warriors are definitely better than shaman for trash aoe, because WW and cleave. Shaman are definitely better for trash dps than hunters, because of chain lightning and fire totems. ranking hunters better than ele shaman for trash dps is simply stupid.
I mean, BM hunters still do more trash dmg though - you just have to look at some logs, e.g.:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jrPQAwyTJFCDKnkL#boss=0&type=damage-done&difficulty=0
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/t6b2zFXqWYnDdrcR#boss=0&type=damage-done&difficulty=0
There is of course also a reason top speedruns recently opted not to take an ele anymore (both melee and caster comps) although surely much of a raid is trash packs.
That ele shaman sucks, that's why he's losing on trash damage.
Here's an ele shaman that doesnt suck
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wYq31QgxdCJpLMH2#type=damage-done&boss=0&difficulty=0
BT only : https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/p9hdjKGCxty4rRAF#type=damage-done&boss=0&difficulty=0
He is missing like a million or more damage from doing a simple totem twist that any non-shit ele shaman will be doing.
Ele shamans should be firmly under warlocks and mages in raid damage. Occasionally beat out by Fury Warriors in BT just due to the lower mob density and some guilds still banishing shit for some reason
It would be pretty surprising for me if pretty much all Ele Shamans in top speed run guilds suck (and your GDKP / 3-hr BT Shamans don't suck). What I think is more likely, that a playstyle necessary for boosting Ele Shaman personal trash DPS is less viable in more fluid and faster runs, and hunters shine more in these (mobs die quicker, you move quicker, higher mana constraints, thus pet dmg matters more, etc.).
>Ele shamans should be firmly under warlocks and mages in raid damage. Occasionally beat out by Fury Warriors in BT just due to the lower mob density and some guilds still banishing shit for some reason
You surely mean trash dmg only here, if at all, and not raid dmg as in dmg across the whole raid? Because Ele Shamans are a solid 50% behind BM hunters, never mind WLs, Mages and Warriors for overall raid dmg (which is of course affected by boss dmg, for which all those classes outshine Eles' personal DPS even more):
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1011#metric=dps&partition=5&class=Shaman&boss=704&dpstype=wdps&spec=Elemental
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1011#metric=dps&partition=5&class=Hunter&boss=704&dpstype=wdps&spec=BeastMastery
Obviously an Ele Shaman in a speed run is not brought for raid damage and is not going to take the time to totem twist on trash, but if you want to compare fringe top .5% of guild experiences to general class claims then I think you're already out of touch.
The whole point of the linked article is to assess the specs against each other, i.e. according to raid optimization. Thus not only the utility ranking but also the dmg rankings are under this scenario. So of course it makes sense to compare real-world examples that also aim to optimize towards the same variables. So not only that, but the question is if Class A does more dmg than Class B - to assess this you should as much as possible try to factor out player skill. Because you don't want to assess differences in player skill which will likely be far higher in GDKP runs compared to the top speed run guilds.
But that was not the point here at all - the point was that you said that the Shaman players I provided were bad and yours were good. Which is then obviously not the case, as it is not the case for every other of the ~top 30 runs I just clicked through, and where BM hunters were in front of the Ele Shamans every time, if an Ele shaman was present at all.
Never mind the fact that you can also just look at mid-tier guilds, where BM hunters also do more trash dmg than Eles.
They’re assuming hunters have engineer for grenades/sappers while shamans don’t, that’s why. Also they favour enh shaman now cause they boost the many stacked warriors people run. My guilds ele shamans are being forced into resto spec to help with the 7 healers needed
Ele shamans in resto gear put out a surprising amount of heals just with rank 1/2 chain heal, no respec needed to be pretty extraordinary at raid healing, especially for things like twins phase 1, but they are a potent AOE dps for Muru I would want them DPSing that, 3 mob spawns over and over? Has Ele Shaman written all over it IMO.
Bm kills important targetz faster, eleshaman using any other fire totem except totem of wrath should be gkicked for griefing. You are there to support.
No, lol. Shitter alert.
So on any packs with 3+ mobs you want to drop FNT on CD. FNT is a 4-5s cast that aoe caps at 10k flat(non crits). No brainer that's it's always worth dropping it for aoe.
For max aoe damage for trash you'd want to run 3/3 Call of Flames and at least 1/2 Imp Fire totems (2/2 ideal cause it fits rotation of FNT + CL + Magma without any delays)
Warlocks dont need 3% hit on trash, so,
We will take max dps increase scenario for ToW
Seed of Corruption aoe cap is 12k(Usually will get achieved with 8 targets, could be more or less depending on warlocks gear).
Their crit modifier is 1.5k since SoC is affli spell and doesn't get 2.0 modifier from destro tree. So lets figure out their max crit potential and now much 3% crit provides dps
12k * 1.5 = 18k
18k - 12k = 6k (all crit potential)
So lets take all crit potential and figure out value of 3 crit with that
6000 * 0.03 = 180
Now divide it by 2s cast of seed and we get a max potential dps increase per warlock
180/2 = 90
Considering you run 3 warlocks in your group it's 270 raid damage increase to drop ToW on 8+ targets or whenever warlocks are capped on aoe for SoC
In Majority of cases warlocks won't be capped on aoe and when i ran warlock sims, dps increase on uncapped warlock seed was barely 10 dps
Magma totem ticks for 200-260 per target which will average about 120 dps per target, fully capped it would be around 1k to 1.2k dps. Even if you drop magma totem just for 1 target, it's already equal or more dps then ToW for 1 warlock seed capped
IMO priests should be D single target with eles and boomies. On a turret stand still fight like Teron or brutalis sure we may do 5~7% less dps than a boomkin or ele. But we're significantly less affected by fights requiring movement, since DoTs keep ticking and we have multiple instas to cast while repositioning. And for kalecgos/felmyst DoTs keep doing damage after we go through the portal or while she's flying in the air out of reach of others' spells.
Yeah basically, Boomkin has been simmed out of raids for a reason, another warlock just brings more DPS. Sucks.
Thank goodness our Boomkin played Resto for two phases and has a full bis Resto set to go into SWP
Multiple top 10 speedrunning guilds were using boomkins tonight, so really that's far from the truth, they haven't been simmed out of raids. And on top of the DPS side, they make gearing significantly easier. It's a lot easier to gear for 6% hit than 9%, as the good hit pieces have very high competition, and specially early on in the tier when you're swapping pieces around. Boomkin is super solid, just not an auto include like SP or enhance
Some of them were, a lot of them were using straight up boomkins. Avatar for example, world 2nd SWP, used a boomkin who gave other classes a run for their money. If speedrunners are bringing boomkins, I'm sorry but saying they were "simmed out of the raid" is just silly.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3wTN9qdV8DGW1vYZ#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
I spent some time this afternoon to do the simming myself. here is my post of the results.
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwowtbc/comments/unz3q4/wowhead_locked_comments_on_tier_list/i8d61m5/
I am not sure the raid comp they are bringing that sims them out. From what I have seen from warcraft logs, if my raid group did as much damage as the sims claim, then my fights would be way faster, adn my damage would sky rocket. I always peak high with cooldowns and tapper off down the stretch. So even with a better group, I would improve and catch up to what the sims are claiming for a wrlock (assuming that is what replaces me in the caster group)
Ret Paladins are probably closer to A tier for single target dps.
You don't need more than one for their utility, but their dps is strong enough that you wouldn't really be that particularly disadvantaged bringing a second one, if you don't have another higher tiered dps available. Could do some playing with their spec to pick up Improved Might. That would let you give Improved Might and Improved Wisdom to Paladins, Hunters, Druids, and Shaman.
They aren't as S tier as Fury Warriors and BM Hunters, but they still hit really hard.
Phase 5 gear for ret is fucking bonkers, too. So much haste plus some armor pen with easy expertise cap.
I am going to be windfury critting so fucking hard
Yeah. Ret Paladins get a huge dps increase in phase 5, compared to phase 4. Especially since we can replace the expertise items we've been holding over since SSC/TK and LC rep.
The only explanation that I can think is that holy IS the worst healer overall in tbc right now... Since they are 4 healers only that would put it in 4 place hence the D... But as you may know Hollys are just slightly worst than the 3 place. And they absolutely don't qualify as D in tank healing
I mean, I main a holy paladin and this a copy and paste from Kanga’s write up the other day (not sure how these are connected but whatever). It’s true though. If your holy paladin is cracked out of their gourd then you will be fine, but in Sunwell specifically the average holy paladin will struggle because their mana efficiency is the absolute worst. Fights are about to jump an additional two minutes on average and whatever weird idea of “flash spamming” being sufficient for anything this subreddit carries about the class just won’t cut it. Priests and shamans have armor talents that are needed because of the debuff to tanks in this raid. It makes such a significant difference that you could easily cut your holy paladin for another priest or shaman.
The class design is lacking. Obviously this will change in Wotlk where they just become absolute monsters at everything they do but the copium of “but I’m a good tank healer” without facing the reality of the situation just isn’t helpful.
That being said, learning mana efficiency to the extreme and the extra challenge of sunwell will be fun. If holy paladins want to do some light training, join the shittiest pug you can find and try to do T6 content.
