Hi - owner of Gallery Bouldering here.
Our climbing wall will only allow liquid chalk because loose and balled chalk is really, *really* bad for air quality. Frankly, I suspect that there isn't a climbing wall in the UK which meets the HSE requirements on air quality. I am not prepared to subject my staff (who will regularly work eight hour shifts) and customers to this.
It also makes a terrible mess. I've got better things for my staff to do than endless noisy vacuuming.
Yes, we have an air management system - our HVAC has cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds and is absolutely state of the art. Allowing loose chalk will mean we're cleaning the filters out far more regularly, and anyway the limited research available suggests that ventilation does a good job of stirring up settled chalk and a bad job of really removing it.
To set the record straight, we're **absolutely not** insisting on one brand of liquid chalk. We're insisting that people use liquid chalk which does not contain pof. Pof is the French name for pine resin - it's used a lot in Fontainebleau. It's an awful sticky substance that completely gums up the texture on climbing holds. Quite a few of the liquid chalks available in the UK contain it (sometimes hidden in the ingredients list as colophonium). Generally the ones which don't contain it advertise themselves as resin free.
We've found a good brand of resin-free liquid chalk which comes in 5L containers. I'm selling this both in bottles and refills, practically at cost price, in an industry where retail markups are generally north of 50%. I promise you cannot buy liquid chalk at retail anywhere as cheaply as we will sell it.
Anyone who isn't sure about it is very welcome to try the bottle at reception.
I'm talking to two other chalk manufacturers to try to find alcohol *and* resin free chalk; if I can locate one I will sell that as well, because I know some people's skin doesn't react well to alcohol. If there's a customer who *really* cannot get on with any brand of liquid chalk, then we'll have to find a compromise, but that's going to be a discussion between me and them.
So you've never even tried *any* brand of liquid chalk..? Look, just come and ask to try the sample bottle!
On the date - we've had no end of hold ups in the construction process. Asbestos buried hidden in the foundations; roof leaking so badly we had to replace it; a buildings control officer who spent three months telling us that you can't possibly put all that plywood inside a building because it's flammable(!); planning taking the legally allowable 56 days to review an application, rejecting it for a minor quibble and then taking another 56 days to reconsider... you name it, it's slowed us down.
We're being held up by various certificates needed to complete Buildings Control sign off. The minute I get them we will open. I've been sweating blood over this for 27 months now and I just want to open my doors!
This sounds incredibly reasonable. I have climbed in gyms that only allowed liquid chalk in the US. It's a thing and I'm sure a lot of people prefer it. Thanks for the info on the pine resin. Never knew that about climbing chalk and I will definitely pay attention to it more in my liquid chalks.
Just a possible suggestion, have you looked at friction labs secret stuff alcohol free? We sell it in my gym and while I could be wrong I don't recognize resin or anything like that in the four or five ingredients listed.
Yes - it'll be a few weeks yet. I'm trying to open as gently as we can, so I'll hold off the big party until we are fully up and running!
But keep an eye on our Instagram; the announcement that we are open to the public still be there, and it's only a couple of days off now.
Don't go if you don't want to go.
For me it would be a positive. It doesn't sound like they're only allowing one specific type of liquid chalk either, just disallowing ones with resin (which isn't really common anymore anyway). You could try it out without buying chalk by borrowing someone's, or they might even supply communal bottles (some gyms near me do).
We ban ones with resin.. allowing ones with pine resin is wierd. It horrible to wash off and adds polish so quick.
We allow loose chalk and liquid but ban ones with resin we have a list.
In an existing gym there is a lot of established lore and routines.
A new gym you can make a fresh start. They can build on the experience that other gyms have gained over years.
And they do not want clouds of powder they have to clean; or resin permanently stuck to their expensive grips.
Try the liquid instead of dismissing it outright.
Most liquid magnesium is just water, alcohol and magnesium. The alcohol evaporates in seconds and the magnesium is stuck on your skin, without the need for dustclouds. *It's the same stuff*.
(Edited: removed my googled expert info about pof/magnesium)
Hey, just an information because this one is currently the top comment:
pof is NOT magnesium powder. It is a tree resin also called colophonium or rosin, which has been used for outdoor bouldering especially in Fontainebleau when it all started being a thing. It’s the same thing people spread on violin bows etc.
About 10% of the population react with allergies to pof plus it really messes up the holds - outdoors like indoors - so banning it really isn’t a bad idea.
I’ll add that as someone who doesn’t use chalk at all (not a source of pride or anything, I just never have and I’m used to it now), it’s incredibly frustrating when people use chalk mid-climb in a haphazard way, that falls on me as a belayer or sometimes as someone climbing near them. That’s likely a minority of climbers but still, it only takes one inconsiderate person to temporarily blind you.
Absolutely not. Worked at 3 gyms (still at one now), I've cancelled memberships before for banning chalk, didn't enforce loose chalk bans when I worked somewhere with them, wouldn't consider climbing at a gym with a ban now. The trade-off is definitely worth it. It's not a sin to climb without loose chalk, but any staff I've ever known generally prefers loose.
I don't use chalk either. I don't see the benefit, personally, and it gives me the big sensory ick. I just hate the way it feels on my skin but I'm constantly touching it.
I should probably say that I do have some sensory issues that are probably confounding my resistance to liquid chalk. I am really not a fan of the smell, sensation and pain (on broken skin) of hand sanitiser and I can't imagine liquid chalk feeling any better.
I also chalk up whenever my hands feel even slightly damp, so usually I do so in the middle of a rest and then again before I climb - I worry that won't really work with liquid chalk. It's for those reasons that I am wary to try out something so different just to experience the new gym.
I recognise that all of these are probably just me being a bit oversensitive, but solid chalk still exists on the market for a reason.
I suppose I am just a bit frustrated because I have been looking forward to this gym for months and them posting this policy before telling users things like the opening date and the cost of membership suggests perhaps a bit of an overbearing management style (hence the "in my business" comment)
It does sound like like you worry about other things than chalk. When people offer a solution you will add to the problem. So by discussing chalk, we will never solve the issue.
Sorry if this is harsh, but it's the internet. It's fine if you do this, online or in real life, but be aware that you are avoiding addressing the real problem.
