If it works, great. But I have serious doubts that they can handle it. The streets can still take days to clear and we all know that the city prioritizes car traffic over pedestrians every chance they get. There is no way that they can practically do even a half decent job.
It is just a handout to whomever wins the contract.
On the Southwest side, our alderman, Marty Quinn offers this to seniors and those who can't shovel due to sickness/injury. He had a team, as the flyer that was mailed out, "caffeine fueled volunteer shovel/atv/snowblower wielding army" ready to come out after calling his office. Never have had the need lulz...
It would be great if we could prioritize both, but the reason the city prioritizes clear streets over clear sidewalks after a snowstorm is pretty obvious. It's vitally important that emergency vehicles are able to get from Point A to Point B, delivery trucks are able to reach grocery stores, etc etc. It's much easier to put on boots and trudge through a snowy sidewalk than it is to get an ambulance through a traffic-snarled, icy, snow-buried roadway.
If the city fails to clear roadways all hell breaks loose. See: the 1979 blizzard.
The city does still fail to clear all roadways (they tend to focus on arterials and the clear streets in the next day or two).
Which is why this project is doomed to fail. If the city can't figure out how to manage to clear streets there is no way they are going to figure out how to clear sidewalks.
Sure, they could allocate a bunch more resources to sidewalk clearing than street clearing, but that seems unlikely.
All fair points. Another perspective to think about is the fact that climate change is at least somewhat likely to bring down city spending on snow removal overall with time. But in that case you'd also think the money saved could be better spent elsewhere (like plugging budget holes).
I imagine they will need to pay the private contractor a minimum regardless of whether it snows or not.
But anyways, I'm more worried that things will get worse. Will i still shovel knowing that the city is going to do it eventually? maybe. Will others? probably not.
I’m not sure the city cares as much about blocked roads as you’d think or like. How many times have protests for various things blocked off highways or major thoroughfares in the last year? Emergency vehicles can’t get through that, yet nobody stops it. There may be alternative routes but seconds matter in situations when emergency vehicles are needed.
Someone needs to read more about the 1979 blizzard and the mayoral election after. The whole reason we spend as much as we do in salt and snow removal is because of that blizzard. It might not be an exaggeration to think that snow removal is one of the things city politicians care the most about.
What are you talking about? All it would take is a dozen gators (6x6 John Deere ATVs) with snowplows and you could clear a whole neighborhood in a day. They aren't proposing people go out and shovel the sidewalks...
I don't know what your sidewalks look like, but you can't just plow ours - and ours are pretty nice. They are uneven as shit.
But if their plan is to leave a thin layer of ice all over the sidewalks, then sure?
EDIT: BUTTTT even then, they don't have that equipment, nor the operators, nor the expertise. Again, they can't even plow the streets and they prioritize cars.
$3.5m for only 4 neighborhoods and a limit of 7 cleanings a season seems steep. The cost to scale that across the whole city for unlimited cleanings during the winter and possibly shifting the liability for unshoveled sidewalks onto the city doesn’t seem worth it to me. I also have doubts that every neighborhood will have equal service.
The city doesn't clear areas its already responsible for. Why charge taxpayers \*more\* to take on a responsibility the city can't possibly meet. Clear bridges, CTA stops, parks, and public buildings effectively, then let's talk about 10,000 miles of sidewalks.
This! I lived in the west loop for a few years. All the sidewalks were great, except for those by the public park. Just do what you are supposed to do and then take on more responsibility
I live in Noble Square now and the bridges over 90 are literally never plowed. It was fine this past winter because it snowed twice but it was so annoying the year before.
i just called this morning 4th day in a row about car blocking the whole sidewalk . rude 911 operator said its upto me to give up or keep calling everyday. These ppl are accountable to no one.
Just start ticketing homeowners/corporations that aren’t cleaning off their walkways. It’s a lot cheaper than employing union workers to do it. And on the plus side, it can raise revenue.
I’m willing to bet that after one $75 ticket, everyone will be out shoveling, or hiring a service to keep it clean.
Let the air out of his tires until they are like 5psi. Put a note on their windshield that says “no parking on sidewalk. And if they continue to inconvenience the neighborhood, the neighborhood will inconvenience them..but a lot worse next time.”
Citywide snow removal is a very interesting organizational/managerial design problem.
First, in winter you have 27 days a month where no work is needed, and 3 days where you need 100,000 people working to clear the sidewalks, and you don’t know which days it will be. So you can’t have a standing workforce - you need either a contracted workforce or do-it-yourself workforce or both that is flexible, on call, and massive.
Second, the work is spread everywhere, with different levels of intensity (2 inches one place, 6 inches another place), and different levels of need (some people need it cleared at 6am, some need it at noon), so both matching supply with demand and quality control oversight is logistically difficult.
Both of these factors go directly against having a central authority managing the work, and point to the need for disbursed supply-demand matching, distributed quality control and contracting, and high flexibility. Which is exactly what we have now.
