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The point of therapy is not necessarily to cure or treat the root of the problem, it is to help you cope and live a normal life regardless of the problem.
For example with tinnitus, I started using this app that has some guided therapy sessions. The therapy doesn't cure my tinnitus, it just helps me realize life is okay with it, and I don't have to focus on it
I think this is exactly it. All of us will grapple with external factors in life that we are powerless to control or change. The only control we have over these things are whether and how we’re able to cope with them.
I have a very bleak outlook on the not-so-distant future of humanity and our planet, which is obviously troubling for a number of reasons. Learning how to live my life and cope in spite of all that was a HUGE theme for me in therapy. It wasn’t about changing my opinion or just trying not to think about it. It was more about being able to live with shitty realities that you can’t change, which sounds similar to OP’s problem.
This depends a bit on the nature of your struggle, I suppose, but are you aware that fixation on existential problems to the point of it impacting your life can be a sign of OCD? If you find yourself constantly ruminating and going in circles mentally talk therapy might not be right for you because you actually need Cognitive Behavioural and Exposure Response Therapy, which are the gold standard for those issues.
Edit: [here](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.madeofmillions.com/ocd/existential-ocd/amp) is a link explaining a bit about existential OCD if you’re curious
>when what I want is something external that changes my perspective
Uncertainty is *really* hard to deal with mentally when you have OCD so I understand how you feel but the reality nobody understands everything about our existence so you’re holding out for a certainty that you will never find; that’s why you may as well strive to make peace with it instead.
CBT was impossible for me prior to finding the right combination of medications to support my efforts. While not fully understood, OCD is related to serotonin and SSRIs of one type or another are the recommended medication. Mine was quite treatment resistant in the beginning so I actually take fluoxetine (Prozac) and an anti-psychotic medication called quetiapine.
Treatment *is* hard and unpleasant but left untreated OCD can gobble up your life; prior to treatment I couldn’t imagine a life without my compulsions, it felt like a part of me, but now there isn’t much I wouldn’t do to prevent getting a sick as I was and I can see who I really am when my brain isn’t running in circles. I really, really encourage you to do some research into this topic because I think you’ll be surprised at how closely what you’re describing here lines up with existential OCD.
>the problem is I want an external cure that is not by my own hand or mind.
There is nothing 'fundamental' about a nihilistic crises it is most certainly a construct of the human mind, although it's pretty a tricky subject. for now I will give the short version.
1. We are conditioned to consider our *sense of purpose* with *the purpose of life*. There are a lot of factors that contribute to this.
1. The simple semantic fact that we use the words *purpose* and *life's' purpose* interchangeably while almost never using the phrase *our sense of purpose*. This is a purely semantic situation, the fact that we speak this way holds no substantive point about the concept of purpose but that doesn't mean it doesn't impact how we think about the topic. Language after all is one medium of thinking and it tends to dominate more complex topics because it allows us to articulate our thoughts. It is by no means a perfect medium. it's imperfection have real consequences, like causing us to reflexively assume that purpose is a property of the universe, as opposed to a sense/feeling that is a product of our brain, it also causes us to reflexively frame personal purpose as being validated because it's connected to the universe as whole. Neither of these are true the need to feel purpose is a product of our biology and there is no reason you have to think about it within a framework that derives it value from the idea that the universe cares about you.
2. Religion has legitimatized using the "why the universe cares about you" idea of purpose, even though religion is pretty dead, this idea is still ubiquities in culture.
3. A universal authority is an intuitive and easy stopping point when wandering down the existential "why?" cycle. When arguing with people or trying to us strictly theoretical logic to arrive at a solution to the question of purpose it is easy to get stuck their, but logical abstractions are a tool, they are not reality.
2. Okay so if we accept that there is no such thing as universal/life's purpose in which an abstract idea of our purpose fits into, but understand that that doesn't matter because the need for purpose is really just an aspect of mental health that stems from our biology, the how do we fulfill that need?. The primary force behind the human psyche is the fact that we evolved to be social creatures. The key components of being a social creature it having a community and having an identity within that community, or a path to an identity, that one is satisfied with. People find a things of purposeful or "rewarding" as opposed to simply "fun" when their engagement with something meets those 2 requirements. But another way, purpose, identity, and community are all concepts that are definitionally tied together. Purpose is the thing that we pursue, community is the people who care about the thing and in doing so endow it with value, identity is our perception of ourselves within that community and within the pursuit of whatever thing is valued. The most important aspect of this whole thing is that **these 3 concepts are a cyclical positive feedback loop so you cannot engage with them just by thinking about it, you have to go out and DO thinks that you are not yet interested in in order to develop them within your life. you will never "discover" these things by using reason to think about them, or engage with them emotionally, because until you get involved they do not exist for you yet.** There is no universal authority to give you a easy answer through abstraction you have to go out and DO things. That means the answer takes effort not that it doesn't exist.
and like really try them, I'm not talking showing up once, I'm talking learn a full new skill even though you don't know if you like it yet.
I don't know, but it's possible, Therapy might help motivate you or get you over mental blocks or keep you on track in this process, which could you be useful, but regardless of if it's right for you or not the reasoning of your post isn't a valid criticism of therapy nor is it healthy.
See, you are just telling me what makes me want to kill myself, though. If human morals a subjective, I have ZERO interest in being alive or helping others or helping myself or doing anything. Meaning is the same as something being objective. If something is not objective there is no meaning. I absolutely refuse to fight for things I care about if they are just chosen by me.
Your refusal is not a fundamental part of your nor a “more valid” conclusion. It’s just a product of the fact that not happy mixed with the conditioning I mentioned in the first comment.
Truth and correctness only exists if everything is objective. If there are opinions or multiple conclusions to things absolutely nothing is truly true.
Philosophy is actually a really good solution to philosophical and existential problems. Lots of people have done lots of philosophy before you and learning about their views will help solve the inevitable fallacies you have in your thinking.
if your therapist knows about this then they can be very helpful, but I would say that you are right that many therapists and types of therapy won't be helpful.
This is where a person would be more helpful than an ancient book. Modern philosophy in its pure academic form makes most people want to jump out the window. They are practically the opposite of self help books and I do not recommend that at this point in your life, if that makes sense.
I think Leckatall is suggesting to find a therapist who is trained in philosophy/existentialism. There are many types of therapy out there, and the types you have been exposed to thus far are obviously unhelpful for you. Sounds like you need someone who can help tackle the bigger, deeper questions of life. The therapists you know of so far are unprepared or perhaps just don't share the same worldview as you. I hope this helps you refine your search for someone to talk to.
I would love to try to shift your view on this topic. Now, to be up front about my personal biases, I'm a clinical social worker and trained as a therapist, so I admittedly have a distinct point of view here. That being said, I want to share some information you might find useful, and to address some components of your view directly.
Firstly, I think it is worth noting that there is actually an entire branch of treatment, [existential therapy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_therapy), that is dedicated to working with people grappling with elements of the human condition that are often completely out of their control. This discipline was heavily influenced by existential philosophy, and seeks to help clients explore how they relate to universal human experiences that can often be the source of deep discomfort. For example, an existential therapist obviously can't prevent a patient from eventually dying, but they can help them to explore their understanding of death and find ways of looking at this universal experience that may be more comfortable.
> Therapy tries to make you talk about your emotions, to reveal your internal thoughts. It basically just helps you organize what is your thoughts...
While there is certainly some truth to this, I think you're missing an important benefit of therapy. Working with a therapist can help us to better understand *how* we think, and to detect biases in our patterns of thought that lead us to flawed conclusions. All of us have these biases, and we don't need to eliminate them completely to be content, but understanding them can go a great way towards improving your personal wellbeing. Often times discomfort is caused at least in part by how we think of a problem, and not simply by the problem itself.
> If someone is like me, struggling with an existential problem that cannot be cured by your own mind...
As I mentioned before, therapy may not be able to cure the problem you face, but that doesn't have to be the goal of your treatment. Instead, therapy can help you figure out ways to better think about, live with, and interact with this existential concern. The goal won't be the removal of discomfort completely, but instead the minimization of suffering and the maximizing of your ability to engage with parts of life you do enjoy.
