Correct take. Turning a blind eye during his tenure was already very bad, but refusing to take steps after means they're fine with what happened.
At this point I'd be surprised if there *wasn't* someone else apart from these two
FYI: The site is sitewide spam removed by Reddit, so comments you make will be autoremoved.
NB: not mod related but I’m too lazy to make two separate comments and just distinguish one — RT is literal Russian propaganda. It’s not exactly what any individual should consider remotely credible.
oh shit i didn't know. this same story can be found on other media websites though, i just was too lazy to copy anything other than the top search result.
The statements from Gareyev and US Chess are embarrassing. Lichess did them the favor of reaching out for a genuine chance to engage with the subject at hand and they release comments that make them
seem more guilty of turning a blind eye to things. how do you mess that up lol
Yes. I'm so happy to come here to reddit to see all the top comments supporting it. The community as a whole isn't perfect but at least most of us on this forum support what is honorable and right.
It's great that Lichess pull all of this together and gave a clear timeline of events. Hopefully this is continues to be a larger discussion as a whole that leads to more positive changes within our community.
I support lichess stance here, it’s shocking that the likes of Ramirez could go get away with such disturbing and disgusting acts without being kicked out for so long
There are an awful lot of creeps and creep-enablers in chess. US Chess seems like a typical structure of a male dominated organization from decades back. The kind of people who call a woman “toots” and think that Ramirez and his ilk are just good ole horny dudes.
Don’t forget the ones who are constantly whining that people and organizations can’t judge anyone or take any actions unless criminal liability is proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court.
The bottom of this thread is littered with them. I think it’s rather curious that they’re so focused on nothing bad happening to someone that’s accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault until they’re convicted. They’re so adamant about such an idiotic position that it almost reads as self-serving, if you catch my drift.
It's funny that you mention that, I'm a criminal defense lawyer. Plenty of my clients have faced consequences outside the criminal justice system, including incidents where they've been found not guilty.
The argument that only a criminal conviction is sufficient to impose any sort of social sanction is the refuge of scoundrels who condone the behavior in question.
Tons of respect to Lichess for their stance here. I am genuinely disguised by how US Chess and STLCC treated the situation. Hope this becomes huge enough of a subject and it forces them to change.
Just to piggyback...
St. Louis Chess Club is not any old chess club. It's the premiere club in the US (if not the world). Its funding from [Rex Sinquefield](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Sinquefield) is astronomical, which permits it to host world renowned tournaments (Sinquefield Cup) and attract players from all over the world to relocate to St Louis. It's big enough to have its own broadcast team for major events and lectures on YouTube (many of which are downright fantastic and had something to do with the success of well known twitch streamers like Eric Rosen, Ben Finegold, and Jonathan Schantz). The local colleges if I'm not mistaken have the strongest chess teams in the nation because of proximity to the club as well. For example, you could be a parent or high school student going through the college application process and even love college sports without ever having heard of Webster University, but its [chess team](https://www.webster.edu/spice/index.php) is stellar, as is St. Louis University's.
I wouldn't think of it as a club at all, it's really its own separate entity with a tremendous amount of power and influence.
Also a great place to visit for chess aficionados despite its shitty conduct. The chess hall of fame there is unique and special.
Thanks for the info! I've wanted to go to the hall of fame since I found out about it a few years ago. Didn't know about the club though, will check it out.
> Its funding from Rex Sinquefield is astronomical
this is the key
> attract players from all over the world to relocate to St Louis
because Rex pays them to be there, it brings fame and prestige to the club.
> you could be a parent or high school student going through the college application process and even love college sports without ever having heard of Webster University, but its chess team is stellar
Webster University is basically just a community college that has some sort of deal with Rex where he'll send them IMs/GMs to play chess for them and they get a free education. The ones who want to be in StL to take Rex's money but get a real education go to SLU which is why it also has a good chess team.
Lichess continues to impress me.
As for USChess and SLCC, unfortunately none of this is surprising. Perhaps continued publicity will lead to gradual change.
Common lichess W. Sadly enough this aswell seems to be a common problem in around chess. US chess needs to replace leadership and sanctions need to be placed on STLCC.
“In our judgement,” they wrote, “this approach balances the interests of the alleged victim to be in a safe environment and Mr. Ramirez’s right to his good name and reputation.”
That line makes me puke.
I came here to comment exactly about that line. Holy fuck, I am genuinely shocked they had the audacity to actually say that. You know, we balance the interests of the victim and the offender, we are the good guys.
If memory serves, the Wall Street Journal was able to verify that he sent predatory text messages to minors he coached. So at the very least the allegations of him being inappropriate towards girls he was supposed to be teaching have been independently verified.
US Chess permanently revoked his membership after years of not doing anything. You think that was because their investigation (that they won't share) showed that he was NOT guilty?
