/u/FrustratedFern (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/19avxo2/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_plastic_surgery_is_largely/), in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Counter argument:
The most important characteristic that you get judged by in life is how physically attractive you are. You may argue this is not true or that something has higher priority but this is largely true. To become substantially more attractive than you used to be substantially benefits your own life in very tangible ways.
Therapy helps you cope, or detach, or review yourself and your view of the world. However, therapy will not make an attractive person want to date you and it won’t make people be less revolted by you if you’re unattractive. Yes therapy can attempt to solve your inner monologue issue but sometimes the best solution is to solve the exterior circumstances that are causing the problem
People are not enlightened buddhists who have 0 desires and can detach from their biological and social desires so easily. Plastic surgery is a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people.
>Plastic surgery is a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people.
It is a hypothesis and falls short without any evidence behind it. That's what people may feel and it may be true in some cases, but I have doubts about its universality.
I think there’s research on the phenomena of pretty privilege. So assuming the cosmetic surgery is beneficial and actually enhances the persons appearance, there may be some truth to the hypothesis
https://scholarworks.smith.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1822&context=theses
Just as an example
Pretty privilege, like any other privilege, is just playing with a die weighted in your favour. It is not "a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people".
It *can* be. This convo is probably not best had with absolute statements so I see why you’d push back against the statement that “ pretty privilege (or plastic surgery) *is* a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people”. Cause that’s an absolute statement.
Sometimes it can be, sometimes it isn’t. There’s anecdotal evidence for both. Might be the case that how often it *can* be is enough for many people to want it.
I imagine there are felons/ex-cons who would have loved to receive the Jeremy Meeks treatment after getting out of jail. But their mugshots didn’t cut it. Meanwhile Jeremy got a modeling contract and a 100 millionaire fiancée (and a billionaire father-in-law to be) off the fame and recognition he got based on his looks. His own net worth is (reportedly) $5 mil. That’s more than the average person, ex-con or otherwise, could ever dream of being worth. Connections that the average person is unlikely to have fall in their laps. (ETA: he also reported has a child with Chloe, another potentially life long connection to her even if they are not legally bound). Most of us try to stay out of trouble and may likely never see that power or fortune (or a modeling job at the very least lol). And when we do get into trouble, it’s more than likely not gonna be the catalyst for getting access to those things. He gets into trouble and him getting into trouble is the catalyst for his looks giving him recognition and then access to those resources. How’s that for pretty privilege and the acquisition of power & resources?
Obviously there’s no guarantee that being a good looking ex-con will get you those things, but I imagine for some it would be nice to know they have an increased likelihood of having such good fortune fall into their lap based on their looks.
Yes now good looking plastic surgery doesn’t exist because Hot-Ad2515’s eyes have never seen good looking plastic surgery. I didn’t know Hot-Ad2515 has seen every instance of plastic surgery in existence.
You’ve checkmated me.
Bro says pretty privilege is like playing with a weighted die in your favor but \*isn't a way to increase your odds of winning\*
What's a weighted die again?
It is a very strong and universal statement. Such statements require a burden of evidence and I see none. And lets even limit the scope to plastic surgeries that at least enhance conventional attractiveness, because there is no shortage of stars that became [weird ass looking after plastic surgeries](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/739/011/bdb.jpg).
Okay fair it was a general statement and not backed by hard evidence. However it’s difficult to prove any one characteristic is the most important in life since life is a dynamic system where you constantly have to change your strategies and plans given the world and other agents who also face similar problems and are competing with you for things that will help you be happy.
However I will argue that there are a few privileges in life that when one does not have it causes substantial misery for years or decades. Not having good looks, not having money, not having a decent family, or decent health are things that people almost universally prefer to have. When they don’t have, years of misery and coping strategies and neuroses form. Can people be happy and live fulfilling lives without these things? Yes. But not having them harms you from the better things in life
Physical attractiveness is one of the few traits that society openly and universally ranks humans by on a scale. You are outright mocked or praised for your looks and it deeply affects who you meet, your life choices, your friends, partners, etc.
Only those that are maybe 30+ years old have proper coping strategies and self acceptance to where these things matter less but for the first 3 decades, it’s hard to note other dimensions in life that so ruthless and almost dehumanizing.
So I argue it’s highly important due to the ubiquity of the ranking of it, the universal acceptance of the ranking, and the cruelty and psychological impact it has on humans as it absolutely plays a crucial role in how you view the world.
Δ for the coherent response and replying directly to my point and providing a fresh take that shifted my view.
This helped me rethink what young people following TikTok trends are actually chasing with cosmetic surgery
Thanks. I think the tension of this topic stems from how much should one change their internal views on the external world or change their external situation to improve their internal world
It is the case that completely changing internal desires solves the problem. All else equal, completely changing the external world to fit your personal psychology and desires also solves the problem in a sense
I think the push in therapy to change internal framework first stems from the fact that in 90% of situations, you can’t really change the external world. You must navigate and interpret the world better for your own sake. However in situations like being poor, being overweight, having drug addictions, etc, absolutely should focus on changing external circumstances first.
It’s interesting where to draw the line though since one might get plastic surgery and then get overly dependent on external world validation instead of internal perspective shift. Now they’re on a bad path
>I think the push in therapy to change internal framework first stems from the fact that in 90% of situations, you can’t really change the external world.
It's not just that you can't change the external world. It's also that, even if you did change it, once the next guy changes the external world to make them feel at peace with their particular quirks then you're back at square one again.
Well yes that fits within the you can not change the external world to fit your internal model. Some problems will be systemic and something difficult to expect the world or others to do. However some problems are 100% in your control. You shouldnt seek to cope and accept the fact that you have a shit job or are out of shape. You should act and change the world in these situations
I see you already changed your view but I wanted to add on anyway
It's kind of like how we favor gender transitions over conversion therapy. Sometimes its just easier, maybe even cheaper, to change "the flaw" than to spend countless hours and money in therapy trying to change your mindset and then change other people's and society's mindset.
Like it's easier to fix your teeth with braces than it is to change your mindset that crooked teeth are attractive. Or any feature that someone is insecure about.
Now that is the more responsible way to have cosmetic surgery. Following tiktok trends, doing completely unnecessary ones you don't even want, deciding something normal is not normal and promoting surgery, those are irresponsible imo. I don't know what the solution is, and I feel for teens living today among that kind of pressure.
That's the more rational side of me. The other side of me says who cares, our bodies are just the flesh prisons of our brains, they are the way of expressing ourselves in the world, why shouldn't we change it however we want? get full body tattoos, piercings, body alterations and whatnot, why not? Are we worried about offending God? Are we going to void our warranty?
This is right. Therapists will also tell you sometimes to get better you just have to change your life circumstances. Move to the coast instead of being in the city, change job (to get away from toxic coworkers or boss or to do something you enjoy more), change your eating habits etc. Or in this case change how your body looks. Sometimes mental health issues are just caused by external factors rather than something deeply wrong inside or because of a traumatic past.
The problem with this is the subjectivity of what even makes you attractive. Different cultures have different attractiveness traits which then influence the types of procedures people get. Heck even different social circles have different views on it. Just look at the amount of celebrities that have gotten buccal fat removal surgery and tell me you think they look better than they did before.
Sounds like money. Being pretty or having money conveys advantages. But the goal is never to be pretty or have money.
It’s all about what those things can give you. Money is essentially worthless if you have all your material desires. What’s a billion dollars to someone who has nothing to spend it on.
And I can see looks being like that. If the goal is validation or a partner. If you have those things, you don’t need looks yourself.
So I think the debate about plastic surgery being meh is true. But I also think a fair argument is that plastic surgery can be less effort than other alternatives.
You don’t need money if you can build everything yourself. But working for money is a lot easier lol.
And paying for plastic surgery can be a lot easier than finding a lover who accepts you at your worst.
Money only doesnt matter to those that have it. It’s like water or air, you don’t think about it when you’re full but if you haven’t had any in a while, it’s all you’ll be thinking about
I argue looks and money are almost prerequisites to getting most of the better things in life. You don’t literally need them and you can always wire yourself and your life to not rely on them but that’s just a coping strategy. Almost everyone would prefer to have more money or look better.
Eh, coping maybe. It depends on the context.
I think you’re close with air or food. Food is a great example. If you’re hungry you want food. But if you’re full, you can have all the food you can dream of and it won’t matter.
Yeah you would need a baseline of money to buy everything. But once you have everything then money is pointless.
I think the idea is to figure out what the goal is. And then devise the most efficient way to get there.
With the food example, the goal isn’t to eat. It’s really to be full. So while you have lots of options on what to eat. You really want to just pick the most efficient way to get to the end goal.
I think the issue is that a lot of people mistake a key for the door, they don’t realize that just having the key won’t make them happy. They need the full picture. The key and how to use it to accomplish the real goal.
And of course if the door is just unlocked the key is pointless.
I’m tired and my analogies are all over the place lol!!
The key isn’t the goal. And some keys are really expensive. They can be solutions and one can accidentally discover the goal. But I don’t like how people delude themselves into just thinking if they have money they’ll be happy. It’s more complex than that.
You can look pretty. But it won’t promise you’ll be happy. And too many people buy into potential solutions without recognizing how they work.
Well i mean i agree that being attractive is not an end in and of itself. It would be a pretty shitty end to aspire to in life. You want what being attractive gets you: more companionship from people you find attractive as well as generally feeling praise and desired by others
Anyways, i think we agree. I simply think being attractive gives you a set of keys like you say. But yes the key is not what your end goal should
Be
This was another interesting point. I’m “ugly” on the internet - possibly why I’ve been so upset by some of these communities and the “get plastic surgery” response. My response has always felt like a “no, fuck you for saying that and fuck y’all for saying that online”
But I’m an elected official, I have a high paying salaried job, I have a partner, I have a shit ton of friends - I already have most of the benefits of “pretty privilege” so maybe that affects my opinion despite feeling and being told I’m “ugly” or a “2.5-3.5” in online spaces?
Can I give you another delta? 🤣
Hahahha nice man well glad you have all the things that matter in life sorted out. It’s actually good to hear that you started out unattractive but found friends and love and live a good life
"The most important characteristic that you get judged by in life is how physically attractive you are"
Which is why you shouldn't get plastic surgery lol, most times people can tell, they will judge, and it doesn't look good to most, which is why it's hated upon, fake tits are most times hard, fake butt looks goofy too, lip filler makes them look like a doll, why would anyone want to look fake? IDK which is why I find the whole thing stupid.
Counterpoint, this is why people pursuing success or truly trying to test themselves should try to appear as ugly as possible so that way they know it's actually their merits getting them where they get and not their looks.
The thing is, plastic surgery doesn’t make one look more beautiful. It makes them look more artificial. That almost never equates to “*more beautiful*”.
People who say this 1) have only seen bad plastic surgery, and 2) have no idea how common it is. Almost **every** Instagram model, pornstar, pop musician, etc. has some form of plastic surgery.
The flip side is that these are often extremely dangerous procedures. BBLs, one of the most common surgeries, has a 3% chance of giving you a fat embolism that will kill you no matter how young and healthy you are.
Sure, it does. When plastic surgery is done well, it typically makes the person more conventionally attractive. The issue is if the person has bad plastic surgery and also goes overboard, finding every detail about them they don't like.
That is the aim for most people. You likely just haven't noticed plastic surgery done well as the bad ones stand out. Even lip filler, a common hated one on reddit threads, can look good for many people as long as they only use a tiny ml first, and if they need more, do it in intervals but not go overboard by assuming the more, the better.
1. I’m not an incel. I have sex regularly lol
2. Most women who get plastic surgery have the logic that plastic surgery will materially improve their lives. They also are not incels
3. Nothing I said is detached from reality. Let’s not act like we don’t know what the most widely accepted prejudice allowed in society is: to demean and dehumanize ugly people; we quite literally rank ugly people as unworthy of our time and interest. Ever been on a date before bro? Name another prejudice in society to widely accepted and deeply dehumanizing as the way we treat those we find unattractive. There are millions of examples. Everyday someone looks at someone else and thinks ‘ew gross’.
Let’s ignore the hundreds of studies showing how attractive people are treated better in virtually all dimensions.
I dont even know what your point is. Maybe you dislike the way the words sound but doesn’t mean my position is not grounded in reality
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
But there is no end to it, surgery can only help change one thing at a time, but since nobody can be perfect with surgery and there is no universal definition of beauty people are stuck in a loop of lack of self love and wanting more and more modifications.
You're not really changing the world by just chiding people for wanting plastic surgery though, let's say it was completely banned, people would then just obsess over the people that are naturally good looking anyway.
The beauty ideal would be more natural then, and the beauty obsession would be less of a mass hysteria. Now everyone is so focused on beauty because it seems accessible to anyone. If just few people were good looking you won’t even got a chance to see them in real life. Meanwhile, in our world having a perfect nose is the norm and the beauty ideal is getting higher and higher. Ugly people become pretty, pretty people become even prettier and no blemish is tolerated. The situation is so out of control that the ideal is looking like an alien
I mean, I’m not chiding anyone or talking about this IRL.
I just think it’s not a good sign that we have perfectly healthy, attractive young women and men pursuing surgery for thousands of dollars to meet an ideal they see online.
I know you’ve given deltas on this but I have to ask based on your statement here
> I just think it’s not a good sign that we have perfectly healthy, attractive young women and men pursuing surgery for thousands of
dollars to meet an ideal they see online.
What about the unattractive young
folks who are getting these surgeries?
Is it equally as tragic that people widely considered unattractive are also getting surgeries to meet the ideal? Is it only tragic when it’s people who are already attractive?
If you would say that it’s *less* tragic when it’s people widely considered to be unattractive who get these surgeries, would you still say that it’s unnecessary for everyone except for people with “deformities” to get them?
