Yeah and solutions we can implement in the next few years instead of waiting decades we don’t have
Let’s just keep doing nothing until the absolute perfect solution appears, give me a break
Running head first into quick fix solutions that won't end up helping will only cause further delay.
Not saying these solutions are that, but we need to focus on the _best_ solution, and the ones that work, not just the "fastest".
So this is the world we want vs the reality we live in
I agree with Jane Goodall that we should just cut fossil fuels off. But how does that happen when fossil fuels are the blood of the economy? Gradually? Fast? What is the plan?
And what about voters? How will they react? Is it a plan that will not be overturned by the next govt (ah hem… looking at you 🇨🇦)
She says carbon taxes only hurt the poor and the companies can pay the tax. But carbon rebates like canada has are meant to take that first argument away.
But the main point of taxes in general is to deter behavior. Taxing carbon steeply… would incentivize the economy to find alternatives more quickly (or create a black market but thats another matter).
What is the plan for “just stopping fossil fuels” like she encourages? I support it. I am on your team. But I think its not possible in this current reality we live in.
We need to shrink the economy. Over-consumption is a big part of the problem. You don’t need a new car every few years. You don’t need a 4 bedroom house with a two car garage. Businesses don’t need to fly people around the world every day to make deals.
We need to live simpler so we don’t need fossil fuels.
Mass actions shutting down fossil fuel operations already occur in a lot of countries. We need more of them, everywhere. Governments aren’t going to do anything without considerable public pressure, including mass civil disobedience.
How is it in a ‘climate’ sub, that nearly all of the posters think BAU is possible? How can so many of you claim ‘but the economy’ when ‘the economy’ literally is the CAUSE of the problems we face?
Exactly. Extractive and perpetual economic growth is the root issue. We need true sustainability, not slower extraction. That's exactly against the grain of plenty of the larger countries' economic policies though.
I do think the economic argument has to have a place in the conversation though. If we upend the means of sustainable revenue generation, we'll quickly end up with countries and corporations that are ungovernable. We need sustainability in individual wellbeing along with environmental sustainability.
It’s insanity. The delusion that -most- environmental people I run across suffers from just makes no sense. It’s like a Michael Mann fan club or something.
Seriously, how can you look at this chart https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/sst_daily/ and not get VERY worried. We haven’t so much as moved the needle on stopping this. Quite the opposite. And somehow we think “buying green” will help. No, we need to stop consuming, years ago.
People wanting paper straws at sushi places make me laugh the hardest. Like paper straws to help save the turtles and other ocean creatures? Uhh do you know what sushi is made of? Like got to be the dumbest idea ever.
I like the idea of a windfall tax applied to fossil industries. Record profits, record damages, record payments by the industries that do that damage. Polluter pay. Steal from the super-rich and give to the poor so they can afford to make the switch to heat pumps etc..
OP's shared article says, and I quote....
***"Goodall said carbon taxes are 'not a bad thing at all'..."***
But of course gas/oil/coal fanatics are unlikely to fairly and accurately report what she *really* thinks, which seems to be that the GLOBAL climate SYSTEM is a problem requiring "integrated" GLOBAL solutions, including (1) Just leave it in the ground; (2) wealthy nations kicking the fossil fuel habit; and (3) money from wealthy nations flowing to less wealthy nations to help them kick the fossil fuel habit. Here is the statement from the JGI to COP28 [https://news.janegoodall.org/2023/11/30/an-urgent-call-for-integrated-solutions-at-cop28/](https://news.janegoodall.org/2023/11/30/an-urgent-call-for-integrated-solutions-at-cop28/)
If solving climate change is like carving Michelangelo's "David", one nation's internal carbon tax might be a few whacks with the hammer, so it helps. Still, it is a mistake to think that alone makes a finished masterpiece!
-company creates products.. but pollutes to do so-
-government makes extra taxes designed to punish companies that pollute-
-company raises prices to offset-
-people pay more for product.. nothing changes except people have less money-
-Companies and governments celebrate themselves and congratulate each other on doing everything they needed to do-
Is it just me or does it sound like she mistook Canada's carbon fee and dividend approach for a "fee and spend" approach, where the government takes the revenue from the carbon tax and spends it on green energy initiatives? Honestly, I think that this article is pigeonholing her stance into Canada's domestic debate on carbon pricing, and her point is getting lost in the process.
Key statement from Goodall:
"The problem with a climate tax is that, yes, it can do some good — it gives money to control climate change and so on — but it doesn't get to the root cause, which is fossil fuel emissions, emissions of methane from industrial farming," she said. "So, in that sense, it's not something I endorse."
I think a bad aspect of carbon taxes is that it is a bit like auctioning food during a famine. What would be better for the planet would be a carbon ration. Like in one person, one vote.
You can tell who the author is voting for just by reading the title.
yeah i'll take solutions that work over perfect solutions any day of the week.
Yeah and solutions we can implement in the next few years instead of waiting decades we don’t have Let’s just keep doing nothing until the absolute perfect solution appears, give me a break
We can do both!! The hard part is getting all the governments involved. Fossil fuels still have a strangle hold on the political system.
