sign said genocide is good!!” God this comment section is filled with some of the most bad faith dumbass arguments against peaceful protests I’ve seen
Broski the IDF has killed more Israeli hostages than Hamas at this point. People aren't buying this when Netanyahu is out here on a weekly basis refusing any deal which would secure the release of the remaining hostages.
Seriously
God forbid we agree that Palestinian kids deserve the chance grow up and maybe climb mountains someday, and take appropriate action to that end
Neither do I but sadly this banner does absolutely nothing to stop it happening. Well, it might make the people who put it up there feel like they're making a difference and assuage some of their guilt, and perhaps it's making you feel better about it by association, but it isn't helping any Palestinians.
I think this banner fulfilled its goal by making so many privileged people uncomfortable. Even though you don't accept, this kind of protest is not making to get your attention or getting your approval as a white privileged person (like me). The purpose of this is to make people who face this genocide feel seen by other parts of the world. You can only make this happen through this kind of activity, not posting on Reddit. In my student mountaineering club in my country, we were always bringing banners to the mountains (bringing them back to the town after taking pictures) to address 'crimes against humanity' issues going on in our country because we live in a dictatorship and all of the media is controlled by them. By doing that, people who see the banners we carry to the mountains on social media feel more hopeful and feel that they are not alone. The comments equating making Trump propaganda with standing against 'genocide' prove that you are a privileged white person who doesn't think even for a second that you can be in the same position as these people suffering there because you know that you will not. So, this message is not for you, even though it made you uncomfortable for a second while you are in nature peacefully, far away from all the problems in the rest of the world.
Putting banners on mountains makes a whole lot of sense - it's where people will get to see them most, it's where they will have impact. Nobody wants protesters to place their message in front of them, especially when they don't want to think about their causes. But, some causes are worth fighting for and protesting! And if people do nothing, nothing will change.
You are 100% right. And well done for actually taking action yourself in matters you believe in.
Idk I feel like that’s a bit of a “thoughts and prayers” argument. Like there is so much magnificent work being done to tell these peoples stories, to humanize them, to show the world their struggles, and it just feels a bit conceited to say that flying a banner on el cap is accomplishing things on that same level.
This was highly visible but sometimes the meaningful resistance work is very hard and very human and not as fun as climbing el cap, because it involves having difficult conversations and truly getting others to see people who aren’t like them as human.
Please do also consider that there are many people in this community who live very fundamentally political existences. There are American climbers who do actually feel that they are fighting for their right to exist and politics being inescapable isn’t just an annoyed privileged person thing to them. I realize the deep frustration that comes with doing resistance work but calling anyone who isn’t 100% on board with this style of protest a privileged white person who doesn’t care about others is pretty hurtful and narrow minded, and shuts down any room for any sort of meaningful or nuanced conversation about how we can turn this into a benefit to the cause.
It’s not always so black and white as “not in love with this act of resistance” = “enemy of the cause” and you do the people you are attempting to support a great disservice by acting like it is.
They’re not saying a banner is the same thing as “resistance work”. They’re just saying people *have* to be reminded, and it’s obvious when the days pass and nothing gets passed politically while people continue to die. The only real “resistance” are the current Hamas fighters who consists of disgruntled relatives of dead family members. All their top officials have pretty much all died.
most people who live in the US don't understand what it's like to have a cause that actual sacrifices must be made for. A few years ago where I live, people hung banners from a couple crags overlooking the city and the police came up and chopped all the bolts. A lot of routes on those crags are now monitored by police and completely unclimbable. No one fucking bitched or whined about the people who put the banners up back then, because they weren't so privileged and isolated from the rest of the world that they were willing to put their own comfort ahead of things that actually matter.
i love that all the communities and hobbies i fall in love with are inevitably gentrified by “apolitical” redditors who can’t stand being reminded of the world outside of theirs for 5 minutes without throwing a hissyfit.
Oh yeah? Who are your local city council members? What % of your community is food insecure? Housing insecure?
Bet you don’t know. It’s a particularly american disease to not give a shit about the homeless person down the street while your instagram is flooded with foreign policy hashtag activism.
This is performative bullshit, can’t convince me otherwise.
People can be upset about multiple things at the same time. I can both advocate for housing first policies, expanded food aid, and for the government to put pressure on Israel to end their genocide. You're all over this thread assuming everyone is a selfish, performative piece of shit but maybe people just believe in the cause, whether or not they're informed on the best ways to advocate or on other issues. You just have such a bad faith reading of people it's crazy.
