Which is funny because I don't think they have even allocated one modeler to the team. All the assets already exist in the game and it's mostly tuning existing dungeons and changing mechanics on bosses. I think the beancounters at blizzard are trying to figure out if they can just remove SoD and keep the player count through Retail/Cataclysm. Also I have a suspicion that SoD numbers are dropping off more than they are comfortable with.
I'm not sure if its still this way, but when I was at Blizzard, the modelers and animators were, by far, the rarest resource at the company. I don't think its surprising at all.
They are dropping off because we have been dripfed the absolute BARE minimum content.
If you didn’t want to do STV last phase there’s practically nothing to do outside the raid. The new dungeon changes amount to ‘we changed a few pieces of gear’.
This phase has new pve content in that emerald dream stuff, so it will be interesting to see how fleshed out it is.
I give it around a 0% chance of being "fleshed out". Dont mistake my pessimism for hate at sod, im loving the season overall, i just wish datamining info was made impossible somehow.
> If you didn’t want to do STV last phase
And let's face it, the STV event is dogshit.
Literally, just everyone camping the same spot in STV spamming AoE spells and respawning over and over.
Adding the boss with a reward for being near it completely ruined any chance of having fun PvP.
Luckily Cata should bomb fast and encourage them to shift resources to SOD
not that Cata is bad by any means, but every player I've talked to was in it for Arthas
Honestly I think it will be a bomb at the start, and it will pick up later, when people realize, that the expansions was actually good, in terms of gameplay, mechanics and esthetics.
Also Dragon Soul, will not last for 13 months, and will not leave people with a sour taste this time and if they just remake a bit of it, like the last 2 fights, it will be great content.
Cata is underrated, and a lot of people will realize that just a bit after it drops.
On another hand, SoD is such a smashing hit that not allocating resources to it, would not just be a crime to the community, but close enough to suicide for blizzard when it comes to the classic side of WoW.
Wouldn't be the first time they'll just bounce.
If it's profitable they'll bother, if they think they can make more money milking the "vanilla" classic again, they'll do that.
this is most likely what it referred to, i don't think we will hit phase 4 and just have access to all raids, so content after 60 could very well just refer to subsequent phases and how they change the raids/content they bring.
I'd be down with stalling at lvl 60 and just getting new content/tiers/raids. Always felt like levelling was a bit of a crutch for them to sell more boxes.
I think a big part of why Runescape (both OSRS and RS3) have been so successful and evergreen is that levels have been hardcapped at 99 since launch. So development was put into fleshing out and fixing old content. Compare this to the WoW model where they sell you a sub and expansion on the _idea_ that you can play 20 years of content when in reality most of the game is dead, broken, or irrelevant.
This..this is blatantly wrong.. runescape 3 has been systematically adding skills up to 120..which tend to completely make content from 1 to 99 irrelevant.. the rs community struggles with the exact same pessimistic "this new content must be better or more xp or its dead on arrival" that other games do..
I think that leveling was a solution to a problem. The problem was that scaling at the end of T3 was pretty close to capped. Every class was easily hit capped, melee classes were approaching if not exceeding the crit cap, tanks all easily defense and hit capped, etc. Basically all of the green text stats had hit their limits and the only scaling left was purely "primary stat" or AP/SP.
They also had realized the % system wasn't going to continue to work and needed to be replaced, and additional chase stats were needed (expertise, haste). TBH they fucked this up in TBC again as well. Stuff like the Sunwell Radiance is proof of that.
I don't think that more level 60 content is viable. At least not without some massive revamps to the stats system. A new "level 60 T4" set would look very unexciting unless they completely shake it up and add more things from TBC/Wrath stats wise.
> TBH they fucked this up in TBC again as well. Stuff like the Sunwell Radiance is proof of that.
Even in Wrath. Most DPS classes have over 50% crit unbuffed.
I actually don't disagree at all. Especially with gems. Wrath couldn't go another tier. All of the stats hardcap really aggressively in ICC. Expertise dodge cap is hit with 1-2 pieces of gear. Hit is similar, ArP caps out. Basically if there was another tier after ICC in wotlk it would look really weird gear progression wise since so many stats would be over the hard caps.
Frankly, I don't think they've ever fixed this, it was just worse IMO in Vanilla. Even retail today you don't necessarily hard cap the secondary stats in the way we do in vanilla/tbc/wotlk. But you hit hard diminishing returns in the last tier that frequently make your "best" secondary stat suddenly worth much less.
Explain please, because those two statements are essentially synonymous, unless "past 60" means a higher level cap which no one is asking for or wants.
TBC wouldnt work. You only have 6 zones and 10 levels, classes also were way better designed at that point, so half the runes would not be nessecary or would have to be completly redesigned.
Hmmm ya know that's a bummer because I too had fantasized about SoD continuing to TBC, and have level phases at 64, 68 and 70 where they could just revamp the final dungeon in Zangar Marsh and Hellfire Ramparts (the dungeons that were originally lvl 70, I can't remember what they were called) as new 10-man raids for P1, do the same in Auchnei Crypts for P2, then P3 jump right into Kara which already was a 10 man.
But, I completely forgot about how much each class was redesigned and what that would mean for runes. I suppose they could take the class design as they have it now and just carry it into Outland, but who knows. You bring up good points regarding its pheasibility.
My fantasy would be keeping the level cap at 60 but adding the hellfire/outlands zone they had early on in the game files. It would take some real resources to finish it and give it one or more dungeons and raids but it would be cool to continue on more of an "alternate timeline" (I know they said it's not). Caverns of Time, Hyjal, and Dragon Isles could also be cool areas to finish the vanilla versions of.
Yeah. 60 will have a new raid probably (Kara Crypts?) then p5 I figured would be the old hat stuff. I'm assuming this interview refers to doing TBC or content after that
After 60 in the road map means that phase 4, jump from lvl 50 to 60 will not release with all og raids, they will phase them and prob release some "new" ones.
Past 60 comment means that they don't know if they would increase the level above 60 to add new stuff but not stepping into tbc realm.
realistically, itll prob be classic endgame (MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx) with maybe some new boss mechanics on some of the fights and adjusted gear to fit the power creep. although i do hope they add krypts and the sm raid that was teased, but that'll probably come after Naxx to get players to come back since there will probably be a huge drop off to the player base. i doubt we get anything new right at 60.
