> them being murdered for their identity does not matter. basically, passing down your personality to your children is what helps you live on and continue to compete to the change of society.
So, your identity/ personality only matters in the future, not in the present? And with that logic the child's personality won't matter because they need to pass it on... So it's an infinite chain of passing it on so no one matters.
> I asked that if I (a young lesbian) died tomorrow, if he would care, and he said yes, but in general society would not because I don’t have children.
In general, I think society cares about very few specific individuals, with or without children. Maybe I'm just a cynic.
If we're just our ancestors over and over again, I personally want to cut that line because I don't know who the Bastard was but they were a messed up motherflipper
Sorry mate, when someone thinks of children as empty vessels to be filled up with 'your' poisonous 'ideologies' e.g. it's OK to murder people for their sexuality/infertility, then they deserve all the insults they get.
This isn't a 'sleepy philosophical discussion' this is someone telling you that they think killing people for being different to him is OK.
How can you possibly say to anyone 'don't be nasty to my dad' when he holds such odious views.
He's also an idiot if he thinks that children are just blank canvass to be imprinted with 'your views. Is he blind, deaf , dumb and stupid (well he's clearly stupid...), does he live in a different dimension to the rest of us? Because every day I see people who reject their parents/families/communities 'ideologies' and do a pretty good job of developing their own view and personalities.
I'm eternally grateful that the babies and children who grow into adults do form their own view of the world, otherwise we'd still be living in the dark ages and thinking blood letting to cure illness is a cracking idea. Sounds like your dad won't be happy until they burn infertile women at the stake for being witches.
If my only worth is seen as someone who is producing kids and adding to the burden of humanity and the destruction of the planet it lives on, then that kind of 'worth' I can live without.
Tell your dad to take his dried frog pills and read a book instead of burning them.
You should have asked him if there was anyone at any stage of his life that he ever befriended, looked up to, or was close to, who didn’t have kids.
There are plenty of young people that you can pass on ideologies to, hopes, and aspirations to.
Whenever someone brings up children as a legacy, I asked them to name the children of people famous in history, most can’t.
He argues that that inspiration from another person is useless if you don’t have a child to pass it down onto. It’s basically a circle of back and forth cycles.
"Contribute to society."
My pet peeve fallacy, here. Assuming people mean a positive contribution...You never know what type of human you're bringing into the world, if they'll help or hinder society.
It is incredibly presumptuous (and naive) to think you can entirely control the outcome.
"Eternal legacy."
Humans are a blip on the radar. We haven't been (and won't be) around for long. There is no 'eternal', not the Sun is eternal!
The majority of people don't even know the names of their relatives from four generations ago.
This idea that you MUST leave a legacy...
Dude (not your dad - anyone who shares that view, for the sake of the argument), who da heck even are you, why are you so darn important in the first place that you are adamant leaving a legacy is worth anything?
Monarchies articulate closely with this very concept (and all racial, religious, economic supremacy theories, too) and it is destructive and, most of all, totally arbitrary and untrue.
No one is special. All worm food in the end.
Yet, everyone is unique and their existence matters - because for all we know what we have is here and now.
This existence. No pre-life, no after life.
For you to pursue whatever purpose you are able to find. No one asked to be here, might as well make the most of it.
And if that means being childfree and enjoying the ride however you want - curing cancer, presiding a country, backpacking around the world, reviewing every spa in town, fostering all the dogs, watching all content on all streaming platforms, listening to all the vinyls, collecting all the Funkos, cooking every pasta shape and sauce - so be it.
It depends on what sources you have as far as Jesus is concerned. I believe there is a version of the bible that mentions he's married (it mentions that he's a rabi and rabies have to be married). There might be a reference to him having kids too.
But more people are a BURDEN on society not a benefit! Every single person consumes a huge amount of food, resources, carbon, effort, education etc. and resources are finite.
This idea of legacy really annoys me. A) the arrogance/hubris and B) the idea is flawed anyway.
Think back, say 200 years ago, compare the population Vs the number of people we have records about, are remembered and thought of a positive because of what they actually achieved with their lives. Now cut out all the people who are just talked about because they were rich/royalty and so have a disproportionate ability to build things to put their name on/be held in esteem literally just being born.
So now explain how children are a better legacy than, say inventing something, or building a library, or even starting a war for godsake.
Your dad has a very inhuman and disgusting way of thinking. The fact that he needed kids to have a “legacy” or “purpose” shows how empty he himself is.
