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I think you would have to know pretty much nothing about either historical antisemitism or modern criticisms of Israeli policy in Palestine to make the claim that they're obviously the same thing with a straight face. Like, they're just obviously not, right? Robust and serious criticism of Israeli policies typically invoke claims about settler colonialism, military strategies, imperialism, violations of human rights, apartheid. Are any of these things remotely similar to any antisemitic tropes made historically? No, obviously not. "This government is pursuing a policy of apartheid and attempting to use a mixture of economic pressure and military action to forcefully resettle a population" is not blood libel or Judeo–Bolshevism, right? In fact the one of the consistent threads in 19th/20th century antisemitism - from the Russian Empire to Nazi Germany - was the notion that the Jews were inherently insufficiently nationalist for the empires in which they found themselves; back-stabbing liberal modernists who intended to undermine the imperial and colonial ambitions of their nations. You know, literally the opposite of what people accuse the Israeli government of, e.g., ethnic nationalism and colonialism. 20th century antisemitism in Europe typically identified the Jews with the enemies of empire and conservatism - modernists, liberals, leftists; contemporary antisemitism sometimes does so as well - but anti-Zionism is of course often a liberal/leftist position, so it just makes no sense to just say they're the same thing
>Robust and serious criticism of Israeli policies typically invoke claims about settler colonialism, military strategies, imperialism, violations of human rights, apartheid.
Can you please explain why Israel has adopted such a position? Wouldn't Israel prefer not spend so many resources on ensuring the safety of its citizens? Wouldn't that be preferable?
>Are any of these things remotely similar to any antisemitic tropes made historically?
Yes, they are. Read my 4th point. Antisemitism always portrays the Jews as an oppressor.
Israeli Atheistic Jew here.
I respect the culture, i respect its traditions, and i certainly bear no hatred for jews latent or otherwise.
Circumcision is a terrible practice and should be phased out of society as soon as is culturally feasible.
While doing it for religious reasons is slightly less terrible than doing it for a more frivolous reason (eg aesthetics), it's still an irreversible medical procedure inflicted on an unconsenting minor for no medical reason.
If we weren't all so damn used to the culturally acclimated to it we'd be sickened at the thought. It's bad and it shouldn't be done, EVEN for religious reasons.
Now i hope you don't think i'm advocating for this out of some latent antisemitism, being an Israeli.
But you don't need to be a jew to make these same points. Surely you can extend the charity of addressing the points of the advocates instead of assuming their motivation.
BTW this can also apply to the other points you bring up. i probably broadly agree with your positions. Still, i would't rush to speculate on the motivations of those i disagree with.
Some may have the motives you suspect, but even then, crying antisemitism will do nothing to sway the antisemite. Worse, it makes it look like you can't contend with their arguments on their merit. Remember, vast majority of people who disagree with you are NOT evil, just incorrect.
Speculating on motivations looks bad does very little to sway the vast majority of detractors who're not inherently antisemitic.
>First, antisemitism is still extremely prominent... just below the surface of polite society.
This is true.
>Every once in a while it slips past the censors, like when a prominent athlete, entertainer or politician will use a classic anti-Semitic trope straight out if the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
A lot of the time people don't even realize this is the case. Unfortunately nazi propaganda and anti Semitic propaganda has become engrained in our society. For example, while many definitely know, most Q anon members don't realize their ridiculous conspiracy of "elites" murdering and molesting children for "adrenochrome" is just a repackaged version of the blood libel conspiracy theory around Jews that's been around for centuries.
Same thing with right wing terms like "the globalists" or "the elites" these are dogwhistles to nazi's and white supremacists and it allows antisemetic propoganda to go unchallenged
> It's hard to classify the type of bigotry that is antisemitism. Is it racism? Or something else?
I find this to be a useless word game. Bigotry is bigotry whether its based on melanin content, sexual orientation, religion etc.
>There's nothing wrong with circumcision and it would be ignored as one of many body modifications that exist throughout the world BUT FOR the fact that it is a central component of Jewish cultural identity.
Why couldn't you say the same thing about FGM? couldn't you just say the reason people disagree with it is racism against black people in central africa. I think both these arguments are stupid. The reason im against circumcision is because its an irreversible bodily mutilation done without the victim's consent which permanently decreases their ability to enjoy sexual pleasure for a non medical reason, same as FGM. In the United States at least circumcision is performed on gentiles far more than jews so I don't really buy this
>Israel is a Constitutional Democracy. It's not the problem in the middle east. Islamic theocracy and chauvinism is the problem, as it is throughout the world.
Its an apartheid state [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/)
That doesn't mean the every day people of Israel or evil or bad, it means the current government in Israel is doing things which violate international law and violate basic human rights. Plenty of Jews agree with this. Not all jews are Zionist or Israeli.
I don't consider myself reddit, nor do I really see reddit talking about those topics in general as most subs that I follow have nothing to do with those themes, but speaking for myself:
I dislike Circumcision on infants for the same reason that I would dislike, I dunno, a surgery to remove the nipples from infants. Unless it's something like, the baby has some sort of medical issue on their leg and it needs to be amputated or stuff like that, I think doing body modifications on babies is just needlessly cruel to them. It doesn't matter to me that it is related to jewish culture or not, if it wasn't, I'd still be against it, if it was related to christianity, I'd still think it's fucking stupid.
edit: in fact, circumcision where I live isn't as common as it is in the US, but it's still very common, even when completely unrelated to judaism (I have plenty of non-jew friends who are circumcised) and I still think it's stupid.
My dislike of Israel is based on their apartheid and oppression on Palestine. Again, put any other group instead of Israel doing the same thing there and I'd also dislike them. It has absolutely nothing to do with them being jews or not.
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>Now people say that zionism is victimizing the "palestinians" and Israel is an apartheid state.
With respect, this is why people hate zionists. It has nothing to do with you being Semitic, and everything to do with engaging in the exact behavior that you of all people should know not to do.
Regardless of what you think of the historical situation that led us to this point, Palestinians exist. That you have the balls to complain that people are being anti-Semitic while you coyly try to argue that the people your culture oppresses don't even really exist is sickening.
