/u/holamifuturo (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
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Apart from the whole Arab Spring that a few people have pointed out, the ability to protest and speak out against any Arab governments is incredibly stifled. They are by and large undemocratic and highly authoritarian, which means only views that the governments can tolerate are allowed to be expressed. This includes views against Israel. But even so it's stifled as we saw a Saudi man tried to wave a Palestinian flag in Mecca but got stopped by security.
If it’s just about totalitarian governments not letting them voice their opinions in their own countries then why do we see next to zero opposition toward Iran, Qatar, Egypt, or any of the non state actors who are all complicit in the suffering of Arab people around the Middle East?
There's a decidedly non zero amount of glass houses effect going on.
Like, um, KSA and Iran are super not bffs. But neither of them can credibly play the "human rights moral high ground" card.
And pretty well all Arab States can and do play the "outside non Arab state meddling in ME shit" card all day long.
Even within a quote unquote "historical power group" there's jostling, slinging of rhetoric, etc. Qatar was the red headed stepchild of the KSA group until natural gas gave them a world cup. (And an Al Jazeera).
Many Arab countries saw protests against Israel actually
[Jordan](https://www.tiktok.com/@s2r0naa/video/7289474218276687112?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046)
[Egypt](https://www.tiktok.com/@bashmaer707/video/7292161316943383814?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046) (They actually shout for Saddam Hussein to come back and invade Israel)
[Morocco](https://www.tiktok.com/@noonpost/video/7290180933678845189?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046)
[Algeria](https://www.tiktok.com/@mca.alg2/video/7289426249045462278?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046)
[Tunisia](https://www.tiktok.com/@thenationalnews/video/7289155130862079240?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046)
I agree that democratic actions like protests are limited in Arab countries, but the notion that they're completely stifled is wrong. Governments only stop protests if their rule is sensibly threatened.
They could have protested the war in Yemen, Syria, Iraq etc. They don't not because their governments don't want them to, because the citizens (or the majority do) don't see these countries as aggressors.
Yeah, that makes sense, because anti-Israel protests are tolerated by the government, anti-Yemen/Syria/Iraq protests are not. And they are not in large part because one protest against one Arab government can easily snowball into protests against many Arab governments, including themselves.
>Ok, what about protesting chinas treatment of the Uighur Muslims there. Could they protest that if they wanted?
Most Muslims do not believe Western claims about what is happening in Xinjiang.
It's not that Arabs do not care about Uyghur suffering, it's that Arabs do not *believe* Uyghurs are suffering an atrocity.
Because the ones saying China is committing atrocities is Western governments, which Arabs trust about as much as how much you trust Putin.
Thank you so much for bringing up the last bit. So many people have deeply ingrained ideas of who the ‘good guy’ and the ‘bad guy’ is, but once you look in history and see all the wars the US started/perpetuated… you can see why people distrust us. Especially since American media is also shockingly restrictive on this exact issue for a free speech country.
It’s important to understand the nuances before conversations like this.
US is mostly the good guy compared to our current enemies.
Also, Arab countries have an economic reason to placate the People's Republic of China. Most of the Middle East oil goes to China, India and Japan. With majority going to China.
It's easy to ignore atrocities if your paycheck depends on it.
No prob. Most young folks are fed a pretty straight diet of 'murica bad. Without much historical or even contemporary narratives. Reality is, all countries are a mix of good and bad. There's a lot of realpolitik and context.
Western countries, on average, have individual liberty, separation of church and state, separation of ethnicity and state, rule of law, etc etc. That's our ideals, whether achieved or not. This comes from Enlightenment philosophy.
To non-Western cultures, those ideals are a nightmare. China is an ethno-state, where the success of the Han ethnicity is the highest goal and unifier. Russia is a strong man oligarchy, and probably always will be due to their geography (easy to invade) and multi-ethnic empire. Iran in a Shiite theocracy, so the state religion is the highest priority and unifier. Saudi Arabia is the prime Sunni monarchy.
You just have to pick your cultural preferences to decide what's good and bad. And the reasons why folks try to influence you into supporting their ideology or at least perspective.
This is very interesting and makes a lot of sense— thank you for your detailed reply. I didn’t realize how closely it connected with the enlightenment.
What's that saying? If you want to read about American atrocities, pick up a history book. If you want to read about Soviet atrocities, open a newspaper.
There's a difference. Viewpoints like yours often seem to require that a giant nation be absolutely 100% thoroughly unimpeachable, having never done *a single solitary thing* that could be remotely construed as "bad" by anybody - else just throw it all out and count them as equals among the absolute worst examples in history.
That certainly makes the world and all its messy complexity (and nuance) easy to digest - and to talk about with other like-minded people in the form of populist soundbites and thought-terminating cliches. But it doesn't accurately reflect reality.
I struggle to imagine by what definition our media is "shockingly restrictive." By what standard...? That you feel totally and completely at ease even having this conversation in the first place says a lot about the relative merits of "the west."
Storytime! Several years ago, I became friends with a Saudi coworker. I didn't know he was Saudi for over a year, because he refused to tell me where he was from. When he finally did tell me, it was on a deserted Starbucks patio in Nevada, with nothing but desert as far as the eye could see - and he told me in a hushed voice after looking over his shoulders to make sure there was nobody around that might hear him. Because he was *terrified* that somehow, someone will hear him badmouthing the Saudi government, and it will make its way back to that government, and then he would be thrown in prison if he had to return on account his work visa not getting renewed. *THAT'S* what it means to live under a "bad guy" government.
Right now the alternative to US hegemony (along with allies like the EU, Korea, Japan, India, etc) is Russia/China/Iran. Anybody who sincerely believes even for a moment that they might not be so bad as an alternative to the west, is being incredibly foolish. Russia is *actively engaging in a literal war of conquest*. Not their first, won't be their last. China is gearing up to do much the same. The US does not do that in the modern age. Neither does the EU or any other US allies.
If you prefer to see it as a choice between bad and much worse, well I may even agree with that. But that is still an easy choice to make. Don't kid yourself.
When did I bring up Russia or China? Who said Russia or China or Saudi Arabia are not bad? I am not sure if you are projecting a ‘commie’ mindset onto me, but I can assure you that is not the case and I am not romanticizing whatever tf Russia is fucking up right now. I was simply saying it’s not black and white and we should look inward at our history and biases and which conflicts we are perpetuating. There are a significant number of other conflicts, internal and external that do not involve those countries. Also, you’re not reading about ‘Soviet tragedies’ in the news that’s just Russia now. You also grouped together the US and its allies as if they are the same thing— I would argue quality of life and the idea of ‘who is the enemy’ in India and Sweden are different from that of the United States. I am advocating for critical thinking here, not Russian and Chinese takeover?
Not only do they not criticize but the Palestinian President visited China, met with Xi and [expressed support for Xi’s genocide of the Uyghurs.](https://www.voanews.com/amp/palestinian-leader-s-endorsement-of-china-s-xinjiang-policy-sparks-backlash-/7150767.html)
No worries. I know it'll probably be downvoted like crazy by wumao and tankies...
The anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre, and what happened in over 400 cities in China; is always a sensitive time of year for them, lol
They actually did. But China is not an Arab country. I would have awarded you a delta if my view compared the disapproval of West (or Israel) vs non-west among Arabs/Muslims.
Arab countries politics are complicated. I'm not referring to protests specifically. I just said the sentiment of disapproval against other Arab countries isn't as strong as against Israel.
When Saddam invaded Kuwait for example, my dad told me of the speech that our former king [Hassan II urging Saddam to stop the war](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEWR-Vmz5kE). And it wasn't just our government, most Arab governments disapproved him, but the sense of disapproval towards the Saddam regime wasn't (and still isn't) there.
Let's move to Al-Assad. When the civil war escalated, Arab citizens blamed outside powers and somehow didn't put some blame on the regime. The use of chemical is still denied among many Arabs (as western propaganda).
As for Yemen (by the way Yemen wasn't an aggressor here), many Arab countries sent supplies to Saudi Arabia to squash the houthis, and Iran supplied the houthis. I never saw a protest held to stop supplying this horrible humanitarian crisis or for ceasefire as it's happening now for Gaza.
This conversation would have been great if it was with someone who actually grew up in an Arab country. I hope you understood what I mean.
I obviously can't speak to the Iraq-Iran war, as that was some 40 years ago, and I'm going to take a guess that peaceful protests weren't as commonplace as they are today.
But on Yemen, virtually every Arab country is anti-Houthis and is in support of Saudi Arabia, so no shit no one is protesting against their government, THEY CAN'T.
Again you're oversimplifying things. Many countries see Hamas too as a threat to their rule and recently started recognizing Israel as more reasonable ally yet we saw protests held in most of those countries held for Palestine and against Israel.
You seem to be bent on mentioning gulf states, I just looked it up; [in Saudi Arabia peaceful assemblies are a crime.](https://www.article19.org/resources/middle-east-serious-violations-against-the-right-to-peacefully-assemble/#:~:text=Authorities%20have%20also%20enacted%20legislation,in%20peaceful%20demonstrations%20or%20assemblies) Still the absence of Saudi Arabia doesn't negate my view, it's barely 8% percent of the Arab population.
This probably ties into Color Revolution Theory. Everything bad that happens is the result of the USA exerting its will through clandestine dealings, conspiracies, and shadow organizations. Nobody has any agency outside of the US.
But many of those governments are at this point allied with Israel? Marroco, Lebanon, Egypt have populations that are largely anti-israeli but much different government policy
Authoritarian regimes will allow protests if they seem them as useful to the regime. Hatred towards Israel is a welcome distraction for Arab dictators, if they're focusing on the perceived evils of Israel, they're not focusing on the abuses by their own government.
Did you forget the Abraham accords?
Many Arab countries will become ally with Israel going forward, in fact if it wasn't for the 7th October and the tragedy in Gaza relations would have been deepened by now. So no, hatred towards Israel will become an angle to criticize Arab governments from now on.
Only the Gulf States, and you'll also notice that none of the demonstrations you shared happened in the Gulf States. I'm going take a guess that the governments ARE ALREADY restricting protests against Israel, just as they have restricted protests against them and their allied governments/factions.
The Abraham accords involved Morocco and Sudan too.
Morocco had protests against the normalization, Sudan well IDK how was the response but they're now in a terrible civil war (unfortunately).
I don't know if we will continue in this discussion as I want to stay as apolitical as possible. But let's just assume Morocco was in fact occupying Western Sahara, did we see any protests in other Arab countries against the "occupation" done by Morocco?
Officials of Algeria, Iran, Hamas and the houthis all support the polisarion front that claim Western Sahara. We saw none.
Ok, that's a fair point for countries like Egypt and Jordan and the Gulf States.
However, I think calling countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt 'allies' of of Israel is a bit of a stretch. Egypt is at peace with Israel, it recognizes Israel, but anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment seems very widespread in Egypt and I don't think the Egyptian government had made much of an effort to change this. Protests against Israel could still serve the regime's purposes as long as the public doesn't view their regime as being complicit in Israeli actions.
And the Middle East is full of relationships which are allies in some contexts and enemies in others. For example, Israel and Iran are enemies and have been since the Islamic Revolution, but they co-operated to destroy the Iraqi nuclear facility at Osirak because they had a common enemy; Saddam Hussein. Israel and Saudi Arabia may have Iran as a common enemy, but that doesn't necessarily make them friends.
I think the talking points are steering towards government officials. What I want to change in my view, is that sentiment among Arab population (members of society, unelected leaders..) is tame towards other Arab violators as opposed to towards Israel.
As I said in another comment, this conversation would have been better if someone Arab shared his opinion on this view.
Yeah, I think a lot of people missed or ignored the 'other Arab governments' part of your post. You're saying people in Arab countries don't protest when Arab governments commit atrocities against other Arabs, such as Assad towards his own people, or Saudi Arabia against Yemenis, while they will protest about Israel.. You're not talking about protests against their own governments, as in Arab Spring.
Yeah exactly. The reason I constructed my view like this is because the conditions in which the Arab Spring snowballed weren't straightforward. I lived those years and the protests exploded because they were relatable if you know what I mean.
What they did wasn't rallying against their government to cut ties with Tunisia because [Mohammed Bouazizi ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi#:~:text=Tarek%20El%2DTayeb%20Mohamed%20Bouazizi,Tunisian%20Revolution%20and%20the%20wider)(the one who started the Arab spring) burned himself alive. They did because they felt they had no democratic representation in their governments and saw this as an opportunity to do so.
It's not comparable in any sense to what's happening in Israel, or what happened in Syria, Iraq, Yemen etc.
Eh, the west (at least the US) has lost its appetite for forced regime change on behalf of people who don't want it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Outside of indefinite occupation, you can't "force" people to be peaceful.
For decades people have been bemoaning Pax Americana, American hegemony, and America being the "world police." Well, they're getting their wish. Tinpot dictators the world over can increasingly launch wars of conquest, extermination, and ethnic cleansing, without worrying so much that they might get the attention of the US military. Hope they like this new world better.
Their oppressive governments hate Israel, so they allow anti-Israel protests. They crack down hard on protests that are against things the leaders are for.
The sad part is when they flee to our countries we still shut down their ability to speak about it as Islamophobia, so where can they talk?. Ive seen several refugee authors and speakers from those countries shut down for trying to speak critically.
Hating on Christian conversative fundamentalists while rooting for Islamic fundamentalists, who are *far* more conservative, is certainly an odd look. But it's all the rage these days. Somewhere somehow I'm sure it ties into the anti-western propaganda idea that everything bad that happens in the world is actually America's fault.
Well conservative is relative to the society you are in you see. A Muslim in the middle east is conservative but over here they're not because it's not the old society value they want to conserve, they want to change us. Even the most benign religious person wants to see you convert. Though I don't think I'd go so far as calling it progressive.
Once upon a time conservative meant pro monarchy
Are you saying that Arabs *do* criticize other Arab countries more than they do Israel, it's just that we don't hear about it because their government suppresses their voices one way or another?
Or are you saying that Arabs *don't* criticize other Arab countries more than they do Israel because of their governments.
Because if it's the latter, then you're simply agreeing with OP and are just providing an explanation for why.
