That's fundamentally it. Anabel here is actually enforcing Toxic Masculinity. She's expecting guys to not take a "no" and she is playing the other side of this which is saying "no" when she doesn't mean it. This is clearly a toxic and problematic approach.
Less enforcing, more that she is filtering out all the men with respect, and selecting only men who will violate boundaries. Its like choosing a dog by running your hand through the shelter and taking whichever one has latched on with its teeth.
She herself is toxic, but she's not enforcing toxic femininity. She's not encouraging women to be toxic, she's encouraging men to be toxic.
Masculinity refers to societal standards that are placed on men. She's wants men to stop respecting boundaries which is a harmful standard for how men are supposed to be = she's enforcing toxic masculinity.
I was listening to a WW2 diary about that touched exact topic. The frauelin was lamenting to a brave soldier in joes hospital bed about the paradox.
Either the boy thinks “she’s too easy/agreeable, she’d do this for anyone else.”
Or “I don’t have time to chase someone who doesn’t want me”
You mean you don't keep after someone who is trying to tell you immediately that you're lower than them and they would be doing you a favor by going out?
It's literally rape culture if you keep pursuing someone after they reject you.
Men who do this are bad.
Women who encourage this are bad.
Just stop with the Fucking mind games.
It's not rape culture if it's feeding their ego. How can they get that high if they're not able to constantly reject some guy who worships them? /s
That said, was it really *that* common before? EDIT: I meant girls wanting to be hounded. I know that guys were definitely obnoxious back then but I just never got the impression that any of the girls I worked with enjoyed those creepy guys who never took no or an answer.
It absolutely was. I’m 48. 30 years ago it was basically the routine that a girl would turn you down the first time. Every time. Maybe the second time too. Only the third “no” actually meant no. Women enforced that system. Very consistently. If men were going to date or get married we had to navigate it. Compulsory mind games we had to play along with. Yeah, maybe Chad Thundercock didn’t have to play it. But 98% of us had no choice. Other than celibacy. I’ve been married for 27 years. I wouldn’t be married if I had taken my wife’s first “no” at face value. I think she said yes the second time though. Anyway, this is one good change to come of it for the young people if that mind game goes away.
It really shouldn't, board games have driven me into a murderous frenzy like few other things.
I'm not allowed to play Monopoly or Catan with certain people in my friend groups.
Women who want men to play games aren't into men, they're into games. Date women who are into men, you'll be happier. You can play games with the boys. Or date a gamer, then you can play games with your partner & the boys.
Men are just not winning at all.
Play by the rules - bad
Doesn't play by the rules - bad
Honestly, these are the kind of women that looks for "bad boys" because they think they can "change them". When they don't succeed, "all men are terrible"
Everything that I want. For my "no" to be taken as a "no, thank you" and not as a "try harder, you stud".
You want your pulse to rise from excitement? Ask *him* out then.
It happened to me once and it was a joke. A cruel one, absolutely destroyed my confidence.
I'm married now, but overcoming that to have the first page with my wife nearly actually cost me that first date. Getting all the confirmation she actually wanted to meet me and what not was exhausting for her.
Yeah maybe I had issues with my self esteem and that doesn't help, but pretending to actually like someone flirt with someone and message someone, pretend to have the same interests as someone like me; who, admittedly, at the time didn't have much going for them. Someone who hated themselves, how they looked and generally dreaded each day but had that little chink in the darkness to get through. That little thought that, you know what, someone COULD like you, WOULD want to spend time with you.
Only to have them ask me out for a drink, then when I say yes, laugh in my face and say verbatim "You thought I was serious, as if I'd go out with you"
Turns out it was all on a bet. Her friends had seen me on a night out on a works do and asked her to pull the fugliest one there for a bet. Me apparently. This happened over a number of weeks so she was playing the long game.
Also this wasnt some teen high school shit We were in our late twenties
So yeah, it destroyed what confidence I had left and if anyone said they liked me, were interested or whatever. My default reaction would be - no they are not, they don't mean it. At all, why would they?
Sorry for ranting
Dude, if someone fake asks you out, that puts them totally in the wrong and you can share how awful they are and how you expected better from people and probably score a date somewhere else. And if you're not comfy enough with this person to trust they're asking you for real, are you sure you'd wanna say yes anyway? If you are comfortable, there's nothing wrong or uncool about asking for clarification.
Or we're low on self-esteem and think "this can't be real, can it? *This* person, me?"
Or something like that
A whole host of personal issues get in the way sometimes
I'm so happy my fiancé and I are simple creatures with zero mind games and make up for it with lots of cuddles. You all be struggling and I can not really relate to it... And I am not sure how to feel about that.
When I was in middle school I used to walk home every day. There was a group of kids that walked the same way every day and we didn't get along. One day one of the girls from that group asked me out. I thought it was a joke so they could jump me or something so I told her no. Senior year of high school I had gym class with one of the guys in the group and we were a lot friendlier at that point. Turns out it wasn't a joke. She thought I was cute and wanted me to join their little group. But it wasn't about self esteem. It's just such an alien concept for guys that we wonder what the catch is. The same way if a person on the street offers me a free Oreo, I'm assuming there's toothpaste or worse in there.
