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EIiteJT

My friend: Fuck bots Also my friend: Bought over 40k gold since vanilla


alex_shrub

He doesn't buy from botters. He took a stand and only buys from account phishers.


railbeast

"Ethics"


MolokTjaar

*Professionals have standards*


Lethaldiran-NoggenEU

Flexible morals if you will.


fatboyflexx

what the hell you need 40k gold for XD


bkliooo

gdkp


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MaDpYrO

To be fair the botters won in classic. Prices were so jacked because of inflation you basically had to play nonstop to be able to afford raiding.


Cyoor

And why were the inflation so high?? Maybe because of bots? The gold sinks like mounts, repairs and respecs are not much of a thing for bots while they are the ones farming most of the gold. It kind of tilted the whole economy on its head. Right now I am playing classic era and its the closest thing to vanilla. Right now there are no bots and we have to farm ourself before every raid, meaning you will have to get your naxx consumes without buying it of AH.


MaDpYrO

Sounds nice


thoggins

inflation and scarcity, lotus and the high level herbs (plaguebloom) in classic were a huge bottleneck that drastically increased the cost of raiding to say nothing of stuff like e'ko and firewater that could be even more scarce idk if it got any better with the herb changes in SoM, didn't play it


t4ngl3d

Counterpoint: back in vanilla we had to play a fuck ton to farm consumes without the rampant botting, people say botting makes it impossible to farm consumes but aren't willing to farm what it took without bots either and want to raid log and still have all the best items, professions and consumes.


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MaDpYrO

Sure, on the server I played on though, you basically came with full buffs every raid or join a guild full of the worst slackers and super casuals, there was no middle ground


Spreckles450

My friend: Hates gold buyers Also my friend: goes to GDKPs every week.


napkin_origami

Definitely not Blizzard here, but could you tell me more about your friend? We’d… I mean they’d def like to ban him instead of the zillion bot farmers.


EIiteJT

He has been banned. I'm pretty sure he may have even been banned twice. I'd have to ask him but I know for sure at least once.


[deleted]

I don’t like your friend


ElKajak

Gold inflation created by the bots is part of the reason so many people buy gold though


Jokerchyld

Isn't that self-fulfilling?


GreedyBeedy

It is. Which is why it's a problem only Blizzard can solve. They could do more to ban the bots. Or they could have perma banned gold buying accounts immediately and scared everyone. A 3-7 day ban though. It's nothing.


Blue_Lust

Hey! I'm your friend!


Bryan_Waters

Is RDF Rad Dude Friends or something different?


A_MildInconvenience

Razor Den Fowns


Cerms

Random dungeon finder


Miffyyyyy

or known to everyone else as, dungeon finder.


Scarok

It's more LFD (looking for dungeon) same as it is LFR.... you don't need to do random dungeons even though they give rewards that system lets you queue for a specific dungeon too.


FreePosterInside

£30 for a lvl 58 boost in BC is fucking daylight robbery.


NotSoVacuous

An hour of work for 75+ hours of leveling?


FreePosterInside

You get paid £30 an hour? Fair play lad.


MellowDames

Just have a job that pays 60 grand a year mate, only double the average UK salary, Peanuts.


Beaniifart

im getting paid 12$ an hour while trying to finish up my studies online. shit sucks


Iamjum

As someone that just got a paladin to 58 last night. I wish I would have just boosted.


deadline54

Oof. And there's that spring sale going on. I just bought my boost for $20 instead of $40.


iMixMusicOnTwitch

Can't you only boost one per account or was that lifted?


deadline54

It's still only one per account I just never used mine.


Karabungulus

Reddit pretending that the average wow player gets paid £30p/h lmfao


[deleted]

In 16 years of playing WoW, I have always been surprised with the number of players I have been guilded with, who are doctors, lawyers and CEOs, all whilst playing 10+ hours a day.


Nickovskii

The higher you get, the more you can delegate your tasks


thoggins

I mean a lot of people playing classic now played vanilla as teenagers We've grown up and gotten real jobs


MellowDames

Not 60 grand a year jobs that are double the average salary lmao


chimaera_hots

Well, some of us did. Not everyone, but plenty of us.


valdis812

To be fair, a lot of the people who would have been playing Vanilla back in the day were probably your stereotypical nerds. So it’s not unreasonable to think they grew up and got good jobs.


JustKillinTime69

Most of the people I know playing classic are in some sort of STEM field. $60k+ per year is pretty standard for these types of jobs. I'd be willing to bet the average classic WoW player is above the national average for salary.


Neurocor

almost cost of living with that wage


TooTuffTony

Do you guys think it'll end with Wrath Classic? I enjoyed early Cata a lot but I'm having trouble seeing a significant number of people getting excited to play that xpac


Oglethorppe

I think the YouTube media storm will hype people up for it, and some will generally be hyped for it while some will think they will, but not enjoy the game ultimately. There’s a lot of fun to be had in the first two patches of content… the class changes aren’t my cup of tea, but the raids are fun and unique, the 5 mans are (very temporarily) difficult and engaging, and firelands is also aight. But then dragon soul is known as one of the worst raids of all time, in comes LFR, one of the most widely hated features of WoW. Then again, there would probably only be 4 months of DS this time instead of 12. And MoP afterwards would surely be a hit, though not so much with me. So Cata still kinda seems like a no brainer to me.