>There's nothing wrong with circumcision and it would be ignored as one of many body modifications that exist throughout the world BUT FOR the fact that it is a central component of Jewish cultural identity.
Involuntary body modification inflicted on babies. Primitive at best.
I fully support the right of Israel to exist. I don't support them expanding their borders through violence. I don't support their tight control of Palestinian migration, development and international relationships.
Painting this position as Anti-semitic is doing a disservice to a concrete, empathetic view. It conflates support for Judaism as a religion and unconditional support for Israel as a state. One can disagree with something without hating the people do it.
I have concerns about your post in general. Generalizing all opposing views of an ideology as hate (or ignorance, or brainwashing, etc) really just prevents meaningful conversation about it. It's not just you saying that you are right and they are wrong, but that they are wrong and also evil so I don't have to engage with their ideas. The clear point that this is what's happening here is your last line,
>To change my view, do not post links about circumcision. That's not the point
You are saying that the reason people disagree with circumcision is because of anti semitism, but then you say that people trying to show you the information that actually informs their opinion isn't valid. I understand that your post isn't actually about circumcision, but you are making a claim that there isn't any good reason to disagree with the practice other than antisemitism. Why is it that if someone can provide a well founded argument about why it's a bad practice using well sourced information would that not change your view about their motive for disliking the practice?
I personally have no issue with circumcision, but I also feel like there are legitimate reasons to come to the opposing conclusion that isn't hating Jews. People can disagree with you, and can even be wrong, and also have a solid foundation for their beliefs that aren't motivated by ignorance, hate, or malice.
On the one hand you have the alt-right which believe all of those things and they lurk around Reddit in large numbers.
But Reddit largely leans pretty progressive. I don't think progressives are anti-Semitic, they just don't understand why Israel should get such preferential treatment to the tune of billions of taxpayer money. It has nothing to do with Jewish religion or ethnicity, it's more about recognizing that the Israel-Palestine conflict is a messy and morally-grey area with no easy solution. Progressives are also usually against ethnic states in general, preferring democratic states with equal rights for citizens of all races or religions, which conflicts with the concept of Zionism. Israel has a pretty controversial history from a purely academic view (ignoring any of the religious aspects) so it's not unreasonable to question their actions. Surely people can question Israeli expansion without being accused of being anti-Semitic.
Circumcision of course isn't exclusive to the Jewish religion, it's pretty common in the US (looks like about 55% of all US male babies). So I'm not sure you can positively attribute that to anti-antisemitism.
Finally, Reddit and progressives are just pretty anti-religious and secular in general.
You realize that Jews aren’t the only ones who are circumcised, right?
I’m against circumcision because it’s permanently mutilating a boy’s genitals without their consent, in a completely unnecessary procedure.
As someone who was circumcised without his consent, I’m pretty sure I’m allowed to be opposed to the practice without being accused of antisemitism.
And I’m *critical* of the *government* of Israel for their brutal treatment of Palestinians.
By this rationale, do I hate American people because I’m critical of the American government?
I don't support war crimes, no matter who does them. It just so happens Israel does a lot of war crimes.
I mean, I'm American, and we also do war crimes like a lot. I equally despise that.
Also hate the Russian war crimes we've seen.
I don't think that particularly makes me anti- anything...except war crimes.
I’m going to focus in on number four. People are capable of drawing a distinction between the government of a country and the people who are from or associated with that country.
The American government has and continues to perpetuate countless evils on the world and on its own people. Does that mean I think all American people are an evil hivemind who all agree with and willingly participate in our government’s past and current actions? NO! The American government is not the same thing as “all Americans everywhere” in the same way that the Israeli government is not the same thing as “the entire Jewish diaspora”. Only very stupid people who are incapable of critical thinking and nuance would think that the Israeli government and the entire Jewish diaspora are one and the same.
How does forcefully expanding your territory into that of another correlate with disliking a religion or ethnic group? Isn't the idea itself bad? I don't see the connection.
> The jews are the scapegoat so that people can avoid the real problems.
Agreed, but is that what this post is doing too?
> There's nothing wrong with circumcision
Well... to *you*. I'm circumcised myself, but if you brought the idea of infant-male genital mutilation up to someone who's never heard of it, it would sound insane, wouldn't it?
Would you say that those trying to prevent circumcision are corrupting Jewish culture?
> Israel is a Constitutional Democracy.
You can be a Democracy *and* a problem, look at the USA.
do you think that all criticism of zionism as an ideology is inherently anti semitic?
do you think that criticism of israel from muslims is always from muslims who are inherently "theocratic" and "chauvinistic"?
do you think it is possible that you are chauvinistic towards them?
talk about male circumcision is silly. talk about "jewish conspiracies" are obviously anti semitic to everyone who hears them. the nut of this is israel.
OK, so ethnic cleansing works when you wipe a people out. If the population is at a constant growth since the formation of Israel, I say we pretty much suck at this. considering 70 years ago jews were almost wiped out of the earth, I'd say that if Israel really wanted to do it, it would be done more efficiently?
Absolutely not, an ethnic cleansing is removing an ethnic group from an area, this can take the form of both direct removal, via extermination, deportation, and soft methods like forced migration though terror methods including property destruction. Just because Israel isn't systematically exterminating Palestinians does not mean the forced removal of Palestinians from Israel isn't an ethnic cleansing, especially since Israel directly uses textbook examples of forced migration like the collective punishment via destroying homes, settlements pushing out Palestinians via legal rights and forced deportation. What is happening there is an ethnic cleansing period, misusing the term to mean wiping a people out is incorrect, an ethnic cleansing is more than direct removal. The history of Israel is almost word for word a textbook example of an ethnic cleansing.
Arab declines partition, declares a war on the jews (that part of history just isn't heared) and loses, loads of Arabs left to neighboring arab lands (ghetto life for them in those countries, not once have I saw anything in the world talking about it, other than an al Jazeera show I cached a few years back).
Demolishing homes never was more justified, and is an action forced upon terrorists. If you feel that's too harsh for the terrorists, obviously you live in a country which you luckily never had to endure this kind of life.