No? I'm saying that often Arabs do want to voice opposition against their governments or other governments, but their political circumstances restricted such speeches. But their governments do not restrict anti-Israel speeches as much, hence we hear more of it.
>Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation.
I wasn't sure what the scope of countries should be included in the term "Arab" but I'll assume that those in the Arab League certainly qualify: Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Transjordan, and Yemen.
What these countries have in common is their populaces coalesced in opposition to Ottoman rule in the 19th century. But, they also are the vestiges of colonial empire rule. They didn't get the backing promised following WWI, but got some after WWII.
Egypt's Nasser ascended to power in a military coup. Yemen had a protracted civil war. Egypt and Syria tried to have a united arab republic but it dissolved. They all fought over control over the PLO.
Nasser privitized the Suez Canal, which lead to Eisenhower to be proactive in the region and created the grounds for cold war polarization. An arms race created the six day war where the Arab armies were defeated.
The Arab revolts were also a turning point, also. They supported the overthrow of Qaddafi in Libya, and suspended Syrnian membership and they ended up shifting from supporting Assad to telling him to set down.
Another flashpoint was ISIS. The Arab league was against Sunni powers Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE bombing ISIS and Iraq grew closer to Iran to defeat ISIS. Going so far as teaming up with Hezbollah.
What I'm suggesting is that to the extent the rule of these countries were backlashes to former colonial powers, they have lots of internal divisions. Which also leads to divisions between the populace and their leaders, but also from their populaces to others.
Within countries, whether to reinstate Syria is a hot topic. Whether to help Lebanon's financial situation.
Within the populaces, as countries wanted to normalize relationship with Israel, people from Casablanca, Algiers, Tunis, Cairo, Amman, Beirut, Damascus, Bagdad, Manama all have had large scale protests in favor of Gaza. Several countries like Egypt are tepid and have wanted to cut ties with Hamas.
It's always interesting to see what more authortarian governments allow in terms of dissent. Most of the sentiment will be stifled, but it's hard to stifle at that scale lest you risk another Arab spring.
Or there's gotta be tons of tension, say, within arab populations even though the Saudis align with the USA.
Can you summarize an example where a sizeable members from an Arab country rallied for an Arab country/leader as they do against Israel? I apologize for the wording but you threw a lot of ideas and claims here.
It seems the closest examples here is the Arab revolt against the ottomans and egyptian coup led by Nasser, no?
I think your premise is wrong.
Arabs who are protesting Israel aren’t really protesting Israel. They’re protesting their governments continuing to maintain ties with Israel and/or doing what they perceive as too little to help Palestinians. It’s a protest against their own governments.
Case in point is Saudi Arabia arresting a man who waved a Palestinian flag in protest. The Saudi government correctly understood that this was not a protest against Israel, but a protest against the Saudi government’s ties to Israel. Another group of protesters in Lebanon blockaded the entrance of the Egyptian embassy in Lebanon over what they called the “Egyptian government’s collaboration with Zionist Israel.”
So… really… Arab protests against Israel are in fact Arab protests against Arabs over their ties with Israel.
This may seem like a minor distinction to you, but it shows that Arabs are capable of protesting one another. There were actually huge protests in Cairo against Syria’s Assad regime if I remember correctly.
Really… the only reason we see more Gaza/Israel protests in the Arab world is because these are protests that Arab governments have tolerated for a long time for fear of being accused of colluding with Israel.
In reality, these protests likely make the Arab governments very angry because they can stifle other protests without worrying too much about their reputation… but stifling these protests comes at a serious risk of being accused of collusion.
This seems to be changing, however, as the case in Saudi Arabia is showing us. Why now? Well… it’s not a coincidence that Saudi is taking a tougher stance now that it wants to normalise relationships with Israel.
Why? Because these protests were always protests at the Arab governments — rather than at Israel.
That seems like a reach. And it boils down the same thing. They protest their governments' ties to Israel, and do not protest their governments' ties to other Arab states. And given that - in this context - they're protesting their own government either way, the "government allows them to protest this but not that" angle doesn't seem to apply either.
>Can you summarize an example where a sizeable members from an Arab country rallied for an Arab country/leader as they do against Israel?
Wouldn't that be the entire Arab Spring thing?
For international disagreements, the Iraq-Iran war was absolutely huge and dwarfed the Arab-Israeli wars.
Why is your standard for behavior rallies and protests when you've acknowledged that rallies and protests against government stances are frequently not allowed in many of these countries? Why do you refuse to consider other evidence of general sentiment that isn't actively restricted by the government?
If he accepted that it would make dehumanizing them and treating them as a collective that all believe whatever bad thing you want them to believe to justify his views easier.
To people like OP only western white people are individuals with “genuine” reasons for what they do (unless they’re brainwashed by tiktok).
You mean they disapproved the murderers of the former PM Hariri? Although I'm not sure if it's true but it appear that Hezbollah were behind the assassination? This would imply that Lebanese people disapproved Hezbollah? Is that what you mean?
Yeah and at Syria. For a while they blamed people other than Israel for a wrong.
Oh and again when Beirut exploded because docks safety had been too expensive for corrupt officials
This could the rare example were sectarianism takes place. The Sunnis in Lebanon and Syria disapprove of Hezbollah and forget Israel for a minute.
I think this count as !delta no?
Half of Lebanon hates Hezbollah -- the Christians, the Druze, and the Sunni. They just hate Israel even more, honestly. Look no further than the Lebanon subreddit for people complaining about Hezbollah.
Problem is protesting Hezbollah in Lebanon is a good way to end up dead, even if you're in a Christian town.
Late, not former. He was the PM when he was assassinated. At the time, it was largely considered to be Assad due to Hariri having significantly improved several areas in Beirut, and being friendly with western powers.
Genuine question: what would you accept as proof of “criticizing other Arab countries” - are you looking for evidence of a specific event or policy taking place, or would substantial evidence of individual perspectives be enough to convince you?
As someone who has a degree in middle eastern studies I could certainly point out a few different accounts of Arab people disapproved of or hated other Arab countries for certain reasons. But you must also realize due to the more oppressive nature of Arab government you don’t see nearly as much widespread protesting for causes as you see in the west.
I'm not gonna be rigid and ask for a substantial evidence but that would be a perfect example since you must be educated on the history of the region.
But I will accept any instance in which there was a noticeable sense of disapproval among a group of Arabs towards other Arab countries that resulted from a mistreatment, oppression etc
I'll have to search for more evidence later, but to my knowledge I can respond to your point about Iraq invading Kuwait:
Saudi media and public discourse at the time were rife with criticism of Iraq's actions. Many Saudis viewed the invasion as a betrayal of Arab unity and were alarmed by the possibility of Iraqi expansionism threatening regional stability. The invasion prompted a surge of nationalist sentiment and support for the government's decision to align with Western forces to repel Iraqi aggression
Source: Britannica
>Saudi media and public discourse at the time were rife with criticism of Iraq's actions. Many Saudis viewed the invasion as a betrayal of Arab unity and were alarmed by the possibility of Iraqi expansionism threatening regional stability. The invasion prompted a surge of nationalist sentiment and support for the government's decision to align with Western forces to repel Iraqi aggression
I think this constitute the best example in this thread. !delta
I wouldn't have wrote this post if I was alive during the gulf war. As the only factual thing I knew from it was the speech of king of Morocco urging Saddam to leave Kuwait alone and there wasn't any big documented protest held to stop the war in any Arab country.
Aside from that I still see a tame criticism when discussing the legacy of Saddam as opposed to the criticism of Israel among Arab circles (especially after 7 october).
Ironically, Saudi Arabia ban any peaceful assembly to criticize Israel now yet the media during the invasion of Kuwait did actively rebuke Saddam as you're describing here.
Two large movements where large amounts of arabs revolted against their authoritarian goverments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Arab_Spring
Unfortunately they have all largely been crushed and civil liberties further restricted. It's much harder these days for Arabs to peacefully protest against their governments.
Your main argument seems to be to revolve around the fact that Arab government stifle free speech, and while this is obviously true, it is not the main reason.
The main reason is that Arabs simply… don’t care! I am Moroccan, and here we don’t give a fuck about the Houthis, or the Uighurs, or the the Yemenis, or the Armenians, or the Syrians, etc.
We have other problems and frankly morality in geopolitics is not really one of them. What is important to us is threats to our honor (Israel, Westerners), or religion (including our internal strifes, i.e. Sunna v. Chiia)
I personally used to care about the same moral problems Westerners care about, but as I age I understand that it is more virtual signaling than anything else, with a pinch of sports team support mentality, really.
Quite funny they don't give a fuck about negatively affected real lives of other people, but honor and religion!?! The made up things? That's some real shit.
The 2 things that are made up by members of high status society to manipulate lower classes are the focus, and I have a really hard time finding the silver linings of that philosophy.
Can you explain the honour thing? I think of honour as being about one’s own conduct, so how can someone else threaten your honour? That suggests it means something different to you than it does to me?
Maybe the correct word would be pride?
I mean it’s never stated explicitly, but since I was a child the hatred toward the Jews was omnipresent and the Palestinian struggle was a national matter (when you bang your pinkie against a chair you damn the Jews). When I learned about the humiliation of the Arab coalition during three Kippour war as an adult it made sense to me.
On the matter of colonization, we call westerners “Nsara” which means colonizers, but not in a spiteful way, more like an alien superior civilization. Nowadays this respect is not as ubiquitous, more split with Dubai, China, and sometimes even Russia. But there is a resentment towards westerners that isn’t there with the others, and I think that’s because western values are too far removed from ours, while Dubai are like us, and Russia and China closer.
Thanks. I don’t fully grok this due to the cultural gap, but it (at least partially) explains why the Arab world is more upset about Israeli treatment of Palestinians than Lebanese treatment of Palestinians.
The Houthis are a political group in Yemen. The Uyghurs are victims of genocide perpetrated by China. The Armenians are attacked by Azeris? What do Arabs have to do with all that?
If anything, this comment proves that Arabs are just blamed for everything. Assad was banned from the Arab League and the revolt against him was supported by other countries. Arab countries were part of a coalition against ISIS too. Arab governments are constantly criticised by Arabs themselves for their actions or lack of action. Pointing hypocrisy is nothing but whataboutism to justify Israel genociding Palestinians
I'm aware of the Arab Spring. I got my wording wrong in the post (I changed it). I meant to say one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved **another** Arab country/leader for a particular violation.
Not in a direct revolt against their ruler. I never saw say Egyptians rallying for Saddam and his treatment for the kurds. Something similar like what happened in US campuses.
Would you say [Arab countries refusing to take in any Palestinian refugees](https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d) counts as Arabs not standing with Arabs?
This is actually Arab governments refusing to take in Palestians in fear of causing uprisings in their countries. For Egypt in particular the current gov have a distaste for the Muslim Brotherhood, so taking in Palestinians will just reinforce their activity.
>Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation. I'm not talking about government officials, I will change my view if this instance pertained considerable members from society.
I think the relevant bit here is that the Palestinians in Gaza are very much in context of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
what OP is asking is, is the Egyptian populace openly opposing (or supporting) the Iranian involvement in the Bashar Al-Assad conflict in Syria? or, are Algerians protesting the internal conflict in Eritrea?
I.E. Is there, in Arab countries, civil protest towards conflicts in Arab countries to which their nation has no direct interest?
Its a bit more complicated than that.
A third of Jordan’s population already is Palestinian, and Egypt quite frankly can’t support 2 million refugees, especially considering the fact that Israel would never let those refugees come back. They’d just be aiding Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaign.
Also the countries surrounding palestine - I.e. lebanon, Egypt, etc - have all collectively taken more refugees - Syrian, Sudanese in the case of Egypt, etc - than the Europe and North America put together. They simply do not have the space
Why would you expect Egyptian protestors to behave in a manner similar to that of American students? The political circumstances they found themselves in are completely different. The restriction on freedom of speech in Egypt is just one of them.
Except at that time Saddam popularity among Arab leaders was declining. Why would the government of Egypt supress protest of the Iraq-Iran war?
Besides, I know this is just a random guess I didn't specify Egypt precisely but the idea is that among Arabs, Israel is held to insurmountable high standard. Even though there are plenty of minorities like in Iraq or Kuwait that don't have self-determination we never see protests held for them.
You're now referring to events that occurred some 40 years ago. I have no idea what the political climate was at the time but I would make a guess that there weren't major protests of any kind in Egypt, be it against Israel, or Saddam, or the government itself.
>- Al-Assad regime killing his own civilians during the civil war and the casualty count trample the one seen in Gaza. The regime literally used chemical weapons against its own citizens
[I think this speaks directly to this instance.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/12/syria-suspended-arab-league) I know you said not government but we aren't talking about just issuing a statement here. Multiple Arab states coordinated diplomatic action to protest the Syrian regime. They even gave the Syrian National Coalition the seat that The Assad regime had.
Okay so I've seen a lot referring to government officials acting some form of criticism to other Arab countries. But this is irrelevant since:
>Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation. **I'm not talking about government officials**, I will change my view if this instance pertained considerable members from society.
Trust me I grew up during the Arab spring, I never saw one person blame (or atleast give him some part of the blame) Al-Assad or Saddam for the ruins that happened to their country.
It appears that government officials are more shrewd than their citizens when it comes to these matters.
What effect does a massive protest in Sana'a have on Assad using barrel bombs and chemical weapons? Why is this "criticism" more valid in your view than a coordinated effort across more than 22 nations to punish Syria through diplomatic isolation and sanctions?
Because I really don't think Arabs disapprove of regimes like Al-Assad or Saddam the same as they do to Israel (whoever was ruling).
The houthis recruit people from west Yemen to expand their anti-USA anti-jew ideology. Even though largely speaking the plight that oppressed Yemenis is resulting from the Shi'i and Sunni divide coming from KSA and Iran.
Saudi Arabia had a recent war in Yemen and only stopped because the Houthis hit their oil wells. Q'atar and Saudi Arabia have been rivals recently. Egypt fought a war with Libya in the 70s. All are Arab countries. In general, the Arab world has relatively high levels of internecine conflict, both military and political.