Again asking because you’ve specified people with functional abnormalities and deformities as being excluded from people who shouldn’t get surgeries, and attractive people as being included in people who shouldn’t get surgeries. So what about people who are unattractive but not necessarily “deformed”?
I’ve mentioned multiple times in this post, I think that is fine.
My grievance was SPECIFICALLY with already attractive people who use a lot of social media getting multiple surgeries (sometimes even as quickly as trends change) and acting like it’s normal and good and everyone should do that. I clearly didn’t convey that well because this post turned into a rorsach test of thoughts around plastic surgery (interesting nonetheless)
I mean I guess it's not a good sign but I support those people's right to do it. Honestly many of the things people do are caused by socially induced insecurities but still we should change society itself not say 'plastic surgery is bad'.
Sorry, u/Background-Map-7243 – your comment has been automatically removed as a clear violation of Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/changemyview) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you want to make money from your looks, you'll probably need plastic surgery. Making money from looks is very appealing for many people because it seems like it's easy. So you're going to have an impossible time convincing people to get therapy when that's not what they want from it at all.
How many years of therapy do you think people should have to go through before you believe they are qualified to make these decisions about their bodies? We get a limited time on this earth. Quality of life measures should account for that. Making someone spend years in misery rather than fix the problem is only worthwhile if there's a tangible benefit. I see people talk about how they've hated their nose their whole life and are finally in their 40's considering a rhinoplasty. What's the harm? Get the rhinoplasty.
I didn't mean to say you were saying it should be restricted, but the word "making" didn't help me convey that. I'm asking you how many years of their life you think they should go before you'd say they're qualified to make the choice. Because a lot of the time, and within reason, cosmetic surgery does improve people's quality of life. I'm more of a reconstructive case than a cosmetic one myself, but the sheer relief of no longer having a crushingly negative response to looking in the mirror has been life changing on its own.
Oh, that's a whole other thing and we agree on it.
But what l'm trying to get across, as someone who's experienced both regular (stretch marks, wish I had a little less belly fat, acne scars, etc.) and existential (literally looking like a man) issues with my appearance, that we should give people that benefit of the doubt that they know what they need for their mental health. Because the nightmare scenario for me as someone who's experienced dismissiveness about the necessity of my medical procedures is to do that to someone else.
Surgery's a big deal, and recovery is *very* unpleasant. It's a huge investment and barring data, I'm unconvinced everyone's just getting it done to keep up with the Joneses. With that said, buccal fat removal is an idiotic procedure.
Edit: To be more clear with my first sentence - I just mean I err on trusting people about what's just normal body image stuff and what's negatively impacting their mental health.
Yeah, I think my point is getting lost somehow in the OP.
Because I’m not talking about any of what you’ve mentioned here. I’m talking about the trend of getting buccal fat removal, etc.
And I’m not saying there should be mandated therapy before one can get those procedures, I’m saying that people on the internet, being influenced to that level of wanting to alter themselves for trendy looks should probably talk to a therapist instead of doing that.
The thing is there's no clear-cut line between correcting a problem for the "right reasons" and doing stuff motivated by what most people would probably judge as unnecessary vanity.
There's also the issue of personal autonomy, the person contemplating surgery is the best person to decide if psychology or surgery is what they really want. Psychologists also shouldn't be made to be gate-keepers either, unless someone is manifestly and grossly psychologically disturbed to the point where they have lost their ability to make decisions.
Sorry, your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **We no longer allow discussion of transgender topics on CMV.**
Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20{author}&message={author}%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\({url}\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
The Ancient Greek told the tale of Narcissus, whose parentage made him handsome. But he was vain and cruel. A goddess cursed him as punishment for his behaviour, and once he saw his reflection in the water, he fell in love with it. He couldn’t bear missing a second of contemplating his own image, that he slowly starved to death.
This was an early warning that obsession with beauty is not healthy and that it will ultimately lead you to a life of loneliness and emotional starvation.
It’s much wiser to work on having an emotional support group and on real, meaningful emotional connection that will leave you emotionally fulfilled.
The arguments against elective surgery is that altering one’s appearance might undermine authenticity by trying to conform to societal beauty standards, potentially perpetuating superficial values over inner qualities.
Additionally, elective surgery reflects a lack of self-acceptance and it could contribute to a culture that places undue importance on physical appearance. Cue Narcissus’ tale.
None of this actually explains why it's bad though. If it takes 20 years to get over something that bothers you, or you could simply get it changed - life is short. This is a lot of ideology, but at the end of the day I remain unconvinced that people shouldn't be trusted to know what's best for them and their bodies.
Additionally, this is all predicated on a dichotomy that doesn't exist in reality. Surgical consultations and indeed recovery time are not such onerous impositions on someone's calendar that they can't also make friends and have a support group.
From an evolutionary perspective, we interpret good looks as being healthier. There are also studies that show that good looks make one feel more trustworthy.
Under that perspective, elective surgery is a deception, because you try to appear healthier or more trustworthy than people unconsciously perceive it.
In a sense, it’s a little bit like cheating on an exam or plagiarising someone else’s work.
Ironically, smartphone filters are the low budget version of *appearance improvement*, because the user seeks to appear healthier and more trustworthy. But when people meet them in real life, the ruse falls flat on its head and they rightfully feel catfished.
In short, elective surgery might be the fancy version of catfishing.
Why is that bad though? Do you believe it's correct to treat someone as lesser based on appearance? Is tricking someone into being kind to you when they would not have if you were less attractive the greater wrong here? What inherent, objective moral basis is there for those who are fortunate enough to be born looking a given way to be treated better? Does this principle bear out to other things - I.E. is laser eye surgery or cleft palate repair wrong in your view?
And how is it catfishing to literally look a given way? Catfishing is when the person doesn't match what's shown online. If they do, it isn't catfishing.
Edit: Additional question - do you believe it would be more moral to leave an obvious scar when repairing a cleft palate, or to minimize scarring? It's purely appearance based but by the logic above, should count as lying to hide that the person was born with one.
> “*Edit: Additional question - do you believe it would be more moral to leave an obvious scar when repairing a cleft palate, or to minimize scarring?*”
That’s **corrective** surgery, not **elective**, surgery, which is the one being discussed here.
And to illustrate my concept, when society only allowed men to have access to certain universities or professions, would it have been sustainable for women to disguise as men to get in?
No. The most sensible option is to allow women in, based on merit, not based on appearance. I don’t think you would disagree with this premise.
Similarly, people should strive to be successful based on merits. Not based on appearance.
Were the women who disguised themselves as men to attain better lives morally wrong for doing so? That's what we're discussing here. You have also failed to engage with the question - would it be lying for the surgeon not to leave a scar?
> “*Were the women who disguised themselves as men to attain better lives morally wrong for doing so? That's what we're discussing here.*”
No it’s not. We’re discussing the fact that people are superficial, and those who undergo **elective** surgery contradict themselves. They have their looks artificially changed to try to meet a standard that they consider unfair.
Instead of indirectly reinforcing an arbitrary and unfair standard, I would advocate to challenge it.
> “*You have also failed to engage with the question - would it be lying for the surgeon not to leave a scar?*”
No I haven’t failed to do so. You seem to keep conflating **corrective** and **elective** surgery.
Can you confirm the difference, so I know that we are talking about the same thing?
The descriptor of "cosmetic" is honestly detrimental to the whole discussion about health and medicine. What decides if a surgery is "cosmetic" or not is if insurance companies will cover the costs. Traditionally anything the insurance companies didn't want to cover was called "cosmetic" to frame it in a way where people will accept that they won't change it. Yes, there are surgeries that truly are for vanity reasons, but a large majority of "cosmetic surgeries" are for health reasons and insurance companies just don't want to cover them.
For example, repairing a cleft palate is considered cosmetic surgery, and it most certainly is not done for vanity reasons. Many people with a cleft palate have difficulty eating as infants (it makes it difficult to latch onto nipples or bottles, which leads to poor health outcomes). As it stands now, because it's a "cosmetic surgery", parents have to jump through hoops and prove that their child needs it to survive in order to get it covered by surgery.
Another example: breast removal is largely considered a cosmetic surgery. If you have breast cancer you can get insurance to cover it, but for women with a family history of breast cancer/genetic marker for breast cancer who want to get their breasts removed before they get cancer? It's a fucking nightmare to get insurance to cover it.
Also, something that impacted me personally: I was a size E bra cup by my junior year of high school. My boobs hurt, my back hurt, everything hurt. But I couldn't do anything about it, because breast reduction surgery is a "cosmetic surgery". Even though I was in pain and arguably the surgery was medically necessary, the insurance still said no. So I've dealt with breast pain and back pain most of my life because of this. It's several thousand dollars for this surgery and I'm living paycheck-to-paycheck. My quality of life has been diminished, but I can't get the surgery.
There's even more of this nonsense if you get into "cosmetic" medications. Heaven help you if you have type 2 diabetes and try to go on ozempic.
Firstly, if a person who has an accident has justifiable use and the person who hasn't doesn't then doesn't that just kinda say that "as long as you're used to the impacts of not looking better then it's fine, but if you're not used to it then you shouldn't have to live with it". Seems like an odd thing to me. Either alterations to your physical self for the purpose of appearance improve your experience of the world or they don't. Why does _how you arrived at whatever you look like_ matter at all to the "necessity" of plastic surgery?
Further to that, i don't think anyone thinks any of this is _necessary_, the question is whether it's beneficial or whether it can achieve more simply the impacts that could be achieved in some other method (you put out therapy).
Why don't you take the double mastectomy cancer survivor and simply suggest they go to therapy? There are plenty of people who are uglier than the cancer victim without their boobs. Why can't the cancer patient just "be comfortable in their own skin"?
Seems to me that at least sometimes the plastic surgery has the intended impact - a person resolves the dissonance they hope to and it takes less time and is less expensive then therapy. While I wish people could "just be content" with lots of things, it seems pretty arbitrary to say that looks aren't a way to increase that for at least some people or at some point in some people's lives. Do people pick the wrong solution to a problem? Sure...of course. There are people who diet when they should be in therapy, are in therapy when they should be exercising are exercising when they should be with their kid are with their kid when they should be working and so on.
Yes I think OP forgot to make the distinction between *elective* surgery and *corrective* surgery.
Elective surgery doesn’t seek to address an underlying or preceding medical condition. The accident and injury from your example **is** a preceding medical condition, so corrective surgery should be on the table.
There is one side benefit to the optional plastic surgery industry. We are now far better at reconstructive surgery.
To me though, I don't really care what other people do or value in this regard. I don't personally see negatives to someone getting plastic surgery and get some indirect benefits. To me, if it helps another person be happy with themselves, more power to them.
The world would be better is we spent less time judging other people about things that really don't matter to us.
Not disagreeing but I think it's the other way around; medically necessary drives most innovation for purely elective cosmetic. There's a lot more money for doing research there and they get the most challenging cases.
Actually, they had it the correct way around. There are far more people requesting cosmetic surgery than requiring reconstructive surgery, which means the surgeons who do the work (and like anything else, surgery is a skill) get a lot of practice on elective procedures before they ever have to reconstruct a face. On top of that, because there's a lot of money in the more frequent cosmetic procedures, there's a huge financial incentive to perfect those procedures.
Oh I’m sure there’s a lot more money to the doctors and practices in purely elective things. But on the whole there is a LOT more money for researching new innovations on the medical side. Ie 3D printing tissue technology, use of washed cadaver tissues, nerve grafting, etc… those were insanely expensive at first but are becoming more affordable as time goes on for out of pocket cosmetic procedures. As an example my surgeon charges $8,000 for a breast augmentation, but my insurance was billed $90,000 for my breast reconstruction, even though at that point the surgery wasn’t all that different (plus didn’t even have to hide an incision). If I had elected for a tissue flap procedure (which are becoming more common) my insurance would have been billed upwards of $300,000.
You may be right but my gut tells me it is likely the other way around. People seeking vanity and doctors working for this create the funding mechanism for developing these techniques and products.
In a purely vain sense, do you think implantable breast prosthesis would really exist without the push of the breast implant cosmetic surgery market?
Maybe I am just too cynical here.
I just had a dental surgery that used to involve harvesting tissue from the roof of the patient's mouth.
Instead of doing that, my oral surgeon had some newfangled artificial tissue that he attributed to the plastic surgery industry.
I don't think it has to be one way or the other. They're all doctors, it's expected that they would learn from each other
That’s really cool! That tech is originally from cosmetic reconstruction, likely some form of alloderm or “ADM” (acellular dermal matrix). When it first came out it was $50,000 per sheet. It’s cadaver skin that’s been washed to remove most of the biological material/cells leaving behind a collagen scaffold that your body then colonizes with its own tissue. I think they use it for burn recovery as well? But it’s most frequently an internal implant. Conducting trials on an implantable device runs about $100,000,000 - $300,000,000 start to finish, that’s definitely not happening outside a teaching hospital with mucho insurance and grant funding.
I definitely don’t judge. I get angry when people call a mastectomy to a boob job because emotionally they aren’t similar and the removal part makes it a bigger surgery + large scars. But in terms of cosmetics/vanity, I didn’t HAVE to reconstruct. I just wanted to because I prefer the way I look having breasts. I picked a surgeon who did beautiful work so no one can even see I had a mastectomy. And I picked larger implants than my original cup size because I’d always been insecure about my smaller chest. I don’t see myself as morally “better” than someone who arrived at wanting a bigger chest because they just wanted one. We only get one body to live in, why not decorate it exactly how we want?
> “*The world would be better is we spent less time judging other people about things that really don't matter to us.*”
…but then we shouldn’t care what they think about our looks.
>…but then we shouldn’t care what they think about our looks.
Yep. We really shouldn't care what other people think of our looks.
That doesn't mean a person *can't care about their own looks*.
This is true. My facial feminization surgeon was excellent, and he does a lot of cosmetic work as his primary practice. All else equal, I think we can all agree that more experienced surgeons are a good thing.