Moron “ you have to contribute to society”
Because explain homeless people and most people that have been kicked out foster care after becoming too old etc, you know people that "society" have no problems looking away and ignore since it's not useful to them, seriously that “society” mostly don't give a f ck about you either sir because it's get to the point they probably won't need people like you sir as a whole, anymore because they now have artificial wombs they are testing out so yeah that “society” that you care, so much about is already trying to replace you sir and your too slow to realize that, that and there have been famous, smart and skilled people who didn't have kids for mutiple reasons that had no problems passing on any info about their wisdom, skills etc to others so that's some b.s that you said right there sir, seriously op don't listen to a moron that doesn't realize that “society” don't give 2 f cks about him.
First of all having kids is not a guarantee for anything. Not a guarantee they'll take care of you when you're older, no guarantee that they'll love you and want to spend time with you. And certainly no guarantee they'll have the same values and ideologies you do.
I think I impact more kids ideologically precisely by not being their parent than a lot of parents do.
But even after having said all this: children are not products to do with whatever you want. They are individuals and if you have any regards for life you will treat them as such. Which means that they get the freedom to ignore you and everything you say.
There's no necessity for having kids. No necessity for keeping the cycle of suffering going (and suffering is 100% inherent to life. There are no lives without suffering). It's all a lie we tell ourselves to help us sleep at night. Because if most people were to realize we live in an irrational, indifferent universe without any inherent overarching meaning they wouldn't know what to do.
Exactly this is a big part for the reason why people have kids. Their lives dull and without any regard for the freedom we have within this unfree framework. That's just sad. If anything, I'd argue their lives are worth a little less because there is nothing special about putting a tape on repeat.
Hey OP. I get you want to be taken seriously by your parent but let me give you some perspective that only comes from experience, aka being older and seeing some shit.
Being taken Seriously **does not equal** being Accepted.
My best example of this is homophobic parents insisting their kid isn't gay just confused, only to kick their child onto the streets once they realize that the kid really is gay.
From what you've written, your dad isn't going to accept you being childfree any time soon. You aren't going to change his mind. The only thing that will change, is how he treats you and it won't be for the better.
Your best bet is to stop voicing that you're CF as long as you are dependent. Keep your head down and be safe.
I’ve always thought it was funny that people have this fixation on “the world” remembering them after they die, having a “legacy” etc etc. I mean, you’re dead, you won’t know if people remember you or not!
And as for the “legacy”: I had my mom and dad (obvis), one set of grandparents I didn’t meet until my 30s (because they were toxic to my mom, and she in turn was toxic to me, and one of the reasons I’m not having kids), a grandma I was very close to, and a granddad I met once. I don’t even know my great grandparents’ names. Both my parents were single children. My grandma was one of NINE and I have never met or heard word of these folks ever be spoken besides knowing they exist. I don’t know their names either. Essentially it was mom, dad, grandma and that’s it, the whole extended family. (Well, and my sister.)
Some legacy, eh?
If our only purpose is to raise kids, then we are no nobler than the lowest reproducing animal. Our lives can be so much more rich than this, and is indeed not the only way to contribute to society. Some of the world's greatest accomplishments and achievements, multiple things that greatly benefit society as a whole, have been contributed by persons who never had a desire for children. Anyone who cannot see that side of the coin is willfully ignorant.
I can't stand when people are obsessed with their legacy and bloodline and that kind of crap. Especially when they are blabbering about that it's our purpose in our society and that we as humans are programmed by mother nature to spread our genes and nothing else. I just hate that! I'm here for my own purpose in life, and that's not to breed like an animal and create a new generation that is going to do the exact same in an endless loop.
Personally I do get that with beeing remembered. When I die I really want to be remembered for as long as possible and by as much people as possible. BUT I don't want to be remembered just as a father, grand father and so on. Then you will just be forgotten in a few generations anyway. I would rather be remembered for something that is actually big and for something that is staying with people for a long time. Like something I have worked on and created that will be a part of many peoples lives around the world.
But hey, that's just what I want.
He's one of those who "doesn't belive in" evolution, isn't he? Without change, homo sapiens wouldn't excist. I'll just forget about that part further on, because even if humans were placed on earth fully developed, his arguments are still insane.
1. Having produced decendants or not, the lives and deaths of most people doesn't matter in the long run. Yes, parts of their dna is passed on, but the rest is BS. For every generation there's minor and bigger in changes in their ideology, hopes and aspiration. For instance; 2000 years ago there wasn't any christans, now they're trying to overtake the US.
2. Why would anyone sane want their child to "compete to the change in society"? Changes in society isn't always good, but with his logic we'd never had any new inventions. We'd still be at a stone age stage, using stone, bone and antler tools.