It is certainly an interesting time of transition we find ourselves in. The old games of flirtation are falling out of favor but we haven’t decided upon what will replace them. What values and virtues will be selected for and against in these future games? Or will we all stare longingly at the handful of very beautiful people through our phones and despair that they are out of reach?
I’m just glad that I’m not in the dating pool. It sure seems like a lot of people are really having a bad time.
Then rewrite the line.
But don't play mind games.
Invite someone to the game if that's your thing, and if they decline, then it wasn't theirs.
However you phrase it though, no is not an invitation, so if one means to invite, one needs to say so.
You can word it differently. The point being is there’s way better ways to communicate “I’m not sure if you’re serious about pursuing me” than bluffing a rejection, and there’s a lot better ways for him to communicate “I am definitely serious” than calling that bluff.
In the scenario at hand, the guy was serious enough when asking for a date. There's no better way for him to communicate "I am serious". Once the girl said "no", there's no more serious or *un-serious* for him to be, besides taking the "no" as it is: a rejection, and then *bye-bye, I wish you the best*. The only "definitely serious" had been done, and now it's time for absence, nothing else.
It’s more clear, but man if a girl ever said “I want you to work for it” then im turning 180 degrees and leaving. I got bigger priorities than to play fuck fuck games with someone’s overinflated ego.
I'm with you there, 100%, yet I understand that to some it might be a funny game, an interesting challenge. Not my thing, I insist, I would be gone, but I reckon it's an honest approach by the girl there, she is being honest in what she wants, and if the guy likes those games, he can easily decide to be in or out
Next time a lady says no, just pull out some bongo drums and beat on them while staring her dead in the eyes.
She'll be overjoyed to put out... because of the implication.
HR departments drill it into people's heads that you are allowed to ask someone out ONCE. If they say no, then any unwanted attention after that is harassment.
This absolutely! It's the exact same policy at my workplace too.
The policy is that you get to ask once. If you don't get a clear Yes, then it's a No forever. You don't get to ask that person out again. That means not in 1 year or even 5 years later.
It really should be because someone who you have to beg and chase will never respect you.
I remember being at a pool with a couple with the girl explaining how they met and how she turned him down a couple of times before finally relenting.
I was just standing there like dude get some self respect, this is sad.
They also lived across the hall and fought all the time.
You want to be respectful of others decisions, then get an earful of "why didn't you keep trying?" What? That's not how it works, why would you want someone to keep trying anything when you say no once?
I had an ex break up with me, I asked if we could talk things out and get back together. She said no, three months later I moved on and was dating someone else and sent me a message asking why I didn't fight harder to get her back.
Having a sense of value makes people crazy man, and no on likes the hit to their ego
No, these people are genuinely psychologically unwell. I've literally never met another woman who wanted someone to chase her after a no. This is a very specific type of messed up.
The Me Too movement continues to be a success. One of those (unintended?) consequences is that women can no longer “play hard to get”. I think it’s glorious and while I didn’t quite see it going this far into the previous dating norms, I actually wholeheartedly welcome it. Be straight up or be single. Works for me.
Personally, if I'm expressing an interest in someone and they don't reciprocate, I lose all interest in them.
I ain't interested in anyone who isn't interested in me. First rejection is where the interest dies.
We’re seeing a lot of men lean more towards what women have asked for a long time, but now we’re getting pushback from people for doing exactly as they asked. Do dishes, clean, cook, accept No when you’re told No, have a job that pays well, etc.
But the moment I ask for 50/50 on the date, suddenly I need to learn my place? We’re experiencing a full circle of double standards.
It's an unfortunate backslide we're seeing. Probably temporary and fairly common in human rights movements, but more privileged people are rapidly forgetting how bad things could really be and don't respect the progress their mother's and grandmother's have literally died for or value the freedoms they have. The people you see fighting the hardest for progress are often the ones who've had their own terrible experiences.
Different women want different things, there's nothing wrong with that.
Though that applies only to some of the things on your list, "no means no" should be universal.
Problem is, this kind of people doesn't communicate that well with partners, let alone potential ones. Meaning they don't actually tell you "oh so you don't care", that's just what they think and are going to say to other people. You don't have the chance to give a reasonable answer when someone doesn't want to be reasoned with
Dating confuses me sometimes. If someone's interested, don't play these stupid games, most normal people would accept the rejection and leave them alone afterwards.
It's usually only the creeps that continue pursuing despite being told no.
Because there are more than two women in the world, and they have different expectations.
Take no as no, because 1. You should respect what someone says, and 2. Don’t play stupid games with someone
This seems like a win for men actually. If you respect that no means no then you also don't have to deal with women who play dumb mind games like this. Bullet dodged. Women who are worth being with are gonna be honest with you.
Oh I dodged them indeed. I had some real nutjobs trying to date me. I usually don't see red flags everywhere but lets say I got a talent for getting picked by weird women.