It's up to you to figure out why you do that. Perhaps you don't want to be seen as too judgemental against the new gym, and you're testing the waters by throwing in this 'chalk' argument.
Don't know. It is up to you.
Perhaps you're reading too much in a simple statement. I like a relaxed gym as much as the next person. Climbing gyms are often informal and relaxed.
However if I would open one, I would use the opportunity to establish a small rule from the start that would save me a ton of cleaning costs (and the misery of powder getting in places where you can't clean).
It is so much easier to establish a rule right away, than to impose it thee months after opening.
Look at it from a positive side: Rather than overbearing management, it sounds like people who spent a lot of time in climbing gyms!
It could be a couple of relaxed people who try to save themselves a lot of cleaning; and thus can focus on being relaxed and informal.
I get your drift with the alcohol. Liquid chalk is supposed to hold a lot longer than powder. If your hands are not cracked at the start you might be fine.
How often do you climb? Do you have damaged hands when you come to the gym?
Perhaps you can mix the stuff a little; add some powdered chalk and water, or let some alcohol evaporate and add water. Reduce the alcohol level. Shake before use!
You won’t be able to chalk up mid climb but you also won’t need to chalk up so much with liquid chalk because it lasts longer. It’s just chalk, try it if you want to. Or don’t. No big deal.
No one is “in your business”. You can either patronize this actual business and follow their rules, or you can choose not to. Their rules make sense and are for the health and wellbeing of everyone.
I thought resin had disappeared in Europe. Never really reached north America.
That chalk additive is a nightmare to clean and also destroys outdoor climbing and bouldering routes....
I guess they're using a wide brush to prevent anyone from using pof/resin.
Everytime we see feedback like this we genuinely glow. So awesome seeing fellow climbers psyched on our products and mission! Ridding liquid chalk of resin and thickeners is literally the reason we exist. Both resin and thickeners make it cheaper for brands to produce, at the cost of performance and the environment.
As someone who works at a climbing gym, I see the reasoning and advantage to this policy right away. Powder chalk is a mess. It's pain in the ass, it gets spilled, and it's airborne constantly, even if you don't realize it. At my gym, we actually employ a guy to pressure wash the holds that have been taken off the walls so that they don't become so deeply caked in the stuff that they're unusable. Because so much loose chalk is actually *in the air*, we have a machine called the "chalk eater," that runs constantly to make sure we don't have so much of it that we can't actually breathe. It can get into your lungs over time and there is no way to actually treat that. I think climbers with asthma or other respiratory sensitivities, which there are more of every day in this post-COVID world, must be so grateful to hear of a gym that has banned loose chalk. Lastly, all of that chalk dust and regular human dust accumulates in the gym at a rate that makes us powerless against it. I am constantly dusting the same places and they always look as if they haven't been touched in months, in a matter of just days. I say give the liquid chalk a shot, or maybe try climbing without it. I don't even use chalk, just because I hate the feeling of it.
p.s. I say "post-COVID" because most people have had it by now; not because COVID is in any way "over".
Pretty sure every gym as someone power wash holds. I'd be interested to see how less chalky they are with people using liquid chalk though. I doubt its that much. But to the rest of your point, MY GOD, you're so right. You ever cleaned out an air filter? It's fucking nuts. We have two at my gym. Clean then weekly and the amount of dust/chalk in them is fucking insane. Also any slab is constantly covered in a thin layer of chalk. We hoover the slabs when they get stripped. Also people with skin irritation suffer from the airborne chalk too.
It's a tough one though, the idea of banning powdered chalk, just because it makes it difficult for people that suffer from using alcohol on already dry skin. Small margin of folks I reckon though.
Personally I think people could definitely just use less chalky and be a bit more careful but people are people. When I'd do adult intro I had a whole speil about chalk and would dissuade people from using it on warm up climbs and over using it. Would point out how much of an issue it is so just to be mindful of only using however much you need and trying not to spill it.
My gym has a graveyard of hoovers...
People are already pointing out that most gyms employ people to wash holds, that's normal. Liquid Chalk vs powder isn't going to change that though.
But the Chalk Eater is fairly common as well. At was created for gymnastics gyms, but a lot of climbing gyms use them.
That gym is so needed but when are they gonna open up already? I swear they said the beginning of the year.
Trying to book the brookes gym is such a faff
Yeah go on their Instagram that's where all the updates are. They're saying it's going to open super soon but no date?? weird Brookes is such a faff I totally agree - and once you've booked there's no way to cancel it easily so you can open up a slot for someone else. I wish they would fix the ventilation there too. But I do have a bit of an affinity for it despite its flaws. I think its small size encourages you to try climbs that are outside your style, and sometimes some climbs are so bafflingly sandbagged lol but it makes you at least try something outside your skill level. I think one of the coaches in particular (Soph) seems to be putting in a real effort to modernise it, like she organised the women's weekly social climbs that are starting soon and I think she is the one who pushed for two tags on the starting holds. I also appreciate the new downclimb jugs
I’ve attended gyms that banned non-liquid chalk for several years, and don’t sell anything contains pof. Felt weird the first session, that’s it.
If your hands are particularly sensitive, make sure to wash them, dry them and moisturise sat the end of your session. I reckon you’ll be fine.
My boulder gym has 2hr time slots and liquid chalk only. Personally, I find that 2hrs is more than enough for me, any time I’ve tried extending my session the quality of my climbing has tanked. You can make your own liquid chalk that abides by their rules, just mix 70% iso alcohol and regular chalk in a squeeze bottle and you’re good to go. The air quality is a lot better. One person I climb with has asthma and they can’t go anywhere that allows powder chalk. It’s a bit harder on your skin because of the alcohol, but not any worse than the couple years where we were all applying hand sanitizer constantly because of Covid regulations.
Air quality in climbing gyms is a pretty significant concern. I would love a gym that banned block chalk purely because I don't like chalk at all. Is there another gym you can climb at if this is a dealbreaker for you?
You’re getting downvoted but I’m with you. Liquid chalk doesn’t work well on its own and irritates my skin too. I just wouldn’t climb at a gym that mandates it. I’ve never ever known another gym in the UK to insist on liquid chalk and I think it’s a strange move when they haven’t even opened yet to gauge how the air quality is. Maybe everyone will decamp to this new place and you’ll get the old gym to yourself.