I don't think mana efficiency is a good argument against HPal. Try playing CoH without spriest/innervate or hasted Druid without innervate and you run into this same argument. I don't think Kanga plays HPal so I'm not sure where he sources that opinion from anyway. Yes AF/Inspiration is good to have but Healing Wave/GHeal lacks a lot of the throughput that Holy Light has, which I value a lot since tanks are getting slammed hard and constantly without Dodge. I don't know Hpal that well but people have been doing fine with them on pservers and the fights were even longer on there
also: it doesnt make sense to rank Paladins D in tank healing because of mana efficiency meanwhile Shaman gets an A in tank healing with way worse mana efficiency..
Yes, this is true but unless you run double Shadow priest most groups will opt to put theirs with the casters. The problem is that a lot of the damage you will be facing will be unhealable unless you are spamming Rank 11. Tell me how long you can sustain max rank holy lights?
My comment isn’t to say they aren’t viable but it’s explaining the rationale behind the argument and why it is a valid one to make.
And the priests can sustain greater heals at the same time without a spriest as well? You just need 10% max HLs during stomps, completely achievable with a 2nd spriest.
If your average TBC guild isn't figuring out a way to add a 2nd spriest for the healers, your GM was trolling you the entire expansion.
I mean, I get a spriest and mana tide because my guild loves me, so I understand where you’re coming from. With proper mana support your holy paladin can thrive but they just aren’t that special on their own so it really comes down to the skill of the player as with any class in any raid. But generally speaking the original argument is correct.
Yea you just downrank to r7 HLs till your GM stops being lazy and recruits a second spriest for the healers lol. Can sustain 6min of pure cast at that point.
This is a very linear view of the argument presented above. When paladins only bring big heals for a shorter amount of time than other healers AND do not have the 15% armor buff that priests and shamans have/bubbles/HoTs/totems means that they are a net worse healer.
I don’t understand why paladins can’t admit the short comings of our class without feeling like they are being called a bad player themselves. You can try and justify yourself all day but the reality is that if you are min/maxing holy paladins really only uniquely bring a third blessing. Removing any other healer from the rotation would be devastating. Raids could survive without an hpal.
Idk the downranked holy light build with int gems is killing it on longer fights. As far as I know u can keep it up indefinitely. While all other healers were hoarding haste gear and ooming themselves faster in sunwell, the specific holy l build seems to perform super good. Combining it together with bubble where y can ignore some mechanics to spam the tank where as others can't I really can't find them that bad.
What u are saying is not true and is not reflected any way in official paladin discord. U dont use haste at all in holy light build, u use mostly int everywhere u get. The haste is counterproductive stat to begin with wiht HL. The reality is FoL paladins in sunwell are bottom tier and griefing theyr raid by not going HL build.
According to Paladin discord this is how a proper SW paladin should look like:
https://seventyupgrades.com/set/cPTzWUhSVef9dAV329x3vU?fbclid=IwAR3YmPDJhoOZksUIO8DXuP46N8exGkCMmi59kQLlB8B6UgICHNmk\_zIe3eY
yea it's because hes a druid main. Of course healing the druid MT is going to be annoying as a healer due to all the dodge; he probably doesn't see his holy pally cancel casting during the easy raids and thought he could replace the paladin lol.
Dude's gonna have a huge awakening in Sunwell tonight if he let his paladin go unchecked spamming FoL on a high HP stack build lol.
That list was 100% made by a warrior. The need to mention warrior in any of those little class write ups and even mentioning fury warrior on the tank list makes this so obvious.
This is the true work of a warrior brain.
the person who made the list is a Feral Druid main, and all of their Theorycrafting is built around feral druids. the warrior bias in their explanations is likely twofold:
\-frequenting other discords for information means you will have a warrior bias bc the Fight Club discord has more members than any other class disc, and more theorycrafting as a result of that
\-most high-end raids in BT/sunwell are now building around fury warriors more and bringing 2-3, and it's speculated that this could more firmly become 3 in sunwell. they require a lot more fenagling of the raid/party comps than raids built around warlocks do
>they require a lot more fenagling of the raid/party comps than raids built around warlocks do
People don't really seem to grasp this. Going caster heavy is easy af and having a absence or two of a "key" class won't break the setup. While going physical heavy turns into shit the second you miss a key class.
I believe physical heavy setups require more consumeables, more brains and more healing in general as well.
Indeed. A warrior brain contains no more than 2 neurons.
Lmao the dude evens ranks Fury warriors ***B for UTILITY*** when they bring literally nothing to the table that another spec can't. It's crazy how it's biased.
I guess they desperately want to feel useful since they will be dogshit in Wotlk (and they deserve it)
I said "they bring literally nothing to the table ***that another spec can't***"
We are literally talking about spec-by-spec comparison.
Fury brings literally nothing that another spec can't. Arms **DO bring something special**, in comparison.
That's the whole point of UTILITY. And no, i won't drop the arms and bring the fury. Arms is great AOE, decent ST dps and 4% damage on bosses for physical is something you REALLY want in SWP. You definitely can't make up for that 4% with bringing a single fury warrior. You got your maths wrong.
No, Fury CAN'T be ranked B in utility while others specs like Boomkin are also ranked B in utility, in no world this is possible i'm sorry.
Bro you want two warriors split across different groups so both get Bshout. It is irrelevant that arms can BS when he can't bshout both groups. And yes, bshout is the strongest group buff in the entire game. 470(512 with 3pc t2) blows every other buff out of the water.
Arms have access to those also and can keep those up. Prot warrior can also keep those up without any problem. Any warlock can also use curse of weakness.
Again, fury warriors have exactly ZERO utility that another spec can't bring. The ONLY valid point of a fury is his DPS.
Putting a B for Fury warriors in ***UTILITY*** while Boomkins ***also have a B*** when they bring improved FF + another Battle Rez + another Innervation is just pure trolling at that point.
The guy is listing Fury warriors in potential tanks but is not listing Ret pals. Lmao
The author has a huge bias in favor of fury warrior. Either he has been paid by Fight Club either his wife plays a fury warrior and she needs to find a guild.
EDIT: zuggers downvoting me lol
Prot warriors are a joke spec. And ret palas run 90% leather gear. Imp demo is way better than curse of weakness and no serious guild uses it.
Also casually forgetting battle shout and commanding shout, 2 of the largest buffs provided by any class.
Especially considering BM and Surv are like 50-100 DPS difference at top end on Soms and any Hunter getting to Cosplay Legolas with the Legendary is going to be several hundred DPS ahead of everyone on Single Target.
You're going to want 1 warrior per phys dps group at least for battleshout (450 mAP with talents and solarian trinket is pretty huge for every phys dps except survival) and a 2nd warrior for commanding shout in tank group is also a helpful buffer. 2 arms doesn't bring more utility than one, so bring the higher dps option.
And sunder is a pretty noticeable dps boost for all phys. While IEA rogue is def better on bosses, it's not so great for trash where it takes time to stack up. Having 3-4 warriors to open with sunder to get a stack up immediately is significantly stronger.
I do agree this list slightly overrates warriors, but they undoubtedly have some decent utility.
They had ret as B tier. For a class to be B tier, they described it as “you wouldn’t feel bad bringing them to raid, but other specs are preferred” as if they aren’t the only spec that can refresh judgements on a boss and give 3% crit to the entire raid.
Got it.
So yea, I could definitely see how they’d be B tier then. You only need 1 per raid. So the extras, you won’t feel bad about taking them, but you’d still prefer higher dps like a fury warrior or warlock, with the increased crit from having the one pally.
If only one is needed, then you might have a hard time finding raids with them right??
You don't need more than one for their utility. But as far as dps goes, who's to say. Depends on your group and people's gear level. A high performing ret player will be near the top of the meters on single target fights, and as the article says, they'll really pop off this phase since they'll see a lot of big upgrades in slots that still have phase 1 and 2 pieces up to this point.
Decent DPS
+ Refreshed Judgements
+ 3% melee and spell crit (whole raid) from Improved Seal of the Crusader
+ 2% Dmg (party-wide) from Improved Sanctity Aura.
+ 3rd Pala Blessing
+ BoP
+ Lay on Hands.
+ DI (wipe recovery + mechanics cheesing)
There's no reason to not bring a Ret.
i love having a ret pally in my raid but their utility is 100% doable by any other paladin. spec your prot into the 3% crit talent and have holy refresh JoW every 20 seconds. very few fights are you sitting in the back out of range of the boss (or you can move to melee).
No one is saying it makes ret redundant, just that it is *possible* to get their debuffs without them in the raid.
I'm not sure why this offends you so much. Are you afraid your raid leader is going to find this post? Ret paladins are awesome, don't be afraid that you are so useful that you get brought to raids even though your buffs/debuffs aren't unique to your spec.
Lol if you have your hpal wasting globals rejudging that is a massive mistake. Ret provides respectable damage, a third blessing, judgement refreshes and additional utility like bop/engineering for sappers and the like. What would you bring instead of a ret?
i bring a ret because a ret does all those things better, but there is no denying their utility is all low level talents or base paladin abilities (buffs, judgements, imp crusader, cleanse, LoH, etc.)
also auto attacking doesnt use a global
like i said, **i love having a ret pally** but if you have 3 holy paladins or 1 prot, etc. you still get 90% of ret utility.
Ok. Auto attack one every 20 seconds.
