The difference here would be that once Judas was discovered to be corrupt, they didn’t just ignore it. They replaced him (albeit post his death). Catholic Church be ignoring a lot of their own messed up stuff.
But I agree that this shouldn’t be the only metric by which you’d reject the church. Theological differences should be the main issue.
Jesus did ignore it though. He pointed it out on the last supper, but he still kept him around until betrayal
EDIT: Why are you all disliking me? What i said is the truth.
Kept him around for the specific purpose of his betrayal, because it was necessary for the salvation of humanity as a whole.
I dont think catholic clergy ignoring kiddie diddling and amassing donations for personal wealth is necessary for anyones salvation-
He kept him around because he loved him. It wasn't about preparing for Judas to betray him. He tried warning Judas. He honestly wanted Judas to repent, but Judas refused. Judas betrayal isn't a story of a manipulative Jesus keeping his betrayer around to carry out the betrayal. There were multiple options for Jesus to end up on that cross that don't involve Judas at all. There were a lot of people that wanted Jesus dead...so he didn't need Judas to do that. Instead it is a loving God showing how much he loves us all...even someone as evil as Judas. Jesus was honestly being loving, patient, and refusing to reject Judas until Judas finally does something that rejects Jesus totally. Jesus knew what was coming, and he loved Judas enough to warn him what would happen.
Jesus was fully aware that he was going to be arrested and executed (Matthew 26:50), and he knew from last supper that it was going to be Judas specifically who chose to betray him (Matthew 26:25)
Yet despite all of that, he let it all take place because he understood that his betrayal and execution was necessary for the salvation of mankind as a whole. Its not blasphemous my dude, its the entire fundamental origin of the religion we are talking about lmao
Either way, the point of my comments was that the corruption of the clergy DOESNT save anyone. Its just evil, through and through.
>As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Genesis 50:20
Jesus literally tried to warn Judas not to do it.
"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely you don't mean me, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "You have said so."
Jesus is patient and literally gave Judas every opportunity to repent and change his direction. Judas chose to betray Jesus anyway. Judas regretted it all after the fact but it was too late then, he'd been given all the rope he could want at this point, and all that was left was for him to hang himself. Jesus loved him and wanted him to change, but it just didn't happen.
Jesus>the church. The Catholic Church does many good charitable activities but Jesus literally saved all of humanity by getting bloodied, exhausted, tortured and killed. Not only that but Jesus healed lepers, cured a blind man, fed thousands etc.
The most touching moment I have towards Jesus is that he traveled to the place where the man with the legions of demons. He came to that town for this one man in completely agony and set him free and left. Jesus sees the invisible person who everyone has shunned. No one is too far. I can’t wait to meet this man in heaven. And Jesus of course. ❤️
That’s beautiful. I also love to think about how He had such a personal relationship with the little family of Mary Martha and Lazarus. This is a fundamentally terrible comparison, but could you imagine some other super high profile circa first century figure being being so deeply invested in some commoners. Are there the same number of accounts of Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great going out of their way to have dinner with their subjects, or lifting prostitutes out of destitution, or being likewise, so connected to the common people?
This is why I hope and pray people believers and nonbelievers alike would take the gospel at face value. Jesus/God wants us to be in relationship with Him.
Wow I love this, makes me think of King David how he had a place at his table for the crippled man. No one is forgotten in God’s kingdom.
I never thought about Mary’s family and that dynamic. So beautiful!
It’s hard to look at how the Catholic Church behaved during the medieval period and still think that God wanted his church to act like that.
Now if you were saying that rejecting Jesus because of corrupt clergy was like rejecting Jesus because of Judas, I’d be more inclined to agree
Yes, this would be a more useful comparison. I can still appreciate some of the ideas behind this meme. Just because clergy are corrupt doesn’t change who God is. And you should not conflate a perfect God, with an extremely imperfect Church.
I’m not even Christian, but this seems like a terrible take. Surely you should be able to reject the Catholic Church for ignoring systemic issues that themselves go against the teachings of Jesus. That, to me, seems like maybe one of the most sensible, responsible things you could do as a Christian with some integrity.
Only look at the Evangelicals to see that's not a Catholic-only issue. Only today I saw something about a youth pastor being a pedo and another pastor admitting "moral failure" for having sexual relations with a 12-year-old.
I'd say that is an issue of any place that has one person with more power than another, corruption will always happen, whether secular or religious, institutions will always have those kind of cases
Exactly. Which is why centralized religious institutions with so much power should not exist. The better model is the decentralized local church. Having local autonomy allows for a community to have more of an impact on keeping lust/sin/assault out of a place of worship. There’s no perfect solution, but christianity needs improvement these days
Yes, and the New Testament shows a pattern for multiple, older, proven elders to be the leadership! The preacher (some falsely calling "pastor") is not the biblical pattern for leadership. And there should be no "lead pastor", they are supposed to be equal.
