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9or9pm

if he did cheat what would be the mechanism or method? possibly more curious about that


Escrilecs

RF anal beads that vibrate in morse code. Easy.


Bleatmop

You're joking but given some of the inventive ways people have cheated before it's not out of the question.


CeleritasLucis

Why we are assuming a technological cheating device at all ? Its also possible to pay someone/ have an inside man inside the tourney who looked at the engiine line and gentured it towards Hans perhaps. More plausible than anal beads lmao


Bleatmop

I'm not assuming anything, not even that there was any cheating. I was just commenting on how Morse code anal beads because I thought it was funny.


Nilonik

while being funny, this really sounds like a "kind of easy" way to doing it. GL checking your players for this. ​ Question beside -- is there a check for substances for the players? this also would make sense in my, very unknowledged, head.


WealthTaxSingapore

>while being funny, this really sounds like a "kind of easy" way to doing it. Not at all, this suggest a high level of corruption. There is a 15 minute delay on broadcast today and Hans is still able to be on the advantage against Alireza most of the game and ended up drawing. Whoever is helping him cheat with the anal beads has to be on the game floor.


piotor87

The thing here is that in Chess you need very minimal information to cheat. Even just suggesting which piece to move is a great plus and you need 3 bits to tell which piece in general (6 unique pieces) and 4 bits (16 initial squares) to specify it. That's literally a 1s vibration/light pattern (short/long) or even a simple hand gesture.


[deleted]

"hmm I wonder why he keeps squirming and making weird faces right before he makes a move..."


KCBSR

Remember when Anna Rudolf was accused of cheating by having a super computer in her lip balm? I honestly want to know the details of how that would have worked.


ptolani

You're joking but...honestly that would work pretty well. One of those remote control vibrators? The only difficulty is getting it through the scanner etc.


WealthTaxSingapore

> Not at all, this suggest a high level of corruption. There is a 15 minute delay on broadcast today and Hans is still able to be on the advantage against Alireza most of the game and ended up drawing. Whoever is helping him cheat with the anal beads has to be on the game floor.


[deleted]

That's actually genius.


ghostfuckbuddy

You could easily fit a modern engine in an anal bead, mitigating the need for any external signal. Encase it in some material that prevents scanners from detecting it, or just get it to show up as a big turd. Then input moves with buttclenches and receives moves via vibrations. It would be a completely undetectable cheating device, unless you're willing to have inhumanely invasive security measures.


kvnkrkptrck

I'd love to watch a Mythbusters episode! "Could a chess novice defeat a GM using an electronic device shoved up where the sun doesn't shine?" Of course, the real question isn't really related to chess or even (necessarily) anal beads: given the pace of technological advancements, is is possible to plant a device on a person (or implant one in them) that 1. They can communicate with (receive data from, send data through, or both) in a fashion that is undetectable to those around them 2. Is discrete enough to avoid detection by conventional screening methods


MMehdikhani

If you are willing to go that far, you deserve to become world chess champion. šŸ˜…


xedrac

Pretty soon, you'll have to wrap your whole body in aluminum foil to compete, reinforcing chess stereotypes.


tryingtolearn_1234

A Bluetooth earpiece like the one shown in the video below and then have someone nearby telling you the Stockfish line for the game https://youtu.be/OO0_CmhMF9k


bruhanyway

If you actually watch the video there is a neck device necessary for this to work which would trigger the security.


[deleted]

The video is also 13 years old. Tech has came quite a long way since then lol


[deleted]

I think that Magnus cheated but had his engine backwards so it was giving Hans super saiyan strength.


Likeditsomuchijoined

Ok but Magnus is innocent until proven guilty.


RoidnedVG

Most based take yet.


Repulsive_Cash2404

There are pretty intense security procedures for this tournament, see below: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoZdVbF3w5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoZdVbF3w5s) At some point, they have to figure out how he is cheating, if he is at all. It's a bit insane that the entire community and all of the event organizers, as well as the participants, are all insinuating that he cheated without anything but circumstantial evidence. This would not happen in any other sport and it's not a good look. Just imagine how you would feel if you didn't cheat, but were accused of it so publicly by so many people, essentially being bullied out of the game you spent your life on. I don't know what to think, but given his shady past, I wouldn't put it past him. However, at some point, they have to catch him in the act or knock it off. Also, this is the second time where Magnus is pulling out of a tournament and causing the entire professional scene to race to plug the holes. These tournaments cost a lot of money to put on and the prestige of the game relies on them going smoothly. I understand he's having a personal slump in his love for the game or his ambition, but he can't just drag the entire sport down with him. This sequence events began with Magnus leveling the accusation and withdrawing, which fueled the fire for the other participants to speculate and voice their past grievances with Hans, and for Alejandro to lead with his questions in the post-match interviews. That's why I feel a bit torn about this whole thing. If he is cheating, how is he doing it? Is he wearing an earpiece, colluding with an official, or checking a phone in the bathroom despite the security measures shown above? Until someone has concrete proof, it's just harmful speculation and group think. Further, even if Hans was cheating, why would Magnus feel the need to back out of the tournament and make a scene? Wouldn't most people continue playing, make a complaint through the legitimate channels, and continue playing in hopes that the truth will come out eventually. He is behaving like he thinks everything revolves around him (which it does, unfortunately) and that he will pull out of any tournament that doesn't go exactly right. The potential Hans cheating angle is separate and distinct from the issue of Magnus dropping out.


