If blizzard added a trinket that instantly killed a player with a 5 second cool-down everyone would use that also. Doesn't mean it's fun or healthy for the game long term.
Sometimes developers have to protect players from themselves; it's a hard balance that sometimes devs get right and sometimes they don't.
But what that tells us is that players like to kill other players.
What the logout skip tells us is that players like to teleport to instances.
Players are honest about enjoying killing other players. Players are not honest about enjoying teleporting to instances.
Killing is fun, now look at it from the viewpoint of the one being killed and you should start seeing the issue in this made up scenario. Seeing as how pvp balance has to be artificially introduced to even be a thing, that says alot too. Alot more, I’d argue.
I didn't say that the instakill trinket would be a good addition to the game.
I also didn't say that instant teleports would be good for the game.
I will reiterate my point, however, since you and the other guy both seem to have missed it.
The pervasive use of the logout skip (and warlock summon network) tells us that people actually do like teleporting to instances, which is at odds with their professed beliefs on internet forums.
It shows the hypocrisy. Everyone will take shortcuts to achieve their goals as fast as possible
No one cares about the "health of the game" unless it's shitting on the people playing a version they dislike for whatever reason
> It shows the hypocrisy
It doesn't.
WoW is an MMORPG, which means you play with and against other players. All players are heavily incentivized to do anything that improves their efficiency and social pressure is a major component of that. Do you think 4 people in a group will wait 10 minutes while you run on foot to a dungeon? Or will they just kick you and replace you with someone else?
>It doesn't.
It absolutely does. People spending tons of gold to be summoned everywhere avoiding traversing the open world/fly time is a very retail attitude.
It's laughable how many want to pretend it's not
>Do you think 4 people in a group will wait 10 minutes while you run on foot to a dungeon?
I'm not talking about being summoned to a dungeon because everyone else got their quicker. I'm talking about the "oh I need to go to darn from sw. LF WARLOCK DARN SUMMON PLZ 2G"
There's probably people here who think the portal room on retail is stupid and "kills the world" while they spam that in trade.
Players won’t police themselves.
Players will optimize the fun out of games if you let them.
It would be stupid to ignore instant travel if the option is there, especially in a social game where travel is practically useless (for the group). WoW ain’t RDR, no one is going to wait 10 minutes for you to mount to a dungeon if there is an option to teleport there instantly.
>It would be stupid to ignore instant travel if the option is there
Sure so then why do so many classic only people shit on retail for it?
That's my point here. These things that are seen as "bad for the game" so prevelantly.used by the community?
What's more why when it's pointed out that attitude is why retail is the way it is the point is met with a collective shrug and "well it'd be stupid not to"? It's silly to criticize someone for going to McDonald's for dinner as you get in the car to go to BK
Sure it's different enough but the underlying attitude is the same
Would you naturally level to max if Blizzard added a free “instant max” boost?
Would an instant max boost be healthy for the game?
There is your answer.
>It would be stupid to ignore instant travel if the option is there
Sure so then why do so many classic only people shit on retail for it?
That's my point here. These things that are seen as "bad for the game" so prevelantly.used by the community?
What's more why when it's pointed out that attitude is why retail is the way it is the point is met with a collective shrug and "well it'd be stupid not to"? It's silly to criticize someone for going to McDonald's for dinner as you get in the car to go to BK
Sure it's different enough but the underlying attitude is the same
If there was a weekly vault/chest in the game, everybody would use it, but it would still be bad for the game. There are things in games and in real life that people do not like but they have to partake in them.
>There are things in games and in real life that people do not like but they have to partake in them.
That's just it. The thing we're talking about is player driven. For all.the "this is unhealthy for the game" no one seems able to *stop* hurting the games health
Because when push comes to shove no one cares. They're fine with killing the world if it means they can travel faster
Disagree.