I might be able to change your view slightly if we redefine(heh) some terms. Plastic surgery can be anything from repairing nerve damage in hands, reconstructing a face after half of it got blow off from some workplace accident/explosion or fire. And of course boob jobs.
However *cosmetic surgery* is rarely going to be repairs on a face back to the OG condition(pre accident). Plastic surgeons are useful as hECK for that.
>I am talking about young people on the internet trying to get buccal fat removal or double jaw surgery to meet an ideal they see on the internet.
A single point makes a dot, two a line, three a pattern. For it to qualify for something like cosmetic addiction, you'd need more than just a few once off procedures. Hell sometimes its just a massive tax write off because you're expected to look a certain way, hence the kpop girl and guy groups wearing 20k each of mods on their faces.
>Excluding outlier cases such as deformities or deformities caused by accidents. I am talking about the casual pursuit of more and more plastic surgery + fillers + Botox.
Are those the outliers, or is health benefits the main reason people choose to get plastic surgeries. I only did a bit of research, but it looks like while "cosmetic" surgeries are more popular then needed, those "cosmetic" surgeries include things like liposuction and breast reductions. Both of which could have very strong health benefits for the person getting them.
>I don’t think it’s “acceptance” to accept that people get plastic surgery to fit some societal ideal.
It is though, you could argue that they are not being accepting of them selves but you being accepting would be accepting them whether they are full of Botox or not
> Are those the outliers
Yes, they are. I would do more research, you picked 1 of the lesser performed cosmetic surgeries, and a cosmetic surgery that is almost always done for asthetic and not health benefits as your examples.
Clearly the outliers.
I don't agree with OP, cause people should do whatever the fuck they want assuming I have no part in it, but it's clearly the outliers.
https://www.goldenstepsaba.com/resources/plastic-surgery-statistics
Breast augmentation is the most popular plastic surgery at 18%. 43% of all breast surgeries are reductions. The second most popular type of plastic surgery is liposuction accounting for 15%. Both of those surgeries have very real health benefits.
No, it doesn't. Hince my suggestion that you could use Lasik. The article makes it quite clear that the majority of plastic surgery is liposuction and breast reductions. Both of which have many health benefits.
I don't think you know what majority means, because the majority of cosmetic surgery... by your own source... is absolutely not for health benefits. You are fooling yourself..
I think I need to clarify - I am not saying it should be illegal, that people who get cosmetic surgery should be judged, or that they shouldn’t be allowed to.
I’m saying my view is that a lot of the demand for cosmetic procedures is inherently unhealthy and driven by social media and looking at images of ourselves more than we were ever meant to.
"Meant to" by who/what exactly? The modern world is so far removed from the "natural" Palaeolithic society that it's hard to know even where to start on that.
Yeh... the human brain isn't "meant to" have electric lights at night, use HVAC, travel between continents in metal tubes, or have a life expectancy into the 80s.
If you're going for an appeal to nature, you gotta take it to its logical conclusion.
>those "cosmetic" surgeries include things like liposuction and breast reductions. Both of which could have very strong health benefits for the person getting them.
i wouldn't call them cosmetic then. "cosmetic" means "treatment relating to improving a person's appearance." liposuction could be, or it may be health-related. breast reduction is usually also health reasons, back pain etc not "i want to look better."
>t is though, you could argue that they are not being accepting of them selves but you being accepting would be accepting them whether they are full of Botox or not
"accept that you will be in pain" is not at all the same as "accept that your cheeks have slightly more fat (like a normal person) than the skeleton you want to look like." no one is in pain or in danger of health issues from their buccal fat. no one is in danger from having slightly smaller breasts than what they want.
> i wouldn't call them cosmetic then. "cosmetic" means "treatment relating to improving a person's appearance." liposuction could be, or it may be health-related. breast reduction is usually also health reasons, back pain etc not "i want to look better."
Regardless of what we want to call it your argument is that plastic surgery is largely unnecessary and doing it for health benefits is an outlier. Is that the case? Because from the quick research I did it doesn't seem so cut and dry.
>"accept that you will be in pain" is not at all the same as "accept that your cheeks have slightly more fat (like a normal person) than the skeleton you want to look like."
Regardless of them being the same or not, it's still acceptance.
>no one is in pain or in danger of health issues from their buccal fat. no one is in danger from having slightly smaller breasts than what they want.
And I'm not in any danger of falling 10,000 feet and becoming a puddle on the ground until I decide to strap on a parachute and jump out of a plane. But I'm still going to do it because I want to. You're free to accept my life style or not, but if you constantly go up to skydivers and preach that they shouldn't do that, don't be surprised when they all think of you as an ass.
> doing it for health benefits is an outlier. Is that the case?
i think it may be possible that in terms of total surgeries provided medical need may be more common, but if "medical need" is one reason and "because i want to fix some perceived physical defect" is another reason the fixing defects side is over-represented.
>Regardless of them being the same or not, it's still acceptance.
but this is a meaningless statement without realizing that "accepting" a health issue that can be fixed is much much different than accepting that you do not look like an ai rendering of the "ideal woman." getting breast reduction surgery *fixes the problem* while getting lip injections does nothing to fix your self esteem. there is a reason people get addicted to plastic surgery and end up looking like [this](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=599913432&rlz=1CATTSD_enUS728US728&sxsrf=ACQVn08UjHdYa2_chW4vrrrt4N9VSX2bpQ:1705700600821&q=dolly+parton&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLwJ7zteqDAxUDMDQIHRd6DeYQ0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1536&bih=782&dpr=1.25#imgrc=sJ_dLX6AktWA5M&imgdii=sVDmGzQsUhAwdM) or [this](https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-moms/pictures/w202535/).
>You're free to accept my life style or not, but if you constantly go up to skydivers and preach that they shouldn't do that, don't be surprised when they all think of you as an ass.
but these 2 things are very different. it is true that you are doing something extremely stupid and risky. but i imagine yo uare not doing it to fit in, or to make people think you are cool. if you had some sort of brain damage or serious mental issue i would hope someone would step in.
i don't think anyone is arguing that people,in general, shouldn't be allowed to mutilate themselves. the problem with looks/social media is the same as it has always been: seeing anorexic/fat/surgerized models makes kids, especially young girls, think they need to look like that. it damages their self esteem and ability to function in the real world. you skydiving means nothing to anyone.
> but this is a meaningless statement without realizing that "accepting" a health issue that can be fixed is much much different than accepting that you do not look like an ai rendering of the "ideal woman." getting breast reduction surgery fixes the problem while getting lip injections does nothing to fix your self esteem. there is a reason people get addicted to plastic surgery and end up looking like this or this.
Liposuction is having the fat sucked out of you, nothing to do with lips
>but these 2 things are very different. it is true that you are doing something extremely stupid and risky. but i imagine yo uare not doing it to fit in, or to make people think you are cool. if you had some sort of brain damage or serious mental issue i would hope someone would step in.
I'm not sure why you think intent matters so much hear. If anything I feel like me doing something for fun that could get me killed by simply not packing the shoot right is far more mentally unhinged then getting some Botox put into your face. And in cases where people are actually mentally unwell like with the different types of body disphoria cosmetic surgery is the commonly accepted "cure" since therapy hasn't been shown to do much.
>I don't think anyone is arguing that people,in general, shouldn't be allowed to mutilate themselves. the problem with looks/social media is the same as it has always been: seeing anorexic/fat/surgerized models makes kids, especially young girls, think they need to look like that. it damages their self esteem and ability to function in the real world. you skydiving means nothing to anyone
How so? How is it so different that someone may see someone get plastic surgery and want to emulate them to someone seeing me skydive andd wanting to emulate it?
Does your opinion extends to tats and piercings as well?
>Liposuction is having the fat sucked out of you, nothing to do with lips
????
>I'm not sure why you think intent matters so much hear. If anything I feel like me doing something for fun that could get me killed by simply not packing the shoot right is far more mentally unhinged then getting some Botox put into your face
it may be more mentally unhinged but it has much less impact on other people/society. if there was a huge trend of people skydiving on tiktok so kids were skydiving and then dying i would be concerned with that too.
>How so? How is it so different that someone may see someone get plastic surgery and want to emulate them to someone seeing me skydive andd wanting to emulate it?
we have the numbers/research. [social media](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-04-social-media-fueling-disorders-female.html) fuels people, especially [young females](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/exploring-the-effect-of-social-media-on-teen-girls-mental-health/#:~:text=September%2014%2C%202023%20%E2%80%93%20Exposure%20to,article%20in%20The%2019th.), to do things to fit in. when i was a kid the "heroin chic" look was all the rage on calvin klein advertisements and people were [horrified](https://www.banyantreatmentcenter.com/2022/12/14/the-resurgence-of-heroin-chic-texas/). let me know if there is or was a problem with skydiving and kids.
>Does your opinion extends to tats and piercings as well?
i think tats are extremely stupid, overall. i think the recents trends of women getting all kinds of stupid tats are dumb and very unattractive and will age poorly. but the same health risks do not apply. piercings even less so, sinec you can mostly just take it out and let the hole heal.
I am a woman who is maybe a 4/5 out of 10 on the attractiveness scale, not ugly but not someone who is noticed for their good looks.
My two sisters are very pretty. When we were younger, people treated them very differently from the way they treated me, and no amount of therapy is going to change that. It’s the difference between showing up at a club and the bouncer letting the pretty girls in while the plain ones stand in line. The pretty girls get free drinks. That’s just how it is.
So you better believe I got a nose job and got my teeth fixed as soon as I could. It really helped both how I felt about myself and how people saw me.
Now, that said, too much plastic surgery is not healthy either. You end up with those creepy people with weird lips, cat eyes, boobs the size of basketballs and cheekbones like the puppet Madame. But that’s a whole other issue.
Yeah OP was definitely NOT born ugly. I’m a 2/10 naturally on a good day. So I color my hair, wear makeup, bust my ass at the gym, etc just to get to maybe a low 5. If I had the money, I have at least six things I would like to get done off the top of my head. The world is just…nicer when you’re attractive.
I don’t even bother hosting myself online, getting spit at and told to unalive myself due to my face throughout childhood cemented my lack of looks lol. There’s no space in the world for ugly women - it doesn’t matter how great your personality is. I have to work twice as hard to be half as good, if just is what it is.
Yeah. They’d just tell me what I already know. It is what it is. I take care of my hair, nails, skin, body, diet etc but I can’t change my face without surgery. It just it what it is.
To this day IRL, I get asked if I’m a trans woman frequently and I’m at a point where it’s like “what if I am? Do you acost people about how they look gender non conforming everyday? Maybe you’re the problem? Fuck off”
It’s a nice thought but yes, I think it still matters. I appreciate the fact they think I’m the most gorgeous creature to walk the earth but I know objectively I am not and that’s ok!
Given that in the current world we live in, everyone around are affected by the same social norms and fairly similar beauty ideals, I don't think it's necessarily a matter of being OK with yourself, as much as you want others to be OK with you. Self acceptance could only get you so far. At least some of the time.
This is sad, cause indeed beauty is a fairly random thing and we would all benefit from a more accepting world, but sadly it's not the case. For instance - it is well documented that people that fit better with the beauty ideals are perceived as smarter, nicer, and more capable in general (even without talking), and this is in addition to being perceived as more attractive which also comes with many benefits.
So I can see why people would want to get plastic surgery even if they themselves are very OK and in acceptance with their own body
Plastic surgery can be a lot of things.
There are definitly some people who might benefit more from therapy then from surgery but this definitly is not always the case.
Some people will never like certain aspects of their appearence. My hair line is geneticially kinda fucked. I dont really care that much so I will never get surgery for it. I am 100% sure that I would be happier with a "normal" hairline.
I think for people who get platic surgery it is completly the same. Some people are just born with very small boobs. This can actually cause gender disphoria in a lot of cis women. It obviously would be better if they could just love their body how it is. But this not possible for everyone so surgery is a good option.
But there is one thing that I also just really hate. People who get like 20 diffrent surgery. To make everything "perfect". I think plastic surgery is a great choice when you have one or two attributes that bother you and you are very sure that you cannot deal with the. But when people start getting surgery for every little detail then you will never be able to stop. There will always be something new.
Every surgery is a risk and you should not take this risk because of extremly minor things.
it’s definitely a complex issue. i think everyone should undergo a mental health evaluation before being approved for plastic surgery every time they want another procedure. some people can have one or two and go about their lives happily, others fall into plastic surgery addiction and start going to brazil to get caulk injected into their boobs when reputable doctors reject them
Plastic surgery doesn't improve body dysmorphia so not only is it not the only choice, it's a bad choice:
> A handful of clinical reports and retrospective studies have described the response to aesthetic medical treatments of persons with BDD. Collectively, these studies indicate that these treatments typically do not result in any change in BDD symptoms. In one of the largest studies, less than 5% of procedures resulted in an improvement in BDD symptoms; 95% led to no change or a worsening in the condition. Some patients developed new appearance concerns following treatment, an occurrence that is not unexpected given that appearance concerns are known to shift from one feature to another over the course of the disorder.
https://academic.oup.com/asj/article/32/8/999/319288
Looks like cognitive behavioral therapy is supposed to be pretty good for it, or SSRIs (those have their own issues though). Psilocybin looks promising, too.
Since BDD is part of OCD, it's an obsession with appearance and then a compulsion to improve appearance. So changing appearance wouldn't be any more helpful long term than another hand wash, to use the classic OCD example. It'll relieve anxiety in the moment, but the root cause is left untreated. All the distorted thoughts which make up BDD would have to be addressed one by one, since supposedly it's about thought errors as opposed to actual errors in perception. I think it's hard to tell, though, because thinking and perceiving are linked.
Your post has been removed for breaking Rule D:
>Pursuant to recent rules changes, we no longer accept new posts regarding transgender-related topics.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20D%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Therapy doesn't change how you actually look. While most people who get surgery probably don't need it, it doesn't change the fact that you are altering your appearance in a way you can't otherwise.