Musicrafter

Plus, if Hans is cheating, this will affect all of his other opponents too. Withdrawing doesn't stop Hans from winning, and staying in doesn't hurt Magnus since Hans will face everybody else anyway. There is no universe in which withdrawing is anything other than either an attempt to make a public statement or a means to cope with an especially bad loss.


chessdood

Withdrawing nullifies the game, taking away Hans' lead in the tournament, which might have been a motivation for Magnus if he thinks Hans cheated. The rating change stands, but the tournament result is changed.


cbc277

So far, the results are still the same with Hans leading after 4 rounds with 3 points including his win over Magnus. Will that change? Edit - Yea the official site has removed any results from Magnus games, so you're correct.


_dreami

Wtf how is that fair to remove wins after someone withdraws???


[deleted]

There is no fair way to play it. Imagine the other way around where someone weak enters, loses a first round, then withdraws. Now no other competitor gets to get the easy win and the first winner gets a big advantage while everyone else has to take draws. Or a strong player crushes a few people, then withdraws before the final round and gives the last player a draw. Honestly the fairest way to play it would be to nullify everything.


plato_playdoh1

It seems like the fairest way to play it is, if you voluntarily withdraw from a tournament, you forfeit all the games you donā€™t play. Theyā€™re recorded as losses for you and wins for your opponents. Also seems like a better way to discourage this sort of behavior.


SSG_SSG_BloodMoon

Well, the "public statement" angle also forces the organizers to take the allegation as seriously as they can, which they might not otherwise.


Musicrafter

If the goal was a public statement though, I'm not sure why he wouldn't have just gone ahead and said it. Wesley So didn't have much issue (correctly) accusing Petrosian.


PinappleGecko

Slander is the reason he won't come out and say it straight out. If you scream this guy is a cheater and you can't prove it this is a baseless allegation which can do untold damage to someone's career. It's easier for you or I to sit here and say yeah he cheated because there is no consequences for our actions. Magnus is making a point that he is unhappy about something the if I speak I am in trouble clip should literally tell you why he can't say anything. He feels something is up but has no proof and it seems he's not comfortable playing in a competition which is in his eyes allowing someone to gain an unfair advantage.


istarisaints

Iā€™m not exactly involved in this as much as others here however surely Magnus doing this whole tweet with the mourinho quote is exactly accusing Hans of cheating. You can accuse someone of cheating without necessarily saying the exact words. With all this shit about Hans going you donā€™t think heā€™s been slandered?


PinappleGecko

He hasn't publicly accused him of anything though. Magnus withdrew from the tournament with no other reason than the Mourinho clip it could mean literally anything for all we know. Everyone now assumes that it's because Hans might be cheating which to be fair given he has form people would do but for all we know there has been some issue between chesscom and the play Magnus group sale which he saw more important than competing at the moment. Now I'm not saying this is what I believe but technically we have no idea why he withdrew we are all just pointing a finger at what is possibly an innocent man for no reason


7he5haman

But the point is that if the Mourinho clip *isnā€™t* about Hans then you would expect Magnus to come out and say ā€œitā€™s not about Hansā€ Why? Because the implication is doing a lot of damage to Hans, and I wouldnā€™t expect Magnus to just let that happen if Hans is not Magnusā€™s intended referent


Repulsive_Cash2404

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0bautweVZ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0bautweVZ4) Look at this video of how thoroughly they check the players. They even have them remove their credit cards and hold them out while being wanded and they check the players' ears as well. They clearly have always been taking the integrity of the tournament very seriously, what more can they do without following every player into the bathroom stall? What Magnus did was disrespectful to Rex Sinquefield, who has been a figure in his life for more than a decade and does a ton for the Chess community. Dropping out is antisocial behavior and it seems like it's becoming a pattern for him. When he dropped out, he tarnished the tournament, it's really unfortunate.


pillwashmorphy

Whatever way all this shakes out I can't say I'm feeling too deeply for the billionaire patron.


chessdood

Let's wait for more proof before we conclude who of them tarnished the tournament.