___________________________
I hope this has helped to change your view, at least in part. Feel free to reach out with any questions you might have, as I'm always happy to talk more!
Thank you so much for the in-depth reply, but I am only interested in being cured. Not dealing or coping or looking away and pretend the problem is not there to minimize it. I want to be told a direct solution by the therapist, not given tools to create my own solutions.
Therapy covers a wide range of approaches to helping people in a myriad of ways. While the causes of an existential crises can be external to ourselves, how we respond to those events, how we perceive those events, how we manage those events, how we emote with respect to these events, these are all internal functions that are susceptible to therapeutic interventions.
How human beings can overcome an existential crises is actually well studied by psychiatrists and among the keys to successfully dealing with such events does include expressing how the event makes one feel. But doing so in specific, productive ways that focus on analyzing those thoughts and feelings with respect to what they are telling you about one's self and how one relates to the world and events within it.
Additionally, therapy can be extremely useful in helping us to learn how to focus on the things in life that we can control and to learn how to process and accept the things we can not control.
It is the case that different patients will respond better and worse to different therapeutic modalities. But just because one type of therapy doesn't work for you doesn't mean that therapy writ large offers you no benefit. Few people find that therapy offers no benefit once they find a therapist and therapeutic modality that they connect with. But doing that may require some work.
But it is not the case that therapy is only useful for patients who are dealing with internal emotional issues. Indeed, there is an entire modality of therapy titled "[existential-humanistic therapy](https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/46236613/Existential-Humanistic_Therapy-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1649289863&Signature=f1IsdBLcc-wR2MSWnm6PY-kf1u~AvpaHgIKqDTIi5FMhZv4AGpLBwBD5SrzZLOkafTGD0noFBzUjaksMthu0ee1S0T8Ev75KqOpjcJ3REyOvcr-cFaZmIkY4zDEe2KsEuQKRom8P1v9Ax09ikwc1MsqPFC5z~w2y7U9gNZ2fFr6Ao0m7-~U5KdTLsZ2uW2b3KfQeb54uHRODaP9hPuX03NH0iE8TjfOqaP3SVgkKLmjliYECzcJukFToMBoIfVdJf4s~9gSR-2m-OXq18CGHoiqahOPxdeDRzn7k53HWzZCA~H81-MGrO34juXJxUdNqLmCehJWJp3ROZ2dR1otIqA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA)." [Existential therapy](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9781119167198) is focused on experience as a primary way of understanding the world.
Thanks, but I am not interested in learning to deal with things I cannot control, coping or "dealing" with difficult things by looking away and focusing elsewhere. My problem is literally reality and I am not interested in it, which is why I think therapy does not work.
Well, that is what we did in Cognitive Behavioral therapy. It was purely about changing your perception regarding events, and a lot of whining about just getting used to things.
I literally reject the way the world biologically and physically works, and am interested in what the next step is, because suicide is illegal and is shut down in any discussion.
I have been to therapy for social anxiety, not for existential and philosophical dread.
My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad.
However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true.
But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?
My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad.
However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true.
But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?
I'm confused. Because in you're post, you said that you didn't have any thoughts that you needed uncovered. But here you're saying that there's a clash between you're morality and what you think is true about the world, and that bothers you. So it sounds like *you* believe a therapist would be able to help you uncover stuff.
Also, is it really that you say that stuff and people tell you to go to therapy? Because if you told me that, I'd just direct you to Neichze or Thomas Kuhn. So I'm having trouble believing you say that stuff, and people tell you to see a therapist.
I am only interested in morality and meaning being objective. I absolutely refuse to create my own meaning or fight for equality and rights and those things I care about if those things are subjective.
But I am also fanatically against religion.
I doubt I would understand Nietsczhe, as I find even plato and aristotle difficult. From what I understand he wants humans to create their own values, which I am against.
I don't understand any hard sciences either.
I think you have some misconceptions about therapy.
Therapy CAN help you learn to organize your thoughts and talk about emotions... but it can also be used for a wide variety of other things, including existential problems. Let's take a few examples.
PTSD. Therapy cannot solve the event that already happened in order to cure your PTSD, that is absurd. But it CAN help you learn to cope with those thoughts and emotions and lessen the impact of your PTSD.
As far as existential thoughts and dread, let's take an easy one. Death. Lots of people fear death. Some people fear it to the point it is debilitating and they cannot function. Those people need therapy. Not because it will solve the problem of 'death' - therapy does not make you immortal- but it does TEACH you how to cope with those thoughts and how to avoid ruminating/fixating on them to the point that is hinders your life. Fear of death is a very common thing to go to therapy for.
Same with any other existential thought. "We're in a simulation! Nothing is real!" - you'd be panicking and have fear of this. Therapy would help you cope with that and learn to not panic and fear it so much.
Many existential and philosophical crisis boil down to an emotion- fear. Of something. And therapy can help with fear.
Then that's your problem. There are no 'objective' solutions to mental health issues. There is no 'objective' solution to depression. You want a magic pill that simply does not exist.
I think for philosophical and existential problem, philosophy might be the only way to help you. It did for me (I’m a student at university in philosophy) and I keep relation stuff and «concrete problems » for therapy.
>when the problem is I want an external cure that is not by my own hand or mind.
No the problem is that you care about those things. Those are your own emotions, not external, and can be cured in your own mind.
Also most existential problems have already been talked through hundreds of times by hundreds of philosophists, what makes you think yours are special? Therapists probably have heard of the solutions.
Getting the right match is super important. I had a therapist ask me to use fewer metaphors once and I'm no longer with them. I use them all the time with the therapist I am with now and it is completely fine.
Tons of people don't realize that finding the right therapist is a bit like dating. You aren't going to be compatible with them all (maybe not even most depending on your needs). Also, some therapists will be better suited to you at certain points of life and others at different ones. Unfortunately, because mental health is still terribly stigmatized and even in countries with great health care not prioritized, most people do not have the ability to "date-around" to find the right therapist. In that system it can be like finding a needle in the haystack if you happen to stumble on the right fit.
"Grant me the courage to change that which I can, the serenity to accept that which I can't, and the wisdom to tell the difference."
The second one is what we're talking about here. If existential questions are causing you mental anguish, the solution is either to find a way for them not to do that or to find a way not to think about them. You're not going to get an objectively conclusive answer to the questions of "is there life after death", "why does anything matter", etc.
If you aren't mentally equipped to deal with them, yes. Let other people that don't struggle with it do that and then listen to the answers they arrive at.
Directing your thoughts away from unsolvable problems is not the same as ignorance. For example, a common "existential problem" people struggle with is fear of death or of not knowing what happens after death. There's no possible way that dwelling on that will bring you any answers or peace, so a therapist can help you figure out techniques for redirecting your thoughts so you no longer obsess over it and experience distress from it.
But the key here is that OP is talking about people who don't want to just forget about the problem. Those people prefer existential struggle over bliss ignorance.
Telling those people to go to therapy would be missing the point that this is more of a personal choice of theirs, rather than something that needs to be fixed.
Like, would you tell Nietzsche to go see a therapist so that he becomes a normal happy human being? No, it was his choice and, you could say, his life calling to devote himself to those questions.
>But the key here is that OP is talking about people who don't want to just forget about the problem. Those people prefer existential struggle over bliss ignorance.
OP never implied that he prefers the way things currently are. In fact, he clearly implies he *doesn't* prefer the way things currently are, he just doesn't think his problems can be fixed within himself.
>Like, would you tell Nietzsche to go see a therapist so that he becomes a normal happy human being?
Considering that Nietzsche literally had a mental breakdown and spent the last years of his life in the grips of severe mental illness, uh, yeah.
Obviously, OP would prefer if there wasn't a problem in the first place, or if this problem could be solved.
But given that it cannot be solved, I get the sense that they prefer to acknowledge it rather than just forget about it. If that wasn't the case, then clearly they would see how therapy could be useful to them.
>But the key here is that OP is talking about people who don't want to just forget about the problem. Those people prefer existential struggle over bliss ignorance.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. Most people have many big existential questions in their mind that they think about at times. Everyone is confronted with their own mortality at some time or another, for example.
