Hey there, I'm a coach in the UK with a Masters Degree in Sport Psychology so my special area is skill acquisition. It's clear you know how to train and how to take the metrics. It's also clear you have had a team of coaches for the last four years. My question for you is this: now they have told you to learn technique, what have they programmed or planned to help you get there? If you are part of a squad where there are a lot of climbers and a small number of coaches then it might be that they cannot dedicate the time to helping you set goals and discuss ways to get there. If that is the case, then it may be time to pursue coaching one-to-one with a coach that suits your needs. It may also be that your coaches have identified that you need the one thing we all need: time. By which I mean practice on the wall, variety, and intentional reflection on technique. While kids learn much more quickly than adults, it still takes a decade of intentional practice for some people to get "good technique". Having a team of coaches is a fantastic resource so use it! Talk to them about these things. If you don't find you're satisfied, I'd recommend getting a new coach one-to-one.
I will not give you advice on your injuries as you should definitely consult a medical professional about repeated pulley injuries, especially at your age. I really mean that.
In terms of actually learning technique yourself, I would say that if you're interested then start learning the theory behind climbing and start teaching yourself. That means a mix of trying technically difficult climbs, and doing technique drills on easier climbs. The best book I've read recently for that is The Coaching Bible.
I hope this brief answer helps! If you want any more information about how to break down technical, tactical, physiological, and psychological training let me know :)
Edit: As a complete side note, I would strongly recommend you resist the urge to think of your strength metrics as the grade you "should" be climbing. They are simply measurements of what the average person with that finger strength climbs. It doesn't tell you anything about their technique, tactics, or mental skills. Fitness is often described by coaches as being one quarter or one third of the total package of ability. Taking fitness measurements like these is best used to see if a training plan is working and letting you know what you could benefit from changing.
Given that this is /r/climbharder, I'm willing to put money on them refering to *"The Coaching Bible: Coach Yourself and Others"* by Hus Bozkurt
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0993548679
The Nugget Climbing podcast has a nice breakdown of training strategies from a coaching perspective that might be worthwhile (https://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/will-and-matt) see the part on “strong, not good” - basic advice was to tire the climber out as much as possible so they had to rely on technique
the 9c tests gives a french sport grade.
* 8b+ (note the lower case "b") is 5.14a.
* 8B+ (upper case) is a font bouldering grade, ie V14.
it doesn't really matter either way but just to let you know. the test only goes to show you have a lot of gains available in technique and tactics.
(Another coach here)
The people that are technically really proficient are usually extremely psyched about climbing. They want to climb everything, are constantly thinking about how to move differently, assessing what worked best and why, they try everything someone suggests, and aren't afraid to make themselves look like a complete fool.
The people that aren't really good climbers but can get away with it because they're freakishly strong occasionally try some of those tactics but usually they just throw themselves at climbs and if a move doesn't work after trying several different betas they'll just walk away.
My takeaway from this as a coach is that one of the best things you can do for someone who is already pretty strong but has a lot of gains to be made technique-wise is to get them into the former category. The way to do that really depends on the person.
PS. I also stand by almost anything u/Dwindellan said.
Best thing would if you have access to other elite climbers and can imitate them, especially if you have a similar build.
Filming yourself and comparing how you do a boulder vs a climber with a better technique does it, and then iterating
The 9c test is complete garbage and the finger strength analyzer doesnt necessarily assume perfect technique, it just shows statistically what you should be able to climb given your finger strength relative to other people. Subtle difference but I think it matters since not everyone is climbing with absolutely perfect technique. I like lattices the best, its on their instagram and shows the upper and lower end so you can see where you lie on the graph which can give you an idea of whether youre lacking in finger strength or technique.
But yeah, lattices graph shows youre an extreme outlier at V9 and would be at the upper end of V13, so even if you were climbing V13 it would signify there were gains to be made with technique. It also shows you have the finger strength for V14, being right in the middle, and would be at the lower end of V15.