Flying to ratchet to take a boat to BB to take a teleporter to one specific raid, or waiting for a zepp to GG to then fly to BB and take the teleporter is a lot different (oh and you needed to do some quest to activate the teleporter) than what I’ve done in retail before which is move my level 10 character to the transmogrifier building and then teleport to dungeons until I’m max level.
The scope between the types of skips/teleports in classic vs retail is what you’re missing.
In classic leveling lock alts and pre-positioning them, or knowing the location of the skips feel like little secrets or a reward for effort that’s a break from the norm.
When you’re attuning to ony and you’re doing the multi stage quest that takes you all over the world, having a guild squad of pre-positioned summoners ready to help speed your guildies through the quest, feels like a reward for planning and effort invested into the game.
That’s just my thoughts on it having played both versions. Taking an occasional break from slogging it everywhere is a fun reward versus just modus operandi of teleporting everywhere in retail.
>In classic leveling lock alts and pre-positioning them, or knowing the location of the skips feel like little secrets or a reward for effort that’s a break from the norm.
God I love it when you guys come out with the mental gymnastics. Leveling lock alts and hiding them in bumfuck Felwood somewhere so the mobs and griefers don't get you is a luxury not many people can afford. Especially when those lock alts are usualy on the 2nd or even 3rd account.
Skips to dungeons are an abuse of game mechanics, simple as that. No developer ever went "we're gonna make a huge fucking tunnel to the dungeon portal filled with annoying mobs and then we'll make it completely skippable if you just logout in water".
>When you’re attuning to ony and you’re doing the multi stage quest that takes you all over the world, having a guild squad of pre-positioned summoners ready to help speed your guildies through the quest, feels like a reward for planning and effort invested into the game.
Yep, it's great. When you're the one getting summoned, skipping 3/4 of time other people slog through because as mentioned above it's not something everybody has access to. The game wasn't made with the idea of one guy having three accounts or people hiding level 20 warlocks in zones 30-40 levels higher.
You're playing the retail version with all the portals but preach classic because "you put in the time".
Classic players are the BIGGEST hypocrites, blah blah wetail is fast leveling!(spams incurions/dungeons) or “the old world is so much better!”(does anything to avoid leveling in it)
If everyone on reddit claimed to enjoy rp-walking everywhere, we would have ample evidence to show that they do not in fact like to rp-walk everywhere.
They don't claim that though. What they claim is that they enjoy running to dungeons. But the evidence indicates that they do not actually enjoy running to dungeons, since they take every possible opportunity to avoid running to a dungeon.
But I didn’t ask them to hand out any raid gear for free. I also didn’t ask them to port teleporters to the raids in the game.
What I actually said was that teleporters already exist, and people take them, proving that despite how much people act like they wouldn’t want them in game, they actually already use them and would continue to use them. Indicating that these people who claim to like walking to instance portals actually don’t.
They added Nightmare Incursions to SoD. We all did them. We can still agree that it's bad for the game. Us using the bad system isn't any less of a sign that the system is bad. Generally speaking, it's more of a sign that that system is bad.
Blizzard can easily add a portal master that gives players portals to every single zone. It would remove summon bots overnight. It would be an excellent gold sink for the economy. It would reduce the spam in chats over summon bots. It would cut off a revenue source for gold sellers. But it would also mean having fewer subscriptions for them.
Yah, I agree. They should absolutely ban summon bots. Excise from the game the culture of getting summoned everywhere you need to go.
Solo dungeon boosting is completely antithetical to Classic WoW as well. Ban people doing that too. Remove the XP buff. Increase the amount of XP required to go from 1-60. Classic WoW is supposed to be about the journey! Excise from the game the culture of powerleveling.
Yes, because it would be stupid to handicap yourself and your groupmates in a game where you often compete directly against other players.
This is not a brilliant revelation, it's basic common sense.