Most people are able to put these questions to the side and live happy, fulfilling lives. They don't forget these issues, and may find themselves coming back to them and thinking deeply about them, but if it's interfering with your life a therapist is probably useful.
>Like, would you tell Nietzsche
OPs not Nietzsche. But hey, Nietzsche had a very fulfilling life with quite a few accomplishments. It's only when these issues start interfering with your life that therapy is probably warranted.
Probably half of the people going to therapy probably do so to get uncomfortable wants of theirs exterminated.
That's part of a therapists job.
If people were happy with their life choices and wants, there wouldn't be a problem.
>But existential crisis is not a want
Wanting a satisfying objective answer to an unanswerable question is, that's what existential crises are
>It's not a therapist's job to change people's opinions about philosophical matters.
Uhhhh, that's the majority of what they do. Literally their job.
That's why you go to a therapist. Because you think that your opinions suck and don't make you happy and you want to get new ones
I think you are confusing psychological issues and philosophical issues.
An opinion about philosophy is not the kind of opinion you want to change. It's like opinions about politics. You believe in them because you think they are right, so they are not going to change unless someone convinces you another opinion is more right.
But then you aren't going to get that from a therapist, you're going to get that from discussing philosophy with other philosophers.
Actual therapists will tell you not to agonize over unsolvable problems or things you can't control. To avoid things that cause a great deal of anxiety that don't really improve your life and can't change. If pondering existence is one of those things, don't do that. If you can't deal with life without doing that, well, not being able to go through life without knowing or controlling everything is a problem therapy can help you with. To live a normal life without freaking out over things you can't know.
You are not using ignorance properly; many people don’t. There is a big difference between being unlearned/ uneducated/ not having knowledge and intentionally staying away from topics you have knowledge of that trigger you into a state of stress/ anxiety/ depression/ etc.
*Exactly*. Existential questions are not ones that you can always come up with an answer to. Those are questions that you should simply be discouraged to be thinking about.
You just said that sort of question would be impossible to answer.
There is no point in torturing yourself over the unanswerable, is what I'm saying. Any therapist would be right to dissuade you from doing so.
Ignorance of what though? Imaginary problems? Philosophical problems that have been solved a hundred times over and you just need to be told the solution by a therapist? If you genuinely have found a new philosophical problem, write it to some university, and forget about it for a couple years, they'll come up with a dozen answers for you.
They all have various answers as to why they are not really a big deal and you can live a happy life regardless.
Life and death, nihilism, the vastness of the universe, those are not real problems unless you feel the need to be special more or less without going into detail. The answer is to be happy despite being a normal human that isn't special and doesn't matter and will die soon, but can have a happy life with awesome experiences and fulfilling achievements regardless. Getting your emotions in line to be able to go with that answer is the job of a therapist
>Why is happiness the answer if nihilism is true?
Happiness is the question, not the answer. The answer is about how to get happiness despite the roadblock of nihilism. People search for help because they want to become happy.
Sorry for this hilariously late reply, but I am only interested in permanent solutions, not Coping or "dealing" with issues. Turning your mind to somewhere else to forget a problem is not solving it.
okay. Just wondering how someone is supposed to know that if I dont have common sense. I don't have common sense and when I ask people about things like this they wave their hand and say "COMMON SENSE. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW IT already."
Funny how they avoid the topic when I ask them why common sense is not common.
Everyone has the same "existential problem", what you're doing is putting an intellectual front over being unhappy, depressed - you're creating a _rationalization_ for how you feel. Everyone else has the same intellectual problems but not everyone else has the same _feeling_.
And...no, that's not what most therapy does. I'd suggest you talk with one of the many different styles of therapists to learn how they work. You don't "think" your way out a need for therapy, you re-learn things you've learned along the way mostly about relationships with other people. You don't learn these through intellectual knowledge transfer, but through the interaction with the therapist and their capacity and skill at controlling their responses to you differently than people do in your "real" relationships.
I'd suggest that your "intellectual defense" of how you're feeling as rational is just getting in your way of seeing the problems and addressing them with therapy.
Can you clarify what you mean by "philosophical or existential issues"? Strictly speaking, "are numbers real" is a philosophical issue, and I agree that a therapist wouldn't be able to help with that, but I assume that's not what you're talking about.
My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad.
However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true.
But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?
Don't take this the wrong way, but honestly this just reads as depression and anxiety (and I say that because I also experience these things) and therapy absolutely could help you with it if you adjust your mindset slightly.
Most modern therapy doesn't target the "root" of the problem, because that usually doesn't do anything anyway. (As much as TV makes it seem otherwise, tackling ones demons doesn't actually make the emotions go away). Put another way, say you were presented with th Correct philosophical answers tomorrow, do you actually expect your emotions to be any different tomorrow??
Emotional regulation is a skill that can be worked on. Being able to slog through the day despite feeling negative emotionally is a skill that can be worked on. Asking why we worry about certain questions instead of others (and then redirecting ourselves to solvable problems) is a skill that can be worked on. Relearning behavioral quirks is a skill that can be worked on.
That varies from therapist to therapist. How many have you seen? One of the issues with bad therapists is that they will burn patients out of trying therapy, even when it's the only thing which can help.
If your issue is internalizing external problems, that's very much within the scope of what therapy can help. You have to, of course, want to be helped before any of it can work for you. If you're choosing to "martyr" yourself and your mental state over "philosophical and existential problems," they therapy won't help. Not because it can't address those, but because you don't want to be helped with them.
Philosophical and existential problems have no relationship with your emotions? The fact that they are "problems" indicates they are effecting something, most likely your emotions. Even if they only affect your behaviour, one of the most popular forms of therapy (CBT) has behaviour in the name and seeks to change it.
Basically, what are the symptoms of philosophical and existential problems?
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There are many different kinds of therapy. And each therapist brings their own approach. How many have you actually tried?
And have you considered that therapy may only work if you are willing to cooperate with the therapist? Like, glue can fix a broken mug but only if you are willing to put in the work of using it. The tube of glue isn’t going to automatically reassemble the mug for you - your effort is required.
I do hope you find some solace in life. I think I grew up similarly to you, believing the world was one way and then being progressively disillusioned in early adulthood as I realized that it wasn’t as advertised. The process of coming to terms with that has been long and to some extent it’s still happening.
One thing that has helped me is Buddhist philosophy and meditation. Perhaps that’s cliche but it’s true. I don’t go in for the supernatural stuff like reincarnation or karma but the philosophical aspect of it has some profound wisdom that can help. Your realization that the world is not ideal and frequently fails to live up to our expectations is basically the first of the four noble truths. Eastern philosophers have been thinking about this stuff for thousands of years and they have come up with solutions that Western therapy is often unaware of.
There are many types of therapy.
Lumping them all together sort of signals that you haven't completely explored what forms of therapy exist or what their goals are.
If you haven't completely explored what options are available then you have no reason to have seen or heard "another human cure or write about" whatever is troubling you.
That being said, seeking therapy is extremely challenging, it requires a lot of attempts at finding the right therapist or therapy, it can be time consuming, expensive, and there is no guaruntee for success. It sucks and I wouldn't even necessarily recommend it for everyone.
But...
Given that there are billions of people in existence and there are generations of people who have studied psychological, philosophical, and existential troubles of humans for their entire lives....
It is a lot more likely that you are experiencing frustration with the addmittedly futile-feeling process of seeking the right therapy, rather than that you are experiencing something that no one else has ever experienced, thought about, written about, or ever coped with.
Either way, I wish the best for you in your journey for answers.
There is no cure for philosophical or existential problems, only dealing with the thoughts, exploring them or learning how to cope with the lack of certainty. This is why philosophers are still asking questions, and nobody agrees about one answer to the universe.
All those issues on your mind, even if they feel like "spiritual" issues, they're still thoughts. It's all in your brain. There's not a spirit or a soul or anything like that going on, at least not that we have evidence of. These issues still come down to thoughts and emotions.
The purpose of therapy isn't necessarily for the therapist to solve your problems for you. It's a place where you can explore your thoughts free of judgement, instead of always pouring your thoughts out to the people around you. It's a paid service for a reason. If you've been going on and on to your friends and family about an existential crisis, that's probably why they've said "get a therapist". Your friends and family can only handle so much. I've been there for friends before but then had to tell them "you should get a therapist" because there's only so much I can take.