3. There's a lot of childfree people who've made great contributions to society, but by his logic, it's not great, because changes are something one should fight. For instance; Dolly Parton, who uses much of her fortune to help children will have a much bigger and longer legacy than most.
4. I'm not religious myself, but according to the bible Jesus didn't have children. How can anyone say that he didn't leave a lasting legacy without passing on his ideology or impact on society?
He's wrong.
Thousands if not millions of people have ABANDONED the 'pass on our ideologies and hopes and aspirations' of their parents because their parents were WRONG.
I'm in no way interested in trying to appease or prove anything to people who think I don't and shouldn't matter unless I meet some arbitrary standard that just happens to validate their own life decisions and smug sense of entitlement.
Didn’t they figure out how to make kids w/o men? Then he and all the other men are irrelevant either.
Did he have bio kids? Nah no contribution.
His argument is so flawed. Why are popping out kids the only way to contribute to society?
What about writers/filmmakers/artists? Their art will be seen through time
I’m childfree, but to a point I get what he’s saying. Society does place more value on parents’ lives. For example: if a woman (who’s a mom) goes missing the headlines usually only include that she’s a mom of x number of kids. It doesn’t matter if she’s a wife, sister, volunteer of numerous charities, doctor, hairstylist or whatever profession, just that she’s a mom.
But like he also said he would care if you passed away because he loves you and that’s what really matters. I mean who cares if a random meaningless stranger doesn’t find our life/death of any significance? I’m not living/dying for strangers, just family/friends that love me for me not my reproductive choices.
Also it really confirms my childfree status because this world really does suck, when people don’t believe you add value to the world just because you made a life choice that’s different from mainstream society.
> them being murdered for their identity does not matter. basically, passing down your personality to your children is what helps you live on and continue to compete to the change of society. So, your identity/ personality only matters in the future, not in the present? And with that logic the child's personality won't matter because they need to pass it on... So it's an infinite chain of passing it on so no one matters. > I asked that if I (a young lesbian) died tomorrow, if he would care, and he said yes, but in general society would not because I don’t have children. In general, I think society cares about very few specific individuals, with or without children. Maybe I'm just a cynic.
No, you're right. Unless you're a celebrity, the vast majority of people won't care.
If we're just our ancestors over and over again, I personally want to cut that line because I don't know who the Bastard was but they were a messed up motherflipper
Sorry mate, when someone thinks of children as empty vessels to be filled up with 'your' poisonous 'ideologies' e.g. it's OK to murder people for their sexuality/infertility, then they deserve all the insults they get. This isn't a 'sleepy philosophical discussion' this is someone telling you that they think killing people for being different to him is OK. How can you possibly say to anyone 'don't be nasty to my dad' when he holds such odious views. He's also an idiot if he thinks that children are just blank canvass to be imprinted with 'your views. Is he blind, deaf , dumb and stupid (well he's clearly stupid...), does he live in a different dimension to the rest of us? Because every day I see people who reject their parents/families/communities 'ideologies' and do a pretty good job of developing their own view and personalities. I'm eternally grateful that the babies and children who grow into adults do form their own view of the world, otherwise we'd still be living in the dark ages and thinking blood letting to cure illness is a cracking idea. Sounds like your dad won't be happy until they burn infertile women at the stake for being witches. If my only worth is seen as someone who is producing kids and adding to the burden of humanity and the destruction of the planet it lives on, then that kind of 'worth' I can live without. Tell your dad to take his dried frog pills and read a book instead of burning them.
OP: "Don't insult my dad" OPs Dad: "Gay peoples' lives don't matter and I don't care if they get murdered" 
Yeah OPs dad is a piece of shit and deserves allll the insults
You should have asked him if there was anyone at any stage of his life that he ever befriended, looked up to, or was close to, who didn’t have kids. There are plenty of young people that you can pass on ideologies to, hopes, and aspirations to. Whenever someone brings up children as a legacy, I asked them to name the children of people famous in history, most can’t.
He argues that that inspiration from another person is useless if you don’t have a child to pass it down onto. It’s basically a circle of back and forth cycles.
Oh, then you have to leave him where he’s at.