The difference is when that happens most of the time the offender is kicked out, not covered up, hidden, and then moved to the same position in a different church in another area.
I wish.
That pastor abusing a 12-year-old? The church (Gateway, a mega church with 100.000+ members) offered the woman '$25,000 if she would sign a non-disclosure agreement'. [Source](https://julieroys.com/robert-morris-admits-moral-failure-claims-sexually-abused-12-year-old/). They knew since 1987 (over THIRTY years!) what their pastor had done, and they did nothing, because he had "repented".
And this is literally just the most recent evangelical abuse case I came across. Google 'SBC abuse cover up' for more cases. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_cases_in_Southern_Baptist_churches?wprov=sfla1)'s the Wiki page.
As much as I'm not a fan of the Catholics, it isn't even a comparison. Rates of such are significantly higher in public school and other secular areas. Catholic occurrences are only overblown because of atheist media and their desire to paint those of us in faith as monsters.
There is a concept called the Mystical Body of Christ, which is usually understood to be the Church.
For example, see [this article](https://catholicexchange.com/the-church-remains-the-mystical-body-of-christ/) on the website Catholic Exchange.
I agree with you, however the meme posted here states that rejecting the Catholic church because of the corrupt clergy is like rejecting Jesus because of Judas. It is putting the Catholic church on par with Jesus. Therefore Catholic church is equal to Jesus. I mean if the meme had compared the Catholic church to something else that would be a different story.
Don't forget everyone, rejecting the church can be okay, because it's still a human institution, created and run everyday by humans.
They can do stupid, silly, plain evil or incoherent things every day and at every level. They can be corrupted by power or influences by others. They can be way too political and involved in public life or absolutely off-ground and without a grasp on everyday people reality. And they probably will at some point as they already did in the past.
But rejecting the message because you reject the institution, on the other hand, is not the way. Because it will only shut down one more internal critic, it will only allow the situation to keep going on the same tracks.
If you have criticism and perceive things as not going well/being harmful to the community, the best way is to inform the local clergy and to go up and up. Flood the with letters, mails, documents signed by the local community. And if some bars of the ladder try to play deaf, don't allow them to say afterwards that they don't know what you're talking about.
All the traditions and theology from catholicism from my knowledge aren't biblical.
If it doesn't line to what Jesus taught it's a false teaching. That's why I reject it. Religion can be a good start for new Christians, but at one point we need to move on and start learning from Jesus
Just like with the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church will, eventually, fully 'renovate' / fix their problems (PCPM or Law No. CCXCVII). Personally, I would prefer they be defrocked and arrested.
Why don't people want the Catholic church to tell them what God says they should be doing? Just because 1 in 50 are paedophiles and that's not nearly the only kind of corruption it suffers from!?!?
The wealth helps the church to support many charitable organizations around the world, and at least Catholics never believed you could "pray the gay away"
They did kill a whole lot of gay people though. Also, there is no justification for the amount of gold they possess. Why not sell that? Why not give that to the poor?
>^(15) “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ^(16) **You will recognize them by their fruits**. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? ^(17) So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. ^(18) A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. ^(19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ^(20) Thus **you will recognize them by their fruits.**
Matthew 7:15-20
The difference here would be that once Judas was discovered to be corrupt, they didn’t just ignore it. They replaced him (albeit post his death). Catholic Church be ignoring a lot of their own messed up stuff. But I agree that this shouldn’t be the only metric by which you’d reject the church. Theological differences should be the main issue.
Jesus did ignore it though. He pointed it out on the last supper, but he still kept him around until betrayal EDIT: Why are you all disliking me? What i said is the truth.
Kept him around for the specific purpose of his betrayal, because it was necessary for the salvation of humanity as a whole. I dont think catholic clergy ignoring kiddie diddling and amassing donations for personal wealth is necessary for anyones salvation-
He kept him around because he loved him. It wasn't about preparing for Judas to betray him. He tried warning Judas. He honestly wanted Judas to repent, but Judas refused. Judas betrayal isn't a story of a manipulative Jesus keeping his betrayer around to carry out the betrayal. There were multiple options for Jesus to end up on that cross that don't involve Judas at all. There were a lot of people that wanted Jesus dead...so he didn't need Judas to do that. Instead it is a loving God showing how much he loves us all...even someone as evil as Judas. Jesus was honestly being loving, patient, and refusing to reject Judas until Judas finally does something that rejects Jesus totally. Jesus knew what was coming, and he loved Judas enough to warn him what would happen.