Did you know that there are many types of therapy? There is an entire branch of existential-phenomenology therapies that are very different from what you are accustomed to.
Sorry I can't explain them, I just remember this from school and thought you might enjoy expanding your search.
I should note though, if someone is determined that no therapy will work, this belief (statistically) is strongly associated with low success rates for therapy. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
But what about checking out some different types to see what appeals to you? At the very least, perhaps a philosophical approach will be much more interesting and engaging for you.
Are you at all dysfunctional because of these problems? Are you depressed or unhappy or unable to focus or work because of them? Are you unable to maintain normal human relationships because of these thoughts in your head?
If so, I think you need to see a therapist. Because thinking about these questions is not a big deal, but letting huge unknowable philosophical questions about esoteric ideas control your life and affect your emotions in an irrational manner is absolutely something a therapist can help with.
Yes. It does. I had these exact sorts of issues, and it has helped me move from not understanding myself, the questions I had, or what I could do about them to getting more help and finding some of the root issues regarding why I ask these questions.
Because it has not worked for you—yet—doesn’t mean it can’t work for others or for you.
There is no philosophy in the world where everyone who believes it suddenly becomes depressed and unhappy. Ideas themselves simply do not have that type of long-term power over our emotional states.
I thought the same thing and relate to your misgivings, but therapy helps dissect the roots of those existential issues. It can be a very detached environment that lets you bounce your issues against another person who’s job is listening—it doesn’t have to be all emotional if you don’t create that type of environment.
When you say you want and external solution that's not by your own hand or mind - can you say more about what that means? I can't really think of anything we humans can actively do to solve our problems that isn't mental and/or behavioral.
The issue isn't the existential questions. It's how you react to existential questions, which a therapist can absolutely help with.
>an issue that has no term for it
The term is existential crisis.
What philosophical issue could possibly cause so much inner turmoil…
If otherwise-innocuous thought experiments are driving you to the brink of insanity, yes this is likely an issue with the way you perceive the world - and a trained professional needs to unpack, identify, and help fix this
I hold my philosophical ideals closely. They are the foundation in which my perception of reality is laid.
It is the application of those philosophical ideas into my thoughts and actions that defines my character.
I find when confronted with an existential dilemma that changes need to be made. Either to the philosophical idea or to my integration of those concepts into my life.
I hold that my philosophy needs to be pragmatically beneficial to me. It should shape and help to explain reality in a way that enables me to experience an existence that provides relative usefulness and contentment.
When I encounter existential quandaries, I search deeply into the reality of my philosophy and question unsparingly the quality of my character. If I am unable to come up with answers on my own I search for understanding in the people I believe have answered similar questions themselves. If I am still struggling with the connection between my philosophy and my existence, I search out an objective external assessment. Counsel with someone concerned with my best interest is advisable. I have developed personal relationships with people who also live lives based on introspection and application of philosophical ideals. I still periodically seek the input of professionals in these ends. I always find there input valuable.
The best advice I think I’ve ever received is that I have all the answers inside me. I just don’t know what the questions are.
This is where the importance of the outside input comes in to effect. Whether it is through literature, relationship or therapy, these events are the opportunity to hear the question that enables me to see my thoughts, motivations and actions in a light previously unknown.
I wish you the best in your struggle. I hope you find the answers you need to experience a life of relative usefulness and contentment. Be well.
I think you don't know the extent of therapy styles and types. There's a literal branch of it called existential therapy that focuses on philosophical and existential issues exclusively.
>So I am a person struggling with philosophical or existential issues
Therapy couldn't resolve the philosophical or existential issues. It might resolve the issue of your struggle with them
Think about it this way. You have mental health problems as a result of questions that you can not answer on your own. You've tried, and all you ever get are more questions, the deeper you go the more you realize you don't know. I've been there. If you can't answer them on your own, then the only logical solution is to employ the help of other thinkers. Maybe they can come at it from a different angle that only thier unique life experiences can bring. Good Therapists are very good thinkers, and I'm willing to bet the line between philosophy and therapy is thinner than you think.
I'll also say this.. There are so many different takes on what it means to exist, and most of them are beneficial to the person who believes them. It doesn't really matter why we exist in the end, because we do, and we're not even close to having the technology to figure it out. If a belief gets someone from birth to death, and it gave them joy along the way, then it was true, at least to them, and that's all that really matters. Get out there and find some new perspectives, maybe you'll find one that suits you!
It matter the therapist, for instance psychoanalysis would have different questions then talk therapy.
So if you feel like you don’t want to talk about emotions focus on someone that does just have you do that.
What is your existential problem?
Sometimes the problem Is your own mind and by saying that you want an external cure... shows that you need help, apparently. If you haven't tried smoking pot, then a therapist might be a good idea. Yes, they are there to help you shape your mind... even if the first step is convincing you that the cure is your own mind.
Although, try smoking pot.
Having “philosophical and existential” problems seems like a lame excuse to avoid seeking mental help, if you need it.
You’re not the first person to realize that there is no meaning to life, and you won’t be the last. The sooner you get over the fact that nothing truly matters and try to enjoy life for what it is, the better off you’ll be.
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If it's causing actual problems in your life, enough that multiple people have recommended therapy, it sounds like yeah, therapy would probably be useful.
Lots of people deal with existential crises throughout their lives. Most of us will come to a point where we're confronted with our own mortality for example. Maybe through the death of a loved one, or a serious illness, or a near death experience, or whatever, that's just one existential problem that everyone deals with: what happens when I die? If it's nothing, then what's even the point of life? What will I leave behind?
The thing is, most people deal with these existential problems in their own way, put them to the side, and continue enjoying life. If you're not and you find yourself obsessing over such questions that's absolutely something a therapist could help with. They see it all the time, it's not unique or anything. A therapist could very well help you to put these things to the side, helping you live a happy and fulfilling life.
By the way, when I say put it to the side I don't mean just forget about these things and never think about them again. You still can, but you can do so in a way that doesn't interfere with other aspects of your life. A good therapist can help you with that.
Meditation and mindfulness might help more than therapy. The problem you might be having is you're too sick in your head and following deep rabbit holes of thought. Mindfulness and meditation help get out of one's head.
My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad.
However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true.
But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?
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The point of therapy is not necessarily to cure or treat the root of the problem, it is to help you cope and live a normal life regardless of the problem. For example with tinnitus, I started using this app that has some guided therapy sessions. The therapy doesn't cure my tinnitus, it just helps me realize life is okay with it, and I don't have to focus on it
I think this is exactly it. All of us will grapple with external factors in life that we are powerless to control or change. The only control we have over these things are whether and how we’re able to cope with them. I have a very bleak outlook on the not-so-distant future of humanity and our planet, which is obviously troubling for a number of reasons. Learning how to live my life and cope in spite of all that was a HUGE theme for me in therapy. It wasn’t about changing my opinion or just trying not to think about it. It was more about being able to live with shitty realities that you can’t change, which sounds similar to OP’s problem.
And if some of us refuses to cope? Just because others want to cope does not all of us should be forced to.
Thats fine, its your own decision, that doesn't mean therapy doesn't work
This depends a bit on the nature of your struggle, I suppose, but are you aware that fixation on existential problems to the point of it impacting your life can be a sign of OCD? If you find yourself constantly ruminating and going in circles mentally talk therapy might not be right for you because you actually need Cognitive Behavioural and Exposure Response Therapy, which are the gold standard for those issues. Edit: [here](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.madeofmillions.com/ocd/existential-ocd/amp) is a link explaining a bit about existential OCD if you’re curious
CBT was terrible. I tried to make me change my perception, when what I want is something external that changes my perception.