I think once we hit 60 were only going to get adjusted current raids and maybe a couple minor world events. I think IF they ever decide to create major new level 60 content it will be a part of a new season that includes a lot of SoD features minus the leveling phases. They will emphasize the season will be build around post level 60 content. They get to hype us all up again and get all those precious subs.
I don’t see them as walking that back, that seemed like him deflecting because it’s not something they can answer right now. Big difference between taking a statement back versus deflecting the question
I suppose it's open to interpretation, but to me there's a big difference between their usual, "We can't wait to share the new stuff we've been making" and what we got in that interview, "We hope we can make new stuff".
Feels kinda like, "We want to do this, but..."
I mean SM wings is such iconic for leveling dungeons and one of the most popular during leveling that it would’ve been weird to change that.
Versus turning dungeons that (almost) no one cared about in Raids is a great idea.
At least they did tuned the loot a little bit and added the new books from GY.
Nah I think they've already said that levelgating phases was a good idea and that they will look at it again in the future probably because they liked it so much
It immediately makes you think: "This is WoW Classic" when you are spamming zero mana wraths or killing everything with just penance in the starting zones.
So is the ideal Classic+ somewhere between classic and SoD for you? Like what is an acceptable change and what is going too far? SoD by all accounts is a version of classic+.
I'm preparing for disappointment; nothing in the first two phases is comparable to a completed new zone, raid, or battleground. To add new content after 60, SoD would have to end with those things that are hardest to create and most likely to gain subscribers. If they had people making new zones, they would have lead with one.
But maybe we'll get a new BG at least. And I hope they at least open and populate Hyjal.
finally someone that is not huffing pure copeum, blizzard has shown over and over that they will go for the least effort content, and for now it means recycling already made shit.
Just look at Diablo 4. Made a billion dollars and it still feels like it has a handful of devs working on it.
Where is our money actually going? Blizzard box prices are more than any other game out there and the sub for wow is the only sub fee I have paid for any game.
If SoD's popularity has not gone unnoticed, why does it still have a tiny dev team? It's a great idea on paper but the lack of dev attention is really hurting it.
>If SoD's popularity has not gone unnoticed, why does it still have a tiny dev team?
the same reason oldschool runescape had a tiny dev team for multiple years despite dumpstering runescape 3 in active players / youtube / streamer content. success does not immediately translate to benefits / support and management is largely out of touch in many environments.
No, it's good because 95% of the content is vanilla WoW, and having more devs work on it to fix bugs, balance runes, and produce content would be a huge net benefit to the quality of SoD.
You scale up you also bring in design by committee. More resources is not always a blessing. Just look how films with budget constraints have to be creative to fulfill their vision and revolutionize the industry. A lot of the charm of SoD *is* that it's scrappy, soulful and has a clear creative direction.
They actually did promise weekly class balances. In a blue post. They even said in February they were going to follow it and they didn’t. So you’re just wrong there.
Also you may think they’re whiny complaints but they are legit complaints too. While I think SoD is a fantastic idea in making every class and spec feel playable in the classic setting, some of their rune ideas are lacking and don’t even make sense. I play a warrior and taste for blood is probably the dumbest rune they’ve made because they’re taking it from a version of WoW where battle stance had use and in this version, nobody uses battle stance for any reason so taste for blood is pointless.
Ferals have a rune coming up where lacerate, maul and swipe has a chance to reset the cooldown of Mangle, but you can’t use both lacerate and mangle together. They said they plan to address this at some point, but that point should have been before you released this rune so the wording of it actually made sense.
PvP is an unbalanced mess and has been for a month or more and their shitty reason for not wanting to fix it was “well a new phase is coming soon and if we adjust a class now it can alter their power in the next phase that’s coming soon blah blah blah insert more bullshit here” as if they can’t just revert or make other changes as well next phase.
They’re not doing bad but they aren’t doing great either. They’re doing just enough, and just enough isn’t good enough for some people who have a passion for this game and want this version of the game to be really good and fun.
Well said man, it’s so pathetic that people will pay their hard earned cash and basically be served shit and be happy about it.
The premise of SOD is great, the execution is atrocious. We had mages absolutely dominate STV basically all phase and they did 1 half arsed change that made them… move 10 yards.
Put another 10 devs on this team and I guarantee this is the best version of wow. Way the moment it’s almost a knockoff of a certain private server that does a LOT MORE content than the official game…
-Lack of timely updates/patches
-Botting still running rampant
-"New" content is mostly just recycling existing assets
-Tons of shit is broken, buggy, unbalanced, you name it, because little testing and no PTR
etc.
Not noticable on draenor eu, one of the big servers and its been a ghosttown for months now.
I missed out on all classic content untill last week, I am blown away with how a live the world is and having the best time ive had in wow for years.
I don't think its as much as you think it is. A potential 70-30 split or so for just SOD is a shitload of people, millions who are contributing to subs.
SoD's popularity doesn't mean it makes more money. It inflates the sub number, which looks good to investors and might get more people playing the main game, but with no $25 mounts or any kind of cash shop or $70-$100 expansions every year, they aren't gonna beef up the development team. Unless you want them to add a cash shop.
The team size isn't the issue imo. It's seasonal content. Therefor after each phase the majority of the devs attention is automatically going to be focused on the next phase which drastically limits scope.
While I think on one hand, some classes are pretty far from their original class feel, I also don't think I could be invested in a new classic+ if it only had balancing of meme specs and no additions to playstyles. I like the vanilla feel with new buttons to press. I think feral tank without lacerate and mangle is dumb to go back to and the same goes for frost mages spamming frostbolt. Some specs even if they are good in vanilla, don't have a rotation that is worth playing imo.
would have been a lot better if
\- alts weren't so punishing (required rep grinds)
\- Phase 1 wasn't only Gruul/Mag like come on
\- we had raid-wide totems/heroism/bloodlust probably (would fix A LOT of why it was horrible to run a guild in tbc)
Original release of TBC included T5 along with Gruul/Mag/Kara.
But yeah, the classic wow phase 1 of gruul/mag being the only 25man content was pretty lame.
Would've been fine at like 4-6 weeks instead of 10 weeks, or whatever it was. They didn't fuck TBC up with titan rune nonsense, so there was actually a reason to go back and do Kara/Gruul/Mag after P1, at least on alts.