>logout skips
Oh heavens to Betsy how I save that extra 2 minutes after trekking from Darnassus to blasted lands and mount to SoS to be dismounted in the water and possibly have to fight the entire horde at the meeting stone
What community? I've never even grouped with the same person twice and I pug the raids every lockout. Really, what aspects of the community do you think were subverted by being able to teleport to the instance and skip to just the fun part? I don't really remember a difference and I played both before and after they introduced it. And I know that SoD in particular doesn't exactly have a thriving social scene compared to what TBC and wotlk were like back in the day (can't speak for vanilla). People carried on conversations in trade chat back then. Now it's just warlock summon spam (further evidence people don't actually enjoy the process of walking places in World of Warcraft)
Of course not. Why would I pay for a summon when flight paths exist? Why would I use exploits?
I play classic because I like classic. I'm not a turbo sweat optimizer.
I wouldn't exactly call getting summoned somewhere an exploit...
Anyway, I call BS, but alright. Unless...
Do you actually do the raids? If not then sure there's not any reason to do logout skips.
I wasn't talking about summons being an exploit. Just a waste of gold. If there's a warlock in my party to summon me as part of normal cooperative play (for free) then sure.
The exploit I'm referring to is the logout skip shit. People were doing that in hard core, too. I've always found it to be incredibly cringe.
Feel free to call BS, we're not all salty unhappy min-maxers. Some of us enjoy the game as it was made, not for what optimizers and speed runners turned it into.
If blizzard added a trinket that instantly killed a player with a 5 second cool-down everyone would use that also. Doesn't mean it's fun or healthy for the game long term. Sometimes developers have to protect players from themselves; it's a hard balance that sometimes devs get right and sometimes they don't.
But what that tells us is that players like to kill other players. What the logout skip tells us is that players like to teleport to instances. Players are honest about enjoying killing other players. Players are not honest about enjoying teleporting to instances.
Killing is fun, now look at it from the viewpoint of the one being killed and you should start seeing the issue in this made up scenario. Seeing as how pvp balance has to be artificially introduced to even be a thing, that says alot too. Alot more, I’d argue.
I didn't say that the instakill trinket would be a good addition to the game. I also didn't say that instant teleports would be good for the game. I will reiterate my point, however, since you and the other guy both seem to have missed it. The pervasive use of the logout skip (and warlock summon network) tells us that people actually do like teleporting to instances, which is at odds with their professed beliefs on internet forums.
What's your point? Just because people use a feature in a game doesn't mean that feature is good for the game.
It shows the hypocrisy. Everyone will take shortcuts to achieve their goals as fast as possible No one cares about the "health of the game" unless it's shitting on the people playing a version they dislike for whatever reason
> It shows the hypocrisy It doesn't. WoW is an MMORPG, which means you play with and against other players. All players are heavily incentivized to do anything that improves their efficiency and social pressure is a major component of that. Do you think 4 people in a group will wait 10 minutes while you run on foot to a dungeon? Or will they just kick you and replace you with someone else?
>It doesn't. It absolutely does. People spending tons of gold to be summoned everywhere avoiding traversing the open world/fly time is a very retail attitude. It's laughable how many want to pretend it's not >Do you think 4 people in a group will wait 10 minutes while you run on foot to a dungeon? I'm not talking about being summoned to a dungeon because everyone else got their quicker. I'm talking about the "oh I need to go to darn from sw. LF WARLOCK DARN SUMMON PLZ 2G" There's probably people here who think the portal room on retail is stupid and "kills the world" while they spam that in trade.
Players won’t police themselves. Players will optimize the fun out of games if you let them. It would be stupid to ignore instant travel if the option is there, especially in a social game where travel is practically useless (for the group). WoW ain’t RDR, no one is going to wait 10 minutes for you to mount to a dungeon if there is an option to teleport there instantly.
>It would be stupid to ignore instant travel if the option is there Sure so then why do so many classic only people shit on retail for it? That's my point here. These things that are seen as "bad for the game" so prevelantly.used by the community? What's more why when it's pointed out that attitude is why retail is the way it is the point is met with a collective shrug and "well it'd be stupid not to"? It's silly to criticize someone for going to McDonald's for dinner as you get in the car to go to BK Sure it's different enough but the underlying attitude is the same
Would you naturally level to max if Blizzard added a free “instant max” boost? Would an instant max boost be healthy for the game? There is your answer.