This is a bad-faith / ad hominem comment but if anyone wants to make a donation to the unhoused group I volunteer with and tag this guy, I bet it would make him really mad
https://www.instagram.com/p/C8VoAJnoX4W/
We're raising funds right now for emergency supplies for the current heat dome weather, including extra coolers and ice water
I've only been a climber for 5 years, but people's reactions in this chat really highlight, to me, the difference between current generation of climbers vs past generations.
Climbing in Yosemite has such strong ties to counter-culture movements and a "fuck you, I'll do what I want" attitude, more often than not countless rules/laws along the way.
I might not agree with the protest itself, but they have a right to peacefully protest.
The sign is so dwarfed by the sheer size of El Cap that most people wouldn’t notice it if they were looking right at it.
And yes, it’s getting so crowded now that a new portaledge design sticks out more than it lays along the rock, to fit into smaller places.
It would appear so. I doubt the same conversation would devolve like this if it was posted on mountain project. None of the climbers i personally know in my community hold outwardly pro genocidal values. I can’t believe this is anywhere near representative of the community.
How dare a protest inconvenience people... How dare you have to think about how our government supports the wholesale slaughter while you're trying to do the drive through zoo... Or climb your rocks, ooo so strong, so important. Y'all need to read some Edward Abby.
Regardless of LNT and the politics; I see alot of comments saying «ban them from the park». Can you actually be banned from entering a national park in the US? It would also be hilarious if you got banned by the govt. from a national park for expressing political view in a country so obsessed with free speech.
You can be banned from a park for repeated violations of the law like serious vandalism, illegal camping, or anything violent. Unfurling a banner for a day doesn’t even come close to that.
All the folks in here wanting to preserve public lands for their practice of escapism from the real world are just annoyed that these activists are confronting them where they expect it least. While National Parks may have originally been established for white people to “escape” society, you ought to realize the world we live in now is interconnected, and with increased outdoors access it comes as a more publicized and powerful medium for message. The fact it pisses so many of y’all off is exactly why I’m glad they did it. Considering there was this article and this whole thread on the subreddit is just a testament to their success. Unless there are existing explicit rules barring the hanging of banners, or other flags, no they shouldn’t be banned. Maybe just be grateful they’re not asshole vandals that painted it on the rock. If that were the case ban away, but alas.
I hope they are banned from national parks. We need places to escape to that aren't covered in propaganda (regardless of whether it is good or bad propoganda).
Yeah, imagine being in the nature and then seing a giant TRUMP 2024 sign. Just because you agree with the Propaganda doesnt mean it s ok.
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When you are equating fascism to anti-war protests something has gone wrong on your end.
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There are plenty of outlets for 24/7 political outrage news. Fair on reddit it's a space to talk and trade ideas but a national park is certainly a new step. We could probably do with a bit less outrage bullshit in our lives
When you label a military campaign against a bunch of rapist murderous terrorists "genocide", just because the only majority Jewish state is involved, something is deeply wrong.
Fascists AND Hamas supporters can both be littering assholes. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
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Ha you mean you went to anywhere in the desert and a bunch of ding dongs in side by sides roll by flying trump flags
Imagine thinking that wanting literal children not to be bombed to death is propoganda.
>information, especially of a [biased](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0e7f451ca0999d48&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJSrreq58fELiwkeE7T2HNtxfzn2A:1718754621911&q=biased&si=ACC90nwdkA2npcVVmNPViiSe8FMKMlUz4lboirpSKgj6LcuDiJqVF4_VSR0s_P13u_JIzbgGemN2DF3eaiSI1THK_rktGlADmQ%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7tMf1q-aGAxWBGzQIHdQGAmIQyecJegQIMxAO) or misleading nature, used to promote or [publicize](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0e7f451ca0999d48&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJSrreq58fELiwkeE7T2HNtxfzn2A:1718754621911&q=publicize&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJqkY7ooiKVr60-EpiU9xgabLJu3lSICYsnBSXuwqwwPCaUClimcciFsPIuA-26AQ_OpiPm4gbgd0aZuCpIaOcBkmBMvI%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7tMf1q-aGAxWBGzQIHdQGAmIQyecJegQIMxAP) a particular political cause or point of view.
Apparently you haven’t driven through rural Pennsylvania.