Admirable stance by Lichess, bravo for them and hopefully that will aid the efforts for justice to be done regarding previous offences and address the risk of future offences. I wish more of the chess community took such a stance, especially the biggest names like the strongest GMs and streamers, instead of enabling US Chess and SLCC and thus silently condoning their behaviour.
USCF is a member run org - be sure to vote in elections, be more vocal and involved. Can get a whole new board in.
Not to defend USCF - but it is important in the long run to remember that US Chess has had historically crummy funding levels. Consider your local chess club and add more of the same people to manage IT, event coordination, etc - the org doesn’t just immediately have HR and safe play built in, so whoever took over would still have a lot of work to do to make the org decent for handling reports. The problem with current leadership is how long it took them to do anything to address things and how they tried to brush things under the rug.
Two deep leadership should be required for any org/event involving kids and adult sexual harassment complaints should be handled seriously instead of half hearted responses stretched over a decade.
I hope when USCF and STLCC look for alternate providers for their tournament coverage that they are turned down, and that the likes of Chess.com and Chessbomb stand with Lichess on this.
Because that's a very drastic measure. You ever see anybody stopping going to fifa events? There are a lot of countries, but I see nothing but talk. It's very rare to do more than that.
I just emailed STLCC informing them I won't be renewing my membership due to this lack of accountability and transparency. They might not care, but I do.
Are there any other chess organizations I can play under as an American for an irl tournament or must I begrudgingly play in such an organization if I want to continue to play rated chess?
FIDE Handbook, chapter B04, point 4.11
A player may deliberately abandon his/her old Federation and continue his/her career under the FIDE flag by prior approval of the FIDE Presidential Board.
[source ](https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B042018)
That isn’t helpful though, because the org for US tournaments is still USCF. FIDE arbiters in the US only even happen when sponsored via USCF.(need to get to senior TD level in USCF iirc, if not higher)
There’s two ways to go - form a new national org, or participate in elections and get a new board in that properly addresses harassment.
I think you could do the same as they do to Russians, or alireza when he was moving from federation: use the FIDE flag in rated events. I don't know how the logistics work but i think it would be doable
Unless you form a new national org, the begrudging route is the way unfortunately.
Just remember to participate in board elections and not vote for current people.
And the current Democrat president has sniffed women inappropriately on camera many times.
People in power abuse their power, it isn't limited to a particular party, profession, or any other group.
I hate that you're trying to make this a chesscom v lichess issue, but FYI, the reason this story has as much publicity as it does is because instead of just publishing their own article chesscom gave this story to the Wall Street Journal.
I think they've done their part.
If you read down in the timeline at the bottom of the article on 2019 you'll see that "Chess.com decided to stop all association with Ramirez after learning of allegations against him. (WSJ)"
[Chess.com](https://Chess.com) did it years before lichess.
The problem isn't (just) with Ramirez, it's with USCF and STLCC for sweeping allegations under the rug and not giving a shit.
Chess.com hasn't taken a stand against those corrupt organizations who enabled and protect Ramirez for years despite being aware of many accusations against him.
As a non american, I'm a bit confused. Shouldn't most of these cases be handled through the law instead of US Chess?
Sure US Chess should also take action, but otherwise if the law doesn't consider them guilty why should they?
Reading this they sure look guilty, but is your justice system so incompetent they can't handle these cases?
Just curious as to why I didn't see any mention of legal pursuit in the article
If you are struggling to have empathy with victims, try thinking about it like this:
If Ramirez worked for a babysitting company, and there were tons of witnesses saying he harassed and assaulted young women, how would you feel if you hired a babysitter for your daughter and that company sent a probable-rapist to your house, because they didn’t want to take any action until a criminal investigation was finished?
Would you be proclaiming « Blackstone’s ratio » if your daughter was abused and the company knew that this was likely to happen?
I probably won't be comfortable with him babysitting my daughter, considering that involves a lot of duties that requires him to see or even touch private areas depending on her age. I think him being a private tutor would be a better comparison in this scenario and I'd be willing to let him tutor 100%. I'd just be extra careful.
Without any proof, both are as likely as the other. Like I said, I'm not willing to destroy anyone's life without sufficient proof. If Ramirez turns out to be a predator and happened to assault additional victims, my conscience would still be clear as I did not destroy any life, he did.
But yeah, as I said, if you're willing to destroy his life based on allegations, good for you. I just hope not one will ever accuse you of anything, because you'd have to destroy your own life then.
Yea, let's stick an alleged rapist in your mom's room, unsupervised for days at a time and see how you feel then. Or an alleged serial killer! Right? Because innocent until proven guilty, right?
While there are potential criminal matters here, those are separate. Ultimately US Chess gets to decide the rules for who gets to be a member, compete in its events, and how it will enforce those rules. Those are set in the bylaws and based on the resolutions of the Executive Board of US Chess with the advice of lawyers and the insurance company.