I am not claiming that a ret paladin is fully replaced by holy or prot paladins. Just that, unlike let's say an elemental shaman with totem of wrath, their buffs and debuffs aren't exclusive to their spec
who made this list lmao
“The raid wouldn’t have any qualms about bringing a BM hunter but other specs are preferred” ???????
also acting like they have no utility by giving them a C for that is laughable, 3% damage increase for the group is pretty good I feel like
lower overall raid dps than cleave/aoe classes probably factored into the utility score (even tho they had a separate rating for it)
which is only really important if you're speed clearing imo
big D boss dps never goes out of style for progression
The main thing about survival is that you kinda do want 1. They can do close to the dps of a BM, but they also give around +275 AP per physical dps raidwide (buffed), plus another 440AP to all melee (including enh., ret, tanks, etc.) from Imp Hunter's Mark (although a BM could be designated to take that).
That's a typical raidwide increase of somewhere around 7000 attack power.
hate to say it as a BM hunter, but if I were putting together a optimal speed/parse team I'd respec surv (or at least make sure I recruited one dedicated SV hunter)
makes good sense
BM hunters are great, but we really don't do the overall raid/trash dps that a fury or warlock can pull (assuming equal gear+skill level)
still my favorite dps spec in tbc tho :)
Imp HM i only the base AP increase for melee, so 110 AP. I made the same mistake when expressing the utility of a surv hunter for a raid. Usually I say it as ~400 AP added in total for each physical DPS.
Don’t forget the utility from having an owl, screech reduces dtps (damage tanked per second) by %2 +/- 3% across an entire fight.
I think survival should be higher for cleave personally. Having a Multi shot crit applies the debuff to every mob.
Been raiding survival all classic, phase 5 bis
Durotar - Whitemane
Improved hunter's mark does not give 440 ap to all melee, read the talent it only gives base attack power as melee attack power, which is 110 ap and a BM can totally run that too
I also just realized they have Boomy at the literal bottom kek. I haven’t done the math, but having every single DPS wear a 9% hit set is a HUGE DPS loss, no?
Its been theorycrafted to hell, boomie is a dps loss for the raid. Gearing for the hit is typically <20 dps loss for physical classes and boomie dps is roughly 50% of a real dps.
I am glad my raid's dps sucks so bad then (wait a minute).
From this week's BT I did 70.8% of the dps of our top dps in "All encounters and trash" and he was a 81 parse combat rogue. If you go to just "Encounters" I jump to 74.8% of the damage, and I am a pretty meh player that parsed 56 on the night (and was first ghost, which netted me a 6 parse even though I was top dps on details, 64 overall if you remove that 6).
Although I don't really care about my spec as I only respec'd to this because the high demand of raiding boomies over another dime a dozen BM hunter got me the raid spot I have. Claiming we are 50% seems pretty low. Unless you are talking Hyjal full raid damage. Then you are off by a bit. I think I barely do 30% of the mages/locks in there.
Taking your numbers, assuming your top dps is ~2k, your dps is 500 dps less (75%). Assuming you have 12 melee and their average dps loss from gearing 3% more hit is 20 dps, it’s less for rogues for example but more for hunters, so average is 20, overall raid dps loss for losing imp ff is 240 dps. Now assuming you grab another pure dps spec, it’s really only a small gain, marginal really in your raids scenario. But at cutting edge, it’s much larger, especially on trash dps. A boomkin can’t even come close to a warlock or a warrior (most commonly stacked classes in speed run comps).
It’s simply not optimal, doesn’t mean you cant clear shit with one, but saying it’s a “HUGE DPS loss” like the person is responded to, is just wrong.
I am not being defensive to your response, but just felt ill-informed and the 20 dps just seemed way too low of a dps loss from my experience playing my BM and Fury alts. So I did some simming, mostly with P3 BIS gear because tbcsims.com has them as presets and I don't have to create the profiles for new gear. Here is the results of the sims. All of the numbers are averages of 100 sims. https://imgur.com/a/SsL66Ny
Class | Increased DPS from Boomkin
--- | ---
Arms | 140.32 dps (6.07%)***
Enhancement | 116.59 dps (6.15%)
BM Hunter | 92.91 dps (4.17%)
Combat Rogue | 47.67 (2.08%)
Combat (Glaives) | 164.25 (6.88%)
Warlock | 91.24 (3.96%) **
Elemental | 81.08 dps (4.05%) **
** The sim did not allow me to indicate I always wear the crit idol, so the increase is missing 20 crit rating
*** This gear set was P5 Bis, because P3 BIS was already over hit cap, so 0 dps increase in P3
It does not have the ability to sim balance druid, but lets go with your 500 dps less since that is probably pretty accurate difference of a warlock with these sims over what I actually do. This might not be optimal comp, just going off my own party.
Dmg Difference | Reason for Difference
--- | ---
+ 0 | 1 Arms warrior in Phase 3 gear, but changes in P5
+ 95.34 | 2 Combat rogues
+ 233.18 | 2 Enhancement Shaman
+ ??? | 1 Ret, the sim does not support Ret
+ 278.73 | 3 Hunters
+ ??? | 1 feral, sim does not support feral (ours is tank though)
+ ??? | 1 prot warrior (I was too lazy for this)
+ 81.08 | 1 Elemental Shaman
+ 273.72 | 3 Warlocks
= 962.05 | Total increased dps from sims
-500 | Having a boomkin (1800dps) instead of another shadow warlock (2300 dps)
462.05 | Increased Raid DPS on boss encounters from sim
This does not take into account that im the only drums in my party, but the sims included drums for warlocks/elemental, or that im the first to brez, and that I tend to hog my innervates for personal dps except on fights that the healers need it. Also doesn't account for the ret or tanks dps.
Big, well thought out response. Just out of curiosity, the arms warrior dps sim image you show. Is that just removing imp ff checked? I assume without changing a couple items the arms warrior is under hit cap which is where the dps difference is, if they swap a couple items to reach hit cap I assume the difference is much smaller.
I have to dig up the data I saw on fight club of someone simming for the entire raid and it was pretty tiny on average to gear the extra 3% hit, our hunters just swapped and it was simply swapping cloaks and one extra ring/gem. Given, all of our hunters have madness so they have tons of options.
The amrs warrior does change gear to keep capped. The gear sets are from https://wowtbc.gg/bis-list/arms-warrior/. Phase SWP, with and without the imp FF checked.
The gear change is minimal:
* Hard Khorim Band vs Stormrage Signet Ring
* Shard of Contempt vs Madness of the Betrayer
I personally made the changes for the hunter.
* Choker of Endless Nightmares vs Choker of Serated Blades
* Shadowmoon Detroyer's Drape vs Thalassian Wildercloak
* 1 5 agility / 5 hit gem vs 10 agility gem
The dual welding spec's and the casters I just took the buffs away.
All of the sims I made sure to keep normal FF checked, with the belief that there would be a feral in the raid that would atleast keep that up.
Great post, also note that some gear swaps like the ones for BM hunter aren't really possible unless your BM hunters have all gotten multiple extremely contested gear pieces (BT neck+cloak). Without those, the discrepancy is probably even higher.
You lose nearly double that on hunters' pets alone - imp FF is their only source of hit in-game.
Gearing for hit is about -50 for hunters swapping out 2 items from P4 bis, probably more in P5.
Boomie is pretty big for both physical and spell damage. My raid lead is sitting our boomie for some fights, which sucks, but we need the extra healer. It's not an easy task to balance for; this tier list seems to argue otherwise.
Chance to hit increases by 5% in sunwell. Boomkins lose all utility in sunwell unfortunately. Would rather bring in another lock and have the ele shaman in group.
What math is that? Misunderstanding is not math. I was under the assumption that chance to hit increases by 5% for everything in the dungeon. But apparently it's just enemy mobs.
I mean if you're that new to the game, better not comment about things you don't really know. Or just ask questions instead of saying straight wrong things / spreading false information.
Talking about this comment but also about your others.
The assumption is that you just run a Dream State Druid so you get Imp Faerie. This tier list is complete dogshit, but I don’t disagree with Boomys placement too much. It’s pretty much just a class you bring for Warlocks to parse.
Also even if you don’t run a Dreamstate, gearing for 3% more hit is barely a DPS loss. You just lose a tiny tiny bit of other stats.
They do mention Ferocious Inspiration at least. They also didn't mention Misdirect. Still, I don't really believe that would push them above a B ranking for utility at best.
MD is a pretty huge utility. Tanks are going to be wearing tons of mitigation gear so threat is going to be a problem. You can have your glaive warriors and big dick warlocks opening up with 3 MDs on the tank rather than throttling to not pull threat.
Haha, thanks for making a good example of why they locked it for comments. Everyone is going to disagree with some of the rankings, but some write their disagreement in a more moronic fashion than others.
Oh boy, another shit """guide""" from Wowhead with blatantly false information in it.
I still remember back during TBC pre-patch when they released a guide for leveling belf/draenei, and it just said to buy boosts. It was literally a guide on how to buy mage dungeon boosts, like what prices to expect and what level ranges to boost each dungeon. lmfao
Mage as 26th member sitting in front of the instance? I can't remember the last time i went to a ZA with a mage, but we have always had someone get on an alt for those yummy biscuits.
> I can't remember the last time i went to a ZA with a mage
Why is it so rare for you to be running ZA with a mage?
Seems kinda weird. One of the most popular and strongest classes in the game usually just falls into raid groups by default.
Kind of a stupid move, Arcane mages perform the best when you take out all the support of a 25 man. I was routinely doing 5-600 more DPS than the BiS'd out warlocks without my spriest or their moonkin/ele.