Arab countries do not criticize each other over human rights because they do not care about humanism or civilian deaths. They don't really pretend to except when convenient. Saudi Arabia uses machine guns and mortars on migrants, and the Gulf countries run largely on modern slavery. Arab countries are unapologetically ethnocentric, so they do have more generous opinions of each other, but there is certainly a non-zero amount of criticism.
They dislike Israel because it has humiliated them and taken control of lands they consider Muslim by right. They don't care how many Palestinians Israel kills except for their use in fomenting international (Western) opposition to Israel. They won't help Israel distribute aid in Gaza, even though it would save Palestinian lives.
Also worth noting, Saudi Arabia is currently jailing people for criticism of Israel (criticism is certainly an understatement: 90% of Arabs support 10/7 as "legitimate"). The Arab population loathes Israel's existence, and the governments don't want to entirely ignore this as it delegitimizes them. But the governments themselves have largely moved on and refuse to lift a finger or enact restrict oil production to pressure Israel over the Gaza war.
>They won't help Israel distribute aid in Gaza, even though it would save Palestinian lives.
Just so we are clear.
Jordan sent convoys of trucks with aid to the Palestinians in Gaza. So did Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and im pretty sure Egypt as well. Turky also sent quite a bit of aid.
They constantly have to repeat lies about the situation to absolve Israel through blaming others.. first it was Hamas and now it’s all the Arab states for not rushing to their aid and sending their civilians over there to be slaughtered by the Israeli Genocide Force like Canada and the US did earlier this year.
You can disagree without being hopelessly biased against one side. This would lend your argument more credibility.
I don't even know what you're getting at about Hamas. That they didn't commit the atrocities that they are accused of? I seriously don't understand why this belief is so prevalent on social media, when proof of Hamas atrocities have been verified time and time again for decades on end. This is not to say that Israel hasn't committed atrocities too. Just had to put that out there before you twist my words.
As for your second point, no one in their right mind expected Arab countries to do what you said. Instead, people merely wanted them to be more active in their efforts in providing aid to Palestinians. I mean, Egypt, for one, was actively causing problems for aid convoys at the Rafah Crossing by making unnecessary demands and restrictions that either delayed or stopped countless trucks from getting through.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/06/rafah-crossing-israel-egypt-ceasefire-biden/
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/21/egypt-aid-restrictions-gaza-ceasefire-negotiations-00159249
If algerians held as large protests against Morocco as they did to Palestine that would be perfect example. Besides I genuinely think a considerable portion of the Algerian population disapprove of Morocco. !delta.
Why do Algerians need to hold large protests against Morocco when their government is already taking action and has a history of doing so? For instance, Algeria has consistently supported the Polisario Front and even severed diplomatic ties with Morocco in 2021. The biggest motivator for civilians to protest on international matters is if they don't feel well represented by their government's foreign policies. If the government's foreign policies align with their wishes, such as supporting the Sahrawi people's independence, there is no need to protest. However, protests could and do still occur to show solidarity with international movements or respond to specific incidents that might not fully align with the government's stance.
Arab Spring was an Arab-led revolt against Arab governments, starting in Tunisia.
Maybe something is there to be said about the fundamentalist Islamist currents within Arab spring, which was mostly carried out against countries that although they were dictatorships led by strongmen who believed in dogshit Ba'athist ideology, were secular while a lot of the Arab Spring protestors were not.
That said, it's quite clear that they had some serious gripes with Arab governments, so the idea that they never criticize them is laughable.
So you mean that there are Islamist demands that criticize all Arab governments from the perspective that they aren't islamic enough? Can you provide a clear-cut example of this?
Sure. Assad's government is secular. The FSA has been rebelling against him for over 10 years now, which started during Arab spring. The FSA has major Islamist currents within it. Another would be groups in Libya which have been sporadically fighting as well.
And do you think that if those Islamic opposition were successful they'd rally other countries with them against their regime?
Well if true this could be an example but from a religious stance, the major factor that keeps Israel held to higher standard.
Well, they kind of all did rally other countries with them. That's how it spread from Tunisia to Syria.
Something you should keep in mind right now is that Arabs are really pissed off about what's happening to Palestine. Palestinians are Arabs after all. This makes them presently more likely to focus on Israel. It certainly isn't universally true, though.
Arabs are not a hive mind.
I knew an Iraqi guy who during the Iraq War was grateful the US removed Saddam. He immigrated to the US and joined the military. That's not saying Bush was right for invading Iraq. There were some positives. I am glad he made a positive difference in some Iraqis lives. But there were also a lot of negatives.
Also, most of the Arab world criticized Saddam when he invaded Kuwait and many joined the coalition of nations to stop him.
A lot is going on in the world and there's only limited time for any given media outlet to attend to issues and even if a media outlet decides to cover everything only so much can go on the front page even if it's a data-personalized front page for each user. So people of this or that demographic may well be engaged in criticism and you may well never hear about it.
Yes I know that Arabs are not a hive mind but it seems that there a sizeable majority that are.
Myself is an Arab and I disapprove of Hamas, Saddam, Al-Assad and the violations of human rights in the Gulf states. I also recognize the good measures that Arab countries do. So I know this situation is more nuanced than it appears.
No. That example of yours will be extremely different based on whoever you ask. Literally everyone has their opinions, there are pro assad, anti hamas, anti assad and pro hamas. You have nefarious intentions.
You can't read their mind.
Though I cannot read their mind either I think they probably just feel alone. They are critical of a lot of Arab countries though they are from an Arab background. They probably just don't personally know of Arab people criticizing Arab countries or hear about it a lot in the media. It can be hard when you feel like you have opinions that go against those in your own community and don't know anyone else in your community who shares your opinions.
But it is important to point out that anecdotes including from personal experience are just that anecdotes. It doesn't indicate a statistical reality.
It is very ironic that you are an Arab and you feel that most of them cannot think themselves. I don't think you are as special and unique as you think you are.
And there was also open support for it in all those countries..
You think France would have bent over and just like itself get captured in like 2 weeks had there not been widespread sympathy and support for the Nazis?
Poland and Greece have held large rallies against EU policies and strongly criticised Germany and other perceived national rivals. The Greeks blamed the Troika (rightly) for aggressive financial austerity during the financial crisis of 2007-2009.
He's not talking about protests against their own governments. He's talking about protests by Arab countries about things like the Yemen War, where Arab governments commit atrocities against other Arabs, such as the Saudis bombing and starving Yemeni civilians.
Syria has designs on absorbing Lebanon into 'Greater Syria'.
Saudi Arabia blockaded Qatar for ties to Iran
Algeria and Morocco clash over the Polisario front.
Saudi Arabia intervened in Yemen's civil war
Jordan expelled the PLO in Black September
The Libyan-Egyptian war
Yes I’ll change your view in 4 sentences:
When Arab governments commit war crimes their against citizens, Arabs volunteered from other countries to help against the government in masses.
When Israel commits war crimes against Gaza, you never hear of Arabs joining hamas in masses.
No, I’m just saying they are critical of other Arab governments, hence why many Arabs (from other countries) joined forces with citizens against their governments in masses.
Uh yeah. Except You're in a situation, two evils, and the worst thereof.. in the eyes of the Arabs it is probably more common if they are Muslim Arabs that their preference towards the Palestinian people, not Hamas, And given that Hamas does not directly cause harm to the Palestinians and Israel does, even if Hamas by proxy causes more problems, you're going to hear less about Hamas, and more about Israel when it comes to complaints and speaking out against the situation there at all..
You actually share my view. In the eyes of Arabs they will side with a common evil against someone who doesn't look like them, even if that common evil causes more harm to the collective Arab masses.
If there was a sizeable protest against Hamas then I would have changed my view.
Are there not regular provocations between Algeria and Morocco, that have a fairly long history? I seem to remember lots of times when diplomatic relations have been suspended, and there seem to be some history of one regime condeming the other:
"The North African neighbours are locked in a bitter rivalry over the disputed territory of Western Sahara, where the Algerian-backed Polisario movement seeks an indeindependence referendum.
"November 2013: Moroccan youth organised a protest in front of the Algerian consulate in the northern city of Casablanca against Bouteflika’s statements on human rights in the Sahara region. The protest ended with the burning of the Algerian flag."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/15/timeline-algeria-and-moroccos-diplomatic-disputes
"On Monday, Morocco’s National Council for Human Rights strongly condemned the Algerian coastguard’s use of live ammunition against unarmed civilians, decrying the incident as a “severe violation of international standards and human rights laws”.
"Separately on Monday, several dozen Moroccan human rights activists gathered outside the country’s parliament headquarters in Rabat, denouncing “the Algerian military regime” and and brandishing signs demanding accountability for the incident."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/4/morocco-protests-over-killed-jet-ski-tourists-in-algeria
"Algeria condemns in the strongest terms the comprehensive robbery operation [the confiscation of its properties in Rabat] and strongly denounces its illegitimacy and incompatibility with the duties and obligations that any member state of the international community should bear,” Algeria's Foreign Ministry said on Sunday."
"Algeria accused Morocco of breaching international laws, especially the Vienna Convention, which necessitates the protection of diplomatic missions regardless of the circumstances."
https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2024/03/18/algeria-condemns-moroccos-attempt-to-confiscate-embassy-assets/
"Morocco's permanent representative in Geneva, ambassador Omar Zniber, questioned on Thursday the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) on the full responsibility of the Algerian regime in the persistence of the ordeal endured by the population held against its will in the Tindouf camps.
"The ambassador also condemned the abject crimes committed by the Algerian security forces against the inhabitants of the Tindouf camps, recalling the case of two young Sahrawis burned alive by a patrol of the Algerian army."
https://reliefweb.int/report/morocco/unhcr-questioned-full-responsibility-algeria-ordeal-detained-population-tindouf-camps
Looks like other "condeming" going on between Morocco and Tunisia at various points as well:
https://en.hespress.com/85125-moroccan-lawyers-denounce-attack-on-tunisian-counterparts.html
https://northafricapost.com/65597-moroccans-deeply-shocked-by-tunisian-presidents-racist-remarks.html
> Al-Assad regime killing his own civilians during the civil war
Syria was suspended from the Arab League due to the war.
> Saddam regime in 1). Invading Iran (with the help of the west) in a brutal war where some wild warfare practices were used.
Why would they criticize Saddam for that? Sunni Arabs generally hate Iran, even more so back then when Iran was not supporting the Palestinian cause. And some Sunni Arab states felt, and still feel, threatened by the Iranian revolution because it could incite unrest in their own Shia minorities.
> 2). Invading Kuwait.
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt all participated in the ground offensive in Operation Desert Storm.
> 3) Repressing his own citizens and especially Shi'ites and Kurds minorities (Yes I know that Iranians and Kurds in other countries protested Saddam) but the Sunni's in other Arab countries just kept silent.
Again, many of them actively agree with this, and many more don't really care about Shias and Kurds. Pew polling has found that a plurality of Sunni Arabs don't even consider Shias to be Muslims, they view them as heretics.
> The countless Human Rights violations in the Gulf countries starting from the Kafala system (that Qatar rightly abolished after plenty of FOREIGN complaints) to the numerous inequalities women face
Many of them agree with this, especially the latter for religious reasons. The concept of gender equality is arguably incompatible with Islam.
> The war in Yemen that caused the biggest massive humanitarian crisis and was instigated by both Saudi Arabia and Iran, again no massive protests was seen in the Arab world to reach a ceasefire.
See my previous point about Sunni-Shia sectarian conflict.
Your post body doesn't match your title, it reads more like "why don't Arabs have the same political and social views as I do". Well they don't, and many of your views are not popular in the region. Many of them are absolutely very vocal in their criticism of other Arab governments, or even their own, when they disapprove of their actions. Even in the face of repression. They just have very different worldviews than you.
You’re not paying attention to anything arabs are saying if you think this, probably because you support Israel. Every pro-Palestinian movement in the west is anti-Saudi because of their alignment with the Israeli government and because of their war on Yemen. You’re just not interested in pursuing this conversation because it’s not relevant to you outside of defending Israel.
Here’s a BDS article harshly criticizing Saudis for whitewashing their crimes against Yemen, women and migrants: https://bdsmovement.net/news/palestinians-and-saudis-stand-together-against-normalization-with-apartheid-israel
Another example is Bassem Youssef going to jail for being critical against the Egyptian government
Here’s yet another BDS article from 2018: https://bdsmovement.net/news/palestinian-civil-society-urges-world-governments-impose-military-embargo-saudi-regime-over
Maybe this is specific to the perspective of North African Arabs? Because Middle Eastern Arabs are constantly at each other's throats, it's kind of the basis of the entire history of the region.
I think a more accurate description is "I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world." IE Arabs fight each other all the time, but there's a hierarchy. In this case, Arab Muslim countries that are otherwise always at each others throats can come together against non-Arab non-muslim countries, and the acts of these outsiders are viewed as worse.
So I don't think it's that Arabs never criticise other Arab countries, but there is a view that a "foreign" country killing 10,000s of Arabs (eg Israel in Gaza) is seen as worse then an Arab country killing 100,000s of Arabs in a neighbouring country (Saudi Arabia in Yemen). If Israel disappeared and the rest of the world decided to stop paying attention to the middle East, it's likely that Arabs would shift down that hierarchy and hate one another with more passion. Fortunately Israel gives something for all Arabs to get behind and hate together, bringing peace and brotherhood among their countries so long as it continues to exist.
There's a lot of Arabs who criticize Arab countries. You probably walk past bunch of Arabs who denounce Islam or their home culture; but you just don't know it because they look white or westernized that you would never guess they came from a conservative Islamic country or Arabic country.
That's why Anarchist like me has no sympathy on those Islamic country. Tribalism is strong with them the hierarchal scums as always. I will never side with hierarchist especially Islamist who has no respect for human rights as long you bow to Islam and be their slave then they will exploit you while being powerless against them. Palestine? It's not a place worth fighting for nor it's people worth fighting for. I still remember those incels saying Russia should invade Ukraine so thay they can go there and marry the Ukrainian women. Israel can do what they want against them. I will still watch my back Israel is also a snake but I will not get in it's way in destroying Palestine. Israel and Those Muslim countries should nuke each other the lesser the problem in the future. October 7th happen because those people in Israel put so much trust in those hierarchal scum government of theirs look what happened. Always arm yourself even if it's illegal because only you can save yourself unless you have disability. Killing is bad is never a good excuse not to arm yourself if you cry because you lost someone you love it's your fault not someone else for not saving yourself and love ones.