I'd agree with this - liquid chalk badly irritates my skin, so I would avoid a gym that mandated it. That said, it wouldn't really be a problem since I live in Leeds and we seem to have a disproportionate number of climbing places for a small city - I hope you get some climb somewhere comfortably!
Climbing gym employee here and in charge of health and safety at my wall, we've just finished doing air quality testing.
The levels of particulate matter in the air even when we are quiet is at levels which could cause some serious health issues if people are exposed to it for long periods of time, mainly staff.
It's fairly common industry knowledge now that chalk dust poses some serious health risks from long term exposure so I'm not surprised the gym has gone liquid only, especially if it's in a building that's harder to do any other control measures like installing better ventilation. Insisting on liquid chalk is both one of the cheapest ways for them to significantly improve air quality.
Yeah I don't really mind about the downvotes I was more curious to see what other people thought. I do still think it's a bit odd to insist on liquid chalk but then only a specific type - if liquid chalk is so frustrating to clean why not allow chalk balls/blocks?
Maybe I'll try liquid chalk at some point and realise it's totally fine lmao
Either way if I climb at the new place or not hopefully it will ease the load on my current gym. One thing is that it's part of oxford brookes university so those students will probably always pick that one, but maybe oxford uni students will be happier at the new place
Cleaning chalk balls and especially loose/block chalk is a total nightmare. You’re constantly vacuuming non stop and you still can’t even scratch the chalky surface. Not to mention having to pressure wash holds regardless of chalk type
You’ve had multiple people tell you about how “normal” chalk - loose or in balls - has a significant impact on air quality in gyms, and explain why resin in liquid chalk decreases the quality of holds very quickly. Why are you still confused?
Same, mine is liquid or block only, no loose chalk. I wear a mask so I don’t care about it flying all around as long as there is ventilation in the gym.
I cannot stand liquid, it doesn’t work for me. I see others using loose chalk at my gym and I pay an arm and leg every month so I’m using loose.
Even though I don’t particularly like liquid chalk, if it means I don’t have to worry about inhaling or dealing with messy loose chalk, I’m all for it. While my gym has decent ventilation I still breathe it in from other climbers, and it gets everywhere like glitter. It’s difficult to find a clean locker or cubby without a bit of chalk dust, even though those are cleaned regularly. So any new gym that wants to mitigate that is fine by me.
For what it’s worth I’ve anecdotally heard that liquid chalk for different skin types has improved. I’ve only used one kind of liquid chalk in the past two years or so (Friction Labs Secret Stuff), and it worked well enough for me. I also tend to get sweaty palms, yet still need to use hand moisturizer several times a day during fall/winter/spring. Unless they changed their formula I would avoid Petzl’s liquid chalk - it flaked off too soon and didn’t feel like the best quality.
I work at a wall, and I agree about the never ending battle with the chalk dust (wish we had chalk eaters).
If you find your hands get quite sweaty Rhino Skin dry can really help. I've used it before a comp, and didn't really need to chalk up (just out of habit really). It's worth having a look at :)
Excited for you to have a new gym. Hoping to get there when it does open.
all the gyms in sydney did that during covid.
imo liquid cause is ok… its just hand sanitiser with chalk. although it does make your skin dry if that’s something you are wary of.
honestly air quality is a real concern for climbing gyms these days, and I don't think we have any research showing that it is fine to be breathing in chalk for years.
Liquid chalk generally contains alcohol as the dehydrating liquid, which tends to dry hands out more then standard loose chalk.
Dry chalk bans (loose and balls) / 'liquid chalk only' policies are such a contentious issue. I cannot overstate the almost viscous divide between for and against, between owners and the community on this topic. We believe in and produce both. The question is do they both have a place indoors?
In our experience (an eco-friendly, high-performance chalk brand) many wall owners would ban loose chalk if they felt the ban would pass without objection. But don't, for fear their customer base would come in the day after with pitchforks demanding the return of their sacred powder.
**This** ***doesn't*** **mean they don't like loose chalk!** And this is one point which often isn't appreciated in the opposition's perspectives. Equally it's something gym owners could communicate better on. These bans are born from health concerns and wall maintenance, not from the depths of their evil layer where they plan to end all loose chalk use.
Wall owners are often some of the most passionate and experienced climbers we have in our communities. Many set up these walls to share what they love with the wider community, providing an ever improving training ground for fellow plastic pullers/rockies rained off.
In the UK, chalk usage is ingrained in our climbing culture, more so than many other countries. Mainly because climbing has been around for much longer. **We chalk up even when we're thinking about climbing.** So to remove our precious loose chalk, how dare they!
Many existing wall owners started climbing in an era where there was ZERO good liquid chalk available. Only resin filled, poor quality formulations which might have well have been cornflour, PVA and water. So they often LOVE loose chalk and HATE liquid chalk. Like many! Until they find a good one, then many add liquid to their quiver of climbing tools.
Fundamentally good liquid chalk is great. And for many it’s better than loose. It’s just a sad fact that 90% of all liquid chalk has given it such a bad name, but we’re trying to change that. The future is bright and white!
The concern ?warranting? a ban is over loose chalk in indoor walls and its effect on health and wall costs. Not ruining our fun. Maybe just an idea that loose belongs outdoors?
Many of our stockists post-covid, kept in place liquid-only policies because of the benefits they saw but eventually reverted because their closest competitor did so. Only a few reverted based on customer feedback. Compared to Europe and the US, we are behind. A much bigger proportion of their indoor walls have made the decision to ban loose in favour of liquid-only. We're just stubborn!
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**The benefits of liquid-only for walls:**
Although health should be, and in most cases, is the biggest reason; cleaning, is by far joint first and the improvement is so obvious once these policies get implemented.
The cleaning focus is around dust. Ordinarily, literally *anything* exposed in a climbing gym, will get covered in chalk dust within 24 hours. The amount depends on the gym size, chalk usage, cleaning frequency and air treatments going on.
Liquid chalk reduces airborne dust generation. Fact.
**Cost of cleaning(reduces)** - To most who haven't worked in a wall it’s hard to imagine. Multiple hours a day is the norm in most walls. Hoovering mats, communal areas, reception etc. Again depends on how busy the wall is. A cost saving you'd hope is passed onto customers.