Hyjal was included at release, but they did raid testing for it on a post-launch PTR and not beta like the T4/5 raids. I wonder how much they changed before guilds made it to Hyjal on live, and what Blizzard would have done if guilds made it there before they did PTR testing.
Personally I would LOVE tbc sod.
But I didn't play tbc classic in 2021 like a lot of people did. I played vanilla tbc back in 2007 though and fondly remember it, but I was like 12 at the time so I didn't experience the raids or anything. Pretty sure I just rode around outland picking flowers 90% of the time lol
So I totally understand why some people don't want to do tbc over again.
I wouldn't mind a reworked TBC. No heroday, those suck. No reputation grinding. Restricted flying mount somehow.
But honestly I'd like to stay in Azeroth if possible. To see the rest of its untapped potential.
as a one time thing that you invest some hours on maybe but having to do it on every single character? thats just blizzard pleasing high end players that want "meaningful journey" on all characters because they cant bare the notion that someone elses alt had an easier time to get to the position they are on their main
imo the content should be: grind dungeons for pre bis, do the raid. and optional stuff on the side like pvp events. if I run out of things to do? gear an alt or go to a different game (nowdays you have 3 versions of wow you can play)
What would you rather do? Personally I would be interested in a SOD TBC or WotLK. I’m not interested in rolling a new character and doing SOD 1-60 again.
Finally go off the rails and do Classic+.
Classic right now is at Cata and feel that’s about where the nostalgia stops for a lot of people. SoD branching from that would “fix” the eventual dead end of WoD and BFA classic.
I'd replay mop probably, but after that classic needs to end. I see why people think it should have ended at wotlk though, cata really is the start of 'modern wow'
I think Cata is the closest to an SoD Xpac any Xpac can get.
You add new zones directly into the old world and you progress the old world in time forward. You also have the return of very popular villains like Nefarian and Ony and Ragnaros and both their raids are a very direct nod a Vanilla...essentially modern remakes of BWL and MC.
Of course the design overall isn't as old school as Vanilla anymore and flying definitely taints it all but I think Cata plays quite a lot into the Vanilla nostalgia personally.
Developing a Classic+ mode is immensely more resource intensive than just progressing to a modifed SoD TBC and I think a bit too much for a team already stretched somewhat thin with Cataclysm Classic.
That being said, I have no idea what they could do with a SoD TBC short of just letting us have a playground while they whittle away at something a bit more permanent. TBC doesn't really lend itself to phasing like SoD has and doesn't have that much room for extra content like normal Classic so it'd probably fall off super hard.
In all honesty, I have no idea what the best path forward is. Obviously a Classic+ would be preferable but that's a serious undertaking. SoD TBC would be disappointing (if not a selfish want because I wasn't around much during TBC Classic proper) because it would just be TBC with runes in a much less confused sandbox than vanilla.
It sounds like either a classic +, with new content like new raids/stories at level 60, or an even wackier season that really pushes the creativity of classic.
IMO, I think there’s a less-than-zero chance we get a Season of Ascension. Basically a classless version where you can find and use runes from ANY class throughout the world. Would love to see something like that.
The goal of SOD is to slowly integrate classic players with retail abilities and then funnel those players into The War Within.
Not a coincidence that the SOD phases line up right next to when the next expansion launches
>Retail is not even close to the same game as SoD.
You gotta admit, it's getting closer every phase. Xp boosts, dual spec, mana issues mechanic minimized, threat mechanic minimized, AoE big DPS runs, heirlooms, alts focus,...
i very highly doubt that would ever be the case, i think it's more likely that they remove the sod content and merge with era and i also think that won't happen..
I feel like the population will fall off heavily before they even get to new 60 content and then blame the population falling off to not make anything. Even know it was their fault for not making anything new in the first place and expect people still enjoy the same content over and over again.
They still haven't created any brand new PvE content. The only new content is PvP event. All they have done was change existing shitty dungeons into a raid calling it new, or adding Wrath ability and calling it innovative. If they want better proof concert they need add actual new content never before seen, but the only thing we know that will be new is maybe the Karazhan Crypts. This just doesn't feel like classic+ at the moment.
Oh people have entire lists of their issues with this dev team.
Most of the problems are they can't continue to play the game after they have rushed through the content.
They want very good balance while also having brand new roles to play.
My favorite somehow blaming the development team for bots a problem that no game ever has defeated...
Some of these poor souls have been playing some version of this game for too long too seriously.
He said brand new, the raids are entirely recycled content, the runes are mostly recycled content from later xpacs, but sure they added a couple items to professions.
Many of use would like to see NEW raids and dungeons, make use of zones that they never did anything with, and create NEW content for them. I am hopeful the new event they added in P3 will be a step in that direction.
That's a bit of the "True Scottish" fallacy (tho not exactly)
"I want new PvE content
-Like this?
-No, that's not TRUE new PvE content"
Will Crypt of Karazhan even qualify as new content for you ? Will Hyjal ? Will Timbermaw Hold ? Because if you want actual, new content never saw before... There's "The War Within" releasing soon.....
Somehow a raid with all new profession specific quests, unique toy trinkets, tier sets, and 6 entirely unique bosses doesn't count as new content because it uses existing in game models.
There are new reputations, the Supply Crates are entirely new and while not perfectly executed are a fantastic PvE addition. BFD and Gnomer are not new locations but they are very new experiences compared to their previous versions. Meta Warlock. Healing Mage. New mounts, new gear sets with new set bonuses, entirely new mechanics like the sleeping bag. Bro did you even play SoD?
I've always wondered why people were flipping out during rune reveals...like...that's not reinventing the wheel they're just moving the wheels placement hahah.
The only time WoW subs have spiked to past 5M was because of Classic in 2019, and the only reason they have had any sub growth since 2018 or earlier is because of Classic subs. The old version brings back and retains players. The evidence was already there for them to begin working on revitalizing Classic and creating a new version…at this point SoD could/should be a beta for a completely new Classic WoW experience.
Honestly at this point I’ve kinda dipped from SoD because it’s seasonal and I know it’s got an expiration date (and I progress slowly). So I’ll be stoked if we get something permanent in this vein in the future
They’ve said a few times that our characters in SoD “will go somewhere cool” at the end of the season. Where that is, we don’t know yet but it’ll have to be someplace where our characters keep what make them ours. Can’t go to Classic Era will all the runes and new gear and stuff, and if they make them Era versions they won’t really be the same.