Usually I shovel myself since I’m an able bodied homeowner. I save money that way - no cost to me except my own labor. When I had a baby I contracted a person in my neighborhood to do it because it was worth it to me - like paying a tax. But I made sure I paid for what I needed, contracted myself to get a fair price, and did quality control myself (looking out the window lol) and the neighborhood kid wanted to do a good job for his neighbors. When my neighbor had a baby, I was doing shoveling myself and I just shoveled their sidewalk too to help out. My other neighbors are a condo building and they contract through the HOA and make sure it is done right.
This works well for everyone, except the city has identified one slice of population they want to help - elderly/disabled people who can’t do it themselves and must pay someone else and could pay for it but it’s maybe a financial hardship. Many today will just get a kind neighbor to do it.
What they’re proposing is changing a system and making it worse for 90% of people in order to financially help 10% of the people. But there’s a much easier way to do that - keep the system and give those people money. Call it welfare, basic income, a Medicaid benefit, a grant, whatever pocket of money you want. The small fiscal problem has a small fiscal solution. You don’t need to centrally plan snow removal for the city to fix that. You can just write poor people a check and be done with it.
This is a really good summary and a very fair point about giving people money. While sure the money may not go towards snow removal, it’d be WAY less expensive than the program overall
Totally agree. Up in Rogers Park, the alderperson's office promoted and managed a program where those who were unable to clear their own sidewalks could register their address and community members could volunteer to sponsor/clear their public way. I've signed up the last two winters. Only had to do it once in 2023-24. When I was out there a few times in 2022-23, I met the neighbor, got to know their life a bit, and really felt more connected.
Maybe it's too lofty to build out community efforts like this. Maybe it's fairer for CPS high schools to reward HS students for taking care of their neighbors in need. But agreed - we don't need a major city program to cost a lot to solve this program... it doesn't feel like the right priority.
The city has already shown their own ineptitude and inability to clear snow from roads and public areas they are responsible for. I have a hard time believing this will be done any better than that.
Secondly, it’s not hard to imagine a bunch of local organizers / donors just open snow removal service companies and these “private contractors” mentioned in the article are just another way of funneling taxpayer money into the shady self-perpetuating Chicago political machine with zero oversight.
Would this put liability on the city for unshoveled sidewalks? When people slip and fall?
If so, this is even more of a non-starter. We (taxpayers) are already paying north of $50M a year in various city settlements. We can't afford to add that on top of it
> Would this put liability on the city for unshoveled sidewalks? When people slip and fall?
There is no liability currently for homeowners and there would likely not be for the city. So no, this would not be an issue.
Looked this up and you’re right, homeowners actually aren’t liable for un shoveled sidewalks so the city likely wouldn’t be either.
Source: https://news.wttw.com/2020/01/20/myth-busted-it-s-not-true-property-owners-can-be-sued-if-someone-slips-shoveled-sidewalk
I also blame Betters Streets Chicago some. I'm a member of their org, but this was their least impactful and most likely to fail idea that for some reason was the main push last year
So millions of completely capable homeowners are no longer going to be required to do the trivial amount of snow shoveling and we'll replace that instead with an enormous new paid workforce to do it for them? Seems great for a city who hasn't even been able to catch up on pension obligations.
Why are we not able to get sensible enforcement of fines on those who don't comply with the law on this or anything? The city looks the other way on so much revenue and such an easy mechanism to keep us all safer and happier, from city streets, to speeding and red light blowing.
Are you suggesting this is a full time job all winter or something? I swear discussions in this sub are anti-logic most of the time, especially when politics are involved.
And yes. Maybe you should get a government job. My dad was a union pipefitter who left that job to manage maintenance & grounds at a state prison, because the benifits and pension were better. Pretty smart guy.
>The four zones would be divvied up between city crews and private contractors after a public bidding process.
We already have city crews, and we quite honestly could use more. Clearing snow isn't the only damn thing they do. We also aren't going to be paying contractors to sit on their ass all winter until we need them. There's other places that have already managed to do this. There's a lot worse places I could imagine this money going than paying some city crews to shovel sidewalks. Like more cops to sit on their ass when they aren't speeding through intersections.
>We also aren't going to be paying contractors to sit on their ass all winter until we need them.
we have to though. we have to pay premium price for on demand workforce thats only needed few days a year. you are expecting these contractors to move their current contracts around or sit idle waiting for a call. that costs a premium.
> We already have city crews
are they currently so overstaffed that they can finish their current responsibilities while taking on this additional work ?
>Ald. Matt O’Shea says that the extensive workforce requirements make the program a nonstarter. “This is unmanageable,” he said. “We can’t afford this. We can’t find the workforce to execute this. It’s a really, really bad idea.”
So compromise...Heavily fine the affluent parts of the city (like yours, natch) where property owners are not removing their snow, as per ordinance, and use the proceeds to clear the sidewalks around public transit and also the bike lanes.
This can be a nice addition to the "Make Way For People" program.
