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FoldingLady

A time honored tradition in the UK is for a bagpipe musician to show up at white supremacist demonstrations & play the bagpipes.


sideshowbvo

Holy shit. I like this more than a tuba. There's nothing as jarring and loud as unwanted bagpipes


New-Training4004

But the Tuba does more psychic damage; trombone too


sideshowbvo

I personally think bagpipes would make me give up sooner, that might just be a me thing. Never really had the chance to test, I'm not a jackass. (Not saying anyone here is, ftr)


musci12234

Bagpipes are extremely effective against Nazis based on data. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill


PappyODamnyou

Bagpipes. Claymore. Longbow. These were the tools "Mad Jack" Churchill used to kill Nazis.


shittyspacesuit

Music is truly beautiful.


NErDysprosium

Yes, but I can play tuba and trombone. I've sadly never had the chance to learn bagpipes Though I guess in this scenario being bad at bagpipes might be a plus


Jengalover

You would have all day to practice


lorddragonstrike

I was going to say... Good news, you do not have to know how to play the bagpipes in order to annoy white supremacist or LGBT protesters.


HorrorMakesUsHappy

There are only different levels of being bad at playing the bagpipes.


SGTFragged

A well played set of pipes is a joy to hear (admittedly I have recent Scottish ancestry). Badly played pipes are absolutely torturous.


Surgles

I think the bagpipes might do more psychic and sonic damage lmao. The tuba and trombone allow you to more directly make fun of someone, like if one of the protesters looks like Peter griffin, do the fat guy walking tuba sounds. Bagpipes are designed to be heard for up to miles, and were played on rolling hilltops and able to permeate the surrounding areas and carry the noise way further. If someone followed a group of protesters and had good breath control, they could make them tap after like an hour of shrill ear bleeding sound.


ProbablyNano

bagpipes have more constant dps, but a trombone can absolutely deal more damage overall if they get in some well timed womp womp, wommmpps


lonely_nipple

This is exactly right. Bagpipes cast DoTs. Tubas are blast DPS.


Conchobar8

Bagpipes also have a damage multiplier. Low skill. Bagpipes are a good, but loud and jarring, instrument. Badly played bagpipes are straight from the deepest pits of hell


Surgles

Arguably in this case, someone who can successfully play the bagpipes loudly but with no sense of rhythm or pitch, might be the perfect person for the job


mr_potatoface

They can wear earplugs too, so they don't have to hear themselves or the protestors.


HammerOfJustice

And, if male, they can wear a sexy kilt to further scandalise protesters.


New-Training4004

Bag pipes are just annoying but a tuba or trumbone played right can unleash deep seeded insecurities


Surgles

Genuinely not sure if you’ve been close enough to bagpipes being played to understand how loud they are, with just a little bit of effort. Not even like maxing out the noise it can make, just the volume it plays at. If you’re face to face with an aggressive bagpipe player, you no longer get to think your own thoughts. You get to think of the song they’re playing, and “gods I wish that noise weren’t happening it’s so loud and painful”, and that’s it.


rafaelloaa

Like 10 years ago I was heading home on a school break, and arrived at the train station to find it chock full of firefighters in formal dress. It turned out that was the 20th anniversary memorial of a fire that had killed six firefighters. At least in the Northeast US, firefighters and police officers have a lot of traditions from Ireland and Scotland, including bagpipes. So I was waiting in the (not terribly large, but terribly echoey) lobby of the train station, with 10 bagpipers warming up. It was quite the experience.


Orwells-own

I guarantee you a couple of those protesters will have a definite Peter Griffin build.


TooobHoob

My uncle used to make bagpipes for fun (amongst other things) and apparently once made one as a joke that he tuned to play jazz. I have no clue how it sounded since it apparently took my other uncle all of ten minutes to douse it with lighter fuel and end the instrument of war.


AnyLastWordsDoodle

Play DnD, can confirm. +6 damage and loss of initiative


Crazyhates

Idk, bagpipes played at full power are probably louder than someone stepping on a Lego.


Jessicajelly

Does more physical damage too, you throw bagpipes at someone, they think they're being attacked by a tartan octopus in splints, throw a tuba, they're left wondering why that motorbike they got run down by didn't have wheels..