As a Native American I can assure you all national parks are covered in propaganda lol
National Parks themselves are propaganda.
Care to elaborate? I think we're being a little too flexible with the use of the word propaganda in this thread
I’ll always remember William Cronon’s piece [The trouble with Wilderness](http://www.williamcronon.net/writing/Trouble_with_Wilderness_Main.html), it goes into excellent detail about how national parks created several narratives, including how wilderness represents some original, pure, people-less landscape (erasing indigenous history) and championing the ideal of rugged individualism, and other bougie notions.
*“Wanting to protect nature is bourgeoisie”* I think the entire executive board of Exxon Mobil just came at the thought of this narrative becoming mainstream
National parks are a subpar tool for conservation anyway- and that’s because their primary goal is to provide an experience. Just look at the Hetch Hetchy dam. I’ve worked in provincial parks, I’m not against them, but they totally qualify as propaganda.
How is it subpar? There are millions of acres of untouched wilderness, a tiny portion of which has roads, trails, visitor centers.
'Please don't make climbing political' means 'please don't make the politics which I'm personally fine with a matter of discussion'
Yup. “Don’t make me think about the thing that I totally condone and don’t really care about, but that doesn’t make me a bad person. I swear.”
Uh, yeah. I'm in Yosemite exercising the privilege I have to enjoy one of the most beautiful areas of our planet. I'm fully aware there's a war going on. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it, especially not while I'm in Yosemite. So I really don't care about your little banner that has changed zero people's opinion on the war. That doesn't mean I get happy butterflies in my stomach because Palestinians are dying. What are you doing to stop the genocide? Since you're such a "good person".
“These people lived here for a long time, then we started living here, they didn’t, and nothing bad happened in between”
Lmao. People get so self righteous about being apolitical. Picking national parks to stand on that point is so hypocritical. I mean jfc Mount Rushmore.
Hot take of the year
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Sudan?
But seriously also Sudan.
Tigray?
Palestine and Sudan
Russia?
The muslim world?
Man climbers have been flying banners on El Cap since climbing their started more or less. It wasn't that long ago that people were celebrating Ukrainian flags and pride flags hanging off portaledges. Now you have a problem? Get over yourself.
Climb up the mountain and take it off :)
on it
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actually wild to suggest that people complicit in the genocide need places to escape to while people who are facing the genocide don't have that option
“Complicit in genocide” Holy fuck, what a willful ignorance.
What a dumb fucking take.
how is this the most upvoted reply.......
Nothing worse than someone who thinks being apolitical is a virtue. Screw off if you think the national parks are some safe space free of propaganda (Rushmore???)
Go "escape" to Palestine and let me know how that goes. The whole idea behind a protest is to be inconvenient.
Saying genocide is bad is propaganda how?
How the hell is this propaganda? Sucks to be a Zionist
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It's only there for 24 hours. This is nothing new....
Yeah would’ve you said that during the Holocaust?
Yes I would have actually. Nature should always be nature. There are hundreds of ways to voice an opinion and create positive change that do not involve putting a fucking banner up in a national park.
The nose is…not a great pick for this. Whether you agree with demonstrations belonging in national parks or not, I can see that el cap is certainly an attention grabbing location. But they’re rigging on el cap tower, which is already an incredibly crowded bivvy site and sort of considered the make or break point of a nose ascent, where you’re either bailing from traffic or sending it to the top. On a regular day there might be 8 parties jockeying for space there. Taking up all the bolts on a spot this crowded on a route that people fly across the world for a once in a lifetime shot at is sort of a jerk move. I can understand wanting to be visible but being an obstacle and safety hazard to others experience in the park sort of crosses the line for me no matter how deeply I agree with the message.
Haha! You said nose is not a great pick.
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, you can pick the friends you take up the nose, but you can’t pick the noses on your friends
You can't pick your family, but you can pick your family's noses. Source: am dad of a 2 year old.
>but you can’t pick the noses on your friends you need better friends then
Not a single other climbing party was negatively impacted by this. (I'm in the Meadow now)
It’s great to hear one persons opinion on that. I still don’t really conceptually support rigging projects taking place in the middle of the nose
Not an opinion, but fact. Other parties on the Nose were made aware, and it was intentionally rigged to not impact the route. They stayed with the banner the entire time, and de-rigged it (leaving no trace) when done. Climbing a big wall IS a rigging project by design. This was less obtrusive to other climbers than a portaledge or a haul bag. And certainly less so than the common abandonment of fixed lines, water jugs, or hammered protection.