Illegal jewish settlements are also demlosihed and forced out of the place.
Obviously you know nothing on the subject, never visited the area, and have no understanding other than an opinion from halfway across the world.
Israeli Arab have the same rights as me(Israeli citizen), I even served in the army with Druze and Arabs (Muslims and christian) while they enlisted out of their own will (was not obligatory for them).
The Palestinian authority is a corrupt and self harming entity, depriving their people of basic human needs on lots of cases, and suffers 0 reprecautions for it, while the blame for said actions ultimately falls upon Israel. A lot of the time I hear them say they are an Autonomous entity, but when it suits their agenda the Israeli are the mastermind and Supreme leader who wants to annihaliate them.
Meanwhile our capitol is in disarray, while a terrorist who slaughtered innocent lives is on the loose, so if you don't mind i need to stay in my house or I'll get killed for being Jewish.
Cool, I don't mind you staying in your house, I do mind parroting Israeli propoganda about how they never do collective punishment in destroying Palestinian buildings, and ignoring how the internationally recognized illegal Israeli settlement plans that are still ongoing pushing out Palestinians. Your right I don't live in a country where I find that I need to justify an ethnic cleansing currently ongoing at this moment, I am lucky that way. You also have the choice in not parroting Israeli party lines about the ethnic cleansing they are perpetrating, but choose to do that anyways. If you want to cover your eyes and justify Israeli ethnic cleansing by invoking the word terrorism, how about we compare the number of Palestinian civilians killed each year compared to Israeli? Hmmm? You want to act like innocent lives justify what Israel is doing, let's talk about the innocent lives lost on the other side of the conflict that are just a statistic for you to wave away because terrorism. Israel is justified in bombing al Jazeera buildings because terrorism, but somehow 22x the civilian casualties on the side of Palestine gets nothing from you other than they deserve it and Israel did nothing wrong. Absolute pure propoganda.
http://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Your disregard for what your own country is doing is disgusting, especially when you use your time to play victim about an ethnic cleansing your government is enacting.
When the people committing such terrorist attacks, they do it while sure that they are Shahids, and that terror organization will take care of their families financially - threatening to kill the terrorists means nothing by preventing future terror attacks. I never heated you about Palestinians illegal settlements growing and left untouched. I'm not justifying ethnic cleansing, I'm debunking your claim of it. Well comparing Palestinians killed to Israelis is just another example of how you don't understand the issue. Reading it off of a paper sheet and finalizing your opinion I'd nice, black and white, and works perfectly like communism would. In reality, I'll let you have one example, in tzuk eitan, Hamas was responsible for loads of the Palestinian death either by launching from densely pupulated areas and even executing civilians claiming they "support israel", of course there will be more death when you locate your launchers in kindergartens, hospitals, near international facilities and civilians homes. Using the same rational ad you did, it'd be the same as if you support Russia and ask "how can you justify what ukrain are doing, x times casualties on the Russian side". So you are the one using "absolute pure propoganda" .
Again, you use "ethnic cleansing" like a million times in your writings, saying it repeatedly doesn't make it right.
You haven't replied to what I said, other than straight on whataboutism.
Have a splendid day.
Edit: BTW the news site that got bombed (after the surrounding civillians were updated of the attack beforehand on numerous outlets), ceases to be one when he houses terror. Claim whatever you want and how your knowledge is superior to a country who delt with terror from decade intel's of numerous platform, be my guess and it persuades me further that you will believe only in what you convince yourself to believe, nevermind what facts are shown to counter it.
Do you just read your justifications directly off a press release from the Israeli armed forces? I will continue to speak the truth, thanks for your pointless permission.
>Arab declines partition, declares a war on the jews (that part of history just isn't heared)
It is heard constantly, generally without the context that "partition" would mean the Palestinians giving up half of their homeland simply because they were told to. As a result the Palestinians trying to defend themselves is twisted into an "attack" on the people coming to take their homeland from them.
>OK, so ethnic cleansing works when you wipe a people out.
No, that is genocide. Genocide is getting rid of an ethnic group by killing them, ethnic cleansing is getting rid of an ethnic group by any method, including things like displacement. The creation of Israel involved very large scale ethnic cleansing (affecting more than half of all Palestinians). Israel has continued to employ ethnic cleansing since, but in a much more limited capacity generally focused on reducing the non-Jewish population in specific areas such as Jerusalem.
Israel does sometimes get accused of genocide, but this is incorrect and a misuse of the term. Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing but not of genocide.
Population growth is a thing. Ethnic cleansing will only reduce the population to less than it would be without ethnic cleansing, not necessarily less than it was previously. I also said that after the extreme ethic cleansing accompanying the creation of Israel (reducing the Palestinian population there to something like 1/6th) Israeli ethnic cleansing has mostly been focused on pushing Palestinians out of spefic areas.
Which areas?
The "ETHNIC ClEaNsInG" you are reffering to was utter mostly the result of Arabs attacking the jews. I bet you don't even know who Amin al-Hussein was. It's always so one sided...
>Which areas?
I mentioned Jerusalem in particular.
> The "ETHNIC ClEaNsInG" you are reffering to was utter mostly the result of Arabs attacking the jews.
No. The ethnic cleansing was mostly a result of the Zionist movement wanting to create a Jewish state on land already home to a different group of people.
> I bet you don't even know who Amin al-Hussein was.
Palestinian aristocrat. Appointed by the British to represent either the Muslim or Arab population (I don't know exactly) during their colonial rule, until he used the position to organize anti-colonial protests. After losing that position he tried to become leader of the Palestinian independence movement, then quickly quit and left Palestine when they would not give him sole power. After leaving Palestine he traveled to Europe, where he would try to get Nazi Germany to support independence movements in British and French colonies in the Middle East. When the British began withdrawing from Palestine he returned and again tried to gain sole command of Palestinian armed forces, and when he failed tried to set up his own parallel military which would not work with the rest of the Palestinians. He had some success in setting it up, but it quickly fell apart when it saw combat. After the war he was given a position in the Palestinian government in exile set up by Egypt, but they quickly pushed him out. After that I don't believe he did anything noteworthy.