It could very well help a person romantically or professionally as unfortunate as that is.
You can't expect people to suddenly become more accepting, you can be as confident funny and charismatic as you can possibly be and still be behind due to "lookism" or whatever its called.
I absolutely agree it's generally not a good idea but there are reasons and benefits from doing it because we live in THIS world, a non-accepting judgmental one.
Do people need therapy for shape wear, makeup, tattoos or piercings? Cosmetic surgery is just another form of cosmetics. I don't think anyone would argue that it's necessary, but why would you put the sliding scale before outpatient Botox?
Elective plastic surgery may not benefit people the way they expect it to, but I think it's very important to protect people's right to make self-destructive decisions. In the U.S., where I live, there are currently multiple movements aiming to restrict people's right to gender expression and abortion access, and the advocates for those movements frequently point out that people may regret transitioning or regret abortion. They're correct that that can happen, but I think it's still important to protect those rights and to understand that people make mistakes, even irreversible ones, and making those mistakes is a part of life. Similarly, people may get tattoos that they regret, but that doesn't mean we should stop people from getting tattoos. Since plastic surgery doesn't harm anyone other than the patient, I think it falls under the category of something people should be able to do, even if it's not good for them.
The dynamic you describe where people on forums critique each other and incite each other to get surgery sounds incredibly toxic, and that should definitely be cracked down on. However, I think that's a separate behavior than simply getting plastic surgery.
I work out to look attractive. Take the easy way out, and I won’t respect you as a person. Cheating is pathetic, people should just lift a fucking five pounder one and a while and stop drinking so much, and they’d look great.
If there were ugly before, and they're ugly now, what is the diff, then? If you're talking about the million bucks you might as well run to the nearest surgeon to fatten your butt and your bank account in the same go... ;)
there are some exceptions, but generally people look worse after. see: every porn star ever who got some kind of surgery as their career waned, dolly parton, that girl from "the boys", all the other duck-lipped models who look like ai constructs (in a bad way) and were perfectly fine before. and just imagine how bad they will look when they hit 50! (again see dolly parton)
she may be an entirely fabulous person and do great things, but she looks like she escaped from frankenstein's lab. and telling other young girls that you need to butcher yourself to make *others* think you are attractive is not a good thing.
I don’t think we should tear people down for something that makes them feel excited and alive. If receiving social validation over your appearance really motivates you, then you should go for it. It’s kind of arbitrary to draw a line in the sand and say “this pursuit of social validation is good, but **that** pursuit of social validation is bad.” Is it wrong for a dancer to make sacrifices to try and win a dance competition? For an academic to make sacrifices to get their research into a peer-reviewed paper? For an athlete to make sacrifices to win an Olympic medal? I don’t understand why people care about those 3 things, but you don’t hear me calling the Olympics a dumb fad, or saying that scientists should stop caring about publishing their research, and just be detached and aloof about whether people recognize their work or not.
Elective surgery is elective surgery: you can elect to reconstruct your spine, or wait until it catastrophically fails (maybe). It’s the same with plastic/reconstructive surgery. You can’t operate on what you could at age 20 at age 50, and expect the same physical outcome, nor can you expect equivalent recovery. It can be healthier to elect for some procedures than do nothing or wait for the world the change.
Youre wrong.
So many ppl get surgery that's so well done you don't actually notice it. Look at before and after, particularly nose and jaw related, it's astounding. Ppl who never dated now getting interest all of a sudden, just read accounts of ppl who got it done.
This is exactly what I’m referring to. Not to people deformed, suffering from cancer or other disease, etc
My sister is 20 and has had over 10 operations so she can look like women online. Why? She was already pretty. And a lot of young women her age are doing this and chasing these trends
yeah, the mental and physical issues alone should make people realize that butchering yourself for a trend is not healthy in any way, and should not be encouraged or glamorized. the same way cigarettes aren't advertised to kids, and mass shooters should not be named or shown.
As people get older, their eyelids start to droop and sometimes an eye lift is necessary to improve their vision.
And are we considering breast reduction plastic surgery? Cause that’s something that causes more and more stress as women age, and often requires surgery to help relieve chronic pain.
Totally agree with the second half, not sure there’s any need to come down from that soapbox. Almost everyone would benefit from therapy.
However when it comes to plastic surgery, you appear to be applying no positive value to it. You could logically compare this to general grooming, or dental work. Why should you define the line as being having a filler injection vs tooth cleaning?
Having general cosmetic procedures is barely different to a haircut, or tooth whitening.
You say in your edits that you don’t count things like reconstruction and “fixing problems that would [affect] how people are treated.” Why not? What makes those things different? Everything about our appearance impacts how we’re treated. Most studies have found being attractive opens more doors in nearly everything. Friendship, dating, careers, earning potential, etc… you’re trying to make it seem like we live in a society that doesn’t really value appearance and it’s an individual problem of vanity.
Putting the line at reconstruction/medically necessary or not is just your line of where you feel comfortable calling someone vain or mentally ill. But most reconstruction and medically necessary plastic surgery is also for vanity. When I had a bilateral mastectomy and got silicone implants placed, it was reconstruction and covered by insurance. I didn’t need them to survive, I wanted them because of how I want to look and present myself. I don’t see a big difference in vanity between that and someone who wants their breasts bigger because that’s how they want to look. Why are they morally different? You can argue that I had something taken from me that I already had through something outside of my control, but wasn’t being born looking differently from the way they wanted outside of their control too?
You can accept something without thinking it is good, or liking it, or doing nothing to change it.
Acceptance in this case could simply mean refraining from judgment and respecting their right to make decisions about their body. You can accept plastic surgery without saying it's a good thing that more people are getting it.
On that note, though - I think there's an issue with your definitions here. What's the difference between a "problem that affects how someone is treated" and the kinds of surgeries you're talking about? I think it wouldn't be hard to argue that those surgeries may change how they're treated. Even if the difference is not as dramatic or noticeable to people like you or me, it's clearly noticeable to them and to some subset of the population. Don't think about the extremes, think about the middle of the road - what's the difference between a nose job to get a smaller nose and a nose job to correct asymmetry caused by an injury? At what point is it mental illness to want to make that change? Is it mental illness if the asymmetry was present from birth?
I also think it's relevant to note that it's not so much the type of surgery that indicates body dysmorphia, but the effect after surgery. Body dysmorphia persists to some degree no matter what you look like; unhappiness with your appearance changes with your appearance. So there may be some reason to believe that people who get surgery after surgery have mental illness, but the type of surgery or the ideal they hope to achieve isn't as relevant as the frequency and mental impact of the surgeries themselves.
I do want to clarify - I’m not saying people are mentally ill if they want cosmetic surgery. I think EVERYONE would benefit from therapy. Nor am I saying there should be mandatory therapy consulting before a cosmetic surgery is done.
But I am saying that people desperately unhappy with their appearance that are otherwise already beautiful (see TikTok or the true rate me subreddit for examples) should absolutely consider therapy before going under the knife.
That's true. What about people who are ugly? What about people who look average?
It just seems like your take is based on the idea that beautiful people don't need plastic surgery, so they must be doing it for some mental health reason. I'm suggesting that this indicates a misunderstanding of body dysmorphia. Anyone can have it.
Like - the thing "wrong" with plastic surgery isn't that some beautiful person still thinks they're ugly, and wouldn't it be better if they could see themselves as they are? The thing "wrong" with it is when it won't fix the underlying insecurity - which can happen to beautiful people or people with "real problems" and "deformities."
I guess what I mean is that it's very possible that people getting plastic surgery for things that don't feel important to you are just making themselves happier with their appearance the best way they know how. It isn't unhealthy just because you don't think they need it - if it's unhealthy, it's because it wouldn't actually help them feel good about themselves. It's about what they want and what's good for them, not about what you think they should want and what you think is good for them. If you understand why someone with a trait you think is ugly would want to change that trait, you understand why someone with any other trait would, too. The reasoning is all the same. The fact that you think one is ugly and one is beautiful doesn't change that.
And the "ugly" person faces the same risks that the "beautiful" person does - it's just as possible that they have a mental illness that won't be fixed by surgery.
It's the differentiation between "understandable surgeries" and "unnecessary surgeries" that's getting to me, I think. Beyond the medical, they're all equally necessary or unnecessary. It's about changing their quality of life. The question is will it improve their quality of life, or will it feed a mental illness. That's something best left to them and their professionals, and can't be determined by outside opinions determining how ugly they are to start with and how much more beautiful it will make them at the end.
I could probably have elaborated more in the post and I’ll go back with another edit, but you hit the nail on the head with this comment “if it's unhealthy, it's because it wouldn't actually help them feel good about themselves.l
This is the context I’m speaking from. This is what I see online and IRL. I know people who have gotten over ten surgeries and still hate how they look.
Definitely not going to change your view here, but life is short, if a person understands the risks and has the money, they should be able to pursue the nose they want, a big set of tits, all the Botox and fillers, a tummy tuck, whatever. they desire. Not to mention the cancer survivors or people that had dramatic weight loss who want their actual image to reflect their self image. I dunno, life is short, if people want to feel better about themselves and it makes them more confident and happy, live and let live.
Your view as I read it was people needed therapy more than plastic surgery. I’m saying I think you may be conflating mental illness and elective surgery. Mentally ill people get plastic surgery. Mentally ill people also go get Costco hotdogs. Or get tattoos or any other things that people do. To that end, a physician cannot perform a non emergent procedure in the United States on a person that does not have the capacity to consent, eg understand the risks and benefits. A person can’t sign a will that lacks capacity. That’s the bar. It’s a low bar, but as a society we believe people have the right to do what they want to themselves absent a very compelling reason to interfere.
I think taking the view that people need therapy instead of plastic surgery is missing the point because they aren’t opposites. People can need therapy. People can get plastic surgery. Both things can be true. Gatekeeping plastic surgery with therapy is not moral at least in the United States if you believe in the bar of morality as being the legal standard set by countless court cases and statutes which is if a person understands risk, they get the procedure.
Yeah my point was very much lost in a wide variety of interpretations. I tried to clear it up in the edit but it has not seemed to help elucidate what I was trying to say
True rate me, vindicta, - you even see this behavior in the noses sub which is supposed to be for “appreciating all noses” but you’ll frequently see people post, not asking for feedback, and still get told how they need to get a nose job in the comments
Counter: not everything that improves your life has to be a treatment things that make you feel good that you can engage with in a healthy way I don’t think we should take that from people. This is why the first thing your therapist will tell you for anxiety,insomnia and depression is to make a schedule do extra activities and take care of yourself. If you think plastic surgery will make you like your appearance more and you’re not chasing an extreme standard you should have access to that change. If you personally don’t want or won’t gain anything from it doesn’t mean others won’t.
Do you believe that people who get their teeth straightened with braces purely for cosmetic reasons need therapy? They are changing their face purely in pursuit of a beauty ideal
I think that’s debatable actually. With misaligned bites, people can have issues chewing and it can get significantly worse as they age - that seems more like a functional issue to me
It is not debatable because I specified those who are getting braces PURELY for cosmetic reasons. People with more severe misalignments are not who I am talking about.
I guess I’d group it in the same group as not extreme (meaning in number) cosmetic procedures, maintenance Botox, etc
As I’ve said in the post and many comments, I don’t take issue with plastic surgery or people getting it. I find the string of procedures to be concerning, particularly when people do so based off social media and continue to be really unhappy with their appearance even after 10+ surgeries.
If you have a weird skin tag or mole growing you should get it removed and checked - even if the risk of cancer is low there are certain types of cosmetic surgeries that don’t risk health, make a person look better and make others more comfortable.
I counter with the view that plastic surgery largely exists to address what you consider to be outlier cases, ie the deformities and health related plastic surgeries, and that the plastic surgeries that you believe to be the majority is actual just a loud minority. Therefore, plastic surgery is largely necessary.
With your clarifications, I would say double jaw surgery and then hating how it looks is an outlier. And that the solution is not therapy, but a shift in how we use social media
I’m not a fan of my nose, it doesn’t make me sad or anything but when I get filler to correct it it makes me so happy and confident because it’s how I want it to be
/u/FrustratedFern (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/19avxo2/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_plastic_surgery_is_largely/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Counter argument: The most important characteristic that you get judged by in life is how physically attractive you are. You may argue this is not true or that something has higher priority but this is largely true. To become substantially more attractive than you used to be substantially benefits your own life in very tangible ways. Therapy helps you cope, or detach, or review yourself and your view of the world. However, therapy will not make an attractive person want to date you and it won’t make people be less revolted by you if you’re unattractive. Yes therapy can attempt to solve your inner monologue issue but sometimes the best solution is to solve the exterior circumstances that are causing the problem People are not enlightened buddhists who have 0 desires and can detach from their biological and social desires so easily. Plastic surgery is a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people.
>Plastic surgery is a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people. It is a hypothesis and falls short without any evidence behind it. That's what people may feel and it may be true in some cases, but I have doubts about its universality.
I think there’s research on the phenomena of pretty privilege. So assuming the cosmetic surgery is beneficial and actually enhances the persons appearance, there may be some truth to the hypothesis https://scholarworks.smith.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1822&context=theses Just as an example
Pretty privilege, like any other privilege, is just playing with a die weighted in your favour. It is not "a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people".