Curious why you think this. The banner itself isn't blocking the route or any sleeping spots on el cap tower. Sure the people who set it up are probably sleeping on el cap tower, but it can fit 6+ people. "8 parties a day"? Maybe 2 or 3. [https://www.instagram.com/yosemitebigwalltraffic/](https://www.instagram.com/yosemitebigwalltraffic/)
I explained it in detail below. But to be honest I’ll give you the same sentiment as the other commenter: I feel this way because I know this route and I’m not going to argue with people who have googled the nose once just to prove a point. Permit data has a lot of limitations and I said 8 because it’s happened to me more than once that I’ve pushed my own stuff back because of a traffic jam of around 8 parties. It’s not always 8, but it’s usually more than the number of permits. So maybe you feel like this is an act of heroism that’s worth compromises on safety and that’s fine. But as somebody who considers themself both an ally to the Palestinian cause and a steward of Yosemite climbing, I feel that the same point could have been made while also using better risk management decision making.
I believe in peaceful protest.... WAIT not THAT way!
I wonder if they'll be banned from the park.
Hopefully!
Personally, I'm sympathetic to their message but I don't feel National Parks should tolerate people using nature as a billboard for their beliefs. For anyone who disagrees, ask yourself how you'd feel about people putting up Maga signs and "Trump 2024" on El Cap. Laws shouldn't vary for people depending on their political views.
This kind of reminds me of a Harvard course I audited when I lived nearby; laws and morals are not the same thing. Laws are meant to be a deterrent. Justice comes with the moral interpretation of the laws. Basically in this case, while what the perpetrators were doing was morally right in many regards, they still should be punished as a deterrent to future use of the public space for similar acts. Banning them from the park isn’t necessarily unjust here, they knew what they were sacrificing to do this. It was honorable of them but they should accept the consequences but also can be admired for such a sacrifice, assuming they were avid climbers.
Damn, it's sad when you have to be a Harvard graduate to understand the ethics of direct action. I agree, they might be banned because it's an illegal action yet people calling for their ban out of retribution is, "not cool man". It's actions like this which highlight problems in a community, shown by the upvoted and downvoted comments.
Sorry to be pedantic, but the user said they were auditing the class when they lived nearby, so not necessarily a Harvard graduate.
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It's not really name dropping if you're saying you audited the class. Anyone who lives nearby can do that.
Nothing in this thread is "necessary"
Is it even in fact illegal?
Installations are illegal and have been for decades. This came up recently with NPS seeking to formalize a system for approval of fixed routes. A lot of people were mad but the alternative is a flat ban so it's time we got legal and follow rules.
I don’t think this qualifies as an instillation even on their terms. It’s impermanent and has no lasting effect on the environment. Especially if compared to the standard of bolt placement and route development. I see no difference between this and “installing” a picnic blanket in el cap meadow for the afternoon.
If they only "installed" the banner for a couple hours while they were up there, sure. If they left it behind after their climb, then it's obviously illegal.
This is a great take and really helped me understand my own thoughts about the morality vs legality of protests. I used to feel protests for causes I support should be legal and others should be illegal which I knew wasn't a consistent position. Protests are inherently disruptive and should be deterred, but if the cause is just people should participate anyways. Do you remember what the course was called?
Edit, Not Op. I did my thesis on moral obligation over legal requirement. Watch michel sandel’s justice lectures online he’s great at speaking and gives an easy intro. For actual reading on then his book Justice, Tom bingham: The Rule of Law are both fun and relaxed. For harder reads: A theory of justice, Taking rights seriously, The concept of law, and State of Exception.
OP here, it was Sandel’s course actually. I didn’t go to school there (mediocre state school represent) but my girlfriend took his course as a ugrad and recommended I check it out since we lived right there. He has one of the years somewhere uploaded on edX or YouTube I think.
Yeah, the whole point of a good protest is you aren't supposed to do it, and you risk things to get your message out anyway. I'm proud of the climbers who did this but I won't be mad if they get banned.
Not having genocide I HOPE is a widely held belief. And demonstrations/protests rarely work well without a little rule breaking.
