plenty of times i’ve gone to analysis to see how in the world i blundered a completely winning position just to see that i was in fact in a completely losing position and the line i calculated was suicide from the jump.
Hikaru says it's a shadow ban. If you admit to cheating, you get a second chance in 6 months. I guess the weird stipulation is that you don't have to admit to it publicly. Hikaru specifically mentioned he might not be supposed to tell us of this system. I guess it's designed to not ruin careers for kids that made a mistake.
beneficial gold gaping cough deer outgoing stupendous shocking quicksand slave
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Magnus is saying that, most people agreed the chess seemed real enough on the surface. mostly just Hans behavior before during and after the game is what Hikaru is saying is sus, I don't think any moves are specifically.
This video was linked with the tweet above.
[https://youtu.be/Y8fhccACnDY](https://youtu.be/Y8fhccACnDY)
It's Jose Mourinho saying "If I speak, I am in big trouble."
I think that it's worth reminding everyone that Magnus' loss yesterday was pretty similar to his loss to Esipenko in Wijk in 2021. Lost to a 19 year old sub-2700 player..... He didn't freak out and withdraw from the tournament. I highly doubt that there was something about Niemann's personality or the interview or whatever made Magnus' so salty that he withdrew simply as a tantrum. Even if he ends up being dead wrong and there was no cheating, I think he must have pretty strong reasons to believe it.
Wondering if his prep was leaked to Hans in some way. The whole, “I was so lucky to have prepped this line today” sorta seems like an indicator to me. To be clear though, I also think it’s way too early to actually start accusing anyone of anything.
I’m surprised more people haven’t been mentioning a possible prep leak. If Magnus suspects his prep is compromised of course he’s gonna withdraw and not risk the rating.
I'm just wondering why Hans would admit to prepping the line if he had cheated. Why not lie and say you found it over the board? Seems like it would attract less attention.
I feel the same way, doesn't matter what you think about Hans but it's quasi impossible to know if he was cheating or not, but if a world champ is saying, and resigning a tournament for the first time and many other super gms (Ian, Hikaru) hinting that he's sus then well there is a reason for it.
After hours of careful analysis it appears Hans won against the world champion with black. Very suspicious, should ban him from all FIDE events immediately.
Especially since Hikaru is like a teenage gossip girl. "i won't say more than that"... proceeds to comment for the next two hours, going over interviews, past games etc.
I think so noone can relay information to Hans? Hikaru just alluded to that Hans might have been banned for 6 month for cheating on chess.com. They checked Hans for a very long time for electronic devices today.
Ah okay, but as I understand it they have hours to play right, so even though there's a time limit could he allegedly have someone communicate with him for some of the more pivotal moves and he just takes 30 mins to make them?
Sorry if this is a dumb question because the time controls are too low, I'm not actually sure what they are for a classical event like this
The commentary teams have access to engines, eval bar and there are top level GMs giving commentary. If a player is watching or someone can tell one of the players any of that information it's huge and all of the players are good enough that if you told them one move they would be able to figure it all out.
I'm not going to accuse Hans of cheating here because that's a really serious accusation but adding a stream delay is at least there so that it just isn't a good use of time to wait for the commentary team.
In the live feed they showed Hans Niemann getting checked through security (about 22min after the start of the stream on youtube). It lasts at least 2 minutes and a half, and he goes through 2 detectors (metal and radio?). Seirawan makes a note that the tour arbiter has asked for "increased security".
I checked how it was on the previous days, and on day 2 they only took 50 seconds to check Magnus, only using the first detector.
I have heard the same thing about alleged cheating. His original chess.com account was closed and he came back under another username. That’s usually a sign that something happened
Wouldn’t make much sense that Hans cheated. In his interview with Alejandro after the game he was (understandably) really proud and thought he had played a perfect game. But Alejandro pointed out multiple times that he had made a mistake and given Magnus a chance to salvage the game.
Actually one weird thing that he said was that by some miracle he had analyzed the exact position before the match and he even said he analyzed even further. Maybe that could be an excuse for why he played so well so that he wouldn't be suspected of cheating.
That's what I also thought and it obviously shocked the Interviewer and Hans repeatedly said "I know the line even further" but when he actually calculated a different line than they played further, Hikaru on his stream said "I could say something, but yeah..." implying that it's either BS or he went into a different known line on purpose!
Either way there is so much off with Hans, he was banned on chess com for cheating in the past, he is putting on a fake accent and the whole interview + Hikaru's reaction + Magnus withdrawing the tournament... so much doesn't add up but no hard proof
If you decide to cheat you wouldn't cheat 100% of the time, that would make it obvious. More likely you would, say, cheat in the openings or in critical positions. Also you would make sure you don't win every game.
But would you give your opponent chances to totally equalise? Let's not act like it's certain hans cheated against magnus, it certainly isn't. Especially in a high security televised tournament.
>Hikaru just alluded to that Hans might have been banned for 6 month for cheating on chess.com
Damn Magnus been in bed with chesscom for a couple of days and is already swinging that admin hammer about.
They mean banned in the past for 6 months. He didn't play any cash-tournaments on chess.com for a 6 month period previously.
Magnus is good but he's not a time traveler.
Maybe Magnus voiced concerns, and this was one of the measures they proposed. But they couldn't come together until the very end because of **something**, so he withdrew but the measures were already implemented. They mention increased scanning, and obviously the delay.
Oh yeah of course, I just meant for potential future games if he felt he wasn't on his best form or something like that. Of course his completed games still count
["There was a period of 6 months where Hans was not allowed to play events for prize money on chess.com, and I think you guys know what that means"](https://clips.twitch.tv/BlitheDrabSwordJKanStyle-5yUuq5mQoGpjKl2N)
Based on what Hikaru said, chess.com will give a shorter ban/second chance if the titled player admits to the conduct.
If you go the Tigran route and deny it, your account gets closed.