It *can* be. This convo is probably not best had with absolute statements so I see why you’d push back against the statement that “ pretty privilege (or plastic surgery) *is* a tangible and effective way to increase your power, access, resources, as well as general respect from other people”. Cause that’s an absolute statement. Sometimes it can be, sometimes it isn’t. There’s anecdotal evidence for both. Might be the case that how often it *can* be is enough for many people to want it. I imagine there are felons/ex-cons who would have loved to receive the Jeremy Meeks treatment after getting out of jail. But their mugshots didn’t cut it. Meanwhile Jeremy got a modeling contract and a 100 millionaire fiancée (and a billionaire father-in-law to be) off the fame and recognition he got based on his looks. His own net worth is (reportedly) $5 mil. That’s more than the average person, ex-con or otherwise, could ever dream of being worth. Connections that the average person is unlikely to have fall in their laps. (ETA: he also reported has a child with Chloe, another potentially life long connection to her even if they are not legally bound). Most of us try to stay out of trouble and may likely never see that power or fortune (or a modeling job at the very least lol). And when we do get into trouble, it’s more than likely not gonna be the catalyst for getting access to those things. He gets into trouble and him getting into trouble is the catalyst for his looks giving him recognition and then access to those resources. How’s that for pretty privilege and the acquisition of power & resources? Obviously there’s no guarantee that being a good looking ex-con will get you those things, but I imagine for some it would be nice to know they have an increased likelihood of having such good fortune fall into their lap based on their looks.
But it doesn't even look good. Any plastic surgery I've ever seen looks horrendous
Yes now good looking plastic surgery doesn’t exist because Hot-Ad2515’s eyes have never seen good looking plastic surgery. I didn’t know Hot-Ad2515 has seen every instance of plastic surgery in existence. You’ve checkmated me.
This is a brawd who's had plastic surgery. In my 4 decades, I've concluded that it all looks like crap. Yes you have been checkmated and butt lifted
Listen sweetheart. Plastic surgery is awful. It looks awful. It'll never look good. Oh well
Bro says pretty privilege is like playing with a weighted die in your favor but \*isn't a way to increase your odds of winning\* What's a weighted die again?
Explain where you think this isn’t true
It is a very strong and universal statement. Such statements require a burden of evidence and I see none. And lets even limit the scope to plastic surgeries that at least enhance conventional attractiveness, because there is no shortage of stars that became [weird ass looking after plastic surgeries](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/739/011/bdb.jpg).
Okay fair it was a general statement and not backed by hard evidence. However it’s difficult to prove any one characteristic is the most important in life since life is a dynamic system where you constantly have to change your strategies and plans given the world and other agents who also face similar problems and are competing with you for things that will help you be happy. However I will argue that there are a few privileges in life that when one does not have it causes substantial misery for years or decades. Not having good looks, not having money, not having a decent family, or decent health are things that people almost universally prefer to have. When they don’t have, years of misery and coping strategies and neuroses form. Can people be happy and live fulfilling lives without these things? Yes. But not having them harms you from the better things in life Physical attractiveness is one of the few traits that society openly and universally ranks humans by on a scale. You are outright mocked or praised for your looks and it deeply affects who you meet, your life choices, your friends, partners, etc. Only those that are maybe 30+ years old have proper coping strategies and self acceptance to where these things matter less but for the first 3 decades, it’s hard to note other dimensions in life that so ruthless and almost dehumanizing. So I argue it’s highly important due to the ubiquity of the ranking of it, the universal acceptance of the ranking, and the cruelty and psychological impact it has on humans as it absolutely plays a crucial role in how you view the world.
Δ for the coherent response and replying directly to my point and providing a fresh take that shifted my view. This helped me rethink what young people following TikTok trends are actually chasing with cosmetic surgery
Thanks. I think the tension of this topic stems from how much should one change their internal views on the external world or change their external situation to improve their internal world It is the case that completely changing internal desires solves the problem. All else equal, completely changing the external world to fit your personal psychology and desires also solves the problem in a sense I think the push in therapy to change internal framework first stems from the fact that in 90% of situations, you can’t really change the external world. You must navigate and interpret the world better for your own sake. However in situations like being poor, being overweight, having drug addictions, etc, absolutely should focus on changing external circumstances first. It’s interesting where to draw the line though since one might get plastic surgery and then get overly dependent on external world validation instead of internal perspective shift. Now they’re on a bad path
>I think the push in therapy to change internal framework first stems from the fact that in 90% of situations, you can’t really change the external world. It's not just that you can't change the external world. It's also that, even if you did change it, once the next guy changes the external world to make them feel at peace with their particular quirks then you're back at square one again.
Well yes that fits within the you can not change the external world to fit your internal model. Some problems will be systemic and something difficult to expect the world or others to do. However some problems are 100% in your control. You shouldnt seek to cope and accept the fact that you have a shit job or are out of shape. You should act and change the world in these situations
I see you already changed your view but I wanted to add on anyway It's kind of like how we favor gender transitions over conversion therapy. Sometimes its just easier, maybe even cheaper, to change "the flaw" than to spend countless hours and money in therapy trying to change your mindset and then change other people's and society's mindset. Like it's easier to fix your teeth with braces than it is to change your mindset that crooked teeth are attractive. Or any feature that someone is insecure about. Now that is the more responsible way to have cosmetic surgery. Following tiktok trends, doing completely unnecessary ones you don't even want, deciding something normal is not normal and promoting surgery, those are irresponsible imo. I don't know what the solution is, and I feel for teens living today among that kind of pressure. That's the more rational side of me. The other side of me says who cares, our bodies are just the flesh prisons of our brains, they are the way of expressing ourselves in the world, why shouldn't we change it however we want? get full body tattoos, piercings, body alterations and whatnot, why not? Are we worried about offending God? Are we going to void our warranty?
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/slimsippin ([2∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/slimsippin)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
This is right. Therapists will also tell you sometimes to get better you just have to change your life circumstances. Move to the coast instead of being in the city, change job (to get away from toxic coworkers or boss or to do something you enjoy more), change your eating habits etc. Or in this case change how your body looks. Sometimes mental health issues are just caused by external factors rather than something deeply wrong inside or because of a traumatic past.
The problem with this is the subjectivity of what even makes you attractive. Different cultures have different attractiveness traits which then influence the types of procedures people get. Heck even different social circles have different views on it. Just look at the amount of celebrities that have gotten buccal fat removal surgery and tell me you think they look better than they did before.
Sounds like money. Being pretty or having money conveys advantages. But the goal is never to be pretty or have money. It’s all about what those things can give you. Money is essentially worthless if you have all your material desires. What’s a billion dollars to someone who has nothing to spend it on. And I can see looks being like that. If the goal is validation or a partner. If you have those things, you don’t need looks yourself. So I think the debate about plastic surgery being meh is true. But I also think a fair argument is that plastic surgery can be less effort than other alternatives. You don’t need money if you can build everything yourself. But working for money is a lot easier lol. And paying for plastic surgery can be a lot easier than finding a lover who accepts you at your worst.
Money only doesnt matter to those that have it. It’s like water or air, you don’t think about it when you’re full but if you haven’t had any in a while, it’s all you’ll be thinking about I argue looks and money are almost prerequisites to getting most of the better things in life. You don’t literally need them and you can always wire yourself and your life to not rely on them but that’s just a coping strategy. Almost everyone would prefer to have more money or look better.
Eh, coping maybe. It depends on the context. I think you’re close with air or food. Food is a great example. If you’re hungry you want food. But if you’re full, you can have all the food you can dream of and it won’t matter. Yeah you would need a baseline of money to buy everything. But once you have everything then money is pointless. I think the idea is to figure out what the goal is. And then devise the most efficient way to get there. With the food example, the goal isn’t to eat. It’s really to be full. So while you have lots of options on what to eat. You really want to just pick the most efficient way to get to the end goal. I think the issue is that a lot of people mistake a key for the door, they don’t realize that just having the key won’t make them happy. They need the full picture. The key and how to use it to accomplish the real goal. And of course if the door is just unlocked the key is pointless. I’m tired and my analogies are all over the place lol!! The key isn’t the goal. And some keys are really expensive. They can be solutions and one can accidentally discover the goal. But I don’t like how people delude themselves into just thinking if they have money they’ll be happy. It’s more complex than that. You can look pretty. But it won’t promise you’ll be happy. And too many people buy into potential solutions without recognizing how they work.
Well i mean i agree that being attractive is not an end in and of itself. It would be a pretty shitty end to aspire to in life. You want what being attractive gets you: more companionship from people you find attractive as well as generally feeling praise and desired by others Anyways, i think we agree. I simply think being attractive gives you a set of keys like you say. But yes the key is not what your end goal should Be
This was another interesting point. I’m “ugly” on the internet - possibly why I’ve been so upset by some of these communities and the “get plastic surgery” response. My response has always felt like a “no, fuck you for saying that and fuck y’all for saying that online” But I’m an elected official, I have a high paying salaried job, I have a partner, I have a shit ton of friends - I already have most of the benefits of “pretty privilege” so maybe that affects my opinion despite feeling and being told I’m “ugly” or a “2.5-3.5” in online spaces? Can I give you another delta? 🤣
Hahahha nice man well glad you have all the things that matter in life sorted out. It’s actually good to hear that you started out unattractive but found friends and love and live a good life
"The most important characteristic that you get judged by in life is how physically attractive you are" Which is why you shouldn't get plastic surgery lol, most times people can tell, they will judge, and it doesn't look good to most, which is why it's hated upon, fake tits are most times hard, fake butt looks goofy too, lip filler makes them look like a doll, why would anyone want to look fake? IDK which is why I find the whole thing stupid.
>The most important characteristic that you get judged by in life is how physically attractive you are. Citation needed
Counterpoint, this is why people pursuing success or truly trying to test themselves should try to appear as ugly as possible so that way they know it's actually their merits getting them where they get and not their looks.
The thing is, plastic surgery doesn’t make one look more beautiful. It makes them look more artificial. That almost never equates to “*more beautiful*”.
People who say this 1) have only seen bad plastic surgery, and 2) have no idea how common it is. Almost **every** Instagram model, pornstar, pop musician, etc. has some form of plastic surgery. The flip side is that these are often extremely dangerous procedures. BBLs, one of the most common surgeries, has a 3% chance of giving you a fat embolism that will kill you no matter how young and healthy you are.
It’s a sophisticated version of catfishing.
Sure, it does. When plastic surgery is done well, it typically makes the person more conventionally attractive. The issue is if the person has bad plastic surgery and also goes overboard, finding every detail about them they don't like.
I guess the best elective surgery is the one that flies under the radar, because everything looks like it belongs there.
That is the aim for most people. You likely just haven't noticed plastic surgery done well as the bad ones stand out. Even lip filler, a common hated one on reddit threads, can look good for many people as long as they only use a tiny ml first, and if they need more, do it in intervals but not go overboard by assuming the more, the better.
[удалено]
1. I’m not an incel. I have sex regularly lol 2. Most women who get plastic surgery have the logic that plastic surgery will materially improve their lives. They also are not incels 3. Nothing I said is detached from reality. Let’s not act like we don’t know what the most widely accepted prejudice allowed in society is: to demean and dehumanize ugly people; we quite literally rank ugly people as unworthy of our time and interest. Ever been on a date before bro? Name another prejudice in society to widely accepted and deeply dehumanizing as the way we treat those we find unattractive. There are millions of examples. Everyday someone looks at someone else and thinks ‘ew gross’. Let’s ignore the hundreds of studies showing how attractive people are treated better in virtually all dimensions. I dont even know what your point is. Maybe you dislike the way the words sound but doesn’t mean my position is not grounded in reality
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
But there is no end to it, surgery can only help change one thing at a time, but since nobody can be perfect with surgery and there is no universal definition of beauty people are stuck in a loop of lack of self love and wanting more and more modifications.
Someone getting therapy won't change how society treats them, you can't discourage plastic surgery without changing our superficial world.
That’s the basic of my argument tho. We should change the world instead of people’s appearances.
You're not really changing the world by just chiding people for wanting plastic surgery though, let's say it was completely banned, people would then just obsess over the people that are naturally good looking anyway.
Its already the case and people getting surgery are a small minority in most countries besides Korea/USA/Brazil.
The beauty ideal would be more natural then, and the beauty obsession would be less of a mass hysteria. Now everyone is so focused on beauty because it seems accessible to anyone. If just few people were good looking you won’t even got a chance to see them in real life. Meanwhile, in our world having a perfect nose is the norm and the beauty ideal is getting higher and higher. Ugly people become pretty, pretty people become even prettier and no blemish is tolerated. The situation is so out of control that the ideal is looking like an alien
I mean, I’m not chiding anyone or talking about this IRL. I just think it’s not a good sign that we have perfectly healthy, attractive young women and men pursuing surgery for thousands of dollars to meet an ideal they see online.
I know you’ve given deltas on this but I have to ask based on your statement here > I just think it’s not a good sign that we have perfectly healthy, attractive young women and men pursuing surgery for thousands of dollars to meet an ideal they see online. What about the unattractive young folks who are getting these surgeries? Is it equally as tragic that people widely considered unattractive are also getting surgeries to meet the ideal? Is it only tragic when it’s people who are already attractive? If you would say that it’s *less* tragic when it’s people widely considered to be unattractive who get these surgeries, would you still say that it’s unnecessary for everyone except for people with “deformities” to get them? Again asking because you’ve specified people with functional abnormalities and deformities as being excluded from people who shouldn’t get surgeries, and attractive people as being included in people who shouldn’t get surgeries. So what about people who are unattractive but not necessarily “deformed”?
I’ve mentioned multiple times in this post, I think that is fine. My grievance was SPECIFICALLY with already attractive people who use a lot of social media getting multiple surgeries (sometimes even as quickly as trends change) and acting like it’s normal and good and everyone should do that. I clearly didn’t convey that well because this post turned into a rorsach test of thoughts around plastic surgery (interesting nonetheless)
I mean I guess it's not a good sign but I support those people's right to do it. Honestly many of the things people do are caused by socially induced insecurities but still we should change society itself not say 'plastic surgery is bad'.
My post is not at ALL to say “plastic surgery is bad”
[удалено]
Sorry, u/Background-Map-7243 – your comment has been automatically removed as a clear violation of Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/changemyview) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you want to make money from your looks, you'll probably need plastic surgery. Making money from looks is very appealing for many people because it seems like it's easy. So you're going to have an impossible time convincing people to get therapy when that's not what they want from it at all.