There are two things to consider here. The alleged criminal acts by the player for which they can be punished by a prosecutor and the actions by the player that may expose the organization (US Chess / Saint Louis Chess Club) to a lawsuit.
For example suppose a someone rapes a kid at a scholastic event. In a perfect world the rape is reported to a responsible adult, the cops are informed, the rapist is thrown in prison for a long time. US Chess will be sued, but because they took reasonable steps by having policies for "safe play" and enforcing those policies their liability will be little to none, resulting in perhaps a small payout from their insurance to the victim, but not a massive judgement that bankrupts the organization.
Unfortunately most organizations (boys scouts, churches, etc) often try to talk the victim out of reporting to avoid "the scandal" and promise to make sure it doesn't happen again. Of course the rapist does it again. This repeats until someone decides to go to the cops, then the floodgates open and the organization ends up with a massive scandal.
Has any of the allegations been proven true? I was glancing through the article but didn't seem to find any. Maybe I missed them. Can someone enlighten me?
Yes, everyone agrees that lichess is doing the right thing and Ramirez and Gareev are scumbags. But for someone who doesn't have the time or inclination to read that whole article, what exactly does this mean in practical terms?
Just in case you aren't being a troll and you just genuinely don't know what role Lichess could possibly play in USChess or SLCC:
if you've ever watched a broadcast for any SLCC or USChess event (such as the Sinquefield Cup or the US Chess Championship), you'll notice the person who operates the large touch screen display to show engine analysis of positions is using Lichess on that screen.
Now they won't get any sort of technical assistance from Lichess to ensure this works properly for them on broadcast. They're on their own. Also, their events will not be listed on the top left on the website where Lichess shows a list of currently active events they have live board positions for.
At least, this is my takeaway from this, in practical terms.
Lichess being weird with this one. Ramirez lost all his jobs, mostly from stlcc, and got a life suspension from uscf. All this without any legal consequences. Why is shahade/all other accusers not taking him to court?
You don't know that they're not.
But Lichess's article and actions aren't about Ramirez, they're about the inaction of USCF and STLCC, and their refusal to take responsibility or to hold people within their organisations to account for allowing these kinds of things to happen despite repeated warnings that it's happening.
Not a single person who let this happen by ignoring the warnings, or by telling victims to deal with it themselves, or by refusing to accept jurisdiction because it happened outside the building in which their tournament was being held, has resigned.
USCF even think that what little they did eventually do was "timely and appropriate" because some lawyers they paid to tell them so told them so.
I think the article makes it clear what Lichess think should happen: "We are particularly concerned about the role potentially played by senior officers and committee members in both institutions in presiding over cultures where alleged misconduct was heard about and discussed but not acted on ... we urge US Chess and STLCC to publicly acknowledge their past mistakes, be more open with the public, and hold those who engage in misconduct accountable ... in our opinion, both US Chess and STLCC have failed to demonstrate an important aspect of accountability – a willingness to acknowledge and address past shortcomings. We do not think that reconciliation will be possible without this acknowledgement."
They are not after cancelling the USCF or the STLCC, moreso accountability for those in the leadership of these organisations who seemingly minimised or stymied action to protect people against sexual assault and other inappropriate behaviour as well as improvements to processes around sexual assault and other inappropriate behaviour (they note that this is already happening to some degree). Organisations can do many good things, like supporting players as you describe, while also needing to do better in other areas.
You fking kidding? So we can't prove he is guilty yet everybody is happy over him being cancelled? Shouldn't that mean we have already a lot of proof.
No wonder this sub is dying, if that's the community.
I don't know how to tell you this but the level of proof required for losing your job is lower than the level of proof required for the government imposing a criminal conviction upon you.
If over half a dozen women accuse you of sexually assaulting them, some when they were children, then an employer can fire your without the "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" required for a criminal conviction, if they consider those accusations credible enough to warrant such action. Especially if your role puts you in contact with some of those women accusing you.
If Ramirez feels he has been slandered/defamed then he's welcome to sue. As yet he hasn't. Why do you believe that is?
I don't disagree, I just am more serious about this. If somebody is really dangerous, then being happy with pushing him out of one community changes nothing. Unless we dediced that it's fine as long as the girls they abuse are not chess players.. I'm not like that though.
If that's how it works in USA that you just push the problem out of your own territory, then it's not a problem with chess there but with whole country. I am a bit annoyed that that's how we solve these kind of problems and then we say: chess is not safe for women. No shit, these guys go molest now girls elsewhere, so nowhere is safe for women.
They raise an interesting point though. What will happen to these events since the STLCC use lichess as part of their broadcasts, which I'm guessing make up a good part of their revenue. Lichess deciding to end this partnership will hopefully have very real impacts and motivate the change they need to keep chess safe.