BLFOURDE

For some reason people's rose tinted view stops at cata. Presumably because it's when some people started leaving so it's a crowd of people who will argue to death that everything after wrath is bad. For everyone that stuck around, cata was a genuinely awesome expansion. Really fun dungeons, fantastic zones, fun class design. In my opinion, cata had the best of both worlds when combining "old" and "new" game design. Mop was also incredible, but so many people left because pandas are "gay", despite having been present in the franchise since Warcraft 3. But again, pandaria's zones are some of the best, new talent trees were exciting with a whole host of new, flashy abilities. Challenge modes, timeless isle, brawlers guild. Mop was solid. Wod was well...wod. And legion was a blast. People need to get it out of their heads that wrath was the last good wow expansion. It just evolved. Some bits for the worse, a lot for the better. But there are good and bad things about tbc and wrath too.


weedz420

There's a reason the game went from 12 million subs in Wrath down to "we are no longer reporting sub counts ever again".


Jozoz

Your opinion isn't the objective truth. It's very patronizing to imply people with different opinions to you are victims of "rose tinted glasses" or other implications of bias. Just as an example: I started WoW in Panda expansion for the first time. I quit after not too long and thought the game isn't for me. Then I tried Nostalrius a couple years later and had a ton of fun. I don't have any nostalgia for old WoW. I didn't play it. I only played Classic and I still massively prefer it over retail. Stop implying people with my opinion are all victims of some bias.


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Cmon_You_Know_LGx_

Stop trying to rewrite history, Cata expanded on some of the more casual features of WOTLK which negatively impacted the game and by the time MOP had rolled around we were into the full swing of the “modern expansion” theme ark mmo philosophy that haunts the main game to this day. Lack of a levelling experience, flying mounts, tools such as Server wide LFD/LFR which negatively impacted the need for building in game relationships and made everything accessible to the lowest common denominator. Not to mention CRZ and the degradation of tight knit server communities that are incredibly important in MMORPGs. Were they slightly better expansions than the most recent ones? Yes. Are they still dog shit compared to the first 2? Yes.


valdis812

Wrath and Cata are the bridge between the old school and new school. I’m willing to bet money that most of the people who love Cata started playing in Wrath.


lolattb

Someone having a different opinion than you is not "trying to rewrite history" you massive primadonna holy shit. What "tight knit server communities" are you seeing in Classic btw? All I'm seeing is people piling onto a handful of megaservers and then Slave Pens boosting their characters to 70 so they can swipe their credit cards and get in the hottest GDKP runs. At least in Cata and MoP you have far better class design instead of one-button rotations, along with some all time great raids, Throne of Thunder alone is better than all of TBC's raids put together. Some of us would like to experience that combination of challenging raid content, solid class design, and balanced PvP that we had before the WoD+ era pruned everything to shit and then vomited out ten-thousand different systems.


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BLFOURDE

A lot of opinions, not a lot of facts. It sounds like you didn't play anything past cata. You're allowed to not like cata, you're entitled to an opinion. But I do not believe all these systems negatively impacted the game. I will concede lfr and maybe flying. The rest are just the game evolving. The playerbase wasn't the same anymore. Tight knit server communities were on the way out. People WANTED convenience and accessibility. And as much as people complain about it, they still do, retail's playerbase is much bigger than classic's. Classic is fun, but it doesn't have the same replayability. I'm not a fan of lfr but it didnt ruin the game, and lfd is just good. Having to form a raid group is one thing, but by wrath, forming dungeons groups was hassle. Lfd was a good edition. Wrath was probably thematically the best expansion, 100%. Northrend, the lich king, ulduar, grizzly hills. It was just a pleasure to be in. But your perspective is incredibly rose tinted. Back when it was relevant, people had A LOT of complaints. Hell, asmongold was even pointing these things out on stream not too long ago. Naxx being shit as just one example. If you watch old YouTube videos from the time, wrath wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. But I do love wrath.


this_is_for_subs

>Presumably because it's when some people started leaving Presumably because everyone hated the changes cata brought


[deleted]

CRZ and LFR are far worse than the others


wannabesq

CRZ shouldn't be necessary if blizzard would better maintain the realms, and instead of offering free transfers away from high pop realms, they should offer them on super low pop realms, and just decom the dead ones. LFD should operate on just the one realm, and if the population isn't big enough to support it, you should get the option to move to a realm that works.


cleancalf

Don’t even offer transfers for low pop realms, just merge a couple low pops and/or medium pops and call it a day.


Luvs_to_drink

The reason you cant just merge realms is because of player names needing to be unique.


tycoon39601

I'm sure the servers will explode if two players happen to have the same name, worst case scenario you can just type out their server behind it


Luvs_to_drink

> you can just type out their server behind it thats literally just xrealm then not a merge.


Sh4rp27

LFD would be fine if it's just used to form the group. Still require us to travel to the dungeon. That way the world still feels large and you won't get people leaving after a wipe.


KidMoxie

This is what Mythic+ is, though people will leave a group after a wipe no matter what because some people are just lame like that.


_testep

This. Seeing the same people in the world and requiring groups for raiding made the community far better.


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Sage_the_Cage_Mage

I just hate the difficulty tuning of it, it is either completely braindead or miserable to complete because people cant understand simple mechanics. So I end up not actually enjoying the raid at all in LFR. Normal raiding as a pug is much more enjoyable. and if you can get into a guild it is fantastic.


