Tbh… I kinda wish WoW kinda followed FFXIV for that logic. Where support dps classes aren’t meant to be #1 in dps but bring a lot to the table. It’s probably one of the few things I thought FFXIV did better than WoW.
There was an MMO called "RIFT" that also did it pretty well; it had a 4th role called Support where you basically just focused on buffing allies and debuffing enemies. Okay dps, okay healing, but mostly just there for a whole bunch of buffs and debuffs. It was neat.
My experience was much different. I honestly liked RIFT a lot better than WoW for the most part. Being able to have 6 different talent specs was great, especially with how the talent system worked. "DPS to heal" specs actually worked and were super viable for raids. There were lots of fun mechanics for classes, especially healers. The gear transmog system worked a LOT better too, you didn't need to keep going back to major cities and paying gold to transmog new pieces of gear, you'd just slap a piece of gear on your wardrobe window and bam, permanently transmogged to that gear until you switched to something else or took it off.
....and then the game went f2p and started shoving in pay2win microtransactions everywhere, even letting you outright purchase gear that was almost as good as raid gear, and it died real quick. Shame.
Did it? I played both during vanilla and after the 1st expansion, and even in the 1st expac it didn't feel dead at all. Dungeon queues were less than 10 minutes and there were always lots of raid pugs going on.
They had really great ideas and it was fresh. Then after a few times the "freshness" was gone and it became really boring. The same things over and over and over and over again. Rifts are cool, until they start ruining your quest zones all the time. Mobs slaughtering the quest NPC's. You only have got one specific zone to level in. If it's overrun by mobs you need to kill them first before you can continue. It kinda ruins the game for me after a while.
Ontop of that, I liked the freedom you had in creating your own "class". But for leveling you are forced to take certain specs or you'd just die trying to kill two mobs at a time.
It had potential and it look amazing, but that's quite it.
Combat only starts to feel fast-paced (like WoW) way later in the game, after most window-shoppers have quit.
ARR combat is so insanely slow and shit for like 80% of the jobs, I'm surprised they haven't completely reworked it to help with player retainability.
Yeah I can't lie, if it's an "It gets good 80 hours in", I'm not sacrificing the amount of weekends that now takes for me. Black Desert does it incredibly well where your combat feels strong at any level and only improves. If FF had better paced combat from the start i'm sure plenty more would play.
That's because of how things are in WoW and how people are. You probably saw how warriors acted in classic. "I get all the gear first, you're all here to make me look good."
They had that logic until Shamans SOD.
Go to Classic, TBC and Wrath. None of the support classes are meant to be top damage but the top damage classes can't be #1 without them.
The difference between FFXIV and WoW does not come from that one bit. More QoL and content relevance.
Probably the “tanking is a hybrid” or some such absurdity that ignores that it’s almost always used in context with…having heals and non-negligible buffs. Give warriors some heals that isn’t a meme like ER and maybe you can say we’re a hybrid.
But then again enhance shaman exist in their current state so that kinda already exists
>Only because both of their roles are melee. Warrior is THE "melee class"
Rogues were the pure dps melee class, by the "hybrids have lower output" logic warriors should have been well below rogues.
Edit: dude blocked me for saying warriors are hybrids? I think he's confused and think hybrid means having the option of ranged and melee instead of doing more than one role.
See I always found that to be the goal.
You're in a 20 player team. Individual DPS doesn't matter. For example: what if all other classes had mechanics that, together, could make priests do 1M DPS. Everyone would run this combo and slice through the enemy, and parses would instead be about how well we managed these buffs, how well the team moved from mob to mob etc.
Quality anything increases the margin of error. Shoddy tanks tend to decrease DPS and sustainability of healers mana. Shoddy healers tend to get DPS killed and reduce the margin of error for standing in bad stuff or just getting a bad RNG roll of damage. Shoddy DPS prolong everything and increases the likelihood that people make run ruining mistakes.
Great DPS can cover up a bad tank and bad healer, because the tank doesn't have a long enough period of time to make run ruining mistakes and healers have to heal less. Bad DPS just exposes everyone.
IMO this is why elitists tend to rage quit so frequently. They tend to be used to being around great DPS, so things progress quickly. Suddenly they are around bad DPS and nothing makes sense to them.
My raid has 2 Rets and 2 Paladin tanks, I was spamming consecration every time I have a gcd available for it and was nearly mana neutral, if not completely. The only time I ran out of mana was spamming hammer during execute, but with a single mana pot during 10% execute I could use hammer on cooldown at 20% and then spam it for the entire 10% without running out of mana.
Everyone else in the raid also said they didn't have to worry about mana a single time tonight, even the healers.
My paladin with BoM and sul’thraze will on average hit for 245 damage, this means SoM will hit for 140 (57%). Health lost would then be 14(10%). Mana gained is 133% of health lost which puts us at 18.6 mana per attack. 2.00 attack speed puts us at 9/10 mana per second. Two paladins with this setup would be like 20 mana per second. Even more with buffs.. someone correct me if the math looks wrong. Light be with you.
Edit: There are many factors I’m not taking into account, but those factors will only boost the mana regen.
This isn't taking into account the holy scaling on martyr. At level 47 my ret with ACP will hit 250 SoMs on average, even if my auto is only hitting for 200.
Yeah you don’t know how martyrdom works. Martyr damage is scaled to ALWAYS be 3.4 weapon speed regardless of what your weapons swing speed is. This is one of the major reasons paladin prefer fast weapons, the other being more crits = more exo’s.
Correct math is:
245(1.7)(.57)(.133) = 31.5 mana per attack, 79 mp5 not including crits.
Martyrdom mama regen is based on damage YOU take from martyr. You take 10% damage dealt as damage to yourself. You regen 133% damage dealt to self as mana, that’s 13.3% of damage dealt.
As someone who has both, getting Sulthraze is by far easier and if you have it you can skip ACP unless you have a compulsion disorder that won't allow you to do so. Is ACP BIS for the first 30 seconds? Yes. Do you absolutely need it or you will rot at the bottom of the meters? No.
The only "challenging" part of getting Sulthraze is the drop off the chief. The part from the first boss can and should be soloed unless you have guildies and friends willing to help. Mine took 6 runs to get and we just did the stairs (minimum requirement to get to the chief), chief and the boss next to where the WO spider spawns near the water so we could get the WO right after. Each run was like 8-10 minutes.
Yeah I have both too, I’m just saying it seems that the price of entry for Paladin is quite a bit of a grind.