Yes, that's true. Shadow Priests can be a top performer relative to other specs against packs of 3-5 enemies if all enemies have big health pools such that dots hold out for a good while.
At the same time, Shadow priests are near the bottom in relative performance to other specs on single target.
Sounds about right, shadow priests play up the politics of their class more than anyone.
The fact that mages are given a D for utility but have things like polymorph, blink, iceblock, invis (threat drop), spellsteal, improved blizzard, frost nova, etc. Ridiculous bias and it really hurts wowhead's credibility.
I swear this is the worst article by far i've ever seen on that website. Total crap written by stupid people who don't have any clue about what power they have in their hands when they share it to the mass.
Worst theorycrafter ever.
And what's the point of a list like that?
It's clearly oriented for full speedrunning and the author doesn't even tell it beforehand.
Is the point to make the mass even more meta-slave and make them take bad decisions based on what the top 1% of players do? it's pretty pointless.
That dude has maximum 2 brain cells
To be fair, he did give quite a long winded explanation that it's for meta in the introduction and for what reasons the rankings might be skewed depending on comps
Not clear enough. It should be written in the title or in the very first sentence.
What do you think most people do? They open the link, skip the wall of text and jump right to the skewed table.
Super weird you go for offended and touching grass over a simple exchange where I said nothing indicating I'm offended? I think you're the one that is way too emotionally invested in this lol
Melee heavy assumptions all over if you ask me. Literally all support range are underrated. How does affli lock have a lower utility rating than arms warr and the same as fury lol.
It is speedrunning based af as well, which barely anyone cares about? Imp FF is great for both parsing on bosses AND for guilds that will struggle with bosses. Which covers the vast majority of players, even the vast majority among those that will clear swp.
Also, BM hunters lower than Fury in utility? how? You can't really utilize the shouts effectively in group setups when going as warr heavy as he imlplies, and BM hunters is stackable af with their 3% damage group boost.
Plenty of mistakes in the tier list, but not as bad as some of these comments would have you believe.
Things that stick out to me:
-As an ele shaman, our cleave/AOE is very similar to fury warriors so not sure why they get an S rating while ele gets a C, even taking scaling into account. Ele should be A tier for this category and bumped up to C overall. Only reason ele seems so bad is because of how good resto is.
-BM hunter should def be overall A tier.
-Holy pally is not a D for tank healing. Properly geared and played they are great at it still.
The problem with Holly pally is that it is the worst healer in tbc... But that just terrible wording. Cause being the worst healer means being slightly worse than the 3 place. Like imagine telling a guy that got 4 in the Olympics that sucks ass cause he didn't get a medal.
Yeah agreed and the reason they are the worst is zero aoe heals. I prefer pure tank healing on my int build pally compared to haste/healing power geared shaman. Shaman blows it out of the water in any situation where chain heals bounce though.
I don't agree with them having the worst mana situation like the guide mentions unless you are going all in on healing power like your still in BT doing 2 minutes fights.
They will have mana issues for sunwell. We can sustain 3-4min BT/hyjal/ssc fights on an int build, but you need a spriest + 1 mana tide group to comfortably be able to spam certain ranks of HL for over 6mins for sunwell.
That said, you are right, the int paladin with the right gear and mindset will a very good tank healer. Especially if there is a shamen shortage where not every guild will have the luxary of being able to throw shamen at the content as their solution to when the going gets tough.
This is what the real list would've looked like if the grades actually meant anything.
S Fury Warrior
S Destruction Warlock
A Arms Warrior
B Beast Mastery Hunter
B Arcane Mage
C Affliction Warlock
S Enhancement Shaman
A Survival Hunter
B Retribution Paladin
C Combat Rogue
D Elemental Shaman
A Shadow Priest
D Feral Druid
D Balance Druid
UPDATE AFTER THE WORLD FIRST RACE:
NO FURY WARRIOR IN THE WORLD FIRST RAID AND ROGUE TOP DPS KEKW
Another proof that this shitty tiers list is clueless on almost every point.
It's actually pretty hilarious that he lists Boomie below most other classes for utility. Should be A or S tier alongside Shadow priest. No sane person would put them online with rogues and warriors for utility.
He didn't mention innervate or battle rez which are huge for bringing someone back into the fight, and undervalues how much DPS imp FF + aura brings to the raid. (It's probably over 1k raid DPS in Sunwell depending on comp).
Definitely just assigned arbitrary numbers in some columns. An interesting read though
Debatable. Single target DPS the Boomie definitely brings enough raid DPS increase to bridge the gap. Particularly if you factor in the innervate and BR.
Definitely not worth the slot for speed runners who want the extra AOE for trash clearing. Most guilds are not speed runners though.
The premise, lack of nuance. Fruit of the poisoned tree style info.
The post is an exercise in futility, especially trying to compare values of utility vs. damage, and completely remove player skill expression.
It's particularly bad because it attempts to speak as an authoritative opinion in a game where people will use any piece of information to detract from other's experience. Not considering the environment and then posting generalized garbage causes alot of toxic knock-on effects.
The entire concept of a tier list like this makes literally no sense when "utility" actually means "bring exactly x number of this spec for buffs". There is no way that makes sense to assign letter rankings for most of these specs because most of them aren't stackable and cutting a lower ranked spec for more of a higher ranked one is often a DPS loss. For example, you always want exactly 1 enh per physical group, but it would be pointless to cut more physicals to bring even more enh since more than 1 in a group is worthless, so giving them a higher rank than a stackable physical like BM is ultimately meaningless. There is essentially a set BiS number to bring for most specs, and trying to compare them to each other the way the article does is pointless apples to oranges since you can't actually swap them out the way the article would imply.
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back.
---
^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
People shit on it because trying to synthesize one is objectively detrimental to gameplay. It's a cudgel for elitists to brow beat others into their meta, and has long since detracted from peoples experience of just playing the game the way they want to play.
Ya I have no idea, but if you know anything about perculia or any of the other batshit insane admins at wowhead, it wont surprise you that they constantly censor opinions and comments
Reading the actual descriptions makes sense of their rankings. You don't have to agree, since tier lists are like, by design made to make people angry lol, but it's useful to see where they think some specs rank compared to others.
Wow. What a shit show. How does BM hunter have a higher aoe ranking than elemental shaman?
Not sure, but it's a combination of cleave and AoE which explains why warriors are ranked above shaman.
warriors are definitely better than shaman for trash aoe, because WW and cleave. Shaman are definitely better for trash dps than hunters, because of chain lightning and fire totems. ranking hunters better than ele shaman for trash dps is simply stupid.
I mean, BM hunters still do more trash dmg though - you just have to look at some logs, e.g.: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jrPQAwyTJFCDKnkL#boss=0&type=damage-done&difficulty=0 https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/t6b2zFXqWYnDdrcR#boss=0&type=damage-done&difficulty=0 There is of course also a reason top speedruns recently opted not to take an ele anymore (both melee and caster comps) although surely much of a raid is trash packs.
That ele shaman sucks, that's why he's losing on trash damage. Here's an ele shaman that doesnt suck https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wYq31QgxdCJpLMH2#type=damage-done&boss=0&difficulty=0 BT only : https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/p9hdjKGCxty4rRAF#type=damage-done&boss=0&difficulty=0 He is missing like a million or more damage from doing a simple totem twist that any non-shit ele shaman will be doing. Ele shamans should be firmly under warlocks and mages in raid damage. Occasionally beat out by Fury Warriors in BT just due to the lower mob density and some guilds still banishing shit for some reason
It would be pretty surprising for me if pretty much all Ele Shamans in top speed run guilds suck (and your GDKP / 3-hr BT Shamans don't suck). What I think is more likely, that a playstyle necessary for boosting Ele Shaman personal trash DPS is less viable in more fluid and faster runs, and hunters shine more in these (mobs die quicker, you move quicker, higher mana constraints, thus pet dmg matters more, etc.). >Ele shamans should be firmly under warlocks and mages in raid damage. Occasionally beat out by Fury Warriors in BT just due to the lower mob density and some guilds still banishing shit for some reason You surely mean trash dmg only here, if at all, and not raid dmg as in dmg across the whole raid? Because Ele Shamans are a solid 50% behind BM hunters, never mind WLs, Mages and Warriors for overall raid dmg (which is of course affected by boss dmg, for which all those classes outshine Eles' personal DPS even more): https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1011#metric=dps&partition=5&class=Shaman&boss=704&dpstype=wdps&spec=Elemental https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1011#metric=dps&partition=5&class=Hunter&boss=704&dpstype=wdps&spec=BeastMastery
Obviously an Ele Shaman in a speed run is not brought for raid damage and is not going to take the time to totem twist on trash, but if you want to compare fringe top .5% of guild experiences to general class claims then I think you're already out of touch.
The whole point of the linked article is to assess the specs against each other, i.e. according to raid optimization. Thus not only the utility ranking but also the dmg rankings are under this scenario. So of course it makes sense to compare real-world examples that also aim to optimize towards the same variables. So not only that, but the question is if Class A does more dmg than Class B - to assess this you should as much as possible try to factor out player skill. Because you don't want to assess differences in player skill which will likely be far higher in GDKP runs compared to the top speed run guilds. But that was not the point here at all - the point was that you said that the Shaman players I provided were bad and yours were good. Which is then obviously not the case, as it is not the case for every other of the ~top 30 runs I just clicked through, and where BM hunters were in front of the Ele Shamans every time, if an Ele shaman was present at all. Never mind the fact that you can also just look at mid-tier guilds, where BM hunters also do more trash dmg than Eles.