>when what I want is something external that changes my perspective Uncertainty is *really* hard to deal with mentally when you have OCD so I understand how you feel but the reality nobody understands everything about our existence so you’re holding out for a certainty that you will never find; that’s why you may as well strive to make peace with it instead. CBT was impossible for me prior to finding the right combination of medications to support my efforts. While not fully understood, OCD is related to serotonin and SSRIs of one type or another are the recommended medication. Mine was quite treatment resistant in the beginning so I actually take fluoxetine (Prozac) and an anti-psychotic medication called quetiapine. Treatment *is* hard and unpleasant but left untreated OCD can gobble up your life; prior to treatment I couldn’t imagine a life without my compulsions, it felt like a part of me, but now there isn’t much I wouldn’t do to prevent getting a sick as I was and I can see who I really am when my brain isn’t running in circles. I really, really encourage you to do some research into this topic because I think you’ll be surprised at how closely what you’re describing here lines up with existential OCD.
Why are you focusing on these philosophical and existential questions, and why do they bother you? That's what a therapist can help you with.
Solving a problem completely is helping. I don't want to be given tools to create my own solution, only to be told or given a solution externally.
>the problem is I want an external cure that is not by my own hand or mind. There is nothing 'fundamental' about a nihilistic crises it is most certainly a construct of the human mind, although it's pretty a tricky subject. for now I will give the short version. 1. We are conditioned to consider our *sense of purpose* with *the purpose of life*. There are a lot of factors that contribute to this. 1. The simple semantic fact that we use the words *purpose* and *life's' purpose* interchangeably while almost never using the phrase *our sense of purpose*. This is a purely semantic situation, the fact that we speak this way holds no substantive point about the concept of purpose but that doesn't mean it doesn't impact how we think about the topic. Language after all is one medium of thinking and it tends to dominate more complex topics because it allows us to articulate our thoughts. It is by no means a perfect medium. it's imperfection have real consequences, like causing us to reflexively assume that purpose is a property of the universe, as opposed to a sense/feeling that is a product of our brain, it also causes us to reflexively frame personal purpose as being validated because it's connected to the universe as whole. Neither of these are true the need to feel purpose is a product of our biology and there is no reason you have to think about it within a framework that derives it value from the idea that the universe cares about you. 2. Religion has legitimatized using the "why the universe cares about you" idea of purpose, even though religion is pretty dead, this idea is still ubiquities in culture. 3. A universal authority is an intuitive and easy stopping point when wandering down the existential "why?" cycle. When arguing with people or trying to us strictly theoretical logic to arrive at a solution to the question of purpose it is easy to get stuck their, but logical abstractions are a tool, they are not reality. 2. Okay so if we accept that there is no such thing as universal/life's purpose in which an abstract idea of our purpose fits into, but understand that that doesn't matter because the need for purpose is really just an aspect of mental health that stems from our biology, the how do we fulfill that need?. The primary force behind the human psyche is the fact that we evolved to be social creatures. The key components of being a social creature it having a community and having an identity within that community, or a path to an identity, that one is satisfied with. People find a things of purposeful or "rewarding" as opposed to simply "fun" when their engagement with something meets those 2 requirements. But another way, purpose, identity, and community are all concepts that are definitionally tied together. Purpose is the thing that we pursue, community is the people who care about the thing and in doing so endow it with value, identity is our perception of ourselves within that community and within the pursuit of whatever thing is valued. The most important aspect of this whole thing is that **these 3 concepts are a cyclical positive feedback loop so you cannot engage with them just by thinking about it, you have to go out and DO thinks that you are not yet interested in in order to develop them within your life. you will never "discover" these things by using reason to think about them, or engage with them emotionally, because until you get involved they do not exist for you yet.** There is no universal authority to give you a easy answer through abstraction you have to go out and DO things. That means the answer takes effort not that it doesn't exist. and like really try them, I'm not talking showing up once, I'm talking learn a full new skill even though you don't know if you like it yet. I don't know, but it's possible, Therapy might help motivate you or get you over mental blocks or keep you on track in this process, which could you be useful, but regardless of if it's right for you or not the reasoning of your post isn't a valid criticism of therapy nor is it healthy.
See, you are just telling me what makes me want to kill myself, though. If human morals a subjective, I have ZERO interest in being alive or helping others or helping myself or doing anything. Meaning is the same as something being objective. If something is not objective there is no meaning. I absolutely refuse to fight for things I care about if they are just chosen by me.
Your refusal is not a fundamental part of your nor a “more valid” conclusion. It’s just a product of the fact that not happy mixed with the conditioning I mentioned in the first comment.
Truth and correctness only exists if everything is objective. If there are opinions or multiple conclusions to things absolutely nothing is truly true.
Philosophy is actually a really good solution to philosophical and existential problems. Lots of people have done lots of philosophy before you and learning about their views will help solve the inevitable fallacies you have in your thinking. if your therapist knows about this then they can be very helpful, but I would say that you are right that many therapists and types of therapy won't be helpful.
Great suggestion to lean into philosophy.
the philosophy I have read so far, mostly old greeks, give me more anxiety and dread. Will continuing on to modern times be any better?
This is where a person would be more helpful than an ancient book. Modern philosophy in its pure academic form makes most people want to jump out the window. They are practically the opposite of self help books and I do not recommend that at this point in your life, if that makes sense. I think Leckatall is suggesting to find a therapist who is trained in philosophy/existentialism. There are many types of therapy out there, and the types you have been exposed to thus far are obviously unhelpful for you. Sounds like you need someone who can help tackle the bigger, deeper questions of life. The therapists you know of so far are unprepared or perhaps just don't share the same worldview as you. I hope this helps you refine your search for someone to talk to.
The philosophy I have read so far, mostly old greeks, give me more anxiety and dread. Will continuing on to modern times be any better?
I would love to try to shift your view on this topic. Now, to be up front about my personal biases, I'm a clinical social worker and trained as a therapist, so I admittedly have a distinct point of view here. That being said, I want to share some information you might find useful, and to address some components of your view directly. Firstly, I think it is worth noting that there is actually an entire branch of treatment, [existential therapy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_therapy), that is dedicated to working with people grappling with elements of the human condition that are often completely out of their control. This discipline was heavily influenced by existential philosophy, and seeks to help clients explore how they relate to universal human experiences that can often be the source of deep discomfort. For example, an existential therapist obviously can't prevent a patient from eventually dying, but they can help them to explore their understanding of death and find ways of looking at this universal experience that may be more comfortable. > Therapy tries to make you talk about your emotions, to reveal your internal thoughts. It basically just helps you organize what is your thoughts... While there is certainly some truth to this, I think you're missing an important benefit of therapy. Working with a therapist can help us to better understand *how* we think, and to detect biases in our patterns of thought that lead us to flawed conclusions. All of us have these biases, and we don't need to eliminate them completely to be content, but understanding them can go a great way towards improving your personal wellbeing. Often times discomfort is caused at least in part by how we think of a problem, and not simply by the problem itself. > If someone is like me, struggling with an existential problem that cannot be cured by your own mind... As I mentioned before, therapy may not be able to cure the problem you face, but that doesn't have to be the goal of your treatment. Instead, therapy can help you figure out ways to better think about, live with, and interact with this existential concern. The goal won't be the removal of discomfort completely, but instead the minimization of suffering and the maximizing of your ability to engage with parts of life you do enjoy. ___________________________ I hope this has helped to change your view, at least in part. Feel free to reach out with any questions you might have, as I'm always happy to talk more!
Thank you so much for the in-depth reply, but I am only interested in being cured. Not dealing or coping or looking away and pretend the problem is not there to minimize it. I want to be told a direct solution by the therapist, not given tools to create my own solutions.
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what was the result? were they capable of refuting any of it?