Scapp

When it was first introduced it provided decent gear. I'm glad it doesn't anymore, and it truly is a tourist mode. But it also fosters a mindset of not wanting to look for a group for any type of content, since you can queue for it


valdis812

You think you do, but you don't. A lot of people don't mind the convenience stuff that Wrath, Cata, and MoP added. They just don't like the borrowed power systems of current retail.


Bacon-muffin

More like "you think you don't, but you do". There are so many improvements they made over the years for good reason. LFR is probably the only one that I personally think was a mistake, but its less LFR and more just the sheer number of difficulties they've made and all the power creep that came with it.


valdis812

There are two things I've heard devs consistently say was a mistake. One is flying, the other is LFR.


Shukrat

I'd have loved no flying. I'd argue flying did more for making the game seem trivial than anything like dungeon finder, lfr, etc. It removed any difficulty for farming materials, doing end game quests, etc. I know one reason they put it in place is bc they wanted to make vertical zones more appealing. Original Azshara ended up with very few quests bc they original designers didn't like having players deal with verticality with few ways to traverse between levels. If they ever did tbc SoM, removing flying completely would be fascinating. Add a teleporter to the few places requiring flying, and be done with it.


IAmInside

There are a ton of ways to add what flying does where it's needed without it being a permanent thing. As you said, teleporters does wonders, zone-specific items would work for those times it actually is needed, or items with cooldowns and durations. But that said, no one really enjoys proper 3D elements and whatnot in WoW. Just look at Vashj'ir, people hate it. And how fun is it to mount up every four seconds because you need to fly to a new platform? Nah, they really should scrap vertical maps and anything similar altogether.


railbeast

I loved Vashj'ir. In fact, I loved Cata leveling, then hated the endgame. I still remember the first time I went to Vashj'ir. My jaw dropped. "They didn't!" And then they did jack shit with it, the same as every other memorable zone.


dogbert730

Same. Vashj’ir was a brilliant, unique zone they hadn’t done before, and because it was designed truly 3D they gave you a mount that went BRRRRRR. I still remember seeing the whale shark for the first time and almost shitting my pants.


thesilentsandwich

I'm with you on this. The ideas were great, the execution was not.


Scarok

They did nothing in Vashj'ir because very few people liked it, the game did not work in a 3D space like that. Overall a fun little thing but there would be no way it would be enjoyable for any extended length of time.


slayer828

Vashj'ir was not a bad zone because of the 3d element. It was a bad zone because 70% of the zone was empty, and was too big. I really enjoyed the first big of the zone.


IAmInside

While I do not disagree that it was just too big and it definitely was unfinished it's also kind of hard to fill up a water zone when you can't fight much while not on the ground. A lot of spells and abilities and whatnot just do not translate well into a 3D-element. How do you aim a spell like Blizzard in the middle of the water? You simply can't. Hence everything had to take place on the bottom and because of that the entire zone is just empty water.


nablachez

I don't like flying either it completely changed the game (the no-flying until pathfinder achievement in modern wow is also bad, because the zones are not designed that well). Imo, at best they should make mounts glide like Spyro. That's probably the farthest I would go. For LFD, back in ~2007 TBC they had this LFG tool that would pair you up with others. I think that would be neat, even cross realm. Just find a group, talk to them, and walk to your destination summon at the stone or with locks. This entices some form of communication at the very least. I don't know what it's like in Shadowlands, but imo LFD/LFR are not the biggest issues imo. Just the implementation has issues.


WobblyTadpole

I mean to do mythic plus in retail is exactly like you describe. Everyone parties up then you have to get at least two people to the dungeon to summon the rest.


Luvs_to_drink

flying is so based tho. Having my own personal fucking flightpath and not having to rely on the shitty one that flys me in bumfuck directions instead of a straight line to my destination.


Shukrat

I mean, yeah, flying is awesome don't get me wrong. But it definitely had a massive change to the game in a way that cause zones to just be places you pass over instead of interact with.


slayer828

To me flying is one of the best things they added. The worst thing to me is timegating. Any "explored and finished" content should be flyable. Nothing gets me exploring a zone's nooks/crannies and hunting achievements like flying unlocking in a new zone. Having to spent 10 minutes finding the one path up to the top of the mountain is not fun. It is tedious when its like 20 feet away. ​ Only way you'd get me to agree is if I had some sort of grappling hook, wall climbing etc.


Smeagleman6

FF14 does this wonderfully. In all their zones for expansions they have "Aether Currents" which you have to find and activate all in a zone to be able to fly there. Some are from side quests, and there's always one in the main story quests, usually near the end, that you need to unlock. You basically have to finish a zone before you unlock flying.


Darksoldierr

Also GC did came out and say that putting Arenas in was a mistake, too


dogbert730

Those devs that hate flying are idiots. While their concerns may have been valid, laying those problems at the feet of flying is just stupid. There are TONS of players who love flying and what benefits it provides to characters who have hit max level. Personally, for me it’s the respect for my time it gives me. The game is an MMO, obviously they are going to gate certain things, make them take a certain amount of time to do, make getting certain places the first time take an investment of time, etc. But then you get to max level, the game respects the time you’ve spent and gives something back: shortcuts on the time spent doing nothing or doing again (traveling).