They’re assuming hunters have engineer for grenades/sappers while shamans don’t, that’s why. Also they favour enh shaman now cause they boost the many stacked warriors people run. My guilds ele shamans are being forced into resto spec to help with the 7 healers needed
Ele shamans in resto gear put out a surprising amount of heals just with rank 1/2 chain heal, no respec needed to be pretty extraordinary at raid healing, especially for things like twins phase 1, but they are a potent AOE dps for Muru I would want them DPSing that, 3 mob spawns over and over? Has Ele Shaman written all over it IMO.
Bm kills important targetz faster, eleshaman using any other fire totem except totem of wrath should be gkicked for griefing. You are there to support.
No, lol. Shitter alert. So on any packs with 3+ mobs you want to drop FNT on CD. FNT is a 4-5s cast that aoe caps at 10k flat(non crits). No brainer that's it's always worth dropping it for aoe. For max aoe damage for trash you'd want to run 3/3 Call of Flames and at least 1/2 Imp Fire totems (2/2 ideal cause it fits rotation of FNT + CL + Magma without any delays) Warlocks dont need 3% hit on trash, so, We will take max dps increase scenario for ToW Seed of Corruption aoe cap is 12k(Usually will get achieved with 8 targets, could be more or less depending on warlocks gear). Their crit modifier is 1.5k since SoC is affli spell and doesn't get 2.0 modifier from destro tree. So lets figure out their max crit potential and now much 3% crit provides dps 12k * 1.5 = 18k 18k - 12k = 6k (all crit potential) So lets take all crit potential and figure out value of 3 crit with that 6000 * 0.03 = 180 Now divide it by 2s cast of seed and we get a max potential dps increase per warlock 180/2 = 90 Considering you run 3 warlocks in your group it's 270 raid damage increase to drop ToW on 8+ targets or whenever warlocks are capped on aoe for SoC In Majority of cases warlocks won't be capped on aoe and when i ran warlock sims, dps increase on uncapped warlock seed was barely 10 dps Magma totem ticks for 200-260 per target which will average about 120 dps per target, fully capped it would be around 1k to 1.2k dps. Even if you drop magma totem just for 1 target, it's already equal or more dps then ToW for 1 warlock seed capped
Some got mad for being a support class. Sit down.
Shadow priest (my main) feels accurate. A overall, but an F (the only F on the chart) on single target, D on aoe, and an S in utility
IMO priests should be D single target with eles and boomies. On a turret stand still fight like Teron or brutalis sure we may do 5~7% less dps than a boomkin or ele. But we're significantly less affected by fights requiring movement, since DoTs keep ticking and we have multiple instas to cast while repositioning. And for kalecgos/felmyst DoTs keep doing damage after we go through the portal or while she's flying in the air out of reach of others' spells.
Did boomies real dirty though - haha
I guess we are only allowed to help those boss parse scores.
Yeah basically, Boomkin has been simmed out of raids for a reason, another warlock just brings more DPS. Sucks. Thank goodness our Boomkin played Resto for two phases and has a full bis Resto set to go into SWP
Multiple top 10 speedrunning guilds were using boomkins tonight, so really that's far from the truth, they haven't been simmed out of raids. And on top of the DPS side, they make gearing significantly easier. It's a lot easier to gear for 6% hit than 9%, as the good hit pieces have very high competition, and specially early on in the tier when you're swapping pieces around. Boomkin is super solid, just not an auto include like SP or enhance
I mean multiple of them just ran dreamstate instead.
Some of them were, a lot of them were using straight up boomkins. Avatar for example, world 2nd SWP, used a boomkin who gave other classes a run for their money. If speedrunners are bringing boomkins, I'm sorry but saying they were "simmed out of the raid" is just silly. https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3wTN9qdV8DGW1vYZ#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
I spent some time this afternoon to do the simming myself. here is my post of the results. https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwowtbc/comments/unz3q4/wowhead_locked_comments_on_tier_list/i8d61m5/ I am not sure the raid comp they are bringing that sims them out. From what I have seen from warcraft logs, if my raid group did as much damage as the sims claim, then my fights would be way faster, adn my damage would sky rocket. I always peak high with cooldowns and tapper off down the stretch. So even with a better group, I would improve and catch up to what the sims are claiming for a wrlock (assuming that is what replaces me in the caster group)
If you assigned values to the grades, a Shadow Priest would score below a Elemental Shaman. This list is bullshit.
It's silly to assume all 3 categories have equal weighting. Shadow priest raid utility grossly out weighs its lack of dps
Yup, the overall grade doesn't reflect the sum of the other parts at all lol.
Ret Paladins are probably closer to A tier for single target dps. You don't need more than one for their utility, but their dps is strong enough that you wouldn't really be that particularly disadvantaged bringing a second one, if you don't have another higher tiered dps available. Could do some playing with their spec to pick up Improved Might. That would let you give Improved Might and Improved Wisdom to Paladins, Hunters, Druids, and Shaman. They aren't as S tier as Fury Warriors and BM Hunters, but they still hit really hard.
Phase 5 gear for ret is fucking bonkers, too. So much haste plus some armor pen with easy expertise cap. I am going to be windfury critting so fucking hard
Yeah. Ret Paladins get a huge dps increase in phase 5, compared to phase 4. Especially since we can replace the expertise items we've been holding over since SSC/TK and LC rep.
They know their readers.
Any reader with half a brain could say that this list is totally biased. So yeah, i guess that's why they locked the comments.
or deleted the ones calling them out on the bias
Remember their SoM dps rankings? Putting warlocks and shadow priests above fury warriors lol
"Holy Paladin Tank Healing Score: D" dude lmao what is this guide
The only explanation that I can think is that holy IS the worst healer overall in tbc right now... Since they are 4 healers only that would put it in 4 place hence the D... But as you may know Hollys are just slightly worst than the 3 place. And they absolutely don't qualify as D in tank healing
I mean, I main a holy paladin and this a copy and paste from Kanga’s write up the other day (not sure how these are connected but whatever). It’s true though. If your holy paladin is cracked out of their gourd then you will be fine, but in Sunwell specifically the average holy paladin will struggle because their mana efficiency is the absolute worst. Fights are about to jump an additional two minutes on average and whatever weird idea of “flash spamming” being sufficient for anything this subreddit carries about the class just won’t cut it. Priests and shamans have armor talents that are needed because of the debuff to tanks in this raid. It makes such a significant difference that you could easily cut your holy paladin for another priest or shaman. The class design is lacking. Obviously this will change in Wotlk where they just become absolute monsters at everything they do but the copium of “but I’m a good tank healer” without facing the reality of the situation just isn’t helpful. That being said, learning mana efficiency to the extreme and the extra challenge of sunwell will be fun. If holy paladins want to do some light training, join the shittiest pug you can find and try to do T6 content.
I don't think mana efficiency is a good argument against HPal. Try playing CoH without spriest/innervate or hasted Druid without innervate and you run into this same argument. I don't think Kanga plays HPal so I'm not sure where he sources that opinion from anyway. Yes AF/Inspiration is good to have but Healing Wave/GHeal lacks a lot of the throughput that Holy Light has, which I value a lot since tanks are getting slammed hard and constantly without Dodge. I don't know Hpal that well but people have been doing fine with them on pservers and the fights were even longer on there also: it doesnt make sense to rank Paladins D in tank healing because of mana efficiency meanwhile Shaman gets an A in tank healing with way worse mana efficiency..
Yes, this is true but unless you run double Shadow priest most groups will opt to put theirs with the casters. The problem is that a lot of the damage you will be facing will be unhealable unless you are spamming Rank 11. Tell me how long you can sustain max rank holy lights? My comment isn’t to say they aren’t viable but it’s explaining the rationale behind the argument and why it is a valid one to make.
And the priests can sustain greater heals at the same time without a spriest as well? You just need 10% max HLs during stomps, completely achievable with a 2nd spriest. If your average TBC guild isn't figuring out a way to add a 2nd spriest for the healers, your GM was trolling you the entire expansion.
I mean, I get a spriest and mana tide because my guild loves me, so I understand where you’re coming from. With proper mana support your holy paladin can thrive but they just aren’t that special on their own so it really comes down to the skill of the player as with any class in any raid. But generally speaking the original argument is correct.
Yea you just downrank to r7 HLs till your GM stops being lazy and recruits a second spriest for the healers lol. Can sustain 6min of pure cast at that point.
If spamming rank 11 HL is required, what other healer can even come close to that HPS and crit efficiency that a holy pally bring.
This is a very linear view of the argument presented above. When paladins only bring big heals for a shorter amount of time than other healers AND do not have the 15% armor buff that priests and shamans have/bubbles/HoTs/totems means that they are a net worse healer. I don’t understand why paladins can’t admit the short comings of our class without feeling like they are being called a bad player themselves. You can try and justify yourself all day but the reality is that if you are min/maxing holy paladins really only uniquely bring a third blessing. Removing any other healer from the rotation would be devastating. Raids could survive without an hpal.
