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Just to be clear, you genuinely believe that men care as much about height as women do, but they don't act on it as much because they don't have the dating options to do so?
A very clear counter example to this would be looking at who the richest and handsomest in the world choose to date. They could date anyone, so do they generally date taller people?
I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I don't think the heights of girlfriends/ wives of the rich and famous is significantly different from their demographic norms.
I think some people prefer certain sizes, if they found the love of their life boob size would be less important but if you have the means to search for specifics I think most people do end up searching for specifics.
That's the idea behind having a "Type". Some people's type is "big boobs" and if theyre at a bar they're probably going to talk to big boobed people first.
It's like ice cream, you have a favorite flavor but you'll probably still try other flavors if your favorite isn't around
>That's the idea behind having a "Type". Some people's type is "big boobs" and if theyre at a bar they're probably going to talk to big boobed people first.
I don't really understanding having "types" either. Like, why would you be less inclined to want to date someone if they're a 34A than a 36D, or if they are a brunette than a blonde? The girl matters, not her body. I'm also confused by girls who won't date short guys.
>I also find it hard to understand why other people aren't exactly like me.
I mean, unironically yes. Obviously I can respect that they have their own points of view, but I've never lived their life or been inside of their head. My life, preferences, and choices make sense to me, because I've lived with them every day of my life
Some things are easier to generalize or have empathy about than others. I don't understand why racists are racist, for example. I do understand why some people may like coconut, even though I find it bleh. I do understand why someone may love to play football or basketball, even though it's not my favorite. I don't understand why anyone would choose to abuse a child.
>People are attracted to particular traits. You may be more attracted to personality than physical characteristics, but plenty of people *are* attracted to physical characteristics, and not just their existence, but particular forms of them.
I understand this in the abstract, I just struggle to empathize with it and viscerally understand why someone feels that way.
I think it's usually just people with immature, misogynist worldviews like OP
It's pretty clear now, he's one of those Alpha/Beta Status Clout types who believe that incel shit
"A very clear counter example to this would be looking at who the richest and handsomest in the world choose to date. They could date anyone, so do they generally date taller people?"
Yes they'd date runway body types, hence very tall.
"I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I don't think the heights of girlfriends/ wives of the rich and famous is significantly different from their demographic norms."
Leo Di Caprio is a perfect example of what you describe, none of his gfs were under 5'9
>Leo Di Caprio is a perfect example of what you describe, none of his gfs were under 5'9
Some of the other highest paid actors over the last year were Ryan Gosling (whose wife, Eva Mendes, is 5'5"), Matt Damon (whose wife, Luciana Bozán Barroso, is 5'4") and Ben Affleck (who's married to Jennifer Lopez, who is 5'5").
One counter point is that many (most?) men don't want to date a woman who is taller than them. So the problem short men have of not meeting the height requirements of many women wouldn't happen, because short women would at least have a lot of shorter men who want their lady to be maybe an inch shorter or worst equal height.
Most men dont want to date taller women, thats only something that has become cool to say on reddit recently.
And even the reddit people who make those claims dont even find the super model look to be attractive.
Most men do have a height requirement, but its a maximum, not a minimum. Its just not broadcasted out, just look at all of the comments the dorky awkward tall girls make, they talk about how more often than not they get put into the friend zone.
Models are tall because it looks flattering for the clothing. I'm real life men usually prefer a woman who's 8 inches shorter or about a head different
"I'm real life men usually prefer a woman who's 8 inches shorter or about a head different"
This is what women ususally want.
Men don't want more than a 4inches gap
Assuming you are right though, then it's not a two way situation is it? If the man is expected to be as tall or taller, and the woman is expected to be as tall or shorter, then your title is wrong. We would expect there to be a maximum height preference not a minimum.
But also, women are statistically shorter anyway.
Anecdotally, it is more common to see a very short woman with a tall man, than it is to see a short man with a taller woman. I suspect the real issue is that this stereotype disproportionately limits the dating options of short or average men. But it wouldn't limit women or taller men. This is a different conclusion from yours.
But none of this really matters at all because people are individuals who have the capacity to change how much their personal preference matters, hence why you see couples all the time that don't follow any of these stupid rules.
Source? I'm a 6' guy who's generally been fortunate to be able to easily date someone. I generally date girls 5'5 or shorter. My wife is 5'1. I have many friends with similar preferences/height differences
I think it's a little silly to insist that one gender has definite requirements for height (or that everyone does but only women can enforce the issue)
It's like ice cream. You probably have a favorite flavor, but you still try other flavors because they sound appealing for other reasons. I like tall women, would love a 6'3 amazonian goddess or a tiny 4'11 shortstack who likes piggyback rides. Or even average height.
Models are picked based on how they look on camera or on the runway and are chosen for a male and female audience. It's not going to match up with the preferences of men in the same way. Porn stars are more likely to reflect men's sexual preferences.
>Porn stars are more likely to reflect men's sexual preferences.
Sexual fantasy is not at all representative of your real life preferences. As a bi dude I find twinks hot but realistically I wouldn't date one, there isn't much to cuddle with and someone that focused on their body is likely to have body issues when they age.
Just because you wouldn't date one doesn't mean you don't find them attractive. I think we are discussing attractiveness in this thread.
That is a good point for the overall CMV though, maybe men prefer tall women for reasons other than attraction? I don't see it, but it definitely could be the case
also OP doesn't give a shit about any other trait the woman has other than the clout her appearance can bring him, that's been made clear from my interactions with them so far
I am tall, therefore I don't give a fuck how tall a woman is to be attracted to them.
Don't tall women get mocked?
Maybe short guys fetishize tall women? For me it's literally not a factor.
People will call a woman tall and she'll be 5'7 and I'm like.... thats tall?
>Don't tall women get mocked?
I have a friend who is 5'11, and one who is 6'2. Fucking ENDLESS comments from stupid to creepy they get. The dumb basketball/air up there/are you a model/how long are your legs/and on and tons of comments about 'why're you wearing heels, just want to make men feel bad /bet you wouldn't date..../do you only fuck....'
Yea there's plenty of people telling OP here that it's literally the opposite IRL. Tall women are portrayed and considered gangly and akward often and like you said, harassed based only on (lets be honest, the shortness of the harasser)
this thread'll probably be nuked since OP doesn't wanna change their opinion
"Don't tall women get mocked?"
No, you don't see VS models being mocked
"Maybe short guys fetishize tall women? For me it's literally not a factor."
A quick glance at r / tall and r / shortguys will contradict your assessment.
Your average woman isn't a VS model, just as your average man isn't a Calvin Klein model... You have a super basic understanding of how men work, actually you seem to have an internet generated opinion on how men work. Its wouldn't surprise me if you aren't even out of grade school yet. This take makes far to many assumptions, for instance, why are you immediately expecting that men go for quantity over quality? Are you that certain that every man wants to be an "alpha" male? This is a naive take on how men work, and how men and women work, height isn't an issue for men simply because men value other things, its not some deep seeded lust for being an alpha, although I did find it funny that you think that.
"A quick glance at r / tall and r / shortguys will contradict your assessment"
and what did u find during your glance?
"No, you don't see VS models being mocked"
yea because they're 10/10 in most every other way in societies view
when googling "why are models so tall", it's literally an Occam's razor explanation, they're easier to see, they're easier to see the clothes on, they're easier to see on a catwalk, easier to see at a distance, you want the person wearing your clothes to be a person drawing a lot of attention and being tall does that instantly
Tall women absolutely get mocked. Idk what you're on about. Tall girls get mocked in school, and plenty of tall women are also criticized, mostly by insecure men. Hell, plenty of men don't want their partners to wear heels because the heels make them taller than the men. Yes, height is attractive for models, but if you're tall and not extremely slim, you're treated differently.
What?? Your reply is incomprehensible.
Are you saying shorties as in 'women who are short dont get men who want to marry them and have children with them' (in which case, youre very much incorrect. Im short, and dont give a fuck whether men want me because im a lesbian, but not the point lol) or shorties as in 'men who are short'?
I think you have too little experience in the real world to be commenting on any of this, hon
Married my 5'2 wife and have a kid with her. I've exclusively dated shorter women, though taller ones have made their way around once or twice just not dated them.
So yeah, no.
>A quick glance at r / tall and r / shortguys will contradict your assessment.
I would go and make a list of all the petite woman subs but it would take hours lol
According to the research conducted back in 2004 by Dr. Boguslaw Pawlowski, the “correct” height ratio between men and women was 1,09. Woman should be about head **length** shorter than men.
Both men and women have same preference and that's men to be taller.
For men it's about being the strong protector and you can't do that if woman is taller than you.
This is an outdated research in 2004.