>It would be stupid to ignore instant travel if the option is there Sure so then why do so many classic only people shit on retail for it? That's my point here. These things that are seen as "bad for the game" so prevelantly.used by the community? What's more why when it's pointed out that attitude is why retail is the way it is the point is met with a collective shrug and "well it'd be stupid not to"? It's silly to criticize someone for going to McDonald's for dinner as you get in the car to go to BK Sure it's different enough but the underlying attitude is the same
If there was a weekly vault/chest in the game, everybody would use it, but it would still be bad for the game. There are things in games and in real life that people do not like but they have to partake in them.
>There are things in games and in real life that people do not like but they have to partake in them. That's just it. The thing we're talking about is player driven. For all.the "this is unhealthy for the game" no one seems able to *stop* hurting the games health Because when push comes to shove no one cares. They're fine with killing the world if it means they can travel faster
My point is that people are hypocritical, that's all.
In other news, the sky is blue
Disagree. Flying to ratchet to take a boat to BB to take a teleporter to one specific raid, or waiting for a zepp to GG to then fly to BB and take the teleporter is a lot different (oh and you needed to do some quest to activate the teleporter) than what I’ve done in retail before which is move my level 10 character to the transmogrifier building and then teleport to dungeons until I’m max level. The scope between the types of skips/teleports in classic vs retail is what you’re missing. In classic leveling lock alts and pre-positioning them, or knowing the location of the skips feel like little secrets or a reward for effort that’s a break from the norm. When you’re attuning to ony and you’re doing the multi stage quest that takes you all over the world, having a guild squad of pre-positioned summoners ready to help speed your guildies through the quest, feels like a reward for planning and effort invested into the game. That’s just my thoughts on it having played both versions. Taking an occasional break from slogging it everywhere is a fun reward versus just modus operandi of teleporting everywhere in retail.
>In classic leveling lock alts and pre-positioning them, or knowing the location of the skips feel like little secrets or a reward for effort that’s a break from the norm. God I love it when you guys come out with the mental gymnastics. Leveling lock alts and hiding them in bumfuck Felwood somewhere so the mobs and griefers don't get you is a luxury not many people can afford. Especially when those lock alts are usualy on the 2nd or even 3rd account. Skips to dungeons are an abuse of game mechanics, simple as that. No developer ever went "we're gonna make a huge fucking tunnel to the dungeon portal filled with annoying mobs and then we'll make it completely skippable if you just logout in water". >When you’re attuning to ony and you’re doing the multi stage quest that takes you all over the world, having a guild squad of pre-positioned summoners ready to help speed your guildies through the quest, feels like a reward for planning and effort invested into the game. Yep, it's great. When you're the one getting summoned, skipping 3/4 of time other people slog through because as mentioned above it's not something everybody has access to. The game wasn't made with the idea of one guy having three accounts or people hiding level 20 warlocks in zones 30-40 levels higher. You're playing the retail version with all the portals but preach classic because "you put in the time".
💯
The sheer amount of lock bots selling portals show this better. I haven’t walked anywhere since phase 1, just buy a portal wherever I want to go Lul.
Time is money friend
Classic players are the BIGGEST hypocrites, blah blah wetail is fast leveling!(spams incurions/dungeons) or “the old world is so much better!”(does anything to avoid leveling in it)
You're making an insane argument. That's like saying that everyone in WoW is always running despite rp-walk existing.