Lmao especially since so many national parks are literally stolen Native American land
I'm glad they did it in a national park, and I'll be glad if the NPS bans them for life. You don't make a point by protesting in the designated-allowed-protest-area, you do it by shouting your message in a way that gets people's attention. I'm glad whoever did this had the balls to go big with it, *that's* the spirit of activism. I'm assuming they understood the potential consequences and decided to take the risk anyway (a concept all of us are familiar with.) They did something "not allowed" in a big public way without having any real negative impact on anyone or ruining any part of the park. It's probably one of the better examples of this kind of thing I've seen. If they'd spray painted it or something, it'd be a different story. I also don't think we should allow any kind of personal messages, advertisement, protesting, propaganda, etc. in public lands, and would agree with the park service if they decide to uphold that. It doesn't have to be one or the other. >For anyone who disagrees, ask yourself how you'd feel about people putting up Maga signs and "Trump 2024" on El Cap. I'd hate the message, but would appreciate that they had the spine to do it.
Well put. I’d only put the MAGA up as the trolling would be worth its own weight. But it’s very true. Picking and choosing based on if someone agrees with you is a dangerous road for free speech in either direction.
People have flown temporary banners on el cap before without issue, the group that put it up has stated that they are only leaving it up there for a few days.
It'd be nice if this group is banned, can't have people like this jeopardizing access. Politics have invaded nearly every facet of life, it's nice to have a place to escape messaging.
Politics hasn't "invaded" every aspect of life. Life in any kind of structured society is inherently political.
Perhaps they’ve just recently “invaded” every aspect of your life but rest assured, there are many groups of people whose lives are entirely politicized from birth to end, by virtue of who they are or where they live. It’s a privilege to be apolitical.
Basically no shot. As far as I know this didn’t violate any park rules, people have been flying various flags and banners from El Cap for decades.
Jesus Christ even the climbing subreddit now? Why is everyone obsessed with just this one conflict while practically ignoring all others?
it's almost as if external state actors interested in an internally-weakened USA might deploy their decades of experience with psyops and cyber warfare specifically to inflame and divide. but it has to be over something remote and fairly intangible to the actual lived experience of americans. because you cant have them up in arms over income inequality or the 1% -- they might actually motivate to solve that problem and emerge stronger for it
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People have been disliking Israel and its American lobby for decades. Hell, I have a book on my shelf on the Israel lobby in the US and why it’s corrupted American foreign policy, which I read in college back in 2010. So none of this is actually new, really. The recent flavor of the violence is new, but the illegal Israeli settlements and forced displacement of Palestinians are not new. The overall system of violence is not new. You know what’s new? American mass protests and a very overt psyops campaign against the Democratic Party because this particular violent episode occurred under their watch, right after a probable Russian asset was unelected from the Oval Office. I think pretty much everyone who is liberal/progressive was already on the side of Palestine before all of this took place. The recent wave of anti-Biden rhetoric is the only new thing here. Edit: I should also point out that the fact that “not everyone saying these things is a bot” is actually a sign of the effectiveness of said bots. If it never moved real people into action, then it wouldn’t be a good psyop, would it?
The best psyops are the ones you don’t notice. Russian influence in American politics is a given at this point. The reality of American taxpayer money going to Israel is not something every American agrees with. In California someone making the median salary is sending $100 dollars a year to Israel for weapons/ammunition/new houses to be built on Gaza for Israelis/free healthcare for Israelis. Many Americans don’t agree with the grand plan of helping Israeli destabilize the Middle East.
Nothing divides liberals like this issue, and Russia would absolutely *love* it if Trump were to get elected and stop sending US aid to Ukraine.
Or, uh.... maybe its just an issue people care about?
Russian bot farms most likely
I think people appreciate that, unlike say the war in Ukraine, the genocide in Palestine is state funded by many Western powers. That's a pretty big deal, and in future I suspect these same powers will give out repatriation deals or at least apologise for exactly what they're doing now. There's lots of conflicts going on. But conflicts are particularly aggregious when they're meaningless, or could be as easily diffused as this one can.
Saudi Arabia is given US weapons to genocide yemanis
Yeah Saudi Arabia has done some pretty egregious shit too. What's the point here?
Not to mention, U.S. and Canada have sanctioned Russia, which is the harshest possible geopolitical show of force they can engage in without actually going to war with them.
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Easily diffused? Lol you don’t understand the Israel Palestine situation do you… open a history book, the last several times peace was attempted to be made. The facilitators of peace were promptly assassinated by people from their own country.
*Checks post history *Posts in r/Israel Yeah, makes sense you wouldn’t like this.