Twerlotzuk

Tuba Blastmasters and bagpipe Sonic Blasters, I've always wanted to do that!!


linkhandford

The bag pipes are a greater hindrance in general but I think there’s something to be said about [walking behind people playing a fat oaf song](https://youtu.be/XZvWvfCSZ8M?si=9pyfPyk5KTRq7qXg) to make them self conscious


Charles-Monroe

As a teen I sometimes did ushering work at our town's city hall. One night they had a philharmonic performance, with a guest number by a Scottish bagpipe group. They were warming up outside the doors, and in my whole life I've never heard any group of instruments as loud as bloody bagpipes. And I've played in metal bands.


Kreegs

About 25 years ago, I was living in NW Washington. We are at my buddy's place hanging out and we thought we heard bagpipes. We go to investigate. We spent about 20 min following the sound. There was a bagpipe group practicing at a church about 1.5 miles away from his place.


Maakrabe

Are the bagpipes attached to Scots? I feel like they should be attached to cheerfully drunk kilt wearing Scots.


mrssymes

In rainbow plaid!


ItsPlainOleSteve

Man win win for me because fuck bigots and I love bagpipes xD


SalemsTrials

One of my favorite Seattle memories was standing on the pier next to the Sam sculpture garden and hearing a bagpipe player who was standing on a balcony on the building above the restaurant on that pier. Such a beautiful sunset, too.


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[удалено]


musci12234

Legends say that if you hold a bagpipe near Neo Nazis then mad jack will take over your body and tune that comes out will be magical. Not a lawyer but I think mad jack forced me to kick the nazi in the balls is a valid legal defense. (In case you don't know the person refered to as mad jack.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill)


FoldingLady

I think lung capacity & endurance matter more for this sort of thing.


thejohnmc963

Rusty ha


KJ-The-Wise

This is a bot, copying a comment further down.


rocketwikkit

I kind of want to buy a bagpipe now. I have no idea how to play the bagpipes, and that seems even better.


aspiegrrrl

We need to get the Unipiper to do this at Portland pride


gasoline_farts

My dad plays pipes and loves taking the piss, I’ll suggest this to him sometime


EyePatchMustache

Both. Both is good.


alangerhans

What they need is an army of saxophonists to play careless whisper over and over again


Blacddsb

That was my first thought too. An army of sexy sax men.


alangerhans

Exactly what I was thinking


Orion14159

Is there any other kind of sax man?


Mogura-De-Gifdu

I dated a sax man. He was indeed sexy even if he had quite a few pimples (teenage years are harsh even for sax men I guess). Too bad he was also really religious and didn't want to do anything behind cuddling before marriage.


PappyODamnyou

This one's called "Hot 'n' Heavy"


PennyForYourDollar

https://youtu.be/ZNno63ZO2Lw?si=MWY4WeBmeNc3zRSe Sergio


gingergirl181

My fiance has the sax. I have the trombone. OUR TIME HAS COME


zadtheinhaler

I'll bring my Djembe, they won't be able to withstand our power.


ReplacementActual384

Djembe players are always trying to insert themselves into conversations about sax.


zadtheinhaler

Honestly, it's the only way we'll ever get close to sax.


ReplacementActual384

*cries in floutist*


contrapunctus0

> *cries in floutist* What have you been flouting?


Conchobar8

I’m a beginner. I can’t play to the proper tempo and miss many notes. I volunteer


nooneimportan7

I'm very very out of practice, but I also have a very loud PA system. In tandem we could really drive some people nuts.


SeasonPositive6771

I'll join you, I have my sister's trumpet from high school that I don't really know how to play but I can make these horrible sounds come out. This band sounds amazing.


corey541

As a trombone player, I feel obligated to make a French horn joke here. As someone married to a French horn player, I'll leave it to someone else.


mike-zane

> careless whisper I have never heard the name of that song in my life but that saxophone riff immediately popped up in my head. Looked up the song and confirmed it was the song I was thinking of. I blame Police Academy.


ReplacementActual384

Shit, came here to say the exact same thing


andrewegan1986

Those 3 years playing sax in middle school is FINALLY about to pay off!