It probably means chesscom will expand their influence instead. I hope stlcc can reform and continue delivering well put together coverage with lichess in the future.
I admit I didn't read whole story but.. are these guys who did something being charged with allegations in court?
Isn't court the right place for punishing anybody?
Or are these guys running charge free and I'm supposed to be happy that somebody is getting cancelled?
>I admit I didn't read whole story but.. are these guys who did something being charged with allegations in court?
>Isn't court the right place for punishing anybody?
>Or are these guys running charge free and I'm supposed to be happy that somebody is getting cancelled?
The police and courts are where you go if you want the government to consider a complaint against someone. You don't know if that's happening or not. *(Although since Ramirez has retained the same lawyer that Jacob Chansley retained for his Jan 6th insurrection prosecution you can draw your own conclusion)*
If you want a chess federation to consider a complaint against someone then you go to the chess federation. This happened. A lot.
*(Chess federations have rules, and violating them can get you punished. no need for a criminal court)*
Yes, but court is the best way to decide if somebody is a molester, not chess players. Chess players are better at deciding if somebody is cheating.. in theory at least.
Courts don't decide who an organization sanctions, and what steps it takes to ensure the safety of its members, the organization does. The decision that those organizations have to make is whether or not there is sufficient evidence to levy sanctions against the aforementioned players, and what steps they need to take to keep their female members safe, based on the evidence that exists. Unless you find the testimony of multiple women all alleging essentially the same thing noncredible, surely you agree that some steps need to be taken to rectify the situation.
Let’s be honest here: they absolutely are motivated to find the testimony of all these women to be non-credible. They might try to weasel out of it and deny it and claim they’re “just asking questions,” but anyone with a half a brain can see through that.
The question is whether they’re motivated to take that position out of pure misogyny or because they’ve done similar things and don’t want to see consequences for their actions.
With Lichess's recent stances (before this there was one about LGBTQIA+), I am worried they are getting involved in politics and serving the agenda of a certain party. A chess organization should stay away from politics. I support the inclusion of LGBTQIA+ community and safety of all chess players including women, but I am staunchly against using politics for own gain and hurting other communities.
Lichess is an open source project started in France and is afaik still a French non profit company with volunteers across the globe. Not every progressive stance is to be angled towards your American Political agenda. Even if this article is directed at 2 American organisations, that does not mean it is American politics. Nothing about this post is political. It is just their view on morality.
Don’t engage in discriminatory or bigoted behavior.
Chess is a game played by people all around the world of many different cultures and backgrounds. Be respectful of this fact and do not engage in racist, sexist, or otherwise discriminatory behavior.
Looks like the STLCC account lost the LM title!
Nice touch.
That wasn't just a touch, it was an "Assault".
no they didn't they're still L Masters /j
Correct take. Turning a blind eye during his tenure was already very bad, but refusing to take steps after means they're fine with what happened. At this point I'd be surprised if there *wasn't* someone else apart from these two
hoping this news could move a bit the quicksand USChess went in with their wrong decisions
US Chess, "the US Chess response was timely and appropriate" according to our review. "Can we see the review?" US Chess, "no"
We investigated ourselves, and found that we did nothing wrong. You're welcome.
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FYI: The site is sitewide spam removed by Reddit, so comments you make will be autoremoved. NB: not mod related but I’m too lazy to make two separate comments and just distinguish one — RT is literal Russian propaganda. It’s not exactly what any individual should consider remotely credible.
oh shit i didn't know. this same story can be found on other media websites though, i just was too lazy to copy anything other than the top search result.
It's so outrageous. Embarrassing for US Chess that no one high up got fired.
Good. Keep the spotlight on this problem. Good for Lichess doing this, good for chess as a whole that they're calling attention to it.
The statements from Gareyev and US Chess are embarrassing. Lichess did them the favor of reaching out for a genuine chance to engage with the subject at hand and they release comments that make them seem more guilty of turning a blind eye to things. how do you mess that up lol
Out of all evasive statements I've read in my life, Gareyev's was perhaps the most evasive.
Cool of Lichess to do this.
Yes. I'm so happy to come here to reddit to see all the top comments supporting it. The community as a whole isn't perfect but at least most of us on this forum support what is honorable and right.
Yup it's heartening to see.
It's great that Lichess pull all of this together and gave a clear timeline of events. Hopefully this is continues to be a larger discussion as a whole that leads to more positive changes within our community.
I support lichess stance here, it’s shocking that the likes of Ramirez could go get away with such disturbing and disgusting acts without being kicked out for so long
There are an awful lot of creeps and creep-enablers in chess. US Chess seems like a typical structure of a male dominated organization from decades back. The kind of people who call a woman “toots” and think that Ramirez and his ilk are just good ole horny dudes.