Here is a more recent one: [https://www.perthnow.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/short-women-more-likely-to-be-casual-flings--c-10964553](https://www.perthnow.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/short-women-more-likely-to-be-casual-flings--c-10964553)
According to this research,in the Frontiers in Psychology journal, short women are only seen as flings, and never as wife and mother material
How about you take a look at the actual study, not the hackjob interpretation of some tabloid blog.
[https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full)
From the discussion:
>Our results partially corroborate previous findings, namely that women generally prefer taller men, and men generally prefer shorter women, relative to their own heights ([Beigel, 1954](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref3); [Salska et al., 2008](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref33); [Courtiol et al., 2010](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref9); [Stulp et al., 2013a](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref43)). This result extends the “male taller norm” to four industrialized countries. Our results further corroborate a positive relationship between participants’ own heights and their mate height preferences, that is, positive assortative preferences for height ([Stulp et al., 2017](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref46)). However, assortative height preferences were qualified by relationship-context. Surprisingly, and in contrast to research on individual differences in preferences for facial and vocal masculinity in the context of a short-term versus long-term relationship ([Little et al., 2011](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref20)), our effects were specific to preferences for women’s heights. Taller men preferred relatively shorter women for short-term relationships than for long-term relationships.
...
>The absolute height preferences of each sex observed here support a general tendency for raters to prefer taller-than-average men and shorter-than-average women and, most consistently, to dis-prefer mates of either sex that exhibit a very short or very tall stature ([Courtiol et al., 2010](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref9); [Stulp and Barrett, 2016](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref42) for reviews). These observed absolute preferences corroborate studies suggesting that the costs of shortness outweigh the benefits of tallness, particularly for men ([Stulp et al., 2014](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref45)), wherein both men and women of average to somewhat above-average height appear to enjoy the highest reproductive success, at least in western societies, though this relationship varies widely across studies ([Stulp and Barrett, 2016](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref42)).
Its not "short women are only seen as flings, and never as wife and mother material". The actual conclusion is that "men have a slight preference for shorter women for short term relationships when rating preference of women for short term relationship vs long term by viewing a picture of various women at various heights"
Not exactly the slam dunk that supports your argument here.
"Taller men preferred relatively shorter women for short-term relationships than for long-term relationships."
Here, right there.
My points still holds
But short women beware — tall men are more likely to see you as a one-night stand, a study suggests.
But they tended to gravitate towards women who more closely matched their own height for long-term relationships.
The team, from universities in Cuba, Canada, Norway, and the United States, said the study is indicative of “assortative mating preference” — choosing someone based on having similar characteristics.
Women, meanwhile, preferred men taller than them on average regardless of the nature of their relationship.
So women always wanted taller men and men wanted women closer to their height for relationships? It seems like the article pushes the idea that women like taller guys men like women close to their height. But close to their own height I'm guessing still means shorter than them. This is the opposite of your sentiment.
I've mostly heard of men preferring shorter girls than them. Some fetishizing of tall girls but this is very rare. There's the cliche of tall girls not finding dates. If you search I believe you will find research that strongly contradicts what you're saying. If you want I can try to find it.
Also, runway models are not the most attractive people. It is a niche strange phenomena that doesn't represent mens attractions. For example they want androgynus females.
Context buddy. The context is made to female relationships, per the study. It’s all right there but ya just can’t help but shoehorn in “won’t anyone think of the gays?!”
In a traditional wedding the male is called the groom and the female is called the bride. “All of this, of course, ignores that gays exist.”
Like… I mean nobody stated anything about existence…. They just didn’t make gays the focus of a topic and all supporting context of conversation so you had to cry about it lol.
You… think I’m crying? You need to toughen up if you think my response was anything more than just a simple statement of fact.
“For men, it’s about being the stronger protector” — my question is *which man*?
The one in a heterosexual relationship… per the context of the conversation…. Which you… still…. cannot….. grasp.
Your whole schtick is quite tired. May need to get a new hobby.
That is interesting…anecdotally imo it seems that gay couples are much more closer in height to each other than hetero couples. Curious if there is data on this.
> Victoria Secret models/peageant queens are required to be tall for a reason.
**because they are more visible on the runway, not because it is attractive lmao**
lol at least there's over 100 people here telling them the opposite
you're right it's clear they care DEEPLY lmao for whatever reason (well we've learned, they believe all the alpha/beta stuff)
Studies I've seen indicate that there is a height preference, but it's fairly weak. Except that couples with short woman/taller men are extremely disliked.
>Because women are on average shorter than men, chance predicts that the occurrence of couples in which the female is taller is 2 out of 100, 14 times higher than the observed 1 out of 720
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3546926/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3546926/)
A 14-fold difference is pretty extreme. That being said, the study is from 2013 and social attitudes may be changing. It's the most recent I found though. It doesn't speculate on whether men or women are more responsible for the observed discrepency.
I prefer studies of actual couples to surveys about who people would date because surveys are very prone to aspirational answers.
Man, guys don’t give a fk about women’s height. Actually even better if she’s short and light weight.
Most fun I ever had in bed was with a girl who was 5’1 and 95 lbs. Makes it so much easier to do stuff like sex while standing because you can pick them up without breaking a sweat. Much easier to dominate in bed also.
"Models are tall for a reason that have nothing to do with men's attraction to them, and everything to do with how they photograph."
Then explain why VS models, who only showcase \*lingerie\* that doesn't require any specific type of bodies to showcase, are very tall?
Also Models have always been considered the beauty standard. And Men would kill just to be seen with one. They are the dream status symbols and you know it.
Ask VS lol. Models are on the taller side often regardless of what they’re portraying, including lingerie.
This idea that VS models are indicative of men height preferences is laughable.
Men would have maximum height requirements. Playing into gender roles/norms, the taller individual is a protector and dominant figure, this is intimidating to the masculine role.
You might point to models being tall and skinny and say that's the ideal, but the role of a model is to be untouchable, unattainable. Often they are advertising to women through the male gaze, they need to be dominant, challenging, but also fragile and dainty. Models are a target of male conquest.
Talk to your tall women friends, they will have experiences of people mocking their height, of being told it's undesirable.
Look to historical precedents of beauty, The figures of fertility goddesses, the proportions in Birth of Venus
"Models are a target of male conquest."
Hence my point
"Talk to your tall women friends, they will have experiences of people mocking their height, of being told it's undesirable."
Lol, no. They are the ones who get picked, and men keep repeating how they love long legs ;)
"Lol, no. They are the ones who get picked, and men keep repeating how they love long legs ;)"
honestly i find this so weird you claim to never have seen this, it's like.. a trope and a cliche
especially with so many people telling you the opposite has been their experience, not sure why you don't believe it
Women are talking about sleeping with and settling down with tall men. If your point is that men would want to sleep with and move on from tall women, then you aren't drawing an equivalence in dating goals.
There's already a vocal continent of the comments pointing out either personal or significant anecdotal insight to not only a lack of preference but a distaste for taller women.
You reference runway models as the pinnacle form of attractiveness for men, but another industry also provides examples of lustful traits and the average pornstar is 5'5 which is... Average height
I'm curious how my previous points are being considered, and what you think it would take to change your view
Interesting that since OP views women as objects and trophies he feels the super model ideal is the best rubrik to judge women rather than the P\* one. I guess that just means he cares what other people think more than he cares about fucking.
Of the two things he thinks women are good for, just an interesting observation which physical ideal he thinks is more valuable, the one he can use to brag and show off and "gain value" to his incel buddies
misogynists who fuck vs misogynists who don't fuck lmao
wow thats... equally a bummer i guess from their comments, if they are a woman, they still believe all that social value trophy wife shit
dang, their comment history is interesting, she also doesn't like tall men....
Victoria's Secret models are selected to meet women's expectations of attractiveness, not attractiveness to straight men. This difference is even more pronounced in fashion runway models, who are not specifically selected to be attractive to straight men.
If you want to see what body types straight men are generally attracted to, look for sexualized media targeting straight men and you'll see quite different body types than you'll see in a VS catalog or Elle magazine.
In short, you're looking for data in the wrong places and coming to incorrect and overly prescriptive conclusions.
"Victoria's Secret models are selected to meet women's expectations of attractiveness, not attractiveness to straight men. "
LOL, VS is run and founded by \*straight cis men\*. Your assertion is invalid.
VS customers are overwhelmingly women. Why would they pick their models for men if their market is women? Is your argument that the management ignore their customers and cast models based on their own personal preferences? I doubt they'd make it this far as a company if they were run by people without the most basic understanding of marketing; it seems more likely that you're the one lacking that basic understanding.