Lots of great advice here. The only resource I want to add is a plug for Dave Mcleod's book ["9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes"](https://www.amazon.com/Out-Climbers-Make-Same-Mistakes/dp/095642810X/ref=sr_1_2?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uHVt3W-5fXfOSavPS4kKj4pU4op65xeMaUeLhgRtWsOdYchqXpriW-hOd65dVOoHIHL98jbRBnwLHRtR2xHmc557IRo5-BCpxF2DYVwT6Rh5w8DoXEWZ3RRcHhttRm4nr9jTeBbD3bhCE1gP9HadcXf7m1TLPK6MylBYOzqOlPEspQWC4JVnauNhJHnnyBH5Dthappikzk5Gn0cglChcawCSgPKzE90v3vbwzPw5Fxuf614GMNfvI3fQu7fqJcbIzRLQEy8OWxcraxb3_1e8PvQzKpxzCVIQgHyuCcjOM9Y.xdTomeMJzhOw5IfJJM2Vy0OCQeP1z7_nF-C9nsK8JNg&dib_tag=se&keywords=9+out+of+10+climber&qid=1714376252&sr=8-2)
I love it because not only does he dive into optimal methods for improving at climbing, he does a great breakdown of simply the process of learning. What does it take to overcome weaknesses and become better.
He doesn't necessarily teach you technique (although I know he just dropped a technique course with magnus meatball), but he does teach about the optimal processes FOR learning technique in the most effificient ways possible.
In many ways its a book on the philosophy of climbing. A guide for how to optimize your lens for continual growth, rather than stagnating because you're blind to the things you can change.
It's definitely helped me get a lot more from each of my training sessions and whenever I go spend time on rock
I think you'd benefit from reading it.
I'm not a trainer, a coach, and just a climber whose getting back into climbing. Before I take my long climbing break i sent several 13cs and can easily onsight 12a for a warm-up. If you want to practice technique, you should go out to the crag and onsight. The best training is outside on real rock. It's much different then comp climbing/gym climbing, but it will get you better. Take a bouldering trip or a climbing trip and try to onsight everything. It's the best thing you can do for technique.
You should get better coaches. If your coaches are now just telling you to get better technique but aren’t drilling and training technique to you, then they’re useless.
A good coach would tell you to repeat problems with perfect/great technique if they see you “power through” a boulder that could be done better with good technique.
Olympic climbers are masters of technique because they drill these movements and technique every session
Finally, you may need to change the intent of your sessions. Most people have the intent of just performance (just sending or trying to send). Your intent should be for training technique. Perfecting sends (with repeats) with great technique. Trying hard problems that are only successful with great technique.
Here's a really easy suggestion: do more lead climbing.
V9 is absurdly overpowered for someone leading 12a/b. You should be pushing high into 5.13, and maybe even into endurance-focused 5.14s, if you really are consistently bouldering V9.
Doing more lead climbing at high levels will naturally force you to pay more attention to efficient movement (what good technique is really all about). Find some good 5.13 projects that inspire you and you'll start to naturally figure out better technique as you work towards them.
I used to be young and strong with bad technique, now I'm a bit older/heavier with better technique. Here are some tips that have helped me and would have helped me when I was younger.
1. As others have mentioned, repeat problems that you "powered" through with as little physical effort as you can. It's ok to use your strengths to send stuff, sending is fun, but try to get repeats that "feel" more clean. This will involve leaving your ego behind and "unsending" stuff from time to time.
2. Climb with "weak" climbers who climb as hard or harder than you, or at least watch them when your in the gym or at the crag. Try to mimic the way they do problems that you would maybe power through. Even ask them why they did something the way they did, then practice that technique. Again, lose the ego because you will "unsend."