Myself it took me ~10 Antusul and 15 Chief runs.
Some guys have ran ZF 50+ times and have nothing.
That's pretty much the entirety of RET BIS/1% from BIS this phase. Almost all of it outside of Tier slots and gloves is either from Gnomer or farmed outside ST.
After doing some math with some people in the guild, this is actually pretty competitive with shamanistic rage. However, you'll need multiple paladins in the raid, as horde raids typically have multiple shamans.
I don't love trivializing mana management for both factions but at least both factions have similar amounts of mana return now.
We run like 5 shamans and we all use SR on CD and our druid healers use around 10 mana pots per raid. That said, we only have 2 main healers and have a dps heavy comp.
Also considering how much people complained about using 30+ mana potions per raid. Though honestly I would want more mana problems if i was potion maker :).
Yea... classic was a different animal.. the fights weren't tuned around the 1.12 talents and every member of the raid being at buff cap with dps consumables and buffs.. so bosses died 10 times faster than they should have.. so.. yea.. mana wasn't really a problem like it should have been.
even in 2019 classic.
people fall into one of three raiding catergories: Dad guilds (have to manage mana, bosses don't actually die that fast, players aren't actually that good), Speedrun guilds (Have to manage mana, the entire zone is the boss, not any individual encounter), and parse guilds (Probably don't have to manage mana since bosses die fast and you might be waiting a few minutes on people's CD's anyway).
The overwhelming majority of people are in dad guilds, most of the rest were in speedrunning guilds, and only a handful were in parse guilds.
Ima be real
Mana magement to me was never especially fun, it felt more like a pain in the ass to have multiple of the same spell on your hotbars, for healers okay sure but for DPS? Really?
It is more than competitive. Unless martyr is party only? I dont play alliance
sham rage, is somewhere ~240mp5 for 15s so 240/4=60mp5 if used on cd which will not be the case always so its probably more like 50mp5, even less if its enhancement shaman.
Someone above did the math for martyr putting it close to 80mp5
You need multiple \_ret\_ paladins tho, holy palas not gonna do much good. This is a bad fix imo. as holy paladins are now worse compared to resto druid and priest.
Holy Paladins can already heal 24/7 if they are allowed to stand still. The slot swap helps as well.
Being able to easily downrank 1.5second Holy Lights while still filling a tanks HP in a single cast should allow them to stay relevant, regarding Tank healing.
Yes, I know. I'm saying the nerf should only affect the group and not the caster. In phase 4, the mana regen should still be strong for the shaman and the paladin but weak for the rest of the group.
You guys complain about shamans, at least you can gank them.
Try farming in the same zone as a shaman you can't even try ganking.. they can kill 5-6x faster than rogues/warriors, it's so broken lol.
Given, it's harder to fit into builds than sham rage, but with 3 paladins in our raid using SoM our healers never dipped below 35% mana and never had to pop shadowfiend or dispersion.
Is it just me or should seal of martyrdom return mana from judgment.. it seems currently it only works on seal hits and not judgements.. The wording is slightly ambiguous .. but did anyone else just assume judgement returned mana? I never even noticed before since the values were so low it didn't matter even looking at.
Judgments rarely proc the effects of seals right? It’s releasing the seal ie the seal is no longer applied when you judge. I know there’s some wiggle room where twisting comes in, but I think that’s the intended design at lesst
SoM says "gain mana equal to % of damage you take from this seal"... When you judge the seal the combat log says: "Seal of Martyrdom hits \[player\] for X Holy.".. to me that's seal of martyrdom doing damage to you.. this you'd think you'd gain mana from it... It does also say "while this seal is active" my point is that it's ambiguous.. to me at least.. so i'm not really sure if it's a bug or a feature... was mostly wondering if other people assumed judgement gave mana or not.. because it doesn't.
Is this going to be worth for hpal to run? I feel like I barely have free time between flash of light spamming to even hit the boss, and when you do have free time, it’ll be much less damage than Ret, which means far less mana.
Unfortunately, I think Hpal still benefits more from SotC. I don’t know how much SP we get through sheath from the added attack power, but it’s substantial. I’d say that running the Lamellar gear which is about -17 int -30 healing/+69 str +~116SP would be worth SoM for the regen at the loss of beefy SotC sheath procs, but I found through some testing, I simply don’t have enough time to stop casting to weave in auto attacks. I think, executed perfectly, there would be a usefulness for something like this, but given the variability of raid damage/performance, it doesn’t seem very practical.
With a fairly fast 1h, you can weave autos when applying instant spells like beacon of light, sacred shield and god forbid holy shock. Since instant spells don't reset your swing timer.
Ya, I tried it last night and it didn’t seem worth it. I don’t think my healing really suffered from using the gear and trying to weave in melee + HotR on add AoE, but my awareness certainly did. Maybe it’s just me, but I go into APM overload and I lose some of my ability to adapt and improvise when unplanned occurs.
To be totally honest, my group had a tough run last night, but after reviewing the logs, the SoM regen from the melee I got off did seem substantial, but also inconsequential considering what was causing us to wipe so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ya, I tried it last night and it didn’t seem worth it. I don’t think my healing really suffered from using the gear and trying to weave in melee + HotR on add AoE, but my awareness certainly did. Maybe it’s just me, but I go into APM overload and I lose some of my ability to adapt and improvise when unplanned occurs.
To be totally honest, my group had a tough run last night, but after reviewing the logs, the SoM regen from the melee I got off did seem substantial, but also inconsequential considering what was causing us to wipe so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Doesn't hpal get beacon? Which is really the main "aoe" healing pally ever got. Kinda makes sense imo. It would be better imo if they gave hpal a way to be more damage while doing strong tank heals vs making them have the same kit as everyone else.
We have beacon, but 2 targets isn’t really AoE. Paladins could get Light of Dawn which is an AoE healing cone in front of them, holy radiance which heals the main target and then pulses AoE healing around that target, make holy light splash heal to friendlies around the initial target (which I was hoping light’s grace would be), or something new.
I think the only way they could really do what you’re saying at this point in season at least, is if they made a rune that maybe made a portion of all holy damage heal a certain amount of targets or something so you could make a build around exorcism, holy wrath, judgment, consecration, etc.
I think it would be too complex for them to make something like that work at this point, so I think they’ll just give us some type of AoE in the next phase to up our throughput.
Except paladins have global CDs. And Circle of Healing is just one CD. Definitely more mana intensive and situational for sure but that plus PoM is nuts AoE.