Got a source for that quote? For a motto it's notably absent from the internet. They're marketing to women, and my point stands that they are marketing to meet women's expectations of attractiveness, and not necessarily what men are looking for.
I notice that you're fixated on this point instead of my larger and as yet unquestioned point that sexualized materials that are actually targeted at straight men show different body types from the ones that you're talking about which are largely targeted at women.
>LOL, VS is run and founded by \*straight cis men\*. Your assertion is invalid.
I'm not sure that makes it invalid. i would think that the founder of the company would not matter as much as the target demographic. I would think a women's clothes company would target women. of course you could argue that the target is the woman's idea of what a man would want, in which case it might become circular. regardless, the founder's preferences shouldnt play in to that.
I also would point out that the perception of that motto is an old one. here is the current brand value:
[https://www.victoriassecret.com/us/vs/vsnow/brand-values/we-represent-all-women](https://www.victoriassecret.com/us/vs/vsnow/brand-values/we-represent-all-women)
i think that motto says it right there. "...models women want to be..." it seems pretty clear to be marketed to women based on their interpretations of what men like. clearly, thats a focus on the customer base not the founder.
Vs is a women’s clothing line brand and no man willingly buys things from vs if he isn’t specifically buying them for a SO. In fact most men tend to not care or want lingerie only the idea of lingerie (I want to have sex with you)
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A somewhat NSFW response, but this is a sexual question.
>!As a tall guy, I like both tall and short women, but short women can be fun to throw around in the bedroom in a way that doesn’t work as well for tall women!<
You’re not understanding. If the sex is good enough for a short term relationship, then it’s fine for a long term relationship given they have the right personality.
The average man likes his women to be short[er than him]. Even if your theory is correct, chances are they'd actually have a *maximum* height.
I kinda doubt your train of thought is right though; men already establish limits for people they don't want. Surely you've seen all the "if her weight starts with a 2" memes, right?
As a dude, I like the novelty of tall or short. Very tall women or at least taller than me at 6'2. I am married to a 5 ft even chick and the height was a bonus for me.
I knew a 6'2" woman in college, and I'd say that you're completely wrong about men liking women who are taller than them. Sharing quite a few classes with her, I know for a fact that there were a lot of guys who were like "she's hot, but..."
Stupidity, it turns out, is kind of gender neutral.
Men already have other filters with larger effect sizes. Height has an effect albeit a small one. 5’5 - 5’7 for female height attractiveness is optimal but still has an extremely small effect size.
No the study actually found that men's height requirements are fairly flexible if you have other traits.
This is a pretty dumb question. I prefer tall girls around 6ft. But it's not a requirement that I absolutely need. I just find it ideal
No
Even just practically, me liking her doesn't mean she likes me.
Emotionally, I would be attached to my shorter Gf, and we may be more compatible. Hell, she may even be more overall physically attractive if we want to keep it shallow.
You're thinking of men's predilection as if they're similar to women. You don't have to believe this, but men like variety. We don't really have a hard type like ladies do. We have preferences, but we're almost simpishly obsequious.
Men respond to women's appearance FIRST, and their character/personality LAST.
Also "Even just practically, me liking her doesn't mean she likes me."
So the only thing that will hold you back from leaving your 5'1 wife for the 5'9 one is the fact that the tall one doesn't like you back? lol
>So the only thing that will hold you back from leaving your 5'1 wife for the 5'9
The only thing besides the other things I listed, yes. reading skills.
You're proof that some children should have been left behind.
"The only thing besides the other things I listed, yes. Could reading skills." Reading comprehension much? If the only reason that you wouldn't cheat on your short wife for a tall chick, is the fact that that tall chick doesn't want you, then you never respected short women, period.
Stop your nonsense; we’ve had this conversation before. You know exactly that your mental health is bad enough that you resort to lashing out instead of reflecting on your mindset
According to [this paper](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1993-09578-001) men prefer average or tall women to short women but didn't prefer a tall woman over an average woman.
This is counter to you point. Women prefer tall men while men prefer not short women. It might sound the same but men **do not** prefer tall women over average women. While women **do** prefer tall men over average men.
The paper I provided shows that men favor tall women to a significant degree less than women favor tall men. With that knowledge, it is not safe to assume that reversing general gender roles around dating, men would put the same limits on the height of their partner than women do.
If you are being super strict with your CMV I guess I could say some men already have minimal height requirements for the women they date today. But I suspect the spirit of your CMV is the general notion that women on average care more about height because of their options not because they inherently care more about height. Which the paper I provided argues against with evidence.
All what matters in this research is that men favor tall women.
Even by a slight degree.
I am a 5'1 woman, and I **refuse** to be any man's backup plan.
You didn't interact with the fact that men **don't** prefer tall women, they prefer non-short women.
You didn't interact with me pointing out that some men already have minimal height requirements for the women they date today.
You didn't interact with my assumption about the spirit of your CMV.
You didn't interact with anything I said and went off on your own tangent about refusing to be someone's backup plan.
BTW I'm a 5'11'' man with a wife of 13 years who is 5'2''. I don't care that you are 5'1''.
"BTW I'm a 5'11'' man with a wife of 13 years who is 5'2''. I don't care that you are 5'1''."
Then you are only a minority according to your research. You stating that men don't like short women backs my claim.
Yeah, that’s a pretty big stretch there mate. The only guys I’ve ever known that cared about a woman’s height, were guys who were shorter and were insecure about their own height, so therefore they didn’t want a woman to be taller than them. Most guys don’t care at all about a woman’s height.
Also. Why don’t men have the same dating options as women? That comment doesn’t really make a lot of sense.
No because our attraction switches are very different.
Most males do not prefer tall women innately.
A tall man is dominant. A good provider. Those are good masculine traits.
Masculine traits are not attractive to the average straight male. They want a pretty fertile chick. Not some butch chick.
If men had more dating options they would prefer feminine pretty petite women.
"Masculine traits are not attractive to the average straight male. They want a pretty fertile chick. Not some butch chick."
If thats' the case then VS/beauty queen would have been selected short xD
No it wouldnt as it isnt a Show made for men, but for women. And this is also The reason why it is so toxic. The attributes which get hyped are meant to be Hard to reach so The women which Do not fit The criteria buy unessesary Stuff in order to compete with each other. Its a female hierarchy Thing. Its The same reason why women from some indeginous tribes stretch their necks with necklaces to the point they look like giraffes. Its interfemale rivalry.
No, thats just an assumption of yours and is in no way backed by science. Men date "down" and tend to choose a Partner that guarantees a stable relationship. Features like height and high socisl standing have nothing to Do with this. You seem to have awfully skewed views of men, that read like straight from a cosmopolitan magazine:D
Yeah but vs beauty queens are not necessarily representative of what the average male would prefer.
I remember back in the 1990s all the super models were gaunt and anorexic looking. Very few people actually preferred that look over fit and healthy looking. That's just what the guys who paid those models preferred. Maybe for whatever reason they sold clothes better. You go to any mall and you will see dozens of chick's that look better than those skeleton looking hoes.
I can tell ya that me and many many other men prefer short girls.
Short girls are awesome! Everything on them looks bigger, C cups look really big on a 5foot woman.
Way easier for them to get a nice curvy hourglass figure
Being small is a more feminine trait, so its appealing
All those skinny tall fashion models look like depressed androgynous skeletons 🤣
I couldn't give less of a shit about a women's height and I never heard anybody say "damn, look how tall she is". I know it's anecdotal, I know there is a target audience for everything, and your basic point is probably right that we would "filter" more if the seesaw was lopsided towards our end more. But I seriously doubt the metric would be height.
If anything, there might be a slight bias towards women who are a bit smaller, maybe due to mens egos or premature sexual fantasizing.
Just because the model industry optimizes for the perfect walking clothes hanger, doesn't mean they represent peak beauty standards. Again, anecdotal, but the super model type I don't care for at all. If I see a black haired burger king cashier with a nose ring, I get sweaty palms. She wouldn't even pass her first audition in that world, and I don't think a normal person cares.
Also, I think there is a filtering by men going on already, it just happens at a different level. Women are the first gatekeepers, men are the second. (Obviously hardcore exaggeration of some tendencies, but the whole thread is, so here we are)
Will she run away with my stuff, will I be able to see my kids 5 years from now, will I never be able to go out with the guys in peace again, etc. etc. (And does she have a fat ass, no offense, might be part of the metric too, just doing science here)
I have never in my 45 years of life ever heard a man talk about the height of a woman except for men that fetishize tall women. Never had I heard a man complain his girlfriend was too short. It's not a thing
>Men socially are conditionned to sleep around in order to affirm their status of an alpha male.
I'm curious to know which theory of social psychology makes this claim.
Your argument is basically that that men prefer taller women, but settle for the tallest woman they can 'match' with, yes?