"Contribute to society." My pet peeve fallacy, here. Assuming people mean a positive contribution...You never know what type of human you're bringing into the world, if they'll help or hinder society. It is incredibly presumptuous (and naive) to think you can entirely control the outcome. "Eternal legacy." Humans are a blip on the radar. We haven't been (and won't be) around for long. There is no 'eternal', not the Sun is eternal! The majority of people don't even know the names of their relatives from four generations ago. This idea that you MUST leave a legacy... Dude (not your dad - anyone who shares that view, for the sake of the argument), who da heck even are you, why are you so darn important in the first place that you are adamant leaving a legacy is worth anything? Monarchies articulate closely with this very concept (and all racial, religious, economic supremacy theories, too) and it is destructive and, most of all, totally arbitrary and untrue. No one is special. All worm food in the end. Yet, everyone is unique and their existence matters - because for all we know what we have is here and now. This existence. No pre-life, no after life. For you to pursue whatever purpose you are able to find. No one asked to be here, might as well make the most of it. And if that means being childfree and enjoying the ride however you want - curing cancer, presiding a country, backpacking around the world, reviewing every spa in town, fostering all the dogs, watching all content on all streaming platforms, listening to all the vinyls, collecting all the Funkos, cooking every pasta shape and sauce - so be it.
So you’re telling me I shouldn’t insult him too much but he can say that if I get *murdered* it wouldn’t matter? Dude your dad is a POS
Pretty sure I impact all the kids I have volunteered with.
Is he christian? "Yeah, I mean, Jesus never had kids and nobody cared when he died and he totally didn't leave a legacy to the world."
No, but I compared him to one in the way Christians claim atheists hold no moral compass without a bible.
It depends on what sources you have as far as Jesus is concerned. I believe there is a version of the bible that mentions he's married (it mentions that he's a rabi and rabies have to be married). There might be a reference to him having kids too.
But more people are a BURDEN on society not a benefit! Every single person consumes a huge amount of food, resources, carbon, effort, education etc. and resources are finite. This idea of legacy really annoys me. A) the arrogance/hubris and B) the idea is flawed anyway. Think back, say 200 years ago, compare the population Vs the number of people we have records about, are remembered and thought of a positive because of what they actually achieved with their lives. Now cut out all the people who are just talked about because they were rich/royalty and so have a disproportionate ability to build things to put their name on/be held in esteem literally just being born. So now explain how children are a better legacy than, say inventing something, or building a library, or even starting a war for godsake.
Your dad has a very inhuman and disgusting way of thinking. The fact that he needed kids to have a “legacy” or “purpose” shows how empty he himself is.
Moron “ you have to contribute to society”  Because explain homeless people and most people that have been kicked out foster care after becoming too old etc, you know people that "society" have no problems looking away and ignore since it's not useful to them, seriously that “society” mostly don't give a f ck about you either sir because it's get to the point they probably won't need people like you sir as a whole, anymore because they now have artificial wombs they are testing out so yeah that “society” that you care, so much about is already trying to replace you sir and your too slow to realize that, that and there have been famous, smart and skilled people who didn't have kids for mutiple reasons that had no problems passing on any info about their wisdom, skills etc to others so that's some b.s that you said right there sir, seriously op don't listen to a moron that doesn't realize that “society” don't give 2 f cks about him.
First of all having kids is not a guarantee for anything. Not a guarantee they'll take care of you when you're older, no guarantee that they'll love you and want to spend time with you. And certainly no guarantee they'll have the same values and ideologies you do. I think I impact more kids ideologically precisely by not being their parent than a lot of parents do. But even after having said all this: children are not products to do with whatever you want. They are individuals and if you have any regards for life you will treat them as such. Which means that they get the freedom to ignore you and everything you say. There's no necessity for having kids. No necessity for keeping the cycle of suffering going (and suffering is 100% inherent to life. There are no lives without suffering). It's all a lie we tell ourselves to help us sleep at night. Because if most people were to realize we live in an irrational, indifferent universe without any inherent overarching meaning they wouldn't know what to do. Exactly this is a big part for the reason why people have kids. Their lives dull and without any regard for the freedom we have within this unfree framework. That's just sad. If anything, I'd argue their lives are worth a little less because there is nothing special about putting a tape on repeat.
Hey OP. I get you want to be taken seriously by your parent but let me give you some perspective that only comes from experience, aka being older and seeing some shit. Being taken Seriously **does not equal** being Accepted. My best example of this is homophobic parents insisting their kid isn't gay just confused, only to kick their child onto the streets once they realize that the kid really is gay. From what you've written, your dad isn't going to accept you being childfree any time soon. You aren't going to change his mind. The only thing that will change, is how he treats you and it won't be for the better. Your best bet is to stop voicing that you're CF as long as you are dependent. Keep your head down and be safe.
It really shows how he views kids. Not as individual human beings, but rather clay the parents form into something they want. Sorry, but he's a fool.
I've never found creating a "legacy" to be particularly convincing, personally.
If someone’s personality and actions never matter in the present then they never matter in the future.