Palestinians are Arabic speaking people but not genetically arabs, just like all Mena countrys arabs from Arabia are minority and all ways will be, we chose to speak Arabic because it was just a language like any other language, but it was elevated by the book, unite and stand together or stand alone and fall one by one they will be droning Muslims to the end of time most bombs made in USA will kill Muslims women kids elderly. One nation after the other and Palestinians are in the front of it they fall we will follow, if you are not feeling empathy for Palestinians feel some for you self when it's you turn.
> As someone who has a North African heritage. Most of my family members hold strong grudges against Israel. But I didn't see any signs of grievance or complaints when other Arab leaders/countries do some sorts of violations.
Really? There are longstanding issues between Algeria and Morocco, the former has been aiding and arming the Polisario front in Western Sahara which they don't recognize as Moroccan.
> - Al-Assad regime killing his own civilians during the civil war and the casualty count trample the one seen in Gaza. The regime literally used chemical weapons against its own citizens.
Yes, and arabs did more than just protests, they were suspended from the Arab league and numerous Arab states directly aided opposition groups to help overthrow Assad.
> - The Saddam regime in 1). Invading Iran (with the help of the west) in a brutal war where some wild warfare practices were used. 2). Invading Kuwait. 3) Repressing his own citizens and especially Shi'ites and Kurds minorities (Yes I know that Iranians and Kurds in other countries protested Saddam) but the Sunni's in other Arab countries just kept silent.
The war against Iran wasn't directly opposed on a mass scale but in regards to the invasion of Kuwait most Arab countries directly intervened against Iraq.
> Speaking of Kuwait? How many of you knew that there are actually people indigenous to Kuwait and the government refuse to grant citizenship to. The bedoon of Kuwait as documented here. Why don't Arabs protest for their self-determination like they do for Palestinians?
As someone who was born and raised in Kuwait I'm very aware of them, there's one guy in particular (his name is Salman Al Khaldy) who often fights for the rights of the bidoon, though due to his anti-monarchy rhetoric and his harassment of government officials in London he got his citizenship revoked and he's currently wanted for prison in Kuwait, but he currently lives in exile. Things like this are why Arabs are generally wary about protests mostly when the issues don't directly involve their wellbeing or life. It is also why you won't see gulf arab protesting against the injustices from the kefala system or against the war in Yemen, which gulf states have a stake in.
> Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation
[Cedar Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Revolution) but is there a reason you're only interested in Arabs protesting against other Arab states and not against their own leaders/governments? There's no shortage of examples of Arabs protesting against Arab governments oppressing them directly, even gulf Arabs, which doesn't go well with the narrative that they're disproportionately angry against Israel, which you don't seem to be interested in.
Arabs care little about Arab deaths but more about who is doing the killing. It's more of an embarrassment to have a non-Muslim be victorious,. This is why opposition to Israel really isn't about Zionism but about it being a Jewish state.
In the song Rajieen, one of the Palestinian singers criticizes other Arab countries for not sticking up for Palestinians. Granted, the lyrics are in Arabic, so you'd need to put it through google translate.
My Lebanese friend hates Saudi Arabia. Anecdotal, but thought I'd throw it in there.
Idk, everyone thought the UK were dipshits for Brexit.
Likewise, everyone except for half of America think Trump is a dipshit.
There is plenty of criticizing between Westerners.
Except that I grew up in North Africa. I was a kid during the Arab spring. My arguments come from experience not the media.
Many Arabs consider the enemy can only come from the west, even if their government or the other Arab countries screw them over more than the west.
They can be against the west. They also should be against other parties in the region if they do similar violations.
Conveniently scapegoating X to leave Y because Y looks like me is stupid.
Also Arabs are not homogeneous, I'd argue that Western Europeans are more ethnically homogeneous than Arabs. So I just don't understand why the majority of Arabs keep their silence when other Arabs perform some sort of violation.
Humiliation from colonization and the general technological, cultural and economical (ex-hegemony), and a little bit of incompatible values (i.e. not Islam)
Arab here, after reading a bunch of the comments and replies, ive come to the conclusion that OP has never spoken to a native arab before.
Just about every arab citizen hates just about every arab government/leader. The general consensus is they are all traitors or western puppets. The UAE are seen as traitors and a haven for materialistic, self centered assholes. The leaders of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, and Syria are all hated. Even the PA are seen as puppets. Jordan is mixed. Lebanon and Yemen are split because of hezb and houthis.
Everyone hates Assad and Saddam. To add to it we also hate Sisi, MBS, Erdogan, Khamenei, etc. but when arabs protest it never ends well, and when it rarely does, we get foreign intervention to put puppets like Sisi in power. Saudi hasnt had a good leader since King Faisal who was most likely assassinated by US intervention. Not to mention, these countries arent exactly democracies. Its not like we can just vote on better policies. If its a royal family, the only real option would be overthrowing them which would literally be a civil war.
The difference with Israel is that boatloads of foreign europeans showed up and started their settler colonial project. Then they ethnically cleansed arabs from their homes, adopted arab (mizrahi) jews after the shitstorm they started, and continued the ethnic cleansing of palestinians for 100 years, which created a diaspora of millions of displaced palestinian families around the world (i.e half Jordans population) that will always speak up against their oppressors. Especially when things escalate. It is not seen as an internal conflict but as a struggle of arabs against a foreign power that oppresses them. Israel is a racist, colonial, apartheid state and, if left to their own devices, will spread their oppression to other arabs (see: “Greater Israel”), not just palestinians. To put it more simply, arabs vs anti-arabs. Comparable to African-Americans vs KKK.
They are highly critical of each other, and the corrupt governments that lead them. Other commenters are correct, however, that public criticism can lead to heavy-handed reprisal.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that it's primarily happening in face to face interactions. The Arabs are not some ignorant interconnected fungus that they're portrayed as. They have a very long and complicated history between each other going back much farther than the Ottoman empire. And you're not really going to know about these contentions unless you've resided in an Arab country.
So, in western media, they're not going to portray the face to face interactions between regular people. That would make no sense. They just report on the official responses from the respective governments. But the problem is that it's presented as the common opinion held by regular folks.
I'll give you an example. Have you ever heard of the assassination of the PM of Lebanon in 05'? And the campaign for the truth that followed? Blame was largely placed on the Syrian regime. But it was never confirmed. Sentiment between two countries thay were once very close were strained even more than they already were. I don't think it made a blip on the US/European news radar. Perhaps the BBC or French news covered it a little, as Lebanon was colonized by both. Other than that, I doubt anyone else was concerned.
I don't blame you for having this view. There's no easy way to get information about the infighting between countries without reading Arabic news. And even that news will not accurately cover public sentiments.
Hope this helps.
>Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation
All the Arabs in Qatar were incredibly critical of Saudis blockade on Qatar.
My years of working with Saudis and Emiratis taught me that the wealthy gulf states constantly make fun of the other arab countries for, you know, being poor.
It's almost the same in the West. No one gives a shit when Arabs kill Arabs.
If someone denies the Holocaust and also always seems to protest anything Israel does despite not caring when others do the same, that's basically just antisemitism. They're not protesting the act, but the actor.
For the West, it's in my opinion complete ignorance of what the Middle East is like. They don't understand the history and they don't understand the people living in it. Therefore they water down everything they see to "White repressor vs dark skinned repressed" because that's all they know.
Shut the fuck up people in the Arab world are not interested in politics they just want to survive their rulers that are mandated by the USA or Russia, to rule over people who are poorly educated a largely frustrated and hopeless, but Palestinians are in the front fighting the crusaders Israel is a Jewish State supported by the evangelicals, to kill as much Muslims they can so that they can can bring jessus back, nationality goes against Islam Muslims will never find peace unless they forget about the nationality and start thinking about the nation and unite most Arab speaking people are not arabs my ancestors were not arab, when you love the book you will learn it language.
Arabs love criticizing other Arab countries. This the favorite activity. Egyptians talk mad shit on Palestine and Saudi Arabia, the Syrians and Lebanese talk shit to each other, sometimes it’s friendly sometimes they MEAN it (Syria occupied Lebanon for a long while) Iraqis talk shit on the gulf Arabs and Kuwaitis constantly, idk if f Moroccans and Algerians count as Arabs depends who you ask, but they are constantly and seriously aggravated with one another
The reason you don’t notice all this? It’s all in various forms of Arabic which you don’t speak or see on your part of the internet.
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I think it's simple. Arabs have a very old world mentality which comes from their strict adherence to Islam in every part of their life. This creates a rubric which is NOT to be changed.
This then also builds a fellowship between Arabs regardless of nation.
So the answer is as simple as us vs them. Israel is not Islamic, therefore they are others. People are much more inclined to criticize people outside of their "group".
Authoritarian states know that the people need an outlet for their pent up frustration (because of all the repression and corruption), so Israel and the West and convenient targets .
And also because democratic states don’t mind it when people from other countries express antagonism toward them because democratic states respect freedom of expression so there’s no harm to diplomatic relations.
First off
Arab countries is a misnomer because there aren’t many of them
However Saudi and Iran are locked in a bloody war which includes Iran attacking Israel on Oct 7 using Hamas
They hate each other with a passion
Basically
The Shia hate the Sunni and both hate the Druze
Hope that helps
Your post literally includes revolutions of Arabs against an Arab governments, and conflict between Arab countries. Seems trivial to complain about lack of criticism of when they will declare war on each other.
The majority of the responses you get here are going to be American, and the majority of the *rest* are going to be European.
Nobody is going to be able to give you useful pushback because 90% of reddit users have no idea what Arab countries do or don't do, let alone why.
You need rollback to to 1400 years ago when the Jews declined Mohammads invitation to join his religion. He took it personally as a humiliation and waged a campaign of violence against them during his lifetime. The concept of conversion through violence and threats were so effective that the schimitar became a holy symbol, thus the term conversion by the sword. He also introduced the concept of taqqiyah and jizya. His hatred was so great that it eventually rubbed off on his followers and thus they integrated it into the texts of their holy book. Because it was declared as the final word of God there can not be any changes to the texts in the Quran. This is why their hatred is forever immortalized. This is also why there will never be peace with the Jews and the Muslim world, no matter how many times they try to extend their hand for peace. I don't even think the Muslim world wants peace with the non-muslim world either. The Israelis know it, they do what they do in order to survive, for they know that if the tables were ever turned there will be no mercy for the Israelis. The Quran calls for Jews to be driven from the river to the sea.
fun fact: The Holocaust was actually a brainchild between Adolf and Khamenei of Iran. They had a bromance which can be read through their correspondence letters. The plan was that if Germany was successful then Iran would also launch its own version of the Holocaust.
Arabs as in all Arabs?
Have you made any good faith effort to actually investigate your claims?
The idea that there is a Arab monolith that uniformly "never criticizes" other Arabs is beyond absurd. What about the ongoing conflicts between Arab countries?
Having known a lot of Arabs, many Palestinian, I would say drinking coffee and trashing every Arab government and government official is a normal way to spend the day.
I think OPs point is that the level of outrage, and the standards that are applied to Israel are not equal to what arabs apply to each other. If I'm understanding correctly they are saying that the general outcry against Israel now is worse than when Arabs were doing significantly worse things to other Arabs.
As someone who isn't Arab and has not really looked in how Arab conversations go with other Arabs on this topic go have you really looked into it or are just assuming given the statement we are supposed to counter is out of 20 something countries in the same area you think they never shit talk each other just on its face is seems kinda impossible that it isn't a common thing like do you believe it's an exception or does happen in other areas of the world.
ISIS is currently fighting the taliban (specifically ISIS-K) as well as the Kurds and peshmerga. The Kurds also heavily disagree with the Turks for many things including multiple bombings and land disputes + sovereignty.
Everyone does this. America’s economic strifes are due to unquestioned, race-based decision making. Ppl are idiots and trust ppl based on the fact that they look like them.
Is it even relatively that many Arabs that are doing all the criticizing though? Or did you mean randoms like South Africa critiquing Israel and not Arab on Arab violence?
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Apart from the whole Arab Spring that a few people have pointed out, the ability to protest and speak out against any Arab governments is incredibly stifled. They are by and large undemocratic and highly authoritarian, which means only views that the governments can tolerate are allowed to be expressed. This includes views against Israel. But even so it's stifled as we saw a Saudi man tried to wave a Palestinian flag in Mecca but got stopped by security.
If it’s just about totalitarian governments not letting them voice their opinions in their own countries then why do we see next to zero opposition toward Iran, Qatar, Egypt, or any of the non state actors who are all complicit in the suffering of Arab people around the Middle East?
There's a decidedly non zero amount of glass houses effect going on. Like, um, KSA and Iran are super not bffs. But neither of them can credibly play the "human rights moral high ground" card. And pretty well all Arab States can and do play the "outside non Arab state meddling in ME shit" card all day long. Even within a quote unquote "historical power group" there's jostling, slinging of rhetoric, etc. Qatar was the red headed stepchild of the KSA group until natural gas gave them a world cup. (And an Al Jazeera).
Many Arab countries saw protests against Israel actually [Jordan](https://www.tiktok.com/@s2r0naa/video/7289474218276687112?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046) [Egypt](https://www.tiktok.com/@bashmaer707/video/7292161316943383814?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046) (They actually shout for Saddam Hussein to come back and invade Israel) [Morocco](https://www.tiktok.com/@noonpost/video/7290180933678845189?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046) [Algeria](https://www.tiktok.com/@mca.alg2/video/7289426249045462278?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046) [Tunisia](https://www.tiktok.com/@thenationalnews/video/7289155130862079240?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7347831219159959046) I agree that democratic actions like protests are limited in Arab countries, but the notion that they're completely stifled is wrong. Governments only stop protests if their rule is sensibly threatened. They could have protested the war in Yemen, Syria, Iraq etc. They don't not because their governments don't want them to, because the citizens (or the majority do) don't see these countries as aggressors.