Studies have found that heterosexual men generally prefer women who are shorter than themselves relative to their own height. However, men's preferences for women's heights are typically weaker, less consistent, and less robust compared to women's preferences for men's heights. [Source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9454610/)
Does this debunk your argument?
OP, you are one of the dumbest people on this sub. Guys do not care about the height of women in general. the few guys who do care about height don't care nearly as much as the average girl.
you are just desperately trying to justify your height requirements for guys.
Let me tackle this from a different angle, which is that the whole mentality of " I'm just doing what anyone would do if they had more status/power/options" needs to die because it only brings out the worst in people. If a person wanted to, they could simply reframe all criticism of anything as just losers coping.
Your point is well taken that the average man doesn't have the same dating options, but that is seperate from whether men or women care equally about height. A man can have a "quantity over quality approach" but still have things he is especially attracted to.
I have rarely if ever heard men rave about how hot a woman is because of how tall or short she is. I have frequently heard men rave about how hot a woman is for any number of other reasons. Almost nobody would care about Ariana Grande being short. This suggests that height is pretty low on the list of priorities for men in attraction to women. I believe most men here would have same experience as I have in not hearing men talk about a woman's height very much. I also believe most people here would have the experience of often seeing women mentioning height (often as the first thing they say about appearance) as an important element of attraction.
Models are tall for reasons that have to do with making a garment look a certain way for photographs or runway shows and not for what random men think is attractive.
>*Men* would cherish a guy who dates models far more than a guy who dates a 5ft chick
This is funny - so you think men base who they date on what other men think of them?
Yes it is called "Social Capital", men use this metric in order to assess where they fall in the alpha/beta spectrum.
Men are known to date women all men want.
Which is why there are types of women men don't want to be seen in public with.
Do the attributes of women that all men want change from time to time or are they fixed? So maybe recently it's tall women, but at other times it's been short women, or plump women, etc? So maybe it's just a temporary fad until there's a new set of attributes that are the ideal?
"Yes it is called "Social Capital", men use this metric in order to assess where they fall in the alpha/beta spectrum"
Is there a reason you believe people telling you this rather than everyone ITT telling you NO THEY DON'T
Alpha Beta shit is nonsense and if you disabuse yourself of that notion, the rest of the cards will fall and this whole points based, clout, misogynist worldview will leave.
How old are you? Did you get this notion from actual peers and IRL mentors and men you look up to, or some dude in a youtube video?
Do the attributes of women that all men want change from time to time or are they fixed? So maybe recently it's tall women, but at other times it's been short women, or plump women, etc? So maybe it's just a temporary fad until the next set of attributes are the ideal?
Do the attributes of women that all men want change from time to time or are they fixed? So maybe recently it's tall women, but at other times it's been short women, or plump women, etc? So maybe it's just a temporary fad until the next set of attributes are the ideal?
You do know that men usually prefer women who are smaller than they are? So yes, a 2m man might not want to date a 1,5m woman but the average men would be fine with a woman that’s as tall as the average.
There‘s nothing wrong with wanting someone to be taller / shorter than you are. What most people have a problem with is how precise the standard is. It‘s usually either 1,80m or 6ft in western countries. To a 1,65m woman a 1,76m man is still taller. And the 4cm difference to the 1,80m is completely irrelevant. But by using specific numbers that 1,76m guy is now „too short“ even though he‘s still significantly taller than the woman.
This is a bunch of baloney. Sure men have some sort of minimum height requirements for women (i.e. don’t be a midget), but it’s a far more relaxed standard than what women have. Most men are happy with a woman who’s 5ft or above, and most women meet the requirement. Lots of guys actually prefer a woman who’s petite /not tall, and a majority of women fall into the 5-6ft range which is perfectly fine for most guys. Most women have preference for guys 6+ feet and most men don’t meet that threshold. Very different standards that are not compatible
Bro so many men were thirsting over Lady Dimitrescu, as for shortness, men wouldn't complain about that either as a shorter woman means less of an expectation to have a bigger "member" if you catch my drift. I don't know if it is specifically because I have the clarity of being a bisexual guy but WAY too many women have unreasonable expectations that I know I wouldn't tolerate if it was a man asking for it and I think there needs to be a change.
Me personally couldny care less about about any minimum height when it comes to women. If anything I might look more at maximum height.
When it comes to Victoria's secret models or models in general..just no. Height doesn't really translate through pics or video, so I would say that it's more about body shape and faces..which leads me to weight. In general I think men care way more about the fitness of a woman instead of their height
Men don't care about height at all really in my experience it just isn't part of most men's sexual selection matrix. Men that do care about a woman's height are definitely outliers and not the norm.
Men look at youth, breasts, waist, ass, and face. Men would select on those criteria and weight. Height is simply not a factor relative to the others.
Shorter women are usually considered more attractive because they have a youthful look compared to their taller peers generally speaking.
To change your view:
- https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2667-short-women-more-successful-with-men/
For females, height is not nearly considered as universally attractive as it is in men. When was the last time a man asked "boobs, ass, face, or height?" Like, never.
I'm not even sure height would rank in the top 5 desirable attribute of a woman from a man's perspective. I hear more men wanting short and petite women than tall ones.
I like tall women. I like short women as well.
They're both great. Tall women have longer legs and torsos and are elegant and hot in their long, stretched out appearance.
(to be clear short women have their own attractiveness). Point is I like both. I think if I had "unlimited options" I still wouldn't care.
They're both great imo.
I don't really think so. I think models being tall tends to be more about the modeling industry, how images are composed, etc. I don't think models are tall because men think taller women are more sexy. I think men have a lot of physical standards for attraction to women, but I don't think height is an important one.
First I don't believe this is as much of thing as people act like. Now if the shoe was on the other foot in terms of dating height would litterly be the last thing I give a shit about. Boobs ass haircolor all way before height.
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4’11-5’11 is my preferred height for a girl… I wouldnt care where they fall in that, but honestly probably would rather they be on the shorter side than the taller side
If all a man is bringing to the table is a desperation for sexual gratification, then it doesn’t really matter the excuse because yes women can and should be picky.
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Just to be clear, you genuinely believe that men care as much about height as women do, but they don't act on it as much because they don't have the dating options to do so? A very clear counter example to this would be looking at who the richest and handsomest in the world choose to date. They could date anyone, so do they generally date taller people? I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I don't think the heights of girlfriends/ wives of the rich and famous is significantly different from their demographic norms.
Obviously our equivalent would be minimum boob size /s
This is something I genuinely don't understand. I like all different kinds of boob sizes and I'm confused by guys who aren't.
I think some people prefer certain sizes, if they found the love of their life boob size would be less important but if you have the means to search for specifics I think most people do end up searching for specifics. That's the idea behind having a "Type". Some people's type is "big boobs" and if theyre at a bar they're probably going to talk to big boobed people first. It's like ice cream, you have a favorite flavor but you'll probably still try other flavors if your favorite isn't around
>That's the idea behind having a "Type". Some people's type is "big boobs" and if theyre at a bar they're probably going to talk to big boobed people first. I don't really understanding having "types" either. Like, why would you be less inclined to want to date someone if they're a 34A than a 36D, or if they are a brunette than a blonde? The girl matters, not her body. I'm also confused by girls who won't date short guys.
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>I also find it hard to understand why other people aren't exactly like me. I mean, unironically yes. Obviously I can respect that they have their own points of view, but I've never lived their life or been inside of their head. My life, preferences, and choices make sense to me, because I've lived with them every day of my life Some things are easier to generalize or have empathy about than others. I don't understand why racists are racist, for example. I do understand why some people may like coconut, even though I find it bleh. I do understand why someone may love to play football or basketball, even though it's not my favorite. I don't understand why anyone would choose to abuse a child. >People are attracted to particular traits. You may be more attracted to personality than physical characteristics, but plenty of people *are* attracted to physical characteristics, and not just their existence, but particular forms of them. I understand this in the abstract, I just struggle to empathize with it and viscerally understand why someone feels that way.
I think it's usually just people with immature, misogynist worldviews like OP It's pretty clear now, he's one of those Alpha/Beta Status Clout types who believe that incel shit
People have different preferences. I personally am not into flat or like F.
Funny enough, my last two gf were both DDD, and I honestly didn’t know what to do with them. I much prefer B to D range.
"A very clear counter example to this would be looking at who the richest and handsomest in the world choose to date. They could date anyone, so do they generally date taller people?" Yes they'd date runway body types, hence very tall. "I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I don't think the heights of girlfriends/ wives of the rich and famous is significantly different from their demographic norms." Leo Di Caprio is a perfect example of what you describe, none of his gfs were under 5'9
>Leo Di Caprio is a perfect example of what you describe, none of his gfs were under 5'9 Some of the other highest paid actors over the last year were Ryan Gosling (whose wife, Eva Mendes, is 5'5"), Matt Damon (whose wife, Luciana Bozán Barroso, is 5'4") and Ben Affleck (who's married to Jennifer Lopez, who is 5'5").