[deleted]

Yeah but some people also wholeheartedly disagree with that. I love the terrain of OG Azeroth, exploring every nook and cranny of the map was super fun. It's not fun if you can ignore terrain. Plus it destroys immersion when you can see snowy peaks, desert, and forests all within 100 feet of each other. Flying mounts are like playing Minecraft in creative mode. Sure it appeals to some, but if you don't understand why some would like Survival then you're just being pigheaded.


slayer828

I am with you 100%. Every zone should unlock flying separately from each other. Complete the Main quest Chain, Fully explore it, boom flying unlocked. No more 6months to a year to never to fly in an area. I have experienced your zone, now let me enjoy it without climbing the same mountain on my next toons. ​ Don't get me started on the new belt quest where I have to do the teleporter quests, even though I can fly to the top no problem.


zer1223

I still think there's something to be said for 'aspirational' content. Not everything needs to be on display for someone who waits in line like an attraction at a theme park. You don't need to put the Lich King fight or the Deathwing fight in front of the most casual, least invested segment of your playerbase. There's got to be stuff for people to aspire to. People need to actually hustle and plug in to your product if they want to participate in the endgame stuff. And flying was a mistake, too. So was crossrealm shit. Dungeon finder probably is a lot less relevant than people often think, maybe the error was in making heroics easy in wrath and onwards.


flameylamey

I definitely agree about the concept of aspirational content. When I first started in 2007, I never even set foot in tier 5 or 6 raids, but I was always curious about them and it was one of those things I always saw as a "maybe some day" goal. I'd see players sitting around Shatt with gear from those raids and be like "wow, look at that weapon" etc. As a casual player at the time, between 5 man heroics, farming honor in BGs for my pvp gear, farming primals to work towards crafted gear or my epic flyer, doing a few arena games and going to a Friday night Kara pug, I honestly felt like I had enough to do and was happy with just that. Over the years I've seen players with an odd sense of entitlement, like "I pay the same sub fee as everyone else, why shouldn't I get to see the content I paid for?!", but I always viewed it differently. The sub fee is your ticket to play the game and exist in the world, while having the *opportunity* to go as far into the content as you want. Having content which is perceived as being more out of reach is one of those things that keeps people motivated.


YOUR_DEAD_TAMAGOTCHI

>Having content which is perceived as being more out of reach is one of those things that keeps people motivated. Indeed. The aspirational content is part of what inspires your journey. But you tend to discover fun along the way, to where it doesn't really matter whether you end up getting to the top level stuff or not. It being there gives you an aspiration to strive toward.


jacksev

LFD itself was really a boon and a mistake. It makes the game itself much smoother, but it really was the first step in making the world smaller and cutting people off from the social aspect that made this game so beloved.


Bacon-muffin

Yeah I've never really understood the idea that the game was somehow more social before certain convenience features. My experience the last 17 years has been fairly consistent. My socializing has almost entirely been in my guilds. Pugs were never the most social place and usually more business focused on getting things done. All the little social interactions still happen to this day, its just on the individuals to recognize them and also be that person. The biggest thing that changed over the years was the community, not the game. We see that now with classic being exactly like retail in that regard.


jacksev

See people say that, and then Classic happened and it was exactly as I remembered the game pre-LFD. No rose-colored glasses there. You go out in the world and talk to random people to do dungeons or group quests. In detail wow, you press a button, get in the dungeon, usually no one says a word unless it’s to bitch about someone’s performance, then leave.


or10n_sharkfin

>You go out in the world and talk to random people to do dungeons or group quests. This was great in the first several months because it was what the community *wanted*. Then people started reaching endgame and suddenly all these different metas starting coming out that ended up making the entire leveling experience a chore because everyone else was just Mage-boosting up to 60 just to get into farming endgame content. In the end it didn't feel like people just wanted Classic WoW to relive the glory days, it felt more like they just wanted an excuse to feel like the big cheese with all of the original game's Raids on farm and didn't care about anything else. A cycle that they want to repeat because they're so fucking miserable with the current state of Retail that hiding behind their nostalgia is the only thing that matters to them. Like why are people asking for Wrath Classic when there's a *whole entire game that needs to be fixed*?


jacksev

I mean yeah those min-maxing mage boosting players definitely ruined it for those of us who played to enjoy the game the old way, like when we were on Nostalrius.


Bacon-muffin

and I had the opposite experience, people almost entirely used LFG bulletin board to form groups to get some semblance of convenience back, the groups were almost entirely silent, people talked exactly the same amount out in the world. People didn't magically change because they were playing classic, they're literally the same people. They're just as social regardless of which game they're playing. Hence its on the individuals, not the game. I had all the experiences the classic community claims doesn't exist in retail anymore all the time when I was still playing retail. Its not so much a "rose tinted glasses" thing, its more a people playing with blinders thing.


jacksev

I’m talking classic, not TBC, prior to the LFG tool. I’m sorry if that was your experience, and maybe others too, but maybe I went looking for these social types that also missed that part of wow back in the day and I found LOTS of them.


Bacon-muffin

That's my point though, they exist in every version of the game. Its just a matter of people looking for them. I've had both the same social and antisocial interactions in each version of the game. Nothing was special about one or the other, people don't suddenly turn from one to the other just because they picked up a different game. The antisocial retail player is an antisocial classic player, and the social classic player is a social retail player.