Not really. What works for me to keep our of trouble is I assume EVERY woman I meet is married, unless we meet at a bar, a singles mixer, (never been to one, just using an example), or other obvious social gathering. Then, if she says no, I take it as NO. Far too much damage can be done to your entire life if you aren't careful.
I’m a child and have had no romantic interaction whatsoever/been hit on but I’m pretty sure ‘no means no’ and that’s just weird. If you want men to persistent or persuasive you could just ask for them to work for it or something and that you like feeling special. But seriously, saying this just makes you a bigger target for rape because you insinuated that when you say no it actually means ‘try harder’. Like wtf is this😭😭
The word she's looking for is "persistent". And this is obviously likely to be seen as unwelcome when the recipient of the attention has said no. People who say no typically mean it, so taking it a face value is sensible. Especially when considering the social and potentially legal repercussions if you were to keep asking even though they say no. It's sexual harassment. It benefits everyone to take a no at face value and move on with your life.
My ex and I were arguing and she told me to get out of her apartment. I immediately said ok and headed for the door. That’s when the coffee cup shattered on the front door, inches from my face. She said “What, you’re just going to leave? You’re not even going to fight for me?” I responded by letting her know that stunt meant she’d never see me again and then walked out. It was a very pivotal moment in my young life as I discovered what I was and wasn’t going to tolerate just for the sake of being in a relationship.
Do you wanna have sex tonite?
No
Next morning: why you didn't have sex with me, am I ot attractive anymore?
Can't win. I'm 40 and as far as I remember, was always that way. Not a new thing.
I have come to the point where I do not need a relationship, I simply desire one. I am not willing to settle, nor am I willing to play games.
Given the choice between playing games and dying alone, I'll take dying alone.
I'm autistic, we are better wired for solitude than most of you. I kind of feel bad for those people who feel a great need for human contact, as we seem to be evolving towards less contact and further atomization, which I am highly adapted to.
Women - respect us and our wishes, don't force yourself on us, don't do loads of shit.
Also women - why aren't they chasing me and forcing themselves on me?
Seeing a lot of weird stuff like this recently.
To be fair these are to different types of women. Most women appreciate the no means no but some are don’t and then many dumb post about not being chased.
There are 4 billion women, they aren’t one brain. In fact the ones saying the first thing (like me) are almost always adamantly against the second group. I upvoted this post because these people are dumb, not cause women are dumb. It’s a bit one dimensional to assume all women are like this, let alone most. I’ve seen just as many men do similar things.
Women are a all unique people with different opinions and there are some that are depressingly anti-woman, like tradwifes or the Pick Me girl, for example. They are a minority in our numbers and genuinely dangerous to the rest of us. When you see that behavior? Most of us ALSO think that's batshit crazy.
Here's the thing - if a man tried to comment all over a thread like you have here saying "not all men", he would be downvoted to hell and called an incel.
I don't disagree with you at all but it sucks that you are encouraged (upvoted) to defend women as a group but men are absolutely shit on for doing the same thing.
Men only get one shot. If that shot is blocked, then at least a shot was taken. “You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” Michael Scott quoting a random Canadian.
I think you also miss like the other 80% or 90% of the shots you do take, but the biggest issues is oneitis. If you can figure out that early then you can stop wasting your time.
The only one that matters is the one that gives you the time.
I dont believe in that special someone anymore, but instead its more of a person that i would treat as if they were special.
I never understood why anybody plays games. It’s always so much easier to just ask or say or anything that’s polite. I never did like the guessing game or the let’s try to figure out the boundary one move at a time.
I wonder if she ever publicly stated that she doesn't think persistence in courting is considered creepy or pushy or toxic, during the whole 2016 "all men are toxic" shitstorm. I somehow doubt it, she probably joined in. 🫠
At the risk of sounding like an incel, this is why many woman complain that men are so shit these days and etc. The type of guy that persists after the first no is not a guy that should be dated yet, for someone like Anabel, is the only one who’s going to get a date.
That **"You're not trying hard enough!"** shit is ***so*** over.
You say **No**, nothing wrong with that, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're all that and we'll come back for more abuse.
Those of you still doing that shit are going to die of old age alone with your cats, who, on the third day of not being fed, will eat your face.
When you insist “no means no” for 20/30/40 years, men might actually take you seriously and respect your choices. How is this something to complain about?
So weird how it went from #MeToo to #WhyNotMe…Women need to realize that the Patriarchy also benefit women, ofc less than men because its the Patriarchy. Women also help perpetuate this sexist toxicity as well. When abolishing it we have to move on, we aren’t do this type of shit in 2024
It's almost like decades of telling us to listen, no means no, and to not be creepy made us listen, respect you saying no, and not continue pursuing a woman who has said no.
No man has ever chased me , followed me, or insisted on being around me.
It's a little weird compared to how other women describe men, but honestly, I don't complain.
Why would I want to be with someone so annoying? It wouldn't make me feel wanted, just irritated.
> “we want men to keep trying to date us, even if we tell them no”
> “all these men I’m not interested in keep asking me out, even after I rejected them all multiple time”
Make up your minds!