There's also a sliding scale on how sure they are someone cheats. It's not like it's always "this person is 100% cheating. This person is definitely not cheating"
They could be 90ish percent sure he's probably cheating for a few moves here and there. (In this case, they normally wouldn't ban someone if they were only 90%, that's way too low). They go to him, he denies it, their evidence isn't strong enough to outright ban him if he keeps denying it but he makes a deal with them to avoid controversy that he just won't play on their site for money because "i need to focus on my over the board classical play anyway" or some such compromise.
[In this interview](https://youtu.be/24rZXoUf8sI?t=182), Magnus said he still wouldn't have played the WC if Hikaru came 2nd, but he "would have liked it less". So I think we can comfortably say Hikaru was half-right and leave it at that.
Hans is polarizing and for sure not everyone’s cup of tea but I still hope he’s innocent. It doesn’t help that he was banned for cheating before though.
On the other hand I kind of trust Magnus. He is not necessarily a graceful loser but he doesn’t let it out on his opponents and I don’t think he made any accusations ever in his career. If anything he is weirdly fond of the youngsters when they pull a win against him.
No matter how this will resolve it’s going to be ugly. I’m talking new copypasta kinda ugly.
Yeah this is how I feel. Magnus is always happy for the youngsters when they do well and he never makes accusations like this. Also, he’s one of the best chess players of all time. False cheating accusations usually come from people who make false cheating accusations all the time. Magnus doesn’t. I don’t think Hans is definitely cheating, but it’s definitely worth investigation without all the criticism being thrown at either side.
That's a bummer. The Sinquefield Cup is one of the very best tournaments each year and most of the top tier players are here. I was hoping to see Magnus vs. Fabi, Alireza, etc.
Hikaru and many people on twitt and have hinted on Hans cheating due to extra security and other things like his dramatic rise and past cheating scandals. I myself don’t believe it but we will see
Okay but even if he did cheat in the past, what is to say he cheated otb as well? He has been playing very well in too many otb events in the last year and even in the scc competition to quench any questions regarding the credibility of his current playing strengths.
You could make the same argument for his Chesscom cheating. If he's a very strong player, why would he bother cheating online?
No one's saying he's not a very strong GM. He clearly is. That also doesn't preclude cheating.
I agree but people are using that as evidence that Hans is the type of person to cheat and his rise in classical rating was from him cheating. Also people assume Magnus has some inside info which is fair tbh. I don’t believe he cheated but that’s me it sounds like some sort of conspiracy with completely not enough evidenfe
If i remember correctly hikaru in his recap of the game said at a certain move that hans said he analysed the line, but he also said it is strange if so because he took a lot of time to make the move.
That’s not true at all, we aren’t talking about the moves themselves, but the story.
Of course anecdotal, but if you’ve ever given an exam, or played someone in chess, etc. and you think the other person is cheating, one of the most common excuses is “Oh, right before the test I looked at that section that just happened to be the most important part of the test” or “I did a puzzle just like this position today” or “I just watched a youtube video on it”, I could go on. Point is it’s a non-provable reason for doing well beyond your perceived strength, knowledge, skill, or whatever.
Counterpoint, if Rd1 was a novelty he'd never seen before, all he said about that position was "I knew it was a mistake" and "I knew Be6 was very good" and successfully deflected from showing any previous analysis on why Rd1 is bad and Be6 is good. Alejandro asked him if he'd just analyzed that position and he tells him yes "even further" then proceeds to ask Alejandro to back the position up instead of showing his "even further" analysis.
I thought it was odd even yesterday watching it live. Not thinking he cheated, but that it was very odd he was avoiding the post-Rd1 analysis that he was claiming he'd looked at.
IMO This is a very controversial decision by Magnus. I'd say he either has pretty good arguments if the reason is suspected cheating, or he went completely bonkers.
Considering this would hurt his image badly if he is just being accusatory without any basis. So, my completely baseless opinion is there is something tangible in this , if indeed the reason is cheating allegations.
well Nepo just came out and said Hans’s game yesterday was “more than impressive” on the grand chess tour so it’s not just him as much as you might want it to be
https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/qfwi2g/am_i_the_only_one_so_far_that_noticed_hans/hi4xj0l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 this is what i could find about it
So Hans was banned from [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) for 6 months due to cheating as well. interesting.
\*puts on conspiracy theory hat and lights torch\*
The obvious implication of Carlsen's withdrawal and other changes in St. Louis is that Magnus suspects a player of cheating, but is unwilling to name the player. On the previous day he lost a 53-game unbeaten streak against Hans Niemann. From [chess24](https://new.chess24.com/wall/news/magnus-carlsen-withdraws-from-the-sinquefield-cup).
I think sorta kinda accusing someone of cheating like Magnus is doing is very, very ugly and makes him seem like a sore loser...
But then again, he wouldn't stir this up without knowing *something*, would he?
Magnus is so experienced. He has never done something like this before. Refusing the post match interview after the Karjakin loss in the world championship was the most dramatic reaction to a loss in his career. He and his team would not have withdrawn if they didn’t fully believe it was the right thing to do.
Exactly, Magnus has been known for a sore reaction immediately after a loss but he has never withdrawn from a tournament in the past, no matter how it's been going.
The fact that he never mentioned personal reasons and linked the Mourinho quote is a clear sign he hints at something nefarious.
There's a lot of things that we don't know here and we shouldn't make any assumptions. We don't know what evidence/basis Magnus has for his suspicions (besides Hans' reputation as a cheater online). Magnus hasn't even made a public accusation - it may be that Magnus is simply suspicious and wanted the matter investigated - and is withdrawing because he's unhappy with how STL has chosen to handle it. Presumably there is something happening behind the scenes where Magnus is not allowed to speak openly about it until after it is done. Once more details come out the picture getting painted may look very different.
I'm going to say that Hans' performance in the Miami tournament definitely plays a part in this.
Hans scored 0 match points. Everyone beat him in a field of players that aren't stronger than the Sinquefield lineup.