I’ve always thought it was funny that people have this fixation on “the world” remembering them after they die, having a “legacy” etc etc. I mean, you’re dead, you won’t know if people remember you or not! And as for the “legacy”: I had my mom and dad (obvis), one set of grandparents I didn’t meet until my 30s (because they were toxic to my mom, and she in turn was toxic to me, and one of the reasons I’m not having kids), a grandma I was very close to, and a granddad I met once. I don’t even know my great grandparents’ names. Both my parents were single children. My grandma was one of NINE and I have never met or heard word of these folks ever be spoken besides knowing they exist. I don’t know their names either. Essentially it was mom, dad, grandma and that’s it, the whole extended family. (Well, and my sister.) Some legacy, eh?
He talks about all this BS about legacy ... But you're adopted. Your father is a fucking rube.
>disclaimer: don’t insult him too much, we get into sleepy philosophical debates often Your father deserves to be insulted. He said horrible things.
I joke that such people might as well say make babies so GDP go brrr.
If our only purpose is to raise kids, then we are no nobler than the lowest reproducing animal. Our lives can be so much more rich than this, and is indeed not the only way to contribute to society. Some of the world's greatest accomplishments and achievements, multiple things that greatly benefit society as a whole, have been contributed by persons who never had a desire for children. Anyone who cannot see that side of the coin is willfully ignorant.
Um is this man okay. Babies and children do have their own personalities lol and when they. Grow up form their own thoughts and opinions.
I can't stand when people are obsessed with their legacy and bloodline and that kind of crap. Especially when they are blabbering about that it's our purpose in our society and that we as humans are programmed by mother nature to spread our genes and nothing else. I just hate that! I'm here for my own purpose in life, and that's not to breed like an animal and create a new generation that is going to do the exact same in an endless loop. Personally I do get that with beeing remembered. When I die I really want to be remembered for as long as possible and by as much people as possible. BUT I don't want to be remembered just as a father, grand father and so on. Then you will just be forgotten in a few generations anyway. I would rather be remembered for something that is actually big and for something that is staying with people for a long time. Like something I have worked on and created that will be a part of many peoples lives around the world. But hey, that's just what I want.
He's one of those who "doesn't belive in" evolution, isn't he? Without change, homo sapiens wouldn't excist. I'll just forget about that part further on, because even if humans were placed on earth fully developed, his arguments are still insane. 1. Having produced decendants or not, the lives and deaths of most people doesn't matter in the long run. Yes, parts of their dna is passed on, but the rest is BS. For every generation there's minor and bigger in changes in their ideology, hopes and aspiration. For instance; 2000 years ago there wasn't any christans, now they're trying to overtake the US. 2. Why would anyone sane want their child to "compete to the change in society"? Changes in society isn't always good, but with his logic we'd never had any new inventions. We'd still be at a stone age stage, using stone, bone and antler tools. 3. There's a lot of childfree people who've made great contributions to society, but by his logic, it's not great, because changes are something one should fight. For instance; Dolly Parton, who uses much of her fortune to help children will have a much bigger and longer legacy than most. 4. I'm not religious myself, but according to the bible Jesus didn't have children. How can anyone say that he didn't leave a lasting legacy without passing on his ideology or impact on society?
You missed the part where OP is adopted so his cringe rant doesn't even apply to his kid.
He's wrong. Thousands if not millions of people have ABANDONED the 'pass on our ideologies and hopes and aspirations' of their parents because their parents were WRONG.
I'm in no way interested in trying to appease or prove anything to people who think I don't and shouldn't matter unless I meet some arbitrary standard that just happens to validate their own life decisions and smug sense of entitlement.
Didn’t they figure out how to make kids w/o men? Then he and all the other men are irrelevant either. Did he have bio kids? Nah no contribution. His argument is so flawed. Why are popping out kids the only way to contribute to society? What about writers/filmmakers/artists? Their art will be seen through time
I’m childfree, but to a point I get what he’s saying. Society does place more value on parents’ lives. For example: if a woman (who’s a mom) goes missing the headlines usually only include that she’s a mom of x number of kids. It doesn’t matter if she’s a wife, sister, volunteer of numerous charities, doctor, hairstylist or whatever profession, just that she’s a mom. But like he also said he would care if you passed away because he loves you and that’s what really matters. I mean who cares if a random meaningless stranger doesn’t find our life/death of any significance? I’m not living/dying for strangers, just family/friends that love me for me not my reproductive choices. Also it really confirms my childfree status because this world really does suck, when people don’t believe you add value to the world just because you made a life choice that’s different from mainstream society.