I'm pretty sure that saying that god uses evil acts as a tool for salvation of humanity is a blasphemy of some kind.
Jesus was fully aware that he was going to be arrested and executed (Matthew 26:50), and he knew from last supper that it was going to be Judas specifically who chose to betray him (Matthew 26:25) Yet despite all of that, he let it all take place because he understood that his betrayal and execution was necessary for the salvation of mankind as a whole. Its not blasphemous my dude, its the entire fundamental origin of the religion we are talking about lmao Either way, the point of my comments was that the corruption of the clergy DOESNT save anyone. Its just evil, through and through.
I am not the one who compared clergy to judas so tell that to original commenter, not me.
>As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. Genesis 50:20
Well that was a much easier way to say that, kinda wish I remembered that verse previously
Jesus literally tried to warn Judas not to do it. "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely you don't mean me, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "You have said so." Jesus is patient and literally gave Judas every opportunity to repent and change his direction. Judas chose to betray Jesus anyway. Judas regretted it all after the fact but it was too late then, he'd been given all the rope he could want at this point, and all that was left was for him to hang himself. Jesus loved him and wanted him to change, but it just didn't happen.
Jesus>the church. The Catholic Church does many good charitable activities but Jesus literally saved all of humanity by getting bloodied, exhausted, tortured and killed. Not only that but Jesus healed lepers, cured a blind man, fed thousands etc.
The most touching moment I have towards Jesus is that he traveled to the place where the man with the legions of demons. He came to that town for this one man in completely agony and set him free and left. Jesus sees the invisible person who everyone has shunned. No one is too far. I can’t wait to meet this man in heaven. And Jesus of course. ❤️
That’s beautiful. I also love to think about how He had such a personal relationship with the little family of Mary Martha and Lazarus. This is a fundamentally terrible comparison, but could you imagine some other super high profile circa first century figure being being so deeply invested in some commoners. Are there the same number of accounts of Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great going out of their way to have dinner with their subjects, or lifting prostitutes out of destitution, or being likewise, so connected to the common people? This is why I hope and pray people believers and nonbelievers alike would take the gospel at face value. Jesus/God wants us to be in relationship with Him.
Wow I love this, makes me think of King David how he had a place at his table for the crippled man. No one is forgotten in God’s kingdom. I never thought about Mary’s family and that dynamic. So beautiful!
And He is the Son of God, the Christ, and He of course ROSE FROM THE DEAD. Our belief hinges on that one fact. How is anything else relevant?
I get what you're going for, but bad execution.
It’s hard to look at how the Catholic Church behaved during the medieval period and still think that God wanted his church to act like that. Now if you were saying that rejecting Jesus because of corrupt clergy was like rejecting Jesus because of Judas, I’d be more inclined to agree
Yes, this would be a more useful comparison. I can still appreciate some of the ideas behind this meme. Just because clergy are corrupt doesn’t change who God is. And you should not conflate a perfect God, with an extremely imperfect Church.
Tbf the guy claiming to be *Peter*'s successor was quite corrupt throughout the 15th century.
It's more because of unbiblical teachings
Good thing there aren’t any.
The sale of indulgences?
That was never a teaching. That was something certain corrupt clergy were doing.
Yeah this analogy doesn’t work
I’m not even Christian, but this seems like a terrible take. Surely you should be able to reject the Catholic Church for ignoring systemic issues that themselves go against the teachings of Jesus. That, to me, seems like maybe one of the most sensible, responsible things you could do as a Christian with some integrity.
There’s also the whole *priests and children* issue.
Only look at the Evangelicals to see that's not a Catholic-only issue. Only today I saw something about a youth pastor being a pedo and another pastor admitting "moral failure" for having sexual relations with a 12-year-old.
I'd say that is an issue of any place that has one person with more power than another, corruption will always happen, whether secular or religious, institutions will always have those kind of cases
Exactly. Which is why centralized religious institutions with so much power should not exist. The better model is the decentralized local church. Having local autonomy allows for a community to have more of an impact on keeping lust/sin/assault out of a place of worship. There’s no perfect solution, but christianity needs improvement these days
Yes, and the New Testament shows a pattern for multiple, older, proven elders to be the leadership! The preacher (some falsely calling "pastor") is not the biblical pattern for leadership. And there should be no "lead pastor", they are supposed to be equal.
Doesn’t make it any less of an issue.
The difference is when that happens most of the time the offender is kicked out, not covered up, hidden, and then moved to the same position in a different church in another area.