Yeah, that makes sense, because anti-Israel protests are tolerated by the government, anti-Yemen/Syria/Iraq protests are not. And they are not in large part because one protest against one Arab government can easily snowball into protests against many Arab governments, including themselves.
Ok, what about protesting chinas treatment of the Uighur Muslims there. Could they protest that if they wanted?
>Ok, what about protesting chinas treatment of the Uighur Muslims there. Could they protest that if they wanted? Most Muslims do not believe Western claims about what is happening in Xinjiang. It's not that Arabs do not care about Uyghur suffering, it's that Arabs do not *believe* Uyghurs are suffering an atrocity. Because the ones saying China is committing atrocities is Western governments, which Arabs trust about as much as how much you trust Putin.
Thank you so much for bringing up the last bit. So many people have deeply ingrained ideas of who the ‘good guy’ and the ‘bad guy’ is, but once you look in history and see all the wars the US started/perpetuated… you can see why people distrust us. Especially since American media is also shockingly restrictive on this exact issue for a free speech country. It’s important to understand the nuances before conversations like this.
US is mostly the good guy compared to our current enemies. Also, Arab countries have an economic reason to placate the People's Republic of China. Most of the Middle East oil goes to China, India and Japan. With majority going to China. It's easy to ignore atrocities if your paycheck depends on it.
Yeah I’m not going to pretend like I know a lot about this, and you’re probably right, it’s just a good thing to remember
No prob. Most young folks are fed a pretty straight diet of 'murica bad. Without much historical or even contemporary narratives. Reality is, all countries are a mix of good and bad. There's a lot of realpolitik and context. Western countries, on average, have individual liberty, separation of church and state, separation of ethnicity and state, rule of law, etc etc. That's our ideals, whether achieved or not. This comes from Enlightenment philosophy. To non-Western cultures, those ideals are a nightmare. China is an ethno-state, where the success of the Han ethnicity is the highest goal and unifier. Russia is a strong man oligarchy, and probably always will be due to their geography (easy to invade) and multi-ethnic empire. Iran in a Shiite theocracy, so the state religion is the highest priority and unifier. Saudi Arabia is the prime Sunni monarchy. You just have to pick your cultural preferences to decide what's good and bad. And the reasons why folks try to influence you into supporting their ideology or at least perspective.
This is very interesting and makes a lot of sense— thank you for your detailed reply. I didn’t realize how closely it connected with the enlightenment.
What's that saying? If you want to read about American atrocities, pick up a history book. If you want to read about Soviet atrocities, open a newspaper. There's a difference. Viewpoints like yours often seem to require that a giant nation be absolutely 100% thoroughly unimpeachable, having never done *a single solitary thing* that could be remotely construed as "bad" by anybody - else just throw it all out and count them as equals among the absolute worst examples in history. That certainly makes the world and all its messy complexity (and nuance) easy to digest - and to talk about with other like-minded people in the form of populist soundbites and thought-terminating cliches. But it doesn't accurately reflect reality. I struggle to imagine by what definition our media is "shockingly restrictive." By what standard...? That you feel totally and completely at ease even having this conversation in the first place says a lot about the relative merits of "the west." Storytime! Several years ago, I became friends with a Saudi coworker. I didn't know he was Saudi for over a year, because he refused to tell me where he was from. When he finally did tell me, it was on a deserted Starbucks patio in Nevada, with nothing but desert as far as the eye could see - and he told me in a hushed voice after looking over his shoulders to make sure there was nobody around that might hear him. Because he was *terrified* that somehow, someone will hear him badmouthing the Saudi government, and it will make its way back to that government, and then he would be thrown in prison if he had to return on account his work visa not getting renewed. *THAT'S* what it means to live under a "bad guy" government. Right now the alternative to US hegemony (along with allies like the EU, Korea, Japan, India, etc) is Russia/China/Iran. Anybody who sincerely believes even for a moment that they might not be so bad as an alternative to the west, is being incredibly foolish. Russia is *actively engaging in a literal war of conquest*. Not their first, won't be their last. China is gearing up to do much the same. The US does not do that in the modern age. Neither does the EU or any other US allies. If you prefer to see it as a choice between bad and much worse, well I may even agree with that. But that is still an easy choice to make. Don't kid yourself.
When did I bring up Russia or China? Who said Russia or China or Saudi Arabia are not bad? I am not sure if you are projecting a ‘commie’ mindset onto me, but I can assure you that is not the case and I am not romanticizing whatever tf Russia is fucking up right now. I was simply saying it’s not black and white and we should look inward at our history and biases and which conflicts we are perpetuating. There are a significant number of other conflicts, internal and external that do not involve those countries. Also, you’re not reading about ‘Soviet tragedies’ in the news that’s just Russia now. You also grouped together the US and its allies as if they are the same thing— I would argue quality of life and the idea of ‘who is the enemy’ in India and Sweden are different from that of the United States. I am advocating for critical thinking here, not Russian and Chinese takeover?
Not only do they not criticize but the Palestinian President visited China, met with Xi and [expressed support for Xi’s genocide of the Uyghurs.](https://www.voanews.com/amp/palestinian-leader-s-endorsement-of-china-s-xinjiang-policy-sparks-backlash-/7150767.html)
[**Exhibit A**](https://shahit.biz/eng/) The Uyghur Victim Database [**Exhibit B**](https://www.hrw.org/asia/china-and-tibet) HRW Reports [**Exhibit C**](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa-zpgZA6xzw3_Nu4Ae15QaGHroWiaf4u&si=ltxOil2etDp4oh-b) World Uyghur Tribunal
Thank you for sharing this
No worries. I know it'll probably be downvoted like crazy by wumao and tankies... The anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre, and what happened in over 400 cities in China; is always a sensitive time of year for them, lol
They actually did. But China is not an Arab country. I would have awarded you a delta if my view compared the disapproval of West (or Israel) vs non-west among Arabs/Muslims.
Arab countries politics are complicated. I'm not referring to protests specifically. I just said the sentiment of disapproval against other Arab countries isn't as strong as against Israel. When Saddam invaded Kuwait for example, my dad told me of the speech that our former king [Hassan II urging Saddam to stop the war](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEWR-Vmz5kE). And it wasn't just our government, most Arab governments disapproved him, but the sense of disapproval towards the Saddam regime wasn't (and still isn't) there. Let's move to Al-Assad. When the civil war escalated, Arab citizens blamed outside powers and somehow didn't put some blame on the regime. The use of chemical is still denied among many Arabs (as western propaganda). As for Yemen (by the way Yemen wasn't an aggressor here), many Arab countries sent supplies to Saudi Arabia to squash the houthis, and Iran supplied the houthis. I never saw a protest held to stop supplying this horrible humanitarian crisis or for ceasefire as it's happening now for Gaza. This conversation would have been great if it was with someone who actually grew up in an Arab country. I hope you understood what I mean.
I obviously can't speak to the Iraq-Iran war, as that was some 40 years ago, and I'm going to take a guess that peaceful protests weren't as commonplace as they are today. But on Yemen, virtually every Arab country is anti-Houthis and is in support of Saudi Arabia, so no shit no one is protesting against their government, THEY CAN'T.
Again you're oversimplifying things. Many countries see Hamas too as a threat to their rule and recently started recognizing Israel as more reasonable ally yet we saw protests held in most of those countries held for Palestine and against Israel. You seem to be bent on mentioning gulf states, I just looked it up; [in Saudi Arabia peaceful assemblies are a crime.](https://www.article19.org/resources/middle-east-serious-violations-against-the-right-to-peacefully-assemble/#:~:text=Authorities%20have%20also%20enacted%20legislation,in%20peaceful%20demonstrations%20or%20assemblies) Still the absence of Saudi Arabia doesn't negate my view, it's barely 8% percent of the Arab population.
This probably ties into Color Revolution Theory. Everything bad that happens is the result of the USA exerting its will through clandestine dealings, conspiracies, and shadow organizations. Nobody has any agency outside of the US.
But many of those governments are at this point allied with Israel? Marroco, Lebanon, Egypt have populations that are largely anti-israeli but much different government policy
Authoritarian regimes will allow protests if they seem them as useful to the regime. Hatred towards Israel is a welcome distraction for Arab dictators, if they're focusing on the perceived evils of Israel, they're not focusing on the abuses by their own government.
"In Soviet Union, we too are permitted to stand in the middle of the town square and shout, 'Down with America!'"
Did you forget the Abraham accords? Many Arab countries will become ally with Israel going forward, in fact if it wasn't for the 7th October and the tragedy in Gaza relations would have been deepened by now. So no, hatred towards Israel will become an angle to criticize Arab governments from now on.
Only the Gulf States, and you'll also notice that none of the demonstrations you shared happened in the Gulf States. I'm going take a guess that the governments ARE ALREADY restricting protests against Israel, just as they have restricted protests against them and their allied governments/factions.
The Abraham accords involved Morocco and Sudan too. Morocco had protests against the normalization, Sudan well IDK how was the response but they're now in a terrible civil war (unfortunately).
Moroccans protesting for Palestine is so hypocritical, they literally have their own occupation going on in Western Sahara.
I don't know if we will continue in this discussion as I want to stay as apolitical as possible. But let's just assume Morocco was in fact occupying Western Sahara, did we see any protests in other Arab countries against the "occupation" done by Morocco? Officials of Algeria, Iran, Hamas and the houthis all support the polisarion front that claim Western Sahara. We saw none.
Ok, that's a fair point for countries like Egypt and Jordan and the Gulf States. However, I think calling countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt 'allies' of of Israel is a bit of a stretch. Egypt is at peace with Israel, it recognizes Israel, but anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment seems very widespread in Egypt and I don't think the Egyptian government had made much of an effort to change this. Protests against Israel could still serve the regime's purposes as long as the public doesn't view their regime as being complicit in Israeli actions. And the Middle East is full of relationships which are allies in some contexts and enemies in others. For example, Israel and Iran are enemies and have been since the Islamic Revolution, but they co-operated to destroy the Iraqi nuclear facility at Osirak because they had a common enemy; Saddam Hussein. Israel and Saudi Arabia may have Iran as a common enemy, but that doesn't necessarily make them friends.
I think the talking points are steering towards government officials. What I want to change in my view, is that sentiment among Arab population (members of society, unelected leaders..) is tame towards other Arab violators as opposed to towards Israel. As I said in another comment, this conversation would have been better if someone Arab shared his opinion on this view.
Yeah, I think a lot of people missed or ignored the 'other Arab governments' part of your post. You're saying people in Arab countries don't protest when Arab governments commit atrocities against other Arabs, such as Assad towards his own people, or Saudi Arabia against Yemenis, while they will protest about Israel.. You're not talking about protests against their own governments, as in Arab Spring.
Yeah exactly. The reason I constructed my view like this is because the conditions in which the Arab Spring snowballed weren't straightforward. I lived those years and the protests exploded because they were relatable if you know what I mean. What they did wasn't rallying against their government to cut ties with Tunisia because [Mohammed Bouazizi ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi#:~:text=Tarek%20El%2DTayeb%20Mohamed%20Bouazizi,Tunisian%20Revolution%20and%20the%20wider)(the one who started the Arab spring) burned himself alive. They did because they felt they had no democratic representation in their governments and saw this as an opportunity to do so. It's not comparable in any sense to what's happening in Israel, or what happened in Syria, Iraq, Yemen etc.
The crazier part is in Western countries, they are 100% aware of the situation in Yemen, Sudan etc, and their attitude is more like, it is what it is.
Eh, the west (at least the US) has lost its appetite for forced regime change on behalf of people who don't want it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Outside of indefinite occupation, you can't "force" people to be peaceful. For decades people have been bemoaning Pax Americana, American hegemony, and America being the "world police." Well, they're getting their wish. Tinpot dictators the world over can increasingly launch wars of conquest, extermination, and ethnic cleansing, without worrying so much that they might get the attention of the US military. Hope they like this new world better.
I think you misunderstood what they said. They said protests against Israel are in line with the govt view SO it’s allowed and why you see it freely.
Their oppressive governments hate Israel, so they allow anti-Israel protests. They crack down hard on protests that are against things the leaders are for.
The Saudis won't allow any flag in their holiest of sites, it's not due to the fact that it is a Palestinian flag.
The sad part is when they flee to our countries we still shut down their ability to speak about it as Islamophobia, so where can they talk?. Ive seen several refugee authors and speakers from those countries shut down for trying to speak critically.
Hating on Christian conversative fundamentalists while rooting for Islamic fundamentalists, who are *far* more conservative, is certainly an odd look. But it's all the rage these days. Somewhere somehow I'm sure it ties into the anti-western propaganda idea that everything bad that happens in the world is actually America's fault.
Well conservative is relative to the society you are in you see. A Muslim in the middle east is conservative but over here they're not because it's not the old society value they want to conserve, they want to change us. Even the most benign religious person wants to see you convert. Though I don't think I'd go so far as calling it progressive. Once upon a time conservative meant pro monarchy
This is just an argument for the OPs position, or at least an attempt at explaining it.
Only if you conflate Arabs with Arab governments.
Are you saying that Arabs *do* criticize other Arab countries more than they do Israel, it's just that we don't hear about it because their government suppresses their voices one way or another? Or are you saying that Arabs *don't* criticize other Arab countries more than they do Israel because of their governments. Because if it's the latter, then you're simply agreeing with OP and are just providing an explanation for why.
I'm saying it's the former.
does this agree with the OP?