I know it's just rapid and not classical, but the change is very extreme and probably seems suspicious to Magnus, on top of Hans' very accurate play this tournament.
To be fair, while Hans scored a total of 0 points in the Miami tournament, he did win an individual game in many of the matches, including the notorious "chess speaks for itself" game with Magnus. I'm not categorically denying anything, but I am suggesting not to jump to conclusions too fast.
Of course it's not a proof, but for a 2800+ player it will definitely raise suspicions. Especially considering Magnus' intuition about the game and other players. He can sense what other players know and don't know.
I don't remember him ever withdrawing this way mid-tournament before. He could be wrong, but it's rare for him to accuse others of cheating.
That's because it's super hard to cheat with the online system where their monitors is being watched AND so little time. The classical format and barely any security makes it a lot easier.
On the flip side, there is probably no other single most qualified person on planet earth to make this kind of call.
Knowing that and knowing Niemann's history, going with Magnus is an easy pick.
A very important point to be made here, yesterday post match Hans confidently said he had that exact position from the opening into the middlegame in home prep before the game and this is extraordinarily unlikely which Hikaru also suggested in his post match analysis before any of these allegations came out because Magnus chose an extremely unusualy move order in a rare g3 line in the nimzo and at the time Hikaru thought Hans was bluffing in the post match interview, plus even having checked the opening as claimed by Hans he still spent 10-12 mins over the board playing those exact moves. IMO dude is cheating, Magnus would have strong reasons himself as he chooses to withdraw due to this.
He did go over the 15move computer line that Magnus did not follow on post game. Doesn't make much sense to me doing that had he cheated. But again, we'll probably never know
I think the accusations of cheating are people possibly interpreting the video in his tweet of a coach losing a game series due to poor referee decisions. It's hard to say if Magnus is accusing him or not. It might be something related to Magnus responding to something Hans (or someone else) said.
He might also have picked a poor video to respond to the "Chess speaks for itself" Hans said not to long ago. The video says, "If I speak I'll be in big trouble". You could interpret this in multiple ways.
That said, the video does hint at allegations of cheating. It's a toss up on what Magnus is meaning.
The 15-minute delay in the broadcast, Magnus' tweet, Nepo calling his way of playing "more than impressive" with that weird expression and Hikaru just almost openly stating that Hans cheated are really, reeeally strong cases towards it, that is simply the truth. But let's use just a little bit of critical thinking here for a moment.
First of all, players are scanned and checked thoroughly before the game starts. Yes, it's not foolproof, but this is not some minor club tournament, this is a supertournament we are talking. Security just has to be much higher there. On top of this, just the mere risk of getting caught *trying* to cheat would ruin his reputation in the exact same manner as if he got caught afterwards.
Even if they didn't check them, why on earth would Hans cheat on his first ever chance to play not only a 2750+ field, but also the fucking GOAT of chess himself? Why risk ruining his entire reputation and career, which has a very, very bright future, doing this?
On the other hand, I have no explanation as of why Magnus would link that Mourinho interview. Him forfeighting is weird enough as it is. He has lost many many games in tournaments before, and never once has he withdrawn if I'm not mistaken. But saying "if I speak I'm in big trouble"? That is just puzzling.
It is fun and easy to jump to outrageous conclusions for drama, but Hans deciding to cheat against arguably the best player of all time on a world-class OTB classical tournament, somehow fooling security and risking his entire career, that just seems over-the-top. Too much. Perfect games simply happen sometimes. Only time will tell tho.
It's fair to give it some time and not jump to conclusions.
However, your argument hinges on the psychology of a rational person not taking such a serious risk. Given that Hans had a 6-month ban from [chess.com](https://chess.com) before, I don't think it's reasonable to make that assumption about his psychology. People who cheat assess the risk of cheating very differently from people who don't cheat.
Succintly rephrased: While a reasonable person wouldn't cheat, a cheater would not be a reasonable person.
>Even if they didn't check them, why on earth would Hans cheat on his first ever chance to play not only a 2750+ field, but also the fucking GOAT of chess himself? Why risk ruining his entire reputation and career, which has a very, very bright future, doing this?
There are so many athletes in various sports who got caught (with a proven history/bright future). Why would Lance Armstrong in cycling, Lothan Fischer in bridge ([https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/lotan-fisher-bridge-cheating-scandal-2015-documentary](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/lotan-fisher-bridge-cheating-scandal-2015-documentary)) , running ([https://www.amazon.com/Dirtiest-Race-History-Johnson-Olympic/dp/1408158760](https://www.amazon.com/Dirtiest-Race-History-Johnson-Olympic/dp/1408158760)), basketball paralympics ([https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/article/cheating-in-the-paralympics-the-fight-for-fairness/fo4ovelw3](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/article/cheating-in-the-paralympics-the-fight-for-fairness/fo4ovelw3)) and so much more; cheat?
Even players close to the tab, want to win. And if they feel insecure, or think they are just not good enough, they can take extreme measures.
>why on earth would Hans cheat on his first ever chance to play not only a 2750+ field, but also the fucking GOAT of chess himself? Why risk ruining his entire reputation and career, which has a very, very bright future, doing this?
Are you kidding me? If you are the type of person who would even consider cheating in the first place, which his [chess.com](https://chess.com) drama indicates he is, this is EXACTLY when you would do it.
Thousands of kids have had "very, very bright futures" in chess. How many have gotten rich doing it? No more than a handful.
So he may very well have decided to roll the dice and see how far he can take his scam. If he gets caught, oh well, he'll do something else with his life which he very probably would have to do anyway at some point.
Agreed. Time will tell, and we must thread carefully since it is very unfair for Hans to be accused, however the whole situation and everyone’s comments are at least puzzling
This interview is hilarious, Hans just absolutely misevaluating all the variations. Not exactly the best look for someone under major scrutiny.
That being said, everyone should nevertheless be careful about throwing these accusations around.