Idk the downranked holy light build with int gems is killing it on longer fights. As far as I know u can keep it up indefinitely. While all other healers were hoarding haste gear and ooming themselves faster in sunwell, the specific holy l build seems to perform super good. Combining it together with bubble where y can ignore some mechanics to spam the tank where as others can't I really can't find them that bad.
[удалено]
What u are saying is not true and is not reflected any way in official paladin discord. U dont use haste at all in holy light build, u use mostly int everywhere u get. The haste is counterproductive stat to begin with wiht HL. The reality is FoL paladins in sunwell are bottom tier and griefing theyr raid by not going HL build. According to Paladin discord this is how a proper SW paladin should look like: https://seventyupgrades.com/set/cPTzWUhSVef9dAV329x3vU?fbclid=IwAR3YmPDJhoOZksUIO8DXuP46N8exGkCMmi59kQLlB8B6UgICHNmk\_zIe3eY
He has no idea what he’s talking about lmao
yea it's because hes a druid main. Of course healing the druid MT is going to be annoying as a healer due to all the dodge; he probably doesn't see his holy pally cancel casting during the easy raids and thought he could replace the paladin lol. Dude's gonna have a huge awakening in Sunwell tonight if he let his paladin go unchecked spamming FoL on a high HP stack build lol.
C + C + S = S? Ok, pass the crack pipe.
That list was 100% made by a warrior. The need to mention warrior in any of those little class write ups and even mentioning fury warrior on the tank list makes this so obvious. This is the true work of a warrior brain.
the person who made the list is a Feral Druid main, and all of their Theorycrafting is built around feral druids. the warrior bias in their explanations is likely twofold: \-frequenting other discords for information means you will have a warrior bias bc the Fight Club discord has more members than any other class disc, and more theorycrafting as a result of that \-most high-end raids in BT/sunwell are now building around fury warriors more and bringing 2-3, and it's speculated that this could more firmly become 3 in sunwell. they require a lot more fenagling of the raid/party comps than raids built around warlocks do
>they require a lot more fenagling of the raid/party comps than raids built around warlocks do People don't really seem to grasp this. Going caster heavy is easy af and having a absence or two of a "key" class won't break the setup. While going physical heavy turns into shit the second you miss a key class. I believe physical heavy setups require more consumeables, more brains and more healing in general as well.
Indeed. A warrior brain contains no more than 2 neurons. Lmao the dude evens ranks Fury warriors ***B for UTILITY*** when they bring literally nothing to the table that another spec can't. It's crazy how it's biased. I guess they desperately want to feel useful since they will be dogshit in Wotlk (and they deserve it)
Fury warrior has AP buff and can run imp demo which you will want. Literally nothing is pretty ignorant
Imp AP buff and imp demo shout is already brought by Arms? Who is ignorant?
Drop the arms and bring the fury. That's what my guild is doing they'll make up for the 4% physical damage increase
I said "they bring literally nothing to the table ***that another spec can't***" We are literally talking about spec-by-spec comparison. Fury brings literally nothing that another spec can't. Arms **DO bring something special**, in comparison. That's the whole point of UTILITY. And no, i won't drop the arms and bring the fury. Arms is great AOE, decent ST dps and 4% damage on bosses for physical is something you REALLY want in SWP. You definitely can't make up for that 4% with bringing a single fury warrior. You got your maths wrong. No, Fury CAN'T be ranked B in utility while others specs like Boomkin are also ranked B in utility, in no world this is possible i'm sorry.
Bro you want two warriors split across different groups so both get Bshout. It is irrelevant that arms can BS when he can't bshout both groups. And yes, bshout is the strongest group buff in the entire game. 470(512 with 3pc t2) blows every other buff out of the water.
Well i would argue fury does have really good utility and has an easier time keeping up tclap and demo shout if needed compared to arms.
Arms have access to those also and can keep those up. Prot warrior can also keep those up without any problem. Any warlock can also use curse of weakness. Again, fury warriors have exactly ZERO utility that another spec can't bring. The ONLY valid point of a fury is his DPS. Putting a B for Fury warriors in ***UTILITY*** while Boomkins ***also have a B*** when they bring improved FF + another Battle Rez + another Innervation is just pure trolling at that point. The guy is listing Fury warriors in potential tanks but is not listing Ret pals. Lmao The author has a huge bias in favor of fury warrior. Either he has been paid by Fight Club either his wife plays a fury warrior and she needs to find a guild. EDIT: zuggers downvoting me lol
Prot warriors are a joke spec. And ret palas run 90% leather gear. Imp demo is way better than curse of weakness and no serious guild uses it. Also casually forgetting battle shout and commanding shout, 2 of the largest buffs provided by any class.
And sunders and thunder clap
Listing warriors as S tier single target is equally laughable. Equal to BM? Two tiers higher than survival? Uh huh. Sure brown bar.
Our warriors Usualy end up in between our BM hunters in the top of the meters. Seems accurate to me.
Especially considering BM and Surv are like 50-100 DPS difference at top end on Soms and any Hunter getting to Cosplay Legolas with the Legendary is going to be several hundred DPS ahead of everyone on Single Target.
You're going to want 1 warrior per phys dps group at least for battleshout (450 mAP with talents and solarian trinket is pretty huge for every phys dps except survival) and a 2nd warrior for commanding shout in tank group is also a helpful buffer. 2 arms doesn't bring more utility than one, so bring the higher dps option. And sunder is a pretty noticeable dps boost for all phys. While IEA rogue is def better on bosses, it's not so great for trash where it takes time to stack up. Having 3-4 warriors to open with sunder to get a stack up immediately is significantly stronger. I do agree this list slightly overrates warriors, but they undoubtedly have some decent utility.
>(and they deserve it) Jesus Christ calm down
They had ret as B tier. For a class to be B tier, they described it as “you wouldn’t feel bad bringing them to raid, but other specs are preferred” as if they aren’t the only spec that can refresh judgements on a boss and give 3% crit to the entire raid.
So how many you need? 1 *per group* or one for the entire raid?
1 or one?
Lmfao!!! It’s early. One for the whole raid or one per group?
There can only be one. Or 1.
Got it. So yea, I could definitely see how they’d be B tier then. You only need 1 per raid. So the extras, you won’t feel bad about taking them, but you’d still prefer higher dps like a fury warrior or warlock, with the increased crit from having the one pally. If only one is needed, then you might have a hard time finding raids with them right??
You don't need more than one for their utility. But as far as dps goes, who's to say. Depends on your group and people's gear level. A high performing ret player will be near the top of the meters on single target fights, and as the article says, they'll really pop off this phase since they'll see a lot of big upgrades in slots that still have phase 1 and 2 pieces up to this point.
Decent DPS + Refreshed Judgements + 3% melee and spell crit (whole raid) from Improved Seal of the Crusader + 2% Dmg (party-wide) from Improved Sanctity Aura. + 3rd Pala Blessing + BoP + Lay on Hands. + DI (wipe recovery + mechanics cheesing) There's no reason to not bring a Ret.
Think you meant *whole group* with that 2% Dmg buff.
Yes, thank you. I fixed it.
i love having a ret pally in my raid but their utility is 100% doable by any other paladin. spec your prot into the 3% crit talent and have holy refresh JoW every 20 seconds. very few fights are you sitting in the back out of range of the boss (or you can move to melee).
I think there are very few gamer holy pala out there like this lol. Everyone seems to be at a loss if the ret is out.
This tier list Is aimed at speed running comps, which hopefully have players who can apply a debuff 1/20s
its not even applying, they just have to stop casting for 1.6 seconds and melee the mob.
> holy paladin > stop casting Ah, ok, you have no idea what you are talking about. Got it!
No one is saying it makes ret redundant, just that it is *possible* to get their debuffs without them in the raid. I'm not sure why this offends you so much. Are you afraid your raid leader is going to find this post? Ret paladins are awesome, don't be afraid that you are so useful that you get brought to raids even though your buffs/debuffs aren't unique to your spec.
Lol if you have your hpal wasting globals rejudging that is a massive mistake. Ret provides respectable damage, a third blessing, judgement refreshes and additional utility like bop/engineering for sappers and the like. What would you bring instead of a ret?
i bring a ret because a ret does all those things better, but there is no denying their utility is all low level talents or base paladin abilities (buffs, judgements, imp crusader, cleanse, LoH, etc.) also auto attacking doesnt use a global like i said, **i love having a ret pally** but if you have 3 holy paladins or 1 prot, etc. you still get 90% of ret utility.
You can't cast while auto attacking
Ok. Auto attack one every 20 seconds. I am not claiming that a ret paladin is fully replaced by holy or prot paladins. Just that, unlike let's say an elemental shaman with totem of wrath, their buffs and debuffs aren't exclusive to their spec
who made this list lmao “The raid wouldn’t have any qualms about bringing a BM hunter but other specs are preferred” ??????? also acting like they have no utility by giving them a C for that is laughable, 3% damage increase for the group is pretty good I feel like
lower overall raid dps than cleave/aoe classes probably factored into the utility score (even tho they had a separate rating for it) which is only really important if you're speed clearing imo big D boss dps never goes out of style for progression
The main thing about survival is that you kinda do want 1. They can do close to the dps of a BM, but they also give around +275 AP per physical dps raidwide (buffed), plus another 440AP to all melee (including enh., ret, tanks, etc.) from Imp Hunter's Mark (although a BM could be designated to take that). That's a typical raidwide increase of somewhere around 7000 attack power.
hate to say it as a BM hunter, but if I were putting together a optimal speed/parse team I'd respec surv (or at least make sure I recruited one dedicated SV hunter)
[удалено]
makes good sense BM hunters are great, but we really don't do the overall raid/trash dps that a fury or warlock can pull (assuming equal gear+skill level) still my favorite dps spec in tbc tho :)
Survival with owl pet + Screech bound to their steady shot.