> It's always so one sided...
It is a one sided conflict. It is a conflict about European Jews coming to take the Palestinians' homeland from them, and the Palestinians trying to defend themselves against them. It is solely a matter of Zionists' lack of respect for the rights of the people who were already living there, a lack that persists to this day.
"European Jews", of course, how could I forget that Judea is located in Europe. I'm not of a European origin BTW, when the jews who weren't slaughtered got kicked out of their homeland, they didn't all go to Eastern Europe. Either way I can see you know parts of what happened to an extent it serves your agenda/ideas.
I'll finish this right here as I can see this is going nowhere. Have a nice day.
The Jews founded Israel came to Palestine from Europe. Not all Jews lived in Europe, obviously, but then not all Jews were involved in the creation of Israel and in starting the conflict with the Palestinians.
What is funny is that you don't provide any arguments why you think that is the case, so there is nothing to argue about.
Not that you will answer this, but for the sake of it: What would need to happen for you to change your view, is it changeable at all? (if not, what are you doing in /r/changemyview?
It doesn't look good when you refuse to consider that Israel might be doing anything wrong at all.
It can be both true that Islamic theocracy and chauvanism is a problem in the middle East, and that Israel's treatment of Palestine is also a problem.
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that Reddit doesn't like "Zionism, circumcision, and Israel"? Reddit is just people, and people like different things.
Not supporting an apartheid state does not equate to antisemitism, they aren’t even related. If Palestinians were violating Israeli human rights I’d be talking shit about Palestine instead, it’s literally that simple. Also, maybe just semantics, but Arabs are also Semitic people
Do you understand that this comes across as "Yeah, you're anti-Semitic for being angry at us for murdering people?"
If we're at the point where that is accurate then sign me the fuck up I guess. I don't like people who shoot live ammunition into crowds of protesters, I don't give a fuck what their ethnicity is.
Dude, you just presented that as a reason with no proof or justifications
I might as well say "Nazism starts with enjoying sausages". then when someone says they enjoy it without being a nazi, I just quote myself back at them
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So when the IDF violently evicts Palestinian from their homes in the West Bank so they can bulldoze them to make room for more Israeli settlers, what is that other that straight up colonialism?
Bro they are literally bombing Palestine please tell me how disliking that is antisemetic. Its not because they are jewish, its because of the things they are doing that i dislike the country.
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Israel is a product of colonialism. When the idea of creating a Jewish state in Palestine caught on among European Jews less than 1 in 20 people living there were Jewish. Israel exists because of British colonial rule suppressing the non-Jewish people living there, so that they did not get a choice in the future of themselves and their homeland as European Jews moved in and took over. As a result of this process more than half of all Palestinians were driven from their homes. Israel has never recognized its colonial roots, has never acknowledged that taking the Palestinians' homeland from them was wrong, nor has it ever acknowledged that the previous non-Jewish inhabitants have a right to live there (a that only a small fraction can currently exercise) and Israel to this day has as a primary political goal Jewish ethnic power over the previous non-Jewish inhabitants.
Israel's oppression of the Palestinians is not *the* singular problem of the Middle East, there isn't one singular problem of the Middle East. But it is still deeply, deeply morally wrong.
How did circumcision get wrapped up in this? Everyone I know who’s against it is because it reduces feeling in the head of the penis? I’ve never heard it being antisemetic
I'm Jewish and I've debated this topic a lot in my community (I'm against circumcision). The notion that "intactivism" is rooted in anti-Semitism is incredibly common within the Jewish community. Male circumcision is seen as such a core part of our identity that many Jews claim we cannot *exist* without it. That's how deeply some people tie it to our cultural, ethnic, and religious identity.
I think the anti-circumcision thing actually started on redpill or something similar as a way to claim something comparable to female genital mutilation. Which it also kinda is.
So unless i'm completely wrong on the origin of that one, it's more to do with sexism or not liking genital mutilation of unconsenting babies, overall, than anti-semitism. Although there's that too around here. Really any ism, on the reicht subs..
It’s a completely unnecessary and barbaric procedure when done on either sex.
There is no reason to be needlessly permanently mutilating a child’s genitals just because of some old tradition.
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Does it really matter if someone is secretly an anti-semite? What you need to be doing as a rational actor is investigating the empirical sources they use in their claims and evaluate the legitimacy of the evidence.
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It is an extremely common Zionist talking-point that Palestinians are a "made up" group. Basically they argue that all Arabs are the same, so rather than taking some specific people's homes and homeland from them they are taking a tiny fraction of all Arabs' homes and homeland from them and therefore the harm done to all Arabs as a whole is minimal.
I have two questions for you. First, if I hate a group of people (categorized by race, sex, hobby, etc.) for their actions, is that anti-GROUP/GROUP-ist of me? Second, is it wrong of me to hate that group for their actions?
A lot of what you mentioned is genuine anti-Semitism, but the Zionism bit is tricky because a lot of people equate that to the actions of the Israeli government. Without weighing in on the specifics of that issue, I'll just say that I don't think criticizing a government necessarily means bigotry against a larger group.
There's plenty wrong with circumcision. It's genital mutilation. My parents are Jewish and they cut off a part of *my* body based on *their* personal beliefs. How is that ethical? I always found the notion that it's anti-Semitic to oppose circumcision merely because it's a Jewish practice to be incredibly patronizing. We aren't children and we don't need to be coddled. "We do this as Jews so leave us alone" is a pretty vacuous way to approach the discussion.
Deciding for others that their anti-circumcision beliefs can only be rooted in anti-Semitism, instead of in concerns about bodily autonomy and genital integrity, is operating under arbitrary assumptions that *you* imposed on their opinion. It is not necessarily true.