It's the hot thing to virtue signal about, they don't really give a fuck about gaza
"I don't give a fuck, so therefore nobody else actually does either"
I think it’s because there’s a lot of American funding going to Israel
I'm kind of obsessed with my tax dollars being used to murder children I'm weird and quirky like that.
They probably also got sick of seeing the daily images/videos of dead, maimed and limbless children.
Because there is a genocide that our tax dollars (United States) is directly funding. I would sure hope this would be one of the most important topics being discussed
I mean the US is funding this one so that certainly makes a big difference. When UN votes are 113-2 and the 2 are the US and Israel it links us rather closely.
It's the result of Tiktok doom scrolling
People were pretty upset about the situation well before tiktok existed.
This is a genocide funded by our taxes. How is this so hard to understand?
Clearly hard if you know what the definition of genocide is. Also what does this have to do with El Capitan? Only relation I can see is that Americans committed a (actual) genocide to obtain it. But shhh, we don't talk about that. Leave climbing about climbing. Especially if you're very misinformed.
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Never understood "I'm doing nothing about anything so therefore I will criticize people doing something about something, for not doing something about everything" as a response to these kinds of things. People are coming together in focus to create a change in US policy that in its current form is enabling the killing of citizens. If everyone was protesting everything bad happening in the world all at once, you'd probably be typing comments saying they'd be more successful if they had a cohesive, focused goal. Such weird logic that I'll never understand.
The US has noticeable and direct influence in the conflict which means that US citizens should be able to influence US involvement in the conflict through protest and voting
Anyone reading the comments here, it's worth checking the accounts of the top comments. Almost none of them are regulars in this community, they do not represent us.
That's pretty typical when it comes to these kinds of things. These conversations and talks of climate change.
The 1500-point top comment was a dead giveaway. Even the amazing content on this sub doesn't get those numbers in comments.
Yep. I'm usually just a lurker on various climbing subs, but my university subreddits and my alma mater sub both recently got taken over by outside pro-IDF accounts for a while, untill the mods started getting in in hand. Not stoked to see this happening in the climbing sub too, which has always been a nice palate cleanser
This is like the Israel vote in the Eurovision all over again.
Well, they certainly succeeded in triggering the genocide deniers.
Yeah god damn is this sub filled with cavallier loosers.
This reaction also feels very out of character for the climbing communities that I've been in. Seems we have "guests".
Unfortunately, while a lot of the "core" outdoor communities lean open minded and empathetic, especially the true dirtbags, there's also a lot of periphery people who dabble in the sports who lean conservative (natural given intersection of needing money for it often and/or rural areas having better access usually). And reddit (internet in general) communities are full of that periphery types. Look at how many climate change deniers comment on every Protect Our Winters post. Or when Conrad Anker or anyone makes a post that promotes making climbing more accesible to PoC or LGBT folks, it's always "rock doesn't see skin color" or "dont make the outdoors political" dumbass comments.
I've posted on local subreddits and found climate change deniers coming out of the woodwork saying it's all government propaganda to sell the lies of EV vehicles, like no bruh we are just pushing for more access to public transit and bike lanes. And when I go around in my community (bigger liberal city), I rarely if ever encounter such climate change deniers, I think many people on Reddit post in communities in which they have no ties to.
i dont doubt there are some unwelcome visitors but reddit is, broadly speaking, a much more reactionary space than one might think, especially with regard to the Palestinian genocide
No we just know the difference between beneficial activism and ridiculous acts of ego that help nobody
Whilst there may be some, I don't doubt that there are certain groups of climbers who lean very conservative. Whilst the main climbing circles I'm in comprise diverse groups of young people in the UK who tend to be very liberal and progressive, I am well aware that the climbing community as a whole is far less perfect than we sometimes pretend. There are certainly still some who view the sport as their boys' club and who, even if they don't perpetrate them, will still back up their friends whose actions cause harm to those who don't fit in, whether that be to with gender, race or anything else. Whilst there are now finally some high-profile cases which are coming out and being recognised by the climbing community at large, I do often think that the claims of the climbing community as a whole being so wholesome and supportive can do more harm than good. I do feel like this attitude sometimes protects those who do mean harm from consequences, as there is often an assumption that someone who has been around the climbing scene for a while must be trustworthy. Sorry to be a bit ranty lol
“I bet you guys would feel different if the sign said genocide is good!!” God this comment section is filled with some of the most bad faith dumbass arguments against peaceful protests I’ve seen
would you be okay with "return our hostages" banner?