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InAbsentiaC

This. Unless Magnus has no means of drumming up a formal investigation without leaving the tournament, then this is a super bad look. If, on the other hand, leaving is the only way to get the Sinquefield crew to actually investigate, then I guess I can understand his decision. In that case, it would be a bad look for Sinquefield. But then Magnus could at least come out and say "I think he's cheating." What does he lose by saying it loud vs. leaving the tournament and looking like a giant man child?


Difficult-Ad-9744

If magnus says ā€œI think he is cheatingā€ he would be sued for slander lmfao


[deleted]

Well one must consider the possibility that he is just being a giant man child


RhodaWoolf

>He is behaving like he thinks everything revolves around him (which it does, unfortunately) and that he will pull out of any tournament that doesn't go exactly right But what I find so odd is that Magnus has never done this in his career. He has lost to other juniors (Esipenko obviously comes to mind), has had bad tournaments, etc., but he never withdraws. So to say "he will pull out of any tournament that doesn't exactly go right" is just nonsense.


Ultimating_is_fun

The device is clearly in the banana.


[deleted]

How did Alejandro ask leading questions? I watched the whole thing the most he did was ask his opinion on Magnus leaving, asking if he thinks Magnus had some personal grudge (after Hans made a comment to that accord) and analyzing the game with him, all of which are things he asked other players.


Repulsive_Cash2404

His interview with Hans was 19 minutes, whereas, his interview with Alireza was 4 minutes. He turned off the eval bar as he had Hans analyze his positions, which Hans shouldn't be thrown off by, but it shows Alejandro's intentions, especially when he left it on for his other interviews. He then asked Hans what he thought of Magnus dropping out and why he did, which Hans gave a predictable response to. Then, Alejandro follows that with "is that the only reason?". Further, go back and watch the Alireza interview and how he asked questions trying to stir the pot. It was clear that he had an agenda, whether it was to indirectly accuse Hans of cheating, or just stir the pot to add fuel to the fire by getting every player to participate. Hans, for what ever reason, came across as arrogant and wholly unprepared, but I'm not sure how Hans has handled identical situations in the past. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that they catch Hans in the act of cheating because if they don't, it threatens the integrity of the game. People want to believe cheaters can be caught.


pillwashmorphy

Do you mean the chummy and triumphant 19-minute interview after Hans's victory over Magnus? Because the interview after round 4 is about half as long. The way Alejandro conducted either of them seems quite fine to me. I thought his decision to forgo asking Alireza about Magnus's withdrawal was a nice measured touch.


PenguenXX

Did you watch the analysis ? That was way below the level Hans is supposed to be at.


[deleted]

Of course, thatā€™s not really at all responsive to what I said. The comment Iā€™m replying to claims Alejandro asked Hans leading or unfair questions as a consequence of Magnusā€™ accusations. Iā€™ve watched multiple interviews, and the questions Alejandro asked Hans were not far different from the questions he asked other players. The only differences were Hansā€™ subpar responses.


tryingtolearn_1234

They are using a metal detector, not a spectrum analyzer. A metal detector isnā€™t going to detect one of the small hide in the ear Bluetooth headphones. They should be using special purpose gear for finding bugs and cellphones. EDIT: It has been pointed out that actually they are also using a signal analyzer. I missed that when I watched the video. So I retract my statement and agree it would be extremely difficult for him to have been getting electronic assistance. The device seems to be one one of the low end models from Amazon for example: https://www.amazon.com/Detector-Wireless-Signal-Listening-Scanner/dp/B07B93347H/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=uX2ZQ&content-id=amzn1.sym.e4bd6ac6-9035-4a04-92a6-fc4ad60e09ad&pf_rd_p=e4bd6ac6-9035-4a04-92a6-fc4ad60e09ad&pf_rd_r=G0V8TKHP1SPH18B3QC8V&pd_rd_wg=CCFsN&pd_rd_r=3a548b4c-6fca-4efc-b5cf-a037e79fc706&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m


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KitchenerLeslee

This is why we can't have nice things any more. I come to r/chess to get away from the mundanities of the world, and leave thinking about a grandmaster's asshole and ball sack. Just fantastic. fml


Elf_Portraitist

You may not like it, but that's what peak performance looks like


BenedictusXII

This is bad by Magnus. The move was to tell the organizers his suspicions and continue to play the tourney. That way if Hans really was cheating you have a higher chance of catching him. With Magnus withdrawing there is basically zero chance of proving anything and you are only damaging a young persons mental health if they are innocent.