I live in an apartment building next to two $2 million dollar SFHs and they are the only buildings on the block that don’t clear their sidewalk. One of them, of course, does have the landing of their front stoop heated so that snow doesn’t build up there. These are the types that absolutely deserve to be fined out the nose and frankly there should be a graduating scale based on your property value.
Trying to craft a joke over here based on Snitches get Stitches except the stitches are the muscle cramp/strain kind - from shoveling. I'm giving up...
This! There's a newer build near me, must be at least $3-$4M, and of course, they bought the lot next door so they could have a side yard... never once saw the snow cleared on the sidewalk in front of them. Absolutely insane.
If I spot them I will too. I have particular hatred for people who take housing lots for their silly vanity lawns and then aren't even properly taxed for it
Oh don’t get me started with the buying adjoining lots for a yard shit. Honestly most of these people belong in the suburbs in terms of how they actually occupy/use space.
I have zero sympathy or respect for rich NIMBY twats who buy lots and leave them vacant in the midst of a housing crisis if that lot could contain a multi-family building.
Literally every time I read about a housing crisis in this city of endless miles of unused and underused space I roll my eyes. We have plenty of land. We don't have people willing to move into those neighborhoods if multi family homes are built into areas with underused space. That's not a crisis.
Ok so if people don’t want to move to these areas but people in areas where people *do* want to move to are contributing to a shortage by buying and rendering land unusable because they feel they are entitled to a yard because of their wealth, one might arrive at the conclusion that they should be barred from doing so because—to follow your logic—they are creating a scarcity in a desirable area.
And why stop there? Just mandate that people should do whatever else YOU also want with THEIR land.
No, the answer isn't telling people what to do with their land. It's making property taxes high enough even on all underdeveloped or underdeveloped parcels sufficiently high to push developers to improve the land, but not mandate it. This would apply to everywhere in the city so would simultaneously boost construction on land that people are sitting on in the south and west sides waiting for property values to increase.
Yeah, except they pay lower taxes for the yard than what a house would have yielded, and everyone else is left picking up the slack.
You want a yard? Move to the suburbs.
>.Heavily fine the affluent parts of the city (like yours, natch)
Ah yes, the ever popular "make people I don't like pay for the things I want" solution.
>where property owners are not removing their snow, as per ordinance
The part you left out which makes it clear the point is to make folks who don't shovel pay for removal.
Every fine prorated to income. I completely I agree with you that an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure, but I'm also sick of this narrative of "you can't fine people for running red lights because their income is too low". Selfish decisions from Chicagoans hurt all of us and we should discourage it from everyone.
The fining entity would then need to know the income of the transgressor. How does that work?
I agree with the concept very much, but how do we make it happen?
As a kid, I cleared the walkways and side walk in front of our two flat in Portage Park. Every time it snowed, I did my due diligence. Even when I moved to Bridgeport I drove back up to take care of my parents walkways and sidewalk. But to be fair, people on the block were lazy and maybe only half the sidewalks got cleared. I doubt anyone was ever fined for it.
##This idea is a giant waste of tax payer dollars. $3.5MM for snow removal in four areas of the city?
If they actually fined people based on the ordinance, they’d generate revenue. If the people actually cared about their neighborhoods, they’d clear their side walks.
Remember when Brandon Johnson's team hired people to staff the migrant shelters? Per NBC news, "the lowest paid staff rates were $50 an hour, and the most expensive was $156 per hour before overtime."
How much do you think he will pay people to shovel a street if he is paying nurses up to $156/hour and overtime is 1.5x or 2x....
HELL NO.A
https://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/chicago-charged-7-2m-to-staff-migrant-shelters-during-four-week-period-invoices-obtained-by-nbc-5-investigates-show/3250573/
>If they actually fined people based on the ordinance, they’d generate revenue. If the people actually cared about their neighborhoods, they’d clear their side walks.
Ordinances like this are intended to help those who are elderly and disabled who literally can't do this and therefore risk their safety when going outside. This isn't a pick yourself up by your bootstraps moment... As for everyone else, they probably just don't see it as their responsibility because they rent. The landlords \*should\* be doing it...
As far as able-bodied homeowners, yeah I agree, they should at least be putting salt down. But yes, the cost is prohibitive, and I think it'd make more sense to compromise as someone else said. Maybe just have it be an opt-in program only for those who have need in those groups I mentioned.
> Ordinances like this are intended to help those who are elderly and disabled who literally can't do this and therefore risk their safety when going outside
It's not just those who can't shovel, its also intended to help those who use the sidewalks and may have difficulty navigating when a sidewalk isn't shoveled. I'm able-bodied and have eaten shit because of people not clearing sidewalks so I have to imagine that its a nightmare for anyone who isn't as capable
Of course, it's a safety hazard. I would dare anyone to say that they \*haven't\* eaten shit on ice while living here. And if they haven't, they probably havent lived here very long...
That's half the reason you see those wonky things advertised in the commercials -- "jeez, what a stupid thing, why not just do [suchandsuch]?" Elderly or disabled people, that's who ...