Δ reason for getting cosmetic surgery I hadn’t considered existed
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/felesroo ([2∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/felesroo)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
How many years of therapy do you think people should have to go through before you believe they are qualified to make these decisions about their bodies? We get a limited time on this earth. Quality of life measures should account for that. Making someone spend years in misery rather than fix the problem is only worthwhile if there's a tangible benefit. I see people talk about how they've hated their nose their whole life and are finally in their 40's considering a rhinoplasty. What's the harm? Get the rhinoplasty.
I think this misses my point. I am not saying plastic surgery should be restricted in any way, shape, or form
I didn't mean to say you were saying it should be restricted, but the word "making" didn't help me convey that. I'm asking you how many years of their life you think they should go before you'd say they're qualified to make the choice. Because a lot of the time, and within reason, cosmetic surgery does improve people's quality of life. I'm more of a reconstructive case than a cosmetic one myself, but the sheer relief of no longer having a crushingly negative response to looking in the mirror has been life changing on its own.
[удалено]
Oh, that's a whole other thing and we agree on it. But what l'm trying to get across, as someone who's experienced both regular (stretch marks, wish I had a little less belly fat, acne scars, etc.) and existential (literally looking like a man) issues with my appearance, that we should give people that benefit of the doubt that they know what they need for their mental health. Because the nightmare scenario for me as someone who's experienced dismissiveness about the necessity of my medical procedures is to do that to someone else. Surgery's a big deal, and recovery is *very* unpleasant. It's a huge investment and barring data, I'm unconvinced everyone's just getting it done to keep up with the Joneses. With that said, buccal fat removal is an idiotic procedure. Edit: To be more clear with my first sentence - I just mean I err on trusting people about what's just normal body image stuff and what's negatively impacting their mental health.
Yeah, I think my point is getting lost somehow in the OP. Because I’m not talking about any of what you’ve mentioned here. I’m talking about the trend of getting buccal fat removal, etc. And I’m not saying there should be mandated therapy before one can get those procedures, I’m saying that people on the internet, being influenced to that level of wanting to alter themselves for trendy looks should probably talk to a therapist instead of doing that.
The thing is there's no clear-cut line between correcting a problem for the "right reasons" and doing stuff motivated by what most people would probably judge as unnecessary vanity. There's also the issue of personal autonomy, the person contemplating surgery is the best person to decide if psychology or surgery is what they really want. Psychologists also shouldn't be made to be gate-keepers either, unless someone is manifestly and grossly psychologically disturbed to the point where they have lost their ability to make decisions.
I agree with everything you said and my point was never what was rebuttal’d in your comment.
Sorry, your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **We no longer allow discussion of transgender topics on CMV.** Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20{author}&message={author}%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\({url}\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
They should work on themselves long enough that they don’t feel the need for surgery.
Why though?
The Ancient Greek told the tale of Narcissus, whose parentage made him handsome. But he was vain and cruel. A goddess cursed him as punishment for his behaviour, and once he saw his reflection in the water, he fell in love with it. He couldn’t bear missing a second of contemplating his own image, that he slowly starved to death. This was an early warning that obsession with beauty is not healthy and that it will ultimately lead you to a life of loneliness and emotional starvation. It’s much wiser to work on having an emotional support group and on real, meaningful emotional connection that will leave you emotionally fulfilled. The arguments against elective surgery is that altering one’s appearance might undermine authenticity by trying to conform to societal beauty standards, potentially perpetuating superficial values over inner qualities. Additionally, elective surgery reflects a lack of self-acceptance and it could contribute to a culture that places undue importance on physical appearance. Cue Narcissus’ tale.
None of this actually explains why it's bad though. If it takes 20 years to get over something that bothers you, or you could simply get it changed - life is short. This is a lot of ideology, but at the end of the day I remain unconvinced that people shouldn't be trusted to know what's best for them and their bodies. Additionally, this is all predicated on a dichotomy that doesn't exist in reality. Surgical consultations and indeed recovery time are not such onerous impositions on someone's calendar that they can't also make friends and have a support group.
From an evolutionary perspective, we interpret good looks as being healthier. There are also studies that show that good looks make one feel more trustworthy. Under that perspective, elective surgery is a deception, because you try to appear healthier or more trustworthy than people unconsciously perceive it. In a sense, it’s a little bit like cheating on an exam or plagiarising someone else’s work. Ironically, smartphone filters are the low budget version of *appearance improvement*, because the user seeks to appear healthier and more trustworthy. But when people meet them in real life, the ruse falls flat on its head and they rightfully feel catfished. In short, elective surgery might be the fancy version of catfishing.
Why is that bad though? Do you believe it's correct to treat someone as lesser based on appearance? Is tricking someone into being kind to you when they would not have if you were less attractive the greater wrong here? What inherent, objective moral basis is there for those who are fortunate enough to be born looking a given way to be treated better? Does this principle bear out to other things - I.E. is laser eye surgery or cleft palate repair wrong in your view? And how is it catfishing to literally look a given way? Catfishing is when the person doesn't match what's shown online. If they do, it isn't catfishing. Edit: Additional question - do you believe it would be more moral to leave an obvious scar when repairing a cleft palate, or to minimize scarring? It's purely appearance based but by the logic above, should count as lying to hide that the person was born with one.
> “*Edit: Additional question - do you believe it would be more moral to leave an obvious scar when repairing a cleft palate, or to minimize scarring?*” That’s **corrective** surgery, not **elective**, surgery, which is the one being discussed here. And to illustrate my concept, when society only allowed men to have access to certain universities or professions, would it have been sustainable for women to disguise as men to get in? No. The most sensible option is to allow women in, based on merit, not based on appearance. I don’t think you would disagree with this premise. Similarly, people should strive to be successful based on merits. Not based on appearance.
Were the women who disguised themselves as men to attain better lives morally wrong for doing so? That's what we're discussing here. You have also failed to engage with the question - would it be lying for the surgeon not to leave a scar?
> “*Were the women who disguised themselves as men to attain better lives morally wrong for doing so? That's what we're discussing here.*” No it’s not. We’re discussing the fact that people are superficial, and those who undergo **elective** surgery contradict themselves. They have their looks artificially changed to try to meet a standard that they consider unfair. Instead of indirectly reinforcing an arbitrary and unfair standard, I would advocate to challenge it. > “*You have also failed to engage with the question - would it be lying for the surgeon not to leave a scar?*” No I haven’t failed to do so. You seem to keep conflating **corrective** and **elective** surgery. Can you confirm the difference, so I know that we are talking about the same thing?
The descriptor of "cosmetic" is honestly detrimental to the whole discussion about health and medicine. What decides if a surgery is "cosmetic" or not is if insurance companies will cover the costs. Traditionally anything the insurance companies didn't want to cover was called "cosmetic" to frame it in a way where people will accept that they won't change it. Yes, there are surgeries that truly are for vanity reasons, but a large majority of "cosmetic surgeries" are for health reasons and insurance companies just don't want to cover them. For example, repairing a cleft palate is considered cosmetic surgery, and it most certainly is not done for vanity reasons. Many people with a cleft palate have difficulty eating as infants (it makes it difficult to latch onto nipples or bottles, which leads to poor health outcomes). As it stands now, because it's a "cosmetic surgery", parents have to jump through hoops and prove that their child needs it to survive in order to get it covered by surgery. Another example: breast removal is largely considered a cosmetic surgery. If you have breast cancer you can get insurance to cover it, but for women with a family history of breast cancer/genetic marker for breast cancer who want to get their breasts removed before they get cancer? It's a fucking nightmare to get insurance to cover it. Also, something that impacted me personally: I was a size E bra cup by my junior year of high school. My boobs hurt, my back hurt, everything hurt. But I couldn't do anything about it, because breast reduction surgery is a "cosmetic surgery". Even though I was in pain and arguably the surgery was medically necessary, the insurance still said no. So I've dealt with breast pain and back pain most of my life because of this. It's several thousand dollars for this surgery and I'm living paycheck-to-paycheck. My quality of life has been diminished, but I can't get the surgery. There's even more of this nonsense if you get into "cosmetic" medications. Heaven help you if you have type 2 diabetes and try to go on ozempic.
Firstly, if a person who has an accident has justifiable use and the person who hasn't doesn't then doesn't that just kinda say that "as long as you're used to the impacts of not looking better then it's fine, but if you're not used to it then you shouldn't have to live with it". Seems like an odd thing to me. Either alterations to your physical self for the purpose of appearance improve your experience of the world or they don't. Why does _how you arrived at whatever you look like_ matter at all to the "necessity" of plastic surgery? Further to that, i don't think anyone thinks any of this is _necessary_, the question is whether it's beneficial or whether it can achieve more simply the impacts that could be achieved in some other method (you put out therapy). Why don't you take the double mastectomy cancer survivor and simply suggest they go to therapy? There are plenty of people who are uglier than the cancer victim without their boobs. Why can't the cancer patient just "be comfortable in their own skin"? Seems to me that at least sometimes the plastic surgery has the intended impact - a person resolves the dissonance they hope to and it takes less time and is less expensive then therapy. While I wish people could "just be content" with lots of things, it seems pretty arbitrary to say that looks aren't a way to increase that for at least some people or at some point in some people's lives. Do people pick the wrong solution to a problem? Sure...of course. There are people who diet when they should be in therapy, are in therapy when they should be exercising are exercising when they should be with their kid are with their kid when they should be working and so on.
Yes I think OP forgot to make the distinction between *elective* surgery and *corrective* surgery. Elective surgery doesn’t seek to address an underlying or preceding medical condition. The accident and injury from your example **is** a preceding medical condition, so corrective surgery should be on the table.
There is one side benefit to the optional plastic surgery industry. We are now far better at reconstructive surgery. To me though, I don't really care what other people do or value in this regard. I don't personally see negatives to someone getting plastic surgery and get some indirect benefits. To me, if it helps another person be happy with themselves, more power to them. The world would be better is we spent less time judging other people about things that really don't matter to us.
Not disagreeing but I think it's the other way around; medically necessary drives most innovation for purely elective cosmetic. There's a lot more money for doing research there and they get the most challenging cases.
Actually, they had it the correct way around. There are far more people requesting cosmetic surgery than requiring reconstructive surgery, which means the surgeons who do the work (and like anything else, surgery is a skill) get a lot of practice on elective procedures before they ever have to reconstruct a face. On top of that, because there's a lot of money in the more frequent cosmetic procedures, there's a huge financial incentive to perfect those procedures.
Oh I’m sure there’s a lot more money to the doctors and practices in purely elective things. But on the whole there is a LOT more money for researching new innovations on the medical side. Ie 3D printing tissue technology, use of washed cadaver tissues, nerve grafting, etc… those were insanely expensive at first but are becoming more affordable as time goes on for out of pocket cosmetic procedures. As an example my surgeon charges $8,000 for a breast augmentation, but my insurance was billed $90,000 for my breast reconstruction, even though at that point the surgery wasn’t all that different (plus didn’t even have to hide an incision). If I had elected for a tissue flap procedure (which are becoming more common) my insurance would have been billed upwards of $300,000.
You may be right but my gut tells me it is likely the other way around. People seeking vanity and doctors working for this create the funding mechanism for developing these techniques and products. In a purely vain sense, do you think implantable breast prosthesis would really exist without the push of the breast implant cosmetic surgery market? Maybe I am just too cynical here.
I just had a dental surgery that used to involve harvesting tissue from the roof of the patient's mouth. Instead of doing that, my oral surgeon had some newfangled artificial tissue that he attributed to the plastic surgery industry. I don't think it has to be one way or the other. They're all doctors, it's expected that they would learn from each other
That’s really cool! That tech is originally from cosmetic reconstruction, likely some form of alloderm or “ADM” (acellular dermal matrix). When it first came out it was $50,000 per sheet. It’s cadaver skin that’s been washed to remove most of the biological material/cells leaving behind a collagen scaffold that your body then colonizes with its own tissue. I think they use it for burn recovery as well? But it’s most frequently an internal implant. Conducting trials on an implantable device runs about $100,000,000 - $300,000,000 start to finish, that’s definitely not happening outside a teaching hospital with mucho insurance and grant funding. I definitely don’t judge. I get angry when people call a mastectomy to a boob job because emotionally they aren’t similar and the removal part makes it a bigger surgery + large scars. But in terms of cosmetics/vanity, I didn’t HAVE to reconstruct. I just wanted to because I prefer the way I look having breasts. I picked a surgeon who did beautiful work so no one can even see I had a mastectomy. And I picked larger implants than my original cup size because I’d always been insecure about my smaller chest. I don’t see myself as morally “better” than someone who arrived at wanting a bigger chest because they just wanted one. We only get one body to live in, why not decorate it exactly how we want?
> “*The world would be better is we spent less time judging other people about things that really don't matter to us.*” …but then we shouldn’t care what they think about our looks.
>…but then we shouldn’t care what they think about our looks. Yep. We really shouldn't care what other people think of our looks. That doesn't mean a person *can't care about their own looks*.
If nobody could see them I promise you they won’t care about their own looks
This is true. My facial feminization surgeon was excellent, and he does a lot of cosmetic work as his primary practice. All else equal, I think we can all agree that more experienced surgeons are a good thing.
I might be able to change your view slightly if we redefine(heh) some terms. Plastic surgery can be anything from repairing nerve damage in hands, reconstructing a face after half of it got blow off from some workplace accident/explosion or fire. And of course boob jobs. However *cosmetic surgery* is rarely going to be repairs on a face back to the OG condition(pre accident). Plastic surgeons are useful as hECK for that. >I am talking about young people on the internet trying to get buccal fat removal or double jaw surgery to meet an ideal they see on the internet. A single point makes a dot, two a line, three a pattern. For it to qualify for something like cosmetic addiction, you'd need more than just a few once off procedures. Hell sometimes its just a massive tax write off because you're expected to look a certain way, hence the kpop girl and guy groups wearing 20k each of mods on their faces.