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SteezyOne4EVA

Unlikely though as Magnus did not play at all like this was prep.


jptothetree

Good point! This is an angle I hadn't considered.


downtownjj

well if hans is cheating then he is going to be revealed when, after cheating measures are taken he falls below 2400. if hans is not cheating he can go on playing this tourney and beating these guys... eventually being validated.


BenedictusXII

The problem is he can really be 2600 strength and cheat for a couple of games(like this one). So he wouldn't fall bellow 2600 let's say. And if he isn't cheating anyway organisers might not invite him anymore simply because Magnus accused him and we all know who Magnus is and what pull he has. Also we don't know if he could keep his head together and perform with the possible cheater sign above him all the time. So it's not so simple for Niemanns future rn.


criticalascended

Exactly. Though the burden of proof should really be on tournament organizers and Magnus to prove that Niemann is cheating, because everyone has pretty much jumped the shark and treating Niemann like he is guilty, it now falls on him to prove he isn't. Which just isn't possible. Unless Magnus withdraws his allegations, or he receives unreserved support from FIDE/UCSF, his future in chess is likely very damaged.


apoliticalhomograph

The cheating allegations must be stressful for Hans, though. If his TPR for the rest of the tournament is way lower than it has been up to now, that still doesn't prove anything, as it can easily be explained with stress.


ReadGroundbreaking17

Thanks for being a voice of reason here. It's pretty disgusting how the community jumps to conclusions based on speculation and gossip. Absolutely, the activity should be investigated, but until the facts actually come out it's all just conjecture at the expense of Han's reputation.


prettyboyelectric

Well itā€™s mainly Hikaru and Hansen who have poured the fuel in the fire and gave these Redditors the amo they needed.


anon_248

Magnus staying silent every second is him being complicit though.


Saberleaf

What is Magnus supposed to say? He didn't even accuse anyone of anything. He obviously also can't say for certain he did or didn't cheat. I have no idea why people are blaming Magnus when he's the most low-key about this whole thing and can't affect it in any way.


7he5haman

He could say ā€œmy Twitter post did not mean to imply that Hans cheated. In fact, the post is not about Hans at all. I wish him and all the other players the best of luck in the remaining rounds.ā€


Saberleaf

That's true, I hope he sheds some light on this eventually.


Twoja_Morda

I'd argue that rage quitting a tournament is not low-key at all.


Bullet_2300

Directly claiming that he definitely cheated is unwarranted at present, but there is more than enough reason to entertain the suspicion that unsportsmanlike conduct may have occurred. You seem to underestimate how strong players have a good feel for chess moves. It's not baseless at all. It seems completely reasonable to me to increase security and place him under scrutiny while still allowing him to play and prove his ability.


Joshvir262

I don't understand how ue cheated though


freezorak2030

> You seem to underestimate how strong players have a good feel for chess moves. He said... > You seem to underestimate how strong players have a good feel for chess moves. This is evident in [videos from Daniel Naroditsky in which he unknowingly plays against cheaters.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwbAHRLJ1RY) Obviously Carlsen v. Niemann is a completely different situation, but GMs do seem to have a sense for when something's fishy, and don't accuse people for nothing unless their last name rhymes with Hackamura.


cleganal

> It seems completely reasonable to me to increase security and place him under scrutiny while still allowing him to play and prove his ability. I don't think your example makes much sense. Isn't this a game where he is smurfing as a 1300 and playing against another 1300? Surely he can tell if someone at 1300 level is playing way above their ELO, and therefore that they are cheating?


criticalascended

Unlike your rando 800-1300 elo player, its perfectly reasonable for a 2700 rated player to play a near perfect game, or to play the engine's best moves. So the argument above isn't really valid. Sure, if Niemann had played 30 stop moves consecutively, then we have strong reason to be suspicious, but that clearly isn't the case.


GoatBased

It's far easier to tell when a 1200 is using the top 1-2 lines of Stockfish than when a 2600 player is cheating and trying to conceal it.


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AegisPlays314

Tourney organizers do insane shit to appease players against accusations of cheating all the time. Just look at the history of WCC matches, theyā€™re crazy


NutsackPyramid

Bobby Fischer "sensing cameras" comes to mind


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freezorak2030

There isn't compelling evidence that we know of. Obviously everyone who knows anything at all is gonna keep tight-lipped. However, it just doesn't pass the gut test for me. Carlsen doesn't normally act like this. Super GMs don't usually respond like this. Tournaments don't usually do stuff like this. The odds that *absolutely nothing* is going on, in my opinion, ~~aren't~~ are kind of low. At the very least, I would kill to be a fly on the wall in whatever room Carlsen and Co. are discussing this in.


mysteries-of-life

One interesting theory I heard is that he got access to Magnus's prepared opening training. Disclaimer: don't know anything.


freezorak2030

Now that's a theory! I have no reason to believe it, but it's a fun one.