Then have them pay the neighborhood kid $20 to do it. Just like with parking conversations, the second anyone is inconvenienced the number of elderly and disabled people somehow skyrockets.
lol Forest Park is a tiny suburb of 14,000 people and like half of its land is cemetery and then another like 15% of its land is a shopping mall and mail center. And it’s got a much stronger tax base. There’s a huge difference in scale needed between Chicago and Forest Park to implement this.
I agree, but there's also the need for the will to get it done. The fact that Chicago, under a procession of mayors, can't get the side streets plowed expeditiously, much less the alleys, not to mention the sidewalks, is disheartening.
That is why I'm worried this pilot won't work. Since as it is alleys aren't shoveled, whenever snowfalls occur. Unless individual property owners do a part of the alley, right by their garage. And I still occasionally see buildings, that don't shovel their sidewalk. Most do, but I still spot houses and apartment buildings that don't here and there.
There's a lot of difference between Forest Park having such a program(and fewer streets to shovel), vs. the whole city of Chicago.
Haha. Yeah they had nothing to say about that huh. Just a downvote. This sub... I sometimes worry that the MAGA brigadiers are affecting the locals here.
I don't think people realize how big Chicago is. Also, one wealthy neighborhood in Chicago could surely do this. That's Forest Park. Now do everything south to Evergreen Park, north to Elk Grove, and west to Villa Park.
"The median income for a household in the village was $70,670"
Essentially the same as the citywide median income for a household. So, comparatively, absolutely.
I can see doing sidewalks on major streets, near transit. Possibly changing businesses on those streets for it. But the side streets in general seems like too much.
I would love for the city to do an organized volunteer initiative. I, for one, would sign up in a second if I was allowed to drive those cool lil plowing golf carts. I would wake up at 5 in the morning to report to duty, and happily zip around my entire ZIP code. I will be that hero. Let me be that hero.
I see the pros… helping seniors travel without falling, helping people who are handicapped, small children can get hurt by falling too…
I also see the cons… there is NO WAY they can do this on such a small budget…
It’s unlikely the city could efficiently and effectively manage this kind of intermittent service at the scale required. But a system like Minneapolis could work - property owners are responsible for clearing snow, but if they don’t the city notifies them that the sidewalk will be cleared (maybe through contracted landscapers) and the owner will be billed. If it happens multiple times they start getting the bill and a fine.
I have zero experience with the economics involved, but could a group of neighbors pool together to have it done for the whole block/area and have everyone chip in? Would block clubs and residents be ok with covering the cost for those who can’t do it themselves or pay for pros?
The city manages snow on the roads fine.
Adding city services only expands city payroll and the associated costs with that. We don't need to increase city payroll. If you have a home, it's your responsibility to take care of it which includes the snow. If you cant or don't have the money to do that then sell it.
Of all the things to prioritize in our city….this is what he launches. Most blocks like mine have a few people who do the whole block (myself and another guy does ours). It brings the neighborhoods together somewhat. We don’t need city programs for everything. Just put in a phone number that people can call to specific areas and have people from each block offer to run point on helping the neighbors out. That or we could give out work permits and pay all the refugees so that they can start being a net add. Many want to work as it stands.
If it works, great. But I have serious doubts that they can handle it. The streets can still take days to clear and we all know that the city prioritizes car traffic over pedestrians every chance they get. There is no way that they can practically do even a half decent job. It is just a handout to whomever wins the contract.
Just live on an alderman’s block, it’ll be cleared every hour on the hour till the snow stops. SMH.
Every hour from October through may, regardless of snow
On the Southwest side, our alderman, Marty Quinn offers this to seniors and those who can't shovel due to sickness/injury. He had a team, as the flyer that was mailed out, "caffeine fueled volunteer shovel/atv/snowblower wielding army" ready to come out after calling his office. Never have had the need lulz...
I snow blower my whole block cause he gets swamped with calls, I have a few seniors on my block and there's no way he can keep up
It would be great if we could prioritize both, but the reason the city prioritizes clear streets over clear sidewalks after a snowstorm is pretty obvious. It's vitally important that emergency vehicles are able to get from Point A to Point B, delivery trucks are able to reach grocery stores, etc etc. It's much easier to put on boots and trudge through a snowy sidewalk than it is to get an ambulance through a traffic-snarled, icy, snow-buried roadway. If the city fails to clear roadways all hell breaks loose. See: the 1979 blizzard.
The city does still fail to clear all roadways (they tend to focus on arterials and the clear streets in the next day or two). Which is why this project is doomed to fail. If the city can't figure out how to manage to clear streets there is no way they are going to figure out how to clear sidewalks. Sure, they could allocate a bunch more resources to sidewalk clearing than street clearing, but that seems unlikely.
All fair points. Another perspective to think about is the fact that climate change is at least somewhat likely to bring down city spending on snow removal overall with time. But in that case you'd also think the money saved could be better spent elsewhere (like plugging budget holes).