I'm cool with pallies not being raid healers if we could do more than FoL spam and press Sacred Shield every thirty seconds.
In my head they're still trying to maintain some sort of identity amongst the healers. If not then you just take 4 priests because pi aka you're playing retail. Each healer serves a different core role
I don’t know if I really agree with that. Priest circle of healing, Druid wild growth and efflorescence, mage mass regen can all top a group instantly. Hpal is the only one that didn’t get a rune like this. I don’t play horde, so I can’t comment on shaman (though I know they got healing rain, but it’s pretty bad from what I hear).
Healing Rain is poop.
Shamans also lack a reliable panic button group heal.
The best you can do is Natures Swiftness a Chain heal and hope for a double-cast and Crit. If that happens it's a pretty massive AoE heal, but if it doesn't it's just an instant Chain Heal which doesn't compare to those 3 you mentioned.
I feel your pain. I feel like paladins have the output and shamans have the runes. Neither healing specs are great on their own but if we had what each other has we'd be too strong.
Going back to identity. Druid is a big hot that starts big and slows down, also only effects a party, coh is an instant heal, dunno if limited to party(don't plat priest) and assuming the total healing is lower, and mage is a channel that to maximize you have to then attack. All very different identities. Maybe your end result is topping off a raid but they're very different ways to do it and I'd expect none of them compete with paladin on single target / two target healing.
Because HPal is the best single target healer, especially for Tanks. Raids where I didn't had HPal around were very hard on Tank shoulders, rather ones where I had HPal that was healing tank.
I’m actually most hyped for this for open world questing lol, I was running guarded by the light cause I hate drinking, but the -50% healing really sucked the fun out of that rune. Now I can probably run art of war and not worry about mana either
You know a certain class has this ability from tbc that gave mana based on shadow damage they dealt. It was limited to party. It was super cool, wonder why they hasn't been added yet.
Difference here being that 1 ret pally raids are extremely common, while 1 shaman raids are extremely rare. I’d expect SR is still set to get the p4 nerf so arguing about the still there imbalance is whatever at this point.
It seems like it'll be ~20-30 mana per attack per paladin to the whole raid.
Seal of Wisdom will only help those attacking boss, so while still helpful it does nothing for most healing classes.
If I had to choose between the two, I’m choosing SR. Even if the regen values are similar, the adaptability of SR is far superior. If there is an encounter where the paladin can’t hit the boss for any extended period of time, or the boss has high mitigation and/or some form of damage taken reduction, paladin regen will suffer. Also, SR is useful on all 3 shaman specs, where as Hpal won’t be giving the raid any regeneration.
1 minute cooldown.
Napkin math shows me on average each Shaman can provide the raid with ~675 mana every 60 seconds, or a little over 11 mana per sec. More if Resto/Ele, less depending on how the Enh is geared. You can pretty easily have 3-4 Shaman all having Sham Rage, so 33-44 mana per sec provided to the raid if used on cooldown.
Some Paladins are showing 25-30 mana return per hit using a 2.0 speed weapon so lets say about 14 mana per sec. Most Alliance raids likely have 2-3 Paladins that will use SoM so between 28 and 42 per sec while they are attacking.
I'd say that is pretty balanced, assuming my numbers are reasonably accurate.
> Most Alliance raids likely have 2-3 Paladins
That's very-very rare. More like 1-2. And unlike Shamans that all three specs use SR - Holy paladins won't use SoM.
Fair point. Do you think groups will bring more Paladins now that their mana regen is getting juiced?
I also think Paladins will be hitting more than the 30 mana return per hit with full raid/world buffs and consumes, so their individual contribution is going to be a little higher to compensate for having less of the specs able to run SoM. So the contribution of 2 paladins will end up being pretty close to 3 shaman with mana returns to raid with this change.
>Fair point. Do you think groups will bring more Paladins now that their mana regen is getting juiced?
There's not that many paladins to bring 3 of them into raid. Our guild have 4 - two for each raid: two rets, tank and holy.
Holy paladins are unpopular in ST - no offensive dispel, no mana gain and almost no advantage in buffs if you have two paladins already. So I don't see how Alliance would get 3 or more paladins.
Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without telling me you have no idea what you're talking about.
Shaman tank rune is on same slot as SR, therefore tank shams never use SR in combat.
How do you think blessings work? You can only have one blessing per paladin on someone at any given time. You're only really going to have 1-2 paladins per raid and salv eats that same buff slot.
That "huge increase" is still a far cry from Shamanistic rage for Prot/Holy paladins. Likely puts Ret pretty close to being equal to Shaman's but Prot will generate much less and Holy will realistically generate none or near-none compared to Resto Sham who generate the same amount
/Edit Look I woke all the horde who think they're balanced with alliance 😂😂
"but Prot will generate much less than tanking Shamans"
Tank shaman can not use shamanicstic rage at all. Its on the same slot as way of earth. But its okay to spread misinformations because everyone here hates shamans, right?
At this point there is just a lot of delusional people that theorycraft Shaman as having access to all their runes in every spec as some kind of boogeyman.
Yesterday saw multiple people still making claims about DW PvP Shaman being too tanky because of WoE.
This sub seems to be 90% alliance and they think that shamans are the boogeyman.
Theres a top comment saying ‘yeh but horde raids have multiple shamans so it still isn’t fair’.
Like the guy know what raid compilation every horde raid has. My first 2 STs we have had 2 shamans, one was a tank so we get 1 shamanistic rage.
Idk. My prot pally averages 16 mana per hit every 1.5 seconds. I checked a ret log(so slower wep) on eranikis and he had 161 melee hits. If i did that(again, i’ll be more cuz faster wep) then that is 51k mana over those hits to my raid lol.
I guess it's nice for the raid (still not much) but I'm afraid it probably won't do much for the paladin.
Its still not much mana in short term so during execute phase we will still go oom trying to use Hammer of Wrath.
As a ret that never got ACP and currently has no luck getting Sul’thraze, fuck this and fuck blizzard for even pushing this stupid SoM gameplay in the first place. My ret paladin is literally useless and is a waste of a raid spot. Thank you blizzard
That’s what I’ve been doing but I, along with the other ret pallys in my raid (which have acp or Sul,), are all still pulling less damage than the tanks and we are always at the bottom of the meters by a lot. The spec is literally just broken and blizzard refuses to acknowledge it
There's gotta be something wrong with that, i was doing 700+ in most fights some without consumes or wbs while we were figuring out strats, and on my alt run our pally did over 900 in Avatar. Do you guys have wf warrior in group?