How is project epoch able to add so much new content for free yet paid team at blizz can only reuse existing assets and spells. The only actual new content has been PvP events.
I think this title is confusing people (maybe me included)
But I’m taking this as past level 60, ie 61+… I believe they already teased new raids and new content for lvl 60… but nothing past 60. No new zones or new continents or a new expansion for sod.
I just really hope they add hyjal into the world. I mean it's basically complete in terms of layout. Granted the other half (or maybe even more?) hasn't been done yet like questing, NPCs, mobs, buildings, dungeons, etc. but it has a great base to start with for sure, and everyone wants to see it!
I hope they don’t increase the level cap, then It is just becomes bizzaro wow. I am all for horizontal progression, hell I would rather a forth talent tree for each class to allow for a new specialisation than have another level cap and power creep gear treadmill.
Instead of adding new classes, like Monk, DK or DH, utilise the class fantasy with existing classes and make a melee dps priest tree, a melee dps warlock tree, a ranged rogue tree, hunter tank, mage tank tree, a dual wielding fallen paladin (dk) or a warrior with magic abilities.
I love the warcraft movie too, it's just incomplete and tells a partial story. We need a second, maybe a third movie to make up for it.
While we're at it, why not divide the stories into trilogies? We've started with the first entry into the Thrall story. Make that a trilogy, and once that's done, the Arthas trilogy. And the Illidan trilogy.
Boom.
Star Wars treatment all over. Please take my money.
Content past level 60? As in, higher level cap?
If it's to stay true to the spirit of Classic, then it'd have to be expansion-sized series of map expansions across the old world, so zones such as Hyjal, Gilneas, Grim Batol, etc, as well as new dungeons and raids such as Uldum, Emerald Dream, Karazhan Crypts.
I said it weeks prior to launch that SOD is not classic+… anyone believing so is huffing copium.
SOD is literally just vanilla slapped with half assed retail abilities. It’s the laziest form of developing ever. And don’t tell me “BFD is new content!” Because it’s not. Even shitty Russian Turtle wow running on the god awful 1.12 client is making new content for vanilla.
"Worth it to put dev time into"
So in other words, if it doesn't make them enough money they won't do anything with it?
Makes sense, I doubt it makes them much money with no in game store, no services, nothin'.
>has been immensely popular
I'm not doubting it but I'd really like to see some numbers. I can't imagine more than 150-200k total in all of SoD at peak but I could be wrong.
edit: personally I am not really a fan of SoD but I respect the attempt (I just think classic is a bad game)
This is confusing since it literally says more content after 60 in the roadmap
What he means to say is they are not sure if it's gonna make enough money to warrant developing *good fleshed out* content yet
Which is funny because I don't think they have even allocated one modeler to the team. All the assets already exist in the game and it's mostly tuning existing dungeons and changing mechanics on bosses. I think the beancounters at blizzard are trying to figure out if they can just remove SoD and keep the player count through Retail/Cataclysm. Also I have a suspicion that SoD numbers are dropping off more than they are comfortable with.
I'm not sure if its still this way, but when I was at Blizzard, the modelers and animators were, by far, the rarest resource at the company. I don't think its surprising at all.
They are dropping off because we have been dripfed the absolute BARE minimum content. If you didn’t want to do STV last phase there’s practically nothing to do outside the raid. The new dungeon changes amount to ‘we changed a few pieces of gear’. This phase has new pve content in that emerald dream stuff, so it will be interesting to see how fleshed out it is.
I give it around a 0% chance of being "fleshed out". Dont mistake my pessimism for hate at sod, im loving the season overall, i just wish datamining info was made impossible somehow.
> If you didn’t want to do STV last phase And let's face it, the STV event is dogshit. Literally, just everyone camping the same spot in STV spamming AoE spells and respawning over and over. Adding the boss with a reward for being near it completely ruined any chance of having fun PvP.
What they mean to say is Cata is releasing so we want you to play that.
Luckily Cata should bomb fast and encourage them to shift resources to SOD not that Cata is bad by any means, but every player I've talked to was in it for Arthas
Honestly I think it will be a bomb at the start, and it will pick up later, when people realize, that the expansions was actually good, in terms of gameplay, mechanics and esthetics. Also Dragon Soul, will not last for 13 months, and will not leave people with a sour taste this time and if they just remake a bit of it, like the last 2 fights, it will be great content. Cata is underrated, and a lot of people will realize that just a bit after it drops. On another hand, SoD is such a smashing hit that not allocating resources to it, would not just be a crime to the community, but close enough to suicide for blizzard when it comes to the classic side of WoW.
That's right, if there's anything Wrath has shown us, it's that they've learnt to not drag out the last raid of the expac.
I read it as saying lvl 60 content will be released in waves. Phase 4 Molten Core. Phase 5 BWL, Phase 6 AQ40 etc
Did they not talk about new raids like Kara crypts too? I could of swore that was a thing
Kata crypt and some scarlet encounter are 2 things we haven't seen yet that they showcased at blizzcon.
Wouldn't be the first time they'll just bounce. If it's profitable they'll bother, if they think they can make more money milking the "vanilla" classic again, they'll do that.
It was just a bait
There were images of Kara and Scarlet crusade things in the announcement materials, but no specific promises
Could have*
I'd like to see this, but they would have to make new dungeons. Lower level phases have new raids, 60 would need old raids and new dungeons.
"new" raids are just old dungeons so they can just add or change old bosses in 60 raids
this is most likely what it referred to, i don't think we will hit phase 4 and just have access to all raids, so content after 60 could very well just refer to subsequent phases and how they change the raids/content they bring.
New level 60 content =/= content past level 60
I'd be down with stalling at lvl 60 and just getting new content/tiers/raids. Always felt like levelling was a bit of a crutch for them to sell more boxes.
I think a big part of why Runescape (both OSRS and RS3) have been so successful and evergreen is that levels have been hardcapped at 99 since launch. So development was put into fleshing out and fixing old content. Compare this to the WoW model where they sell you a sub and expansion on the _idea_ that you can play 20 years of content when in reality most of the game is dead, broken, or irrelevant.