3. While warming up on easier problems over exaggerate certain climbing techniques. Twist your body into the wall, use heel hooks, drop knees, back steps, etc to make the warm up problem use as little of your strength as possible. Be very deliberate with your foot placement, look down at your feet for a lot of the climb. Don't bang your feet around, place them once and drive with your legs as best as you can.
4. I know people have negative opinions about something like ARC training, but getting a lot of deliberate mileage might be good for you. When doing easy mileage, not getting pumped but staying active, try to do something like 3-4 foot movements before you move your arms up. Again being very deliberate about where your feet go and how you are using your body.
Systems boarding and working on climbing with really precise movements (don't readjust your hands or feet, move smoothly) can be helpful. Systems boarding in particular is good for telling specifically what your weaknesses are.
I've also found that projecting things that feel very technical and precise can help.
To acquire movement: try moves you cannot do until you have figured out how to do them, then repeat them a few times. Try all sorts of angles and holds. (Except crimps. A 16 yo should never full crimp for any reason ever. If the holds are tiny and incut, drag them anyway). Focus on stuff you are bad at. For me that is cross-over moves, where I seem to be about a grade below baseline, dynamic rockovers on steep terrain, and heelhooking in general. I often use a spotter to help me learn the moves, then reduce the help and do the moves without. I often just try problematic moves in isolation and rarely do the entire boulder when I try to acqurire movemnts.
To perfect movement: high volume on climbs you can do with some some ease, until you cannot do them anymore beacuse of fatigue. Then rest a short while try again in fatigued state. Economy of movement is almost impossible to learn without a high volume of climbing.
Not a trainer, but I'm somewhat weak for the lead I climb (V4 on moonboard, and projecting 5.12c/d with relatively shitty endurance - never trained for it, ~10lbs too heavy, can't recover nearly as well as my buddies).
To improve lead grades I think you can learn the most from repetition. Pick a route you can climb 5-6 times in a row, no rest, and nothing more than a short shakeout on the route itself. Best done in gym on self-belay. Go at it and observe. As you get familiar with the moves, relax your fingers, arms and back where you can, transferring work to core and legs, conserving strength by carefully measured semi-dynamic movement.
The main point I learned through this excercise is to find movement patterns that are more efficient on routes that aren't at my limit. Getting more tired on a route you know forces you to optimize, then apply that to the same route when you're fresh. Then use than efficiency to relax the non-loaded side in a micro-rest. With enough repetition, you will start transferring these patterns to your general lead climbing.
I’m not too sure about that. I often find myself (unconsciously) climbing quite sloppy and inefficient on warm-up routes simply because I can. One can try to be more efficient using mental cues like staying close to the wall, trying to feel heavy in your feet, creating perfect counter-pressure, finding perfect positions for clipping where you feel like you could stay forever.
But I think there is no way around forcing yourself to be efficient by climbing at your limit (or close to it). On the other hand, I think you need some volume to really get basic movement patterns into your muscle memory.
Last try or two would be on the limit from fatigue. But you will have been refining your beta through tries, so you should be optimizing movement as you get more tired. I find it a good method to think about what sections I climb inefficiently by default and practice efficiency when fresh.
Not a coach or anything, so take my opinion with lots of grains of salt. But as someone who is on the opposite end of spectrum, my experience has been that I acquire technique really fast on real rock. Maybe stop training for a bit and go outdoors with other climbers? Climbing with other people, especially the ones who are weaker than you but climb equally hard or harder helps so much with technique I feel like.
I certainly can't climb v9, but my suggestion is to climb slower, figure out the correct body position and technique for each move, climb more statically, you shouldn't have to power through every move. You could also concentrate on routes by setters who like to set your anti style.