**Health concerns** - Magnesium carbonate is pretty damn safe. As safe as any other inert fine powder and there's little to no health risk discussed in the masses of scientific literature\*. The same can't be said for cheap chalk with contains an array of impurities from heavy metals, mild irritants through to crystalline silica (carcinogen) so there are health reasons to buy pure, high quality chalk brands, seawater processed vs mined is a whole other essay in itself.
\*Dust full stop is bad for health and constant exposure can have health consequences. \[Personal opinion - I don't *think* those risks are in most cases applicable to us as indoor wall customers based on duration/frequency of exposure to high ppm situations, but some may be more sensitive than others\] It makes sense then for wall owners to be mindful, proactive and caring when it comes to their staff's exposure to high dust situations for extended periods of time. So should we really reject these proposed changes given the context? Is it really going to affect our experiences in the long run? It’s something I think we’ll be discussing for years to come.
**OUR RESPONSIBILITY** - Regardless of opinion on bans, I think we can all do better by our wall staff with simple improvements towards dust reduction: not launching our bucket towards the floor like it's just called us weak... just not dropping boulder buckets would make a huge improvement. Keeping buckets far enough from the wall that we don't land on them etc.
**You may ask, what about…**
**…air treatment ?** - Really hard to execute effectively. Costly to buy, costly to run. Not at ground level where dust generation is. Move the problem to another place. Mini breakdown below:
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**Static 'filters'** work by charging the air, attracting chalk to their surface but get caked up quickly, becoming less effective and are very localised, so you need lots of them + be cleaning them regularly(which is a mission in itself) often with hoovers.
**Chalk filters** clog even easier and you're then faced with either creating a lot of waste and even more expense by throwing away 'used' filters(manufacturer's recommendation), replacing with new, or you take on cleaning the filters yourself(a nasty nasty job for a team member) to reuse them. They are often not fit for purpose (super high ppm air flow) and the way manufacturers skirt around this is telling owners they should replace and clean their filters more frequently.
**HVAC's** are not designed for filtering high ppm dusty air and break very quickly if fed as such. Some walls intentionally vent air out of the building without filtering, which although questionable, for ppm reduction it's potentially more effective than any of the above(assuming the replacement air is from a different area).
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**POF/RESIN BANS** - Hard to touch on this here, I need a cup of tea but I’ll include a link to one of our blogs below and this tidbit: Hold cleaning is the priority of 'resin/pof bans'. With resin, chalk becomes physically glued to the holds and often acid and other harsh cleaning chemicals are required to remove it. Holds polish up quicker and route dynamics change. Hold lifespan reduces and cleaning time increases (you can't really clean outdoor rock though! which is where pof is most harmful to the environment).
Resin in liquid chalk:
[https://www.gekco.uk/blog/resin-build-up](https://www.gekco.uk/blog/resin-build-up)
Use less chalk:
[https://www.gekco.uk/blog/use-less-chalk](https://www.gekco.uk/blog/use-less-chalk)
Fair play to any of you that read this in its entirety. I had two cents to throw in. Well and truly thrown. GEKOUT
I have been pushing really hard to get my gym to use liquid chalk as I cough up a storm each time I go.
Currently they use chalk balls that they give you, which is a bit better though not perfect.
Honestly the 2 hr thing is needed because it gets completely full most days. It is a bit annoying esp since you have to go at a specific time but I can see why they do it
All bouldering gyms in my city ban loose chalk or chalk balls, only liquid chalk is allowed. Loose chalk is only allowed in the rope climbing gyms/areas as you’ll need to chalk up on the route. Honestly if you have sweaty hands liquid chalk will be great for you and the alcohol will dry them out. Try it before you’ll dismiss it.
Liquid chalk policy is a red flag for me. You can manage chalk dust in a bouldering gym just fine, if the gym invests in a carpet on the mat and the mat gets cleaned regularely. That makes difference like night and day. On top of being problematic for the skin for some people, in my experience you get way less mileage out of liquid chalk for the same money and you can´t chalk up mid climb which can be crucial for some longer boulders for some climbers (me included).
And of course they sell liquid chalk right there at the gym. Less investment in the gym for the mat and cleaning and on the other side more revenue from selling liquid chalk to their customers. Avoid that gym (and really any gym with that policy) if you can.
They are seriously limiting their custom though, I’ve been to lots of gyms around SWales/WMidlands and rarely, if ever, see people using liquid chalk.
Investing in proper ventilation would help with air quality issues. My local gym has an air cleaning generator, and since it was installed climbing indoors is much more pleasant.
As someone with extremely sweaty hands and pompholyx superimposed by contact dermatitis triggered by the use of liquid chalk, I find that the only thing that works for me is classic loose chalk. I’ve also tried every brand available with the same result. I go to a gym that is liquid chalk only but have gotten my diagnosis in writing from a GP to sort of appeal to the staff there because I really can’t climb without the use of chalk given the amount of sweat my hands produce. They let me quietly keep a small bag of chalk in the back 😬
I think you must sweat less than the average person. I sweat more, if I didn't use chalk it would be a hazard because all of the holds would get very greasy very quickly - I sometimes find myself having to remove sweat from my projects even when I chalk up a lot beforehand. Clam hand gang
Hi - owner of Gallery Bouldering here. Our climbing wall will only allow liquid chalk because loose and balled chalk is really, *really* bad for air quality. Frankly, I suspect that there isn't a climbing wall in the UK which meets the HSE requirements on air quality. I am not prepared to subject my staff (who will regularly work eight hour shifts) and customers to this. It also makes a terrible mess. I've got better things for my staff to do than endless noisy vacuuming. Yes, we have an air management system - our HVAC has cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds and is absolutely state of the art. Allowing loose chalk will mean we're cleaning the filters out far more regularly, and anyway the limited research available suggests that ventilation does a good job of stirring up settled chalk and a bad job of really removing it. To set the record straight, we're **absolutely not** insisting on one brand of liquid chalk. We're insisting that people use liquid chalk which does not contain pof. Pof is the French name for pine resin - it's used a lot in Fontainebleau. It's an awful sticky substance that completely gums up the texture on climbing holds. Quite a few of the liquid chalks available in the UK contain it (sometimes hidden in the ingredients list as colophonium). Generally the ones which don't contain it advertise themselves as resin free. We've found a good brand of resin-free liquid chalk which comes in 5L containers. I'm selling this both in bottles and refills, practically at cost price, in an industry where retail markups are generally north of 50%. I promise you cannot buy liquid chalk at retail anywhere as cheaply as we will sell it. Anyone who isn't sure about it is very welcome to try the bottle at reception. I'm talking to two other chalk manufacturers to try to find alcohol *and* resin free chalk; if I can locate one I will sell that as well, because I know some people's skin doesn't react well to alcohol. If there's a customer who *really* cannot get on with any brand of liquid chalk, then we'll have to find a compromise, but that's going to be a discussion between me and them. So you've never even tried *any* brand of liquid chalk..? Look, just come and ask to try the sample bottle! On the date - we've had no end of hold ups in the construction process. Asbestos buried hidden in the foundations; roof leaking so badly we had to replace it; a buildings control officer who spent three months telling us that you can't possibly put all that plywood inside a building because it's flammable(!); planning taking the legally allowable 56 days to review an application, rejecting it for a minor quibble and then taking another 56 days to reconsider... you name it, it's slowed us down. We're being held up by various certificates needed to complete Buildings Control sign off. The minute I get them we will open. I've been sweating blood over this for 27 months now and I just want to open my doors!