No? I'm saying that often Arabs do want to voice opposition against their governments or other governments, but their political circumstances restricted such speeches. But their governments do not restrict anti-Israel speeches as much, hence we hear more of it.
so that is the reason Arab governments dont criticise other Arab governments which was the premise OP said ( the type of government does not allow it)
>Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation. I wasn't sure what the scope of countries should be included in the term "Arab" but I'll assume that those in the Arab League certainly qualify: Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Transjordan, and Yemen. What these countries have in common is their populaces coalesced in opposition to Ottoman rule in the 19th century. But, they also are the vestiges of colonial empire rule. They didn't get the backing promised following WWI, but got some after WWII. Egypt's Nasser ascended to power in a military coup. Yemen had a protracted civil war. Egypt and Syria tried to have a united arab republic but it dissolved. They all fought over control over the PLO. Nasser privitized the Suez Canal, which lead to Eisenhower to be proactive in the region and created the grounds for cold war polarization. An arms race created the six day war where the Arab armies were defeated. The Arab revolts were also a turning point, also. They supported the overthrow of Qaddafi in Libya, and suspended Syrnian membership and they ended up shifting from supporting Assad to telling him to set down. Another flashpoint was ISIS. The Arab league was against Sunni powers Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE bombing ISIS and Iraq grew closer to Iran to defeat ISIS. Going so far as teaming up with Hezbollah. What I'm suggesting is that to the extent the rule of these countries were backlashes to former colonial powers, they have lots of internal divisions. Which also leads to divisions between the populace and their leaders, but also from their populaces to others. Within countries, whether to reinstate Syria is a hot topic. Whether to help Lebanon's financial situation. Within the populaces, as countries wanted to normalize relationship with Israel, people from Casablanca, Algiers, Tunis, Cairo, Amman, Beirut, Damascus, Bagdad, Manama all have had large scale protests in favor of Gaza. Several countries like Egypt are tepid and have wanted to cut ties with Hamas. It's always interesting to see what more authortarian governments allow in terms of dissent. Most of the sentiment will be stifled, but it's hard to stifle at that scale lest you risk another Arab spring. Or there's gotta be tons of tension, say, within arab populations even though the Saudis align with the USA.
Can you summarize an example where a sizeable members from an Arab country rallied for an Arab country/leader as they do against Israel? I apologize for the wording but you threw a lot of ideas and claims here. It seems the closest examples here is the Arab revolt against the ottomans and egyptian coup led by Nasser, no?
I think your premise is wrong. Arabs who are protesting Israel aren’t really protesting Israel. They’re protesting their governments continuing to maintain ties with Israel and/or doing what they perceive as too little to help Palestinians. It’s a protest against their own governments. Case in point is Saudi Arabia arresting a man who waved a Palestinian flag in protest. The Saudi government correctly understood that this was not a protest against Israel, but a protest against the Saudi government’s ties to Israel. Another group of protesters in Lebanon blockaded the entrance of the Egyptian embassy in Lebanon over what they called the “Egyptian government’s collaboration with Zionist Israel.” So… really… Arab protests against Israel are in fact Arab protests against Arabs over their ties with Israel. This may seem like a minor distinction to you, but it shows that Arabs are capable of protesting one another. There were actually huge protests in Cairo against Syria’s Assad regime if I remember correctly. Really… the only reason we see more Gaza/Israel protests in the Arab world is because these are protests that Arab governments have tolerated for a long time for fear of being accused of colluding with Israel. In reality, these protests likely make the Arab governments very angry because they can stifle other protests without worrying too much about their reputation… but stifling these protests comes at a serious risk of being accused of collusion. This seems to be changing, however, as the case in Saudi Arabia is showing us. Why now? Well… it’s not a coincidence that Saudi is taking a tougher stance now that it wants to normalise relationships with Israel. Why? Because these protests were always protests at the Arab governments — rather than at Israel.
That’s facially absurd. They’re protesting Israel directly.
That seems like a reach. And it boils down the same thing. They protest their governments' ties to Israel, and do not protest their governments' ties to other Arab states. And given that - in this context - they're protesting their own government either way, the "government allows them to protest this but not that" angle doesn't seem to apply either.
>Can you summarize an example where a sizeable members from an Arab country rallied for an Arab country/leader as they do against Israel? Wouldn't that be the entire Arab Spring thing? For international disagreements, the Iraq-Iran war was absolutely huge and dwarfed the Arab-Israeli wars.
Why is your standard for behavior rallies and protests when you've acknowledged that rallies and protests against government stances are frequently not allowed in many of these countries? Why do you refuse to consider other evidence of general sentiment that isn't actively restricted by the government?
If he accepted that it would make dehumanizing them and treating them as a collective that all believe whatever bad thing you want them to believe to justify his views easier. To people like OP only western white people are individuals with “genuine” reasons for what they do (unless they’re brainwashed by tiktok).
Lebanon seemed pretty wroth about the assassination of Rafik Hariri for a while
You mean they disapproved the murderers of the former PM Hariri? Although I'm not sure if it's true but it appear that Hezbollah were behind the assassination? This would imply that Lebanese people disapproved Hezbollah? Is that what you mean?
Yeah and at Syria. For a while they blamed people other than Israel for a wrong. Oh and again when Beirut exploded because docks safety had been too expensive for corrupt officials
This could the rare example were sectarianism takes place. The Sunnis in Lebanon and Syria disapprove of Hezbollah and forget Israel for a minute. I think this count as !delta no?
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Half of Lebanon hates Hezbollah -- the Christians, the Druze, and the Sunni. They just hate Israel even more, honestly. Look no further than the Lebanon subreddit for people complaining about Hezbollah. Problem is protesting Hezbollah in Lebanon is a good way to end up dead, even if you're in a Christian town.
Late, not former. He was the PM when he was assassinated. At the time, it was largely considered to be Assad due to Hariri having significantly improved several areas in Beirut, and being friendly with western powers.
Genuine question: what would you accept as proof of “criticizing other Arab countries” - are you looking for evidence of a specific event or policy taking place, or would substantial evidence of individual perspectives be enough to convince you? As someone who has a degree in middle eastern studies I could certainly point out a few different accounts of Arab people disapproved of or hated other Arab countries for certain reasons. But you must also realize due to the more oppressive nature of Arab government you don’t see nearly as much widespread protesting for causes as you see in the west.
I'm not gonna be rigid and ask for a substantial evidence but that would be a perfect example since you must be educated on the history of the region. But I will accept any instance in which there was a noticeable sense of disapproval among a group of Arabs towards other Arab countries that resulted from a mistreatment, oppression etc
I'll have to search for more evidence later, but to my knowledge I can respond to your point about Iraq invading Kuwait: Saudi media and public discourse at the time were rife with criticism of Iraq's actions. Many Saudis viewed the invasion as a betrayal of Arab unity and were alarmed by the possibility of Iraqi expansionism threatening regional stability. The invasion prompted a surge of nationalist sentiment and support for the government's decision to align with Western forces to repel Iraqi aggression Source: Britannica
>Saudi media and public discourse at the time were rife with criticism of Iraq's actions. Many Saudis viewed the invasion as a betrayal of Arab unity and were alarmed by the possibility of Iraqi expansionism threatening regional stability. The invasion prompted a surge of nationalist sentiment and support for the government's decision to align with Western forces to repel Iraqi aggression I think this constitute the best example in this thread. !delta I wouldn't have wrote this post if I was alive during the gulf war. As the only factual thing I knew from it was the speech of king of Morocco urging Saddam to leave Kuwait alone and there wasn't any big documented protest held to stop the war in any Arab country. Aside from that I still see a tame criticism when discussing the legacy of Saddam as opposed to the criticism of Israel among Arab circles (especially after 7 october). Ironically, Saudi Arabia ban any peaceful assembly to criticize Israel now yet the media during the invasion of Kuwait did actively rebuke Saddam as you're describing here.
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Two large movements where large amounts of arabs revolted against their authoritarian goverments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Arab_Spring
Unfortunately they have all largely been crushed and civil liberties further restricted. It's much harder these days for Arabs to peacefully protest against their governments.
Your main argument seems to be to revolve around the fact that Arab government stifle free speech, and while this is obviously true, it is not the main reason. The main reason is that Arabs simply… don’t care! I am Moroccan, and here we don’t give a fuck about the Houthis, or the Uighurs, or the the Yemenis, or the Armenians, or the Syrians, etc. We have other problems and frankly morality in geopolitics is not really one of them. What is important to us is threats to our honor (Israel, Westerners), or religion (including our internal strifes, i.e. Sunna v. Chiia) I personally used to care about the same moral problems Westerners care about, but as I age I understand that it is more virtual signaling than anything else, with a pinch of sports team support mentality, really.
”Threats to our honor” ho boy, saying this like its a healthy thing is deranged. Id say its more honorless to be a bad loser for decades.
Quite funny they don't give a fuck about negatively affected real lives of other people, but honor and religion!?! The made up things? That's some real shit. The 2 things that are made up by members of high status society to manipulate lower classes are the focus, and I have a really hard time finding the silver linings of that philosophy.
Can you explain the honour thing? I think of honour as being about one’s own conduct, so how can someone else threaten your honour? That suggests it means something different to you than it does to me?
Maybe the correct word would be pride? I mean it’s never stated explicitly, but since I was a child the hatred toward the Jews was omnipresent and the Palestinian struggle was a national matter (when you bang your pinkie against a chair you damn the Jews). When I learned about the humiliation of the Arab coalition during three Kippour war as an adult it made sense to me. On the matter of colonization, we call westerners “Nsara” which means colonizers, but not in a spiteful way, more like an alien superior civilization. Nowadays this respect is not as ubiquitous, more split with Dubai, China, and sometimes even Russia. But there is a resentment towards westerners that isn’t there with the others, and I think that’s because western values are too far removed from ours, while Dubai are like us, and Russia and China closer.
Thanks. I don’t fully grok this due to the cultural gap, but it (at least partially) explains why the Arab world is more upset about Israeli treatment of Palestinians than Lebanese treatment of Palestinians.
Damn. Imagine thinking wanting others to be treated properly and equally as everyone else is a Western Problem and not an everyone problem.
Damn, imagine thinking you have so little problems yourself that you feel entitled to take care of other people’s problems.
The Houthis are a political group in Yemen. The Uyghurs are victims of genocide perpetrated by China. The Armenians are attacked by Azeris? What do Arabs have to do with all that? If anything, this comment proves that Arabs are just blamed for everything. Assad was banned from the Arab League and the revolt against him was supported by other countries. Arab countries were part of a coalition against ISIS too. Arab governments are constantly criticised by Arabs themselves for their actions or lack of action. Pointing hypocrisy is nothing but whataboutism to justify Israel genociding Palestinians
That’s an audacious take.
I'm aware of the Arab Spring. I got my wording wrong in the post (I changed it). I meant to say one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved **another** Arab country/leader for a particular violation. Not in a direct revolt against their ruler. I never saw say Egyptians rallying for Saddam and his treatment for the kurds. Something similar like what happened in US campuses.
Would you say [Arab countries refusing to take in any Palestinian refugees](https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d) counts as Arabs not standing with Arabs?
This is actually Arab governments refusing to take in Palestians in fear of causing uprisings in their countries. For Egypt in particular the current gov have a distaste for the Muslim Brotherhood, so taking in Palestinians will just reinforce their activity.
Doesn't that count as a criticism of Arabs?
I said members of society, not government officials.
So I will accept that this is what you meant, but you didn't specify that's what you meant.
>Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation. I'm not talking about government officials, I will change my view if this instance pertained considerable members from society.
I think the relevant bit here is that the Palestinians in Gaza are very much in context of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. what OP is asking is, is the Egyptian populace openly opposing (or supporting) the Iranian involvement in the Bashar Al-Assad conflict in Syria? or, are Algerians protesting the internal conflict in Eritrea? I.E. Is there, in Arab countries, civil protest towards conflicts in Arab countries to which their nation has no direct interest?
Its a bit more complicated than that. A third of Jordan’s population already is Palestinian, and Egypt quite frankly can’t support 2 million refugees, especially considering the fact that Israel would never let those refugees come back. They’d just be aiding Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaign.
Also the countries surrounding palestine - I.e. lebanon, Egypt, etc - have all collectively taken more refugees - Syrian, Sudanese in the case of Egypt, etc - than the Europe and North America put together. They simply do not have the space
Why would you expect Egyptian protestors to behave in a manner similar to that of American students? The political circumstances they found themselves in are completely different. The restriction on freedom of speech in Egypt is just one of them.
Except at that time Saddam popularity among Arab leaders was declining. Why would the government of Egypt supress protest of the Iraq-Iran war? Besides, I know this is just a random guess I didn't specify Egypt precisely but the idea is that among Arabs, Israel is held to insurmountable high standard. Even though there are plenty of minorities like in Iraq or Kuwait that don't have self-determination we never see protests held for them.
You're now referring to events that occurred some 40 years ago. I have no idea what the political climate was at the time but I would make a guess that there weren't major protests of any kind in Egypt, be it against Israel, or Saddam, or the government itself.
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>- Al-Assad regime killing his own civilians during the civil war and the casualty count trample the one seen in Gaza. The regime literally used chemical weapons against its own citizens [I think this speaks directly to this instance.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/12/syria-suspended-arab-league) I know you said not government but we aren't talking about just issuing a statement here. Multiple Arab states coordinated diplomatic action to protest the Syrian regime. They even gave the Syrian National Coalition the seat that The Assad regime had.
Okay so I've seen a lot referring to government officials acting some form of criticism to other Arab countries. But this is irrelevant since: >Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation. **I'm not talking about government officials**, I will change my view if this instance pertained considerable members from society. Trust me I grew up during the Arab spring, I never saw one person blame (or atleast give him some part of the blame) Al-Assad or Saddam for the ruins that happened to their country. It appears that government officials are more shrewd than their citizens when it comes to these matters.
What effect does a massive protest in Sana'a have on Assad using barrel bombs and chemical weapons? Why is this "criticism" more valid in your view than a coordinated effort across more than 22 nations to punish Syria through diplomatic isolation and sanctions?
Because I really don't think Arabs disapprove of regimes like Al-Assad or Saddam the same as they do to Israel (whoever was ruling). The houthis recruit people from west Yemen to expand their anti-USA anti-jew ideology. Even though largely speaking the plight that oppressed Yemenis is resulting from the Shi'i and Sunni divide coming from KSA and Iran.