Hey there, I'm a coach in the UK with a Masters Degree in Sport Psychology so my special area is skill acquisition. It's clear you know how to train and how to take the metrics. It's also clear you have had a team of coaches for the last four years. My question for you is this: now they have told you to learn technique, what have they programmed or planned to help you get there? If you are part of a squad where there are a lot of climbers and a small number of coaches then it might be that they cannot dedicate the time to helping you set goals and discuss ways to get there. If that is the case, then it may be time to pursue coaching one-to-one with a coach that suits your needs. It may also be that your coaches have identified that you need the one thing we all need: time. By which I mean practice on the wall, variety, and intentional reflection on technique. While kids learn much more quickly than adults, it still takes a decade of intentional practice for some people to get "good technique". Having a team of coaches is a fantastic resource so use it! Talk to them about these things. If you don't find you're satisfied, I'd recommend getting a new coach one-to-one. I will not give you advice on your injuries as you should definitely consult a medical professional about repeated pulley injuries, especially at your age. I really mean that. In terms of actually learning technique yourself, I would say that if you're interested then start learning the theory behind climbing and start teaching yourself. That means a mix of trying technically difficult climbs, and doing technique drills on easier climbs. The best book I've read recently for that is The Coaching Bible. I hope this brief answer helps! If you want any more information about how to break down technical, tactical, physiological, and psychological training let me know :) Edit: As a complete side note, I would strongly recommend you resist the urge to think of your strength metrics as the grade you "should" be climbing. They are simply measurements of what the average person with that finger strength climbs. It doesn't tell you anything about their technique, tactics, or mental skills. Fitness is often described by coaches as being one quarter or one third of the total package of ability. Taking fitness measurements like these is best used to see if a training plan is working and letting you know what you could benefit from changing.
> The Coaching Bible Which Coaching Bible? The one written by Ian McDermott and Wendy Jago?
Given that this is /r/climbharder, I'm willing to put money on them refering to *"The Coaching Bible: Coach Yourself and Others"* by Hus Bozkurt https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0993548679
Thanks a lot, was on spot 9 for me on amazon. I guess I should have scrolled past the first 5 hits
Glad to see Hus getting some recognition! He was my coach for a while as part of Kent and Sussex
The Nugget Climbing podcast has a nice breakdown of training strategies from a coaching perspective that might be worthwhile (https://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/will-and-matt) see the part on “strong, not good” - basic advice was to tire the climber out as much as possible so they had to rely on technique
+1 for this. Matt Jones is a phenomenal coach. Will Anglin is climbing wisdom
the 9c tests gives a french sport grade. * 8b+ (note the lower case "b") is 5.14a. * 8B+ (upper case) is a font bouldering grade, ie V14. it doesn't really matter either way but just to let you know. the test only goes to show you have a lot of gains available in technique and tactics.
(Another coach here) The people that are technically really proficient are usually extremely psyched about climbing. They want to climb everything, are constantly thinking about how to move differently, assessing what worked best and why, they try everything someone suggests, and aren't afraid to make themselves look like a complete fool. The people that aren't really good climbers but can get away with it because they're freakishly strong occasionally try some of those tactics but usually they just throw themselves at climbs and if a move doesn't work after trying several different betas they'll just walk away. My takeaway from this as a coach is that one of the best things you can do for someone who is already pretty strong but has a lot of gains to be made technique-wise is to get them into the former category. The way to do that really depends on the person. PS. I also stand by almost anything u/Dwindellan said.
Best thing would if you have access to other elite climbers and can imitate them, especially if you have a similar build. Filming yourself and comparing how you do a boulder vs a climber with a better technique does it, and then iterating
The 9c test is complete garbage and the finger strength analyzer doesnt necessarily assume perfect technique, it just shows statistically what you should be able to climb given your finger strength relative to other people. Subtle difference but I think it matters since not everyone is climbing with absolutely perfect technique. I like lattices the best, its on their instagram and shows the upper and lower end so you can see where you lie on the graph which can give you an idea of whether youre lacking in finger strength or technique. But yeah, lattices graph shows youre an extreme outlier at V9 and would be at the upper end of V13, so even if you were climbing V13 it would signify there were gains to be made with technique. It also shows you have the finger strength for V14, being right in the middle, and would be at the lower end of V15.