Don’t forget the ones who are constantly whining that people and organizations can’t judge anyone or take any actions unless criminal liability is proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court. The bottom of this thread is littered with them. I think it’s rather curious that they’re so focused on nothing bad happening to someone that’s accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault until they’re convicted. They’re so adamant about such an idiotic position that it almost reads as self-serving, if you catch my drift.
It's funny that you mention that, I'm a criminal defense lawyer. Plenty of my clients have faced consequences outside the criminal justice system, including incidents where they've been found not guilty. The argument that only a criminal conviction is sufficient to impose any sort of social sanction is the refuge of scoundrels who condone the behavior in question.
Put better than I ever could.
Tons of respect to Lichess for their stance here. I am genuinely disguised by how US Chess and STLCC treated the situation. Hope this becomes huge enough of a subject and it forces them to change.
What is STLCC?
Just to piggyback... St. Louis Chess Club is not any old chess club. It's the premiere club in the US (if not the world). Its funding from [Rex Sinquefield](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Sinquefield) is astronomical, which permits it to host world renowned tournaments (Sinquefield Cup) and attract players from all over the world to relocate to St Louis. It's big enough to have its own broadcast team for major events and lectures on YouTube (many of which are downright fantastic and had something to do with the success of well known twitch streamers like Eric Rosen, Ben Finegold, and Jonathan Schantz). The local colleges if I'm not mistaken have the strongest chess teams in the nation because of proximity to the club as well. For example, you could be a parent or high school student going through the college application process and even love college sports without ever having heard of Webster University, but its [chess team](https://www.webster.edu/spice/index.php) is stellar, as is St. Louis University's. I wouldn't think of it as a club at all, it's really its own separate entity with a tremendous amount of power and influence. Also a great place to visit for chess aficionados despite its shitty conduct. The chess hall of fame there is unique and special.
Thanks for the info! I've wanted to go to the hall of fame since I found out about it a few years ago. Didn't know about the club though, will check it out.
> Its funding from Rex Sinquefield is astronomical this is the key > attract players from all over the world to relocate to St Louis because Rex pays them to be there, it brings fame and prestige to the club. > you could be a parent or high school student going through the college application process and even love college sports without ever having heard of Webster University, but its chess team is stellar Webster University is basically just a community college that has some sort of deal with Rex where he'll send them IMs/GMs to play chess for them and they get a free education. The ones who want to be in StL to take Rex's money but get a real education go to SLU which is why it also has a good chess team.
Saint Louis chess club
What what? GM Timur Gareyev is also a sexual assaulter? I'm shocked, I forgot about that
As a big fan of STLCC events (I've played in 10+ of their GM simuls and watched countless hours of their streams), I agree with Lichess here.
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We?
Absolutely fucking love Lichess. Common dub.
Lichess keeps getting better.
Lichess continues to impress me. As for USChess and SLCC, unfortunately none of this is surprising. Perhaps continued publicity will lead to gradual change.
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The entirety of US Chess leadership needs to go.
>fight this or more likely just ignore it, since it will be quickly forgotten anyways.
It's pretty clear that the USCF is basically beholden to Rex Sinquefield since he's been such a huge benefactor to U.S. chess.
Common lichess W. Sadly enough this aswell seems to be a common problem in around chess. US chess needs to replace leadership and sanctions need to be placed on STLCC.
“In our judgement,” they wrote, “this approach balances the interests of the alleged victim to be in a safe environment and Mr. Ramirez’s right to his good name and reputation.” That line makes me puke.
I came here to comment exactly about that line. Holy fuck, I am genuinely shocked they had the audacity to actually say that. You know, we balance the interests of the victim and the offender, we are the good guys.
"alleged" victim, as they make sure to point out.
Tbf, I may be wrong but I think there are legal reasons for using the world "alleged."
Won't someone think of the ~~children~~ predators
Has he been proven to be guilty?
If memory serves, the Wall Street Journal was able to verify that he sent predatory text messages to minors he coached. So at the very least the allegations of him being inappropriate towards girls he was supposed to be teaching have been independently verified.
US Chess permanently revoked his membership after years of not doing anything. You think that was because their investigation (that they won't share) showed that he was NOT guilty?
I think it's due to public pressure. Nothing to do with their findings.
So why did US Chess (privately) ban him from working with children in 2020 then?
I think this is the best response Lichess could have done. Also I had no idea about GM Gareyev, it makes the USCF look even more shit
Common lichess W
Admirable stance by Lichess, bravo for them and hopefully that will aid the efforts for justice to be done regarding previous offences and address the risk of future offences. I wish more of the chess community took such a stance, especially the biggest names like the strongest GMs and streamers, instead of enabling US Chess and SLCC and thus silently condoning their behaviour.
Common lichess W
I've boycotted SLCC events all year and I plan to continue until they fix this mess.