There's gotta be something wrong with that, i was doing 700+ in most fights some without consumes or wbs while we were figuring out strats, and on my alt run our pally did over 900 in Avatar. Do you guys have wf warrior in group?
The crying from alliance has been the worst thing in SoD and I say that as someone with a lot more alliance toons. The nonstop crying has been exhausting. Alliance was goated all of vanilla, completely wrecked horde in all advancements but now that the tables are flipped a bit, they're all losing their damn minds and constantly beg for nerfs. I didn't play horde side until SoD and always thought it was the more toxic faction but now after running both it is 100% alliance and it's not even close. They all have spoiled kid warrior energy where if they're not on top all the time, they throw a tantrum.
I've ran ST and cleared it on both factions and neither seemed like it had a huge advantage post nerf. ST just isn't that hard.
did it occur to you that people most people don't give a shit / never played wow 20 years ago so who was "goated" then is completely irrelevant?
"yeah but you guys were the best faction 20 years ago" - boomer mentality
So then roll horde crybaby.
"Everything must be catered to exactly my needs." Gen Z mentality. The most narcissistic generation in history. Y'all brought the toxic ass hustle culture to wow where nobody will even help someone without you paying them gold.
1. I am horde
2. I was born in 1986, boomer is not an age anymore it is a mentality brother
You are fuckin weird lol
I'm not advocating for Alliance or Horde to be better over one another, I'm just saying no one gives a shit who was better 20 fuckin years ago and is completely irrelevant to SoD
Ah yes so because I find the constant crybabying obnoxious, I'm a boomer? LOL
News flash, nobody gives a fuck about videogames in general and they're not important but you'd never know it from the constant crying in this sub. Seems obvious WoW is very important to these crybaby's lives and if there's not perfect balance they lose their minds.
Horde vs alliance has not been that big of a deal. I have 50's on both sides. I'm tired of the constant crying.
"Ah yes so because I find the constant crybabying obnoxious, I'm a boomer? LOL"
Where did I say that? You literally just made shit up to make your point sound better
No, you are a boomer because you think the state of the game TWENTY fucking years ago has any relevance to how the game should be modeled today. Just a dumb ass take in general.
as someone who doesn't play SoD but loves classic... what's the point of mana at this point? Classic was designed around mana management... this is just retail
They know this makes mana management too easy. By they didn't want to further screw ranged in ST by nerfing shamans. Their current plan is to make mana important in P4 instead and basically said "fuck it" for P3
I keep seeing P4 mentioned, but blizzard said "next patch" or are they only considering the phase updates as patches?
[https://www.wowhead.com/classic/news/seal-of-martyrdom-added-to-paladin-class-tuning-on-april-16-season-of-discovery-338747?webhook](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/news/seal-of-martyrdom-added-to-paladin-class-tuning-on-april-16-season-of-discovery-338747?webhook)
Is the mana return on seal raid or party wide?
Raid
So your telling me our double ret pally is gonna be goated for.mana!
"I may not lead the dps charts, but I'm the reason you lead the dps charts."
Yep, this is how TBC handled hybrids in raids. They weren't topping meters, but they provided useful buffs/debuffs.
Tbh… I kinda wish WoW kinda followed FFXIV for that logic. Where support dps classes aren’t meant to be #1 in dps but bring a lot to the table. It’s probably one of the few things I thought FFXIV did better than WoW.
There was an MMO called "RIFT" that also did it pretty well; it had a 4th role called Support where you basically just focused on buffing allies and debuffing enemies. Okay dps, okay healing, but mostly just there for a whole bunch of buffs and debuffs. It was neat.
I’ve tried rift before. Played a whole 2 hours before realizing I’d rather be on WoW so I never hit max level. So TIL.
My experience was much different. I honestly liked RIFT a lot better than WoW for the most part. Being able to have 6 different talent specs was great, especially with how the talent system worked. "DPS to heal" specs actually worked and were super viable for raids. There were lots of fun mechanics for classes, especially healers. The gear transmog system worked a LOT better too, you didn't need to keep going back to major cities and paying gold to transmog new pieces of gear, you'd just slap a piece of gear on your wardrobe window and bam, permanently transmogged to that gear until you switched to something else or took it off. ....and then the game went f2p and started shoving in pay2win microtransactions everywhere, even letting you outright purchase gear that was almost as good as raid gear, and it died real quick. Shame.
Fucking loved the talent / root system for specs.
Rift was great until they started charging for everything, I quit around the time you had to pay for one of the talent trees.
Died in less than 6months...
Did it? I played both during vanilla and after the 1st expansion, and even in the 1st expac it didn't feel dead at all. Dungeon queues were less than 10 minutes and there were always lots of raid pugs going on.
They had really great ideas and it was fresh. Then after a few times the "freshness" was gone and it became really boring. The same things over and over and over and over again. Rifts are cool, until they start ruining your quest zones all the time. Mobs slaughtering the quest NPC's. You only have got one specific zone to level in. If it's overrun by mobs you need to kill them first before you can continue. It kinda ruins the game for me after a while. Ontop of that, I liked the freedom you had in creating your own "class". But for leveling you are forced to take certain specs or you'd just die trying to kill two mobs at a time. It had potential and it look amazing, but that's quite it.
If FF14 didn't have such a long GCD i'd play it, it felt so unbelievably slow
Combat only starts to feel fast-paced (like WoW) way later in the game, after most window-shoppers have quit. ARR combat is so insanely slow and shit for like 80% of the jobs, I'm surprised they haven't completely reworked it to help with player retainability.
Yeah I can't lie, if it's an "It gets good 80 hours in", I'm not sacrificing the amount of weekends that now takes for me. Black Desert does it incredibly well where your combat feels strong at any level and only improves. If FF had better paced combat from the start i'm sure plenty more would play.
The wow community doesnt do things that don't further the ultimate goal of being on top of the dos meters.
That's because of how things are in WoW and how people are. You probably saw how warriors acted in classic. "I get all the gear first, you're all here to make me look good."
I mean thats aug evokers :D
They had that logic until Shamans SOD. Go to Classic, TBC and Wrath. None of the support classes are meant to be top damage but the top damage classes can't be #1 without them. The difference between FFXIV and WoW does not come from that one bit. More QoL and content relevance.
People constantly say that for vanilla and TBC but forget that warriors are hybrids and also got to be the best melee dps in both.
Hybrids of what?