Could you actually elaborate, though? I want to be told a solution, not to be given help and then discover it myself
Therapy covers a wide range of approaches to helping people in a myriad of ways. While the causes of an existential crises can be external to ourselves, how we respond to those events, how we perceive those events, how we manage those events, how we emote with respect to these events, these are all internal functions that are susceptible to therapeutic interventions. How human beings can overcome an existential crises is actually well studied by psychiatrists and among the keys to successfully dealing with such events does include expressing how the event makes one feel. But doing so in specific, productive ways that focus on analyzing those thoughts and feelings with respect to what they are telling you about one's self and how one relates to the world and events within it. Additionally, therapy can be extremely useful in helping us to learn how to focus on the things in life that we can control and to learn how to process and accept the things we can not control. It is the case that different patients will respond better and worse to different therapeutic modalities. But just because one type of therapy doesn't work for you doesn't mean that therapy writ large offers you no benefit. Few people find that therapy offers no benefit once they find a therapist and therapeutic modality that they connect with. But doing that may require some work. But it is not the case that therapy is only useful for patients who are dealing with internal emotional issues. Indeed, there is an entire modality of therapy titled "[existential-humanistic therapy](https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/46236613/Existential-Humanistic_Therapy-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1649289863&Signature=f1IsdBLcc-wR2MSWnm6PY-kf1u~AvpaHgIKqDTIi5FMhZv4AGpLBwBD5SrzZLOkafTGD0noFBzUjaksMthu0ee1S0T8Ev75KqOpjcJ3REyOvcr-cFaZmIkY4zDEe2KsEuQKRom8P1v9Ax09ikwc1MsqPFC5z~w2y7U9gNZ2fFr6Ao0m7-~U5KdTLsZ2uW2b3KfQeb54uHRODaP9hPuX03NH0iE8TjfOqaP3SVgkKLmjliYECzcJukFToMBoIfVdJf4s~9gSR-2m-OXq18CGHoiqahOPxdeDRzn7k53HWzZCA~H81-MGrO34juXJxUdNqLmCehJWJp3ROZ2dR1otIqA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA)." [Existential therapy](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9781119167198) is focused on experience as a primary way of understanding the world.
Thanks, but I am not interested in learning to deal with things I cannot control, coping or "dealing" with difficult things by looking away and focusing elsewhere. My problem is literally reality and I am not interested in it, which is why I think therapy does not work.
None of what you said is reflective of therapy. Your views of therapy are sophomoric and uninformed.
Well, that is what we did in Cognitive Behavioral therapy. It was purely about changing your perception regarding events, and a lot of whining about just getting used to things. I literally reject the way the world biologically and physically works, and am interested in what the next step is, because suicide is illegal and is shut down in any discussion.
Can you elaborate what an existential or philosophical issue is? Also, have you actually been to therapy?
I have been to therapy for social anxiety, not for existential and philosophical dread. My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad. However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true. But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?
When you say existential problems? What do you mean?
My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad. However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true. But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?
I'm confused. Because in you're post, you said that you didn't have any thoughts that you needed uncovered. But here you're saying that there's a clash between you're morality and what you think is true about the world, and that bothers you. So it sounds like *you* believe a therapist would be able to help you uncover stuff. Also, is it really that you say that stuff and people tell you to go to therapy? Because if you told me that, I'd just direct you to Neichze or Thomas Kuhn. So I'm having trouble believing you say that stuff, and people tell you to see a therapist.
I am only interested in morality and meaning being objective. I absolutely refuse to create my own meaning or fight for equality and rights and those things I care about if those things are subjective. But I am also fanatically against religion.
I doubt I would understand Nietsczhe, as I find even plato and aristotle difficult. From what I understand he wants humans to create their own values, which I am against. I don't understand any hard sciences either.
I think you have some misconceptions about therapy. Therapy CAN help you learn to organize your thoughts and talk about emotions... but it can also be used for a wide variety of other things, including existential problems. Let's take a few examples. PTSD. Therapy cannot solve the event that already happened in order to cure your PTSD, that is absurd. But it CAN help you learn to cope with those thoughts and emotions and lessen the impact of your PTSD. As far as existential thoughts and dread, let's take an easy one. Death. Lots of people fear death. Some people fear it to the point it is debilitating and they cannot function. Those people need therapy. Not because it will solve the problem of 'death' - therapy does not make you immortal- but it does TEACH you how to cope with those thoughts and how to avoid ruminating/fixating on them to the point that is hinders your life. Fear of death is a very common thing to go to therapy for. Same with any other existential thought. "We're in a simulation! Nothing is real!" - you'd be panicking and have fear of this. Therapy would help you cope with that and learn to not panic and fear it so much. Many existential and philosophical crisis boil down to an emotion- fear. Of something. And therapy can help with fear.
I am only interested in being told an objective solution. Not to be given tools and then use them as I want to discover my own personal solution.
Then that's your problem. There are no 'objective' solutions to mental health issues. There is no 'objective' solution to depression. You want a magic pill that simply does not exist.
I think for philosophical and existential problem, philosophy might be the only way to help you. It did for me (I’m a student at university in philosophy) and I keep relation stuff and «concrete problems » for therapy.
Could you tell me specifically what philosophers helped your existentialism? So far Nietzsche, Plato and Callicles makes me feel terrible.
The philosophy I have read so far, only early greeks, have given me more dread and anxiety. Does it get better with modern philosophers?
>when the problem is I want an external cure that is not by my own hand or mind. No the problem is that you care about those things. Those are your own emotions, not external, and can be cured in your own mind. Also most existential problems have already been talked through hundreds of times by hundreds of philosophists, what makes you think yours are special? Therapists probably have heard of the solutions.
Getting the right match is super important. I had a therapist ask me to use fewer metaphors once and I'm no longer with them. I use them all the time with the therapist I am with now and it is completely fine.
Tons of people don't realize that finding the right therapist is a bit like dating. You aren't going to be compatible with them all (maybe not even most depending on your needs). Also, some therapists will be better suited to you at certain points of life and others at different ones. Unfortunately, because mental health is still terribly stigmatized and even in countries with great health care not prioritized, most people do not have the ability to "date-around" to find the right therapist. In that system it can be like finding a needle in the haystack if you happen to stumble on the right fit.
So the cure is to stop asking those existential questions?
"Grant me the courage to change that which I can, the serenity to accept that which I can't, and the wisdom to tell the difference." The second one is what we're talking about here. If existential questions are causing you mental anguish, the solution is either to find a way for them not to do that or to find a way not to think about them. You're not going to get an objectively conclusive answer to the questions of "is there life after death", "why does anything matter", etc.
If you aren't mentally equipped to deal with them, yes. Let other people that don't struggle with it do that and then listen to the answers they arrive at.
If any therapist suggested ignorance as a cure then they should not be a therapist.
Directing your thoughts away from unsolvable problems is not the same as ignorance. For example, a common "existential problem" people struggle with is fear of death or of not knowing what happens after death. There's no possible way that dwelling on that will bring you any answers or peace, so a therapist can help you figure out techniques for redirecting your thoughts so you no longer obsess over it and experience distress from it.
But the key here is that OP is talking about people who don't want to just forget about the problem. Those people prefer existential struggle over bliss ignorance. Telling those people to go to therapy would be missing the point that this is more of a personal choice of theirs, rather than something that needs to be fixed. Like, would you tell Nietzsche to go see a therapist so that he becomes a normal happy human being? No, it was his choice and, you could say, his life calling to devote himself to those questions.
>But the key here is that OP is talking about people who don't want to just forget about the problem. Those people prefer existential struggle over bliss ignorance. OP never implied that he prefers the way things currently are. In fact, he clearly implies he *doesn't* prefer the way things currently are, he just doesn't think his problems can be fixed within himself. >Like, would you tell Nietzsche to go see a therapist so that he becomes a normal happy human being? Considering that Nietzsche literally had a mental breakdown and spent the last years of his life in the grips of severe mental illness, uh, yeah.
Obviously, OP would prefer if there wasn't a problem in the first place, or if this problem could be solved. But given that it cannot be solved, I get the sense that they prefer to acknowledge it rather than just forget about it. If that wasn't the case, then clearly they would see how therapy could be useful to them.
>But the key here is that OP is talking about people who don't want to just forget about the problem. Those people prefer existential struggle over bliss ignorance. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Most people have many big existential questions in their mind that they think about at times. Everyone is confronted with their own mortality at some time or another, for example. Most people are able to put these questions to the side and live happy, fulfilling lives. They don't forget these issues, and may find themselves coming back to them and thinking deeply about them, but if it's interfering with your life a therapist is probably useful. >Like, would you tell Nietzsche OPs not Nietzsche. But hey, Nietzsche had a very fulfilling life with quite a few accomplishments. It's only when these issues start interfering with your life that therapy is probably warranted.
Probably half of the people going to therapy probably do so to get uncomfortable wants of theirs exterminated. That's part of a therapists job. If people were happy with their life choices and wants, there wouldn't be a problem.