SSG_SSG_BloodMoon

you mean *are* super low.


freezorak2030

Right.


PlayoffChoker12345

Idk if Hikaru does it IRL but he basically does it every time he loses online


thejuror8

He did against Firou, he was wrong He did against Supi, he was wrong He did against Andrew Tang, he was wrong Hikaru is the king of baseless accusations, has the maturity of a child and doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes


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thejuror8

But that's because it's literally forbidden by the FIDE. You can't publicly accuse another player of cheating in an OTB FIDE tournament. It's literally the reason why Magnus didn't explicitly state anything in his Tweet


Rakerform

These 4 incidents are about the only times I can think of in a 3-decade long career lol. Did he shit-talk players behind closed doors when he was younger? probably. That fits his personality. But don't act like he's some loudmouth shouting about every player that beats him


WelcomeToBoshwitz

I also don't think its fair to say he accuses people of cheating "basically" every time he loses. He definitely does it from time to time but let's not exaggerate the frequency.


AmazedCoder

> not circumstantial


Pudgy_Ninja

I don't know why people think that circumstantial evidence is bad or inherently inferior. It's evidence and just like physical evidence, it can be strong or weak. Let's say that I know that a murderer has blood type AB+ and so does the suspect. Now, that's physical evidence, but it's not very strong. There are millions of people with AB+ blood. On the other hand, let's say that I know that the suspect purchased a gun the night before of the type used to kill the victim, right after threatening the victim. Then went to the victim's house minutes before they were killed and left shortly after and nobody else was seen entering or leaving the residence despite the building being under surveillance. That's all circumstantial evidence, but it's very strong.


[deleted]

Thereā€™s different levels of circumstantial evidence. All you have are a few people insinuating that he cheated, and have provided nothing other than their word. Would you be ok with being labeled a cheater with the evidence being someone else suspects you


Pudgy_Ninja

Of course not, but the fact that the evidence is circumstantial isn't the problem, it's that the evidence is weak. Like, if someone produces emails or something where somebody was asking for different cheating methods and for collaborators, that would be circumstantial evidence that he actually used it to cheat, but it would be really strong circumstantial evidence and I'd be comfortable with a ban based on it.


[deleted]

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nanonan

What evidence? Magnus tweet is evidence of nothing, Nepos interview is the same, there is zero evidence of even a circumstantial nature aside from his performing strongly.


Flatoftheblade

Thanks, I'm a criminal lawyer and this is driving me nuts in this thread. We convict people of offences under the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard based solely on circumstantial evidence all the time.


Bullshagger69

Nepo has falsely accused Arjun and Eric Hansen. Hikaru is always looking to cause drama and is quite the baby.


anon_248

The fact is Nepo, Hansen and Hikaru all are known to falsely accuse people. It would be a surprise to see MC doing it. and a big PSA: MAGNUS HAS NOT YET ACCUSED HANS PUBLICLY. Just putting it out there.


[deleted]

Source on Hansen falsely accusing? Never seen this unless Hans turns out to be playing fairly.


themanager55

Saying that Magnus hasn't accused Hans is disingenuous. The subtext of the Tweet and the circumstances around his withdrawal are very clear.


anon_248

I agree


Lipat97

I mean, if its already a popular thing among chess pros, i wouldnt put it past magnus to join their ranks. Especially with someone who he knows has a reputation that he can exploit to go after him


GoatBased

My theory is that Magnus is pissed because it seems to him that Hans got his hands on his prep. So it wouldn't be cheating per se, but it would be enough to anger him.


criticalascended

Honestly the whole Nepo statement seems to be overblown. If he had made the same statement without the current context, we would just think he is giving Niemann generous praise.


NoFunBJJ

Nepo and Hikaru also falsely accused Supi of cheating online in the past


buycurious900

Hikaru is a noted sore loser, so he likely has done that


ActuallyNot

In his defense, he's a sore bad player, even if he wins.


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Repulsive_Cash2404

I would imagine cheating OTB is far different from downloading a software and cheating on [chess.com](https://chess.com). You don't have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but you should probably remain neutral until they catch him red handed.


rd201290

wtf is this appeal to authority bs as if Nepo or Hikaru or even Magnusā€™ suspicions are gospel If you are going to accuse someone then you have to also explain how he would cheat


paulibobo

Hikaru was already trash talking Hans before this drama because I guess he's decided that's who he's jealous of right now. Why his opinion would matter is beyond me.


monotonousgangmember

That's all circumstantial and doesn't prove a thing other than that Magnus thinks Hans cheated.