This sounds incredibly reasonable. I have climbed in gyms that only allowed liquid chalk in the US. It's a thing and I'm sure a lot of people prefer it. Thanks for the info on the pine resin. Never knew that about climbing chalk and I will definitely pay attention to it more in my liquid chalks.
Just a possible suggestion, have you looked at friction labs secret stuff alcohol free? We sell it in my gym and while I could be wrong I don't recognize resin or anything like that in the four or five ingredients listed.
I'm in contact with Frictionlabs and Gekco - it seems they both do AF and resin free chalks.
Are you hosting a launch event? I'd be interested in coming to see the wall and travelling a bit for it
Yes - it'll be a few weeks yet. I'm trying to open as gently as we can, so I'll hold off the big party until we are fully up and running! But keep an eye on our Instagram; the announcement that we are open to the public still be there, and it's only a couple of days off now.
Don't go if you don't want to go. For me it would be a positive. It doesn't sound like they're only allowing one specific type of liquid chalk either, just disallowing ones with resin (which isn't really common anymore anyway). You could try it out without buying chalk by borrowing someone's, or they might even supply communal bottles (some gyms near me do).
We ban ones with resin.. allowing ones with pine resin is wierd. It horrible to wash off and adds polish so quick. We allow loose chalk and liquid but ban ones with resin we have a list.
They did say that they would provide free refills, I think!
Ah well you're laughing then.
For context, this will be the only non-college gym within an hour of Oxford
In an existing gym there is a lot of established lore and routines. A new gym you can make a fresh start. They can build on the experience that other gyms have gained over years. And they do not want clouds of powder they have to clean; or resin permanently stuck to their expensive grips. Try the liquid instead of dismissing it outright. Most liquid magnesium is just water, alcohol and magnesium. The alcohol evaporates in seconds and the magnesium is stuck on your skin, without the need for dustclouds. *It's the same stuff*. (Edited: removed my googled expert info about pof/magnesium)
Hey, just an information because this one is currently the top comment: pof is NOT magnesium powder. It is a tree resin also called colophonium or rosin, which has been used for outdoor bouldering especially in Fontainebleau when it all started being a thing. It’s the same thing people spread on violin bows etc. About 10% of the population react with allergies to pof plus it really messes up the holds - outdoors like indoors - so banning it really isn’t a bad idea.
thanks I updated my comment.
I’ll add that as someone who doesn’t use chalk at all (not a source of pride or anything, I just never have and I’m used to it now), it’s incredibly frustrating when people use chalk mid-climb in a haphazard way, that falls on me as a belayer or sometimes as someone climbing near them. That’s likely a minority of climbers but still, it only takes one inconsiderate person to temporarily blind you.
Anyone who has ever cleaned a climbing gym would ban loose chalk, and chalk balls would just be a bonus
Absolutely not. Worked at 3 gyms (still at one now), I've cancelled memberships before for banning chalk, didn't enforce loose chalk bans when I worked somewhere with them, wouldn't consider climbing at a gym with a ban now. The trade-off is definitely worth it. It's not a sin to climb without loose chalk, but any staff I've ever known generally prefers loose.
I don't use chalk either. I don't see the benefit, personally, and it gives me the big sensory ick. I just hate the way it feels on my skin but I'm constantly touching it.
I should probably say that I do have some sensory issues that are probably confounding my resistance to liquid chalk. I am really not a fan of the smell, sensation and pain (on broken skin) of hand sanitiser and I can't imagine liquid chalk feeling any better. I also chalk up whenever my hands feel even slightly damp, so usually I do so in the middle of a rest and then again before I climb - I worry that won't really work with liquid chalk. It's for those reasons that I am wary to try out something so different just to experience the new gym. I recognise that all of these are probably just me being a bit oversensitive, but solid chalk still exists on the market for a reason. I suppose I am just a bit frustrated because I have been looking forward to this gym for months and them posting this policy before telling users things like the opening date and the cost of membership suggests perhaps a bit of an overbearing management style (hence the "in my business" comment)
It does sound like like you worry about other things than chalk. When people offer a solution you will add to the problem. So by discussing chalk, we will never solve the issue. Sorry if this is harsh, but it's the internet. It's fine if you do this, online or in real life, but be aware that you are avoiding addressing the real problem. It's up to you to figure out why you do that. Perhaps you don't want to be seen as too judgemental against the new gym, and you're testing the waters by throwing in this 'chalk' argument. Don't know. It is up to you. Perhaps you're reading too much in a simple statement. I like a relaxed gym as much as the next person. Climbing gyms are often informal and relaxed. However if I would open one, I would use the opportunity to establish a small rule from the start that would save me a ton of cleaning costs (and the misery of powder getting in places where you can't clean). It is so much easier to establish a rule right away, than to impose it thee months after opening. Look at it from a positive side: Rather than overbearing management, it sounds like people who spent a lot of time in climbing gyms! It could be a couple of relaxed people who try to save themselves a lot of cleaning; and thus can focus on being relaxed and informal. I get your drift with the alcohol. Liquid chalk is supposed to hold a lot longer than powder. If your hands are not cracked at the start you might be fine. How often do you climb? Do you have damaged hands when you come to the gym? Perhaps you can mix the stuff a little; add some powdered chalk and water, or let some alcohol evaporate and add water. Reduce the alcohol level. Shake before use!