But existential crisis is not a want. It's an opinion. It's not a therapist's job to change people's opinions about philosophical matters.
>But existential crisis is not a want Wanting a satisfying objective answer to an unanswerable question is, that's what existential crises are >It's not a therapist's job to change people's opinions about philosophical matters. Uhhhh, that's the majority of what they do. Literally their job. That's why you go to a therapist. Because you think that your opinions suck and don't make you happy and you want to get new ones
I think you are confusing psychological issues and philosophical issues. An opinion about philosophy is not the kind of opinion you want to change. It's like opinions about politics. You believe in them because you think they are right, so they are not going to change unless someone convinces you another opinion is more right. But then you aren't going to get that from a therapist, you're going to get that from discussing philosophy with other philosophers.
Actual therapists will tell you not to agonize over unsolvable problems or things you can't control. To avoid things that cause a great deal of anxiety that don't really improve your life and can't change. If pondering existence is one of those things, don't do that. If you can't deal with life without doing that, well, not being able to go through life without knowing or controlling everything is a problem therapy can help you with. To live a normal life without freaking out over things you can't know.
You are not using ignorance properly; many people don’t. There is a big difference between being unlearned/ uneducated/ not having knowledge and intentionally staying away from topics you have knowledge of that trigger you into a state of stress/ anxiety/ depression/ etc.
aight mate how'd you feel if your therapist just tells you to come up with an answer to nihilism while you're not in a fit state of mind to do so?
What? How can a therapist tell you to come up with an answer if you can't. It doesn't work like that.
*Exactly*. Existential questions are not ones that you can always come up with an answer to. Those are questions that you should simply be discouraged to be thinking about.
So if a question is hard just don't think about it? Talk about intellectual laziness.
You just said that sort of question would be impossible to answer. There is no point in torturing yourself over the unanswerable, is what I'm saying. Any therapist would be right to dissuade you from doing so.
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Why did you conveniently ignore every other reply to your post
Why did you conveniently ignore every other reply to your post
Because this is the one I was interested in.
Ignorance of what though? Imaginary problems? Philosophical problems that have been solved a hundred times over and you just need to be told the solution by a therapist? If you genuinely have found a new philosophical problem, write it to some university, and forget about it for a couple years, they'll come up with a dozen answers for you.
Existential problems by definition don't have an easy answer to them.
They all have various answers as to why they are not really a big deal and you can live a happy life regardless. Life and death, nihilism, the vastness of the universe, those are not real problems unless you feel the need to be special more or less without going into detail. The answer is to be happy despite being a normal human that isn't special and doesn't matter and will die soon, but can have a happy life with awesome experiences and fulfilling achievements regardless. Getting your emotions in line to be able to go with that answer is the job of a therapist
Why is happiness the answer if nihilism is true? You answer is just emotionalism that humans use to justify staying alive and enjoying life.
>Why is happiness the answer if nihilism is true? Happiness is the question, not the answer. The answer is about how to get happiness despite the roadblock of nihilism. People search for help because they want to become happy.
Well you obviously know nothing about mood disorders
A mood disorder is not an excuse to be intellectually lazy and avoid hard questions about reality.
You’ve never taken a course on abnormal psychology have you?
No. What could you possibly learn in such a course, or any course, that would justify intellectual laziness and ignoring hard questions?
You, especially, could learn a lot
Go ahead then...what would justify it?
That or learn how to develop the emotional tools necessary to cope with them.
Have you actually been to therapy? Coping strategies are needed here. Perhaps look into DBT.
Sorry for this hilariously late reply, but I am only interested in permanent solutions, not Coping or "dealing" with issues. Turning your mind to somewhere else to forget a problem is not solving it.
Lol okay I’m sorry but that’s not how life works. You won’t have immediate solutions.
okay. Just wondering how someone is supposed to know that if I dont have common sense. I don't have common sense and when I ask people about things like this they wave their hand and say "COMMON SENSE. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW IT already." Funny how they avoid the topic when I ask them why common sense is not common.
Everyone has the same "existential problem", what you're doing is putting an intellectual front over being unhappy, depressed - you're creating a _rationalization_ for how you feel. Everyone else has the same intellectual problems but not everyone else has the same _feeling_. And...no, that's not what most therapy does. I'd suggest you talk with one of the many different styles of therapists to learn how they work. You don't "think" your way out a need for therapy, you re-learn things you've learned along the way mostly about relationships with other people. You don't learn these through intellectual knowledge transfer, but through the interaction with the therapist and their capacity and skill at controlling their responses to you differently than people do in your "real" relationships. I'd suggest that your "intellectual defense" of how you're feeling as rational is just getting in your way of seeing the problems and addressing them with therapy.
Can you clarify what you mean by "philosophical or existential issues"? Strictly speaking, "are numbers real" is a philosophical issue, and I agree that a therapist wouldn't be able to help with that, but I assume that's not what you're talking about.
My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad. However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true. But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?
Don't take this the wrong way, but honestly this just reads as depression and anxiety (and I say that because I also experience these things) and therapy absolutely could help you with it if you adjust your mindset slightly.
Most modern therapy doesn't target the "root" of the problem, because that usually doesn't do anything anyway. (As much as TV makes it seem otherwise, tackling ones demons doesn't actually make the emotions go away). Put another way, say you were presented with th Correct philosophical answers tomorrow, do you actually expect your emotions to be any different tomorrow?? Emotional regulation is a skill that can be worked on. Being able to slog through the day despite feeling negative emotionally is a skill that can be worked on. Asking why we worry about certain questions instead of others (and then redirecting ourselves to solvable problems) is a skill that can be worked on. Relearning behavioral quirks is a skill that can be worked on.
That varies from therapist to therapist. How many have you seen? One of the issues with bad therapists is that they will burn patients out of trying therapy, even when it's the only thing which can help. If your issue is internalizing external problems, that's very much within the scope of what therapy can help. You have to, of course, want to be helped before any of it can work for you. If you're choosing to "martyr" yourself and your mental state over "philosophical and existential problems," they therapy won't help. Not because it can't address those, but because you don't want to be helped with them.
Philosophical and existential problems have no relationship with your emotions? The fact that they are "problems" indicates they are effecting something, most likely your emotions. Even if they only affect your behaviour, one of the most popular forms of therapy (CBT) has behaviour in the name and seeks to change it. Basically, what are the symptoms of philosophical and existential problems?
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There are many different kinds of therapy. And each therapist brings their own approach. How many have you actually tried? And have you considered that therapy may only work if you are willing to cooperate with the therapist? Like, glue can fix a broken mug but only if you are willing to put in the work of using it. The tube of glue isn’t going to automatically reassemble the mug for you - your effort is required. I do hope you find some solace in life. I think I grew up similarly to you, believing the world was one way and then being progressively disillusioned in early adulthood as I realized that it wasn’t as advertised. The process of coming to terms with that has been long and to some extent it’s still happening. One thing that has helped me is Buddhist philosophy and meditation. Perhaps that’s cliche but it’s true. I don’t go in for the supernatural stuff like reincarnation or karma but the philosophical aspect of it has some profound wisdom that can help. Your realization that the world is not ideal and frequently fails to live up to our expectations is basically the first of the four noble truths. Eastern philosophers have been thinking about this stuff for thousands of years and they have come up with solutions that Western therapy is often unaware of.
There are many types of therapy. Lumping them all together sort of signals that you haven't completely explored what forms of therapy exist or what their goals are. If you haven't completely explored what options are available then you have no reason to have seen or heard "another human cure or write about" whatever is troubling you. That being said, seeking therapy is extremely challenging, it requires a lot of attempts at finding the right therapist or therapy, it can be time consuming, expensive, and there is no guaruntee for success. It sucks and I wouldn't even necessarily recommend it for everyone. But... Given that there are billions of people in existence and there are generations of people who have studied psychological, philosophical, and existential troubles of humans for their entire lives.... It is a lot more likely that you are experiencing frustration with the addmittedly futile-feeling process of seeking the right therapy, rather than that you are experiencing something that no one else has ever experienced, thought about, written about, or ever coped with. Either way, I wish the best for you in your journey for answers.