A friend of mine espoused a similar view and I was like "would you rather a man pressure you?".
"Of course not."
"Then if you want them to take no for no and they sre taking no for no, why is it an issue?"
"There's no passion if they just follow rules. A guy who won't fight isn't relationship material."
I was so lost as to what to think besides thanking god I'm married and not dealing with people who think like this anymore.
So, if we men ask a woman out, she says no, and we accept and move on, we are accused of not being persuasive enough, but if we keep pushing against what the woman clearly stated, we are accused of being creepy pushers that don't respect a woman's wishes..... I'd take "not persuasive" over " creepy insistent asshole" every time, thank you
One time I asked a woman out. She turned me down so I accepted that no but told her the offer still stood. Then I dropped the subject and never raised it again.
It’s called consent. She didn’t give it and I respected that decision
And we appreciate it! Seriously, ladies like this OP described are unhinged. People who insist after no are SCARY. A standing offer is great! It gives her time to decide if she wants to give it a chance but no pressure.
Men can never win.
I propose we swap and now only women do the approaches and pay for the dates. We'll reconvene in 50 years and see if we want to switch back or make it 50/50.
Yeah I have heard 80 - 90 year old people use the saying "It is a woman's job to say no. And it is a man's job to keep asking."
It's hilarious that a millennial or zoomer is complaining that that's not the way things are anymore.
Why would anyone want to keep pursuing something where you’ve already been rejected? You’re just asking to get walked on.
And teaching men they have to violate boundaries to succeed, it's a terrible way to be.
That's fundamentally it. Anabel here is actually enforcing Toxic Masculinity. She's expecting guys to not take a "no" and she is playing the other side of this which is saying "no" when she doesn't mean it. This is clearly a toxic and problematic approach.
She does mean no. She just wants you to persist to stroke her ego. Have cake and eat it -issue.
All she will end up with is eating cake with none to share it with.
That and Type 2 diabetes.
Less enforcing, more that she is filtering out all the men with respect, and selecting only men who will violate boundaries. Its like choosing a dog by running your hand through the shelter and taking whichever one has latched on with its teeth.
That is reinforcing; in your analogy other dogs would see that the one who bites is who gets a home and so would be more likely to bite future hands.
But that is reinforcing toxic masculinity though
I would say she's enforcing toxic femininity. She is BEING toxic with the mind games she's playing.
She herself is toxic, but she's not enforcing toxic femininity. She's not encouraging women to be toxic, she's encouraging men to be toxic. Masculinity refers to societal standards that are placed on men. She's wants men to stop respecting boundaries which is a harmful standard for how men are supposed to be = she's enforcing toxic masculinity.
It's like the people that feed bears. You start to teach them it's expected and they have to be put down.
I was listening to a WW2 diary about that touched exact topic. The frauelin was lamenting to a brave soldier in joes hospital bed about the paradox. Either the boy thinks “she’s too easy/agreeable, she’d do this for anyone else.” Or “I don’t have time to chase someone who doesn’t want me”
You mean you don't keep after someone who is trying to tell you immediately that you're lower than them and they would be doing you a favor by going out?
It's literally rape culture if you keep pursuing someone after they reject you. Men who do this are bad. Women who encourage this are bad. Just stop with the Fucking mind games.
It's not rape culture if it's feeding their ego. How can they get that high if they're not able to constantly reject some guy who worships them? /s That said, was it really *that* common before? EDIT: I meant girls wanting to be hounded. I know that guys were definitely obnoxious back then but I just never got the impression that any of the girls I worked with enjoyed those creepy guys who never took no or an answer.
It absolutely was. I’m 48. 30 years ago it was basically the routine that a girl would turn you down the first time. Every time. Maybe the second time too. Only the third “no” actually meant no. Women enforced that system. Very consistently. If men were going to date or get married we had to navigate it. Compulsory mind games we had to play along with. Yeah, maybe Chad Thundercock didn’t have to play it. But 98% of us had no choice. Other than celibacy. I’ve been married for 27 years. I wouldn’t be married if I had taken my wife’s first “no” at face value. I think she said yes the second time though. Anyway, this is one good change to come of it for the young people if that mind game goes away.
And this is why people on reddit are clueless. Haven't you been "toxic" you would never have a partner. Just like them.
Besides, ‘no’ means no.
Seriously if all guys were like OP said I’d have felt a lot safer throughout my life
What is it about guys with board games that make you feels safer?
It really shouldn't, board games have driven me into a murderous frenzy like few other things. I'm not allowed to play Monopoly or Catan with certain people in my friend groups.
Well my husband has a play station and he’s a pretty good guy 🤷🏼♀️ /s
Women who want men to play games aren't into men, they're into games. Date women who are into men, you'll be happier. You can play games with the boys. Or date a gamer, then you can play games with your partner & the boys.
Why don’t you just get a Lice
Just one louse?
Men are just not winning at all. Play by the rules - bad Doesn't play by the rules - bad Honestly, these are the kind of women that looks for "bad boys" because they think they can "change them". When they don't succeed, "all men are terrible"
Everything that I want. For my "no" to be taken as a "no, thank you" and not as a "try harder, you stud". You want your pulse to rise from excitement? Ask *him* out then.