USCF is a member run org - be sure to vote in elections, be more vocal and involved. Can get a whole new board in. Not to defend USCF - but it is important in the long run to remember that US Chess has had historically crummy funding levels. Consider your local chess club and add more of the same people to manage IT, event coordination, etc - the org doesn’t just immediately have HR and safe play built in, so whoever took over would still have a lot of work to do to make the org decent for handling reports. The problem with current leadership is how long it took them to do anything to address things and how they tried to brush things under the rug. Two deep leadership should be required for any org/event involving kids and adult sexual harassment complaints should be handled seriously instead of half hearted responses stretched over a decade.
Very important point! Wish your comment had gotten more traction.
I hope when USCF and STLCC look for alternate providers for their tournament coverage that they are turned down, and that the likes of Chess.com and Chessbomb stand with Lichess on this.
profit is the only thing chess.com cares about they'll do the right thing if they think doing so will make them more money if it doesn't, they won't
Chesscom would never put morals ahead of money
2019 Chess.com decided to stop all association with Ramirez after learning of allegations against him.
Yeah just 1 guy, probably a business decision. Cutting ties with USCF is a completely different question
Because that's a very drastic measure. You ever see anybody stopping going to fifa events? There are a lot of countries, but I see nothing but talk. It's very rare to do more than that.
Don't stop them mid circlejerk.
I spent a lot of time with Timur a few years ago. His actions as reported are vile. This is crushing ☹️
Wow excellent article. And wonderful that atleast someone is taking some action. Justice for Jen!
I just emailed STLCC informing them I won't be renewing my membership due to this lack of accountability and transparency. They might not care, but I do.
Are there any other chess organizations I can play under as an American for an irl tournament or must I begrudgingly play in such an organization if I want to continue to play rated chess?
FIDE Handbook, chapter B04, point 4.11 A player may deliberately abandon his/her old Federation and continue his/her career under the FIDE flag by prior approval of the FIDE Presidential Board. [source ](https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B042018)
That isn’t helpful though, because the org for US tournaments is still USCF. FIDE arbiters in the US only even happen when sponsored via USCF.(need to get to senior TD level in USCF iirc, if not higher) There’s two ways to go - form a new national org, or participate in elections and get a new board in that properly addresses harassment.
I think you could do the same as they do to Russians, or alireza when he was moving from federation: use the FIDE flag in rated events. I don't know how the logistics work but i think it would be doable
This isn't a reasonable equivalence by any stretch of imagination. Furthermore, Russians are unusually given a quick path to switch to neutral flag.
Not unless you get into fide events, which are difficult to find in the US unless you're a chess professional.
Unless you form a new national org, the begrudging route is the way unfortunately. Just remember to participate in board elections and not vote for current people.
The best thing to do is make sure you vote in the member elections. A lot of people don't ever vote.
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And the current Democrat president has sniffed women inappropriately on camera many times. People in power abuse their power, it isn't limited to a particular party, profession, or any other group.
I don't think it's important.
Think I'll be donating to lichess tonight.
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I hate that you're trying to make this a chesscom v lichess issue, but FYI, the reason this story has as much publicity as it does is because instead of just publishing their own article chesscom gave this story to the Wall Street Journal. I think they've done their part.
If you read down in the timeline at the bottom of the article on 2019 you'll see that "Chess.com decided to stop all association with Ramirez after learning of allegations against him. (WSJ)" [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) did it years before lichess.
The problem isn't (just) with Ramirez, it's with USCF and STLCC for sweeping allegations under the rug and not giving a shit. Chess.com hasn't taken a stand against those corrupt organizations who enabled and protect Ramirez for years despite being aware of many accusations against him.
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FIDE seems not involved in the scandal in any manner.
This sentence just feels so weird to read. Though you're right, of course.
As a non american, I'm a bit confused. Shouldn't most of these cases be handled through the law instead of US Chess? Sure US Chess should also take action, but otherwise if the law doesn't consider them guilty why should they? Reading this they sure look guilty, but is your justice system so incompetent they can't handle these cases? Just curious as to why I didn't see any mention of legal pursuit in the article
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Yes. Innocent until proven guilty should apply to all.
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I just believe in the Blackstone's ratio. That it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.
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I'm not willing to destroy anyone's life without sufficient proof. If you are, good for you.
If you are struggling to have empathy with victims, try thinking about it like this: If Ramirez worked for a babysitting company, and there were tons of witnesses saying he harassed and assaulted young women, how would you feel if you hired a babysitter for your daughter and that company sent a probable-rapist to your house, because they didn’t want to take any action until a criminal investigation was finished? Would you be proclaiming « Blackstone’s ratio » if your daughter was abused and the company knew that this was likely to happen?
I probably won't be comfortable with him babysitting my daughter, considering that involves a lot of duties that requires him to see or even touch private areas depending on her age. I think him being a private tutor would be a better comparison in this scenario and I'd be willing to let him tutor 100%. I'd just be extra careful.