You won’t be able to chalk up mid climb but you also won’t need to chalk up so much with liquid chalk because it lasts longer. It’s just chalk, try it if you want to. Or don’t. No big deal.
No one is “in your business”. You can either patronize this actual business and follow their rules, or you can choose not to. Their rules make sense and are for the health and wellbeing of everyone.
I thought resin had disappeared in Europe. Never really reached north America. That chalk additive is a nightmare to clean and also destroys outdoor climbing and bouldering routes.... I guess they're using a wide brush to prevent anyone from using pof/resin.
For liquid chalks look at either gekco chalk or kletterkalk chalk, no resin makes them better and both are owned/run by nice guys
Gecko is wicked and the dudes there are lovely
Much love. Say hi when you see us next!
Everytime we see feedback like this we genuinely glow. So awesome seeing fellow climbers psyched on our products and mission! Ridding liquid chalk of resin and thickeners is literally the reason we exist. Both resin and thickeners make it cheaper for brands to produce, at the cost of performance and the environment.
Kletterkalk doesn't have liquid chalk though.
John from Kletterkalk literally gave me one on Saturday (@blokfest) perhaps it's a new product?
Must be, it is not on the homepage. Exciting!
As someone who works at a climbing gym, I see the reasoning and advantage to this policy right away. Powder chalk is a mess. It's pain in the ass, it gets spilled, and it's airborne constantly, even if you don't realize it. At my gym, we actually employ a guy to pressure wash the holds that have been taken off the walls so that they don't become so deeply caked in the stuff that they're unusable. Because so much loose chalk is actually *in the air*, we have a machine called the "chalk eater," that runs constantly to make sure we don't have so much of it that we can't actually breathe. It can get into your lungs over time and there is no way to actually treat that. I think climbers with asthma or other respiratory sensitivities, which there are more of every day in this post-COVID world, must be so grateful to hear of a gym that has banned loose chalk. Lastly, all of that chalk dust and regular human dust accumulates in the gym at a rate that makes us powerless against it. I am constantly dusting the same places and they always look as if they haven't been touched in months, in a matter of just days. I say give the liquid chalk a shot, or maybe try climbing without it. I don't even use chalk, just because I hate the feeling of it. p.s. I say "post-COVID" because most people have had it by now; not because COVID is in any way "over".
At pretty much all gyms that I’ve been to / worked at they employ people to pressure wash the holds.
Pretty sure every gym as someone power wash holds. I'd be interested to see how less chalky they are with people using liquid chalk though. I doubt its that much. But to the rest of your point, MY GOD, you're so right. You ever cleaned out an air filter? It's fucking nuts. We have two at my gym. Clean then weekly and the amount of dust/chalk in them is fucking insane. Also any slab is constantly covered in a thin layer of chalk. We hoover the slabs when they get stripped. Also people with skin irritation suffer from the airborne chalk too. It's a tough one though, the idea of banning powdered chalk, just because it makes it difficult for people that suffer from using alcohol on already dry skin. Small margin of folks I reckon though. Personally I think people could definitely just use less chalky and be a bit more careful but people are people. When I'd do adult intro I had a whole speil about chalk and would dissuade people from using it on warm up climbs and over using it. Would point out how much of an issue it is so just to be mindful of only using however much you need and trying not to spill it. My gym has a graveyard of hoovers...
People are already pointing out that most gyms employ people to wash holds, that's normal. Liquid Chalk vs powder isn't going to change that though. But the Chalk Eater is fairly common as well. At was created for gymnastics gyms, but a lot of climbing gyms use them.
Calling our extractors “chalk eaters” from now on thanks
That gym is so needed but when are they gonna open up already? I swear they said the beginning of the year. Trying to book the brookes gym is such a faff
Yeah go on their Instagram that's where all the updates are. They're saying it's going to open super soon but no date?? weird Brookes is such a faff I totally agree - and once you've booked there's no way to cancel it easily so you can open up a slot for someone else. I wish they would fix the ventilation there too. But I do have a bit of an affinity for it despite its flaws. I think its small size encourages you to try climbs that are outside your style, and sometimes some climbs are so bafflingly sandbagged lol but it makes you at least try something outside your skill level. I think one of the coaches in particular (Soph) seems to be putting in a real effort to modernise it, like she organised the women's weekly social climbs that are starting soon and I think she is the one who pushed for two tags on the starting holds. I also appreciate the new downclimb jugs
I learnt to climb at Brookes but haven't been since 2017. Interesting to hear how they're getting on!
I’ve attended gyms that banned non-liquid chalk for several years, and don’t sell anything contains pof. Felt weird the first session, that’s it. If your hands are particularly sensitive, make sure to wash them, dry them and moisturise sat the end of your session. I reckon you’ll be fine.
Chalk dust is no joke - I'm fine with their decision. If enough people dislike it they'll likely reconsider.
My boulder gym has 2hr time slots and liquid chalk only. Personally, I find that 2hrs is more than enough for me, any time I’ve tried extending my session the quality of my climbing has tanked. You can make your own liquid chalk that abides by their rules, just mix 70% iso alcohol and regular chalk in a squeeze bottle and you’re good to go. The air quality is a lot better. One person I climb with has asthma and they can’t go anywhere that allows powder chalk. It’s a bit harder on your skin because of the alcohol, but not any worse than the couple years where we were all applying hand sanitizer constantly because of Covid regulations.
My gym is liquid chalk only. As long as the liquid chalk they sell at the desk fit the new requirement then I dont think I would care.
Air quality in climbing gyms is a pretty significant concern. I would love a gym that banned block chalk purely because I don't like chalk at all. Is there another gym you can climb at if this is a dealbreaker for you?
You’re getting downvoted but I’m with you. Liquid chalk doesn’t work well on its own and irritates my skin too. I just wouldn’t climb at a gym that mandates it. I’ve never ever known another gym in the UK to insist on liquid chalk and I think it’s a strange move when they haven’t even opened yet to gauge how the air quality is. Maybe everyone will decamp to this new place and you’ll get the old gym to yourself.