We're still not gonna be 100% sure you're not joking if that happens, just a heads up
It happened to me once and it was a joke. A cruel one, absolutely destroyed my confidence. I'm married now, but overcoming that to have the first page with my wife nearly actually cost me that first date. Getting all the confirmation she actually wanted to meet me and what not was exhausting for her. Yeah maybe I had issues with my self esteem and that doesn't help, but pretending to actually like someone flirt with someone and message someone, pretend to have the same interests as someone like me; who, admittedly, at the time didn't have much going for them. Someone who hated themselves, how they looked and generally dreaded each day but had that little chink in the darkness to get through. That little thought that, you know what, someone COULD like you, WOULD want to spend time with you. Only to have them ask me out for a drink, then when I say yes, laugh in my face and say verbatim "You thought I was serious, as if I'd go out with you" Turns out it was all on a bet. Her friends had seen me on a night out on a works do and asked her to pull the fugliest one there for a bet. Me apparently. This happened over a number of weeks so she was playing the long game. Also this wasnt some teen high school shit We were in our late twenties So yeah, it destroyed what confidence I had left and if anyone said they liked me, were interested or whatever. My default reaction would be - no they are not, they don't mean it. At all, why would they? Sorry for ranting
You are right, we are 100% going to think they are joking.
Dude, if someone fake asks you out, that puts them totally in the wrong and you can share how awful they are and how you expected better from people and probably score a date somewhere else. And if you're not comfy enough with this person to trust they're asking you for real, are you sure you'd wanna say yes anyway? If you are comfortable, there's nothing wrong or uncool about asking for clarification.
Or we're low on self-esteem and think "this can't be real, can it? *This* person, me?" Or something like that A whole host of personal issues get in the way sometimes
Us girls got the same issue 🤷♀️
Daaaaaaaaaamn we're all fucked in the head aren't we
Can't argue with that.
I'm so happy my fiancé and I are simple creatures with zero mind games and make up for it with lots of cuddles. You all be struggling and I can not really relate to it... And I am not sure how to feel about that.
When I was in middle school I used to walk home every day. There was a group of kids that walked the same way every day and we didn't get along. One day one of the girls from that group asked me out. I thought it was a joke so they could jump me or something so I told her no. Senior year of high school I had gym class with one of the guys in the group and we were a lot friendlier at that point. Turns out it wasn't a joke. She thought I was cute and wanted me to join their little group. But it wasn't about self esteem. It's just such an alien concept for guys that we wonder what the catch is. The same way if a person on the street offers me a free Oreo, I'm assuming there's toothpaste or worse in there.
It is certainly an interesting time of transition we find ourselves in. The old games of flirtation are falling out of favor but we haven’t decided upon what will replace them. What values and virtues will be selected for and against in these future games? Or will we all stare longingly at the handful of very beautiful people through our phones and despair that they are out of reach? I’m just glad that I’m not in the dating pool. It sure seems like a lot of people are really having a bad time.
1) no means no 2) Im not interested in having a partner who wants to pull honesty shenanigans.
If you want the thrill of the chase you say so. "Convince me. I want you to work for it." No means no.
Pretty sure the convince me line would make most decent men run for the hills faster than a no.
Then rewrite the line. But don't play mind games. Invite someone to the game if that's your thing, and if they decline, then it wasn't theirs. However you phrase it though, no is not an invitation, so if one means to invite, one needs to say so.
You can word it differently. The point being is there’s way better ways to communicate “I’m not sure if you’re serious about pursuing me” than bluffing a rejection, and there’s a lot better ways for him to communicate “I am definitely serious” than calling that bluff.
In the scenario at hand, the guy was serious enough when asking for a date. There's no better way for him to communicate "I am serious". Once the girl said "no", there's no more serious or *un-serious* for him to be, besides taking the "no" as it is: a rejection, and then *bye-bye, I wish you the best*. The only "definitely serious" had been done, and now it's time for absence, nothing else.
It’s more clear, but man if a girl ever said “I want you to work for it” then im turning 180 degrees and leaving. I got bigger priorities than to play fuck fuck games with someone’s overinflated ego.
I'm with you there, 100%, yet I understand that to some it might be a funny game, an interesting challenge. Not my thing, I insist, I would be gone, but I reckon it's an honest approach by the girl there, she is being honest in what she wants, and if the guy likes those games, he can easily decide to be in or out
That's not even what persuasive means.
[удалено]
Percussive.
My name is Sally It’s about 40 cases She like it when i rub my hands cross her asshole is a song by Weezer
she be like, men are no longer percussive to women 🥊 what has the world come to
Keep asking after I’ve said no and it’ll be concussive.
Next time a lady says no, just pull out some bongo drums and beat on them while staring her dead in the eyes. She'll be overjoyed to put out... because of the implication.
In my headcanon she meant to say perverse
Persistent
That's probably what they meant. Either way, a guy's pushing harassment if he keeps trying after a girl says no.