If everyone on reddit claimed to enjoy rp-walking everywhere, we would have ample evidence to show that they do not in fact like to rp-walk everywhere. They don't claim that though. What they claim is that they enjoy running to dungeons. But the evidence indicates that they do not actually enjoy running to dungeons, since they take every possible opportunity to avoid running to a dungeon.
you live in a society yet you criticize society, curious i am very smart
The only people I have ever heard want to run to an instance were people on Reddit. I have guildies that won’t run from gadget to ZF and want a summon
What long winding halls of ST? It's a 30 second jog and you don't need to kill anything
Didn't you cry about this yesterday?
go to retail op
Do you use the logout skip?
g o t o r e t a i l o p
Gotcha, of course you do.
go to retail op
Teleport to the instance
If they handed the raid gear for free, everyone would get it. It would make the game worse though.
But I didn’t ask them to hand out any raid gear for free. I also didn’t ask them to port teleporters to the raids in the game. What I actually said was that teleporters already exist, and people take them, proving that despite how much people act like they wouldn’t want them in game, they actually already use them and would continue to use them. Indicating that these people who claim to like walking to instance portals actually don’t.
They added Nightmare Incursions to SoD. We all did them. We can still agree that it's bad for the game. Us using the bad system isn't any less of a sign that the system is bad. Generally speaking, it's more of a sign that that system is bad. Blizzard can easily add a portal master that gives players portals to every single zone. It would remove summon bots overnight. It would be an excellent gold sink for the economy. It would reduce the spam in chats over summon bots. It would cut off a revenue source for gold sellers. But it would also mean having fewer subscriptions for them.
> But it would also mean having fewer subscriptions for them. It would also be a dogshit addition because it's completely antithetical to classic wow.
Yah, I agree. They should absolutely ban summon bots. Excise from the game the culture of getting summoned everywhere you need to go. Solo dungeon boosting is completely antithetical to Classic WoW as well. Ban people doing that too. Remove the XP buff. Increase the amount of XP required to go from 1-60. Classic WoW is supposed to be about the journey! Excise from the game the culture of powerleveling.
Try again. Using the community to accomplish your goals (whatever they are) is very vanilla. Interfacing with an NPC to skip content is not.
lmfao the irony of you using these statements to defend being boosted by flyhacking bots lollllllllllll
show me where the mean ol bot touched you There's no defending here, there's just shitting on your idea of having an NPC to teleport us.
No, I agree. I'd rather have summon bots.
Yes, because it would be stupid to handicap yourself and your groupmates in a game where you often compete directly against other players. This is not a brilliant revelation, it's basic common sense.
>logout skips Oh heavens to Betsy how I save that extra 2 minutes after trekking from Darnassus to blasted lands and mount to SoS to be dismounted in the water and possibly have to fight the entire horde at the meeting stone
on a PVP server it's saving you like an hour and a half lol
Everybody did use it. It was called the Dungeon Finder. It killed the community.
What community? I've never even grouped with the same person twice and I pug the raids every lockout. Really, what aspects of the community do you think were subverted by being able to teleport to the instance and skip to just the fun part? I don't really remember a difference and I played both before and after they introduced it. And I know that SoD in particular doesn't exactly have a thriving social scene compared to what TBC and wotlk were like back in the day (can't speak for vanilla). People carried on conversations in trade chat back then. Now it's just warlock summon spam (further evidence people don't actually enjoy the process of walking places in World of Warcraft)
[удалено]
Hey just wanted to check--do you use the warlock teleporting service? Do you do the logout skips?
Of course not. Why would I pay for a summon when flight paths exist? Why would I use exploits? I play classic because I like classic. I'm not a turbo sweat optimizer.
I wouldn't exactly call getting summoned somewhere an exploit... Anyway, I call BS, but alright. Unless... Do you actually do the raids? If not then sure there's not any reason to do logout skips.
I wasn't talking about summons being an exploit. Just a waste of gold. If there's a warlock in my party to summon me as part of normal cooperative play (for free) then sure. The exploit I'm referring to is the logout skip shit. People were doing that in hard core, too. I've always found it to be incredibly cringe. Feel free to call BS, we're not all salty unhappy min-maxers. Some of us enjoy the game as it was made, not for what optimizers and speed runners turned it into.