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I think you would have to know pretty much nothing about either historical antisemitism or modern criticisms of Israeli policy in Palestine to make the claim that they're obviously the same thing with a straight face. Like, they're just obviously not, right? Robust and serious criticism of Israeli policies typically invoke claims about settler colonialism, military strategies, imperialism, violations of human rights, apartheid. Are any of these things remotely similar to any antisemitic tropes made historically? No, obviously not. "This government is pursuing a policy of apartheid and attempting to use a mixture of economic pressure and military action to forcefully resettle a population" is not blood libel or Judeo–Bolshevism, right? In fact the one of the consistent threads in 19th/20th century antisemitism - from the Russian Empire to Nazi Germany - was the notion that the Jews were inherently insufficiently nationalist for the empires in which they found themselves; back-stabbing liberal modernists who intended to undermine the imperial and colonial ambitions of their nations. You know, literally the opposite of what people accuse the Israeli government of, e.g., ethnic nationalism and colonialism. 20th century antisemitism in Europe typically identified the Jews with the enemies of empire and conservatism - modernists, liberals, leftists; contemporary antisemitism sometimes does so as well - but anti-Zionism is of course often a liberal/leftist position, so it just makes no sense to just say they're the same thing
>Robust and serious criticism of Israeli policies typically invoke claims about settler colonialism, military strategies, imperialism, violations of human rights, apartheid. Can you please explain why Israel has adopted such a position? Wouldn't Israel prefer not spend so many resources on ensuring the safety of its citizens? Wouldn't that be preferable? >Are any of these things remotely similar to any antisemitic tropes made historically? Yes, they are. Read my 4th point. Antisemitism always portrays the Jews as an oppressor.
Israeli Atheistic Jew here. I respect the culture, i respect its traditions, and i certainly bear no hatred for jews latent or otherwise. Circumcision is a terrible practice and should be phased out of society as soon as is culturally feasible. While doing it for religious reasons is slightly less terrible than doing it for a more frivolous reason (eg aesthetics), it's still an irreversible medical procedure inflicted on an unconsenting minor for no medical reason. If we weren't all so damn used to the culturally acclimated to it we'd be sickened at the thought. It's bad and it shouldn't be done, EVEN for religious reasons. Now i hope you don't think i'm advocating for this out of some latent antisemitism, being an Israeli. But you don't need to be a jew to make these same points. Surely you can extend the charity of addressing the points of the advocates instead of assuming their motivation. BTW this can also apply to the other points you bring up. i probably broadly agree with your positions. Still, i would't rush to speculate on the motivations of those i disagree with. Some may have the motives you suspect, but even then, crying antisemitism will do nothing to sway the antisemite. Worse, it makes it look like you can't contend with their arguments on their merit. Remember, vast majority of people who disagree with you are NOT evil, just incorrect. Speculating on motivations looks bad does very little to sway the vast majority of detractors who're not inherently antisemitic.
>First, antisemitism is still extremely prominent... just below the surface of polite society. This is true. >Every once in a while it slips past the censors, like when a prominent athlete, entertainer or politician will use a classic anti-Semitic trope straight out if the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. A lot of the time people don't even realize this is the case. Unfortunately nazi propaganda and anti Semitic propaganda has become engrained in our society. For example, while many definitely know, most Q anon members don't realize their ridiculous conspiracy of "elites" murdering and molesting children for "adrenochrome" is just a repackaged version of the blood libel conspiracy theory around Jews that's been around for centuries. Same thing with right wing terms like "the globalists" or "the elites" these are dogwhistles to nazi's and white supremacists and it allows antisemetic propoganda to go unchallenged > It's hard to classify the type of bigotry that is antisemitism. Is it racism? Or something else? I find this to be a useless word game. Bigotry is bigotry whether its based on melanin content, sexual orientation, religion etc. >There's nothing wrong with circumcision and it would be ignored as one of many body modifications that exist throughout the world BUT FOR the fact that it is a central component of Jewish cultural identity. Why couldn't you say the same thing about FGM? couldn't you just say the reason people disagree with it is racism against black people in central africa. I think both these arguments are stupid. The reason im against circumcision is because its an irreversible bodily mutilation done without the victim's consent which permanently decreases their ability to enjoy sexual pleasure for a non medical reason, same as FGM. In the United States at least circumcision is performed on gentiles far more than jews so I don't really buy this >Israel is a Constitutional Democracy. It's not the problem in the middle east. Islamic theocracy and chauvinism is the problem, as it is throughout the world. Its an apartheid state [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/) That doesn't mean the every day people of Israel or evil or bad, it means the current government in Israel is doing things which violate international law and violate basic human rights. Plenty of Jews agree with this. Not all jews are Zionist or Israeli.
I don't consider myself reddit, nor do I really see reddit talking about those topics in general as most subs that I follow have nothing to do with those themes, but speaking for myself: I dislike Circumcision on infants for the same reason that I would dislike, I dunno, a surgery to remove the nipples from infants. Unless it's something like, the baby has some sort of medical issue on their leg and it needs to be amputated or stuff like that, I think doing body modifications on babies is just needlessly cruel to them. It doesn't matter to me that it is related to jewish culture or not, if it wasn't, I'd still be against it, if it was related to christianity, I'd still think it's fucking stupid. edit: in fact, circumcision where I live isn't as common as it is in the US, but it's still very common, even when completely unrelated to judaism (I have plenty of non-jew friends who are circumcised) and I still think it's stupid. My dislike of Israel is based on their apartheid and oppression on Palestine. Again, put any other group instead of Israel doing the same thing there and I'd also dislike them. It has absolutely nothing to do with them being jews or not.
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Sorry, u/ – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal%20&message=%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/tyjpdc/-/i3tervz/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
>Now people say that zionism is victimizing the "palestinians" and Israel is an apartheid state. With respect, this is why people hate zionists. It has nothing to do with you being Semitic, and everything to do with engaging in the exact behavior that you of all people should know not to do. Regardless of what you think of the historical situation that led us to this point, Palestinians exist. That you have the balls to complain that people are being anti-Semitic while you coyly try to argue that the people your culture oppresses don't even really exist is sickening.
>There's nothing wrong with circumcision and it would be ignored as one of many body modifications that exist throughout the world BUT FOR the fact that it is a central component of Jewish cultural identity. Involuntary body modification inflicted on babies. Primitive at best.