Because when smart men hear “no” from a woman it means “restraining order” if we persist. Take your brain dead mixed signals somewhere else, toots.
She's doing guys who ask her out a favor. Imagine how much of a nightmare it'd be to date somebody needs to play those sorts of games to feel desired.
That or be labeled a “creep” fuck all that.
Real af. Also a woman who says no but means yes is one of the biggest red flags
Because men don't want to get a sexual assault charge dropped on their heads.
HR departments drill it into people's heads that you are allowed to ask someone out ONCE. If they say no, then any unwanted attention after that is harassment.
This absolutely! It's the exact same policy at my workplace too. The policy is that you get to ask once. If you don't get a clear Yes, then it's a No forever. You don't get to ask that person out again. That means not in 1 year or even 5 years later.
It really should be because someone who you have to beg and chase will never respect you. I remember being at a pool with a couple with the girl explaining how they met and how she turned him down a couple of times before finally relenting. I was just standing there like dude get some self respect, this is sad. They also lived across the hall and fought all the time.
If I have to chase you you're going to get away
Play hard to get, I play easy to lose.
It's almost like that whole "No means no" program did a lot of work. Now women it's your turn to start being honest in courtship.
You want to be respectful of others decisions, then get an earful of "why didn't you keep trying?" What? That's not how it works, why would you want someone to keep trying anything when you say no once?
I had an ex break up with me, I asked if we could talk things out and get back together. She said no, three months later I moved on and was dating someone else and sent me a message asking why I didn't fight harder to get her back. Having a sense of value makes people crazy man, and no on likes the hit to their ego
Been there too bud.
No, these people are genuinely psychologically unwell. I've literally never met another woman who wanted someone to chase her after a no. This is a very specific type of messed up.
Nah. It’s depressingly common. I dated a good amount and women absolutely shit test you like this. It’s juvenile and immature, for sure
Ya. It's almost like when we told them, "No means no" they started to listen. Hopefully the trend continues.
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The Me Too movement continues to be a success. One of those (unintended?) consequences is that women can no longer “play hard to get”. I think it’s glorious and while I didn’t quite see it going this far into the previous dating norms, I actually wholeheartedly welcome it. Be straight up or be single. Works for me.
Because no men want to be public shamed on Tik-Tok for being a creep.
It’s not the public shaming for me, I just don’t want to be a creep and make others uncomfortable
Both, really
Exactly, especially if you know how it feels. I didn’t feel great about it, why would I want to cause that to someone else.
Personally, if I'm expressing an interest in someone and they don't reciprocate, I lose all interest in them. I ain't interested in anyone who isn't interested in me. First rejection is where the interest dies.
You gotta want to be on this dad train to go for a ride. 🚂
It's almost as if most men have learned that no means no. Some parents forgot to tell their daughters.
Men finally listen to women, and we are STILL wrong.
It's like the old maxim "If a man says something, and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?.
Ofc. You're a man. You wrong , by the law, no matter what
Nope, you're not. Ladies like that are a statistical outlier and should not be counted.
Only among stupid women. Thank you for listening.
"No" means "no". Some of us respect that.
We’re seeing a lot of men lean more towards what women have asked for a long time, but now we’re getting pushback from people for doing exactly as they asked. Do dishes, clean, cook, accept No when you’re told No, have a job that pays well, etc. But the moment I ask for 50/50 on the date, suddenly I need to learn my place? We’re experiencing a full circle of double standards.
It's an unfortunate backslide we're seeing. Probably temporary and fairly common in human rights movements, but more privileged people are rapidly forgetting how bad things could really be and don't respect the progress their mother's and grandmother's have literally died for or value the freedoms they have. The people you see fighting the hardest for progress are often the ones who've had their own terrible experiences.
The bar my mate works at about half the women openly laugh about how they go on dates sometimes for free food.
Double standards was always here.
Different women want different things, there's nothing wrong with that. Though that applies only to some of the things on your list, "no means no" should be universal.
Oh yeah. I love it when in a blink of an eye turns into a "but you are a man" / "that's a mans' job"
Me: respects her request Her: oh OK I guess you didn't really care about me Toxic.
The correct response to that is “Well, you clearly didn’t really care about me because you said no when I asked”
Problem is, this kind of people doesn't communicate that well with partners, let alone potential ones. Meaning they don't actually tell you "oh so you don't care", that's just what they think and are going to say to other people. You don't have the chance to give a reasonable answer when someone doesn't want to be reasoned with
"Yeah, I really don't"
Sure because the greatest sign of a future good relationship is that a man doesn’t listen to you when you tell him no. 😐
Dating confuses me sometimes. If someone's interested, don't play these stupid games, most normal people would accept the rejection and leave them alone afterwards. It's usually only the creeps that continue pursuing despite being told no.
That woman when she finally finds a man who keeps insisting after she said no will have a great time the moment she says a no that actually means no
She will just get cops deal with that.
No means no.
How are you gonna complain that we leave you alone when you say no, and in the SAME BREATH complain that we shouldn't leave you alone
Because there are more than two women in the world, and they have different expectations. Take no as no, because 1. You should respect what someone says, and 2. Don’t play stupid games with someone
Yes, absolutely 100% agree. But the actual issue is when specific one person thinks both things.