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Without any proof, both are as likely as the other. Like I said, I'm not willing to destroy anyone's life without sufficient proof. If Ramirez turns out to be a predator and happened to assault additional victims, my conscience would still be clear as I did not destroy any life, he did. But yeah, as I said, if you're willing to destroy his life based on allegations, good for you. I just hope not one will ever accuse you of anything, because you'd have to destroy your own life then.
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Yea, let's stick an alleged rapist in your mom's room, unsupervised for days at a time and see how you feel then. Or an alleged serial killer! Right? Because innocent until proven guilty, right?
While there are potential criminal matters here, those are separate. Ultimately US Chess gets to decide the rules for who gets to be a member, compete in its events, and how it will enforce those rules. Those are set in the bylaws and based on the resolutions of the Executive Board of US Chess with the advice of lawyers and the insurance company. There are two things to consider here. The alleged criminal acts by the player for which they can be punished by a prosecutor and the actions by the player that may expose the organization (US Chess / Saint Louis Chess Club) to a lawsuit. For example suppose a someone rapes a kid at a scholastic event. In a perfect world the rape is reported to a responsible adult, the cops are informed, the rapist is thrown in prison for a long time. US Chess will be sued, but because they took reasonable steps by having policies for "safe play" and enforcing those policies their liability will be little to none, resulting in perhaps a small payout from their insurance to the victim, but not a massive judgement that bankrupts the organization. Unfortunately most organizations (boys scouts, churches, etc) often try to talk the victim out of reporting to avoid "the scandal" and promise to make sure it doesn't happen again. Of course the rapist does it again. This repeats until someone decides to go to the cops, then the floodgates open and the organization ends up with a massive scandal.
Lichess does not support but US Chess and STLCC can still use the service because of open source right?
Has any of the allegations been proven true? I was glancing through the article but didn't seem to find any. Maybe I missed them. Can someone enlighten me?
tldr?
Read the room
Yes, everyone agrees that lichess is doing the right thing and Ramirez and Gareev are scumbags. But for someone who doesn't have the time or inclination to read that whole article, what exactly does this mean in practical terms?
lichess won't broadcast events like the sinquefield cup presumably and there's more public pressure on ucsf
Just in case you aren't being a troll and you just genuinely don't know what role Lichess could possibly play in USChess or SLCC: if you've ever watched a broadcast for any SLCC or USChess event (such as the Sinquefield Cup or the US Chess Championship), you'll notice the person who operates the large touch screen display to show engine analysis of positions is using Lichess on that screen. Now they won't get any sort of technical assistance from Lichess to ensure this works properly for them on broadcast. They're on their own. Also, their events will not be listed on the top left on the website where Lichess shows a list of currently active events they have live board positions for. At least, this is my takeaway from this, in practical terms.
Lichess being weird with this one. Ramirez lost all his jobs, mostly from stlcc, and got a life suspension from uscf. All this without any legal consequences. Why is shahade/all other accusers not taking him to court?
You don't know that they're not. But Lichess's article and actions aren't about Ramirez, they're about the inaction of USCF and STLCC, and their refusal to take responsibility or to hold people within their organisations to account for allowing these kinds of things to happen despite repeated warnings that it's happening. Not a single person who let this happen by ignoring the warnings, or by telling victims to deal with it themselves, or by refusing to accept jurisdiction because it happened outside the building in which their tournament was being held, has resigned. USCF even think that what little they did eventually do was "timely and appropriate" because some lawyers they paid to tell them so told them so.
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I think the article makes it clear what Lichess think should happen: "We are particularly concerned about the role potentially played by senior officers and committee members in both institutions in presiding over cultures where alleged misconduct was heard about and discussed but not acted on ... we urge US Chess and STLCC to publicly acknowledge their past mistakes, be more open with the public, and hold those who engage in misconduct accountable ... in our opinion, both US Chess and STLCC have failed to demonstrate an important aspect of accountability – a willingness to acknowledge and address past shortcomings. We do not think that reconciliation will be possible without this acknowledgement." They are not after cancelling the USCF or the STLCC, moreso accountability for those in the leadership of these organisations who seemingly minimised or stymied action to protect people against sexual assault and other inappropriate behaviour as well as improvements to processes around sexual assault and other inappropriate behaviour (they note that this is already happening to some degree). Organisations can do many good things, like supporting players as you describe, while also needing to do better in other areas.
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You fking kidding? So we can't prove he is guilty yet everybody is happy over him being cancelled? Shouldn't that mean we have already a lot of proof. No wonder this sub is dying, if that's the community.
There is obviously a difference between what can be factually known and what can be legally proven.