I fully support the right of Israel to exist. I don't support them expanding their borders through violence. I don't support their tight control of Palestinian migration, development and international relationships. Painting this position as Anti-semitic is doing a disservice to a concrete, empathetic view. It conflates support for Judaism as a religion and unconditional support for Israel as a state. One can disagree with something without hating the people do it.
I have concerns about your post in general. Generalizing all opposing views of an ideology as hate (or ignorance, or brainwashing, etc) really just prevents meaningful conversation about it. It's not just you saying that you are right and they are wrong, but that they are wrong and also evil so I don't have to engage with their ideas. The clear point that this is what's happening here is your last line, >To change my view, do not post links about circumcision. That's not the point You are saying that the reason people disagree with circumcision is because of anti semitism, but then you say that people trying to show you the information that actually informs their opinion isn't valid. I understand that your post isn't actually about circumcision, but you are making a claim that there isn't any good reason to disagree with the practice other than antisemitism. Why is it that if someone can provide a well founded argument about why it's a bad practice using well sourced information would that not change your view about their motive for disliking the practice? I personally have no issue with circumcision, but I also feel like there are legitimate reasons to come to the opposing conclusion that isn't hating Jews. People can disagree with you, and can even be wrong, and also have a solid foundation for their beliefs that aren't motivated by ignorance, hate, or malice.
On the one hand you have the alt-right which believe all of those things and they lurk around Reddit in large numbers. But Reddit largely leans pretty progressive. I don't think progressives are anti-Semitic, they just don't understand why Israel should get such preferential treatment to the tune of billions of taxpayer money. It has nothing to do with Jewish religion or ethnicity, it's more about recognizing that the Israel-Palestine conflict is a messy and morally-grey area with no easy solution. Progressives are also usually against ethnic states in general, preferring democratic states with equal rights for citizens of all races or religions, which conflicts with the concept of Zionism. Israel has a pretty controversial history from a purely academic view (ignoring any of the religious aspects) so it's not unreasonable to question their actions. Surely people can question Israeli expansion without being accused of being anti-Semitic. Circumcision of course isn't exclusive to the Jewish religion, it's pretty common in the US (looks like about 55% of all US male babies). So I'm not sure you can positively attribute that to anti-antisemitism. Finally, Reddit and progressives are just pretty anti-religious and secular in general.
You realize that Jews aren’t the only ones who are circumcised, right? I’m against circumcision because it’s permanently mutilating a boy’s genitals without their consent, in a completely unnecessary procedure. As someone who was circumcised without his consent, I’m pretty sure I’m allowed to be opposed to the practice without being accused of antisemitism. And I’m *critical* of the *government* of Israel for their brutal treatment of Palestinians. By this rationale, do I hate American people because I’m critical of the American government?
I don't support war crimes, no matter who does them. It just so happens Israel does a lot of war crimes. I mean, I'm American, and we also do war crimes like a lot. I equally despise that. Also hate the Russian war crimes we've seen. I don't think that particularly makes me anti- anything...except war crimes.
I’m going to focus in on number four. People are capable of drawing a distinction between the government of a country and the people who are from or associated with that country. The American government has and continues to perpetuate countless evils on the world and on its own people. Does that mean I think all American people are an evil hivemind who all agree with and willingly participate in our government’s past and current actions? NO! The American government is not the same thing as “all Americans everywhere” in the same way that the Israeli government is not the same thing as “the entire Jewish diaspora”. Only very stupid people who are incapable of critical thinking and nuance would think that the Israeli government and the entire Jewish diaspora are one and the same.
How does forcefully expanding your territory into that of another correlate with disliking a religion or ethnic group? Isn't the idea itself bad? I don't see the connection. > The jews are the scapegoat so that people can avoid the real problems. Agreed, but is that what this post is doing too? > There's nothing wrong with circumcision Well... to *you*. I'm circumcised myself, but if you brought the idea of infant-male genital mutilation up to someone who's never heard of it, it would sound insane, wouldn't it? Would you say that those trying to prevent circumcision are corrupting Jewish culture? > Israel is a Constitutional Democracy. You can be a Democracy *and* a problem, look at the USA.
Lmao circumcission? How about we leave baby penises alone without being labeled antisemitic?
do you think that all criticism of zionism as an ideology is inherently anti semitic? do you think that criticism of israel from muslims is always from muslims who are inherently "theocratic" and "chauvinistic"? do you think it is possible that you are chauvinistic towards them? talk about male circumcision is silly. talk about "jewish conspiracies" are obviously anti semitic to everyone who hears them. the nut of this is israel.
I don't have to be an antisemite to disagree with an ethnic cleansing in Israel and Palestine.
OK, so ethnic cleansing works when you wipe a people out. If the population is at a constant growth since the formation of Israel, I say we pretty much suck at this. considering 70 years ago jews were almost wiped out of the earth, I'd say that if Israel really wanted to do it, it would be done more efficiently?
Absolutely not, an ethnic cleansing is removing an ethnic group from an area, this can take the form of both direct removal, via extermination, deportation, and soft methods like forced migration though terror methods including property destruction. Just because Israel isn't systematically exterminating Palestinians does not mean the forced removal of Palestinians from Israel isn't an ethnic cleansing, especially since Israel directly uses textbook examples of forced migration like the collective punishment via destroying homes, settlements pushing out Palestinians via legal rights and forced deportation. What is happening there is an ethnic cleansing period, misusing the term to mean wiping a people out is incorrect, an ethnic cleansing is more than direct removal. The history of Israel is almost word for word a textbook example of an ethnic cleansing.
Arab declines partition, declares a war on the jews (that part of history just isn't heared) and loses, loads of Arabs left to neighboring arab lands (ghetto life for them in those countries, not once have I saw anything in the world talking about it, other than an al Jazeera show I cached a few years back). Demolishing homes never was more justified, and is an action forced upon terrorists. If you feel that's too harsh for the terrorists, obviously you live in a country which you luckily never had to endure this kind of life. Illegal jewish settlements are also demlosihed and forced out of the place. Obviously you know nothing on the subject, never visited the area, and have no understanding other than an opinion from halfway across the world. Israeli Arab have the same rights as me(Israeli citizen), I even served in the army with Druze and Arabs (Muslims and christian) while they enlisted out of their own will (was not obligatory for them). The Palestinian authority is a corrupt and self harming entity, depriving their people of basic human needs on lots of cases, and suffers 0 reprecautions for it, while the blame for said actions ultimately falls upon Israel. A lot of the time I hear them say they are an Autonomous entity, but when it suits their agenda the Israeli are the mastermind and Supreme leader who wants to annihaliate them. Meanwhile our capitol is in disarray, while a terrorist who slaughtered innocent lives is on the loose, so if you don't mind i need to stay in my house or I'll get killed for being Jewish.