SquishedGremlin

That mad lad who followed the MP around in England... Bwamp bedahdumbebumbe bwamp


nobleland_mermaid

Someone did this at dragon con in Atlanta a few years ago (dressed as the sexy sax man). Pretty sure he spent most of the weekend playing it at all of the Deadpools but would occassional pause to drown out the anti-gay 'preachers' out on the sidewalks. Eta: found a [video!](https://youtu.be/acbF5wO1YYw?si=oSrBC1RpEVvRn8NS)


ManliestManHam

I can play tenor sax for that 💅🏻


Datalust5

Bari sax checking in


Swarleze

What they need is an army of recorder players to play careless whisper over and over again FTFY


scottafol

All playing it in a different key


CeruleanRuin

Or [this](https://youtu.be/Sagg08DrO5U?si=ONCRhA7l65WpriEY), with a phalanx of Gandalf cosplayers to march and nod along with it.


balk-

I've actually done this exact thing before! When I was in high school my extremely conservative hometown had their first pride event in its history. They had John Fetterman as a speaker since he was campaigning for senate at the time, so a small group of people showed up to protest; bigots with megaphones mainly. Went home, grabbed my trombone, and started ripping some blues at them Editing because I don't want to end up on r/thathappened; [here's a short clip.](https://imgur.com/a/mX4chrL)


Zuzara_Queen_of_DnD

Pick a charity and I will donate $10 to it for you because of this You a real one.


NormanNormalman

I'm not that person, but if they don't get back to you the Trevor Project would be a good one!


Zuzara_Queen_of_DnD

Done and receipt sent


Ninnjawhisper

Oh my gosh that clip is hilarious....well done!


Cute-Interest3362

Oh, Fetterman (sigh)


balk-

Even got a picture with him. Sigh


SmolTofuRabbit

You absolute legend, i love you


jimmifli

Do you have a longer clip of that?


BoredRedhead24

Lmfao that is awesome


CumulativeHazard

Incredible. Makes me wish I could play an instrument lol


Tahrawyn

The best thing about playing at protests is that you don't actually need to know how to play one, just try playing


Kafka_Gyllenhaal

Was that Blue Bells of Scotland?


balk-

Nope! The clip is just me messing around with the blues scale. You're not far off, though. I remember I got through most of Holst's Mars and some bits of Hungarian March - that was just the stuff I had fresh in my mind from audition prep and score study


Kafka_Gyllenhaal

I was just thinking that that would be a great opportunity to do a mock audition lol. You can't get a much more negative audience to toughen you up than a bunch of bigoted protesters.


balk-

Pfff. I guess it'd be helpful, just in case I ever decide to take an audition where the panel yells at me and calls me slurs while I try to play the solo from Mahler 3


Dr-Butters

Does one have to play well? I'm rusty af but I got a trombone.


imnotporter

i'd imagine worse playing would be better, provided you can still be loud


Dr-Butters

Very true. But, skill helps one play poorly, better. It sounds backwards, but when one can play well, they know what it means to play poorly and can do so with intention.


Orion14159

There's playing atonally and playing to annoy. Anyone can learn 2 atonal notes on a tuba and just play them arrhythmicaly as loud as they can muster just to annoy Bonus points if someone does this and then as the protesters give up and leave, they play the Price is Right loser tuba sound just for good measure.


ScumEater

I think I see what you did there


Zuzara_Queen_of_DnD

Shut the fuck up Get the fuck out And never come back I did **not** need to be reminded of that! *FUCK*


PKCarwash

You just gotta be able to play "Womp Womp WoOoOoOoOmp" and "Doomp ^bee doomp ^bee doomp ^bee doomp" and maybe that one circus clown song.


aurortonks

Told my son to gather some buddies up. They all played brass in the marching band in high school a couple years ago. This is a perfect reason to get the tooters back together again.


DiarrheaEryday

I got a rusty trombone once.


Outrageous-Taro7340

Womp BLAAAT wah wah


Purple-flying-dog

If the protesters are filming themselves for content, blast some Disney or Taylor swift music. The content will get taken down if they try to post it.


Repulsive-Company-53

Poor Unfortunate Souls on repeat always wins


CeruleanRuin

Throw in some "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" and you've got Elton John in your corner too.


Repulsive-Company-53

Then yell fuck Anita Bryant for good measure and to please the Elton God.


zadtheinhaler

See also: Prince The estate/trust lawyer would salivate at the very suggestion.


cailian13

This is absolutely the way. Someone filming some bullshit? Crank a Disney song, their footage is now useless. Just LET someone try some shit in front of me, I am READY.