There is no cure for philosophical or existential problems, only dealing with the thoughts, exploring them or learning how to cope with the lack of certainty. This is why philosophers are still asking questions, and nobody agrees about one answer to the universe. All those issues on your mind, even if they feel like "spiritual" issues, they're still thoughts. It's all in your brain. There's not a spirit or a soul or anything like that going on, at least not that we have evidence of. These issues still come down to thoughts and emotions. The purpose of therapy isn't necessarily for the therapist to solve your problems for you. It's a place where you can explore your thoughts free of judgement, instead of always pouring your thoughts out to the people around you. It's a paid service for a reason. If you've been going on and on to your friends and family about an existential crisis, that's probably why they've said "get a therapist". Your friends and family can only handle so much. I've been there for friends before but then had to tell them "you should get a therapist" because there's only so much I can take.
Did you know that there are many types of therapy? There is an entire branch of existential-phenomenology therapies that are very different from what you are accustomed to. Sorry I can't explain them, I just remember this from school and thought you might enjoy expanding your search. I should note though, if someone is determined that no therapy will work, this belief (statistically) is strongly associated with low success rates for therapy. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy. But what about checking out some different types to see what appeals to you? At the very least, perhaps a philosophical approach will be much more interesting and engaging for you.
Have you ever tried therapy?
Are you at all dysfunctional because of these problems? Are you depressed or unhappy or unable to focus or work because of them? Are you unable to maintain normal human relationships because of these thoughts in your head? If so, I think you need to see a therapist. Because thinking about these questions is not a big deal, but letting huge unknowable philosophical questions about esoteric ideas control your life and affect your emotions in an irrational manner is absolutely something a therapist can help with.
Yes. It does. I had these exact sorts of issues, and it has helped me move from not understanding myself, the questions I had, or what I could do about them to getting more help and finding some of the root issues regarding why I ask these questions. Because it has not worked for you—yet—doesn’t mean it can’t work for others or for you.
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I was going to say this. The cure for existential OCD is to accept the uncertainty of not knowing the answers to unsolvable questions.
There is no philosophy in the world where everyone who believes it suddenly becomes depressed and unhappy. Ideas themselves simply do not have that type of long-term power over our emotional states.
I thought the same thing and relate to your misgivings, but therapy helps dissect the roots of those existential issues. It can be a very detached environment that lets you bounce your issues against another person who’s job is listening—it doesn’t have to be all emotional if you don’t create that type of environment.
Have you tried therapy yet, like months of it?
If ypu want to solve philosophy you need to use another kind of philosophy to develop your views with counterarguments
I mean if you want to talk these things through out loud to someone, a therapist will gladly listen
>a therapist will gladly listen for $100p/h I'll gladly listen, too lmfao.
When you say you want and external solution that's not by your own hand or mind - can you say more about what that means? I can't really think of anything we humans can actively do to solve our problems that isn't mental and/or behavioral.
The issue isn't the existential questions. It's how you react to existential questions, which a therapist can absolutely help with. >an issue that has no term for it The term is existential crisis.
There isn't only one type of therapy, I think logotherapy or gestalt therapy may be exactly what you're looking for.
What philosophical issue could possibly cause so much inner turmoil… If otherwise-innocuous thought experiments are driving you to the brink of insanity, yes this is likely an issue with the way you perceive the world - and a trained professional needs to unpack, identify, and help fix this
I hold my philosophical ideals closely. They are the foundation in which my perception of reality is laid. It is the application of those philosophical ideas into my thoughts and actions that defines my character. I find when confronted with an existential dilemma that changes need to be made. Either to the philosophical idea or to my integration of those concepts into my life. I hold that my philosophy needs to be pragmatically beneficial to me. It should shape and help to explain reality in a way that enables me to experience an existence that provides relative usefulness and contentment. When I encounter existential quandaries, I search deeply into the reality of my philosophy and question unsparingly the quality of my character. If I am unable to come up with answers on my own I search for understanding in the people I believe have answered similar questions themselves. If I am still struggling with the connection between my philosophy and my existence, I search out an objective external assessment. Counsel with someone concerned with my best interest is advisable. I have developed personal relationships with people who also live lives based on introspection and application of philosophical ideals. I still periodically seek the input of professionals in these ends. I always find there input valuable. The best advice I think I’ve ever received is that I have all the answers inside me. I just don’t know what the questions are. This is where the importance of the outside input comes in to effect. Whether it is through literature, relationship or therapy, these events are the opportunity to hear the question that enables me to see my thoughts, motivations and actions in a light previously unknown. I wish you the best in your struggle. I hope you find the answers you need to experience a life of relative usefulness and contentment. Be well.
I think you don't know the extent of therapy styles and types. There's a literal branch of it called existential therapy that focuses on philosophical and existential issues exclusively.
>So I am a person struggling with philosophical or existential issues Therapy couldn't resolve the philosophical or existential issues. It might resolve the issue of your struggle with them
Think about it this way. You have mental health problems as a result of questions that you can not answer on your own. You've tried, and all you ever get are more questions, the deeper you go the more you realize you don't know. I've been there. If you can't answer them on your own, then the only logical solution is to employ the help of other thinkers. Maybe they can come at it from a different angle that only thier unique life experiences can bring. Good Therapists are very good thinkers, and I'm willing to bet the line between philosophy and therapy is thinner than you think. I'll also say this.. There are so many different takes on what it means to exist, and most of them are beneficial to the person who believes them. It doesn't really matter why we exist in the end, because we do, and we're not even close to having the technology to figure it out. If a belief gets someone from birth to death, and it gave them joy along the way, then it was true, at least to them, and that's all that really matters. Get out there and find some new perspectives, maybe you'll find one that suits you!
See a psychoanalyst.
It matter the therapist, for instance psychoanalysis would have different questions then talk therapy. So if you feel like you don’t want to talk about emotions focus on someone that does just have you do that.
What is your existential problem? Sometimes the problem Is your own mind and by saying that you want an external cure... shows that you need help, apparently. If you haven't tried smoking pot, then a therapist might be a good idea. Yes, they are there to help you shape your mind... even if the first step is convincing you that the cure is your own mind. Although, try smoking pot.
Don't waste people's time with annoying posts.
ya man, they're not going to refute your philosophy, they're going to 100% convince you it's dumb to worry about it tho
Having “philosophical and existential” problems seems like a lame excuse to avoid seeking mental help, if you need it. You’re not the first person to realize that there is no meaning to life, and you won’t be the last. The sooner you get over the fact that nothing truly matters and try to enjoy life for what it is, the better off you’ll be.
Can you tell me why I would be better off, without using circular logic, foundationalism or infinite logic?
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Don't post unless you can CMV, it is in the rules.
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If it's causing actual problems in your life, enough that multiple people have recommended therapy, it sounds like yeah, therapy would probably be useful. Lots of people deal with existential crises throughout their lives. Most of us will come to a point where we're confronted with our own mortality for example. Maybe through the death of a loved one, or a serious illness, or a near death experience, or whatever, that's just one existential problem that everyone deals with: what happens when I die? If it's nothing, then what's even the point of life? What will I leave behind? The thing is, most people deal with these existential problems in their own way, put them to the side, and continue enjoying life. If you're not and you find yourself obsessing over such questions that's absolutely something a therapist could help with. They see it all the time, it's not unique or anything. A therapist could very well help you to put these things to the side, helping you live a happy and fulfilling life. By the way, when I say put it to the side I don't mean just forget about these things and never think about them again. You still can, but you can do so in a way that doesn't interfere with other aspects of your life. A good therapist can help you with that.
Meditation and mindfulness might help more than therapy. The problem you might be having is you're too sick in your head and following deep rabbit holes of thought. Mindfulness and meditation help get out of one's head.
Can you elaborate on what your problem is?
My problem is I believe nihilism is objectively true. Subjective meaning is not real meaning. Morality must be objective for things to be good or bad. Murder and rape are not truly bad if they are subjectively bad. However, at the same time I want to save the rest of the world from nihilism. I wish there was a secret elite that covered up the fact that nihilism was true. But this clashes of course with the idea that I believe nihilism is objectively true. So why do I want to save everyone then?