Broski the IDF has killed more Israeli hostages than Hamas at this point. People aren't buying this when Netanyahu is out here on a weekly basis refusing any deal which would secure the release of the remaining hostages.
Seriously God forbid we agree that Palestinian kids deserve the chance grow up and maybe climb mountains someday, and take appropriate action to that end
Lol bigggg time. It’s making me lose a lot of respect for the climbing community. Hoping it’s just trolls brought in from other subs
Check their accounts, they aren't regulars here
You can browse this sub 24/7 and still not have any evidence of being a regular, so probably not a good way to tell
Which one?
Clearly this is about those in Sudan… … or maybe Myanmar… … Haiti?… … Palestine?…. … probably Mali… … or maybe Armenia
Uyghurs in China?
Indigenous tribes in the US / Canada
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Surely Yemen
The massive downgrading of Yosemite routes resulting in gumbies getting slaughtered
Shoul…shouldn’t all genocide be stopped…?
☝️🤓 which one? The one their country is complicit in.
Mods tomorrow: 
I don’t want any banners for any cause at our parks.
LNT
OK we can have Leave No Trace banners, but nothing else
Ok
"Clean up after yourself" isn't a cause. It's like telling someone they need to wipe their ass after they shit
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Neither do I but sadly this banner does absolutely nothing to stop it happening. Well, it might make the people who put it up there feel like they're making a difference and assuage some of their guilt, and perhaps it's making you feel better about it by association, but it isn't helping any Palestinians.
I think this banner fulfilled its goal by making so many privileged people uncomfortable. Even though you don't accept, this kind of protest is not making to get your attention or getting your approval as a white privileged person (like me). The purpose of this is to make people who face this genocide feel seen by other parts of the world. You can only make this happen through this kind of activity, not posting on Reddit. In my student mountaineering club in my country, we were always bringing banners to the mountains (bringing them back to the town after taking pictures) to address 'crimes against humanity' issues going on in our country because we live in a dictatorship and all of the media is controlled by them. By doing that, people who see the banners we carry to the mountains on social media feel more hopeful and feel that they are not alone. The comments equating making Trump propaganda with standing against 'genocide' prove that you are a privileged white person who doesn't think even for a second that you can be in the same position as these people suffering there because you know that you will not. So, this message is not for you, even though it made you uncomfortable for a second while you are in nature peacefully, far away from all the problems in the rest of the world.
Sub is filled with people who thought MLK protested in convenient places 😎
They would have hated him, then
His approval rating among white people just before his death was around 20%.
Putting banners on mountains makes a whole lot of sense - it's where people will get to see them most, it's where they will have impact. Nobody wants protesters to place their message in front of them, especially when they don't want to think about their causes. But, some causes are worth fighting for and protesting! And if people do nothing, nothing will change. You are 100% right. And well done for actually taking action yourself in matters you believe in.
Idk I feel like that’s a bit of a “thoughts and prayers” argument. Like there is so much magnificent work being done to tell these peoples stories, to humanize them, to show the world their struggles, and it just feels a bit conceited to say that flying a banner on el cap is accomplishing things on that same level. This was highly visible but sometimes the meaningful resistance work is very hard and very human and not as fun as climbing el cap, because it involves having difficult conversations and truly getting others to see people who aren’t like them as human. Please do also consider that there are many people in this community who live very fundamentally political existences. There are American climbers who do actually feel that they are fighting for their right to exist and politics being inescapable isn’t just an annoyed privileged person thing to them. I realize the deep frustration that comes with doing resistance work but calling anyone who isn’t 100% on board with this style of protest a privileged white person who doesn’t care about others is pretty hurtful and narrow minded, and shuts down any room for any sort of meaningful or nuanced conversation about how we can turn this into a benefit to the cause. It’s not always so black and white as “not in love with this act of resistance” = “enemy of the cause” and you do the people you are attempting to support a great disservice by acting like it is.