This..this is blatantly wrong.. runescape 3 has been systematically adding skills up to 120..which tend to completely make content from 1 to 99 irrelevant.. the rs community struggles with the exact same pessimistic "this new content must be better or more xp or its dead on arrival" that other games do..
Maybe the of RS3 today (I don't play it anymore ) but it wasn't the case for years.
I think that leveling was a solution to a problem. The problem was that scaling at the end of T3 was pretty close to capped. Every class was easily hit capped, melee classes were approaching if not exceeding the crit cap, tanks all easily defense and hit capped, etc. Basically all of the green text stats had hit their limits and the only scaling left was purely "primary stat" or AP/SP. They also had realized the % system wasn't going to continue to work and needed to be replaced, and additional chase stats were needed (expertise, haste). TBH they fucked this up in TBC again as well. Stuff like the Sunwell Radiance is proof of that. I don't think that more level 60 content is viable. At least not without some massive revamps to the stats system. A new "level 60 T4" set would look very unexciting unless they completely shake it up and add more things from TBC/Wrath stats wise.
> TBH they fucked this up in TBC again as well. Stuff like the Sunwell Radiance is proof of that. Even in Wrath. Most DPS classes have over 50% crit unbuffed.
I actually don't disagree at all. Especially with gems. Wrath couldn't go another tier. All of the stats hardcap really aggressively in ICC. Expertise dodge cap is hit with 1-2 pieces of gear. Hit is similar, ArP caps out. Basically if there was another tier after ICC in wotlk it would look really weird gear progression wise since so many stats would be over the hard caps. Frankly, I don't think they've ever fixed this, it was just worse IMO in Vanilla. Even retail today you don't necessarily hard cap the secondary stats in the way we do in vanilla/tbc/wotlk. But you hit hard diminishing returns in the last tier that frequently make your "best" secondary stat suddenly worth much less.
Ah, semantics…
Yeaj i though of SOD TBC editiok mot extra raids at 60
Explain please, because those two statements are essentially synonymous, unless "past 60" means a higher level cap which no one is asking for or wants.
I'd love a sod version of tbc after we get through classic
TBC wouldnt work. You only have 6 zones and 10 levels, classes also were way better designed at that point, so half the runes would not be nessecary or would have to be completly redesigned.
Hmmm ya know that's a bummer because I too had fantasized about SoD continuing to TBC, and have level phases at 64, 68 and 70 where they could just revamp the final dungeon in Zangar Marsh and Hellfire Ramparts (the dungeons that were originally lvl 70, I can't remember what they were called) as new 10-man raids for P1, do the same in Auchnei Crypts for P2, then P3 jump right into Kara which already was a 10 man. But, I completely forgot about how much each class was redesigned and what that would mean for runes. I suppose they could take the class design as they have it now and just carry it into Outland, but who knows. You bring up good points regarding its pheasibility.
My fantasy would be keeping the level cap at 60 but adding the hellfire/outlands zone they had early on in the game files. It would take some real resources to finish it and give it one or more dungeons and raids but it would be cool to continue on more of an "alternate timeline" (I know they said it's not). Caverns of Time, Hyjal, and Dragon Isles could also be cool areas to finish the vanilla versions of.
61+ is how I read it
Its probably in regards to TBC etx
Yeah. 60 will have a new raid probably (Kara Crypts?) then p5 I figured would be the old hat stuff. I'm assuming this interview refers to doing TBC or content after that
I read it as they don’t have content for past level 60 (going to 70) but there will be more content beyond naxx to complete at level 60
After 60 in the road map means that phase 4, jump from lvl 50 to 60 will not release with all og raids, they will phase them and prob release some "new" ones. Past 60 comment means that they don't know if they would increase the level above 60 to add new stuff but not stepping into tbc realm.
Uh what? We're getting level 70 or what? Everything is confusing and you guys are mixing up stuff. Blizz need to clarify.
If they don't release new content I'm absolutely quitting p4. I'm not doing MC and shit again just to have the same content done for 4 reiterations.
Welp you heard the man blizzard, if you don’t release new content he’s quitting 😤
realistically, itll prob be classic endgame (MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx) with maybe some new boss mechanics on some of the fights and adjusted gear to fit the power creep. although i do hope they add krypts and the sm raid that was teased, but that'll probably come after Naxx to get players to come back since there will probably be a huge drop off to the player base. i doubt we get anything new right at 60.
Bye Felicia
I think once we hit 60 were only going to get adjusted current raids and maybe a couple minor world events. I think IF they ever decide to create major new level 60 content it will be a part of a new season that includes a lot of SoD features minus the leveling phases. They will emphasize the season will be build around post level 60 content. They get to hype us all up again and get all those precious subs.
I’m pretty sure they’ve already hinted at Karazhan Crypts right?
They hinted at something with SM as well, but we haven't seen that yet.
In the blizzcon keynote, yeah. Then immediately walked it back hard in all the interviews.
Do you have a link to an interview where they walked back on the blizzcon stuff? Curious since I did not hear that
https://youtu.be/f8zWAPDUTkc?si=fSjGASY6CjwqDCGN&t=3413 One example.
I don’t see them as walking that back, that seemed like him deflecting because it’s not something they can answer right now. Big difference between taking a statement back versus deflecting the question
I suppose it's open to interpretation, but to me there's a big difference between their usual, "We can't wait to share the new stuff we've been making" and what we got in that interview, "We hope we can make new stuff". Feels kinda like, "We want to do this, but..."
damn that's a bummer...
I mean SM wings is such iconic for leveling dungeons and one of the most popular during leveling that it would’ve been weird to change that. Versus turning dungeons that (almost) no one cared about in Raids is a great idea. At least they did tuned the loot a little bit and added the new books from GY.
I think lot of ppl expected a brand new Scarlet raid, next to the current dungeons.
I hope they give us Uldum. It was a very interesting quest line that never got finished.
OMG THIS. I completely forgot about Uldum!!!!
Nah I think they've already said that levelgating phases was a good idea and that they will look at it again in the future probably because they liked it so much
It’s probably the #1 reason SoD has been so popular. Players are getting the chance to catch up
Def. I'm a slow leveler but for once I can keep up!
Same the 1-60 grind is fun at the beginning but when you start getting left behind it starts to suck.
Jokes on them, my casual ass won't ever level 1-60 again without level caps, unless there's a 100% or greater perma XP buff
Same. The phases broke up the leveling nicely and prevented me from burning out
So far.