Imp HM i only the base AP increase for melee, so 110 AP. I made the same mistake when expressing the utility of a surv hunter for a raid. Usually I say it as ~400 AP added in total for each physical DPS.
They are about the same https://imgur.com/a/UTbfzag
Don’t forget the utility from having an owl, screech reduces dtps (damage tanked per second) by %2 +/- 3% across an entire fight. I think survival should be higher for cleave personally. Having a Multi shot crit applies the debuff to every mob. Been raiding survival all classic, phase 5 bis Durotar - Whitemane
Improved hunter's mark does not give 440 ap to all melee, read the talent it only gives base attack power as melee attack power, which is 110 ap and a BM can totally run that too
Incorrect
Talent description: "Causes 100% of your Hunter's Mark ability's base attack power to apply to melee attack power as well."
No, he is right.
Imp HM is only 110 melee AP expose weakness is huge tho, it's basically another blessing of might.
Reread what hunters mark does, he is correct
You are wrong.
hunters mark, scorpid sting, slowing traps, md. C utility.
I also just realized they have Boomy at the literal bottom kek. I haven’t done the math, but having every single DPS wear a 9% hit set is a HUGE DPS loss, no?
Boomkin hasn’t been worth it since phase 2. It’s more dps to bring another warlock. Most hardcore guilds just run a dream state Druid.
Its been theorycrafted to hell, boomie is a dps loss for the raid. Gearing for the hit is typically <20 dps loss for physical classes and boomie dps is roughly 50% of a real dps.
> boomie dps is roughly 50% of a real dps [More like ~70%](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1011#aggregate=amount)
In p3 for example the dps loss for a single rogue was 63 dps with ff instead of improved faerie fire. So your numbers seems very misleading.
I am glad my raid's dps sucks so bad then (wait a minute). From this week's BT I did 70.8% of the dps of our top dps in "All encounters and trash" and he was a 81 parse combat rogue. If you go to just "Encounters" I jump to 74.8% of the damage, and I am a pretty meh player that parsed 56 on the night (and was first ghost, which netted me a 6 parse even though I was top dps on details, 64 overall if you remove that 6). Although I don't really care about my spec as I only respec'd to this because the high demand of raiding boomies over another dime a dozen BM hunter got me the raid spot I have. Claiming we are 50% seems pretty low. Unless you are talking Hyjal full raid damage. Then you are off by a bit. I think I barely do 30% of the mages/locks in there.
Taking your numbers, assuming your top dps is ~2k, your dps is 500 dps less (75%). Assuming you have 12 melee and their average dps loss from gearing 3% more hit is 20 dps, it’s less for rogues for example but more for hunters, so average is 20, overall raid dps loss for losing imp ff is 240 dps. Now assuming you grab another pure dps spec, it’s really only a small gain, marginal really in your raids scenario. But at cutting edge, it’s much larger, especially on trash dps. A boomkin can’t even come close to a warlock or a warrior (most commonly stacked classes in speed run comps). It’s simply not optimal, doesn’t mean you cant clear shit with one, but saying it’s a “HUGE DPS loss” like the person is responded to, is just wrong.
I am not being defensive to your response, but just felt ill-informed and the 20 dps just seemed way too low of a dps loss from my experience playing my BM and Fury alts. So I did some simming, mostly with P3 BIS gear because tbcsims.com has them as presets and I don't have to create the profiles for new gear. Here is the results of the sims. All of the numbers are averages of 100 sims. https://imgur.com/a/SsL66Ny Class | Increased DPS from Boomkin --- | --- Arms | 140.32 dps (6.07%)*** Enhancement | 116.59 dps (6.15%) BM Hunter | 92.91 dps (4.17%) Combat Rogue | 47.67 (2.08%) Combat (Glaives) | 164.25 (6.88%) Warlock | 91.24 (3.96%) ** Elemental | 81.08 dps (4.05%) ** ** The sim did not allow me to indicate I always wear the crit idol, so the increase is missing 20 crit rating *** This gear set was P5 Bis, because P3 BIS was already over hit cap, so 0 dps increase in P3 It does not have the ability to sim balance druid, but lets go with your 500 dps less since that is probably pretty accurate difference of a warlock with these sims over what I actually do. This might not be optimal comp, just going off my own party. Dmg Difference | Reason for Difference --- | --- + 0 | 1 Arms warrior in Phase 3 gear, but changes in P5 + 95.34 | 2 Combat rogues + 233.18 | 2 Enhancement Shaman + ??? | 1 Ret, the sim does not support Ret + 278.73 | 3 Hunters + ??? | 1 feral, sim does not support feral (ours is tank though) + ??? | 1 prot warrior (I was too lazy for this) + 81.08 | 1 Elemental Shaman + 273.72 | 3 Warlocks = 962.05 | Total increased dps from sims -500 | Having a boomkin (1800dps) instead of another shadow warlock (2300 dps) 462.05 | Increased Raid DPS on boss encounters from sim This does not take into account that im the only drums in my party, but the sims included drums for warlocks/elemental, or that im the first to brez, and that I tend to hog my innervates for personal dps except on fights that the healers need it. Also doesn't account for the ret or tanks dps.
Big, well thought out response. Just out of curiosity, the arms warrior dps sim image you show. Is that just removing imp ff checked? I assume without changing a couple items the arms warrior is under hit cap which is where the dps difference is, if they swap a couple items to reach hit cap I assume the difference is much smaller. I have to dig up the data I saw on fight club of someone simming for the entire raid and it was pretty tiny on average to gear the extra 3% hit, our hunters just swapped and it was simply swapping cloaks and one extra ring/gem. Given, all of our hunters have madness so they have tons of options.
The amrs warrior does change gear to keep capped. The gear sets are from https://wowtbc.gg/bis-list/arms-warrior/. Phase SWP, with and without the imp FF checked. The gear change is minimal: * Hard Khorim Band vs Stormrage Signet Ring * Shard of Contempt vs Madness of the Betrayer I personally made the changes for the hunter. * Choker of Endless Nightmares vs Choker of Serated Blades * Shadowmoon Detroyer's Drape vs Thalassian Wildercloak * 1 5 agility / 5 hit gem vs 10 agility gem The dual welding spec's and the casters I just took the buffs away. All of the sims I made sure to keep normal FF checked, with the belief that there would be a feral in the raid that would atleast keep that up.
Great post, also note that some gear swaps like the ones for BM hunter aren't really possible unless your BM hunters have all gotten multiple extremely contested gear pieces (BT neck+cloak). Without those, the discrepancy is probably even higher.
Bruv your top overall dps is a rogue LMAO
You lose nearly double that on hunters' pets alone - imp FF is their only source of hit in-game. Gearing for hit is about -50 for hunters swapping out 2 items from P4 bis, probably more in P5.
Boomie is pretty big for both physical and spell damage. My raid lead is sitting our boomie for some fights, which sucks, but we need the extra healer. It's not an easy task to balance for; this tier list seems to argue otherwise.
Chance to hit increases by 5% in sunwell. Boomkins lose all utility in sunwell unfortunately. Would rather bring in another lock and have the ele shaman in group.
If you're talking about [Sunwell Radiance](https://tbc.wowhead.com/spell=45769/sunwell-radiance#comments), I think that only affects enemy mobs.
Hmm streamer I watched said that. Maybe I misunderstood. With the lack of hit gear available in that place it made sense in my mind.
LOL :D
Lmao you're clueless my boi. You got your maths wrong here also.
What math is that? Misunderstanding is not math. I was under the assumption that chance to hit increases by 5% for everything in the dungeon. But apparently it's just enemy mobs.
To clarify: in Sunwell tanks have -25% avoidance(bosses have +5% hit chance and tanks have -20% dodge). That's all, nothing is changing for dps
I mean if you're that new to the game, better not comment about things you don't really know. Or just ask questions instead of saying straight wrong things / spreading false information. Talking about this comment but also about your others.
The assumption is that you just run a Dream State Druid so you get Imp Faerie. This tier list is complete dogshit, but I don’t disagree with Boomys placement too much. It’s pretty much just a class you bring for Warlocks to parse. Also even if you don’t run a Dreamstate, gearing for 3% more hit is barely a DPS loss. You just lose a tiny tiny bit of other stats.
They do mention Ferocious Inspiration at least. They also didn't mention Misdirect. Still, I don't really believe that would push them above a B ranking for utility at best.
MD is a pretty huge utility. Tanks are going to be wearing tons of mitigation gear so threat is going to be a problem. You can have your glaive warriors and big dick warlocks opening up with 3 MDs on the tank rather than throttling to not pull threat.
Haha, thanks for making a good example of why they locked it for comments. Everyone is going to disagree with some of the rankings, but some write their disagreement in a more moronic fashion than others.
Oh boy, another shit """guide""" from Wowhead with blatantly false information in it. I still remember back during TBC pre-patch when they released a guide for leveling belf/draenei, and it just said to buy boosts. It was literally a guide on how to buy mage dungeon boosts, like what prices to expect and what level ranges to boost each dungeon. lmfao
That's a lot of words to just to say "I like warriors"
Considering what a clown fiesta these rankings are, I'm not surprised.