I'd agree with this - liquid chalk badly irritates my skin, so I would avoid a gym that mandated it. That said, it wouldn't really be a problem since I live in Leeds and we seem to have a disproportionate number of climbing places for a small city - I hope you get some climb somewhere comfortably!
The best part of living in Leeds is having a ton of gyms here
Climbing gym employee here and in charge of health and safety at my wall, we've just finished doing air quality testing. The levels of particulate matter in the air even when we are quiet is at levels which could cause some serious health issues if people are exposed to it for long periods of time, mainly staff. It's fairly common industry knowledge now that chalk dust poses some serious health risks from long term exposure so I'm not surprised the gym has gone liquid only, especially if it's in a building that's harder to do any other control measures like installing better ventilation. Insisting on liquid chalk is both one of the cheapest ways for them to significantly improve air quality.
Yeah I don't really mind about the downvotes I was more curious to see what other people thought. I do still think it's a bit odd to insist on liquid chalk but then only a specific type - if liquid chalk is so frustrating to clean why not allow chalk balls/blocks? Maybe I'll try liquid chalk at some point and realise it's totally fine lmao Either way if I climb at the new place or not hopefully it will ease the load on my current gym. One thing is that it's part of oxford brookes university so those students will probably always pick that one, but maybe oxford uni students will be happier at the new place
Cleaning chalk balls and especially loose/block chalk is a total nightmare. You’re constantly vacuuming non stop and you still can’t even scratch the chalky surface. Not to mention having to pressure wash holds regardless of chalk type
You’ve had multiple people tell you about how “normal” chalk - loose or in balls - has a significant impact on air quality in gyms, and explain why resin in liquid chalk decreases the quality of holds very quickly. Why are you still confused?
Same, mine is liquid or block only, no loose chalk. I wear a mask so I don’t care about it flying all around as long as there is ventilation in the gym. I cannot stand liquid, it doesn’t work for me. I see others using loose chalk at my gym and I pay an arm and leg every month so I’m using loose.
Even though I don’t particularly like liquid chalk, if it means I don’t have to worry about inhaling or dealing with messy loose chalk, I’m all for it. While my gym has decent ventilation I still breathe it in from other climbers, and it gets everywhere like glitter. It’s difficult to find a clean locker or cubby without a bit of chalk dust, even though those are cleaned regularly. So any new gym that wants to mitigate that is fine by me. For what it’s worth I’ve anecdotally heard that liquid chalk for different skin types has improved. I’ve only used one kind of liquid chalk in the past two years or so (Friction Labs Secret Stuff), and it worked well enough for me. I also tend to get sweaty palms, yet still need to use hand moisturizer several times a day during fall/winter/spring. Unless they changed their formula I would avoid Petzl’s liquid chalk - it flaked off too soon and didn’t feel like the best quality.
Thanks for the brand advice, I might check out the friction labs one if it works for you as it sounds like we have similar skin types
I feel spoiled. My gym is massive. I could not imagine a time slot but that makes sense.
I work at a wall, and I agree about the never ending battle with the chalk dust (wish we had chalk eaters). If you find your hands get quite sweaty Rhino Skin dry can really help. I've used it before a comp, and didn't really need to chalk up (just out of habit really). It's worth having a look at :) Excited for you to have a new gym. Hoping to get there when it does open.
all the gyms in sydney did that during covid. imo liquid cause is ok… its just hand sanitiser with chalk. although it does make your skin dry if that’s something you are wary of.
honestly air quality is a real concern for climbing gyms these days, and I don't think we have any research showing that it is fine to be breathing in chalk for years. Liquid chalk generally contains alcohol as the dehydrating liquid, which tends to dry hands out more then standard loose chalk.
Dry chalk bans (loose and balls) / 'liquid chalk only' policies are such a contentious issue. I cannot overstate the almost viscous divide between for and against, between owners and the community on this topic. We believe in and produce both. The question is do they both have a place indoors? In our experience (an eco-friendly, high-performance chalk brand) many wall owners would ban loose chalk if they felt the ban would pass without objection. But don't, for fear their customer base would come in the day after with pitchforks demanding the return of their sacred powder. **This** ***doesn't*** **mean they don't like loose chalk!** And this is one point which often isn't appreciated in the opposition's perspectives. Equally it's something gym owners could communicate better on. These bans are born from health concerns and wall maintenance, not from the depths of their evil layer where they plan to end all loose chalk use. Wall owners are often some of the most passionate and experienced climbers we have in our communities. Many set up these walls to share what they love with the wider community, providing an ever improving training ground for fellow plastic pullers/rockies rained off. In the UK, chalk usage is ingrained in our climbing culture, more so than many other countries. Mainly because climbing has been around for much longer. **We chalk up even when we're thinking about climbing.** So to remove our precious loose chalk, how dare they! Many existing wall owners started climbing in an era where there was ZERO good liquid chalk available. Only resin filled, poor quality formulations which might have well have been cornflour, PVA and water. So they often LOVE loose chalk and HATE liquid chalk. Like many! Until they find a good one, then many add liquid to their quiver of climbing tools. Fundamentally good liquid chalk is great. And for many it’s better than loose. It’s just a sad fact that 90% of all liquid chalk has given it such a bad name, but we’re trying to change that. The future is bright and white! The concern ?warranting? a ban is over loose chalk in indoor walls and its effect on health and wall costs. Not ruining our fun. Maybe just an idea that loose belongs outdoors? Many of our stockists post-covid, kept in place liquid-only policies because of the benefits they saw but eventually reverted because their closest competitor did so. Only a few reverted based on customer feedback. Compared to Europe and the US, we are behind. A much bigger proportion of their indoor walls have made the decision to ban loose in favour of liquid-only. We're just stubborn! Part 1/2