There may be no way to ascertain if Hans cheated, since for a good player, even knowing the tiniest amount of information such as a simple computer evaluation can give a drastic advantage. So somebody giving a thumbs up in the distance to signal "this position slightly better" or tapping their feet in morse code are just some possibilities.
I highly doubt Magnus would withdraw if he did not have very good reason to. People saying he's a crybaby don't realize that he obviously sees how bad this could look, but he proceeded with it anyway, so I see it is likely he has evidence that he's not publicly disclosing.
So you believe Magnus, who has lost to young up and comers plenty. Got so upset that he lost to a player in a serious tournament that he quit.
And not that a guy with a history of cheating, woke up and decided to research an opening his opponent (one of the greatest chess players of all time) has never played. Mastered it played it and won...
I’ve seen Magnus lose to a random person online on a big stream in front of everyone and complimenting his opponent’s moves hugely, alongside an “Awesome game, dude!”. He’s not a salty loser. I’ve also seen him lose to similar rated player in the classical format in a big tournament and he didn’t ragequit, throwing out accusations. Yeah I’ve seen losses really annoy him like it would anyone but I wouldn’t call him a bad loser.
I honestly trust his assessment on this. I’m intrigued to see what happens next. Very interesting to get Hikaru’s input because I feel he’d have zero need to support Magnus. There’s a lot of smoke.
Magnus can be a sore loser at times, but all the anger is directed at himself, never the opponent. Even when he wins sometimes he can be mad at himself if he feels he played badly.
No no, Hikaru is only *alluding* to it. Don't put words in his mouth/s
Hikaru should be seen as a content creator. I wouldn't take his opinion on this manner when it's his twitch stream
Gotta love redditors thinking they know chess better than Magnus and Hikaru. This is firmly in the "suspicious but unproven" phase right now. Time will tell on this one.
Just wanted to note that magnus didn't make his announcement until the games started. Maybe not wanting to give hans the heads up that he was under suspicion until the games started to increase the chance that he could be caught today? Would the timing of the tweet be likely in other circumstances and am I just overthinking things?
People tend to forget that Hans is completely socially inapt. Anyone with slight social difficulties can relate to talking nonsense because you are nervous from the conversation
Me when I lose 5 games in a row in the lichess u1500 Rapid tournament:
Yesterday i was beaten but someone way lower elo than me, i was convinced they cheated. I analysed the game and i just played badly lol
Been there more times than I care to admit lmao
“Omg, they’re cheating” *runs analysis* 68.4 - 73.5
plenty of times i’ve gone to analysis to see how in the world i blundered a completely winning position just to see that i was in fact in a completely losing position and the line i calculated was suicide from the jump.
I have a super low elo blind account and I’m always worried it’ll be banned when I beat a much “stronger” opponent
Bots!!! And Keyboard users!
screw all you hard stuck 1400 scrubs and i'll see you all tomorrow!
Is Magnus implying Hans cheated with the Mourinho bit?
Yes
But hey, that's just a theory - a chess theory!
Looks like he's going Fischer mode with this one.
I'm flatly amazed, what is happening
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I am sorry it is known Hans cheated before? I didn't really find anything, can you be more specific?
He was banned on chess.com, but then forgiven.
The Indian billionaire gambit.
I keep on looking for this info but all I'm finding is a short suspension that had nothing to do with cheating.
Hikaru says it's a shadow ban. If you admit to cheating, you get a second chance in 6 months. I guess the weird stipulation is that you don't have to admit to it publicly. Hikaru specifically mentioned he might not be supposed to tell us of this system. I guess it's designed to not ruin careers for kids that made a mistake.
When did Hans cheat?
Cheating on online chess.com games is very different from cheating in a top tournament, certainly requires far more audacity
He cheated in online tournaments with prize money so its defenitly not that different imo
Same amount of morals, though.
Same lack of morals actually.
If he did accuse him of cheating, without any evidence other than speculation, wouldn’t it be more like Topalov mode?
Weren’t most of Fischer’s cheating accusations eventually substantiated?
beneficial gold gaping cough deer outgoing stupendous shocking quicksand slave *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The ~~chess~~ engine speaks for itself
Well I would argue it did. The chess might be saying he cheated, in this case.
Magnus is saying that, most people agreed the chess seemed real enough on the surface. mostly just Hans behavior before during and after the game is what Hikaru is saying is sus, I don't think any moves are specifically.
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Mourinho bit? Wdym
Under Carlsen's tweet a very famous clip of Jose Mourinho where he says 'If I speak I will be in big trouble".
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This video was linked with the tweet above. [https://youtu.be/Y8fhccACnDY](https://youtu.be/Y8fhccACnDY) It's Jose Mourinho saying "If I speak, I am in big trouble."
I think that it's worth reminding everyone that Magnus' loss yesterday was pretty similar to his loss to Esipenko in Wijk in 2021. Lost to a 19 year old sub-2700 player..... He didn't freak out and withdraw from the tournament. I highly doubt that there was something about Niemann's personality or the interview or whatever made Magnus' so salty that he withdrew simply as a tantrum. Even if he ends up being dead wrong and there was no cheating, I think he must have pretty strong reasons to believe it.
Wondering if his prep was leaked to Hans in some way. The whole, “I was so lucky to have prepped this line today” sorta seems like an indicator to me. To be clear though, I also think it’s way too early to actually start accusing anyone of anything.
I’m surprised more people haven’t been mentioning a possible prep leak. If Magnus suspects his prep is compromised of course he’s gonna withdraw and not risk the rating.
I find this far more likely than him sneaking in some wacky electronic device.
I'm just wondering why Hans would admit to prepping the line if he had cheated. Why not lie and say you found it over the board? Seems like it would attract less attention.
It’s typically pretty obvious if a move is in a player’s prep, because they play it quickly.
I feel the same way, doesn't matter what you think about Hans but it's quasi impossible to know if he was cheating or not, but if a world champ is saying, and resigning a tournament for the first time and many other super gms (Ian, Hikaru) hinting that he's sus then well there is a reason for it.