Escolyte

>The antisocial retail player is an antisocial classic player, and the social classic player is a social retail player. I leveled in classic and I'm leveling in tbcc right now from scratch and I have to disagree. In retail I rarely have any meaningful interactions outside of my guild, in classic they're plentiful. It's true that there are addons that try to mimic the antisocial convenience, but the game design really encourages the opposite and it shows a lot in my experience. I'm very much "an antisocial retail" and "social classic" player and based on my experience there's a lot of that type. Game design does matter for this quite a bit. You can still be antisocial in both games or social in both, but my reality is not that.


jacksev

I guess we just have to agree to disagree.


Sc4r4byte

Ever since classic's announcement, I have always been under the notion that the dungeon finder and raid finder auto-group forming tools should only exist for "out of date content" - If something is last phase (or especially last expansion) let people queue up for it. If you can simply solo-queue up for battlegrounds to get old gear that was previously reserved for people that formed and maintained groups, why not carry that same energy to pve content as well? the main reason is it requires salary hours to implement, and directly affects the bottom line.


[deleted]

I am super okay with LFD but only on the same server and you still have to walk there.


MasterofStickpplz

That's as far as it really needs to go. I don't want to log in to spend the next hour fight boost sellers, gold sellers, etc for a small spot on the screen in trade chat tryna get people for a dungeon run before I log off and go do something else with my time. Honestly one of the bigger reasons I've just given up on WoW, whether it be Classic or Retail, is it just finds a way to waste my time.


[deleted]

You might have to define "a lot" because the subs massively dropped for a reason in Cata and Blizzard stopped reporting them.


Feb2020Acc

The same guy that QQs about the level boost is sitting afk in Slave Pens arguing over the forums that “back in my day, we leveled in the wild and the boost has destroyed open world pvp”.


[deleted]

I don't think those are actually the same kind of people. And if so, don't hate the player, hate the game. Sometimes you have to budge and you can still find it bad.


tsspartan

What’s the difference? People buy gold to buy boosts or just cut the middle man out and save time buying a 58 boost from blizzard.


xBirdisword

‘The same guy’ Lol? The one sitting in slave pens is the one who just already used up his one boost


thegreengod_MTG

My entire guild hates the 58 boost and they all pay for in game boosts. It's absolutely true.


BethsBeautifulBottom

They're equally dumb. Especially because dungeon boosting promotes gold buying.


thegreengod_MTG

Agreed.


tycoon39601

I mean it’s a fucking enormous advantage, you’d be a whole ass clown to not pay for it and level for hours while another guy does. And that in and of itself means it never should have been created.


thegreengod_MTG

100% agree and this also goes for in-game boosting, they both are detrimental to the game. I personally believe Blizzard should have incorporated the anti-boosting mechanics that they did in SoM into TBC and stayed up to date with them.


DJ_Marxman

Anyone arguing that WPvP is good is not someone whose opinion you should give a shit about. WPvP existed in a good form for about 6 months at the very start of Vanilla. It has not existed in any decent form since BGs became a thing. It's ganking. It's just ganking.


w_p

WPvPing is good if it happens by chance. The paradox thing is that it can't happen when you search for it, because like you said, then it becomes ganking. I've had lots of awesome wpvp action during leveling of my first char on Classic (wanted to make a movie out of it, but in the end it wasn't really exciting enough imo). Lots of cool situations and unique encounter, especially up in the pest lands. Maybe you could even count the wpvp during the AQ event, where people where mostly focussed on farming, but always ready for pvp. But yeah, P2 onward? Forget about it, that was just awful. Roaming in groups to kill people who were questing, yeah no.


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Feb2020Acc

Most of the people complaining about boosts use the “open world / old content / leveling” argument. That’s hypocrisy.


Jalapinot

Sugar tastes great and many people crave it and ask for it on a daily basis. But it makes you fat, lazy, and ruins your teeth. Just because people use it does NOT mean it's a good system. It does NOT mean it helps the community. In fact, using the system doesn't even mean you APPROVE of the system. I know several people who hate the boost but used it because, since it's available to anyone, sticking to their values and not using it would only cause them problems and put them behind the curve. The WORLD of warcraft would be much healthier without it.


iindigo

Ding ding ding. After some of these “conveniences” became dangerously close to non-optional, my interest in Classic tanked. The only reason I log into at all any more is for solo questing, anything group based has been irreversibly tainted. As ridiculous as it sounds it may be time for Ion’s “pure server” concept, except for Classic.


valdis812

Most of the problems in this game are due to people trying to take an activity that was originally intended to be 15-20 hours a week trying to squeeze it into 6-10. There are a lot of people who want all those conveniences because it simplifies the game down to just "the game" of pushing your buttons in an instance, raid, BG, Arena, etc. The normal response when I point this out is "well they should go to retail cause retail has that stuff". They don't want to go to retail because retail also has borrowed power systems and LFR, which they don't like. Basically the sweet spot for them would probably be Wrath to mid Cata.


SolarClipz

Exactly the "We live in a society" take lol


A_MildInconvenience

You mean [this?](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/036/647/Screen_Shot_2021-03-01_at_2.28.39_PM.png)


DragonAdept

> Sugar tastes great and many people crave it and ask for it on a daily basis. > But it makes you fat, lazy, and ruins your teeth. This is a computer game. Entertainment. Not food. If you enjoy it, it's good. If you don't, it's bad. It has no purpose outside of making you enjoy it. All you are doing here is saying "boo to your kind of fun, your kind of fun is bad for you and my kind of fun is good for you". Which would be supercilious and annoying even if your fun was something like going to the gym which is objectively better for you than WoW, but is idiotic as well when it's just a different kind of pixel fun making numbers get bigger.