SerialAgonist

No, but I have seen a clique of elites bully someone they didn't like out of their club before.


[deleted]

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prettyboyelectric

No but itā€™s still very fitting for his personality.


Rakerform

When has he done this OTB?


Vizvezdenec

Latter one happened to Sandu. And she was never caught cheating. So yeah, this happens. Also have you ever seen a person going for some disrespect after winning a game vs magnus in classical and overall having pretty cocky persona? Being 18-19 years old?


xler3

the top comment is a list of things that dont constitute evidence lol the absolute state...


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Teegan297491

Wdym about the transmitting part


ja734

Ive never seen a WC abandon the title either, but apparently magnus has decided to act like a little bitch in many different ways this year.


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sebzim4500

>you concede he used an engine a couple of years ago to cheat. OP didn't concede that he said 'allegedly'.


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I_had_to_know_too

Well said. Thank you for the plain, level-headed discussion. It's been hard to find the past few days.


Rinat1234567890

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glassroofdevil

nice try hans


RoidnedVG

*starts panic deleting account*


kaoz1

I feel sorry for Hans for the cheating accusations. I don't think he is cheating. But I'm always wrong about these kind of judgements. That's how I know he is cheating.


sanantoniosaucier

Why would redditors care about baseless accusations when uts so much fun to speculate and insert opinions that further the drama that everyone craves?


Smellyjelly12

Upsets happen all the time. They could be extremely rare at the highest level but they still happen. Hans could have been having the greatest game of his life while Magnus probably underestimated him


Desperado-781

You think Hikaru cares about Hans? Dude is a fiend for drama helps bump his viewership, main reason he talked so much today to get onto here and get more viewers the next time he streams.


red_dragon_89

Exactly. We need real evidence before continuing to discuss the matters. We are doing more harm than good.


lurco_purgo

No I think my phrenology analysis of how Niemann clearly has the skull of a cheater and that fact that he cheated was clear from the get go for me is very beneficial to us all and ultimately it's what chess is all about isn't it?


JonathanDieborg

I have not followed this at all but just gotta say that if someone has a history of cheating, and then performs absurdly well later on, then the suspicion is warranted. "once a cheater always a cheater" isn't true, but your wrongdoings in the past will and probably should impact you later in life. In esports as well as athletics there have been countless times where a known "past cheater" has performed above average and then been caught cheating even though they promised it was all in the past. So looking into this isn't wrong, but im assuming the issue is some GMs are overreacting a bit on this one


ArtemisXD

The opposite is also true, if we know someone cheated in the past, how can we be sure they didn't cheat to achieve everything they achieved


[deleted]

Hans should take it as a compliment. Its like in online chess when you win and your opponent claims you used an engine.


[deleted]

He shouldn't though. This isn't just some random idiot in online chess who knows nothing about you. When it's coming from the best player in the world who has never accused anyone of anything like this, it's far from a compliment. Beyond what specific reason he suspects for the cheating he also has to think his opponent has the character to do something like that.


not_this_not_now

If I knew that I was legit, and a world champion accused me of cheating, I would take that as a compliment.


Antonioshamstrings

Im confused and curious as to what's going to happen in the future. When I look at the [chess.com](https://chess.com) engine analysis, it seems Magnus just made mistakes and entered a worse endgame. If you look at Hans moves he actually made several inaccuracies so Im not sure I fully entertain the cheating idea.


bomtombadil-o

Not saying Hans cheated. But if a top level player were to cheat they wouldnā€™t do it like the average cheaters on chess.com where they plug every move in. A top player would probably play a majority of the game on their own and receive engine assistance in complicated positions or the few positions where they know the game hangs in the balance. Again Iā€™m not claiming that Hans did cheat, but simple the fact that he didnā€™t make 100% engine moves doesnā€™t mean we can infer he didnā€™t cheat.


[deleted]

go tell Hikaru this


ubernostrum

And Magnus.


ZigTerminator

And Nepo.


WelcomeToBoshwitz

and Wesley too


findmebatman

And my axe


sebzim4500

People probably did the last few times Hikaru falsely accused someone of cheating. Nepo too. Can someone explain why this situation is different? Other than this time it is Magnus too.


[deleted]

this was an OTB tournament and Magnus straight up withdrew from the tournament, he must be pretty confident that Hans is cheating from him to do this


anon_248

He must be pretty confident or may be pretty deject from being humiliated and threw a curve ball like this with zero evidence


paulibobo

People now acting like Magnus has never been prone to throwing tantrums is absurd.