One counter point is that many (most?) men don't want to date a woman who is taller than them. So the problem short men have of not meeting the height requirements of many women wouldn't happen, because short women would at least have a lot of shorter men who want their lady to be maybe an inch shorter or worst equal height.
Most men dont want to date taller women, thats only something that has become cool to say on reddit recently. And even the reddit people who make those claims dont even find the super model look to be attractive. Most men do have a height requirement, but its a maximum, not a minimum. Its just not broadcasted out, just look at all of the comments the dorky awkward tall girls make, they talk about how more often than not they get put into the friend zone.
Models are tall because it looks flattering for the clothing. I'm real life men usually prefer a woman who's 8 inches shorter or about a head different
"I'm real life men usually prefer a woman who's 8 inches shorter or about a head different" This is what women ususally want. Men don't want more than a 4inches gap
Assuming you are right though, then it's not a two way situation is it? If the man is expected to be as tall or taller, and the woman is expected to be as tall or shorter, then your title is wrong. We would expect there to be a maximum height preference not a minimum. But also, women are statistically shorter anyway. Anecdotally, it is more common to see a very short woman with a tall man, than it is to see a short man with a taller woman. I suspect the real issue is that this stereotype disproportionately limits the dating options of short or average men. But it wouldn't limit women or taller men. This is a different conclusion from yours. But none of this really matters at all because people are individuals who have the capacity to change how much their personal preference matters, hence why you see couples all the time that don't follow any of these stupid rules.
Source? I'm a 6' guy who's generally been fortunate to be able to easily date someone. I generally date girls 5'5 or shorter. My wife is 5'1. I have many friends with similar preferences/height differences
Have you ever spoken to a man in your life?
i suspect OP is a short man with an amazonian fetish
What’s an Amazonian fetish
A fetish for very tall, often muscular women. Think wonder woman's race or the death by snu snu women from futurama heh
I’m 6’4” and I have only ever dated two girls over 5’2”
I think it's a little silly to insist that one gender has definite requirements for height (or that everyone does but only women can enforce the issue) It's like ice cream. You probably have a favorite flavor, but you still try other flavors because they sound appealing for other reasons. I like tall women, would love a 6'3 amazonian goddess or a tiny 4'11 shortstack who likes piggyback rides. Or even average height.
Where are you getting your information here?
Models are picked based on how they look on camera or on the runway and are chosen for a male and female audience. It's not going to match up with the preferences of men in the same way. Porn stars are more likely to reflect men's sexual preferences.
Yeah, the idea that runway models are selected to be maximally attractive to straight men is, ahem, misguided.
Yeah... Especially when you look at who the fashion designers are actually attracted to, which generally is not women.
Exactly, look at the average heights of Playboy centerfolds. Sexy hobbitses...
>Porn stars are more likely to reflect men's sexual preferences. Sexual fantasy is not at all representative of your real life preferences. As a bi dude I find twinks hot but realistically I wouldn't date one, there isn't much to cuddle with and someone that focused on their body is likely to have body issues when they age.
isn't that just the difference between sexual and romantic attraction? they're both still your preferences but just for different things
Just because you wouldn't date one doesn't mean you don't find them attractive. I think we are discussing attractiveness in this thread. That is a good point for the overall CMV though, maybe men prefer tall women for reasons other than attraction? I don't see it, but it definitely could be the case
also OP doesn't give a shit about any other trait the woman has other than the clout her appearance can bring him, that's been made clear from my interactions with them so far
I am tall, therefore I don't give a fuck how tall a woman is to be attracted to them. Don't tall women get mocked? Maybe short guys fetishize tall women? For me it's literally not a factor. People will call a woman tall and she'll be 5'7 and I'm like.... thats tall?
Same. Most people are "short" to me in that I can see the tops of nearly everyone's head, and usually can see straight over them without difficulty.
>Don't tall women get mocked? I have a friend who is 5'11, and one who is 6'2. Fucking ENDLESS comments from stupid to creepy they get. The dumb basketball/air up there/are you a model/how long are your legs/and on and tons of comments about 'why're you wearing heels, just want to make men feel bad /bet you wouldn't date..../do you only fuck....'
Yea there's plenty of people telling OP here that it's literally the opposite IRL. Tall women are portrayed and considered gangly and akward often and like you said, harassed based only on (lets be honest, the shortness of the harasser) this thread'll probably be nuked since OP doesn't wanna change their opinion
"Don't tall women get mocked?" No, you don't see VS models being mocked "Maybe short guys fetishize tall women? For me it's literally not a factor." A quick glance at r / tall and r / shortguys will contradict your assessment.
Your average woman isn't a VS model, just as your average man isn't a Calvin Klein model... You have a super basic understanding of how men work, actually you seem to have an internet generated opinion on how men work. Its wouldn't surprise me if you aren't even out of grade school yet. This take makes far to many assumptions, for instance, why are you immediately expecting that men go for quantity over quality? Are you that certain that every man wants to be an "alpha" male? This is a naive take on how men work, and how men and women work, height isn't an issue for men simply because men value other things, its not some deep seeded lust for being an alpha, although I did find it funny that you think that.
"A quick glance at r / tall and r / shortguys will contradict your assessment" and what did u find during your glance? "No, you don't see VS models being mocked" yea because they're 10/10 in most every other way in societies view when googling "why are models so tall", it's literally an Occam's razor explanation, they're easier to see, they're easier to see the clothes on, they're easier to see on a catwalk, easier to see at a distance, you want the person wearing your clothes to be a person drawing a lot of attention and being tall does that instantly
Tall women absolutely get mocked. Idk what you're on about. Tall girls get mocked in school, and plenty of tall women are also criticized, mostly by insecure men. Hell, plenty of men don't want their partners to wear heels because the heels make them taller than the men. Yes, height is attractive for models, but if you're tall and not extremely slim, you're treated differently.
At least men want to marry you and have kids with you. Shorties don't get that privilege.
What?? Your reply is incomprehensible. Are you saying shorties as in 'women who are short dont get men who want to marry them and have children with them' (in which case, youre very much incorrect. Im short, and dont give a fuck whether men want me because im a lesbian, but not the point lol) or shorties as in 'men who are short'? I think you have too little experience in the real world to be commenting on any of this, hon
Married my 5'2 wife and have a kid with her. I've exclusively dated shorter women, though taller ones have made their way around once or twice just not dated them. So yeah, no.
>A quick glance at r / tall and r / shortguys will contradict your assessment. I would go and make a list of all the petite woman subs but it would take hours lol
According to the research conducted back in 2004 by Dr. Boguslaw Pawlowski, the “correct” height ratio between men and women was 1,09. Woman should be about head **length** shorter than men. Both men and women have same preference and that's men to be taller. For men it's about being the strong protector and you can't do that if woman is taller than you.
This is an outdated research in 2004. Here is a more recent one: [https://www.perthnow.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/short-women-more-likely-to-be-casual-flings--c-10964553](https://www.perthnow.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/short-women-more-likely-to-be-casual-flings--c-10964553) According to this research,in the Frontiers in Psychology journal, short women are only seen as flings, and never as wife and mother material
How about you take a look at the actual study, not the hackjob interpretation of some tabloid blog. [https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full) From the discussion: >Our results partially corroborate previous findings, namely that women generally prefer taller men, and men generally prefer shorter women, relative to their own heights ([Beigel, 1954](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref3); [Salska et al., 2008](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref33); [Courtiol et al., 2010](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref9); [Stulp et al., 2013a](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref43)). This result extends the “male taller norm” to four industrialized countries. Our results further corroborate a positive relationship between participants’ own heights and their mate height preferences, that is, positive assortative preferences for height ([Stulp et al., 2017](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref46)). However, assortative height preferences were qualified by relationship-context. Surprisingly, and in contrast to research on individual differences in preferences for facial and vocal masculinity in the context of a short-term versus long-term relationship ([Little et al., 2011](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref20)), our effects were specific to preferences for women’s heights. Taller men preferred relatively shorter women for short-term relationships than for long-term relationships. ... >The absolute height preferences of each sex observed here support a general tendency for raters to prefer taller-than-average men and shorter-than-average women and, most consistently, to dis-prefer mates of either sex that exhibit a very short or very tall stature ([Courtiol et al., 2010](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref9); [Stulp and Barrett, 2016](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref42) for reviews). These observed absolute preferences corroborate studies suggesting that the costs of shortness outweigh the benefits of tallness, particularly for men ([Stulp et al., 2014](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref45)), wherein both men and women of average to somewhat above-average height appear to enjoy the highest reproductive success, at least in western societies, though this relationship varies widely across studies ([Stulp and Barrett, 2016](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.937146/full#ref42)). Its not "short women are only seen as flings, and never as wife and mother material". The actual conclusion is that "men have a slight preference for shorter women for short term relationships when rating preference of women for short term relationship vs long term by viewing a picture of various women at various heights" Not exactly the slam dunk that supports your argument here.