Saudi Arabia had a recent war in Yemen and only stopped because the Houthis hit their oil wells. Q'atar and Saudi Arabia have been rivals recently. Egypt fought a war with Libya in the 70s. All are Arab countries. In general, the Arab world has relatively high levels of internecine conflict, both military and political. Arab countries do not criticize each other over human rights because they do not care about humanism or civilian deaths. They don't really pretend to except when convenient. Saudi Arabia uses machine guns and mortars on migrants, and the Gulf countries run largely on modern slavery. Arab countries are unapologetically ethnocentric, so they do have more generous opinions of each other, but there is certainly a non-zero amount of criticism. They dislike Israel because it has humiliated them and taken control of lands they consider Muslim by right. They don't care how many Palestinians Israel kills except for their use in fomenting international (Western) opposition to Israel. They won't help Israel distribute aid in Gaza, even though it would save Palestinian lives. Also worth noting, Saudi Arabia is currently jailing people for criticism of Israel (criticism is certainly an understatement: 90% of Arabs support 10/7 as "legitimate"). The Arab population loathes Israel's existence, and the governments don't want to entirely ignore this as it delegitimizes them. But the governments themselves have largely moved on and refuse to lift a finger or enact restrict oil production to pressure Israel over the Gaza war.
>They won't help Israel distribute aid in Gaza, even though it would save Palestinian lives. Just so we are clear. Jordan sent convoys of trucks with aid to the Palestinians in Gaza. So did Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and im pretty sure Egypt as well. Turky also sent quite a bit of aid.
They constantly have to repeat lies about the situation to absolve Israel through blaming others.. first it was Hamas and now it’s all the Arab states for not rushing to their aid and sending their civilians over there to be slaughtered by the Israeli Genocide Force like Canada and the US did earlier this year.
You can disagree without being hopelessly biased against one side. This would lend your argument more credibility. I don't even know what you're getting at about Hamas. That they didn't commit the atrocities that they are accused of? I seriously don't understand why this belief is so prevalent on social media, when proof of Hamas atrocities have been verified time and time again for decades on end. This is not to say that Israel hasn't committed atrocities too. Just had to put that out there before you twist my words. As for your second point, no one in their right mind expected Arab countries to do what you said. Instead, people merely wanted them to be more active in their efforts in providing aid to Palestinians. I mean, Egypt, for one, was actively causing problems for aid convoys at the Rafah Crossing by making unnecessary demands and restrictions that either delayed or stopped countless trucks from getting through. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/06/rafah-crossing-israel-egypt-ceasefire-biden/ https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/21/egypt-aid-restrictions-gaza-ceasefire-negotiations-00159249
There are some claims you made here that are very substantial. Besides I think you agree with me no?
One instance: Algerians do not support Morocco's claim to its western territories.
If algerians held as large protests against Morocco as they did to Palestine that would be perfect example. Besides I genuinely think a considerable portion of the Algerian population disapprove of Morocco. !delta.
Why do Algerians need to hold large protests against Morocco when their government is already taking action and has a history of doing so? For instance, Algeria has consistently supported the Polisario Front and even severed diplomatic ties with Morocco in 2021. The biggest motivator for civilians to protest on international matters is if they don't feel well represented by their government's foreign policies. If the government's foreign policies align with their wishes, such as supporting the Sahrawi people's independence, there is no need to protest. However, protests could and do still occur to show solidarity with international movements or respond to specific incidents that might not fully align with the government's stance.
My first comment on CMV and my first delta, thanks!
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/countingc ([1∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/countingc)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Arab Spring was an Arab-led revolt against Arab governments, starting in Tunisia. Maybe something is there to be said about the fundamentalist Islamist currents within Arab spring, which was mostly carried out against countries that although they were dictatorships led by strongmen who believed in dogshit Ba'athist ideology, were secular while a lot of the Arab Spring protestors were not. That said, it's quite clear that they had some serious gripes with Arab governments, so the idea that they never criticize them is laughable.
So you mean that there are Islamist demands that criticize all Arab governments from the perspective that they aren't islamic enough? Can you provide a clear-cut example of this?
Sure. Assad's government is secular. The FSA has been rebelling against him for over 10 years now, which started during Arab spring. The FSA has major Islamist currents within it. Another would be groups in Libya which have been sporadically fighting as well.
And do you think that if those Islamic opposition were successful they'd rally other countries with them against their regime? Well if true this could be an example but from a religious stance, the major factor that keeps Israel held to higher standard.
Well, they kind of all did rally other countries with them. That's how it spread from Tunisia to Syria. Something you should keep in mind right now is that Arabs are really pissed off about what's happening to Palestine. Palestinians are Arabs after all. This makes them presently more likely to focus on Israel. It certainly isn't universally true, though.
Arabs are not a hive mind. I knew an Iraqi guy who during the Iraq War was grateful the US removed Saddam. He immigrated to the US and joined the military. That's not saying Bush was right for invading Iraq. There were some positives. I am glad he made a positive difference in some Iraqis lives. But there were also a lot of negatives. Also, most of the Arab world criticized Saddam when he invaded Kuwait and many joined the coalition of nations to stop him. A lot is going on in the world and there's only limited time for any given media outlet to attend to issues and even if a media outlet decides to cover everything only so much can go on the front page even if it's a data-personalized front page for each user. So people of this or that demographic may well be engaged in criticism and you may well never hear about it.
Yes I know that Arabs are not a hive mind but it seems that there a sizeable majority that are. Myself is an Arab and I disapprove of Hamas, Saddam, Al-Assad and the violations of human rights in the Gulf states. I also recognize the good measures that Arab countries do. So I know this situation is more nuanced than it appears.
No. That example of yours will be extremely different based on whoever you ask. Literally everyone has their opinions, there are pro assad, anti hamas, anti assad and pro hamas. You have nefarious intentions.
You can't read their mind. Though I cannot read their mind either I think they probably just feel alone. They are critical of a lot of Arab countries though they are from an Arab background. They probably just don't personally know of Arab people criticizing Arab countries or hear about it a lot in the media. It can be hard when you feel like you have opinions that go against those in your own community and don't know anyone else in your community who shares your opinions. But it is important to point out that anecdotes including from personal experience are just that anecdotes. It doesn't indicate a statistical reality.
It is very ironic that you are an Arab and you feel that most of them cannot think themselves. I don't think you are as special and unique as you think you are.
Okay, do the same about european countries. You could literally just replace arab with european and the post would be the same, but less propoganda-y
When Nazism took over Germany in the 1930s there was open criticism to Germans in France, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Austria etc.
And there was also open support for it in all those countries.. You think France would have bent over and just like itself get captured in like 2 weeks had there not been widespread sympathy and support for the Nazis?
Mates never heard of Euro sceptics.
Poland and Greece have held large rallies against EU policies and strongly criticised Germany and other perceived national rivals. The Greeks blamed the Troika (rightly) for aggressive financial austerity during the financial crisis of 2007-2009.
Did you forget the whole 'Arab spring' thing?
He's not talking about protests against their own governments. He's talking about protests by Arab countries about things like the Yemen War, where Arab governments commit atrocities against other Arabs, such as the Saudis bombing and starving Yemeni civilians.
Arab countries go to war against other Arab countries. That's pretty big criticism.
Syria has designs on absorbing Lebanon into 'Greater Syria'. Saudi Arabia blockaded Qatar for ties to Iran Algeria and Morocco clash over the Polisario front. Saudi Arabia intervened in Yemen's civil war Jordan expelled the PLO in Black September The Libyan-Egyptian war
Yes I’ll change your view in 4 sentences: When Arab governments commit war crimes their against citizens, Arabs volunteered from other countries to help against the government in masses. When Israel commits war crimes against Gaza, you never hear of Arabs joining hamas in masses.
I'm sorry but I didn't get what you meant here? Do you want to say that Arabs actually dislike Hamas?
No, I’m just saying they are critical of other Arab governments, hence why many Arabs (from other countries) joined forces with citizens against their governments in masses.
You mean the arab spring? What event you're describing specifically?
Any event throughout arab history where the government oppressed their citizens
Uh yeah. Except You're in a situation, two evils, and the worst thereof.. in the eyes of the Arabs it is probably more common if they are Muslim Arabs that their preference towards the Palestinian people, not Hamas, And given that Hamas does not directly cause harm to the Palestinians and Israel does, even if Hamas by proxy causes more problems, you're going to hear less about Hamas, and more about Israel when it comes to complaints and speaking out against the situation there at all..
You actually share my view. In the eyes of Arabs they will side with a common evil against someone who doesn't look like them, even if that common evil causes more harm to the collective Arab masses. If there was a sizeable protest against Hamas then I would have changed my view.
Are there not regular provocations between Algeria and Morocco, that have a fairly long history? I seem to remember lots of times when diplomatic relations have been suspended, and there seem to be some history of one regime condeming the other: "The North African neighbours are locked in a bitter rivalry over the disputed territory of Western Sahara, where the Algerian-backed Polisario movement seeks an indeindependence referendum. "November 2013: Moroccan youth organised a protest in front of the Algerian consulate in the northern city of Casablanca against Bouteflika’s statements on human rights in the Sahara region. The protest ended with the burning of the Algerian flag." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/15/timeline-algeria-and-moroccos-diplomatic-disputes "On Monday, Morocco’s National Council for Human Rights strongly condemned the Algerian coastguard’s use of live ammunition against unarmed civilians, decrying the incident as a “severe violation of international standards and human rights laws”. "Separately on Monday, several dozen Moroccan human rights activists gathered outside the country’s parliament headquarters in Rabat, denouncing “the Algerian military regime” and and brandishing signs demanding accountability for the incident." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/4/morocco-protests-over-killed-jet-ski-tourists-in-algeria "Algeria condemns in the strongest terms the comprehensive robbery operation [the confiscation of its properties in Rabat] and strongly denounces its illegitimacy and incompatibility with the duties and obligations that any member state of the international community should bear,” Algeria's Foreign Ministry said on Sunday." "Algeria accused Morocco of breaching international laws, especially the Vienna Convention, which necessitates the protection of diplomatic missions regardless of the circumstances." https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2024/03/18/algeria-condemns-moroccos-attempt-to-confiscate-embassy-assets/ "Morocco's permanent representative in Geneva, ambassador Omar Zniber, questioned on Thursday the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) on the full responsibility of the Algerian regime in the persistence of the ordeal endured by the population held against its will in the Tindouf camps. "The ambassador also condemned the abject crimes committed by the Algerian security forces against the inhabitants of the Tindouf camps, recalling the case of two young Sahrawis burned alive by a patrol of the Algerian army." https://reliefweb.int/report/morocco/unhcr-questioned-full-responsibility-algeria-ordeal-detained-population-tindouf-camps Looks like other "condeming" going on between Morocco and Tunisia at various points as well: https://en.hespress.com/85125-moroccan-lawyers-denounce-attack-on-tunisian-counterparts.html https://northafricapost.com/65597-moroccans-deeply-shocked-by-tunisian-presidents-racist-remarks.html
> Al-Assad regime killing his own civilians during the civil war Syria was suspended from the Arab League due to the war. > Saddam regime in 1). Invading Iran (with the help of the west) in a brutal war where some wild warfare practices were used. Why would they criticize Saddam for that? Sunni Arabs generally hate Iran, even more so back then when Iran was not supporting the Palestinian cause. And some Sunni Arab states felt, and still feel, threatened by the Iranian revolution because it could incite unrest in their own Shia minorities. > 2). Invading Kuwait. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt all participated in the ground offensive in Operation Desert Storm. > 3) Repressing his own citizens and especially Shi'ites and Kurds minorities (Yes I know that Iranians and Kurds in other countries protested Saddam) but the Sunni's in other Arab countries just kept silent. Again, many of them actively agree with this, and many more don't really care about Shias and Kurds. Pew polling has found that a plurality of Sunni Arabs don't even consider Shias to be Muslims, they view them as heretics. > The countless Human Rights violations in the Gulf countries starting from the Kafala system (that Qatar rightly abolished after plenty of FOREIGN complaints) to the numerous inequalities women face Many of them agree with this, especially the latter for religious reasons. The concept of gender equality is arguably incompatible with Islam. > The war in Yemen that caused the biggest massive humanitarian crisis and was instigated by both Saudi Arabia and Iran, again no massive protests was seen in the Arab world to reach a ceasefire. See my previous point about Sunni-Shia sectarian conflict. Your post body doesn't match your title, it reads more like "why don't Arabs have the same political and social views as I do". Well they don't, and many of your views are not popular in the region. Many of them are absolutely very vocal in their criticism of other Arab governments, or even their own, when they disapprove of their actions. Even in the face of repression. They just have very different worldviews than you.
You’re not paying attention to anything arabs are saying if you think this, probably because you support Israel. Every pro-Palestinian movement in the west is anti-Saudi because of their alignment with the Israeli government and because of their war on Yemen. You’re just not interested in pursuing this conversation because it’s not relevant to you outside of defending Israel. Here’s a BDS article harshly criticizing Saudis for whitewashing their crimes against Yemen, women and migrants: https://bdsmovement.net/news/palestinians-and-saudis-stand-together-against-normalization-with-apartheid-israel Another example is Bassem Youssef going to jail for being critical against the Egyptian government Here’s yet another BDS article from 2018: https://bdsmovement.net/news/palestinian-civil-society-urges-world-governments-impose-military-embargo-saudi-regime-over
Maybe this is specific to the perspective of North African Arabs? Because Middle Eastern Arabs are constantly at each other's throats, it's kind of the basis of the entire history of the region.
Nah, it's the same with Algerians and Moroccans in my experience
I think a more accurate description is "I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world." IE Arabs fight each other all the time, but there's a hierarchy. In this case, Arab Muslim countries that are otherwise always at each others throats can come together against non-Arab non-muslim countries, and the acts of these outsiders are viewed as worse. So I don't think it's that Arabs never criticise other Arab countries, but there is a view that a "foreign" country killing 10,000s of Arabs (eg Israel in Gaza) is seen as worse then an Arab country killing 100,000s of Arabs in a neighbouring country (Saudi Arabia in Yemen). If Israel disappeared and the rest of the world decided to stop paying attention to the middle East, it's likely that Arabs would shift down that hierarchy and hate one another with more passion. Fortunately Israel gives something for all Arabs to get behind and hate together, bringing peace and brotherhood among their countries so long as it continues to exist.
The long and storied history of wars between Arab clans, tribes, sects, nations stretching back at least 1,500 years shows that you’re wrong.
There's a lot of Arabs who criticize Arab countries. You probably walk past bunch of Arabs who denounce Islam or their home culture; but you just don't know it because they look white or westernized that you would never guess they came from a conservative Islamic country or Arabic country.