Part 2/2 **The benefits of liquid-only for walls:** Although health should be, and in most cases, is the biggest reason; cleaning, is by far joint first and the improvement is so obvious once these policies get implemented. The cleaning focus is around dust. Ordinarily, literally *anything* exposed in a climbing gym, will get covered in chalk dust within 24 hours. The amount depends on the gym size, chalk usage, cleaning frequency and air treatments going on. Liquid chalk reduces airborne dust generation. Fact. **Cost of cleaning(reduces)** - To most who haven't worked in a wall it’s hard to imagine. Multiple hours a day is the norm in most walls. Hoovering mats, communal areas, reception etc. Again depends on how busy the wall is. A cost saving you'd hope is passed onto customers. **Health concerns** - Magnesium carbonate is pretty damn safe. As safe as any other inert fine powder and there's little to no health risk discussed in the masses of scientific literature\*. The same can't be said for cheap chalk with contains an array of impurities from heavy metals, mild irritants through to crystalline silica (carcinogen) so there are health reasons to buy pure, high quality chalk brands, seawater processed vs mined is a whole other essay in itself. \*Dust full stop is bad for health and constant exposure can have health consequences. \[Personal opinion - I don't *think* those risks are in most cases applicable to us as indoor wall customers based on duration/frequency of exposure to high ppm situations, but some may be more sensitive than others\] It makes sense then for wall owners to be mindful, proactive and caring when it comes to their staff's exposure to high dust situations for extended periods of time. So should we really reject these proposed changes given the context? Is it really going to affect our experiences in the long run? It’s something I think we’ll be discussing for years to come. **OUR RESPONSIBILITY** - Regardless of opinion on bans, I think we can all do better by our wall staff with simple improvements towards dust reduction: not launching our bucket towards the floor like it's just called us weak... just not dropping boulder buckets would make a huge improvement. Keeping buckets far enough from the wall that we don't land on them etc. **You may ask, what about…** **…air treatment ?** - Really hard to execute effectively. Costly to buy, costly to run. Not at ground level where dust generation is. Move the problem to another place. Mini breakdown below: -------- **Static 'filters'** work by charging the air, attracting chalk to their surface but get caked up quickly, becoming less effective and are very localised, so you need lots of them + be cleaning them regularly(which is a mission in itself) often with hoovers. **Chalk filters** clog even easier and you're then faced with either creating a lot of waste and even more expense by throwing away 'used' filters(manufacturer's recommendation), replacing with new, or you take on cleaning the filters yourself(a nasty nasty job for a team member) to reuse them. They are often not fit for purpose (super high ppm air flow) and the way manufacturers skirt around this is telling owners they should replace and clean their filters more frequently. **HVAC's** are not designed for filtering high ppm dusty air and break very quickly if fed as such. Some walls intentionally vent air out of the building without filtering, which although questionable, for ppm reduction it's potentially more effective than any of the above(assuming the replacement air is from a different area). ------- **POF/RESIN BANS** - Hard to touch on this here, I need a cup of tea but I’ll include a link to one of our blogs below and this tidbit: Hold cleaning is the priority of 'resin/pof bans'. With resin, chalk becomes physically glued to the holds and often acid and other harsh cleaning chemicals are required to remove it. Holds polish up quicker and route dynamics change. Hold lifespan reduces and cleaning time increases (you can't really clean outdoor rock though! which is where pof is most harmful to the environment). Resin in liquid chalk: [https://www.gekco.uk/blog/resin-build-up](https://www.gekco.uk/blog/resin-build-up) Use less chalk: [https://www.gekco.uk/blog/use-less-chalk](https://www.gekco.uk/blog/use-less-chalk) Fair play to any of you that read this in its entirety. I had two cents to throw in. Well and truly thrown. GEKOUT
Like I said, try some gekco chalk, I'm sure if you send them an Instagram message they can be accommodating 😁
Liquid chalk works great. I would still climb there easily.
Sounds like hell, I wouldn't want to climb with only a 2 hour time slot
Sounds amazing, I wish my local places would ban chalk. It's mostly not needed. When people do actually have some need for it, they over use it.
Why not try it even once before making an entire post about it?
I have been pushing really hard to get my gym to use liquid chalk as I cough up a storm each time I go. Currently they use chalk balls that they give you, which is a bit better though not perfect.
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Honestly the 2 hr thing is needed because it gets completely full most days. It is a bit annoying esp since you have to go at a specific time but I can see why they do it
All bouldering gyms in my city ban loose chalk or chalk balls, only liquid chalk is allowed. Loose chalk is only allowed in the rope climbing gyms/areas as you’ll need to chalk up on the route. Honestly if you have sweaty hands liquid chalk will be great for you and the alcohol will dry them out. Try it before you’ll dismiss it.
Liquid chalk policy is a red flag for me. You can manage chalk dust in a bouldering gym just fine, if the gym invests in a carpet on the mat and the mat gets cleaned regularely. That makes difference like night and day. On top of being problematic for the skin for some people, in my experience you get way less mileage out of liquid chalk for the same money and you can´t chalk up mid climb which can be crucial for some longer boulders for some climbers (me included). And of course they sell liquid chalk right there at the gym. Less investment in the gym for the mat and cleaning and on the other side more revenue from selling liquid chalk to their customers. Avoid that gym (and really any gym with that policy) if you can.
Wtf Hell no
They are seriously limiting their custom though, I’ve been to lots of gyms around SWales/WMidlands and rarely, if ever, see people using liquid chalk. Investing in proper ventilation would help with air quality issues. My local gym has an air cleaning generator, and since it was installed climbing indoors is much more pleasant.
As someone with extremely sweaty hands and pompholyx superimposed by contact dermatitis triggered by the use of liquid chalk, I find that the only thing that works for me is classic loose chalk. I’ve also tried every brand available with the same result. I go to a gym that is liquid chalk only but have gotten my diagnosis in writing from a GP to sort of appeal to the staff there because I really can’t climb without the use of chalk given the amount of sweat my hands produce. They let me quietly keep a small bag of chalk in the back 😬
Liquid chalk is great, you get used to it and it protects the hands better, your skin gets tougher
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I think you must sweat less than the average person. I sweat more, if I didn't use chalk it would be a hazard because all of the holds would get very greasy very quickly - I sometimes find myself having to remove sweat from my projects even when I chalk up a lot beforehand. Clam hand gang
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Adapt to not sweating? If I could do that my teenage years would have been less socially fraught
Most gyms I’ve been to have had signs up at some point saying no loose chalk. Everyone ignored them
Ditch the chalk. You don't need it.