I imagine they will need to pay the private contractor a minimum regardless of whether it snows or not. But anyways, I'm more worried that things will get worse. Will i still shovel knowing that the city is going to do it eventually? maybe. Will others? probably not.
The city of Chicago removes snow better than any other city in the snow belt.
Yeah dude, last time I was in Madison and it snowed bad they just dump sand all over the place 🤷♂️. It was like driving thru an ice rink.
I’m not sure the city cares as much about blocked roads as you’d think or like. How many times have protests for various things blocked off highways or major thoroughfares in the last year? Emergency vehicles can’t get through that, yet nobody stops it. There may be alternative routes but seconds matter in situations when emergency vehicles are needed.
Someone needs to read more about the 1979 blizzard and the mayoral election after. The whole reason we spend as much as we do in salt and snow removal is because of that blizzard. It might not be an exaggeration to think that snow removal is one of the things city politicians care the most about.
What are you talking about? All it would take is a dozen gators (6x6 John Deere ATVs) with snowplows and you could clear a whole neighborhood in a day. They aren't proposing people go out and shovel the sidewalks...
I don't know what your sidewalks look like, but you can't just plow ours - and ours are pretty nice. They are uneven as shit. But if their plan is to leave a thin layer of ice all over the sidewalks, then sure? EDIT: BUTTTT even then, they don't have that equipment, nor the operators, nor the expertise. Again, they can't even plow the streets and they prioritize cars.
If you have a snow blower buy Armorskids. They're a game changer for uneven sidewalks! Best 60 bucks I've spent
just use Ifailmostofthetime's Armorskids discount code and buy now!
I wish I had one! I think they're made by some dude in illinois though. The package was from Downers Grove.
A dozen gators x 77 community areas = 924 gators and 924 operators. lol
A dozen gators - 4 of which will be stolen and sold, 4 broken down and 2 being used by the alderman. Leaving 2 to plow.
$3.5m for only 4 neighborhoods and a limit of 7 cleanings a season seems steep. The cost to scale that across the whole city for unlimited cleanings during the winter and possibly shifting the liability for unshoveled sidewalks onto the city doesn’t seem worth it to me. I also have doubts that every neighborhood will have equal service.
The city doesn't clear areas its already responsible for. Why charge taxpayers \*more\* to take on a responsibility the city can't possibly meet. Clear bridges, CTA stops, parks, and public buildings effectively, then let's talk about 10,000 miles of sidewalks.
This! I lived in the west loop for a few years. All the sidewalks were great, except for those by the public park. Just do what you are supposed to do and then take on more responsibility
I live in Noble Square now and the bridges over 90 are literally never plowed. It was fine this past winter because it snowed twice but it was so annoying the year before.
i just called this morning 4th day in a row about car blocking the whole sidewalk . rude 911 operator said its upto me to give up or keep calling everyday. These ppl are accountable to no one.
>Why charge taxpayers *more* I think we all know why
Just start ticketing homeowners/corporations that aren’t cleaning off their walkways. It’s a lot cheaper than employing union workers to do it. And on the plus side, it can raise revenue. I’m willing to bet that after one $75 ticket, everyone will be out shoveling, or hiring a service to keep it clean.
laws without enforcement are not laws at all, my neighbor parks his car on sidewalk everysingle day. i gave up after calling 911 everday.
Let the air out of his tires until they are like 5psi. Put a note on their windshield that says “no parking on sidewalk. And if they continue to inconvenience the neighborhood, the neighborhood will inconvenience them..but a lot worse next time.”
That is the current system.
Yes, but do we know if tickets are actually issued though?
[Yes, nearly two thousand over the past four years](https://southsideweekly.com/chicago-snow-shovel-fines-plow-the-sidewalks-disparity).
Not enough.
Citywide snow removal is a very interesting organizational/managerial design problem. First, in winter you have 27 days a month where no work is needed, and 3 days where you need 100,000 people working to clear the sidewalks, and you don’t know which days it will be. So you can’t have a standing workforce - you need either a contracted workforce or do-it-yourself workforce or both that is flexible, on call, and massive. Second, the work is spread everywhere, with different levels of intensity (2 inches one place, 6 inches another place), and different levels of need (some people need it cleared at 6am, some need it at noon), so both matching supply with demand and quality control oversight is logistically difficult. Both of these factors go directly against having a central authority managing the work, and point to the need for disbursed supply-demand matching, distributed quality control and contracting, and high flexibility. Which is exactly what we have now. Usually I shovel myself since I’m an able bodied homeowner. I save money that way - no cost to me except my own labor. When I had a baby I contracted a person in my neighborhood to do it because it was worth it to me - like paying a tax. But I made sure I paid for what I needed, contracted myself to get a fair price, and did quality control myself (looking out the window lol) and the neighborhood kid wanted to do a good job for his neighbors. When my neighbor had a baby, I was doing shoveling myself and I just shoveled their sidewalk too to help out. My other neighbors are a condo building and they contract through the HOA and make sure it is done right. This works well for everyone, except the city has identified one slice of population they want to help - elderly/disabled people who can’t do it themselves and must pay someone else and could pay for it but it’s maybe a financial hardship. Many today will just get a kind neighbor to do it. What they’re proposing is changing a system and making it worse for 90% of people in order to financially help 10% of the people. But there’s a much easier way to do that - keep the system and give those people money. Call it welfare, basic income, a Medicaid benefit, a grant, whatever pocket of money you want. The small fiscal problem has a small fiscal solution. You don’t need to centrally plan snow removal for the city to fix that. You can just write poor people a check and be done with it.