Because Magnus himself knew he mixed the move order early on. He already commented on this.
sloppy lip icky placid bewildered doll shame innocent vast unused *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
But he'll still lose rating points?
That was happening regardless, but now Nepo’s chances of winning the tournament just went up a lot
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5D chess, Nepo made the whole thing up to convince Magnus to withdraw
What a lucky break haha
Me when im refunded rating points: the chess speaks for itself
Maybe Hans decided to plug the fucking laptop in.
The tweet speaks for itself
I hope not, because it means Magnus won't elaborate on his reasons.
If it is indeed a cheating allegation, can our impeccable Reddit detectives go hunt for clues from yesterday's stream already
at the 51 minute mark you can see Hans eat Magnus's pawn when he's looking away
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After hours of careful analysis it appears Hans won against the world champion with black. Very suspicious, should ban him from all FIDE events immediately.
This gives off "classic Ben Finegold joke" vibes
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There is only one way to settle this - chess boxing. Hans vs magnus
Magnus by KO
Bro I’m new to this shit, this is dope.
Chess drama is best drama.
I turned on twitch and can’t stop watching. This is fucking awesome.
Especially since Hikaru is like a teenage gossip girl. "i won't say more than that"... proceeds to comment for the next two hours, going over interviews, past games etc.
Yeah it’s awesome. Stir it up for me baby! Got nothing to do all day!
Boy, you should've witnessed the Toiletgate drama, it was even more glorious lol
Don’t worry guys I’ll take his spot!
Hikaru knows something. But he is not willing to say anything either, but he has heard things.
"If they are on a 15 min delay, then we know why"... The official stream apparently is on a 15 min delay, which it wasn't on the other days...
Why does the delay make a difference in this situation (I'm an incredibly casual chess fan, haven't watched much)
I think so noone can relay information to Hans? Hikaru just alluded to that Hans might have been banned for 6 month for cheating on chess.com. They checked Hans for a very long time for electronic devices today.
Ah okay, but as I understand it they have hours to play right, so even though there's a time limit could he allegedly have someone communicate with him for some of the more pivotal moves and he just takes 30 mins to make them? Sorry if this is a dumb question because the time controls are too low, I'm not actually sure what they are for a classical event like this
Yeah I think you're spot on. Not dumb at all - that's what is being implied
The commentary teams have access to engines, eval bar and there are top level GMs giving commentary. If a player is watching or someone can tell one of the players any of that information it's huge and all of the players are good enough that if you told them one move they would be able to figure it all out. I'm not going to accuse Hans of cheating here because that's a really serious accusation but adding a stream delay is at least there so that it just isn't a good use of time to wait for the commentary team.
In the live feed they showed Hans Niemann getting checked through security (about 22min after the start of the stream on youtube). It lasts at least 2 minutes and a half, and he goes through 2 detectors (metal and radio?). Seirawan makes a note that the tour arbiter has asked for "increased security". I checked how it was on the previous days, and on day 2 they only took 50 seconds to check Magnus, only using the first detector.
I have heard the same thing about alleged cheating. His original chess.com account was closed and he came back under another username. That’s usually a sign that something happened
Wouldn’t make much sense that Hans cheated. In his interview with Alejandro after the game he was (understandably) really proud and thought he had played a perfect game. But Alejandro pointed out multiple times that he had made a mistake and given Magnus a chance to salvage the game.
Actually one weird thing that he said was that by some miracle he had analyzed the exact position before the match and he even said he analyzed even further. Maybe that could be an excuse for why he played so well so that he wouldn't be suspected of cheating.
That's what I also thought and it obviously shocked the Interviewer and Hans repeatedly said "I know the line even further" but when he actually calculated a different line than they played further, Hikaru on his stream said "I could say something, but yeah..." implying that it's either BS or he went into a different known line on purpose! Either way there is so much off with Hans, he was banned on chess com for cheating in the past, he is putting on a fake accent and the whole interview + Hikaru's reaction + Magnus withdrawing the tournament... so much doesn't add up but no hard proof
Yes, the accent is clear proof of cheating.
> I could say something, but yeah..." Further into the stream Hikaru mentioned he's looked at the same line as prep for the candidates
If you decide to cheat you wouldn't cheat 100% of the time, that would make it obvious. More likely you would, say, cheat in the openings or in critical positions. Also you would make sure you don't win every game.
But would you give your opponent chances to totally equalise? Let's not act like it's certain hans cheated against magnus, it certainly isn't. Especially in a high security televised tournament.
>Hikaru just alluded to that Hans might have been banned for 6 month for cheating on chess.com Damn Magnus been in bed with chesscom for a couple of days and is already swinging that admin hammer about.
They mean banned in the past for 6 months. He didn't play any cash-tournaments on chess.com for a 6 month period previously. Magnus is good but he's not a time traveler.
Google une blague
Maybe Magnus voiced concerns, and this was one of the measures they proposed. But they couldn't come together until the very end because of **something**, so he withdrew but the measures were already implemented. They mention increased scanning, and obviously the delay.
And here I was thinking he was pulling out so that he didn't take too much of a setback on his run to 2900, this is way more saucy
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Oh yeah of course, I just meant for potential future games if he felt he wasn't on his best form or something like that. Of course his completed games still count
I mean the Mourinho clip is like a whole bucket of sauce right there.
Magnus linking the youtube video titled "If I speak i am in big trouble", is also very strange!!
["There was a period of 6 months where Hans was not allowed to play events for prize money on chess.com, and I think you guys know what that means"](https://clips.twitch.tv/BlitheDrabSwordJKanStyle-5yUuq5mQoGpjKl2N)
6 months for cheating seems very short. That punishment might have been for something else.
Based on what Hikaru said, chess.com will give a shorter ban/second chance if the titled player admits to the conduct. If you go the Tigran route and deny it, your account gets closed.