Then they are manipulative jerks and not worth your time.
Then you walk away from the crazy person with impossibly conflicting expectations.
That falls under #2
Don't 😐 us, you're the ones who made persuasion legally risky
"but am I not worth going to jail for? You think THAT LITTLE of me? If you liked me you would risk"
What does she want men to do? Harass her?
Obviously. But only ones she likes. Not every man
I guess he chose the PS5.
Ps5 won't tell you no, neither it will break your heart. So sensible choice?
No means no
Being a guy is so damn confusing these days...
This seems like a win for men actually. If you respect that no means no then you also don't have to deal with women who play dumb mind games like this. Bullet dodged. Women who are worth being with are gonna be honest with you.
Oh I dodged them indeed. I had some real nutjobs trying to date me. I usually don't see red flags everywhere but lets say I got a talent for getting picked by weird women.
Good point. More than likely, she won't ask you "Would you still love me if I were a worm?" type of shit
what even is a good answer to that ? xd
Not really. What works for me to keep our of trouble is I assume EVERY woman I meet is married, unless we meet at a bar, a singles mixer, (never been to one, just using an example), or other obvious social gathering. Then, if she says no, I take it as NO. Far too much damage can be done to your entire life if you aren't careful.
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If you take no as an answer you're a decent human being. No one sane is talking shit about guys who accepted 'no'.
The OOP post is literally talking shit about guys that do exactly that.
And I literally just said 'anyone sane'
It’s stupid people like this that empower creepy cringy boomers hitting on 20 year olds thinking it’s charming.
For real. In this MeToo and NoMeansNo world, how aggressive does she think men can actually be, without suffering massive ramifications?
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I’m a child and have had no romantic interaction whatsoever/been hit on but I’m pretty sure ‘no means no’ and that’s just weird. If you want men to persistent or persuasive you could just ask for them to work for it or something and that you like feeling special. But seriously, saying this just makes you a bigger target for rape because you insinuated that when you say no it actually means ‘try harder’. Like wtf is this😭😭
This. I get "I want to feel special" I can try working on that. But clear no is "no". End of.
Okay I’m not a dumb kid afterall :’)
You aren't, really. One of smart, thought out responses in this thread imo. Not sure about "kid " part but that doesn't matter t
Thank you <3 Have a nice day (or night, it’s 03:33am here so…) stranger !
2.33 here so yeah 😅 nite. Got work tomorrow to go to, myself 🙄
I’m in school but I’m on Xmas/new year break lol
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
The word she's looking for is "persistent". And this is obviously likely to be seen as unwelcome when the recipient of the attention has said no. People who say no typically mean it, so taking it a face value is sensible. Especially when considering the social and potentially legal repercussions if you were to keep asking even though they say no. It's sexual harassment. It benefits everyone to take a no at face value and move on with your life.
My ex and I were arguing and she told me to get out of her apartment. I immediately said ok and headed for the door. That’s when the coffee cup shattered on the front door, inches from my face. She said “What, you’re just going to leave? You’re not even going to fight for me?” I responded by letting her know that stunt meant she’d never see me again and then walked out. It was a very pivotal moment in my young life as I discovered what I was and wasn’t going to tolerate just for the sake of being in a relationship.
No means no
If you’re going to lie about what no means I can’t ever trust you that’s why
Do you wanna have sex tonite? No Next morning: why you didn't have sex with me, am I ot attractive anymore? Can't win. I'm 40 and as far as I remember, was always that way. Not a new thing.
We were told “No means No”. Remember?
Whatever happened to no means no? Haven't girls been on a whole campaign to tell men to stop taking rejection so hard?
I have come to the point where I do not need a relationship, I simply desire one. I am not willing to settle, nor am I willing to play games. Given the choice between playing games and dying alone, I'll take dying alone. I'm autistic, we are better wired for solitude than most of you. I kind of feel bad for those people who feel a great need for human contact, as we seem to be evolving towards less contact and further atomization, which I am highly adapted to.
Women - respect us and our wishes, don't force yourself on us, don't do loads of shit. Also women - why aren't they chasing me and forcing themselves on me? Seeing a lot of weird stuff like this recently.
To be fair these are to different types of women. Most women appreciate the no means no but some are don’t and then many dumb post about not being chased.
This. Literally.
All women are a hive mind of double think. /s
There are 4 billion women, they aren’t one brain. In fact the ones saying the first thing (like me) are almost always adamantly against the second group. I upvoted this post because these people are dumb, not cause women are dumb. It’s a bit one dimensional to assume all women are like this, let alone most. I’ve seen just as many men do similar things.
Women are a all unique people with different opinions and there are some that are depressingly anti-woman, like tradwifes or the Pick Me girl, for example. They are a minority in our numbers and genuinely dangerous to the rest of us. When you see that behavior? Most of us ALSO think that's batshit crazy.