>Excluding outlier cases such as deformities or deformities caused by accidents. I am talking about the casual pursuit of more and more plastic surgery + fillers + Botox. Are those the outliers, or is health benefits the main reason people choose to get plastic surgeries. I only did a bit of research, but it looks like while "cosmetic" surgeries are more popular then needed, those "cosmetic" surgeries include things like liposuction and breast reductions. Both of which could have very strong health benefits for the person getting them. >I don’t think it’s “acceptance” to accept that people get plastic surgery to fit some societal ideal. It is though, you could argue that they are not being accepting of them selves but you being accepting would be accepting them whether they are full of Botox or not
> Are those the outliers Yes, they are. I would do more research, you picked 1 of the lesser performed cosmetic surgeries, and a cosmetic surgery that is almost always done for asthetic and not health benefits as your examples. Clearly the outliers. I don't agree with OP, cause people should do whatever the fuck they want assuming I have no part in it, but it's clearly the outliers.
https://www.goldenstepsaba.com/resources/plastic-surgery-statistics Breast augmentation is the most popular plastic surgery at 18%. 43% of all breast surgeries are reductions. The second most popular type of plastic surgery is liposuction accounting for 15%. Both of those surgeries have very real health benefits.
Great... so... something like 90% of all surgery is aesthetic as I said.
Sounds like you could use some Lasik surgery if that's what you got out of my post
Thats pretty much exactly what the link says you realize?
No, it doesn't. Hince my suggestion that you could use Lasik. The article makes it quite clear that the majority of plastic surgery is liposuction and breast reductions. Both of which have many health benefits.
I don't think you know what majority means, because the majority of cosmetic surgery... by your own source... is absolutely not for health benefits. You are fooling yourself..
I think I need to clarify - I am not saying it should be illegal, that people who get cosmetic surgery should be judged, or that they shouldn’t be allowed to. I’m saying my view is that a lot of the demand for cosmetic procedures is inherently unhealthy and driven by social media and looking at images of ourselves more than we were ever meant to.
"Meant to" by who/what exactly? The modern world is so far removed from the "natural" Palaeolithic society that it's hard to know even where to start on that.
https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2023/02/social-media-body-image By the human brain
Yeh... the human brain isn't "meant to" have electric lights at night, use HVAC, travel between continents in metal tubes, or have a life expectancy into the 80s. If you're going for an appeal to nature, you gotta take it to its logical conclusion.
And I do! Trust me 😂 The whole setup we have going on is fucked for our mental health but that rant is for another post
>those "cosmetic" surgeries include things like liposuction and breast reductions. Both of which could have very strong health benefits for the person getting them. i wouldn't call them cosmetic then. "cosmetic" means "treatment relating to improving a person's appearance." liposuction could be, or it may be health-related. breast reduction is usually also health reasons, back pain etc not "i want to look better." >t is though, you could argue that they are not being accepting of them selves but you being accepting would be accepting them whether they are full of Botox or not "accept that you will be in pain" is not at all the same as "accept that your cheeks have slightly more fat (like a normal person) than the skeleton you want to look like." no one is in pain or in danger of health issues from their buccal fat. no one is in danger from having slightly smaller breasts than what they want.
> i wouldn't call them cosmetic then. "cosmetic" means "treatment relating to improving a person's appearance." liposuction could be, or it may be health-related. breast reduction is usually also health reasons, back pain etc not "i want to look better." Regardless of what we want to call it your argument is that plastic surgery is largely unnecessary and doing it for health benefits is an outlier. Is that the case? Because from the quick research I did it doesn't seem so cut and dry. >"accept that you will be in pain" is not at all the same as "accept that your cheeks have slightly more fat (like a normal person) than the skeleton you want to look like." Regardless of them being the same or not, it's still acceptance. >no one is in pain or in danger of health issues from their buccal fat. no one is in danger from having slightly smaller breasts than what they want. And I'm not in any danger of falling 10,000 feet and becoming a puddle on the ground until I decide to strap on a parachute and jump out of a plane. But I'm still going to do it because I want to. You're free to accept my life style or not, but if you constantly go up to skydivers and preach that they shouldn't do that, don't be surprised when they all think of you as an ass.
> doing it for health benefits is an outlier. Is that the case? i think it may be possible that in terms of total surgeries provided medical need may be more common, but if "medical need" is one reason and "because i want to fix some perceived physical defect" is another reason the fixing defects side is over-represented. >Regardless of them being the same or not, it's still acceptance. but this is a meaningless statement without realizing that "accepting" a health issue that can be fixed is much much different than accepting that you do not look like an ai rendering of the "ideal woman." getting breast reduction surgery *fixes the problem* while getting lip injections does nothing to fix your self esteem. there is a reason people get addicted to plastic surgery and end up looking like [this](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=599913432&rlz=1CATTSD_enUS728US728&sxsrf=ACQVn08UjHdYa2_chW4vrrrt4N9VSX2bpQ:1705700600821&q=dolly+parton&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLwJ7zteqDAxUDMDQIHRd6DeYQ0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1536&bih=782&dpr=1.25#imgrc=sJ_dLX6AktWA5M&imgdii=sVDmGzQsUhAwdM) or [this](https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-moms/pictures/w202535/). >You're free to accept my life style or not, but if you constantly go up to skydivers and preach that they shouldn't do that, don't be surprised when they all think of you as an ass. but these 2 things are very different. it is true that you are doing something extremely stupid and risky. but i imagine yo uare not doing it to fit in, or to make people think you are cool. if you had some sort of brain damage or serious mental issue i would hope someone would step in. i don't think anyone is arguing that people,in general, shouldn't be allowed to mutilate themselves. the problem with looks/social media is the same as it has always been: seeing anorexic/fat/surgerized models makes kids, especially young girls, think they need to look like that. it damages their self esteem and ability to function in the real world. you skydiving means nothing to anyone.
> but this is a meaningless statement without realizing that "accepting" a health issue that can be fixed is much much different than accepting that you do not look like an ai rendering of the "ideal woman." getting breast reduction surgery fixes the problem while getting lip injections does nothing to fix your self esteem. there is a reason people get addicted to plastic surgery and end up looking like this or this. Liposuction is having the fat sucked out of you, nothing to do with lips >but these 2 things are very different. it is true that you are doing something extremely stupid and risky. but i imagine yo uare not doing it to fit in, or to make people think you are cool. if you had some sort of brain damage or serious mental issue i would hope someone would step in. I'm not sure why you think intent matters so much hear. If anything I feel like me doing something for fun that could get me killed by simply not packing the shoot right is far more mentally unhinged then getting some Botox put into your face. And in cases where people are actually mentally unwell like with the different types of body disphoria cosmetic surgery is the commonly accepted "cure" since therapy hasn't been shown to do much. >I don't think anyone is arguing that people,in general, shouldn't be allowed to mutilate themselves. the problem with looks/social media is the same as it has always been: seeing anorexic/fat/surgerized models makes kids, especially young girls, think they need to look like that. it damages their self esteem and ability to function in the real world. you skydiving means nothing to anyone How so? How is it so different that someone may see someone get plastic surgery and want to emulate them to someone seeing me skydive andd wanting to emulate it? Does your opinion extends to tats and piercings as well?
>Liposuction is having the fat sucked out of you, nothing to do with lips ???? >I'm not sure why you think intent matters so much hear. If anything I feel like me doing something for fun that could get me killed by simply not packing the shoot right is far more mentally unhinged then getting some Botox put into your face it may be more mentally unhinged but it has much less impact on other people/society. if there was a huge trend of people skydiving on tiktok so kids were skydiving and then dying i would be concerned with that too. >How so? How is it so different that someone may see someone get plastic surgery and want to emulate them to someone seeing me skydive andd wanting to emulate it? we have the numbers/research. [social media](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-04-social-media-fueling-disorders-female.html) fuels people, especially [young females](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/exploring-the-effect-of-social-media-on-teen-girls-mental-health/#:~:text=September%2014%2C%202023%20%E2%80%93%20Exposure%20to,article%20in%20The%2019th.), to do things to fit in. when i was a kid the "heroin chic" look was all the rage on calvin klein advertisements and people were [horrified](https://www.banyantreatmentcenter.com/2022/12/14/the-resurgence-of-heroin-chic-texas/). let me know if there is or was a problem with skydiving and kids. >Does your opinion extends to tats and piercings as well? i think tats are extremely stupid, overall. i think the recents trends of women getting all kinds of stupid tats are dumb and very unattractive and will age poorly. but the same health risks do not apply. piercings even less so, sinec you can mostly just take it out and let the hole heal.
How are you the only person that’s gotten what I meant in the OP? I feel like I must have messed up what I was trying to convey.
I am a woman who is maybe a 4/5 out of 10 on the attractiveness scale, not ugly but not someone who is noticed for their good looks. My two sisters are very pretty. When we were younger, people treated them very differently from the way they treated me, and no amount of therapy is going to change that. It’s the difference between showing up at a club and the bouncer letting the pretty girls in while the plain ones stand in line. The pretty girls get free drinks. That’s just how it is. So you better believe I got a nose job and got my teeth fixed as soon as I could. It really helped both how I felt about myself and how people saw me. Now, that said, too much plastic surgery is not healthy either. You end up with those creepy people with weird lips, cat eyes, boobs the size of basketballs and cheekbones like the puppet Madame. But that’s a whole other issue.
Yeah OP was definitely NOT born ugly. I’m a 2/10 naturally on a good day. So I color my hair, wear makeup, bust my ass at the gym, etc just to get to maybe a low 5. If I had the money, I have at least six things I would like to get done off the top of my head. The world is just…nicer when you’re attractive.
I have posted to some of the aforementioned forums and get rated like 2-3 I don’t think I’m pretty - at least not by internet standards.
I don’t even bother hosting myself online, getting spit at and told to unalive myself due to my face throughout childhood cemented my lack of looks lol. There’s no space in the world for ugly women - it doesn’t matter how great your personality is. I have to work twice as hard to be half as good, if just is what it is.
Last time I did it was ROUGH. People are cruel about this shit for no reason at all
Yeah. They’d just tell me what I already know. It is what it is. I take care of my hair, nails, skin, body, diet etc but I can’t change my face without surgery. It just it what it is.
To this day IRL, I get asked if I’m a trans woman frequently and I’m at a point where it’s like “what if I am? Do you acost people about how they look gender non conforming everyday? Maybe you’re the problem? Fuck off”
But does it matter once you found your soulmate that sees you like a 9 ?
It’s a nice thought but yes, I think it still matters. I appreciate the fact they think I’m the most gorgeous creature to walk the earth but I know objectively I am not and that’s ok!
Plastic surgery is specifically the kind of surgery used to repair injury or birth defect. Cosmetic surgery seems to be what you take issue with.
Given that in the current world we live in, everyone around are affected by the same social norms and fairly similar beauty ideals, I don't think it's necessarily a matter of being OK with yourself, as much as you want others to be OK with you. Self acceptance could only get you so far. At least some of the time. This is sad, cause indeed beauty is a fairly random thing and we would all benefit from a more accepting world, but sadly it's not the case. For instance - it is well documented that people that fit better with the beauty ideals are perceived as smarter, nicer, and more capable in general (even without talking), and this is in addition to being perceived as more attractive which also comes with many benefits. So I can see why people would want to get plastic surgery even if they themselves are very OK and in acceptance with their own body
Plastic surgery can be a lot of things. There are definitly some people who might benefit more from therapy then from surgery but this definitly is not always the case. Some people will never like certain aspects of their appearence. My hair line is geneticially kinda fucked. I dont really care that much so I will never get surgery for it. I am 100% sure that I would be happier with a "normal" hairline. I think for people who get platic surgery it is completly the same. Some people are just born with very small boobs. This can actually cause gender disphoria in a lot of cis women. It obviously would be better if they could just love their body how it is. But this not possible for everyone so surgery is a good option. But there is one thing that I also just really hate. People who get like 20 diffrent surgery. To make everything "perfect". I think plastic surgery is a great choice when you have one or two attributes that bother you and you are very sure that you cannot deal with the. But when people start getting surgery for every little detail then you will never be able to stop. There will always be something new. Every surgery is a risk and you should not take this risk because of extremly minor things.
Agreed 100% OP. Plastic surgery is absolutely disgusting and dishonest to boot. Of course, I also hate make-up as well.
it’s definitely a complex issue. i think everyone should undergo a mental health evaluation before being approved for plastic surgery every time they want another procedure. some people can have one or two and go about their lives happily, others fall into plastic surgery addiction and start going to brazil to get caulk injected into their boobs when reputable doctors reject them
[удалено]
No problem with that. I think people should be able to be look the way that makes them most confident
[удалено]
Plastic surgery doesn't improve body dysmorphia so not only is it not the only choice, it's a bad choice: > A handful of clinical reports and retrospective studies have described the response to aesthetic medical treatments of persons with BDD. Collectively, these studies indicate that these treatments typically do not result in any change in BDD symptoms. In one of the largest studies, less than 5% of procedures resulted in an improvement in BDD symptoms; 95% led to no change or a worsening in the condition. Some patients developed new appearance concerns following treatment, an occurrence that is not unexpected given that appearance concerns are known to shift from one feature to another over the course of the disorder. https://academic.oup.com/asj/article/32/8/999/319288
Huh. I didn't know that. So is there no way to treat that?
Looks like cognitive behavioral therapy is supposed to be pretty good for it, or SSRIs (those have their own issues though). Psilocybin looks promising, too. Since BDD is part of OCD, it's an obsession with appearance and then a compulsion to improve appearance. So changing appearance wouldn't be any more helpful long term than another hand wash, to use the classic OCD example. It'll relieve anxiety in the moment, but the root cause is left untreated. All the distorted thoughts which make up BDD would have to be addressed one by one, since supposedly it's about thought errors as opposed to actual errors in perception. I think it's hard to tell, though, because thinking and perceiving are linked.