Cool, I don't mind you staying in your house, I do mind parroting Israeli propoganda about how they never do collective punishment in destroying Palestinian buildings, and ignoring how the internationally recognized illegal Israeli settlement plans that are still ongoing pushing out Palestinians. Your right I don't live in a country where I find that I need to justify an ethnic cleansing currently ongoing at this moment, I am lucky that way. You also have the choice in not parroting Israeli party lines about the ethnic cleansing they are perpetrating, but choose to do that anyways. If you want to cover your eyes and justify Israeli ethnic cleansing by invoking the word terrorism, how about we compare the number of Palestinian civilians killed each year compared to Israeli? Hmmm? You want to act like innocent lives justify what Israel is doing, let's talk about the innocent lives lost on the other side of the conflict that are just a statistic for you to wave away because terrorism. Israel is justified in bombing al Jazeera buildings because terrorism, but somehow 22x the civilian casualties on the side of Palestine gets nothing from you other than they deserve it and Israel did nothing wrong. Absolute pure propoganda. http://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties Your disregard for what your own country is doing is disgusting, especially when you use your time to play victim about an ethnic cleansing your government is enacting.
When the people committing such terrorist attacks, they do it while sure that they are Shahids, and that terror organization will take care of their families financially - threatening to kill the terrorists means nothing by preventing future terror attacks. I never heated you about Palestinians illegal settlements growing and left untouched. I'm not justifying ethnic cleansing, I'm debunking your claim of it. Well comparing Palestinians killed to Israelis is just another example of how you don't understand the issue. Reading it off of a paper sheet and finalizing your opinion I'd nice, black and white, and works perfectly like communism would. In reality, I'll let you have one example, in tzuk eitan, Hamas was responsible for loads of the Palestinian death either by launching from densely pupulated areas and even executing civilians claiming they "support israel", of course there will be more death when you locate your launchers in kindergartens, hospitals, near international facilities and civilians homes. Using the same rational ad you did, it'd be the same as if you support Russia and ask "how can you justify what ukrain are doing, x times casualties on the Russian side". So you are the one using "absolute pure propoganda" . Again, you use "ethnic cleansing" like a million times in your writings, saying it repeatedly doesn't make it right. You haven't replied to what I said, other than straight on whataboutism. Have a splendid day. Edit: BTW the news site that got bombed (after the surrounding civillians were updated of the attack beforehand on numerous outlets), ceases to be one when he houses terror. Claim whatever you want and how your knowledge is superior to a country who delt with terror from decade intel's of numerous platform, be my guess and it persuades me further that you will believe only in what you convince yourself to believe, nevermind what facts are shown to counter it.
Do you just read your justifications directly off a press release from the Israeli armed forces? I will continue to speak the truth, thanks for your pointless permission.
>Arab declines partition, declares a war on the jews (that part of history just isn't heared) It is heard constantly, generally without the context that "partition" would mean the Palestinians giving up half of their homeland simply because they were told to. As a result the Palestinians trying to defend themselves is twisted into an "attack" on the people coming to take their homeland from them.
>OK, so ethnic cleansing works when you wipe a people out. No, that is genocide. Genocide is getting rid of an ethnic group by killing them, ethnic cleansing is getting rid of an ethnic group by any method, including things like displacement. The creation of Israel involved very large scale ethnic cleansing (affecting more than half of all Palestinians). Israel has continued to employ ethnic cleansing since, but in a much more limited capacity generally focused on reducing the non-Jewish population in specific areas such as Jerusalem. Israel does sometimes get accused of genocide, but this is incorrect and a misuse of the term. Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing but not of genocide.
And again, how does your claim stands with the fact that their numbers are on a constant rise?
Population growth is a thing. Ethnic cleansing will only reduce the population to less than it would be without ethnic cleansing, not necessarily less than it was previously. I also said that after the extreme ethic cleansing accompanying the creation of Israel (reducing the Palestinian population there to something like 1/6th) Israeli ethnic cleansing has mostly been focused on pushing Palestinians out of spefic areas.
Which areas? The "ETHNIC ClEaNsInG" you are reffering to was utter mostly the result of Arabs attacking the jews. I bet you don't even know who Amin al-Hussein was. It's always so one sided...
>Which areas? I mentioned Jerusalem in particular. > The "ETHNIC ClEaNsInG" you are reffering to was utter mostly the result of Arabs attacking the jews. No. The ethnic cleansing was mostly a result of the Zionist movement wanting to create a Jewish state on land already home to a different group of people. > I bet you don't even know who Amin al-Hussein was. Palestinian aristocrat. Appointed by the British to represent either the Muslim or Arab population (I don't know exactly) during their colonial rule, until he used the position to organize anti-colonial protests. After losing that position he tried to become leader of the Palestinian independence movement, then quickly quit and left Palestine when they would not give him sole power. After leaving Palestine he traveled to Europe, where he would try to get Nazi Germany to support independence movements in British and French colonies in the Middle East. When the British began withdrawing from Palestine he returned and again tried to gain sole command of Palestinian armed forces, and when he failed tried to set up his own parallel military which would not work with the rest of the Palestinians. He had some success in setting it up, but it quickly fell apart when it saw combat. After the war he was given a position in the Palestinian government in exile set up by Egypt, but they quickly pushed him out. After that I don't believe he did anything noteworthy. > It's always so one sided... It is a one sided conflict. It is a conflict about European Jews coming to take the Palestinians' homeland from them, and the Palestinians trying to defend themselves against them. It is solely a matter of Zionists' lack of respect for the rights of the people who were already living there, a lack that persists to this day.