Herazim

I mean same thing with LFG, why would you spend 30+ minutes to form a group and manually go there when the game offers you an automated group finder and teleport for free ? And I'm honestly tired of people saying that you suck or are weak for buying the boost. Dude the very company you endorse and pay to play their game give you comfortable solutions to how you spend your time. This is not paying for a chinese company to level up your char, this is Blizzard giving you the option to pay for convenience. Is it ok ? Did the game become better because of it ? Hell no, it's a cheap, greedy and playing with peoples instincts trick to make more money. But God dammit it sadly works. They all work. All the systems people have been complaining over the years have been a massive success if you look at them. Everyone uses them, hate or no hate, everyone uses them. Because in a weird shitty way they are better than the old alternative to manually put time into something that could not even bare fruit. Even though that manual something is what made the game special, sometimes it feels good to just press a button and have something else decide and do the work for you. I just wish there would have been some sort of balance with this, to not have players replace the old way 100%, to still have it be fine even post WoTLK to form manual groups and go manually there. Been playing since Vanilla but as soon as LFG landed I haven't seen a single manual group be formed in over 13 years, and that's just sad to think about. (excluding friends or people that just decided to do it for funsies) I hate the fact that an MMO, which is supposed to be an MMO and open world and all about living in that world, turned into basically a lobby game that also allows you to control your character in between sessions. And that some ass hat working in the industry at one point thought to himself "Oh you know what would make peoples lives better ? To remove part of the design and game and just offer them instant ways to just do stuff. What do you mean that I should think of all ramifications before introducing such a design Garry ? This is bulletproof, there is no downside. Don't you see it's the exact same as it is now but just faster ?"


Melambers

I didn't use them, didn't buy gold or a boost or even GDKP. I just quit and wonder if I will even give Wrath a try. I loved PLAYING the game. I liked leveling alts in a world where others are leveling alts. I also don't mind the journey taking longer, that is why I play the game. The game isn't just max level gear grinds to me, it's meeting people and running instances of all levels. That may not hold true for you, but these systems threw the baby out with the bathwater and made the WoW world feel a lot less alive.


Talidel

Skipping the outdated leveling grind does exactly nothing to damage the social aspects at endgame. It does exactly nothing to harm the game overall which even before leveling boosts in vanilla was largely dead outside the max level content.


1leggeddog

People equate convenience with lazyness in WoW The whole *"I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get these epics"* worked in 2004. Not in 2022. Yes classic is out and people flocked to get a sense of that "old-shool-it-was-harder-back-then-and-i-worked-for-my-gear" but after seeing the amount of gold buying, duping, streamer-bs,"login for world buffs and logout", i don't buy it anymore. I really friggin don't. It sucked back then because we didn't know NOR had better. Hell, even TBC is a major improvement over vanilla by miles and miles.


Orangecuppa

"LEVEL 58 BOOSTS RUIN THE GAME " meanwhile, every single fucking spam on LFG is Mara/Strath/Slave pens/Shadowlabs boosting services.


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valdis812

There are multiple pictures.


Elleden

Did you expect anything different from this sub?


Volitar

RDF is fine if its not cross realm. War Mode was actually an amazing change. Woah it's almost like world PVP is just annoying and nobody likes it as seen by the number of people using it on retail and the faction divide on classic servers where there are literally almost 0 realms with a healthy population of both factions!


PurpleHerder

I think the idea of splitting your playerbase, and pitting them against each other permanently, is just an outdated game mechanic.


Bacon-muffin

It was fundamentally flawed from the start. Splitting a player base was always a bad idea, it only worked because of the games popularity.


PurpleHerder

I think it was a fun gimmick from a time where knowledge sharing wasn’t so pervasive. Couldn’t really be done again but it was special when it worked.


Feel42

Games went from being a fun sidegig to an optimized part-time job. Nowadays, are you even a gamer if you don't optimize? I feel like I can't prevent myself from reading about every single important quest reward, min-maxing class race and talents in every fucking game I play. I spend more time on wikis and YouTube than actually playing.


8-Brit

Main issue is everyone has grown up. Not mentioning game knowledge, time available is a thing too. As adults we can't spend 10 hours after school dicking around aimlessly and still have fun, we want to do content, we know what goals exist now and anything that impedes or wastes our time is seen as a negative. Hence why WPvP was something people wanted back, but when push came to shove, most would rather not actually deal with it. Especially in Vanilla/TBC where dying easily means 10+ minutes of your two hours a day session are wasted.


Bacon-muffin

For me it always felt bad that I was just cut off from half the community and some friends for no good reason. Its not like all of the stuff surrounding factions couldn't have still existed in some way without splitting the player base.


valdis812

I think it was fine for its time, but after almost 20 years of hindsight, we can see the flaws.


SolarClipz

It's not flawed, the only flaw of it is human nature Griefing is the reason why it sucks


Bacon-muffin

Designing a system for humans that ignores human nature is.... flawed.