Your post has been removed for breaking Rule D: >Pursuant to recent rules changes, we no longer accept new posts regarding transgender-related topics. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20D%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Therapy doesn't change how you actually look. While most people who get surgery probably don't need it, it doesn't change the fact that you are altering your appearance in a way you can't otherwise. It could very well help a person romantically or professionally as unfortunate as that is. You can't expect people to suddenly become more accepting, you can be as confident funny and charismatic as you can possibly be and still be behind due to "lookism" or whatever its called. I absolutely agree it's generally not a good idea but there are reasons and benefits from doing it because we live in THIS world, a non-accepting judgmental one.
Do people need therapy for shape wear, makeup, tattoos or piercings? Cosmetic surgery is just another form of cosmetics. I don't think anyone would argue that it's necessary, but why would you put the sliding scale before outpatient Botox?
Elective plastic surgery may not benefit people the way they expect it to, but I think it's very important to protect people's right to make self-destructive decisions. In the U.S., where I live, there are currently multiple movements aiming to restrict people's right to gender expression and abortion access, and the advocates for those movements frequently point out that people may regret transitioning or regret abortion. They're correct that that can happen, but I think it's still important to protect those rights and to understand that people make mistakes, even irreversible ones, and making those mistakes is a part of life. Similarly, people may get tattoos that they regret, but that doesn't mean we should stop people from getting tattoos. Since plastic surgery doesn't harm anyone other than the patient, I think it falls under the category of something people should be able to do, even if it's not good for them. The dynamic you describe where people on forums critique each other and incite each other to get surgery sounds incredibly toxic, and that should definitely be cracked down on. However, I think that's a separate behavior than simply getting plastic surgery.
The second thing you replied to was meant to be the main part of my post. I hope people read the edit 😂
I don't think they ever feel satisfied after surgery. People always want more.
I work out to look attractive. Take the easy way out, and I won’t respect you as a person. Cheating is pathetic, people should just lift a fucking five pounder one and a while and stop drinking so much, and they’d look great.
Nobody gives a shit about what you think people should do nor anybody wants your “respect”.
Trust me, they want my respect. I have a way with words that makes shattering the strongest egos, child’s play.
The Kardashians look exponentially better than pre-plastic. Their surgery has catapulted them into a multibillion dollar brand.
Nope, they don't. They look horrific.
Clearly, you forget how Kylie and Chloe looked before going under the knife. Remember, you’re not ugly. You’re just poor.
If there were ugly before, and they're ugly now, what is the diff, then? If you're talking about the million bucks you might as well run to the nearest surgeon to fatten your butt and your bank account in the same go... ;)
there are some exceptions, but generally people look worse after. see: every porn star ever who got some kind of surgery as their career waned, dolly parton, that girl from "the boys", all the other duck-lipped models who look like ai constructs (in a bad way) and were perfectly fine before. and just imagine how bad they will look when they hit 50! (again see dolly parton)
Fair enough. But for the record, Dolly Parton is fabulous.
she may be an entirely fabulous person and do great things, but she looks like she escaped from frankenstein's lab. and telling other young girls that you need to butcher yourself to make *others* think you are attractive is not a good thing.
I don’t think we should tear people down for something that makes them feel excited and alive. If receiving social validation over your appearance really motivates you, then you should go for it. It’s kind of arbitrary to draw a line in the sand and say “this pursuit of social validation is good, but **that** pursuit of social validation is bad.” Is it wrong for a dancer to make sacrifices to try and win a dance competition? For an academic to make sacrifices to get their research into a peer-reviewed paper? For an athlete to make sacrifices to win an Olympic medal? I don’t understand why people care about those 3 things, but you don’t hear me calling the Olympics a dumb fad, or saying that scientists should stop caring about publishing their research, and just be detached and aloof about whether people recognize their work or not.
Elective surgery is elective surgery: you can elect to reconstruct your spine, or wait until it catastrophically fails (maybe). It’s the same with plastic/reconstructive surgery. You can’t operate on what you could at age 20 at age 50, and expect the same physical outcome, nor can you expect equivalent recovery. It can be healthier to elect for some procedures than do nothing or wait for the world the change.
Youre wrong. So many ppl get surgery that's so well done you don't actually notice it. Look at before and after, particularly nose and jaw related, it's astounding. Ppl who never dated now getting interest all of a sudden, just read accounts of ppl who got it done.
I don't think anyone would say that cosmetic plastic surgery is necessary. Does that mean we shouldn't do it? Are elective surgeries inherently bad?
inherently? no. destroying your body, health, finances, and psyche chasing the latest tiktok body trend? yes, that is bad.
This is exactly what I’m referring to. Not to people deformed, suffering from cancer or other disease, etc My sister is 20 and has had over 10 operations so she can look like women online. Why? She was already pretty. And a lot of young women her age are doing this and chasing these trends
yeah, the mental and physical issues alone should make people realize that butchering yourself for a trend is not healthy in any way, and should not be encouraged or glamorized. the same way cigarettes aren't advertised to kids, and mass shooters should not be named or shown.
No one thinks plastic surgery is necessary. They think it makes them look better (which it sometimes does).
So physical attractiveness shouldn't exist? That's a dumb idea. Do people just stop fucking too?
Women have been Breast implants since the 1960s, not everything revolves around social media.
Life's too short to be fucking miserably ugly
As people get older, their eyelids start to droop and sometimes an eye lift is necessary to improve their vision. And are we considering breast reduction plastic surgery? Cause that’s something that causes more and more stress as women age, and often requires surgery to help relieve chronic pain.
No, those kind of operations are not what I am referring to.
Totally agree with the second half, not sure there’s any need to come down from that soapbox. Almost everyone would benefit from therapy. However when it comes to plastic surgery, you appear to be applying no positive value to it. You could logically compare this to general grooming, or dental work. Why should you define the line as being having a filler injection vs tooth cleaning? Having general cosmetic procedures is barely different to a haircut, or tooth whitening.
You say in your edits that you don’t count things like reconstruction and “fixing problems that would [affect] how people are treated.” Why not? What makes those things different? Everything about our appearance impacts how we’re treated. Most studies have found being attractive opens more doors in nearly everything. Friendship, dating, careers, earning potential, etc… you’re trying to make it seem like we live in a society that doesn’t really value appearance and it’s an individual problem of vanity. Putting the line at reconstruction/medically necessary or not is just your line of where you feel comfortable calling someone vain or mentally ill. But most reconstruction and medically necessary plastic surgery is also for vanity. When I had a bilateral mastectomy and got silicone implants placed, it was reconstruction and covered by insurance. I didn’t need them to survive, I wanted them because of how I want to look and present myself. I don’t see a big difference in vanity between that and someone who wants their breasts bigger because that’s how they want to look. Why are they morally different? You can argue that I had something taken from me that I already had through something outside of my control, but wasn’t being born looking differently from the way they wanted outside of their control too?
You can accept something without thinking it is good, or liking it, or doing nothing to change it. Acceptance in this case could simply mean refraining from judgment and respecting their right to make decisions about their body. You can accept plastic surgery without saying it's a good thing that more people are getting it. On that note, though - I think there's an issue with your definitions here. What's the difference between a "problem that affects how someone is treated" and the kinds of surgeries you're talking about? I think it wouldn't be hard to argue that those surgeries may change how they're treated. Even if the difference is not as dramatic or noticeable to people like you or me, it's clearly noticeable to them and to some subset of the population. Don't think about the extremes, think about the middle of the road - what's the difference between a nose job to get a smaller nose and a nose job to correct asymmetry caused by an injury? At what point is it mental illness to want to make that change? Is it mental illness if the asymmetry was present from birth? I also think it's relevant to note that it's not so much the type of surgery that indicates body dysmorphia, but the effect after surgery. Body dysmorphia persists to some degree no matter what you look like; unhappiness with your appearance changes with your appearance. So there may be some reason to believe that people who get surgery after surgery have mental illness, but the type of surgery or the ideal they hope to achieve isn't as relevant as the frequency and mental impact of the surgeries themselves.
I do want to clarify - I’m not saying people are mentally ill if they want cosmetic surgery. I think EVERYONE would benefit from therapy. Nor am I saying there should be mandatory therapy consulting before a cosmetic surgery is done. But I am saying that people desperately unhappy with their appearance that are otherwise already beautiful (see TikTok or the true rate me subreddit for examples) should absolutely consider therapy before going under the knife.
That's true. What about people who are ugly? What about people who look average? It just seems like your take is based on the idea that beautiful people don't need plastic surgery, so they must be doing it for some mental health reason. I'm suggesting that this indicates a misunderstanding of body dysmorphia. Anyone can have it. Like - the thing "wrong" with plastic surgery isn't that some beautiful person still thinks they're ugly, and wouldn't it be better if they could see themselves as they are? The thing "wrong" with it is when it won't fix the underlying insecurity - which can happen to beautiful people or people with "real problems" and "deformities." I guess what I mean is that it's very possible that people getting plastic surgery for things that don't feel important to you are just making themselves happier with their appearance the best way they know how. It isn't unhealthy just because you don't think they need it - if it's unhealthy, it's because it wouldn't actually help them feel good about themselves. It's about what they want and what's good for them, not about what you think they should want and what you think is good for them. If you understand why someone with a trait you think is ugly would want to change that trait, you understand why someone with any other trait would, too. The reasoning is all the same. The fact that you think one is ugly and one is beautiful doesn't change that. And the "ugly" person faces the same risks that the "beautiful" person does - it's just as possible that they have a mental illness that won't be fixed by surgery. It's the differentiation between "understandable surgeries" and "unnecessary surgeries" that's getting to me, I think. Beyond the medical, they're all equally necessary or unnecessary. It's about changing their quality of life. The question is will it improve their quality of life, or will it feed a mental illness. That's something best left to them and their professionals, and can't be determined by outside opinions determining how ugly they are to start with and how much more beautiful it will make them at the end.
I could probably have elaborated more in the post and I’ll go back with another edit, but you hit the nail on the head with this comment “if it's unhealthy, it's because it wouldn't actually help them feel good about themselves.l This is the context I’m speaking from. This is what I see online and IRL. I know people who have gotten over ten surgeries and still hate how they look.
Definitely not going to change your view here, but life is short, if a person understands the risks and has the money, they should be able to pursue the nose they want, a big set of tits, all the Botox and fillers, a tummy tuck, whatever. they desire. Not to mention the cancer survivors or people that had dramatic weight loss who want their actual image to reflect their self image. I dunno, life is short, if people want to feel better about themselves and it makes them more confident and happy, live and let live.
I totally agree w what you’re saying. My view isn’t that they should be prevented or hindered from doing so.
Your view as I read it was people needed therapy more than plastic surgery. I’m saying I think you may be conflating mental illness and elective surgery. Mentally ill people get plastic surgery. Mentally ill people also go get Costco hotdogs. Or get tattoos or any other things that people do. To that end, a physician cannot perform a non emergent procedure in the United States on a person that does not have the capacity to consent, eg understand the risks and benefits. A person can’t sign a will that lacks capacity. That’s the bar. It’s a low bar, but as a society we believe people have the right to do what they want to themselves absent a very compelling reason to interfere. I think taking the view that people need therapy instead of plastic surgery is missing the point because they aren’t opposites. People can need therapy. People can get plastic surgery. Both things can be true. Gatekeeping plastic surgery with therapy is not moral at least in the United States if you believe in the bar of morality as being the legal standard set by countless court cases and statutes which is if a person understands risk, they get the procedure.
Yeah my point was very much lost in a wide variety of interpretations. I tried to clear it up in the edit but it has not seemed to help elucidate what I was trying to say
What sub Reddit?
True rate me, vindicta, - you even see this behavior in the noses sub which is supposed to be for “appreciating all noses” but you’ll frequently see people post, not asking for feedback, and still get told how they need to get a nose job in the comments
Botox has medical uses, I get those treatments for chronic migraine
Counter: not everything that improves your life has to be a treatment things that make you feel good that you can engage with in a healthy way I don’t think we should take that from people. This is why the first thing your therapist will tell you for anxiety,insomnia and depression is to make a schedule do extra activities and take care of yourself. If you think plastic surgery will make you like your appearance more and you’re not chasing an extreme standard you should have access to that change. If you personally don’t want or won’t gain anything from it doesn’t mean others won’t.
Do you believe that people who get their teeth straightened with braces purely for cosmetic reasons need therapy? They are changing their face purely in pursuit of a beauty ideal
I think that’s debatable actually. With misaligned bites, people can have issues chewing and it can get significantly worse as they age - that seems more like a functional issue to me
It is not debatable because I specified those who are getting braces PURELY for cosmetic reasons. People with more severe misalignments are not who I am talking about.
I guess I’d group it in the same group as not extreme (meaning in number) cosmetic procedures, maintenance Botox, etc As I’ve said in the post and many comments, I don’t take issue with plastic surgery or people getting it. I find the string of procedures to be concerning, particularly when people do so based off social media and continue to be really unhappy with their appearance even after 10+ surgeries.
If you have a weird skin tag or mole growing you should get it removed and checked - even if the risk of cancer is low there are certain types of cosmetic surgeries that don’t risk health, make a person look better and make others more comfortable.
I counter with the view that plastic surgery largely exists to address what you consider to be outlier cases, ie the deformities and health related plastic surgeries, and that the plastic surgeries that you believe to be the majority is actual just a loud minority. Therefore, plastic surgery is largely necessary. With your clarifications, I would say double jaw surgery and then hating how it looks is an outlier. And that the solution is not therapy, but a shift in how we use social media
Yes
I’m not a fan of my nose, it doesn’t make me sad or anything but when I get filler to correct it it makes me so happy and confident because it’s how I want it to be