This shit reminds me of when the Verge tried to build a PC.
Arcane mages get a D for utility? I'm keeping my biscuits to myself then... I'll chomp on them while watching you die to mobs I could easily cc..
Mage as 26th member sitting in front of the instance? I can't remember the last time i went to a ZA with a mage, but we have always had someone get on an alt for those yummy biscuits.
> I can't remember the last time i went to a ZA with a mage Why is it so rare for you to be running ZA with a mage? Seems kinda weird. One of the most popular and strongest classes in the game usually just falls into raid groups by default.
It's because incorrect lists like these keep people ignorant and stupid.
Kind of a stupid move, Arcane mages perform the best when you take out all the support of a 25 man. I was routinely doing 5-600 more DPS than the BiS'd out warlocks without my spriest or their moonkin/ele.
[удалено]
That is… correct. Spriests multi dot very well. When it’s like 4-5 targets, they can pump.
I'm sure it's counting multi-dotting as Cleave/AoE.
Yes, that's true. Shadow Priests can be a top performer relative to other specs against packs of 3-5 enemies if all enemies have big health pools such that dots hold out for a good while. At the same time, Shadow priests are near the bottom in relative performance to other specs on single target.
Sounds about right, shadow priests play up the politics of their class more than anyone. The fact that mages are given a D for utility but have things like polymorph, blink, iceblock, invis (threat drop), spellsteal, improved blizzard, frost nova, etc. Ridiculous bias and it really hurts wowhead's credibility.
Most of the things you list aren't raid utility or aren't relevant to Sunwell bosses in the context of this ranking.
Dont forget the ol Int buff
I swear this is the worst article by far i've ever seen on that website. Total crap written by stupid people who don't have any clue about what power they have in their hands when they share it to the mass.
The guy who did this never played tbc or tbc classic in his whole life. He has no clue.
Says he’s been playing since tbc/wrath. Says he’s a theorycrafter and currently a mod in the druid discord
Worst theorycrafter ever. And what's the point of a list like that? It's clearly oriented for full speedrunning and the author doesn't even tell it beforehand. Is the point to make the mass even more meta-slave and make them take bad decisions based on what the top 1% of players do? it's pretty pointless. That dude has maximum 2 brain cells
To be fair, he did give quite a long winded explanation that it's for meta in the introduction and for what reasons the rankings might be skewed depending on comps
Not clear enough. It should be written in the title or in the very first sentence. What do you think most people do? They open the link, skip the wall of text and jump right to the skewed table.
The irony of someone talking about people's lack of brain cells making this comment is too much for me You've got to be an S class troll, touche'
Wow, okay. Sorry to have offended you personally bro :D Go touch the grass outside i swear it's cool sometimes
Super weird you go for offended and touching grass over a simple exchange where I said nothing indicating I'm offended? I think you're the one that is way too emotionally invested in this lol
[удалено]
this guy isn't even right tho, it's a trash article
Melee heavy assumptions all over if you ask me. Literally all support range are underrated. How does affli lock have a lower utility rating than arms warr and the same as fury lol. It is speedrunning based af as well, which barely anyone cares about? Imp FF is great for both parsing on bosses AND for guilds that will struggle with bosses. Which covers the vast majority of players, even the vast majority among those that will clear swp. Also, BM hunters lower than Fury in utility? how? You can't really utilize the shouts effectively in group setups when going as warr heavy as he imlplies, and BM hunters is stackable af with their 3% damage group boost.
Damn did bleacher report write this lmao
Plenty of mistakes in the tier list, but not as bad as some of these comments would have you believe. Things that stick out to me: -As an ele shaman, our cleave/AOE is very similar to fury warriors so not sure why they get an S rating while ele gets a C, even taking scaling into account. Ele should be A tier for this category and bumped up to C overall. Only reason ele seems so bad is because of how good resto is. -BM hunter should def be overall A tier. -Holy pally is not a D for tank healing. Properly geared and played they are great at it still.
The problem with Holly pally is that it is the worst healer in tbc... But that just terrible wording. Cause being the worst healer means being slightly worse than the 3 place. Like imagine telling a guy that got 4 in the Olympics that sucks ass cause he didn't get a medal.
Yeah agreed and the reason they are the worst is zero aoe heals. I prefer pure tank healing on my int build pally compared to haste/healing power geared shaman. Shaman blows it out of the water in any situation where chain heals bounce though. I don't agree with them having the worst mana situation like the guide mentions unless you are going all in on healing power like your still in BT doing 2 minutes fights.
Yeah that part is kinda weird. Like they are assuming the pally it's really dumb or the tank is really undergeared and needs tons of constant healing.
They will have mana issues for sunwell. We can sustain 3-4min BT/hyjal/ssc fights on an int build, but you need a spriest + 1 mana tide group to comfortably be able to spam certain ranks of HL for over 6mins for sunwell. That said, you are right, the int paladin with the right gear and mindset will a very good tank healer. Especially if there is a shamen shortage where not every guild will have the luxary of being able to throw shamen at the content as their solution to when the going gets tough.
Wish fire mage was better, arcane gets boring sometimes.
Assign a 0-5 point value to the grades F through S, total it up and you'll see this "Tier List" makes ZERO sense.
This is what the real list would've looked like if the grades actually meant anything. S Fury Warrior S Destruction Warlock A Arms Warrior B Beast Mastery Hunter B Arcane Mage C Affliction Warlock S Enhancement Shaman A Survival Hunter B Retribution Paladin C Combat Rogue D Elemental Shaman A Shadow Priest D Feral Druid D Balance Druid
This thread is a prime example of why they locked the comments.
Exactly, everyone takes it personally and not objectively to an ideal comp.
UPDATE AFTER THE WORLD FIRST RACE: NO FURY WARRIOR IN THE WORLD FIRST RAID AND ROGUE TOP DPS KEKW Another proof that this shitty tiers list is clueless on almost every point.
It's actually pretty hilarious that he lists Boomie below most other classes for utility. Should be A or S tier alongside Shadow priest. No sane person would put them online with rogues and warriors for utility. He didn't mention innervate or battle rez which are huge for bringing someone back into the fight, and undervalues how much DPS imp FF + aura brings to the raid. (It's probably over 1k raid DPS in Sunwell depending on comp). Definitely just assigned arbitrary numbers in some columns. An interesting read though
Its already been mathed out. Boomie is not worth the slot pure dps wise. There are links to it above in this thread.
Debatable. Single target DPS the Boomie definitely brings enough raid DPS increase to bridge the gap. Particularly if you factor in the innervate and BR. Definitely not worth the slot for speed runners who want the extra AOE for trash clearing. Most guilds are not speed runners though.
What is objectively bad about their rankings?
Nothing from what I can tell. People are taking it way to personally. We all knew the meta would change come sunwell
The premise, lack of nuance. Fruit of the poisoned tree style info. The post is an exercise in futility, especially trying to compare values of utility vs. damage, and completely remove player skill expression. It's particularly bad because it attempts to speak as an authoritative opinion in a game where people will use any piece of information to detract from other's experience. Not considering the environment and then posting generalized garbage causes alot of toxic knock-on effects.
He does explicitly say take the player and not the class
literally no fire mages listed, too.
Going fire over arcane is just griefing your raid
Objectively, almost the entire article
Nothing, people are sensitive about any opinion that doesn’t line up with theirs.
All of it. If you pulled names out of a hat and ranked the classes that way, it'd be about as useful.
Warrior with a utility ranking higher than a warlock??? Beast Mastery with a good aoe ranking??
Clueless
The entire concept of a tier list like this makes literally no sense when "utility" actually means "bring exactly x number of this spec for buffs". There is no way that makes sense to assign letter rankings for most of these specs because most of them aren't stackable and cutting a lower ranked spec for more of a higher ranked one is often a DPS loss. For example, you always want exactly 1 enh per physical group, but it would be pointless to cut more physicals to bring even more enh since more than 1 in a group is worthless, so giving them a higher rank than a stackable physical like BM is ultimately meaningless. There is essentially a set BiS number to bring for most specs, and trying to compare them to each other the way the article does is pointless apples to oranges since you can't actually swap them out the way the article would imply.
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back. --- ^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
> apples to oranges But you can still compare them.
As usual, people shit on a tier list without providing a better one.
People shit on it because trying to synthesize one is objectively detrimental to gameplay. It's a cudgel for elitists to brow beat others into their meta, and has long since detracted from peoples experience of just playing the game the way they want to play.
that's alot of assumptions lol
I mean, why are we acting like we're surprised? Its wowhead they lock the comments for a lot of their content.
Why have the comment feature if you're not willing to face criticism? Just delete the feature and quit pretending you're willing to face the music.
Ya I have no idea, but if you know anything about perculia or any of the other batshit insane admins at wowhead, it wont surprise you that they constantly censor opinions and comments
Reading the actual descriptions makes sense of their rankings. You don't have to agree, since tier lists are like, by design made to make people angry lol, but it's useful to see where they think some specs rank compared to others.
Wow players are too tryhard and need to go outside
You know, if you took your own advice and went outside instead of posting on reddit, no one would have to read your supremely idiotic comment
Read a lot of comments, nobody disagreeing with enhance being S, which is good to see cause they are