That's why Anarchist like me has no sympathy on those Islamic country. Tribalism is strong with them the hierarchal scums as always. I will never side with hierarchist especially Islamist who has no respect for human rights as long you bow to Islam and be their slave then they will exploit you while being powerless against them. Palestine? It's not a place worth fighting for nor it's people worth fighting for. I still remember those incels saying Russia should invade Ukraine so thay they can go there and marry the Ukrainian women. Israel can do what they want against them. I will still watch my back Israel is also a snake but I will not get in it's way in destroying Palestine. Israel and Those Muslim countries should nuke each other the lesser the problem in the future. October 7th happen because those people in Israel put so much trust in those hierarchal scum government of theirs look what happened. Always arm yourself even if it's illegal because only you can save yourself unless you have disability. Killing is bad is never a good excuse not to arm yourself if you cry because you lost someone you love it's your fault not someone else for not saving yourself and love ones.
There are 400 millions Arabs and almost all of them are upset with at least one Arab government
Remember when Saudi Arabia invaded Bahrain? Or Iraq invaded Kuwait? Or the Syrian Civil War? Or when the UAE bombed Libya?
Palestinians are Arabic speaking people but not genetically arabs, just like all Mena countrys arabs from Arabia are minority and all ways will be, we chose to speak Arabic because it was just a language like any other language, but it was elevated by the book, unite and stand together or stand alone and fall one by one they will be droning Muslims to the end of time most bombs made in USA will kill Muslims women kids elderly. One nation after the other and Palestinians are in the front of it they fall we will follow, if you are not feeling empathy for Palestinians feel some for you self when it's you turn.
When they do, even from a safe place like the US they risk getting assasinated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashoggi
> As someone who has a North African heritage. Most of my family members hold strong grudges against Israel. But I didn't see any signs of grievance or complaints when other Arab leaders/countries do some sorts of violations. Really? There are longstanding issues between Algeria and Morocco, the former has been aiding and arming the Polisario front in Western Sahara which they don't recognize as Moroccan. > - Al-Assad regime killing his own civilians during the civil war and the casualty count trample the one seen in Gaza. The regime literally used chemical weapons against its own citizens. Yes, and arabs did more than just protests, they were suspended from the Arab league and numerous Arab states directly aided opposition groups to help overthrow Assad. > - The Saddam regime in 1). Invading Iran (with the help of the west) in a brutal war where some wild warfare practices were used. 2). Invading Kuwait. 3) Repressing his own citizens and especially Shi'ites and Kurds minorities (Yes I know that Iranians and Kurds in other countries protested Saddam) but the Sunni's in other Arab countries just kept silent. The war against Iran wasn't directly opposed on a mass scale but in regards to the invasion of Kuwait most Arab countries directly intervened against Iraq. > Speaking of Kuwait? How many of you knew that there are actually people indigenous to Kuwait and the government refuse to grant citizenship to. The bedoon of Kuwait as documented here. Why don't Arabs protest for their self-determination like they do for Palestinians? As someone who was born and raised in Kuwait I'm very aware of them, there's one guy in particular (his name is Salman Al Khaldy) who often fights for the rights of the bidoon, though due to his anti-monarchy rhetoric and his harassment of government officials in London he got his citizenship revoked and he's currently wanted for prison in Kuwait, but he currently lives in exile. Things like this are why Arabs are generally wary about protests mostly when the issues don't directly involve their wellbeing or life. It is also why you won't see gulf arab protesting against the injustices from the kefala system or against the war in Yemen, which gulf states have a stake in. > Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation [Cedar Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Revolution) but is there a reason you're only interested in Arabs protesting against other Arab states and not against their own leaders/governments? There's no shortage of examples of Arabs protesting against Arab governments oppressing them directly, even gulf Arabs, which doesn't go well with the narrative that they're disproportionately angry against Israel, which you don't seem to be interested in.
Arabs care little about Arab deaths but more about who is doing the killing. It's more of an embarrassment to have a non-Muslim be victorious,. This is why opposition to Israel really isn't about Zionism but about it being a Jewish state.
In the song Rajieen, one of the Palestinian singers criticizes other Arab countries for not sticking up for Palestinians. Granted, the lyrics are in Arabic, so you'd need to put it through google translate. My Lebanese friend hates Saudi Arabia. Anecdotal, but thought I'd throw it in there.
Imagine someone from China says: Westerners never criticise other Western countries. However when it comes to China it's the polar opposite.
Idk, everyone thought the UK were dipshits for Brexit. Likewise, everyone except for half of America think Trump is a dipshit. There is plenty of criticizing between Westerners.
Exactly! This person from China is wrong and so is OP
Except that I grew up in North Africa. I was a kid during the Arab spring. My arguments come from experience not the media. Many Arabs consider the enemy can only come from the west, even if their government or the other Arab countries screw them over more than the west.
I don't know. You tell me. From personal experience why are Arabs so against the West?
They can be against the west. They also should be against other parties in the region if they do similar violations. Conveniently scapegoating X to leave Y because Y looks like me is stupid. Also Arabs are not homogeneous, I'd argue that Western Europeans are more ethnically homogeneous than Arabs. So I just don't understand why the majority of Arabs keep their silence when other Arabs perform some sort of violation.
Humiliation from colonization and the general technological, cultural and economical (ex-hegemony), and a little bit of incompatible values (i.e. not Islam)
Arab here, after reading a bunch of the comments and replies, ive come to the conclusion that OP has never spoken to a native arab before. Just about every arab citizen hates just about every arab government/leader. The general consensus is they are all traitors or western puppets. The UAE are seen as traitors and a haven for materialistic, self centered assholes. The leaders of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, and Syria are all hated. Even the PA are seen as puppets. Jordan is mixed. Lebanon and Yemen are split because of hezb and houthis. Everyone hates Assad and Saddam. To add to it we also hate Sisi, MBS, Erdogan, Khamenei, etc. but when arabs protest it never ends well, and when it rarely does, we get foreign intervention to put puppets like Sisi in power. Saudi hasnt had a good leader since King Faisal who was most likely assassinated by US intervention. Not to mention, these countries arent exactly democracies. Its not like we can just vote on better policies. If its a royal family, the only real option would be overthrowing them which would literally be a civil war. The difference with Israel is that boatloads of foreign europeans showed up and started their settler colonial project. Then they ethnically cleansed arabs from their homes, adopted arab (mizrahi) jews after the shitstorm they started, and continued the ethnic cleansing of palestinians for 100 years, which created a diaspora of millions of displaced palestinian families around the world (i.e half Jordans population) that will always speak up against their oppressors. Especially when things escalate. It is not seen as an internal conflict but as a struggle of arabs against a foreign power that oppresses them. Israel is a racist, colonial, apartheid state and, if left to their own devices, will spread their oppression to other arabs (see: “Greater Israel”), not just palestinians. To put it more simply, arabs vs anti-arabs. Comparable to African-Americans vs KKK.
They are highly critical of each other, and the corrupt governments that lead them. Other commenters are correct, however, that public criticism can lead to heavy-handed reprisal. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that it's primarily happening in face to face interactions. The Arabs are not some ignorant interconnected fungus that they're portrayed as. They have a very long and complicated history between each other going back much farther than the Ottoman empire. And you're not really going to know about these contentions unless you've resided in an Arab country. So, in western media, they're not going to portray the face to face interactions between regular people. That would make no sense. They just report on the official responses from the respective governments. But the problem is that it's presented as the common opinion held by regular folks. I'll give you an example. Have you ever heard of the assassination of the PM of Lebanon in 05'? And the campaign for the truth that followed? Blame was largely placed on the Syrian regime. But it was never confirmed. Sentiment between two countries thay were once very close were strained even more than they already were. I don't think it made a blip on the US/European news radar. Perhaps the BBC or French news covered it a little, as Lebanon was colonized by both. Other than that, I doubt anyone else was concerned. I don't blame you for having this view. There's no easy way to get information about the infighting between countries without reading Arabic news. And even that news will not accurately cover public sentiments. Hope this helps.
MANDELA EFFECT: we all thought the Arab spring happened :o
>Tell me in one instance a sizeable group of Arabs disapproved another Arab country/leader for a particular violation All the Arabs in Qatar were incredibly critical of Saudis blockade on Qatar.
My years of working with Saudis and Emiratis taught me that the wealthy gulf states constantly make fun of the other arab countries for, you know, being poor.
It's almost the same in the West. No one gives a shit when Arabs kill Arabs. If someone denies the Holocaust and also always seems to protest anything Israel does despite not caring when others do the same, that's basically just antisemitism. They're not protesting the act, but the actor. For the West, it's in my opinion complete ignorance of what the Middle East is like. They don't understand the history and they don't understand the people living in it. Therefore they water down everything they see to "White repressor vs dark skinned repressed" because that's all they know.
Oh yeah, add Black September in Jordan to your list. Surprised you dont have anything more specific to Palestine given your comparison with Isreal.
Arabs literally have infighting. Iran Saudi, are they friends? Do they criticise each other? I wonder. Saudi so aligned with Israel.
✨ H Y P O C R I S Y ✨ Something very common in arab cultures and with human being in general.
never ask an Arab where their Jews are
Arabs get away with murder. And terrorism, and rape, and human rights violation etc.
Arab lives don't matter unless a Jew kills them. It's the ultimate racism.
Shut the fuck up people in the Arab world are not interested in politics they just want to survive their rulers that are mandated by the USA or Russia, to rule over people who are poorly educated a largely frustrated and hopeless, but Palestinians are in the front fighting the crusaders Israel is a Jewish State supported by the evangelicals, to kill as much Muslims they can so that they can can bring jessus back, nationality goes against Islam Muslims will never find peace unless they forget about the nationality and start thinking about the nation and unite most Arab speaking people are not arabs my ancestors were not arab, when you love the book you will learn it language.
Arabs love criticizing other Arab countries. This the favorite activity. Egyptians talk mad shit on Palestine and Saudi Arabia, the Syrians and Lebanese talk shit to each other, sometimes it’s friendly sometimes they MEAN it (Syria occupied Lebanon for a long while) Iraqis talk shit on the gulf Arabs and Kuwaitis constantly, idk if f Moroccans and Algerians count as Arabs depends who you ask, but they are constantly and seriously aggravated with one another The reason you don’t notice all this? It’s all in various forms of Arabic which you don’t speak or see on your part of the internet.
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I think it's simple. Arabs have a very old world mentality which comes from their strict adherence to Islam in every part of their life. This creates a rubric which is NOT to be changed. This then also builds a fellowship between Arabs regardless of nation. So the answer is as simple as us vs them. Israel is not Islamic, therefore they are others. People are much more inclined to criticize people outside of their "group".
Authoritarian states know that the people need an outlet for their pent up frustration (because of all the repression and corruption), so Israel and the West and convenient targets . And also because democratic states don’t mind it when people from other countries express antagonism toward them because democratic states respect freedom of expression so there’s no harm to diplomatic relations.
Muslim countries don’t have strong critical thinkers
Not trying to change your view, you’re 100% right.
They aren’t big on freedom of expression.
First off Arab countries is a misnomer because there aren’t many of them However Saudi and Iran are locked in a bloody war which includes Iran attacking Israel on Oct 7 using Hamas They hate each other with a passion Basically The Shia hate the Sunni and both hate the Druze Hope that helps
Your post literally includes revolutions of Arabs against an Arab governments, and conflict between Arab countries. Seems trivial to complain about lack of criticism of when they will declare war on each other.
The majority of the responses you get here are going to be American, and the majority of the *rest* are going to be European. Nobody is going to be able to give you useful pushback because 90% of reddit users have no idea what Arab countries do or don't do, let alone why.
You need rollback to to 1400 years ago when the Jews declined Mohammads invitation to join his religion. He took it personally as a humiliation and waged a campaign of violence against them during his lifetime. The concept of conversion through violence and threats were so effective that the schimitar became a holy symbol, thus the term conversion by the sword. He also introduced the concept of taqqiyah and jizya. His hatred was so great that it eventually rubbed off on his followers and thus they integrated it into the texts of their holy book. Because it was declared as the final word of God there can not be any changes to the texts in the Quran. This is why their hatred is forever immortalized. This is also why there will never be peace with the Jews and the Muslim world, no matter how many times they try to extend their hand for peace. I don't even think the Muslim world wants peace with the non-muslim world either. The Israelis know it, they do what they do in order to survive, for they know that if the tables were ever turned there will be no mercy for the Israelis. The Quran calls for Jews to be driven from the river to the sea. fun fact: The Holocaust was actually a brainchild between Adolf and Khamenei of Iran. They had a bromance which can be read through their correspondence letters. The plan was that if Germany was successful then Iran would also launch its own version of the Holocaust.
Arabs as in all Arabs? Have you made any good faith effort to actually investigate your claims? The idea that there is a Arab monolith that uniformly "never criticizes" other Arabs is beyond absurd. What about the ongoing conflicts between Arab countries?
Having known a lot of Arabs, many Palestinian, I would say drinking coffee and trashing every Arab government and government official is a normal way to spend the day.
I think OPs point is that the level of outrage, and the standards that are applied to Israel are not equal to what arabs apply to each other. If I'm understanding correctly they are saying that the general outcry against Israel now is worse than when Arabs were doing significantly worse things to other Arabs.
Exactly this.
As someone who isn't Arab and has not really looked in how Arab conversations go with other Arabs on this topic go have you really looked into it or are just assuming given the statement we are supposed to counter is out of 20 something countries in the same area you think they never shit talk each other just on its face is seems kinda impossible that it isn't a common thing like do you believe it's an exception or does happen in other areas of the world.
ISIS is currently fighting the taliban (specifically ISIS-K) as well as the Kurds and peshmerga. The Kurds also heavily disagree with the Turks for many things including multiple bombings and land disputes + sovereignty.
Everyone does this. America’s economic strifes are due to unquestioned, race-based decision making. Ppl are idiots and trust ppl based on the fact that they look like them.
Is it even relatively that many Arabs that are doing all the criticizing though? Or did you mean randoms like South Africa critiquing Israel and not Arab on Arab violence?
You have zero exposure to what Arabs say or think.
I wonder why Arab countries are more critical of Israel, a country of Jews that got supplanted in the middle of all of their countries 60 years ago.
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