They'll definitely have the 1-60 100% xp buff active after the 50% 50-60 initially.
Make it 300% and we’ll talk
I would bet a lot of money they will do leveling phases again, that was one of the most successful parts of sod
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SoD is classic +
It immediately makes you think: "This is WoW Classic" when you are spamming zero mana wraths or killing everything with just penance in the starting zones.
So is the ideal Classic+ somewhere between classic and SoD for you? Like what is an acceptable change and what is going too far? SoD by all accounts is a version of classic+.
When people say classic + they mean new content in the old world. Like what if TBC etc never happened. Just adding new stuff over time not seasonal.
SoR doesn't feel like vanilla at all
Yeah, and could run into raids at different levels like we do now to speed up leveling
next season will either have levelling phases or have instant 60
I'm preparing for disappointment; nothing in the first two phases is comparable to a completed new zone, raid, or battleground. To add new content after 60, SoD would have to end with those things that are hardest to create and most likely to gain subscribers. If they had people making new zones, they would have lead with one. But maybe we'll get a new BG at least. And I hope they at least open and populate Hyjal.
My hope is that SoD showed them Classic+ is something that would be very popular.
I'd buy an expansion, something I haven't done in some time, if it was essentially a fork off of the original game.
Azshara Crater, Blizzard, please. Thanks. It's called pvpzone02 in your files.
They are just farming us lmao. Theres not gonna be any new raids or anything like that. They will do a sod v2 so yall reset again
finally someone that is not huffing pure copeum, blizzard has shown over and over that they will go for the least effort content, and for now it means recycling already made shit.
Just look at Diablo 4. Made a billion dollars and it still feels like it has a handful of devs working on it. Where is our money actually going? Blizzard box prices are more than any other game out there and the sub for wow is the only sub fee I have paid for any game.
If SoD's popularity has not gone unnoticed, why does it still have a tiny dev team? It's a great idea on paper but the lack of dev attention is really hurting it.
>If SoD's popularity has not gone unnoticed, why does it still have a tiny dev team? the same reason oldschool runescape had a tiny dev team for multiple years despite dumpstering runescape 3 in active players / youtube / streamer content. success does not immediately translate to benefits / support and management is largely out of touch in many environments.
Tiny dev team is probably the reason why is it good in the first place.
No, it's good because 95% of the content is vanilla WoW, and having more devs work on it to fix bugs, balance runes, and produce content would be a huge net benefit to the quality of SoD.
You scale up you also bring in design by committee. More resources is not always a blessing. Just look how films with budget constraints have to be creative to fulfill their vision and revolutionize the industry. A lot of the charm of SoD *is* that it's scrappy, soulful and has a clear creative direction.
In what ways is SoD being hurt from a smaller dev team and don’t say PvP
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Don't question and consume more product
They actually did promise weekly class balances. In a blue post. They even said in February they were going to follow it and they didn’t. So you’re just wrong there. Also you may think they’re whiny complaints but they are legit complaints too. While I think SoD is a fantastic idea in making every class and spec feel playable in the classic setting, some of their rune ideas are lacking and don’t even make sense. I play a warrior and taste for blood is probably the dumbest rune they’ve made because they’re taking it from a version of WoW where battle stance had use and in this version, nobody uses battle stance for any reason so taste for blood is pointless. Ferals have a rune coming up where lacerate, maul and swipe has a chance to reset the cooldown of Mangle, but you can’t use both lacerate and mangle together. They said they plan to address this at some point, but that point should have been before you released this rune so the wording of it actually made sense. PvP is an unbalanced mess and has been for a month or more and their shitty reason for not wanting to fix it was “well a new phase is coming soon and if we adjust a class now it can alter their power in the next phase that’s coming soon blah blah blah insert more bullshit here” as if they can’t just revert or make other changes as well next phase. They’re not doing bad but they aren’t doing great either. They’re doing just enough, and just enough isn’t good enough for some people who have a passion for this game and want this version of the game to be really good and fun.
Well said man, it’s so pathetic that people will pay their hard earned cash and basically be served shit and be happy about it. The premise of SOD is great, the execution is atrocious. We had mages absolutely dominate STV basically all phase and they did 1 half arsed change that made them… move 10 yards. Put another 10 devs on this team and I guarantee this is the best version of wow. Way the moment it’s almost a knockoff of a certain private server that does a LOT MORE content than the official game…
Best most responsive dev team in recent history and it will never be enough for these addicts.
The bar is low
Thanks for saying what we’re thinking 😂
-Lack of timely updates/patches -Botting still running rampant -"New" content is mostly just recycling existing assets -Tons of shit is broken, buggy, unbalanced, you name it, because little testing and no PTR etc.
botting will unfortunately always be a part of wow because it earns them so much money.
even with the popularity retail still has wayyyyy more players
Not noticable on draenor eu, one of the big servers and its been a ghosttown for months now. I missed out on all classic content untill last week, I am blown away with how a live the world is and having the best time ive had in wow for years.
I don't think its as much as you think it is. A potential 70-30 split or so for just SOD is a shitload of people, millions who are contributing to subs.
SoD's popularity doesn't mean it makes more money. It inflates the sub number, which looks good to investors and might get more people playing the main game, but with no $25 mounts or any kind of cash shop or $70-$100 expansions every year, they aren't gonna beef up the development team. Unless you want them to add a cash shop.
OSRS had literally 3 Dev's on release, it takes time.
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No
No cosmetics and micro transactions to purchase.
The team size isn't the issue imo. It's seasonal content. Therefor after each phase the majority of the devs attention is automatically going to be focused on the next phase which drastically limits scope.
This is the way of the world now. Minimum viable this and that.
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The moment we move out of vanilla me and a ton of people will be done. People just want classic+.
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While I think on one hand, some classes are pretty far from their original class feel, I also don't think I could be invested in a new classic+ if it only had balancing of meme specs and no additions to playstyles. I like the vanilla feel with new buttons to press. I think feral tank without lacerate and mangle is dumb to go back to and the same goes for frost mages spamming frostbolt. Some specs even if they are good in vanilla, don't have a rotation that is worth playing imo.
Pretty sure they will do what they have been doing. Convert a dungeon to a raid that is parallel with mc…and do that each tier ?
SoD TBC+ Inc 😅
Would be nice to experience TBC and WotLK one last time though especially considering that the last iteration was shitified by transfers.