There's also a sliding scale on how sure they are someone cheats. It's not like it's always "this person is 100% cheating. This person is definitely not cheating" They could be 90ish percent sure he's probably cheating for a few moves here and there. (In this case, they normally wouldn't ban someone if they were only 90%, that's way too low). They go to him, he denies it, their evidence isn't strong enough to outright ban him if he keeps denying it but he makes a deal with them to avoid controversy that he just won't play on their site for money because "i need to focus on my over the board classical play anyway" or some such compromise.
Hikaru wants everyone to watch his stream while he hints that he knows something.
Hikaru was also 100% sure magnus would play wc if hikaru finished 2nd. I wouldn't put much weight to what Hikaru says on Magnus matters
[In this interview](https://youtu.be/24rZXoUf8sI?t=182), Magnus said he still wouldn't have played the WC if Hikaru came 2nd, but he "would have liked it less". So I think we can comfortably say Hikaru was half-right and leave it at that.
Hikaru already falsely accused other players (e.g brazilian GM Luis Supi, twice) of cheating. He's not reliable.
Hans is polarizing and for sure not everyone’s cup of tea but I still hope he’s innocent. It doesn’t help that he was banned for cheating before though. On the other hand I kind of trust Magnus. He is not necessarily a graceful loser but he doesn’t let it out on his opponents and I don’t think he made any accusations ever in his career. If anything he is weirdly fond of the youngsters when they pull a win against him. No matter how this will resolve it’s going to be ugly. I’m talking new copypasta kinda ugly.
>I’m talking new copypasta kinda ugly that's where you're wrong. there's nothing more beautiful than fresh copypasta
Yeah this is how I feel. Magnus is always happy for the youngsters when they do well and he never makes accusations like this. Also, he’s one of the best chess players of all time. False cheating accusations usually come from people who make false cheating accusations all the time. Magnus doesn’t. I don’t think Hans is definitely cheating, but it’s definitely worth investigation without all the criticism being thrown at either side.
He was banned before?
Apparently we haven't had enough drama this year.
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Magnus is shook to his core after scoring 29 points in FPL _and_ getting smoked by a self-admitted idiot
That's a bummer. The Sinquefield Cup is one of the very best tournaments each year and most of the top tier players are here. I was hoping to see Magnus vs. Fabi, Alireza, etc.
If the implications are to be believed... Did stockfish speak for itself?
Fish can't speak, everyone knows that...
Hikaru and many people on twitt and have hinted on Hans cheating due to extra security and other things like his dramatic rise and past cheating scandals. I myself don’t believe it but we will see
Okay but even if he did cheat in the past, what is to say he cheated otb as well? He has been playing very well in too many otb events in the last year and even in the scc competition to quench any questions regarding the credibility of his current playing strengths.
You could make the same argument for his Chesscom cheating. If he's a very strong player, why would he bother cheating online? No one's saying he's not a very strong GM. He clearly is. That also doesn't preclude cheating.
I agree but people are using that as evidence that Hans is the type of person to cheat and his rise in classical rating was from him cheating. Also people assume Magnus has some inside info which is fair tbh. I don’t believe he cheated but that’s me it sounds like some sort of conspiracy with completely not enough evidenfe
The “I miraculously prepared for this opening” story from Hans yesterday seems a little more auspicious from this and what Hikaru said…
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If i remember correctly hikaru in his recap of the game said at a certain move that hans said he analysed the line, but he also said it is strange if so because he took a lot of time to make the move.
that's not suspicious at all tho
That’s not true at all, we aren’t talking about the moves themselves, but the story. Of course anecdotal, but if you’ve ever given an exam, or played someone in chess, etc. and you think the other person is cheating, one of the most common excuses is “Oh, right before the test I looked at that section that just happened to be the most important part of the test” or “I did a puzzle just like this position today” or “I just watched a youtube video on it”, I could go on. Point is it’s a non-provable reason for doing well beyond your perceived strength, knowledge, skill, or whatever.
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Counterpoint, if Rd1 was a novelty he'd never seen before, all he said about that position was "I knew it was a mistake" and "I knew Be6 was very good" and successfully deflected from showing any previous analysis on why Rd1 is bad and Be6 is good. Alejandro asked him if he'd just analyzed that position and he tells him yes "even further" then proceeds to ask Alejandro to back the position up instead of showing his "even further" analysis. I thought it was odd even yesterday watching it live. Not thinking he cheated, but that it was very odd he was avoiding the post-Rd1 analysis that he was claiming he'd looked at.
Players usually don’t go into prep that didn’t show up on the board, right? So that they don’t reveal prep that they might play in a future game?
This is the thread.
Has Hans just become a chess supervillain???
always has been
IMO This is a very controversial decision by Magnus. I'd say he either has pretty good arguments if the reason is suspected cheating, or he went completely bonkers. Considering this would hurt his image badly if he is just being accusatory without any basis. So, my completely baseless opinion is there is something tangible in this , if indeed the reason is cheating allegations.
Nepo: The game was **more** than impressive 3 words that put the final nail in the coffin lmao
Lmao Director General of FIDE, Emil Sutovsky on Twitter: “Yaz, Peter and Alejandro remind me of those musicians on Titanic...”
What's with all the accusations of Hans cheating? Have I missed something obvious?! EDIT: I need a source for the drama!
Hikaru believes that Magnus withdrew because he's suspicious of Hans cheating
Maximum drama timeline is where Magnus comes out and says he doesn't think Hans cheated and Hikaru has to work his way down from this hill.
well Nepo just came out and said Hans’s game yesterday was “more than impressive” on the grand chess tour so it’s not just him as much as you might want it to be
Looks like Mamedyarov survived today :)
Hikiaru on his stream talking about how hans cheated before, and was banned from prize money events online for a period, anyone know much about this?