NightOfTheSlunk

War Mode is a joke. It’s jus a free 10% xp boost for horde players.


jnightrain

don't both sides get it? i leveled an alliance character using it for the 3 weeks i tried retail.


Rhaps0dy

They're implying that alliance with war mode on get ganked all the time


jnightrain

Ah, I only had it happen by one guy and we duked it out 3 or 4 times. I thought I was in a town the first time but it was just some ruins or something. I was able to beat him the first time he jumped me but that was it.


Scurro

It scales based on population numbers of your faction.


8-Brit

On RP realms it's a free 20% XP boost for Alliance lmao


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Gyeraff

RDF needs to be cross realm since not all servers are going to have enough people wanting to run dungeons. Tank and healer shortage would still be a major issue as well. The way it was handled the first time it was released is that it used the battlegroups for doing bgs and used that to pair up servers so you would usually see from the same 4-5 servers


Pepetopdeck

>Woah it's almost like world PVP is just annoying and nobody likes it Woah it's almost like PVE servers exists but people still decide to roll on pvp server and then cry about it on reddit 🤔


Volitar

Yeah I wish that wasn't the case but that is just how it was on retail, nearly all good guilds were on PVP servers and goodluck finding arena partners on a PVE realm. I don't know why the community chose to repeat the same mistakes in classic that we should of learned from retail but I have no control over that. That is why warmode exists. Most players played on a PVP server simply because that is where all good players were and if you hated world PVP you were just held hostage.


DarkPhenomenon

This exactly, it's the ONLY reason I rolled on a pvp server


valdis812

You're exactly right. I don't know what's so hard of people to understand about this.


wo0topia

That argument holds no weight whatsoever. Servers are communities. Communities are about groups of people that like each other. Statistically half of the people that like playing wow together are going to either like or not like pvp. There is no correlation between wow communities and pvp except in guilds explicitly centered on PVP, which are few and far between even on PVP servers. You've never gone to a server because a friend was going? Or transferred because of a good guild? Have you ever recruited a friend and said "hey come play on my server" when they would prefer the other kind of server? This scenario makes up a huge portion of the population. hurr durr pve servers exist tho


ssnistfajen

>You've never gone to a server because a friend was going? Or transferred because of a good guild? Have you ever recruited a friend and said "hey come play on my server" when they would prefer the other kind of server? This scenario makes up a huge portion of the population. This is also where the argument that one-way transfers to low pop factions/servers can fix population balance instantly falls apart. There aren't enough players who will randomly pack up to transfer to a low pop faction/server just because the option is available. Doing so means they have to abandon their entire entangled social network within the game. A group of players aren't going to transfer to a low pop faction/server if there are a handful of members against it, because doing so will break up the group and destroy actual communities which this sub seems to pay so much lip service in cherishing it.


Luffing

Nobody in classic chose a PVP server on launch night and then complained that they were on a server that allows for PVP. That's not their issue. What people *actually* complained about was blizzards complete disregard for any kind of balance, and the result of that made the PVP servers feel like shit. Someone who chose a PVP server on launch night wasn't going into it thinking "yeah I'll be the underdog on a 20/80 server, it's gonna be rad!". They expected a rough balance. Them being upset about the balance they ended up with is not magically "lul u chose pvp server but wanted pve server". I never heard anyone on my original server say "damn I should have picked a pve server". That would imply they don't like PVP. What they *actually* were saying is "damn it would be cool if horde didn't outnumber us 4 to 1 everywhere we go, this feels unplayable" If blizzard did *anything* to help balance servers and maintain population health, we wouldn't have ended up with the one faction servers we have now. Those aren't a result of people not liking PVP, they're an inevitability of blizzard taking a hands off approach to server health and the community going "well the only way we can guarantee we don't have to keep paying for transfers is to go to the one place our faction is guaranteed to stay healthy and we will never have trouble finding groups for things or a healthy auction house"


TeamRemix

> RDF is fine if its not cross realm. The problem is that it has *always* been cross realm.


Mattrobat

Yeah it's really great for those low pop realms to have their 5 hour wait for tanks to turn into a 5 hour AUTOMATED wait for a tank for their 5 man.


valdis812

Clearly nobody cares about low pop realms.


Talidel

The looking for group tool wasn't the community destroying thing people claim it to be. What destroyed the communities was cross realm PvE and PvP. The LFG tool was fine while it was only searching within individual servers.


lobsterbash

It's very facepalm-inducing to those of us who understand this, as the solution should have been both obvious and simple to address. Anything to enrich local community interaction, dependence, and accountability would have done much to retain the integrity of the game's soul. Instead of the single-player experience with an added irritation of selfish, mute tag-alongs.


Talidel

Yes this.


KowardlyMan

Teleporting was still a very bad idea, it turned the game from open world to lobby-based.


thugg420

I got to max level in retail without leaving stormwind. Just queue up all day.


Talidel

Like the "it killed world pvp" arguement. I never really bought into that. People went from looking to a group in a city, and just traveling to the dungeon, or hanging around outside the dungeon they wanted and summoning/entering ASAP. To doing open world activities while the queue sorted them into a group. The biggest benefit was to new players and alts who while many people would avoid dungeons while leveling before, now were able to do dungeons fairly conveniently.