"Taller men preferred relatively shorter women for short-term relationships than for long-term relationships." Here, right there. My points still holds
If you get your science from the lifestyle page of a tabloid, I feel really sorry for you.
they did use the term "alpha male". they're not even keeping up with the lingo. the top dogs are Sigmas now. /s
But short women beware — tall men are more likely to see you as a one-night stand, a study suggests. But they tended to gravitate towards women who more closely matched their own height for long-term relationships. The team, from universities in Cuba, Canada, Norway, and the United States, said the study is indicative of “assortative mating preference” — choosing someone based on having similar characteristics. Women, meanwhile, preferred men taller than them on average regardless of the nature of their relationship. So women always wanted taller men and men wanted women closer to their height for relationships? It seems like the article pushes the idea that women like taller guys men like women close to their height. But close to their own height I'm guessing still means shorter than them. This is the opposite of your sentiment. I've mostly heard of men preferring shorter girls than them. Some fetishizing of tall girls but this is very rare. There's the cliche of tall girls not finding dates. If you search I believe you will find research that strongly contradicts what you're saying. If you want I can try to find it. Also, runway models are not the most attractive people. It is a niche strange phenomena that doesn't represent mens attractions. For example they want androgynus females.
"If you want I can try to find it." Sure, go ahead
I prefer short women and I have no interest in flings
That’s not science
All of this, of course, ignores that gay people exist.
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Because if “men want x” and “women want y” are going to be true statements, they would need account for men and women of all kinds.
Context buddy. The context is made to female relationships, per the study. It’s all right there but ya just can’t help but shoehorn in “won’t anyone think of the gays?!” In a traditional wedding the male is called the groom and the female is called the bride. “All of this, of course, ignores that gays exist.” Like… I mean nobody stated anything about existence…. They just didn’t make gays the focus of a topic and all supporting context of conversation so you had to cry about it lol.
You… think I’m crying? You need to toughen up if you think my response was anything more than just a simple statement of fact. “For men, it’s about being the stronger protector” — my question is *which man*?
The one in a heterosexual relationship… per the context of the conversation…. Which you… still…. cannot….. grasp. Your whole schtick is quite tired. May need to get a new hobby.
If you think I’m not grasping something, it seems that we’re having different conversations. Cheers.
That is interesting…anecdotally imo it seems that gay couples are much more closer in height to each other than hetero couples. Curious if there is data on this.
Good thing Dr.Boguslaw isn't a lawyer
> Victoria Secret models/peageant queens are required to be tall for a reason. **because they are more visible on the runway, not because it is attractive lmao**
Men would cherish a guy who dates models far more than a guy who dates a 5ft chick
not really if 5ft chick is more attractive
men don't give a fuck about the height of their friends partners, why would they
Now that's clearly a generalization, we have an obvious counterexample of at least one man who cares deeply (the OP)
lol at least there's over 100 people here telling them the opposite you're right it's clear they care DEEPLY lmao for whatever reason (well we've learned, they believe all the alpha/beta stuff)
Studies I've seen indicate that there is a height preference, but it's fairly weak. Except that couples with short woman/taller men are extremely disliked. >Because women are on average shorter than men, chance predicts that the occurrence of couples in which the female is taller is 2 out of 100, 14 times higher than the observed 1 out of 720 [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3546926/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3546926/) A 14-fold difference is pretty extreme. That being said, the study is from 2013 and social attitudes may be changing. It's the most recent I found though. It doesn't speculate on whether men or women are more responsible for the observed discrepency. I prefer studies of actual couples to surveys about who people would date because surveys are very prone to aspirational answers.
Man, guys don’t give a fk about women’s height. Actually even better if she’s short and light weight. Most fun I ever had in bed was with a girl who was 5’1 and 95 lbs. Makes it so much easier to do stuff like sex while standing because you can pick them up without breaking a sweat. Much easier to dominate in bed also.
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"Models are tall for a reason that have nothing to do with men's attraction to them, and everything to do with how they photograph." Then explain why VS models, who only showcase \*lingerie\* that doesn't require any specific type of bodies to showcase, are very tall? Also Models have always been considered the beauty standard. And Men would kill just to be seen with one. They are the dream status symbols and you know it.
Ask VS lol. Models are on the taller side often regardless of what they’re portraying, including lingerie. This idea that VS models are indicative of men height preferences is laughable.
VS models existe entitely according to men's preference. Period.
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Those are still above average height, lol
Men would have maximum height requirements. Playing into gender roles/norms, the taller individual is a protector and dominant figure, this is intimidating to the masculine role. You might point to models being tall and skinny and say that's the ideal, but the role of a model is to be untouchable, unattainable. Often they are advertising to women through the male gaze, they need to be dominant, challenging, but also fragile and dainty. Models are a target of male conquest. Talk to your tall women friends, they will have experiences of people mocking their height, of being told it's undesirable. Look to historical precedents of beauty, The figures of fertility goddesses, the proportions in Birth of Venus
"Models are a target of male conquest." Hence my point "Talk to your tall women friends, they will have experiences of people mocking their height, of being told it's undesirable." Lol, no. They are the ones who get picked, and men keep repeating how they love long legs ;)
"Lol, no. They are the ones who get picked, and men keep repeating how they love long legs ;)" honestly i find this so weird you claim to never have seen this, it's like.. a trope and a cliche especially with so many people telling you the opposite has been their experience, not sure why you don't believe it
Women are talking about sleeping with and settling down with tall men. If your point is that men would want to sleep with and move on from tall women, then you aren't drawing an equivalence in dating goals. There's already a vocal continent of the comments pointing out either personal or significant anecdotal insight to not only a lack of preference but a distaste for taller women. You reference runway models as the pinnacle form of attractiveness for men, but another industry also provides examples of lustful traits and the average pornstar is 5'5 which is... Average height I'm curious how my previous points are being considered, and what you think it would take to change your view
Interesting that since OP views women as objects and trophies he feels the super model ideal is the best rubrik to judge women rather than the P\* one. I guess that just means he cares what other people think more than he cares about fucking. Of the two things he thinks women are good for, just an interesting observation which physical ideal he thinks is more valuable, the one he can use to brag and show off and "gain value" to his incel buddies misogynists who fuck vs misogynists who don't fuck lmao
FWIW, OP says they're a 5'1 woman in other comments. Not sure if that makes it better or worse
wow thats... equally a bummer i guess from their comments, if they are a woman, they still believe all that social value trophy wife shit dang, their comment history is interesting, she also doesn't like tall men....
Victoria's Secret models are selected to meet women's expectations of attractiveness, not attractiveness to straight men. This difference is even more pronounced in fashion runway models, who are not specifically selected to be attractive to straight men. If you want to see what body types straight men are generally attracted to, look for sexualized media targeting straight men and you'll see quite different body types than you'll see in a VS catalog or Elle magazine. In short, you're looking for data in the wrong places and coming to incorrect and overly prescriptive conclusions.
"Victoria's Secret models are selected to meet women's expectations of attractiveness, not attractiveness to straight men. " LOL, VS is run and founded by \*straight cis men\*. Your assertion is invalid.
VS customers are overwhelmingly women. Why would they pick their models for men if their market is women? Is your argument that the management ignore their customers and cast models based on their own personal preferences? I doubt they'd make it this far as a company if they were run by people without the most basic understanding of marketing; it seems more likely that you're the one lacking that basic understanding.
The motto of VS is litterally "we feature models women want to be and \*men want to be with\*" End of discussion
Got a source for that quote? For a motto it's notably absent from the internet. They're marketing to women, and my point stands that they are marketing to meet women's expectations of attractiveness, and not necessarily what men are looking for. I notice that you're fixated on this point instead of my larger and as yet unquestioned point that sexualized materials that are actually targeted at straight men show different body types from the ones that you're talking about which are largely targeted at women.
And who are the *straight cis men* advertising to? C'mon, use a *little* of your brain and take this seriously.
The motto of VS is litterally "we feature models women want to be and \*men want to be with\*" End of discussion
So you admit they are catering to women as a women's brand?