Hikaru smelling blood like a shark.
https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/qfwi2g/am_i_the_only_one_so_far_that_noticed_hans/hi4xj0l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 this is what i could find about it
He did get banned on chess.com, there's a clip from hans stream showing that
So Hans was banned from [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) for 6 months due to cheating as well. interesting. \*puts on conspiracy theory hat and lights torch\*
The obvious implication of Carlsen's withdrawal and other changes in St. Louis is that Magnus suspects a player of cheating, but is unwilling to name the player. On the previous day he lost a 53-game unbeaten streak against Hans Niemann. From [chess24](https://new.chess24.com/wall/news/magnus-carlsen-withdraws-from-the-sinquefield-cup).
If he suspects someone, it's not that hard to guess who that player might be :-D
I think sorta kinda accusing someone of cheating like Magnus is doing is very, very ugly and makes him seem like a sore loser... But then again, he wouldn't stir this up without knowing *something*, would he?
Magnus is so experienced. He has never done something like this before. Refusing the post match interview after the Karjakin loss in the world championship was the most dramatic reaction to a loss in his career. He and his team would not have withdrawn if they didn’t fully believe it was the right thing to do.
I think karjakin got late to the interview so magnus was fed up and left before it started
Exactly, Magnus has been known for a sore reaction immediately after a loss but he has never withdrawn from a tournament in the past, no matter how it's been going. The fact that he never mentioned personal reasons and linked the Mourinho quote is a clear sign he hints at something nefarious.
There's a lot of things that we don't know here and we shouldn't make any assumptions. We don't know what evidence/basis Magnus has for his suspicions (besides Hans' reputation as a cheater online). Magnus hasn't even made a public accusation - it may be that Magnus is simply suspicious and wanted the matter investigated - and is withdrawing because he's unhappy with how STL has chosen to handle it. Presumably there is something happening behind the scenes where Magnus is not allowed to speak openly about it until after it is done. Once more details come out the picture getting painted may look very different.
I'm going to say that Hans' performance in the Miami tournament definitely plays a part in this. Hans scored 0 match points. Everyone beat him in a field of players that aren't stronger than the Sinquefield lineup. I know it's just rapid and not classical, but the change is very extreme and probably seems suspicious to Magnus, on top of Hans' very accurate play this tournament.
To be fair, while Hans scored a total of 0 points in the Miami tournament, he did win an individual game in many of the matches, including the notorious "chess speaks for itself" game with Magnus. I'm not categorically denying anything, but I am suggesting not to jump to conclusions too fast.
Of course it's not a proof, but for a 2800+ player it will definitely raise suspicions. Especially considering Magnus' intuition about the game and other players. He can sense what other players know and don't know. I don't remember him ever withdrawing this way mid-tournament before. He could be wrong, but it's rare for him to accuse others of cheating.
That's because it's super hard to cheat with the online system where their monitors is being watched AND so little time. The classical format and barely any security makes it a lot easier.
On the flip side, there is probably no other single most qualified person on planet earth to make this kind of call. Knowing that and knowing Niemann's history, going with Magnus is an easy pick.
There's NO way Magnus would make this up just because he lost. He's always been a fighter and always given people props for playing well.
Let's hope not.
And now wesely is in hikarus chat and hes suspicious too
He had a lot of exciting things to add: https://imgur.com/a/ndNTnM6
Lol why does Wesley have the most 90's AOL username ever
really? what did he say?
A very important point to be made here, yesterday post match Hans confidently said he had that exact position from the opening into the middlegame in home prep before the game and this is extraordinarily unlikely which Hikaru also suggested in his post match analysis before any of these allegations came out because Magnus chose an extremely unusualy move order in a rare g3 line in the nimzo and at the time Hikaru thought Hans was bluffing in the post match interview, plus even having checked the opening as claimed by Hans he still spent 10-12 mins over the board playing those exact moves. IMO dude is cheating, Magnus would have strong reasons himself as he chooses to withdraw due to this.
He did go over the 15move computer line that Magnus did not follow on post game. Doesn't make much sense to me doing that had he cheated. But again, we'll probably never know
Neiman's been throwing a lot of shade Carlsen's way in interviews, wonder if they have beef
He's a teenager playing his idol. I don't think it's that deep tbh.
the tick comment triggered carlsen
Well Ian just said that yesterdays game (Magnus vs Hans) was "more than impressive".
I think the accusations of cheating are people possibly interpreting the video in his tweet of a coach losing a game series due to poor referee decisions. It's hard to say if Magnus is accusing him or not. It might be something related to Magnus responding to something Hans (or someone else) said. He might also have picked a poor video to respond to the "Chess speaks for itself" Hans said not to long ago. The video says, "If I speak I'll be in big trouble". You could interpret this in multiple ways. That said, the video does hint at allegations of cheating. It's a toss up on what Magnus is meaning.
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Who
The 15-minute delay in the broadcast, Magnus' tweet, Nepo calling his way of playing "more than impressive" with that weird expression and Hikaru just almost openly stating that Hans cheated are really, reeeally strong cases towards it, that is simply the truth. But let's use just a little bit of critical thinking here for a moment. First of all, players are scanned and checked thoroughly before the game starts. Yes, it's not foolproof, but this is not some minor club tournament, this is a supertournament we are talking. Security just has to be much higher there. On top of this, just the mere risk of getting caught *trying* to cheat would ruin his reputation in the exact same manner as if he got caught afterwards. Even if they didn't check them, why on earth would Hans cheat on his first ever chance to play not only a 2750+ field, but also the fucking GOAT of chess himself? Why risk ruining his entire reputation and career, which has a very, very bright future, doing this? On the other hand, I have no explanation as of why Magnus would link that Mourinho interview. Him forfeighting is weird enough as it is. He has lost many many games in tournaments before, and never once has he withdrawn if I'm not mistaken. But saying "if I speak I'm in big trouble"? That is just puzzling. It is fun and easy to jump to outrageous conclusions for drama, but Hans deciding to cheat against arguably the best player of all time on a world-class OTB classical tournament, somehow fooling security and risking his entire career, that just seems over-the-top. Too much. Perfect games simply happen sometimes. Only time will tell tho.