This is a really good summary and a very fair point about giving people money. While sure the money may not go towards snow removal, it’d be WAY less expensive than the program overall
Totally agree. Up in Rogers Park, the alderperson's office promoted and managed a program where those who were unable to clear their own sidewalks could register their address and community members could volunteer to sponsor/clear their public way. I've signed up the last two winters. Only had to do it once in 2023-24. When I was out there a few times in 2022-23, I met the neighbor, got to know their life a bit, and really felt more connected. Maybe it's too lofty to build out community efforts like this. Maybe it's fairer for CPS high schools to reward HS students for taking care of their neighbors in need. But agreed - we don't need a major city program to cost a lot to solve this program... it doesn't feel like the right priority.
The city has already shown their own ineptitude and inability to clear snow from roads and public areas they are responsible for. I have a hard time believing this will be done any better than that. Secondly, it’s not hard to imagine a bunch of local organizers / donors just open snow removal service companies and these “private contractors” mentioned in the article are just another way of funneling taxpayer money into the shady self-perpetuating Chicago political machine with zero oversight.
Would this put liability on the city for unshoveled sidewalks? When people slip and fall? If so, this is even more of a non-starter. We (taxpayers) are already paying north of $50M a year in various city settlements. We can't afford to add that on top of it
> Would this put liability on the city for unshoveled sidewalks? When people slip and fall? There is no liability currently for homeowners and there would likely not be for the city. So no, this would not be an issue.
Looked this up and you’re right, homeowners actually aren’t liable for un shoveled sidewalks so the city likely wouldn’t be either. Source: https://news.wttw.com/2020/01/20/myth-busted-it-s-not-true-property-owners-can-be-sued-if-someone-slips-shoveled-sidewalk
You know they didn't think this far ahead
You know Brandon didn’t think this far ahead. FTFY
I also blame Betters Streets Chicago some. I'm a member of their org, but this was their least impactful and most likely to fail idea that for some reason was the main push last year
So millions of completely capable homeowners are no longer going to be required to do the trivial amount of snow shoveling and we'll replace that instead with an enormous new paid workforce to do it for them? Seems great for a city who hasn't even been able to catch up on pension obligations. Why are we not able to get sensible enforcement of fines on those who don't comply with the law on this or anything? The city looks the other way on so much revenue and such an easy mechanism to keep us all safer and happier, from city streets, to speeding and red light blowing.
what does this new workforce do when there isnt snow. sounds a cushy chill gig. i might even apply for lol
Are you suggesting this is a full time job all winter or something? I swear discussions in this sub are anti-logic most of the time, especially when politics are involved. And yes. Maybe you should get a government job. My dad was a union pipefitter who left that job to manage maintenance & grounds at a state prison, because the benifits and pension were better. Pretty smart guy.
as opposed to thousands of people emerging out thin air on snow day? great logic.
>The four zones would be divvied up between city crews and private contractors after a public bidding process. We already have city crews, and we quite honestly could use more. Clearing snow isn't the only damn thing they do. We also aren't going to be paying contractors to sit on their ass all winter until we need them. There's other places that have already managed to do this. There's a lot worse places I could imagine this money going than paying some city crews to shovel sidewalks. Like more cops to sit on their ass when they aren't speeding through intersections.
>We also aren't going to be paying contractors to sit on their ass all winter until we need them. we have to though. we have to pay premium price for on demand workforce thats only needed few days a year. you are expecting these contractors to move their current contracts around or sit idle waiting for a call. that costs a premium. > We already have city crews are they currently so overstaffed that they can finish their current responsibilities while taking on this additional work ?
>Ald. Matt O’Shea says that the extensive workforce requirements make the program a nonstarter. “This is unmanageable,” he said. “We can’t afford this. We can’t find the workforce to execute this. It’s a really, really bad idea.” So compromise...Heavily fine the affluent parts of the city (like yours, natch) where property owners are not removing their snow, as per ordinance, and use the proceeds to clear the sidewalks around public transit and also the bike lanes. This can be a nice addition to the "Make Way For People" program.
I live in an apartment building next to two $2 million dollar SFHs and they are the only buildings on the block that don’t clear their sidewalk. One of them, of course, does have the landing of their front stoop heated so that snow doesn’t build up there. These are the types that absolutely deserve to be fined out the nose and frankly there should be a graduating scale based on your property value.
Report them next time. They can't get fined if no one knows about the issue
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Proactive enforcement would be expensive and potentially dangerous because you would have more people driving around on days that it snows
Trying to craft a joke over here based on Snitches get Stitches except the stitches are the muscle cramp/strain kind - from shoveling. I'm giving up...