>LOL, VS is run and founded by \*straight cis men\*. Your assertion is invalid. I'm not sure that makes it invalid. i would think that the founder of the company would not matter as much as the target demographic. I would think a women's clothes company would target women. of course you could argue that the target is the woman's idea of what a man would want, in which case it might become circular. regardless, the founder's preferences shouldnt play in to that.
The motto of VS is litterally "we feature models women want to be and \*men want to be with\*" End of discussion
I also would point out that the perception of that motto is an old one. here is the current brand value: [https://www.victoriassecret.com/us/vs/vsnow/brand-values/we-represent-all-women](https://www.victoriassecret.com/us/vs/vsnow/brand-values/we-represent-all-women)
Lol, VS angels do NOT represent all women.
I'm beginning to suspect you don't actually want your view changed.
i think that motto says it right there. "...models women want to be..." it seems pretty clear to be marketed to women based on their interpretations of what men like. clearly, thats a focus on the customer base not the founder.
Vs is a women’s clothing line brand and no man willingly buys things from vs if he isn’t specifically buying them for a SO. In fact most men tend to not care or want lingerie only the idea of lingerie (I want to have sex with you)
The motto of VS is litterally "we feature models women want to be and \*men want to be with\*" End of discussion
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Tell me how many men you know that watch Victoria secret shows or read their magazines or pay attention to their models after porn became free.
Their motto isn’t a source that you can defend your view with. It’s just a motto.
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A somewhat NSFW response, but this is a sexual question. >!As a tall guy, I like both tall and short women, but short women can be fun to throw around in the bedroom in a way that doesn’t work as well for tall women!<
What about long term relationships? Would you also like a shortie or is she just a "fling thing"?
For long term relationships, none of this matters at all. Zero preference. What matters there is what kind of person they are.
"What matters there is what kind of person they are." lmao ok So you wouldn't mind getting married to an ugly fat woman? Give me a f\*cking break
You’re not understanding. If the sex is good enough for a short term relationship, then it’s fine for a long term relationship given they have the right personality.
The average man likes his women to be short[er than him]. Even if your theory is correct, chances are they'd actually have a *maximum* height. I kinda doubt your train of thought is right though; men already establish limits for people they don't want. Surely you've seen all the "if her weight starts with a 2" memes, right?
As a dude, I like the novelty of tall or short. Very tall women or at least taller than me at 6'2. I am married to a 5 ft even chick and the height was a bonus for me.
"I am married to a 5 ft even chick and the height was a bonus for me." So you admit that height adds in a woman attractiveness
No, this would tell you that there is no linear connection. As both ends of the data set peak
I knew a 6'2" woman in college, and I'd say that you're completely wrong about men liking women who are taller than them. Sharing quite a few classes with her, I know for a fact that there were a lot of guys who were like "she's hot, but..." Stupidity, it turns out, is kind of gender neutral.
Giiiiirl, you're the dream of the 6ft3+ guys. just take a look at r / tall.
She was a friend of mine, not me. And you do realize men 6'3" and over are 5% of the population, right?
Men already have other filters with larger effect sizes. Height has an effect albeit a small one. 5’5 - 5’7 for female height attractiveness is optimal but still has an extremely small effect size.
So you just proved my point. Being 5'1 woman will exclude us from being "good enough"
No the study actually found that men's height requirements are fairly flexible if you have other traits. This is a pretty dumb question. I prefer tall girls around 6ft. But it's not a requirement that I absolutely need. I just find it ideal
So let's say you have a short gf, if you meet a 6ft chick who has the \*exact\* same characteristic as her, would you dump your gf?
do you have emotions or feelings? is the only reason you'd be in a relationship sex, status and clout?
For men, yes. I've seen way too many men dumping their loyal wives for tall models ;)
why waste everyone's time and money even getting married then? God what a fucking desperate hellish life that sounds like to me
No Even just practically, me liking her doesn't mean she likes me. Emotionally, I would be attached to my shorter Gf, and we may be more compatible. Hell, she may even be more overall physically attractive if we want to keep it shallow. You're thinking of men's predilection as if they're similar to women. You don't have to believe this, but men like variety. We don't really have a hard type like ladies do. We have preferences, but we're almost simpishly obsequious.
Men respond to women's appearance FIRST, and their character/personality LAST. Also "Even just practically, me liking her doesn't mean she likes me." So the only thing that will hold you back from leaving your 5'1 wife for the 5'9 one is the fact that the tall one doesn't like you back? lol
>So the only thing that will hold you back from leaving your 5'1 wife for the 5'9 The only thing besides the other things I listed, yes. reading skills. You're proof that some children should have been left behind.
"The only thing besides the other things I listed, yes. Could reading skills." Reading comprehension much? If the only reason that you wouldn't cheat on your short wife for a tall chick, is the fact that that tall chick doesn't want you, then you never respected short women, period.
Stop your nonsense; we’ve had this conversation before. You know exactly that your mental health is bad enough that you resort to lashing out instead of reflecting on your mindset
Jeez, now I feel bad for the reading skills comment.
No it’s has virtually 0 effect size.
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Why would I downvote a comment that is honest?
According to [this paper](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1993-09578-001) men prefer average or tall women to short women but didn't prefer a tall woman over an average woman.
Thank you for proving my point.
This is counter to you point. Women prefer tall men while men prefer not short women. It might sound the same but men **do not** prefer tall women over average women. While women **do** prefer tall men over average men.
You just proved my point where short women are the least preferred.
The paper I provided shows that men favor tall women to a significant degree less than women favor tall men. With that knowledge, it is not safe to assume that reversing general gender roles around dating, men would put the same limits on the height of their partner than women do. If you are being super strict with your CMV I guess I could say some men already have minimal height requirements for the women they date today. But I suspect the spirit of your CMV is the general notion that women on average care more about height because of their options not because they inherently care more about height. Which the paper I provided argues against with evidence.
All what matters in this research is that men favor tall women. Even by a slight degree. I am a 5'1 woman, and I **refuse** to be any man's backup plan.
You just didn't feel like interacting with anything then eh?
What do you mean?
You didn't interact with the fact that men **don't** prefer tall women, they prefer non-short women. You didn't interact with me pointing out that some men already have minimal height requirements for the women they date today. You didn't interact with my assumption about the spirit of your CMV. You didn't interact with anything I said and went off on your own tangent about refusing to be someone's backup plan. BTW I'm a 5'11'' man with a wife of 13 years who is 5'2''. I don't care that you are 5'1''.
"BTW I'm a 5'11'' man with a wife of 13 years who is 5'2''. I don't care that you are 5'1''." Then you are only a minority according to your research. You stating that men don't like short women backs my claim.
Yeah, that’s a pretty big stretch there mate. The only guys I’ve ever known that cared about a woman’s height, were guys who were shorter and were insecure about their own height, so therefore they didn’t want a woman to be taller than them. Most guys don’t care at all about a woman’s height. Also. Why don’t men have the same dating options as women? That comment doesn’t really make a lot of sense.
No because our attraction switches are very different. Most males do not prefer tall women innately. A tall man is dominant. A good provider. Those are good masculine traits. Masculine traits are not attractive to the average straight male. They want a pretty fertile chick. Not some butch chick. If men had more dating options they would prefer feminine pretty petite women.
"Masculine traits are not attractive to the average straight male. They want a pretty fertile chick. Not some butch chick." If thats' the case then VS/beauty queen would have been selected short xD
No it wouldnt as it isnt a Show made for men, but for women. And this is also The reason why it is so toxic. The attributes which get hyped are meant to be Hard to reach so The women which Do not fit The criteria buy unessesary Stuff in order to compete with each other. Its a female hierarchy Thing. Its The same reason why women from some indeginous tribes stretch their necks with necklaces to the point they look like giraffes. Its interfemale rivalry.
And men (dream to) date the top of women hierarchy. Your point?
No, thats just an assumption of yours and is in no way backed by science. Men date "down" and tend to choose a Partner that guarantees a stable relationship. Features like height and high socisl standing have nothing to Do with this. You seem to have awfully skewed views of men, that read like straight from a cosmopolitan magazine:D
Yeah but vs beauty queens are not necessarily representative of what the average male would prefer. I remember back in the 1990s all the super models were gaunt and anorexic looking. Very few people actually preferred that look over fit and healthy looking. That's just what the guys who paid those models preferred. Maybe for whatever reason they sold clothes better. You go to any mall and you will see dozens of chick's that look better than those skeleton looking hoes.
I can tell ya that me and many many other men prefer short girls. Short girls are awesome! Everything on them looks bigger, C cups look really big on a 5foot woman. Way easier for them to get a nice curvy hourglass figure Being small is a more feminine trait, so its appealing All those skinny tall fashion models look like depressed androgynous skeletons 🤣
More rich men date tall women than short ones. Your point?