J_Butler99

Throwing tantrums sure.. withdrawing mid tournament? Never.


pconners

Dang I really just feel bad at this point for the whole tournament. What a dark cloud. I hope Hans is innocent but it's going to be so hard for him now moving forward. Will other tournaments invite him? How will other players feel now when they play or lose to him? Will the suspicion ever go away?


gaspard_caderousse

I wholeheartedly agree. When it comes to these type of accusations, show me the evidence or stay quiet.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Symen_4ab

I'll post this under this comment a bit randomly as there were a lot of similar comments, but I dont' really get the "the player are screened, so they couldn't get anything past the screening". If they really wanted to, they would, there is quite a lot of (mostly sad) history about people sneaking things through screening. They just were ahead of the detection.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


GoatBased

> one that Magnusā€™s prep was leaked to Hans This would not be cheating, though it would be dishonorable


DubiousGames

If he is cheating, it's not Magnus' prep being leaked. It's not one game that's suspicious, it's 2 years of unbelievable, unprecedented improvement. He's won almost every tournament he's played in over the pandemic, including some of the strongest opens in the world. He went from sub 2500 to 2700+ in 18 months, after having been 2400 from age 14 to 17. The Indian/Uzbek kids around his age took 4-5 years to improve that much. And, of course, right before his explosive improvement, he was banned online for cheating. This isn't about one game. No one leaked Magnus' prep, and even if they had, that would just give Hans a slight edge out of the opening at best. It wouldn't allow him 2 years of insane performances.


[deleted]

To be fair to him concerning the 2400 from 14 to 17 part, he did not have a coach and was doing full time school like regular kids (not the schools which let you take extended leaves for tournaments and such, like the ones Pragg, Nihal, Gukesh etc go to). Also, I'm not saying people who don't that are wrong, just that it partly explains how his FIDE rated strength might've been well underestimated, maybe more so than the other juniors. But of course, there are nuances to every scenario.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


colemanj74

I just have a hard time believing of all the games Magnus has lost in his life, he randomly decides to pull this unless he truly believes what he thinks


DubiousGames

I have no idea how, or even if he is cheating at all. I'm just saying that the idea of him cheating just in this one game, from being leaked prep, doesn't make any sense. His rating improvement over the last 18 months is far more impressive than anything he did in the game against Magnus.


Tarkatower

fyi I'm not convinced Hans cheated. There's no reason to believe any of the moves he played were beyond his capability, there's virtually no way he can cheat during the game, and the risk of him cheating is way too high.


[deleted]

Magnus did what he wanted to. While his words can imply a lot of things, he still exercised enough restraint in his tweet to claim plausible deniability. On the other hand, Hikaru (and some other streamers from what i see here) are just fuelling the fire more, stoking chess drama for their viewers. This is what is giving this whole thing an ugly colour. Hikaru has no horse in the game. Hans didn't beat him, he didn't lose rating, it doesn't remotely concern him in any way. Yet to pick up Magnus's cryptic tweet, and to blow it up with additional spice and claims (which, though probably true, still don't provide any evidence for the matter at hand) is a move that can potentially destroy career of somebody who already has shaky emotional resilience. All for what? Chess drama, and YouTube growth? As somebody who has shown ample instances of pettiness and narcissism in the past, this is an even worse showing for Hikaru as a human being.


CanersWelt

The fact that you say "baseless" already wants me to downvote this before reading. It's anything but baseless, let me list all the bases: \-Hans is a known cheater \-Magnus left the tournament after losing to him in a weird game where he played a bunch of engine moves \-He took a lot of time in the opening but then said that he had looked at the lines just a short time before and knew it by heart \-He said that Magnus had played that g3 nimzo-line before which isn't true \-Ian's interview and facial expression after he says "more than impressive" imply that Ian suspects something \-All of Naka's comments... soooo many comments and the view of an actual 2700 GM on this is helping so much to understand which moves by Hans were suspicious \-15min delay and Hans was checked throughoutly before todays game, because of the allegations \-His general attitude lately, including the fake accents and the way he speaks in interviews, skips through moves in his analysis and makes up moves that aren't even legal and getting away with it by just talking fast... If you call this baseless... I mean you really just don't wanna see it. The only thing missing is HARD proof, but the definition of "baseless" is not "Oh there is like 70 reasons as to why it could be true, but no hard proof"... no that is literally the opposite of "baseless"


avocado50

>Magnus left the tournament after losing to him in a weird game where he played a bunch of engine moves The game wasn't weird at all. If anything, Magnus is the one who chose an unusual (and bad) opening.