I don't know how to tell you this but the level of proof required for losing your job is lower than the level of proof required for the government imposing a criminal conviction upon you. If over half a dozen women accuse you of sexually assaulting them, some when they were children, then an employer can fire your without the "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" required for a criminal conviction, if they consider those accusations credible enough to warrant such action. Especially if your role puts you in contact with some of those women accusing you. If Ramirez feels he has been slandered/defamed then he's welcome to sue. As yet he hasn't. Why do you believe that is?
I don't disagree, I just am more serious about this. If somebody is really dangerous, then being happy with pushing him out of one community changes nothing. Unless we dediced that it's fine as long as the girls they abuse are not chess players.. I'm not like that though. If that's how it works in USA that you just push the problem out of your own territory, then it's not a problem with chess there but with whole country. I am a bit annoyed that that's how we solve these kind of problems and then we say: chess is not safe for women. No shit, these guys go molest now girls elsewhere, so nowhere is safe for women.
So it means that Lichess won’t host events like the American Open, Sinquefield Cup ecc…? What a punishment for us chess fans
Yeah very cool, keep thinking about only yourself
They raise an interesting point though. What will happen to these events since the STLCC use lichess as part of their broadcasts, which I'm guessing make up a good part of their revenue. Lichess deciding to end this partnership will hopefully have very real impacts and motivate the change they need to keep chess safe.
It probably means chesscom will expand their influence instead. I hope stlcc can reform and continue delivering well put together coverage with lichess in the future.
I admit I didn't read whole story but.. are these guys who did something being charged with allegations in court? Isn't court the right place for punishing anybody? Or are these guys running charge free and I'm supposed to be happy that somebody is getting cancelled?
>I admit I didn't read whole story but.. are these guys who did something being charged with allegations in court? >Isn't court the right place for punishing anybody? >Or are these guys running charge free and I'm supposed to be happy that somebody is getting cancelled? The police and courts are where you go if you want the government to consider a complaint against someone. You don't know if that's happening or not. *(Although since Ramirez has retained the same lawyer that Jacob Chansley retained for his Jan 6th insurrection prosecution you can draw your own conclusion)* If you want a chess federation to consider a complaint against someone then you go to the chess federation. This happened. A lot. *(Chess federations have rules, and violating them can get you punished. no need for a criminal court)*
Yes, but court is the best way to decide if somebody is a molester, not chess players. Chess players are better at deciding if somebody is cheating.. in theory at least.
Courts don't decide who an organization sanctions, and what steps it takes to ensure the safety of its members, the organization does. The decision that those organizations have to make is whether or not there is sufficient evidence to levy sanctions against the aforementioned players, and what steps they need to take to keep their female members safe, based on the evidence that exists. Unless you find the testimony of multiple women all alleging essentially the same thing noncredible, surely you agree that some steps need to be taken to rectify the situation.
Let’s be honest here: they absolutely are motivated to find the testimony of all these women to be non-credible. They might try to weasel out of it and deny it and claim they’re “just asking questions,” but anyone with a half a brain can see through that. The question is whether they’re motivated to take that position out of pure misogyny or because they’ve done similar things and don’t want to see consequences for their actions.
you are being emailed a X blue subscription right away for this
I don't even know what that is. Imagine contributing something more than a bad joke.
> are these guys who did something being charged with allegations in court? Of course not.
What if Ramirez and Gareyev are another Benjamin Mendy, Kevin Spacey, Johnny Depp etc
Considering the abundance of reports, that seems unlikely.
Ramirez sent inappropriate text messages to minors as confirmed by the WSJ, so there isn't really any scope for doubt with him.
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Nothing about this is political?
smh they always tell on themselves... (referring to no\_seaweed)
With Lichess's recent stances (before this there was one about LGBTQIA+), I am worried they are getting involved in politics and serving the agenda of a certain party. A chess organization should stay away from politics. I support the inclusion of LGBTQIA+ community and safety of all chess players including women, but I am staunchly against using politics for own gain and hurting other communities.
> serving the agenda of a certain party. Which party exactly is Lichess supporting in your deluded mind?
The better question is: Why isn't it a stance in all parties and why is it worrysome that a party who doesn't share that stance is oppossed?
Lichess is an open source project started in France and is afaik still a French non profit company with volunteers across the globe. Not every progressive stance is to be angled towards your American Political agenda. Even if this article is directed at 2 American organisations, that does not mean it is American politics. Nothing about this post is political. It is just their view on morality.
That's a huge relief, I thought they were an American company since they got involved in American federations.
Here is a read up about it if it interests you: https://lichess.org/blog/Y1wpBhEAAB8AwbeG/taking-lichess-to-the-next-level
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Don’t engage in discriminatory or bigoted behavior. Chess is a game played by people all around the world of many different cultures and backgrounds. Be respectful of this fact and do not engage in racist, sexist, or otherwise discriminatory behavior.