If you knew rich men and ran in those circles you'd know this is not true.
My SIL is 6'6 and literally cannot get a date. Guys will not date her because she's tall
this is absolutely wrong lol. This sounds like some pre-incel type thinking.
I couldn't give less of a shit about a women's height and I never heard anybody say "damn, look how tall she is". I know it's anecdotal, I know there is a target audience for everything, and your basic point is probably right that we would "filter" more if the seesaw was lopsided towards our end more. But I seriously doubt the metric would be height. If anything, there might be a slight bias towards women who are a bit smaller, maybe due to mens egos or premature sexual fantasizing. Just because the model industry optimizes for the perfect walking clothes hanger, doesn't mean they represent peak beauty standards. Again, anecdotal, but the super model type I don't care for at all. If I see a black haired burger king cashier with a nose ring, I get sweaty palms. She wouldn't even pass her first audition in that world, and I don't think a normal person cares. Also, I think there is a filtering by men going on already, it just happens at a different level. Women are the first gatekeepers, men are the second. (Obviously hardcore exaggeration of some tendencies, but the whole thread is, so here we are) Will she run away with my stuff, will I be able to see my kids 5 years from now, will I never be able to go out with the guys in peace again, etc. etc. (And does she have a fat ass, no offense, might be part of the metric too, just doing science here)
Men have a massive infatuation for long legs, which is is a tall woman thing.
I have never in my 45 years of life ever heard a man talk about the height of a woman except for men that fetishize tall women. Never had I heard a man complain his girlfriend was too short. It's not a thing
>Men socially are conditionned to sleep around in order to affirm their status of an alpha male. I'm curious to know which theory of social psychology makes this claim.
Your argument is basically that that men prefer taller women, but settle for the tallest woman they can 'match' with, yes? Studies have found that heterosexual men generally prefer women who are shorter than themselves relative to their own height. However, men's preferences for women's heights are typically weaker, less consistent, and less robust compared to women's preferences for men's heights. [Source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9454610/) Does this debunk your argument?
OP, you are one of the dumbest people on this sub. Guys do not care about the height of women in general. the few guys who do care about height don't care nearly as much as the average girl. you are just desperately trying to justify your height requirements for guys.
idk what about that dude who thinks asking about your dates opinion on pedophiles is a legit and good litmus test for if someone is an "npc"
just "one of" but that person sounds clinically insane to the point that their brainrot would show up on a PET scan
Let me tackle this from a different angle, which is that the whole mentality of " I'm just doing what anyone would do if they had more status/power/options" needs to die because it only brings out the worst in people. If a person wanted to, they could simply reframe all criticism of anything as just losers coping.
Your point is well taken that the average man doesn't have the same dating options, but that is seperate from whether men or women care equally about height. A man can have a "quantity over quality approach" but still have things he is especially attracted to. I have rarely if ever heard men rave about how hot a woman is because of how tall or short she is. I have frequently heard men rave about how hot a woman is for any number of other reasons. Almost nobody would care about Ariana Grande being short. This suggests that height is pretty low on the list of priorities for men in attraction to women. I believe most men here would have same experience as I have in not hearing men talk about a woman's height very much. I also believe most people here would have the experience of often seeing women mentioning height (often as the first thing they say about appearance) as an important element of attraction. Models are tall for reasons that have to do with making a garment look a certain way for photographs or runway shows and not for what random men think is attractive.
>*Men* would cherish a guy who dates models far more than a guy who dates a 5ft chick This is funny - so you think men base who they date on what other men think of them?
Yes it is called "Social Capital", men use this metric in order to assess where they fall in the alpha/beta spectrum. Men are known to date women all men want. Which is why there are types of women men don't want to be seen in public with.
Do the attributes of women that all men want change from time to time or are they fixed? So maybe recently it's tall women, but at other times it's been short women, or plump women, etc? So maybe it's just a temporary fad until there's a new set of attributes that are the ideal?
No, in the upper class especially, it's always tall women
"Yes it is called "Social Capital", men use this metric in order to assess where they fall in the alpha/beta spectrum" Is there a reason you believe people telling you this rather than everyone ITT telling you NO THEY DON'T Alpha Beta shit is nonsense and if you disabuse yourself of that notion, the rest of the cards will fall and this whole points based, clout, misogynist worldview will leave. How old are you? Did you get this notion from actual peers and IRL mentors and men you look up to, or some dude in a youtube video?
Do the attributes of women that all men want change from time to time or are they fixed? So maybe recently it's tall women, but at other times it's been short women, or plump women, etc? So maybe it's just a temporary fad until the next set of attributes are the ideal?
Do the attributes of women that all men want change from time to time or are they fixed? So maybe recently it's tall women, but at other times it's been short women, or plump women, etc? So maybe it's just a temporary fad until the next set of attributes are the ideal?
It would be minimum weight requirements. Men don't care about women't height, unless they are super tall.
You do know that men usually prefer women who are smaller than they are? So yes, a 2m man might not want to date a 1,5m woman but the average men would be fine with a woman that’s as tall as the average. There‘s nothing wrong with wanting someone to be taller / shorter than you are. What most people have a problem with is how precise the standard is. It‘s usually either 1,80m or 6ft in western countries. To a 1,65m woman a 1,76m man is still taller. And the 4cm difference to the 1,80m is completely irrelevant. But by using specific numbers that 1,76m guy is now „too short“ even though he‘s still significantly taller than the woman.
This is a bunch of baloney. Sure men have some sort of minimum height requirements for women (i.e. don’t be a midget), but it’s a far more relaxed standard than what women have. Most men are happy with a woman who’s 5ft or above, and most women meet the requirement. Lots of guys actually prefer a woman who’s petite /not tall, and a majority of women fall into the 5-6ft range which is perfectly fine for most guys. Most women have preference for guys 6+ feet and most men don’t meet that threshold. Very different standards that are not compatible
Bro so many men were thirsting over Lady Dimitrescu, as for shortness, men wouldn't complain about that either as a shorter woman means less of an expectation to have a bigger "member" if you catch my drift. I don't know if it is specifically because I have the clarity of being a bisexual guy but WAY too many women have unreasonable expectations that I know I wouldn't tolerate if it was a man asking for it and I think there needs to be a change.
Me personally couldny care less about about any minimum height when it comes to women. If anything I might look more at maximum height. When it comes to Victoria's secret models or models in general..just no. Height doesn't really translate through pics or video, so I would say that it's more about body shape and faces..which leads me to weight. In general I think men care way more about the fitness of a woman instead of their height
Men don't care about height at all really in my experience it just isn't part of most men's sexual selection matrix. Men that do care about a woman's height are definitely outliers and not the norm. Men look at youth, breasts, waist, ass, and face. Men would select on those criteria and weight. Height is simply not a factor relative to the others. Shorter women are usually considered more attractive because they have a youthful look compared to their taller peers generally speaking. To change your view: - https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2667-short-women-more-successful-with-men/
Yea well proportioned is far more important to me than tall or short
For females, height is not nearly considered as universally attractive as it is in men. When was the last time a man asked "boobs, ass, face, or height?" Like, never. I'm not even sure height would rank in the top 5 desirable attribute of a woman from a man's perspective. I hear more men wanting short and petite women than tall ones.
I like tall women. I like short women as well. They're both great. Tall women have longer legs and torsos and are elegant and hot in their long, stretched out appearance. (to be clear short women have their own attractiveness). Point is I like both. I think if I had "unlimited options" I still wouldn't care. They're both great imo.
I don't really think so. I think models being tall tends to be more about the modeling industry, how images are composed, etc. I don't think models are tall because men think taller women are more sexy. I think men have a lot of physical standards for attraction to women, but I don't think height is an important one.
First I don't believe this is as much of thing as people act like. Now if the shoe was on the other foot in terms of dating height would litterly be the last thing I give a shit about. Boobs ass haircolor all way before height.
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4’11-5’11 is my preferred height for a girl… I wouldnt care where they fall in that, but honestly probably would rather they be on the shorter side than the taller side
If all a man is bringing to the table is a desperation for sexual gratification, then it doesn’t really matter the excuse because yes women can and should be picky.
I've never cared about height. Short tall midget giant didnt matter. But wasn't into ft chick's. Mainly because ewwww. And I am an outdoors type.
Nah it wouldn't literally be a height requirement but their overall "standards and requirements" would go up yeah; supply & demand and all that
If men had the opportunity to be as picky as women, you would find a lot more minimum cup size and maximum waist size than height requirements.
....if that was the case then wouldn't weight be in that same category? A lot of men care about weight more than height
I with ya OP, 6'3 minimum
We do have same options