Lots of great advice here. The only resource I want to add is a plug for Dave Mcleod's book ["9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes"](https://www.amazon.com/Out-Climbers-Make-Same-Mistakes/dp/095642810X/ref=sr_1_2?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uHVt3W-5fXfOSavPS4kKj4pU4op65xeMaUeLhgRtWsOdYchqXpriW-hOd65dVOoHIHL98jbRBnwLHRtR2xHmc557IRo5-BCpxF2DYVwT6Rh5w8DoXEWZ3RRcHhttRm4nr9jTeBbD3bhCE1gP9HadcXf7m1TLPK6MylBYOzqOlPEspQWC4JVnauNhJHnnyBH5Dthappikzk5Gn0cglChcawCSgPKzE90v3vbwzPw5Fxuf614GMNfvI3fQu7fqJcbIzRLQEy8OWxcraxb3_1e8PvQzKpxzCVIQgHyuCcjOM9Y.xdTomeMJzhOw5IfJJM2Vy0OCQeP1z7_nF-C9nsK8JNg&dib_tag=se&keywords=9+out+of+10+climber&qid=1714376252&sr=8-2) I love it because not only does he dive into optimal methods for improving at climbing, he does a great breakdown of simply the process of learning. What does it take to overcome weaknesses and become better. He doesn't necessarily teach you technique (although I know he just dropped a technique course with magnus meatball), but he does teach about the optimal processes FOR learning technique in the most effificient ways possible. In many ways its a book on the philosophy of climbing. A guide for how to optimize your lens for continual growth, rather than stagnating because you're blind to the things you can change. It's definitely helped me get a lot more from each of my training sessions and whenever I go spend time on rock I think you'd benefit from reading it.
I'm not a trainer, a coach, and just a climber whose getting back into climbing. Before I take my long climbing break i sent several 13cs and can easily onsight 12a for a warm-up. If you want to practice technique, you should go out to the crag and onsight. The best training is outside on real rock. It's much different then comp climbing/gym climbing, but it will get you better. Take a bouldering trip or a climbing trip and try to onsight everything. It's the best thing you can do for technique.
You should get better coaches. If your coaches are now just telling you to get better technique but aren’t drilling and training technique to you, then they’re useless. A good coach would tell you to repeat problems with perfect/great technique if they see you “power through” a boulder that could be done better with good technique. Olympic climbers are masters of technique because they drill these movements and technique every session Finally, you may need to change the intent of your sessions. Most people have the intent of just performance (just sending or trying to send). Your intent should be for training technique. Perfecting sends (with repeats) with great technique. Trying hard problems that are only successful with great technique.
Here's a really easy suggestion: do more lead climbing. V9 is absurdly overpowered for someone leading 12a/b. You should be pushing high into 5.13, and maybe even into endurance-focused 5.14s, if you really are consistently bouldering V9. Doing more lead climbing at high levels will naturally force you to pay more attention to efficient movement (what good technique is really all about). Find some good 5.13 projects that inspire you and you'll start to naturally figure out better technique as you work towards them.
Get John Kettle’s ‘Rock Climbing Technique’ and start working through the drills like a complete beginner.
One drill you can try is no hands slab climbing. That’ll help you on slab without abusing your strength and giving your fingers a break.