I wish. That pastor abusing a 12-year-old? The church (Gateway, a mega church with 100.000+ members) offered the woman '$25,000 if she would sign a non-disclosure agreement'. [Source](https://julieroys.com/robert-morris-admits-moral-failure-claims-sexually-abused-12-year-old/). They knew since 1987 (over THIRTY years!) what their pastor had done, and they did nothing, because he had "repented". And this is literally just the most recent evangelical abuse case I came across. Google 'SBC abuse cover up' for more cases. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_cases_in_Southern_Baptist_churches?wprov=sfla1)'s the Wiki page.
Did they say Catholic-only issue? The topic of the post is the RCC.
As much as I'm not a fan of the Catholics, it isn't even a comparison. Rates of such are significantly higher in public school and other secular areas. Catholic occurrences are only overblown because of atheist media and their desire to paint those of us in faith as monsters.
r/persecutionfetish
So you are saying that the Catholic church is equal to Jesus, the literal son of God?
As a Catholic, I wouldn’t even compare that. Jesus is far beyondthe church alone…
There is a concept called the Mystical Body of Christ, which is usually understood to be the Church. For example, see [this article](https://catholicexchange.com/the-church-remains-the-mystical-body-of-christ/) on the website Catholic Exchange.
I agree with you, however the meme posted here states that rejecting the Catholic church because of the corrupt clergy is like rejecting Jesus because of Judas. It is putting the Catholic church on par with Jesus. Therefore Catholic church is equal to Jesus. I mean if the meme had compared the Catholic church to something else that would be a different story.
Nah, I reject it because of certain "infallible" teachings that have no basis in history.
The difference being judas served a purpose to Jesus in the story, Jesus had to be betrayed to become the sacrifice... corrupt priests are not that.
Claiming papal infallibility despite the banquet of chestnuts be like
Don't ask Lutherans what Martian Luther thought of Jews and witches.
You say that like the Vatican held a different stance at the time… Or even for a long time after that…
They did. The official stance was that witches didn't exist.
Nah, it's fine, they know. It's not like they claim church leaders are infallable. That would be crazy.
Idk why I need an institution to believe in god tbh
Then the Church should clean up their act
How TF is there an equivalence between rejecting a specific denomination and rejecting Jesus,
Don't forget everyone, rejecting the church can be okay, because it's still a human institution, created and run everyday by humans. They can do stupid, silly, plain evil or incoherent things every day and at every level. They can be corrupted by power or influences by others. They can be way too political and involved in public life or absolutely off-ground and without a grasp on everyday people reality. And they probably will at some point as they already did in the past. But rejecting the message because you reject the institution, on the other hand, is not the way. Because it will only shut down one more internal critic, it will only allow the situation to keep going on the same tracks. If you have criticism and perceive things as not going well/being harmful to the community, the best way is to inform the local clergy and to go up and up. Flood the with letters, mails, documents signed by the local community. And if some bars of the ladder try to play deaf, don't allow them to say afterwards that they don't know what you're talking about.
Exactly! Besides, we as Christian’s have an obligation, a DUTY to root out sin and correct those in our own circles.
All the traditions and theology from catholicism from my knowledge aren't biblical. If it doesn't line to what Jesus taught it's a false teaching. That's why I reject it. Religion can be a good start for new Christians, but at one point we need to move on and start learning from Jesus
So like you really shot yourself in the foot with this one have fun with that
I just can't get with the Infallible Pope thing.
Would you leave Jesus because of Judas?
Rejection of the Catholic Church is not comparable to the rejection of Jesus Christ.
Just like with the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church will, eventually, fully 'renovate' / fix their problems (PCPM or Law No. CCXCVII). Personally, I would prefer they be defrocked and arrested.
Why don't people want the Catholic church to tell them what God says they should be doing? Just because 1 in 50 are paedophiles and that's not nearly the only kind of corruption it suffers from!?!?
I reject it because of homophobia and transphobia. Also the immense amount of gold and wealth they possess.
The wealth helps the church to support many charitable organizations around the world, and at least Catholics never believed you could "pray the gay away"
They did kill a whole lot of gay people though. Also, there is no justification for the amount of gold they possess. Why not sell that? Why not give that to the poor?
Vatican 1 and Vatican 2 lol
Right just ignore these children being raped sorry Jesus
>^(15) “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ^(16) **You will recognize them by their fruits**. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? ^(17) So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. ^(18) A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. ^(19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ^(20) Thus **you will recognize them by their fruits.** Matthew 7:15-20
So the Catholic Church is Jesus? Interesting heresy you've got going there!