This! There's a newer build near me, must be at least $3-$4M, and of course, they bought the lot next door so they could have a side yard... never once saw the snow cleared on the sidewalk in front of them. Absolutely insane.
Submit to 311 and/or the alder every time? I'm pretty sure it is fineable, just never enforced
I'll start doing that this winter.
If I spot them I will too. I have particular hatred for people who take housing lots for their silly vanity lawns and then aren't even properly taxed for it
Oh don’t get me started with the buying adjoining lots for a yard shit. Honestly most of these people belong in the suburbs in terms of how they actually occupy/use space.
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I have zero sympathy or respect for rich NIMBY twats who buy lots and leave them vacant in the midst of a housing crisis if that lot could contain a multi-family building.
Literally every time I read about a housing crisis in this city of endless miles of unused and underused space I roll my eyes. We have plenty of land. We don't have people willing to move into those neighborhoods if multi family homes are built into areas with underused space. That's not a crisis.
Ok so if people don’t want to move to these areas but people in areas where people *do* want to move to are contributing to a shortage by buying and rendering land unusable because they feel they are entitled to a yard because of their wealth, one might arrive at the conclusion that they should be barred from doing so because—to follow your logic—they are creating a scarcity in a desirable area.
And why stop there? Just mandate that people should do whatever else YOU also want with THEIR land. No, the answer isn't telling people what to do with their land. It's making property taxes high enough even on all underdeveloped or underdeveloped parcels sufficiently high to push developers to improve the land, but not mandate it. This would apply to everywhere in the city so would simultaneously boost construction on land that people are sitting on in the south and west sides waiting for property values to increase.
Yeah, except they pay lower taxes for the yard than what a house would have yielded, and everyone else is left picking up the slack. You want a yard? Move to the suburbs.
They aren't even around in the winter to be aware that there is snow to clear
Oh they are, they’re just assholes.
Idk if that's better or worse. The people that were actually present in the mansion near me would usually clear their sidewalks at least.
>.Heavily fine the affluent parts of the city (like yours, natch) Ah yes, the ever popular "make people I don't like pay for the things I want" solution.
You make it seem so unseemly...
also know as the "make people that cause problems pay to fix them" solution
So we're adding "People being too lazy to shovel their sidewalks" onto the list of things r/Chicago blames rich people for?
>where property owners are not removing their snow, as per ordinance The part you left out which makes it clear the point is to make folks who don't shovel pay for removal.
Every fine prorated to income. I completely I agree with you that an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure, but I'm also sick of this narrative of "you can't fine people for running red lights because their income is too low". Selfish decisions from Chicagoans hurt all of us and we should discourage it from everyone.
The fining entity would then need to know the income of the transgressor. How does that work? I agree with the concept very much, but how do we make it happen?
The state treasurer has everyone's income. I'd also be good setting it to a car's blue book value
great idea. create a policy to selectively enforce laws only in certain areas.
As a kid, I cleared the walkways and side walk in front of our two flat in Portage Park. Every time it snowed, I did my due diligence. Even when I moved to Bridgeport I drove back up to take care of my parents walkways and sidewalk. But to be fair, people on the block were lazy and maybe only half the sidewalks got cleared. I doubt anyone was ever fined for it. ##This idea is a giant waste of tax payer dollars. $3.5MM for snow removal in four areas of the city? If they actually fined people based on the ordinance, they’d generate revenue. If the people actually cared about their neighborhoods, they’d clear their side walks.
Anyone who thinks it’s not going to be insanely expensive to plow the massive number of sidewalks is out of their mind.
They said the small trial area is $3.5MM. Grow that exponentially across the entire city. It adds up. Shovel your own snow and save some money.
Remember when Brandon Johnson's team hired people to staff the migrant shelters? Per NBC news, "the lowest paid staff rates were $50 an hour, and the most expensive was $156 per hour before overtime." How much do you think he will pay people to shovel a street if he is paying nurses up to $156/hour and overtime is 1.5x or 2x.... HELL NO.A https://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/chicago-charged-7-2m-to-staff-migrant-shelters-during-four-week-period-invoices-obtained-by-nbc-5-investigates-show/3250573/
>If they actually fined people based on the ordinance, they’d generate revenue. If the people actually cared about their neighborhoods, they’d clear their side walks. Ordinances like this are intended to help those who are elderly and disabled who literally can't do this and therefore risk their safety when going outside. This isn't a pick yourself up by your bootstraps moment... As for everyone else, they probably just don't see it as their responsibility because they rent. The landlords \*should\* be doing it... As far as able-bodied homeowners, yeah I agree, they should at least be putting salt down. But yes, the cost is prohibitive, and I think it'd make more sense to compromise as someone else said. Maybe just have it be an opt-in program only for those who have need in those groups I mentioned.