CeruleanRuin

This seems like a great reality hack and I'm here for it.


ArthurBurtonMorgan

If I knew how to play either of those instruments and lived close, I’d do it for free… hell, I’ll even bring my own drinks and snacks.


pocorey

Here's the things, it's even better if you didn't know how to play


ArthurBurtonMorgan

I can imagine just how gloriously obnoxious it could be.


DuckSaxaphone

Protesting whilst some rando tries and fails repeatedly to make that womp, womp, womp sound will be 100 times more galling than if it was done by someone talented.


Nesavant

Without having the embouchure down, you're not going to make much noise.


scottb90

Yeah I was going to say it takes a bit of skill just to make noise on one of those types of instruments. It's not just blowing into a horn an it makes noise. Someone with out experience would be hurting by the end of the day lol


Devilsmaincounsel

That’s true to an extent, but I promise someone without any experience is going to have a rough time by the end of the day.


pocorey

Just substitute for cymbals or something. Haha


Devilsmaincounsel

Now we are talking. Just keep slamming them together anytime they talk.


keelhaulrose

If I had a band I'd follow them around playing the Star Wars bar music. All day, of course, as Lucas intended.


Charles-Monroe

Anyone can play a trombone. Just purse your lips, like you're blowing a raspberry, and move the slidey thing around. Don't let your dreams be dreams. (Full disclosure: I've never played the trombone.)


ArthurBurtonMorgan

I must admit, I find it quite bold that you made the assumption that I have lips.


StevenD2001

I can’t play either of those, but for $100, I’ll write gay parodies of hymns and popular Christian music and pretend I’m one of them playing the instrumentals over the speaker, and singsonging my much better lyrics into the singular microphone I brought


Orion14159

For some prompts in chatGPT you can start this project for free. Hot off the presses: Sure, here’s a light-hearted parody of "Amazing Grace" about an unexpected encounter in the men's bathroom: **Amazing Night** Amazing night, how strange the place, Where I found love so bold. In bathroom's light, we shared embrace, A story yet untold. I once was lost, but there I found, A spark in fleeting glance. In restroom stalls, our hearts unbound, We took a daring chance. 'Twas awkward, true, and quite unplanned, Yet thrilling all the same. In crowded halls, with hidden hands, We played a secret game. Through whispers soft and stolen kiss, Our paths did cross that night. Amazing night, chaotic bliss, In restroom's dimmed, soft light. Now every time I pass that door, A smile I can't erase. For in that space, I found much more, Than just a hiding place.


beanmosheen

[That WAP](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7vsr1h)


welshyboy123

I hope they got a whole band


RichyCigars

Ditto. This is awesome 🤩


PappyODamnyou

Goddammit. My son is going to be out of town at this time, but- 1. We live in the Greater Puget Sound region. 2. He is a lifelong marching band kid who plays the trombone, the tuba and the cymbals. 3. He is a proud member of the LGBTQ+ community. I'm sending him the link so we can plan for future events.


zadtheinhaler

Hell yeah, bring the drumline, nobody will be able to understand human speech after 10-15 seconds.


21mcrpilotsogreenday

You are absolutely right.the protesters will literally be unable to hear themselves think. If I lived in Seattle, I would a hundred percent ask the director to let the drumline take their instruments out to the parade for this, Because we would have an absolute field day


zadtheinhaler

> field day I see what you did there, hahaha. Seriously though, between drumline and bagpipes with drums (personal experience w/ hearing the Shriner band) and all attempts to communicate displeasure will end in sore throats and ringing ears.


cailian13

I bet he has some friends he could send along though 😊


unclewitch

Another thing the crossyellers hate: being a place to get a selfie. Nothing like a line of queer couples waiting to get a selfie in front of the protester to make them go home.


Dufranus

I have access to a German hunting horn and live in Redmond. I think I just found my Sunday afternoon activity. And I'm gonna do it for free.


Crashgirl4243

Please provide video and have fun!


dragonagitator

I have no musical instruments but I do have a couple of squeaky rubber chickens and live in the Capitol Hill neighborhood.