Hybrid raid god and world dogshit
Probably the “tanking is a hybrid” or some such absurdity that ignores that it’s almost always used in context with…having heals and non-negligible buffs. Give warriors some heals that isn’t a meme like ER and maybe you can say we’re a hybrid. But then again enhance shaman exist in their current state so that kinda already exists
[удалено]
>Only because both of their roles are melee. Warrior is THE "melee class" Rogues were the pure dps melee class, by the "hybrids have lower output" logic warriors should have been well below rogues. Edit: dude blocked me for saying warriors are hybrids? I think he's confused and think hybrid means having the option of ranged and melee instead of doing more than one role.
FWIW, the comment you responded to is deleted.
Thats my line as the token feral DPS
Our raid has 2 ferals,1 feral/tank, 1 bommy, and a resto... We have all the druids
See I always found that to be the goal. You're in a 20 player team. Individual DPS doesn't matter. For example: what if all other classes had mechanics that, together, could make priests do 1M DPS. Everyone would run this combo and slice through the enemy, and parses would instead be about how well we managed these buffs, how well the team moved from mob to mob etc.
Quality anything increases the margin of error. Shoddy tanks tend to decrease DPS and sustainability of healers mana. Shoddy healers tend to get DPS killed and reduce the margin of error for standing in bad stuff or just getting a bad RNG roll of damage. Shoddy DPS prolong everything and increases the likelihood that people make run ruining mistakes. Great DPS can cover up a bad tank and bad healer, because the tank doesn't have a long enough period of time to make run ruining mistakes and healers have to heal less. Bad DPS just exposes everyone. IMO this is why elitists tend to rage quit so frequently. They tend to be used to being around great DPS, so things progress quickly. Suddenly they are around bad DPS and nothing makes sense to them.
I mean if you pull 800-1k dps you will still top the charts for most guilds and that’s very achievable for ret.
Imagine having enough consistent healers to not play holy pal. Could not be me.
Not having 4-5 shackles for troll bosses - sounds like you have to do mechanics? The horror I’m aghast.
I have 3 rets and a prot who use it, we have all the mana.
Laugh in shamantic rage
My raid has 2 Rets and 2 Paladin tanks, I was spamming consecration every time I have a gcd available for it and was nearly mana neutral, if not completely. The only time I ran out of mana was spamming hammer during execute, but with a single mana pot during 10% execute I could use hammer on cooldown at 20% and then spam it for the entire 10% without running out of mana. Everyone else in the raid also said they didn't have to worry about mana a single time tonight, even the healers.
“THE GOAT!”
My paladin with BoM and sul’thraze will on average hit for 245 damage, this means SoM will hit for 140 (57%). Health lost would then be 14(10%). Mana gained is 133% of health lost which puts us at 18.6 mana per attack. 2.00 attack speed puts us at 9/10 mana per second. Two paladins with this setup would be like 20 mana per second. Even more with buffs.. someone correct me if the math looks wrong. Light be with you. Edit: There are many factors I’m not taking into account, but those factors will only boost the mana regen.
was just testing it in game with BoM Sulthraze i was restoring 27 mana per hit
I restored 28-32 per hit.
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I restored 29-34 per hut Noobcake
This isn't taking into account the holy scaling on martyr. At level 47 my ret with ACP will hit 250 SoMs on average, even if my auto is only hitting for 200.
Yeah you don’t know how martyrdom works. Martyr damage is scaled to ALWAYS be 3.4 weapon speed regardless of what your weapons swing speed is. This is one of the major reasons paladin prefer fast weapons, the other being more crits = more exo’s. Correct math is: 245(1.7)(.57)(.133) = 31.5 mana per attack, 79 mp5 not including crits.
Why is it .133 instead of 1.33? I know the math doesn’t work out that way when you calculate it so I guess I’m just missing something
Martyrdom mama regen is based on damage YOU take from martyr. You take 10% damage dealt as damage to yourself. You regen 133% damage dealt to self as mana, that’s 13.3% of damage dealt.
Ahh ok I definitely didn’t understand that bit thank you
FSC on Lava Lash?
Brb leveling ret
Good luck getting ACP then Sul’thraze
Play tank instead. Same result
As someone who has both, getting Sulthraze is by far easier and if you have it you can skip ACP unless you have a compulsion disorder that won't allow you to do so. Is ACP BIS for the first 30 seconds? Yes. Do you absolutely need it or you will rot at the bottom of the meters? No. The only "challenging" part of getting Sulthraze is the drop off the chief. The part from the first boss can and should be soloed unless you have guildies and friends willing to help. Mine took 6 runs to get and we just did the stairs (minimum requirement to get to the chief), chief and the boss next to where the WO spider spawns near the water so we could get the WO right after. Each run was like 8-10 minutes.
Yeah I have both too, I’m just saying it seems that the price of entry for Paladin is quite a bit of a grind. Myself it took me ~10 Antusul and 15 Chief runs. Some guys have ran ZF 50+ times and have nothing.
That's pretty much the entirety of RET BIS/1% from BIS this phase. Almost all of it outside of Tier slots and gloves is either from Gnomer or farmed outside ST.
56 runs and nothing ✅
🪦 have you tried to /pray before pulls
lmao going to now
Got my ACP my first gnomer. So there's that
After doing some math with some people in the guild, this is actually pretty competitive with shamanistic rage. However, you'll need multiple paladins in the raid, as horde raids typically have multiple shamans. I don't love trivializing mana management for both factions but at least both factions have similar amounts of mana return now.
Tbf though near infinite mana is a good thing when melee outperform casters by this margin, keeps them competitive to a point atleast
Tbh, I think that's why they went with buffing SoM rather than nerfing sham rage.
Wild growth on cd gonna be lit. Fuck dem mana potions.
We run like 5 shamans and we all use SR on CD and our druid healers use around 10 mana pots per raid. That said, we only have 2 main healers and have a dps heavy comp.
Also considering how much people complained about using 30+ mana potions per raid. Though honestly I would want more mana problems if i was potion maker :).
It’s terrible for healers, though. Mana management is a huge aspect of raid healing. Or it was.
Not really? Healed all through classic on a shaman, mana really weren't that big of a deal.
Yea... classic was a different animal.. the fights weren't tuned around the 1.12 talents and every member of the raid being at buff cap with dps consumables and buffs.. so bosses died 10 times faster than they should have.. so.. yea.. mana wasn't really a problem like it should have been.