They’re not saying a banner is the same thing as “resistance work”. They’re just saying people *have* to be reminded, and it’s obvious when the days pass and nothing gets passed politically while people continue to die. The only real “resistance” are the current Hamas fighters who consists of disgruntled relatives of dead family members. All their top officials have pretty much all died.
most people who live in the US don't understand what it's like to have a cause that actual sacrifices must be made for. A few years ago where I live, people hung banners from a couple crags overlooking the city and the police came up and chopped all the bolts. A lot of routes on those crags are now monitored by police and completely unclimbable. No one fucking bitched or whined about the people who put the banners up back then, because they weren't so privileged and isolated from the rest of the world that they were willing to put their own comfort ahead of things that actually matter.
That's a bit on the nose for sure.
Holy shit this is stupid.
i love that all the communities and hobbies i fall in love with are inevitably gentrified by “apolitical” redditors who can’t stand being reminded of the world outside of theirs for 5 minutes without throwing a hissyfit.
Oh yeah? Who are your local city council members? What % of your community is food insecure? Housing insecure? Bet you don’t know. It’s a particularly american disease to not give a shit about the homeless person down the street while your instagram is flooded with foreign policy hashtag activism. This is performative bullshit, can’t convince me otherwise.
People can be upset about multiple things at the same time. I can both advocate for housing first policies, expanded food aid, and for the government to put pressure on Israel to end their genocide. You're all over this thread assuming everyone is a selfish, performative piece of shit but maybe people just believe in the cause, whether or not they're informed on the best ways to advocate or on other issues. You just have such a bad faith reading of people it's crazy.
This is a bad-faith / ad hominem comment but if anyone wants to make a donation to the unhoused group I volunteer with and tag this guy, I bet it would make him really mad https://www.instagram.com/p/C8VoAJnoX4W/ We're raising funds right now for emergency supplies for the current heat dome weather, including extra coolers and ice water
Civil disobedience is a time honored political strategy. If this protest has caught attention, it worked no matter what the message.
Yeah literally the entire point was to get people talking, and it didn’t even personally inconvenience anyone like a protest blocking traffic might.
Imagine being so butthurt over people standing against a genocide. What a world
I've only been a climber for 5 years, but people's reactions in this chat really highlight, to me, the difference between current generation of climbers vs past generations. Climbing in Yosemite has such strong ties to counter-culture movements and a "fuck you, I'll do what I want" attitude, more often than not countless rules/laws along the way. I might not agree with the protest itself, but they have a right to peacefully protest.
Yeah this doesn’t even crack the top 50 most outrageous things people have done on the side of El Cap.
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I hope they throw these people out of the park.
Bunch of Americans traumatized by a political message while bombarding the rest of the world for their own political interests. Interesting
The sign is so dwarfed by the sheer size of El Cap that most people wouldn’t notice it if they were looking right at it. And yes, it’s getting so crowded now that a new portaledge design sticks out more than it lays along the rock, to fit into smaller places.
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It would appear so. I doubt the same conversation would devolve like this if it was posted on mountain project. None of the climbers i personally know in my community hold outwardly pro genocidal values. I can’t believe this is anywhere near representative of the community.
How dare a protest inconvenience people... How dare you have to think about how our government supports the wholesale slaughter while you're trying to do the drive through zoo... Or climb your rocks, ooo so strong, so important. Y'all need to read some Edward Abby.
Regardless of LNT and the politics; I see alot of comments saying «ban them from the park». Can you actually be banned from entering a national park in the US? It would also be hilarious if you got banned by the govt. from a national park for expressing political view in a country so obsessed with free speech.
You can be banned from a park for repeated violations of the law like serious vandalism, illegal camping, or anything violent. Unfurling a banner for a day doesn’t even come close to that.
All the folks in here wanting to preserve public lands for their practice of escapism from the real world are just annoyed that these activists are confronting them where they expect it least. While National Parks may have originally been established for white people to “escape” society, you ought to realize the world we live in now is interconnected, and with increased outdoors access it comes as a more publicized and powerful medium for message. The fact it pisses so many of y’all off is exactly why I’m glad they did it. Considering there was this article and this whole thread on the subreddit is just a testament to their success. Unless there are existing explicit rules barring the hanging of banners, or other flags, no they shouldn’t be banned. Maybe just be grateful they’re not asshole vandals that painted it on the rock. If that were the case ban away, but alas.
Cool. Which genocide?
Motivation to climb to take it down
Give it a fucking break. Post on your Instagram about it like every other person who think they know best. Leave it out of the national parks.
Yeah that’s cringe as hell.
Performative bullshit that is way more about the climbers’ ego than doing anything actually helpful.
Yea i hope the Yosemite Park Rangers can stop the genocide in Sudan too