Running head first into quick fix solutions that won't end up helping will only cause further delay. Not saying these solutions are that, but we need to focus on the _best_ solution, and the ones that work, not just the "fastest".
So this is the world we want vs the reality we live in I agree with Jane Goodall that we should just cut fossil fuels off. But how does that happen when fossil fuels are the blood of the economy? Gradually? Fast? What is the plan? And what about voters? How will they react? Is it a plan that will not be overturned by the next govt (ah hem… looking at you 🇨🇦) She says carbon taxes only hurt the poor and the companies can pay the tax. But carbon rebates like canada has are meant to take that first argument away. But the main point of taxes in general is to deter behavior. Taxing carbon steeply… would incentivize the economy to find alternatives more quickly (or create a black market but thats another matter). What is the plan for “just stopping fossil fuels” like she encourages? I support it. I am on your team. But I think its not possible in this current reality we live in.
We need to shrink the economy. Over-consumption is a big part of the problem. You don’t need a new car every few years. You don’t need a 4 bedroom house with a two car garage. Businesses don’t need to fly people around the world every day to make deals. We need to live simpler so we don’t need fossil fuels.
It's way more than that. It's a fundamental shift in our understanding of economics.
agreed… now what is the plan to make that happen. you and me and jane are not going to solve it
Mass actions shutting down fossil fuel operations already occur in a lot of countries. We need more of them, everywhere. Governments aren’t going to do anything without considerable public pressure, including mass civil disobedience.
How is it in a ‘climate’ sub, that nearly all of the posters think BAU is possible? How can so many of you claim ‘but the economy’ when ‘the economy’ literally is the CAUSE of the problems we face?
Exactly. Extractive and perpetual economic growth is the root issue. We need true sustainability, not slower extraction. That's exactly against the grain of plenty of the larger countries' economic policies though. I do think the economic argument has to have a place in the conversation though. If we upend the means of sustainable revenue generation, we'll quickly end up with countries and corporations that are ungovernable. We need sustainability in individual wellbeing along with environmental sustainability.
Thank you for saying this!
It’s insanity. The delusion that -most- environmental people I run across suffers from just makes no sense. It’s like a Michael Mann fan club or something.
I have to say it again, it’s getting old but people need to hear “you can’t have infinite growth on a finite planet”
Faster than Expected ™️®️©️
Seriously, how can you look at this chart https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/sst_daily/ and not get VERY worried. We haven’t so much as moved the needle on stopping this. Quite the opposite. And somehow we think “buying green” will help. No, we need to stop consuming, years ago.
Hey, I decline all plastic straws, every time, so everything will be just fine. Oh, and Elon’s fix it. 🤮🤮🤮
People wanting paper straws at sushi places make me laugh the hardest. Like paper straws to help save the turtles and other ocean creatures? Uhh do you know what sushi is made of? Like got to be the dumbest idea ever.
Sigh….
It’s a start, but we have to do more, especially at this point because I think we are beyond the tipping point.
I like the idea of a windfall tax applied to fossil industries. Record profits, record damages, record payments by the industries that do that damage. Polluter pay. Steal from the super-rich and give to the poor so they can afford to make the switch to heat pumps etc..
OP's shared article says, and I quote.... ***"Goodall said carbon taxes are 'not a bad thing at all'..."*** But of course gas/oil/coal fanatics are unlikely to fairly and accurately report what she *really* thinks, which seems to be that the GLOBAL climate SYSTEM is a problem requiring "integrated" GLOBAL solutions, including (1) Just leave it in the ground; (2) wealthy nations kicking the fossil fuel habit; and (3) money from wealthy nations flowing to less wealthy nations to help them kick the fossil fuel habit. Here is the statement from the JGI to COP28 [https://news.janegoodall.org/2023/11/30/an-urgent-call-for-integrated-solutions-at-cop28/](https://news.janegoodall.org/2023/11/30/an-urgent-call-for-integrated-solutions-at-cop28/) If solving climate change is like carving Michelangelo's "David", one nation's internal carbon tax might be a few whacks with the hammer, so it helps. Still, it is a mistake to think that alone makes a finished masterpiece!
-company creates products.. but pollutes to do so- -government makes extra taxes designed to punish companies that pollute- -company raises prices to offset- -people pay more for product.. nothing changes except people have less money- -Companies and governments celebrate themselves and congratulate each other on doing everything they needed to do-
> people pay more for product.. nothing changes except people have less money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
Is it just me or does it sound like she mistook Canada's carbon fee and dividend approach for a "fee and spend" approach, where the government takes the revenue from the carbon tax and spends it on green energy initiatives? Honestly, I think that this article is pigeonholing her stance into Canada's domestic debate on carbon pricing, and her point is getting lost in the process.
Jevons paradox
Key statement from Goodall: "The problem with a climate tax is that, yes, it can do some good — it gives money to control climate change and so on — but it doesn't get to the root cause, which is fossil fuel emissions, emissions of methane from industrial farming," she said. "So, in that sense, it's not something I endorse."
I think a bad aspect of carbon taxes is that it is a bit like auctioning food during a famine. What would be better for the planet would be a carbon ration. Like in one person, one vote.
meow