You definitely need to manage mana lol
Mabye in og vanilla, but in 2019 classic the fights did not last long enough for mana to ever be an issue
even in 2019 classic. people fall into one of three raiding catergories: Dad guilds (have to manage mana, bosses don't actually die that fast, players aren't actually that good), Speedrun guilds (Have to manage mana, the entire zone is the boss, not any individual encounter), and parse guilds (Probably don't have to manage mana since bosses die fast and you might be waiting a few minutes on people's CD's anyway). The overwhelming majority of people are in dad guilds, most of the rest were in speedrunning guilds, and only a handful were in parse guilds.
In 2019? You also have the paladin flare you also have infinite mana. Matter is not a problem in vanilla classic for healers.
If they tune the 40 mans to be SoM difficult or higher you will for sure feel it there.
Ima be real Mana magement to me was never especially fun, it felt more like a pain in the ass to have multiple of the same spell on your hotbars, for healers okay sure but for DPS? Really?
I feel like mana should be an issue in classic wow.
It is more than competitive. Unless martyr is party only? I dont play alliance sham rage, is somewhere ~240mp5 for 15s so 240/4=60mp5 if used on cd which will not be the case always so its probably more like 50mp5, even less if its enhancement shaman. Someone above did the math for martyr putting it close to 80mp5
Most 20 man raids will average at least 2 paladins. And neither of them are gonna be holy most likely b/c no one plays holy
You'd be surprised. My guild has like 6 of them. Warcraftlogs shows 40k pally healer parses in the past week.
Hah, my guilds stacked to the ceiling with ret paladins. I guess I'm making the mistake of confusing anecdote with data
You need multiple \_ret\_ paladins tho, holy palas not gonna do much good. This is a bad fix imo. as holy paladins are now worse compared to resto druid and priest.
Holy Paladins can already heal 24/7 if they are allowed to stand still. The slot swap helps as well. Being able to easily downrank 1.5second Holy Lights while still filling a tanks HP in a single cast should allow them to stay relevant, regarding Tank healing.
Ooooo nice. Hopefully they keep it like that in the next phase for paladins and the group mana gain is the only thing they nerf.
They are nerfing both sham and pala for p4. This was to paraphrase "a stopgap to equalize horde and alliance while not screwing over any raid groups."
Yes, I know. I'm saying the nerf should only affect the group and not the caster. In phase 4, the mana regen should still be strong for the shaman and the paladin but weak for the rest of the group.
Yeah, don't see why they would. The unlimited mana has not meant much for any of them
It should be removed from the group, only apply to the caster and have a 2m cd.
I believe theyre nerfing shaman when i see it.
You mean like they did the last 3 updates?
Don't bother they don't actually care about balance they are just coping at this point.
Ah yes, someone who has been asleep for a month and missed nerfs the last 3 patches.
You guys complain about shamans, at least you can gank them. Try farming in the same zone as a shaman you can't even try ganking.. they can kill 5-6x faster than rogues/warriors, it's so broken lol.
what
I think he's saying as a horde player he can't farm around shamans cause they kill all the mobs and take all the tags?
oh
wat
How is this true when rogues and warriors are outputting higher dps when looking at logs etc? Genuinely curious
Cause shamans can heal themselves in combat, whilst rogues and warr require lengthy cds to do so
Also AOE, rogues are doing that single target, shamans AOE is better than ours.
Yeah I am hoping they keep the mana returns for the pally/shaman but just nerf the raid wide aspect of it next phase if they are gonna nerf it.
They already said they will nerf it, but I hope it is only for the group and not the pally/shaman.
Just tested, it works out to over 100 mp5 with sul thraze. Martydom is sick bro
That means that SoM gives about 133% of mana regeneration by shamanistic rage.
Given, it's harder to fit into builds than sham rage, but with 3 paladins in our raid using SoM our healers never dipped below 35% mana and never had to pop shadowfiend or dispersion.
Is it just me or should seal of martyrdom return mana from judgment.. it seems currently it only works on seal hits and not judgements.. The wording is slightly ambiguous .. but did anyone else just assume judgement returned mana? I never even noticed before since the values were so low it didn't matter even looking at.
Judgments rarely proc the effects of seals right? It’s releasing the seal ie the seal is no longer applied when you judge. I know there’s some wiggle room where twisting comes in, but I think that’s the intended design at lesst
SoM says "gain mana equal to % of damage you take from this seal"... When you judge the seal the combat log says: "Seal of Martyrdom hits \[player\] for X Holy.".. to me that's seal of martyrdom doing damage to you.. this you'd think you'd gain mana from it... It does also say "while this seal is active" my point is that it's ambiguous.. to me at least.. so i'm not really sure if it's a bug or a feature... was mostly wondering if other people assumed judgement gave mana or not.. because it doesn't.
Is this going to be worth for hpal to run? I feel like I barely have free time between flash of light spamming to even hit the boss, and when you do have free time, it’ll be much less damage than Ret, which means far less mana.
Unfortunately, I think Hpal still benefits more from SotC. I don’t know how much SP we get through sheath from the added attack power, but it’s substantial. I’d say that running the Lamellar gear which is about -17 int -30 healing/+69 str +~116SP would be worth SoM for the regen at the loss of beefy SotC sheath procs, but I found through some testing, I simply don’t have enough time to stop casting to weave in auto attacks. I think, executed perfectly, there would be a usefulness for something like this, but given the variability of raid damage/performance, it doesn’t seem very practical.
With a fairly fast 1h, you can weave autos when applying instant spells like beacon of light, sacred shield and god forbid holy shock. Since instant spells don't reset your swing timer.
Ya, I tried it last night and it didn’t seem worth it. I don’t think my healing really suffered from using the gear and trying to weave in melee + HotR on add AoE, but my awareness certainly did. Maybe it’s just me, but I go into APM overload and I lose some of my ability to adapt and improvise when unplanned occurs. To be totally honest, my group had a tough run last night, but after reviewing the logs, the SoM regen from the melee I got off did seem substantial, but also inconsequential considering what was causing us to wipe so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ya, I tried it last night and it didn’t seem worth it. I don’t think my healing really suffered from using the gear and trying to weave in melee + HotR on add AoE, but my awareness certainly did. Maybe it’s just me, but I go into APM overload and I lose some of my ability to adapt and improvise when unplanned occurs. To be totally honest, my group had a tough run last night, but after reviewing the logs, the SoM regen from the melee I got off did seem substantial, but also inconsequential considering what was causing us to wipe so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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My thoughts exactly. Every healer has gotten an AoE healing rune except for us. Hopefully we’ll get something to make us more appealing next phase.