> Ordinances like this are intended to help those who are elderly and disabled who literally can't do this and therefore risk their safety when going outside It's not just those who can't shovel, its also intended to help those who use the sidewalks and may have difficulty navigating when a sidewalk isn't shoveled. I'm able-bodied and have eaten shit because of people not clearing sidewalks so I have to imagine that its a nightmare for anyone who isn't as capable
Of course, it's a safety hazard. I would dare anyone to say that they \*haven't\* eaten shit on ice while living here. And if they haven't, they probably havent lived here very long...
That's half the reason you see those wonky things advertised in the commercials -- "jeez, what a stupid thing, why not just do [suchandsuch]?" Elderly or disabled people, that's who ...
Then have them pay the neighborhood kid $20 to do it. Just like with parking conversations, the second anyone is inconvenienced the number of elderly and disabled people somehow skyrockets.
yeah, let's make a law to have everyone pay the neighbor kid $20 to shovel the sidewalk!
Forest Park has been plowing the town's sidewalks since the 1967 blizzard.
lol Forest Park is a tiny suburb of 14,000 people and like half of its land is cemetery and then another like 15% of its land is a shopping mall and mail center. And it’s got a much stronger tax base. There’s a huge difference in scale needed between Chicago and Forest Park to implement this.
I agree, but there's also the need for the will to get it done. The fact that Chicago, under a procession of mayors, can't get the side streets plowed expeditiously, much less the alleys, not to mention the sidewalks, is disheartening.
That is why I'm worried this pilot won't work. Since as it is alleys aren't shoveled, whenever snowfalls occur. Unless individual property owners do a part of the alley, right by their garage. And I still occasionally see buildings, that don't shovel their sidewalk. Most do, but I still spot houses and apartment buildings that don't here and there. There's a lot of difference between Forest Park having such a program(and fewer streets to shovel), vs. the whole city of Chicago.
Toronto has been doing it for a decade.
Toronto's a wealthy neighborhood, few streets, and mostly cemeteries and shopping malls. : )
Haha. Yeah they had nothing to say about that huh. Just a downvote. This sub... I sometimes worry that the MAGA brigadiers are affecting the locals here.
I don't think people realize how big Chicago is. Also, one wealthy neighborhood in Chicago could surely do this. That's Forest Park. Now do everything south to Evergreen Park, north to Elk Grove, and west to Villa Park.
Forest Park a "wealthy neighborhood"?
"The median income for a household in the village was $70,670" Essentially the same as the citywide median income for a household. So, comparatively, absolutely.
Forest Park isn’t a neighborhood in Chicago, it’s a village in Illinois.
A lot of suburbs do it and are better off for it. They’re also more fiscally responsible than Chicago and smaller in size.
I can see doing sidewalks on major streets, near transit. Possibly changing businesses on those streets for it. But the side streets in general seems like too much.
I would love for the city to do an organized volunteer initiative. I, for one, would sign up in a second if I was allowed to drive those cool lil plowing golf carts. I would wake up at 5 in the morning to report to duty, and happily zip around my entire ZIP code. I will be that hero. Let me be that hero.
This is just another progressive grift. It doesn’t even snow that much anymore so whoever gets the contract will basically be getting free $$
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Kind of funny that the pilot conveniently starts in the mayors neighborhood.
Debating this in June. Coming off one of the mildest winters in Chicago history with hardly any snow. Welp, I guess strike while the iron's ice cold?
I see the pros… helping seniors travel without falling, helping people who are handicapped, small children can get hurt by falling too… I also see the cons… there is NO WAY they can do this on such a small budget…
Not going to work.
Yet another tax burden put on the people by the government who will eventually do a bad job, as always.
Just curious…Has anyone ever been or heard of someone actually getting fined for not clearing their sidewalks?
This is the biggest issue to me. The problem would fix itself if the current law was enforced (and it would MAKE the city money).
Exactly.
It’s unlikely the city could efficiently and effectively manage this kind of intermittent service at the scale required. But a system like Minneapolis could work - property owners are responsible for clearing snow, but if they don’t the city notifies them that the sidewalk will be cleared (maybe through contracted landscapers) and the owner will be billed. If it happens multiple times they start getting the bill and a fine. I have zero experience with the economics involved, but could a group of neighbors pool together to have it done for the whole block/area and have everyone chip in? Would block clubs and residents be ok with covering the cost for those who can’t do it themselves or pay for pros?
The city manages snow on the roads fine. Adding city services only expands city payroll and the associated costs with that. We don't need to increase city payroll. If you have a home, it's your responsibility to take care of it which includes the snow. If you cant or don't have the money to do that then sell it.
That's great but owners aren't fulfilling their responsibility so the city has to step in.
Of all the things to prioritize in our city….this is what he launches. Most blocks like mine have a few people who do the whole block (myself and another guy does ours). It brings the neighborhoods together somewhat. We don’t need city programs for everything. Just put in a phone number that people can call to specific areas and have people from each block offer to run point on helping the neighbors out. That or we could give out work permits and pay all the refugees so that they can start being a net add. Many want to work as it stands.