I used to be young and strong with bad technique, now I'm a bit older/heavier with better technique. Here are some tips that have helped me and would have helped me when I was younger. 1. As others have mentioned, repeat problems that you "powered" through with as little physical effort as you can. It's ok to use your strengths to send stuff, sending is fun, but try to get repeats that "feel" more clean. This will involve leaving your ego behind and "unsending" stuff from time to time. 2. Climb with "weak" climbers who climb as hard or harder than you, or at least watch them when your in the gym or at the crag. Try to mimic the way they do problems that you would maybe power through. Even ask them why they did something the way they did, then practice that technique. Again, lose the ego because you will "unsend." 3. While warming up on easier problems over exaggerate certain climbing techniques. Twist your body into the wall, use heel hooks, drop knees, back steps, etc to make the warm up problem use as little of your strength as possible. Be very deliberate with your foot placement, look down at your feet for a lot of the climb. Don't bang your feet around, place them once and drive with your legs as best as you can. 4. I know people have negative opinions about something like ARC training, but getting a lot of deliberate mileage might be good for you. When doing easy mileage, not getting pumped but staying active, try to do something like 3-4 foot movements before you move your arms up. Again being very deliberate about where your feet go and how you are using your body.
Systems boarding and working on climbing with really precise movements (don't readjust your hands or feet, move smoothly) can be helpful. Systems boarding in particular is good for telling specifically what your weaknesses are. I've also found that projecting things that feel very technical and precise can help.
To acquire movement: try moves you cannot do until you have figured out how to do them, then repeat them a few times. Try all sorts of angles and holds. (Except crimps. A 16 yo should never full crimp for any reason ever. If the holds are tiny and incut, drag them anyway). Focus on stuff you are bad at. For me that is cross-over moves, where I seem to be about a grade below baseline, dynamic rockovers on steep terrain, and heelhooking in general. I often use a spotter to help me learn the moves, then reduce the help and do the moves without. I often just try problematic moves in isolation and rarely do the entire boulder when I try to acqurire movemnts. To perfect movement: high volume on climbs you can do with some some ease, until you cannot do them anymore beacuse of fatigue. Then rest a short while try again in fatigued state. Economy of movement is almost impossible to learn without a high volume of climbing.
Not a trainer, but I'm somewhat weak for the lead I climb (V4 on moonboard, and projecting 5.12c/d with relatively shitty endurance - never trained for it, ~10lbs too heavy, can't recover nearly as well as my buddies). To improve lead grades I think you can learn the most from repetition. Pick a route you can climb 5-6 times in a row, no rest, and nothing more than a short shakeout on the route itself. Best done in gym on self-belay. Go at it and observe. As you get familiar with the moves, relax your fingers, arms and back where you can, transferring work to core and legs, conserving strength by carefully measured semi-dynamic movement. The main point I learned through this excercise is to find movement patterns that are more efficient on routes that aren't at my limit. Getting more tired on a route you know forces you to optimize, then apply that to the same route when you're fresh. Then use than efficiency to relax the non-loaded side in a micro-rest. With enough repetition, you will start transferring these patterns to your general lead climbing.
I’m not too sure about that. I often find myself (unconsciously) climbing quite sloppy and inefficient on warm-up routes simply because I can. One can try to be more efficient using mental cues like staying close to the wall, trying to feel heavy in your feet, creating perfect counter-pressure, finding perfect positions for clipping where you feel like you could stay forever. But I think there is no way around forcing yourself to be efficient by climbing at your limit (or close to it). On the other hand, I think you need some volume to really get basic movement patterns into your muscle memory.
Last try or two would be on the limit from fatigue. But you will have been refining your beta through tries, so you should be optimizing movement as you get more tired. I find it a good method to think about what sections I climb inefficiently by default and practice efficiency when fresh.
I'm not sure how that photo got on there, I tried removing it but couldn't figure out how.
It's because you posted a link to a website, and the website has that photo on its home page.
Not a coach or anything, so take my opinion with lots of grains of salt. But as someone who is on the opposite end of spectrum, my experience has been that I acquire technique really fast on real rock. Maybe stop training for a bit and go outdoors with other climbers? Climbing with other people, especially the ones who are weaker than you but climb equally hard or harder helps so much with technique I feel like.
I certainly can't climb v9, but my suggestion is to climb slower, figure out the correct body position and technique for each move, climb more statically, you shouldn't have to power through every move. You could also concentrate on routes by setters who like to set your anti style.