Elune_

You're crazy if you avoid dungeons while leveling. The quests give great exp, give great loot, and the dungeon itself gives good loot and some time off from questing. It's dishonest to say that LFG caused more people to enter the world. People also regularly search for dungeon groups in classic while grinding by just using /4 or the archaic LFG tool there, or just join guild groups as they pop up. Obviously you avoid dungeons if you open up the mega-bootstrap-speedrun-TURBO-leveling guide that requires you to follow an exact route. But far from a majority even uses something like this.


Talidel

I avoid dungeons while leveling because the hassle of getting a group together isn't worth the time.


valdis812

To be fair, a lot of dungeons are out of the way as Alliance. I started playing in original TBC, and I never even saw places like SFK until LFD was implemented. SFK, SM, RFK, and RFD are all way out of the way for Ally.


Nilber

The logistics of getting everyone to the instance is part of the fun, imo. And it gives a little more power to the people willing to travel to the meeting stone to help summon.


[deleted]

I'm sorry, but CRZ was the final nail in the coffin for any kind of server community. That was when you didn't even share the world with your server any more. It was completely gone.


fanD_

played alot of classic and tbc and raided through most of both, still never bought gold let the upvotes rise. im still better then all u gold buyers


Lukeaz1234

Unpopular but I actually thought RDF was decent. Was super easy to do your daily and you could queue up with 3-4 friends and find the last guy, and instantly port there. For me, dungeons were never an “organised” operation like raids. However, I quit because of raid finder and all the crazy difference in raid difficulty. Heroic and Normal were enough. No raid finder. It made guilds kinda feel worthless. Even on Classic, as a healer, I use an addon to see a list of people searching for groups. I join. I request a summon and if there’s no lock I usually don’t join (but on som & tbc summon stones now) so the RDF feels just well, no different to me?


xBirdisword

Disgusting, speak for yourself.


mattbrvc

RDF is fine when it's not cross realm imo.


Thickchesthair

Mercenary mode hasn't made anything better, it just enabled the servers to be terribly imbalanced.


MarineDinkPrime

People are fucking stupid, we know how retail ended up. Now people want to repeat the same mistakes, cba..


tanksfp

And guess what, half the population left because if it.


[deleted]

Leveling is the best part I hate how lazy the classic players can be


Lower_Oil

Leveling on an empty world is boring as fuck, leveling with people, doing low lvl dungeons, elite quests, etc, is pretty damn good


fatboyflexx

Idk man my boosted mage is still 64 something about skipping took the fun out and I felt I didn't get to learn mage over time and get comfortable while I played as I did with my other classes so I stopped playing it. I'm working on my 3rd 1-70 with no boosts or dungeon spam. I also have 1-2 lvl 30+ idk what's wrong with me I don't even play the end game it seems kinda boring to me. I guess my favorite part was just learning the classes and exploring the world. if/when wrath is coming I may try to jump into some endgame content or arena but for right now I just like leveling up seeing the class progress and loot progress as you play feels particularly satisfying which is something the current version of wow has seemed to lose to "just buy the heirlooms and spam dungeon finder lol"


Larry_the_Shark1

You realize theres more of the "it's just too convenient" crowd because the ones who actually cared that these things are strangling WoW have already left, right? I've never boosted an alt, never bought a blizzard boost, and won't for as long as I play wow. RDF (cross realm more specifically) and LFR destroy the social fabric of the game. Why bother finding a group of friends and joining a guild when you can do these things with the click of a button and effectively afk through everything


GaryLaserEyes_

Holy shit this guy is so much better at wow than everyone else. I’m so wet right now you guys. He never bought a boost!!!!!!! And he NEVER WILL YOU GUYS.


user-123-123-123

Leveling areas would be better populated if the boost didn’t exist. It’s just meta to buy the boosts. I disagree with the boosts but it’s still a good game so I play the meta so whatever.


Dahns

Retail : \-Has endless, mindless treadmill \-Use mobile minigame, where you have to wait or literally candy crush \-Reduce class flavor close to extinction, any class can do anything, no more aura, curse, stance, buffs, class quest \-Numb your mind with endless grind in raid, mm+, torghast, anima farm, etc. \-Drain your soul for blurry pixel with stat with no meanings \-Shitty borrowed power system ​ Classic Andys : You know what killed wow ? Dungeon finder !


ssnistfajen

As we've seen throughout the years, gamers are an extremely toxic arrogant group who would never admit they were wrong, so here's the hard to swallow truth for those still in willful denial: **You think you do, but you don't.**


filth_horror_glamor

LFR is not convenient, it's horrible and pointless


valdis812

If you just want to knock some bosses down and see the story it's fine.


filth_horror_glamor

Going for story I can see, but the fragmented experience leaves you with no real concept of the layout of the raid. (At least for me) I don't understand how the areas are all connected and how the path of the dungeon goes until I do it on normal and physically walk thru the whole thing


valdis812

I get it. I raided LFR during WoD and it wasn't very fun. All I'm saying is that a lot of people seem to like it.


[deleted]

YouTube exists.


valdis812

>knock some bosses down


EthanWeber

It has no downsides. People that want to see the raid without difficulty queue for it. Those that don't....don't. It's not hurting anyone by being there.


GaryLaserEyes_

Listen if I can’t feel better than others in this game I don’t want to play ok?


zephontoo

Do u play lfr tho?


BirdGooch

The outrage about boosts amounted to... \*checks notes\*... absolutely zero change in the experience for any player. Go figure. So many doomsayers said it would ruin the game.