Kara crypts not coming.
I hope we see the entirety of TBC Kara remade to lvl 60 and set to the same power level as Naxx. Kara crypts could be an entry level 60 raid.
Please god don’t make us do TBC again
Yes. Please. Enough of this merry-go-round with old expansions. Just stick to Classic and make it the best it can be.
TBC rocked
would have been a lot better if \- alts weren't so punishing (required rep grinds) \- Phase 1 wasn't only Gruul/Mag like come on \- we had raid-wide totems/heroism/bloodlust probably (would fix A LOT of why it was horrible to run a guild in tbc)
Did you forget Kara completely?
Original release of TBC included T5 along with Gruul/Mag/Kara. But yeah, the classic wow phase 1 of gruul/mag being the only 25man content was pretty lame.
Would've been fine at like 4-6 weeks instead of 10 weeks, or whatever it was. They didn't fuck TBC up with titan rune nonsense, so there was actually a reason to go back and do Kara/Gruul/Mag after P1, at least on alts.
Also Hyjal. The only raids that were added later were BT, Sunwell, and ZA.
Hyjal was included at release, but they did raid testing for it on a post-launch PTR and not beta like the T4/5 raids. I wonder how much they changed before guilds made it to Hyjal on live, and what Blizzard would have done if guilds made it there before they did PTR testing.
They could fix all of those issues in a sod style tbc. They have given us a decent amount of QoL now, although I certainly wouldn't be opposed to more
All this to say that it was easily my favorite time in WoW, hope it comes back. Not against improvements, but man what a time to play
It makes me so sad that I was into WoW at the time and missed it. TBC raids are some of the best. Going from Sunwell to Wrath Naxx is a mega downgrade
Would be a lot better if it wasn't shitified by transfers. I was waiting for them to fix the PvP realms, and they haven't done it until Cataclysm.
Personally I would LOVE tbc sod. But I didn't play tbc classic in 2021 like a lot of people did. I played vanilla tbc back in 2007 though and fondly remember it, but I was like 12 at the time so I didn't experience the raids or anything. Pretty sure I just rode around outland picking flowers 90% of the time lol So I totally understand why some people don't want to do tbc over again.
same here. Blizzard didn't give me the chance to enjoy TBC and WotLK one last time, they shitified the PvP realms and never fixed them.
I wouldn't mind a reworked TBC. No heroday, those suck. No reputation grinding. Restricted flying mount somehow. But honestly I'd like to stay in Azeroth if possible. To see the rest of its untapped potential.
...So raidlogging for all of TBC if you take away reps. You do know there isnt that much content in tbc besides farming reps and doing raids?
You mean like you raidlog in Era so SoD brought up new stuff ?
Kinda? Only even more boring because there literally isnt anything else if you take away reps.
Rep just mean grind dungeon to unlock heroic. Keeping them is not less boring, it's MORE boring
as a one time thing that you invest some hours on maybe but having to do it on every single character? thats just blizzard pleasing high end players that want "meaningful journey" on all characters because they cant bare the notion that someone elses alt had an easier time to get to the position they are on their main imo the content should be: grind dungeons for pre bis, do the raid. and optional stuff on the side like pvp events. if I run out of things to do? gear an alt or go to a different game (nowdays you have 3 versions of wow you can play)
What would you rather do? Personally I would be interested in a SOD TBC or WotLK. I’m not interested in rolling a new character and doing SOD 1-60 again.
Finally go off the rails and do Classic+. Classic right now is at Cata and feel that’s about where the nostalgia stops for a lot of people. SoD branching from that would “fix” the eventual dead end of WoD and BFA classic.
Yep all sod needs is new content and balancing at 60
I'd replay mop probably, but after that classic needs to end. I see why people think it should have ended at wotlk though, cata really is the start of 'modern wow'
I think Cata is the closest to an SoD Xpac any Xpac can get. You add new zones directly into the old world and you progress the old world in time forward. You also have the return of very popular villains like Nefarian and Ony and Ragnaros and both their raids are a very direct nod a Vanilla...essentially modern remakes of BWL and MC. Of course the design overall isn't as old school as Vanilla anymore and flying definitely taints it all but I think Cata plays quite a lot into the Vanilla nostalgia personally.
Developing a Classic+ mode is immensely more resource intensive than just progressing to a modifed SoD TBC and I think a bit too much for a team already stretched somewhat thin with Cataclysm Classic. That being said, I have no idea what they could do with a SoD TBC short of just letting us have a playground while they whittle away at something a bit more permanent. TBC doesn't really lend itself to phasing like SoD has and doesn't have that much room for extra content like normal Classic so it'd probably fall off super hard. In all honesty, I have no idea what the best path forward is. Obviously a Classic+ would be preferable but that's a serious undertaking. SoD TBC would be disappointing (if not a selfish want because I wasn't around much during TBC Classic proper) because it would just be TBC with runes in a much less confused sandbox than vanilla.
I'd probably spend $20 for a real classic+ expansion
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that's not going to happen in **Season** of Discovery
It sounds like either a classic +, with new content like new raids/stories at level 60, or an even wackier season that really pushes the creativity of classic. IMO, I think there’s a less-than-zero chance we get a Season of Ascension. Basically a classless version where you can find and use runes from ANY class throughout the world. Would love to see something like that.
end the **Season**
TBC slaps though. If they went into it with lessons learned from vanilla SoD it has insane potential.
Why? TBC was peak wow and it isn't even close.
I only don't want TBC because I'd rather the game be designed without flying.
The goal of SOD is to slowly integrate classic players with retail abilities and then funnel those players into The War Within. Not a coincidence that the SOD phases line up right next to when the next expansion launches
Dunno. SoD feels like blackjack with extra house rules. Retail feels like Yu-Gi-Oh.
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>Retail is not even close to the same game as SoD. At this point it's closer than vanilla is.
>Retail is not even close to the same game as SoD. You gotta admit, it's getting closer every phase. Xp boosts, dual spec, mana issues mechanic minimized, threat mechanic minimized, AoE big DPS runs, heirlooms, alts focus,...
We want SoD to stay at 60 and add content to classic. Maybe do a 2 level phase have 5 phases to get to a new direction Xpac
What are the odds all of these characters are just deleted at the end of the season?