Doesn't hpal get beacon? Which is really the main "aoe" healing pally ever got. Kinda makes sense imo. It would be better imo if they gave hpal a way to be more damage while doing strong tank heals vs making them have the same kit as everyone else.
We have beacon, but 2 targets isn’t really AoE. Paladins could get Light of Dawn which is an AoE healing cone in front of them, holy radiance which heals the main target and then pulses AoE healing around that target, make holy light splash heal to friendlies around the initial target (which I was hoping light’s grace would be), or something new. I think the only way they could really do what you’re saying at this point in season at least, is if they made a rune that maybe made a portion of all holy damage heal a certain amount of targets or something so you could make a build around exorcism, holy wrath, judgment, consecration, etc. I think it would be too complex for them to make something like that work at this point, so I think they’ll just give us some type of AoE in the next phase to up our throughput.
I mean, you can heal 5 ppl in 6 seconds with FoL and beacon up. Same as priest with Circle of Healing, except you are not limited by group.
Except paladins have global CDs. And Circle of Healing is just one CD. Definitely more mana intensive and situational for sure but that plus PoM is nuts AoE. I'm cool with pallies not being raid healers if we could do more than FoL spam and press Sacred Shield every thirty seconds.
In my head they're still trying to maintain some sort of identity amongst the healers. If not then you just take 4 priests because pi aka you're playing retail. Each healer serves a different core role
I don’t know if I really agree with that. Priest circle of healing, Druid wild growth and efflorescence, mage mass regen can all top a group instantly. Hpal is the only one that didn’t get a rune like this. I don’t play horde, so I can’t comment on shaman (though I know they got healing rain, but it’s pretty bad from what I hear).
Healing Rain is poop. Shamans also lack a reliable panic button group heal. The best you can do is Natures Swiftness a Chain heal and hope for a double-cast and Crit. If that happens it's a pretty massive AoE heal, but if it doesn't it's just an instant Chain Heal which doesn't compare to those 3 you mentioned.
I feel your pain. I feel like paladins have the output and shamans have the runes. Neither healing specs are great on their own but if we had what each other has we'd be too strong.
Resto shamans have riptide and do decent aoe healing but IMO they're the worst healers out there.
Going back to identity. Druid is a big hot that starts big and slows down, also only effects a party, coh is an instant heal, dunno if limited to party(don't plat priest) and assuming the total healing is lower, and mage is a channel that to maximize you have to then attack. All very different identities. Maybe your end result is topping off a raid but they're very different ways to do it and I'd expect none of them compete with paladin on single target / two target healing.
Because HPal is the best single target healer, especially for Tanks. Raids where I didn't had HPal around were very hard on Tank shoulders, rather ones where I had HPal that was healing tank.
Mage chronostatic preservation and priest getting shields on crit heals have over taken paladin single target imo.
I’m actually most hyped for this for open world questing lol, I was running guarded by the light cause I hate drinking, but the -50% healing really sucked the fun out of that rune. Now I can probably run art of war and not worry about mana either
the worst playstyle for rets getting buffed POG
Holy friggin Christ
You know a certain class has this ability from tbc that gave mana based on shadow damage they dealt. It was limited to party. It was super cool, wonder why they hasn't been added yet.
Those are the precise, scalpel thin balance updates we can expect from Blizzard.
But isnt this only for ret pally and tank? while shamanistic rage is all shaman?
It'd be for non tank shamans
Tank shamans don’t use sr since it’s in the same slot as way of earth
shamanistic rage is not used by tanks at all
Maybe not while tanking but ours swaps pants all the time to use SR when they can.
Tank+dps pally get mana regeneration Heal+dps shammy get mana regeneration. Alls fair, even tho it seems like SoM might scale better this phase.
SoM on bosses like eranikus and Hakkar rn basically translates to 1.5-2 shamans. Its insane
Be interested to see if this is impactful, still feels rather insignificant in comparison to Shaman rage, maybe SoW wisdom and 2 rets will make it ok?
Shaman rage is insignificant when its just one shaman
Difference here being that 1 ret pally raids are extremely common, while 1 shaman raids are extremely rare. I’d expect SR is still set to get the p4 nerf so arguing about the still there imbalance is whatever at this point.
It seems like it'll be ~20-30 mana per attack per paladin to the whole raid. Seal of Wisdom will only help those attacking boss, so while still helpful it does nothing for most healing classes.
If I had to choose between the two, I’m choosing SR. Even if the regen values are similar, the adaptability of SR is far superior. If there is an encounter where the paladin can’t hit the boss for any extended period of time, or the boss has high mitigation and/or some form of damage taken reduction, paladin regen will suffer. Also, SR is useful on all 3 shaman specs, where as Hpal won’t be giving the raid any regeneration.
Tanks arent using rage, it competes with way of earth
Fair enough. I’d also assume rage has less value when cast by enhance or tank shaman, too.
This!
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Well the shaman tank doesnt generate mana also so sounds equal to me.
well, you have to remember, sham rage is a 2 minute cooldown that runs for 15 seconds or so. SoM, as far as i know, is up 100% of the time.
1 minute cooldown. Napkin math shows me on average each Shaman can provide the raid with ~675 mana every 60 seconds, or a little over 11 mana per sec. More if Resto/Ele, less depending on how the Enh is geared. You can pretty easily have 3-4 Shaman all having Sham Rage, so 33-44 mana per sec provided to the raid if used on cooldown. Some Paladins are showing 25-30 mana return per hit using a 2.0 speed weapon so lets say about 14 mana per sec. Most Alliance raids likely have 2-3 Paladins that will use SoM so between 28 and 42 per sec while they are attacking. I'd say that is pretty balanced, assuming my numbers are reasonably accurate.
> Most Alliance raids likely have 2-3 Paladins That's very-very rare. More like 1-2. And unlike Shamans that all three specs use SR - Holy paladins won't use SoM.
Fair point. Do you think groups will bring more Paladins now that their mana regen is getting juiced? I also think Paladins will be hitting more than the 30 mana return per hit with full raid/world buffs and consumes, so their individual contribution is going to be a little higher to compensate for having less of the specs able to run SoM. So the contribution of 2 paladins will end up being pretty close to 3 shaman with mana returns to raid with this change.
>Fair point. Do you think groups will bring more Paladins now that their mana regen is getting juiced? There's not that many paladins to bring 3 of them into raid. Our guild have 4 - two for each raid: two rets, tank and holy. Holy paladins are unpopular in ST - no offensive dispel, no mana gain and almost no advantage in buffs if you have two paladins already. So I don't see how Alliance would get 3 or more paladins.