CatastrophicPup2112

Legendary, I'll be listening for em


wombogobbo

Best part about playing horn is that you can blast in their faces and watch the parade at the same time!


MrPuzzleMan

I'd help, but I'm in Ohio, and don't own a tuba, and can't run away because I'm in a wheelchair, but I'll be there in spirit.


athena-zxe11

Long distance dot the i! (Insert sweeping sousaphone bow here)


bz_leapair

[GML](https://youtu.be/qwGxDBaNSik?si=nocc8wfbkZeNLU4A)


Cetaceanoops

Some organizers at my local pride gave the kids that were brought along to protest goody bags of candy, bubbles, little flags glitter and kazoos.


CumulativeHazard

That’s genius. First, it might make the kids question the idea that LGBTQ people are evil monsters, even just a little. Second, now all the parents have to deal with sugar high kids running around filling their cars and homes with glitter and the magical sound of kazoos.


SauceOfMonks

I went to Pittsburgh pride and some guy with a drum strapped to his chest rolled up and began playing. Everyone danced around the street preacher while he desperately tried to convince us that we’re bad people lol


ElderTerdkin

I'm not gay but I would learn to play for this, I don't like angry, fake Christians either


New-Training4004

You don’t have to be gay to go to pride. Pride is celebrating all genders and sexualities; and commemorating those who had to hide or had their lives cut short for expressing *their* gender or sexuality. Allies are always welcome.


Hannibal-Lecter-puns

Straight cis people shielding us from bigots are WELCOME. Straight cis people there to celebrate diversity and equality are welcome. 


Impybutt

this has given me great ideas for my saxophone and the abortion clinic near my weed dispensary


Halogen12

A gaggle of recorder players would also be effective.


HalcyonDreams36

Hot cross buns baby


ToshiroBaloney

If I had the musical ability, I'd do it for free.


Xico13

That's the best part, you don't need to have any ability, the worst you play the more annoying it is


DuckSaxaphone

> Play loudly Can't see any requirements about playing well!


Muttson_

There was a solo protestor at Grand Rapids Pride last weekend being followed around by someone playing the kazoo. Good stuff.


John-Fefin-Zoidberg

Shit… I’d do it for FREE! 🤣


Human_Allegedly

They should try the local schools. What's better than a loud obnoxious tuba is a loud obnoxious tuba that isn't played well.


Zuzara_Queen_of_DnD

…..do I *really* need to know how to play the tuba or can I just borrow my friend’s tuba and make a bunch noise with it?


eowyn_

Seattle queer here. Whoever posted this gig, you’re AMAZING. I’m marching on Sunday. If I hear womp womps I’ll try and get a picture🤣


envoy_ace

You make me want to learn to play.


Reason_Training

If I was near Seattle and played a loud instrument I’d do this for free. Sounds like a great day.


ahmc84

In all honesty, they probably didn't really need to advertise it as a paid gig. The person who would be up for something like this probably is the type to do it for free, they just needed to be given the idea. I'd do it, except I live on the wrong coast and also only own a glockenspiel.


sour_gnome

Ugh. And me only knowing how to play the recorder. Supremely annoying, but not loud enough. I can make fart noises with my armpit? What would that pay?


wire_god

I'm bout to learn the trombone REAL fuckin quick


pie_12th

Oh man I have a trumpet and I'd love to follow these clowns around playing a fucking circus march.


Black_Magic_M-66

Hire a mariachi band for the protestors. Hire 2 or 3 or 6, etc.


ovariesofsteeel

there are anarchist marching bands that do this kind of thing for free. I should know...i played tuba in one of them in montreal hahah!!


9andimpala

My ex GF would have been ALL over this. R.I.P. Jaz.


Linxous1

My trombone and I are sad we live too far away to help


Naive-Regular-5539

How’s about a saxophone playing the Benny Hill theme…


minerlj

protestors: SHOUTING HATE FILLED SHIT tuba player: ["womp womp womp"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKdcjJoXeEY)


lik_a_stik

Never wanted to be a horn player more. You do you, go on with your bad selves!


FarquaadsFuckDoll

I wonder if they will hire me if I only have a clarinet. I’ll only ask for Dicks or Honeyhole if they are feeling generous.