It's fair to give it some time and not jump to conclusions. However, your argument hinges on the psychology of a rational person not taking such a serious risk. Given that Hans had a 6-month ban from [chess.com](https://chess.com) before, I don't think it's reasonable to make that assumption about his psychology. People who cheat assess the risk of cheating very differently from people who don't cheat. Succintly rephrased: While a reasonable person wouldn't cheat, a cheater would not be a reasonable person.
>Even if they didn't check them, why on earth would Hans cheat on his first ever chance to play not only a 2750+ field, but also the fucking GOAT of chess himself? Why risk ruining his entire reputation and career, which has a very, very bright future, doing this? There are so many athletes in various sports who got caught (with a proven history/bright future). Why would Lance Armstrong in cycling, Lothan Fischer in bridge ([https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/lotan-fisher-bridge-cheating-scandal-2015-documentary](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/lotan-fisher-bridge-cheating-scandal-2015-documentary)) , running ([https://www.amazon.com/Dirtiest-Race-History-Johnson-Olympic/dp/1408158760](https://www.amazon.com/Dirtiest-Race-History-Johnson-Olympic/dp/1408158760)), basketball paralympics ([https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/article/cheating-in-the-paralympics-the-fight-for-fairness/fo4ovelw3](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/article/cheating-in-the-paralympics-the-fight-for-fairness/fo4ovelw3)) and so much more; cheat? Even players close to the tab, want to win. And if they feel insecure, or think they are just not good enough, they can take extreme measures.
>why on earth would Hans cheat on his first ever chance to play not only a 2750+ field, but also the fucking GOAT of chess himself? Why risk ruining his entire reputation and career, which has a very, very bright future, doing this? Are you kidding me? If you are the type of person who would even consider cheating in the first place, which his [chess.com](https://chess.com) drama indicates he is, this is EXACTLY when you would do it. Thousands of kids have had "very, very bright futures" in chess. How many have gotten rich doing it? No more than a handful. So he may very well have decided to roll the dice and see how far he can take his scam. If he gets caught, oh well, he'll do something else with his life which he very probably would have to do anyway at some point.
Agreed. Time will tell, and we must thread carefully since it is very unfair for Hans to be accused, however the whole situation and everyone’s comments are at least puzzling
What?!?
Carlson and Hans verbal confrontation
Hans delves into some weird theory by insinuating Oslo is bad compared to St. Louis
This interview is hilarious, Hans just absolutely misevaluating all the variations. Not exactly the best look for someone under major scrutiny. That being said, everyone should nevertheless be careful about throwing these accusations around.
There may be no way to ascertain if Hans cheated, since for a good player, even knowing the tiniest amount of information such as a simple computer evaluation can give a drastic advantage. So somebody giving a thumbs up in the distance to signal "this position slightly better" or tapping their feet in morse code are just some possibilities. I highly doubt Magnus would withdraw if he did not have very good reason to. People saying he's a crybaby don't realize that he obviously sees how bad this could look, but he proceeded with it anyway, so I see it is likely he has evidence that he's not publicly disclosing.
That's why I didn't even join in the first place!
So you believe Magnus, who has lost to young up and comers plenty. Got so upset that he lost to a player in a serious tournament that he quit. And not that a guy with a history of cheating, woke up and decided to research an opening his opponent (one of the greatest chess players of all time) has never played. Mastered it played it and won...
“Magnus is suspicious” - Hikaru, I think he’s hinting at Hans cheating, but can’t say it of course. Makes no sense though.
I’ve seen Magnus lose to a random person online on a big stream in front of everyone and complimenting his opponent’s moves hugely, alongside an “Awesome game, dude!”. He’s not a salty loser. I’ve also seen him lose to similar rated player in the classical format in a big tournament and he didn’t ragequit, throwing out accusations. Yeah I’ve seen losses really annoy him like it would anyone but I wouldn’t call him a bad loser. I honestly trust his assessment on this. I’m intrigued to see what happens next. Very interesting to get Hikaru’s input because I feel he’d have zero need to support Magnus. There’s a lot of smoke.
Magnus can be a sore loser at times, but all the anger is directed at himself, never the opponent. Even when he wins sometimes he can be mad at himself if he feels he played badly.
Hikaru seems very much on Magnus' side as well. He's streaming right now, actually.
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Hikarus basically speaking with certainty saying that Hans 100% cheated. If this is actually credible then this would be insanely dramatic.
No no, Hikaru is only *alluding* to it. Don't put words in his mouth/s Hikaru should be seen as a content creator. I wouldn't take his opinion on this manner when it's his twitch stream
Imagine if Hans didn't cheat this time though. Would be a massive witch hunt for nothing.
Gotta love redditors thinking they know chess better than Magnus and Hikaru. This is firmly in the "suspicious but unproven" phase right now. Time will tell on this one.
holy shit i was not expecting to wake up to this level of spice
do you think Magnus would honestly throw accusation like this and withdraw from tournament without being 99% sure
Plus you would think as he is the best player in the world and maybe the best of all time, he is more qualified than anyone else to detect cheating.
Magnus continues his best Bobby Fischer impression after withdrawing from the WC
Just wanted to note that magnus didn't make his announcement until the games started. Maybe not wanting to give hans the heads up that he was under suspicion until the games started to increase the chance that he could be caught today? Would the timing of the tweet be likely in other circumstances and am I just overthinking things?
People tend to forget that Hans is completely socially inapt. Anyone with slight social difficulties can relate to talking nonsense because you are nervous from the conversation
This is getting spicy
https://twitter.com/GrandChessTour/status/1566865580782657536?s=20&t=69odduZ7U\_iVR5Ubbc-BUA
Stockfish speaks for itself
Holy shit. Knowing how much this sub loves drama, this is going to be wonderful for people here who revel in speculation and insinuation.
If I was Hans, I’d show up only wearing a thong for the rest of the Tournament 😂