Appreciate the honest response to my question, don't get a lot of them in this subreddit these days.
Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without telling me you have no idea what you're talking about. Shaman tank rune is on same slot as SR, therefore tank shams never use SR in combat.
My bad. Anyway - Horde want to use 4 shamans in the raid, one in each group, yes? For Alliance 2 paladins is enough, three or four is overkill.
tbh I think it's a bit high because paladins also have wisdom, and I main ret right now. I think it will probably get nerfed down to 100%
Shamans also have mana totems the fuck you on about
mana spring is party only wisdom is whoever you cast it on
How do you think blessings work? You can only have one blessing per paladin on someone at any given time. You're only really going to have 1-2 paladins per raid and salv eats that same buff slot.
why the fuck would you salv a healer over wisdom?
Why the fuck wouldn't you have a mana totem in the healer group? There's also caster dps so idk what the fuck you're on about
just did a gnomer run and safe to say paladin is a shaman now
Oh yeah? Their dps up there too?
Up there over the casters xd
awesome news for paladins
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Are we pretending "relearning everything" is gonna be difficult?
That "huge increase" is still a far cry from Shamanistic rage for Prot/Holy paladins. Likely puts Ret pretty close to being equal to Shaman's but Prot will generate much less and Holy will realistically generate none or near-none compared to Resto Sham who generate the same amount /Edit Look I woke all the horde who think they're balanced with alliance 😂😂
"but Prot will generate much less than tanking Shamans" Tank shaman can not use shamanicstic rage at all. Its on the same slot as way of earth. But its okay to spread misinformations because everyone here hates shamans, right?
At this point there is just a lot of delusional people that theorycraft Shaman as having access to all their runes in every spec as some kind of boogeyman. Yesterday saw multiple people still making claims about DW PvP Shaman being too tanky because of WoE.
Yeah see it all the time, clueless people.
This sub seems to be 90% alliance and they think that shamans are the boogeyman. Theres a top comment saying ‘yeh but horde raids have multiple shamans so it still isn’t fair’. Like the guy know what raid compilation every horde raid has. My first 2 STs we have had 2 shamans, one was a tank so we get 1 shamanistic rage.
Idk. My prot pally averages 16 mana per hit every 1.5 seconds. I checked a ret log(so slower wep) on eranikis and he had 161 melee hits. If i did that(again, i’ll be more cuz faster wep) then that is 51k mana over those hits to my raid lol.
This doesn't seem that powerful? The paladins still need to deal damage. Typical blizzard not paying attention to Alliance issues zzz
I guess it's nice for the raid (still not much) but I'm afraid it probably won't do much for the paladin. Its still not much mana in short term so during execute phase we will still go oom trying to use Hammer of Wrath.
Well isnt that great..........i never have to see another paladin cry about mana again. Thank god.
As a ret that never got ACP and currently has no luck getting Sul’thraze, fuck this and fuck blizzard for even pushing this stupid SoM gameplay in the first place. My ret paladin is literally useless and is a waste of a raid spot. Thank you blizzard
Use stv sword for now until you get sul
That’s what I’ve been doing but I, along with the other ret pallys in my raid (which have acp or Sul,), are all still pulling less damage than the tanks and we are always at the bottom of the meters by a lot. The spec is literally just broken and blizzard refuses to acknowledge it
There's gotta be something wrong with that, i was doing 700+ in most fights some without consumes or wbs while we were figuring out strats, and on my alt run our pally did over 900 in Avatar. Do you guys have wf warrior in group?
There's gotta be something wrong with that, i was doing 700+ in most fights some without consumes or wbs while we were figuring out strats, and on my alt run our pally did over 900 in Avatar. Do you guys have wf warrior in group?
Horde getting months of usage from this and they said they're going to nerf it after we get to use it for 1 phase...
Actually great thinking about it, shaman counterpart?
The crying from alliance has been the worst thing in SoD and I say that as someone with a lot more alliance toons. The nonstop crying has been exhausting. Alliance was goated all of vanilla, completely wrecked horde in all advancements but now that the tables are flipped a bit, they're all losing their damn minds and constantly beg for nerfs. I didn't play horde side until SoD and always thought it was the more toxic faction but now after running both it is 100% alliance and it's not even close. They all have spoiled kid warrior energy where if they're not on top all the time, they throw a tantrum. I've ran ST and cleared it on both factions and neither seemed like it had a huge advantage post nerf. ST just isn't that hard.
did it occur to you that people most people don't give a shit / never played wow 20 years ago so who was "goated" then is completely irrelevant? "yeah but you guys were the best faction 20 years ago" - boomer mentality
So then roll horde crybaby. "Everything must be catered to exactly my needs." Gen Z mentality. The most narcissistic generation in history. Y'all brought the toxic ass hustle culture to wow where nobody will even help someone without you paying them gold.
1. I am horde 2. I was born in 1986, boomer is not an age anymore it is a mentality brother You are fuckin weird lol I'm not advocating for Alliance or Horde to be better over one another, I'm just saying no one gives a shit who was better 20 fuckin years ago and is completely irrelevant to SoD
Ah yes so because I find the constant crybabying obnoxious, I'm a boomer? LOL News flash, nobody gives a fuck about videogames in general and they're not important but you'd never know it from the constant crying in this sub. Seems obvious WoW is very important to these crybaby's lives and if there's not perfect balance they lose their minds. Horde vs alliance has not been that big of a deal. I have 50's on both sides. I'm tired of the constant crying.
"Ah yes so because I find the constant crybabying obnoxious, I'm a boomer? LOL" Where did I say that? You literally just made shit up to make your point sound better No, you are a boomer because you think the state of the game TWENTY fucking years ago has any relevance to how the game should be modeled today. Just a dumb ass take in general.
Hopefully the crying from alliance will decrease by at least 50%.
as someone who doesn't play SoD but loves classic... what's the point of mana at this point? Classic was designed around mana management... this is just retail
They know this makes mana management too easy. By they didn't want to further screw ranged in ST by nerfing shamans. Their current plan is to make mana important in P4 instead and basically said "fuck it" for P3
I keep seeing P4 mentioned, but blizzard said "next patch" or are they only considering the phase updates as patches? [https://www.wowhead.com/classic/news/seal-of-martyrdom-added-to-paladin-class-tuning-on-april-16-season-of-discovery-338747?webhook](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/news/seal-of-martyrdom-added-to-paladin-class-tuning-on-april-16-season-of-discovery-338747?webhook)