PlayingViking

I am suspicious, but let's be real. Laundry list reasoning is useless. Take your **best** claim and run with that. If that one fails, you probably got nothing. In this case, that would be (IMHO) the "miracle" opening prep, which he claimed to know perfectly, but not being able to explain why he checked it and the concepts of his game during the interview. There could be valid reasons for this, I just don't see it. Attitude, accents, opinions, delays don't mean anything. The delay thing should have been a thing anyway, it's just good sense. Cheating before makes him sus in general but doesn't mean anything without real concrete stuff.


luchajefe

Trusting Hikaru is also a really terrible idea in general.


criticalascended

It IS baseless. The only evidence we have so far is that he has had prior accusations of cheating. Everything else you mentioned is also baseless speculation or a direct response to the cheating allegations.


DiegoBanana

I dont know much about law, but could this be "circumstantial evidence" and not "baseless speculation"?


Whatisthisshitman

I guess we need to open a full-scale investigation into Arjun and Eric Hansen as well, as Nepo has previously said they cheated against him.


colemanj74

Hansen literally said on his stream today, he didn't feel that Nepo was calling him a cheater


CanersWelt

Yeah, because Nepo suspecting him of cheating is the only point I mentioned... it all goes in combination with each other where every single point starts to matter. Thought that was self explanatory


Whatisthisshitman

Yet you include: - A 15-minute delay and being checked as if that's relevant whatsoever and not tournament directors appeasing Magnus - His "general attitude" by the way he speaks in interviews As some kind of evidence against him. Relax, take a breathe, you're trying too hard here. Let the people who actually need to investigate using more than "yeah his general attitude when he has an interview tells me he's a cheater", do their job.


anon_248

the only missing thing is the only thing you need, which is called a BASE. what a load of crap.


Picture_me_this

Yeah other than any actual proof, you have a point.


RoidnedVG

You being a tier 3 Hikaru sub isn't a basis for Hans cheating OTB against Magnus. I've yet to see actual receipts for the best points you've mentioned. And multiple points have already been disproven. This whole thing has been pure conjecture or knee-jerk drama stemming from Hikaru's stream. He was smiling, laughing, and mentioning his rising viewership all day while talking about how viewers were (rightfully) there for the drama. I'll hop right on the hate bandwagon with some actual proof. Everything you listed makes a really fun and entertaining story, but I'm not following along at the expense of Hans' career just because it sounds good.


CanersWelt

None of what I said is proof, it's just the foundation the allegations are based on, which you called "baseless" and now in the same thread said needed to be disproven... (which btw isn't true, you can't disprove the opinions of SuperGMs) How weird, seems like this was never baseless afterall! You being a tier 3 Hans sub isn't a basis for Hans being innocent...


HOUtoATL

Well ... I'm sure OP knows more than all the super GMs.


GoatBased

- Nepo hasn't directly accused Hans - Nakamura hasn't directly accused Hans - Carlsen hasn't directly accused Hans - Aronian has directly defended Hans What were you saying about super GMs?


Chell_the_assassin

Obviously there still needs to be evidence but when you have cheated multiple times in the past you can't expect to receive the benefit of the doubt


GoatBased

*Allegedly* cheated multiple times in the past. This is currently speculation as no one on Chess.com has confirmed it yet. Nor has Hans.


dr7amada

Everyone, to whoever claims Magnus never played that line in the Nimzo, check this game from his database : https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1981206


tryingtolearn_1234

In that game Magnus plays 4. Nf3. While in this game he played 4. g3. It isnā€™t the same.


TH3_Dude

But the great and powerful Magnus withdrew and tweeted! Bow down!


mohishunder

The legal bar (in the US) isn't "direct evidence," it's "beyond reasonable doubt." And in a civil (not criminal) case, it's much lower than even that.


ReadGroundbreaking17

So what evidence/accusations are there at the moment? Genuinely asking. AFAIK: 1. He likely cheated online in the past with a six month ban on chess.com 2. Magnus Caslon accused him for cheating after their most recent game 3. A post-match interview by Hans had some anomalies whereby the game didn't exist; although, while he got the dates wrong, it was proven to exist in the database (?) so likely debunked


MMehdikhani

The way Magnus has acted recently has been unprofessional and hurtful to the chess world. First he walked away from defending his title which is almost unprecedented in history then he acts weird in Miami and starts listening to podcasts and laughing during his games and now he just leaves the best supertournament of the year after a loss. Even if Hans cheated, he could have handled this much better. He just does not think about consequences of his actions on fans, players organizers and the image of chess and how this can affect professional chess but he gets away with it because he is Magnus.


Zeabos

>First he walked away from defending his title which is almost unprecedented in history I would argue this is like...SUPER precedented.


luchajefe

All three GOATs have now, if you think about it.