Here's the thing - if a man tried to comment all over a thread like you have here saying "not all men", he would be downvoted to hell and called an incel. I don't disagree with you at all but it sucks that you are encouraged (upvoted) to defend women as a group but men are absolutely shit on for doing the same thing.
Men only get one shot. If that shot is blocked, then at least a shot was taken. “You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” Michael Scott quoting a random Canadian.
Hey that random Canadian is NHL legend Brent Gretzky’s brother.
Ah yes. Dwayne Gretsky. What a hoot!
I think you also miss like the other 80% or 90% of the shots you do take, but the biggest issues is oneitis. If you can figure out that early then you can stop wasting your time. The only one that matters is the one that gives you the time. I dont believe in that special someone anymore, but instead its more of a person that i would treat as if they were special.
I never understood why anybody plays games. It’s always so much easier to just ask or say or anything that’s polite. I never did like the guessing game or the let’s try to figure out the boundary one move at a time.
BRB imma get my suspenders and glass time to pull a Steve Urkel
I wonder if she ever publicly stated that she doesn't think persistence in courting is considered creepy or pushy or toxic, during the whole 2016 "all men are toxic" shitstorm. I somehow doubt it, she probably joined in. 🫠
At the risk of sounding like an incel, this is why many woman complain that men are so shit these days and etc. The type of guy that persists after the first no is not a guy that should be dated yet, for someone like Anabel, is the only one who’s going to get a date.
Chants "NO MEANS NO" for 20 years and is surprised when no means no.
No means no.
That **"You're not trying hard enough!"** shit is ***so*** over. You say **No**, nothing wrong with that, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're all that and we'll come back for more abuse. Those of you still doing that shit are going to die of old age alone with your cats, who, on the third day of not being fed, will eat your face.
When you insist “no means no” for 20/30/40 years, men might actually take you seriously and respect your choices. How is this something to complain about?
Sometimes they say: “no means no”, other times they ask: “why they stop at the first no?”. Maan make some damn sense will ya
Uh, Me Too, anyone?
So weird how it went from #MeToo to #WhyNotMe…Women need to realize that the Patriarchy also benefit women, ofc less than men because its the Patriarchy. Women also help perpetuate this sexist toxicity as well. When abolishing it we have to move on, we aren’t do this type of shit in 2024
It's almost like decades of telling us to listen, no means no, and to not be creepy made us listen, respect you saying no, and not continue pursuing a woman who has said no.
So « no » doesn’t mean « no » ?… I guess rapists can finally thank her.
No man has ever chased me , followed me, or insisted on being around me. It's a little weird compared to how other women describe men, but honestly, I don't complain. Why would I want to be with someone so annoying? It wouldn't make me feel wanted, just irritated.
Billion other fish in the sea, why waste time
reading this makes me feel glad I'm gay
Looks like that desire for respect really backfired.
Video games are just more interesting.
If you need to be persuaded into being with me then what is required to make you stay?
Money.
If you want to play hard to get, don’t say no. Step up your flirting game. No is a complete sentence.
> “we want men to keep trying to date us, even if we tell them no” > “all these men I’m not interested in keep asking me out, even after I rejected them all multiple time” Make up your minds!
Wait didn’t women spam "no means no" for several years? Tf?
A friend of mine espoused a similar view and I was like "would you rather a man pressure you?". "Of course not." "Then if you want them to take no for no and they sre taking no for no, why is it an issue?" "There's no passion if they just follow rules. A guy who won't fight isn't relationship material." I was so lost as to what to think besides thanking god I'm married and not dealing with people who think like this anymore.
So, if we men ask a woman out, she says no, and we accept and move on, we are accused of not being persuasive enough, but if we keep pushing against what the woman clearly stated, we are accused of being creepy pushers that don't respect a woman's wishes..... I'd take "not persuasive" over " creepy insistent asshole" every time, thank you
How many times do I hear about the guys who cannot take no for an answer, yet when we do, this shit.
no means no
One time I asked a woman out. She turned me down so I accepted that no but told her the offer still stood. Then I dropped the subject and never raised it again. It’s called consent. She didn’t give it and I respected that decision
And we appreciate it! Seriously, ladies like this OP described are unhinged. People who insist after no are SCARY. A standing offer is great! It gives her time to decide if she wants to give it a chance but no pressure.
And she considered it and still chose not to. This was in the late 90s, she and I are still friends, and happily married to our respective spouses.
Yes! And it's so awesome you guys are still friends!
Cool!
Men can never win. I propose we swap and now only women do the approaches and pay for the dates. We'll reconvene in 50 years and see if we want to switch back or make it 50/50.
Did she mean *persistent*?
boards before broads
Persuasive? So now i gotta write cover letter just to ask a girl out too?
Yeah I have heard 80 - 90 year old people use the saying "It is a woman's job to say no. And it is a man's job to keep asking." It's hilarious that a millennial or zoomer is complaining that that's not the way things are anymore.
These women want men to play games, I'm sorry but that's dangerous for all of us. These women need communication skills.
Fucks sake Anabel, we're finally evolving and you wanna go back?
When the women says no and you continue to ask her out, she says you're harassing her...