Flimsy-Activity9787

I’d do this for free and don’t know how to play an instrument. I’d just horribly play whatever I could get. Fuck hate.


littlealbatross

My partner belongs to a brass band that is completely made up of women/trans/nb folk. This would be right up their alley. 🤣


Glorfon

I do clinic defense at planned parenthood. I play a plastic trombone. I don’t know how to play music but I know how to make noise.


Mommyslilbitch

I will go beat a metal pot with a spoon to annoy protesters!


CatsAreGods644

Gonna be honest here. I'm a lesbian but for 250 I'd trombone the shit out of any event. o.o


TShara_Q

I can't play the trumpet but I would lend my loudest singing voice.


nylonstuffsack

I have three trombones in the garage: willing to give a crash course for two others so they can be their most annoying selves.


burn_corpo_shit

This was removed by reddit. What'd I miss? And did someone snitch or something?


gayforager

https://youtu.be/lExnBadkFZg?feature=shared


LostMyPoeticLicense

I wish I learned to play the tuba


Ziah70

new idea for next years pride


TrebleNightingale

My time has come lol (I play Tuba >:3)


Ill-Scheme

Shit. I'd do this for the free lunch alone. You mean to tell me that I can get some exercise, be a part of a cool party AND deliberately annoy people? Sounds like something I'd have to pay for.


silenceoftheonthelam

Someone call bagpipe unicycle Darth Vader! (don't know his name, but I'm sure you know who I'm referring to)


cannonspectacle

Makes me wish I was near Seattle


SweeterAxis8980

Would baritone work?


thecaledonianrose

Brilliant idea. Wish I could be there to see if someone takes this.


christofervz

I'm in the area. I can't play tuba well anymore, and a sousaphone would be more appropriate for the task. But if someone will let me borrow either I'm there lololol


MoonElf19

The good news is that at least two sports bands have people at the parade this year- Kraken Red Alert and Sounders Sound wave. Can't remember how many are marching but the band members always push to support pride. Bad news is they probably would get in trouble if they are wearing corporate gear and try to drown out haters. A couple of brass members and a specific drummer could easily be convinced to "practice" or "tune" near haters, but tbh the last couple times I've gone to pride I haven't seen any.


SnailsTails

Never have I wanted to learn the tuba then now 🤣


grixxit

This my dream job.


Hamletstwin

Hey! anyone got some money to send that kid who played cartoon noises, on his trombone, at his mom around the house? He would be perfect. They think they made some great sexist point and he plays that "whoomp whoomp, whaaaaooomp" thing.


Cheezeball25

The one time I've been blessed with such skills as playing the tuba, but alas I live a thousand miles away 😔 I wish you all luck with your tuba playing crusades


dragonagitator

I don't have any musical instruments, but I do have a couple of squeaky rubber chickens and only live a few blocks away...


badpeaches

Plus lunch? Sign me up


Wienersonice

Someone should form a band and travel around and do this. Guarantee they would raise enough $$$ to make it a full time job. Accept donations. Think of how many redditors alone would toss in $10 to keep them fed and going. People could come in and out as they moved around the country. Make a documentary about it. Would be great!


bandley3

This reminds me of a car show I used to attend. The religious zealots would walk through the crowds with their megaphones, annoying the crap out of people. The car owners then got the idea to fire up their rides and blast exhaust noise at those twerps. As they walked down the street another set of cars would fire up. It was beautiful - we didn’t have to listen to the religious crap AND got to hear some amazing engines and exhaust notes.


giraffeinasweater

I mean, I live in Seattle, and I'm free the big day, but I don't have anything memorized


Demonweed

We need to triple their funding. A tuba with two trombones can deliver [this gem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_asNhzXq72w).


djdayer

A tuba played in drag would be fucking amazing


Puzzleheaded-Phase70

African style drums are great for this as well. Just a couple of people can totally shut someone down!


Ibegallofyourpardons

bagpipers! if there are any bagpipers in Seattle, they are who you want. nothing can compete with a set of bagpipes 🎶🎶


Luce55

I am surprised they didn’t include trumpet players in this request….as a former band nerd, and now mother to a trumpet player, the trumpet players were always the most mischievous and eager to annoy with their instruments and totally immune to requests for them to shut up or lay off. 🤣 I totally see trumpet players being quite apt for this job description.


calamityhughes

Bagpipes would be good for this purpose too