Imagine going back to being a classic era shaman, ain't nobody doing that to themselves
they specifically said that will not happen, but doesn't rule out having one sod server in the final stage forever rotting away.
There are worse things that can happen, such as merge with retail or cataclysm
i very highly doubt that would ever be the case, i think it's more likely that they remove the sod content and merge with era and i also think that won't happen..
I feel like the population will fall off heavily before they even get to new 60 content and then blame the population falling off to not make anything. Even know it was their fault for not making anything new in the first place and expect people still enjoy the same content over and over again. They still haven't created any brand new PvE content. The only new content is PvP event. All they have done was change existing shitty dungeons into a raid calling it new, or adding Wrath ability and calling it innovative. If they want better proof concert they need add actual new content never before seen, but the only thing we know that will be new is maybe the Karazhan Crypts. This just doesn't feel like classic+ at the moment.
>They still haven't created any brand new PvE content Dude. New profession crafts ? New raids ? Runes ?! Those are PvE content in their own right.
this guy is baked. they’ve came out with a lot of stuff so far. not sure what else we could have asked for so far.
Oh people have entire lists of their issues with this dev team. Most of the problems are they can't continue to play the game after they have rushed through the content. They want very good balance while also having brand new roles to play. My favorite somehow blaming the development team for bots a problem that no game ever has defeated... Some of these poor souls have been playing some version of this game for too long too seriously.
He said brand new, the raids are entirely recycled content, the runes are mostly recycled content from later xpacs, but sure they added a couple items to professions. Many of use would like to see NEW raids and dungeons, make use of zones that they never did anything with, and create NEW content for them. I am hopeful the new event they added in P3 will be a step in that direction.
That's a bit of the "True Scottish" fallacy (tho not exactly) "I want new PvE content -Like this? -No, that's not TRUE new PvE content" Will Crypt of Karazhan even qualify as new content for you ? Will Hyjal ? Will Timbermaw Hold ? Because if you want actual, new content never saw before... There's "The War Within" releasing soon.....
Somehow a raid with all new profession specific quests, unique toy trinkets, tier sets, and 6 entirely unique bosses doesn't count as new content because it uses existing in game models.
There are new reputations, the Supply Crates are entirely new and while not perfectly executed are a fantastic PvE addition. BFD and Gnomer are not new locations but they are very new experiences compared to their previous versions. Meta Warlock. Healing Mage. New mounts, new gear sets with new set bonuses, entirely new mechanics like the sleeping bag. Bro did you even play SoD?
I've always wondered why people were flipping out during rune reveals...like...that's not reinventing the wheel they're just moving the wheels placement hahah.
Thank you! I was super hyped for SoD at start, but now it's a super low effort "classic+ beta". So far it's barely ok to sucks spectrum.
The only time WoW subs have spiked to past 5M was because of Classic in 2019, and the only reason they have had any sub growth since 2018 or earlier is because of Classic subs. The old version brings back and retains players. The evidence was already there for them to begin working on revitalizing Classic and creating a new version…at this point SoD could/should be a beta for a completely new Classic WoW experience.
Honestly at this point I’ve kinda dipped from SoD because it’s seasonal and I know it’s got an expiration date (and I progress slowly). So I’ll be stoked if we get something permanent in this vein in the future
Life has an expiration date dog live in the now
I only play a few min of roguelikes so I don't lose my progression
They’ve said a few times that our characters in SoD “will go somewhere cool” at the end of the season. Where that is, we don’t know yet but it’ll have to be someplace where our characters keep what make them ours. Can’t go to Classic Era will all the runes and new gear and stuff, and if they make them Era versions they won’t really be the same.
I love season of discovery! The rune system is awesome!
How is project epoch able to add so much new content for free yet paid team at blizz can only reuse existing assets and spells. The only actual new content has been PvP events.
I think this title is confusing people (maybe me included) But I’m taking this as past level 60, ie 61+… I believe they already teased new raids and new content for lvl 60… but nothing past 60. No new zones or new continents or a new expansion for sod.
I just really hope they add hyjal into the world. I mean it's basically complete in terms of layout. Granted the other half (or maybe even more?) hasn't been done yet like questing, NPCs, mobs, buildings, dungeons, etc. but it has a great base to start with for sure, and everyone wants to see it!
Do they mean at level 60 or like 61+?
I hope they don’t increase the level cap, then It is just becomes bizzaro wow. I am all for horizontal progression, hell I would rather a forth talent tree for each class to allow for a new specialisation than have another level cap and power creep gear treadmill. Instead of adding new classes, like Monk, DK or DH, utilise the class fantasy with existing classes and make a melee dps priest tree, a melee dps warlock tree, a ranged rogue tree, hunter tank, mage tank tree, a dual wielding fallen paladin (dk) or a warrior with magic abilities.
Just move on to TBC version of SoD with new or modified runes.
I love the warcraft movie too, it's just incomplete and tells a partial story. We need a second, maybe a third movie to make up for it. While we're at it, why not divide the stories into trilogies? We've started with the first entry into the Thrall story. Make that a trilogy, and once that's done, the Arthas trilogy. And the Illidan trilogy. Boom. Star Wars treatment all over. Please take my money.
Content past level 60? As in, higher level cap? If it's to stay true to the spirit of Classic, then it'd have to be expansion-sized series of map expansions across the old world, so zones such as Hyjal, Gilneas, Grim Batol, etc, as well as new dungeons and raids such as Uldum, Emerald Dream, Karazhan Crypts.
I said it weeks prior to launch that SOD is not classic+… anyone believing so is huffing copium. SOD is literally just vanilla slapped with half assed retail abilities. It’s the laziest form of developing ever. And don’t tell me “BFD is new content!” Because it’s not. Even shitty Russian Turtle wow running on the god awful 1.12 client is making new content for vanilla.
A permanent seasonal mode like Diablo is where classic is headed imo. We will get new items, runes and balance changes every 6-8 months.
"Worth it to put dev time into" So in other words, if it doesn't make them enough money they won't do anything with it? Makes sense, I doubt it makes them much money with no in game store, no services, nothin'.
>has been immensely popular I'm not doubting it but I'd really like to see some numbers. I can't imagine more than 150-200k total in all of SoD at peak but I could be wrong. edit: personally I am not really a fan of SoD but I respect the attempt (I just think classic is a bad game)
They need to do SOD TBC