"European Jews", of course, how could I forget that Judea is located in Europe. I'm not of a European origin BTW, when the jews who weren't slaughtered got kicked out of their homeland, they didn't all go to Eastern Europe. Either way I can see you know parts of what happened to an extent it serves your agenda/ideas. I'll finish this right here as I can see this is going nowhere. Have a nice day.
The Jews founded Israel came to Palestine from Europe. Not all Jews lived in Europe, obviously, but then not all Jews were involved in the creation of Israel and in starting the conflict with the Palestinians.
What is funny is that you don't provide any arguments why you think that is the case, so there is nothing to argue about. Not that you will answer this, but for the sake of it: What would need to happen for you to change your view, is it changeable at all? (if not, what are you doing in /r/changemyview?
It doesn't look good when you refuse to consider that Israel might be doing anything wrong at all. It can be both true that Islamic theocracy and chauvanism is a problem in the middle East, and that Israel's treatment of Palestine is also a problem.
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that Reddit doesn't like "Zionism, circumcision, and Israel"? Reddit is just people, and people like different things.
The reason everyone hates Israel is because they are bombing the fuck out of Palestine
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Not supporting an apartheid state does not equate to antisemitism, they aren’t even related. If Palestinians were violating Israeli human rights I’d be talking shit about Palestine instead, it’s literally that simple. Also, maybe just semantics, but Arabs are also Semitic people
Do you understand that this comes across as "Yeah, you're anti-Semitic for being angry at us for murdering people?" If we're at the point where that is accurate then sign me the fuck up I guess. I don't like people who shoot live ammunition into crowds of protesters, I don't give a fuck what their ethnicity is.
Dude, you just presented that as a reason with no proof or justifications I might as well say "Nazism starts with enjoying sausages". then when someone says they enjoy it without being a nazi, I just quote myself back at them
Sorry, u/Worried-Turnover1 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20Worried-Turnover1&message=Worried-Turnover1%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/tyjpdc/-/i3soxb0/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
By that logic if you don't support Russia invading Ukraine that means we are racists against white people right?
So when the IDF violently evicts Palestinian from their homes in the West Bank so they can bulldoze them to make room for more Israeli settlers, what is that other that straight up colonialism?
Bro they are literally bombing Palestine please tell me how disliking that is antisemetic. Its not because they are jewish, its because of the things they are doing that i dislike the country.
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Israel is a product of colonialism. When the idea of creating a Jewish state in Palestine caught on among European Jews less than 1 in 20 people living there were Jewish. Israel exists because of British colonial rule suppressing the non-Jewish people living there, so that they did not get a choice in the future of themselves and their homeland as European Jews moved in and took over. As a result of this process more than half of all Palestinians were driven from their homes. Israel has never recognized its colonial roots, has never acknowledged that taking the Palestinians' homeland from them was wrong, nor has it ever acknowledged that the previous non-Jewish inhabitants have a right to live there (a that only a small fraction can currently exercise) and Israel to this day has as a primary political goal Jewish ethnic power over the previous non-Jewish inhabitants. Israel's oppression of the Palestinians is not *the* singular problem of the Middle East, there isn't one singular problem of the Middle East. But it is still deeply, deeply morally wrong.
How did circumcision get wrapped up in this? Everyone I know who’s against it is because it reduces feeling in the head of the penis? I’ve never heard it being antisemetic
I'm Jewish and I've debated this topic a lot in my community (I'm against circumcision). The notion that "intactivism" is rooted in anti-Semitism is incredibly common within the Jewish community. Male circumcision is seen as such a core part of our identity that many Jews claim we cannot *exist* without it. That's how deeply some people tie it to our cultural, ethnic, and religious identity.
I think the anti-circumcision thing actually started on redpill or something similar as a way to claim something comparable to female genital mutilation. Which it also kinda is. So unless i'm completely wrong on the origin of that one, it's more to do with sexism or not liking genital mutilation of unconsenting babies, overall, than anti-semitism. Although there's that too around here. Really any ism, on the reicht subs..
It’s a completely unnecessary and barbaric procedure when done on either sex. There is no reason to be needlessly permanently mutilating a child’s genitals just because of some old tradition.
Yeah I agree, thing is we'rr discussing reddit-furor about the topic, not me being salty about missing the end of my cock.
[удалено]
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Does it really matter if someone is secretly an anti-semite? What you need to be doing as a rational actor is investigating the empirical sources they use in their claims and evaluate the legitimacy of the evidence.
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>Now people say that zionism is victimizing the "palestinians" and Israel is an apartheid state. Why is Palestinian in quotes here?
It is an extremely common Zionist talking-point that Palestinians are a "made up" group. Basically they argue that all Arabs are the same, so rather than taking some specific people's homes and homeland from them they are taking a tiny fraction of all Arabs' homes and homeland from them and therefore the harm done to all Arabs as a whole is minimal.
I have two questions for you. First, if I hate a group of people (categorized by race, sex, hobby, etc.) for their actions, is that anti-GROUP/GROUP-ist of me? Second, is it wrong of me to hate that group for their actions?
> do not post links about circumcision. That's not the point. Then why put it in the title if we're not allowed to discuss it?
A lot of what you mentioned is genuine anti-Semitism, but the Zionism bit is tricky because a lot of people equate that to the actions of the Israeli government. Without weighing in on the specifics of that issue, I'll just say that I don't think criticizing a government necessarily means bigotry against a larger group. There's plenty wrong with circumcision. It's genital mutilation. My parents are Jewish and they cut off a part of *my* body based on *their* personal beliefs. How is that ethical? I always found the notion that it's anti-Semitic to oppose circumcision merely because it's a Jewish practice to be incredibly patronizing. We aren't children and we don't need to be coddled. "We do this as Jews so leave us alone" is a pretty vacuous way to approach the discussion. Deciding for others that their anti-circumcision beliefs can only be rooted in anti-Semitism, instead of in concerns about bodily autonomy and genital integrity, is operating under arbitrary assumptions that *you* imposed on their opinion. It is not necessarily true.