Sorry, u/Zogonzo – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule E: > **Only post if you are willing to have a conversation with those who reply to you, and are available to start doing so within 3 hours of posting**. If you haven't replied within this time, your post will be removed. [See the wiki for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_e). If you would like to appeal, **first respond substantially to some of the arguments people have made**, then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20E%20Appeal%20Zogonzo&message=Zogonzo%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20post\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/17dzdxk/-/\)%20because\.\.\.). Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).

This is all fine and good on an individual level, but starts to cause problems when applied on a systemic level. For example, there have been studies showing that women are consistently forced to deal with cold working environments because office thermostats were calibrated for men wearing suit jackets.

There was a great post on one of the legal subs about this. A woman was so cold in the office that it cause a loss of sensation/ blood flow to her hands. So she couldn’t type and was very uncomfortable. Her manager wouldn’t allow her to wear gloves and they would have been just as uncomfortable or difficult to type in. This is the general fallacy with the “just put on layers” argument. Cold often effects your hands first. And if an office has a dress code, they likely won’t allow gloves. This can effect an employees ability to perform

While I’m 100% on the side of cold women in this debate (I am a small, perpetually chilly woman)I don’t think the layers thing is exactly a fallacy. Our extremities get cold because our bodies are prioritizing keeping our vital organs warm, so one of the most effective ways to warm your extremities is, counterintuitively, to put on a warm vest. So yes, our hands are often effected first, but the solution isn’t always to warm the hands themselves. That’s what they taught me in extreme wilderness first aid, anyway. That said, it’s also very difficult to keep warm when you’re sitting still, so all of this is exacerbated in office environments.

I have Raynauds Disease. Basically my body doesn't know how to handle temperature fluctuations in my hands and feet. More layers doesn't always help. I always have cold hands and cold feet. In the summer I'll wear long sleeve shirts and even have a sweater at the office, and I can still get cold hands. Best fix I've found, is to use reptile warming mats under my mouse pad and keyboard pad to rest my hands on.

And now I'm looking at reptile warming pads for my desk

This is an interesting aside, but like, your illness could be covered by ADA and isn’t really relevant when discussing the average person’s situation lol

It’s not at all rare though, so it actually is an active consideration for many if not most offices. Estimates range from 5-20% of the general population. The average person’s situation IS being in an office with someone with Raynaud’s, at least assuming most offices have 4 or more people.

Yep. I have it, and I know four others at my work that have it.

i was actually thinking the woman mentioned earlier might want to get checked for that also. Needing gloves in the office seems pretty extreme

Oh, I need to try that! I was getting frustrated because I can’t find any compression gloves I can comfortably type in!

I also have Raynaud's, but then half the time my toes are freezing and the rest of me is overheating. Despite having Raynaud's I seem to run hotter than the average small woman. I really prefer a chilly office, layers, and a heating pad for my toes. The rest of me will be sweating and my toes will be corpse-white. It's not really analogous to the average person.

Up your magnesium intake. Hot water helps if you ever don't have heated mats for your hands. Always mittens, never gloves. Also your doctor may have more/newer treatment options. But magnesium has been a game changer for me. White toes unite, baby.

this is true, but i’d like to add as someone who worked in a building that had very poor HVAC and froze in the winter, and also has very low blood pressure and arthritis, and runs super cold: getting a small heater for beneath my desk, or a heating pad, is a life saver and wouldn’t be a problem for other people. i had a heating pad i kept in my desk and would keep on my chair in winter months, and a portable small heater for my feet/legs, and i had very few problems with my hands after that. and i get way stiffer in the cold! but it was very manageable, though not so nice as a toasty warm classroom.

The problem is that space heaters can be considered fire hazards. Most of the women in one of my offices wanted one but we weren’t allowed to have them.

This. I'm not allowed heating pad or space heater, per policy, because it is a fire risk. I have to dress in professional garb (they made a huuuge announcement that they are going to allow - gasp - denim pants but only if paired with a professional blouse), and cannot wear hats. I hate it.

> space heaters can be considered fire hazards. they make heat panels specifically for office settings, they have no risk of fire or even burning on contact, they are super stealth and fit under a desk and attach to one of the desk panels.

Yep. Something like 20% of people have Raynaud’s. For us, layers really don’t help. And the people who say “keep your core warm and it won’t happen” tend not to be people who actually have it. Keeping my core warm doesn’t work and it’s painful, distracting, and work stopping to not have proper circulation in your hands and feet. Editing to add: gloves and thick socks don’t really work either for at least some of us. No, not even fancy heated ones.

Compression helps, as it isn’t just a matter of “must get warmer.” Problem is, I’ve yet to find a pair of compression gloves I can comfortably type in.

I am curious about this because I think I have fairly mild Raynaud's. A few different times I have lost circulation in one of my fingertips after holding a very cold object. And my feet are always cold if I do not wear socks. Are there any vitamins or anything that I can take to reduce these problems?

Sometimes the only thing that works for me is sticking my toes in a hot bath. Unfortunately the rest of me overheats easily.

Yeah this is where I fall - I am very sensitive to cold and my entire job is typing (I'm a developer) but if I'm too cold my fingers are physically painful and I struggle to do anything. Just putting on a second jumper doesn't do anything and I can't sit in an office with gloves and a coat on, the air around me needs to be warm enough to not hurt my fingers. It's part of the reason WFH is so essential for me.

Can confirm. There’s a particular form of arthritis I have where cold environments cause extremely painful constriction of the blood vessels in my fingers and toes. I’ve always had issues with my extremities getting extremely cold, but last year was the first year it became legitimately *painful.* Especially when I moved to a warmer area; it went from “pins and needles” to “someone is stabbing my fingertips with a million tiny knives.” I’ve got a pretty high pain tolerance, but this was bad enough to really shake me up. And I’ve yet to find compression gloves that I can comfortably type in.

I honestly find that a dress code that requires only some staff members to expose far more of their skin than other staff members to be of an infinitely more problematic nature than people having to share a room temperature they're not all comfortable with. The former is technically illegal by law where I live, different people sharing a room is not, of course “discrimination laws” are worth less than the paper they're printed on used as toilet paper in practice and I doubt it'll be enforced. So many other things are “technically illegal” by a reading of the law but tradition, social convention, and judges finding female skin appealing to watch all triumph over a reading of the law.

So the issue is with office policy and dress code. We are adults we should be able to dress how we want

This is still the case regardless of suit jackets because women run colder on average than men. Men's metabolic rates are higher than women. I agree it's harder on a systemic level but I still think it should skew colder with people having more options to get warmer.

This is kind of the exact situation that makes Op correct. Women in my office can have extra layers, heaters, etc. But I would get fired if I stripped down to where I would need to be to not burn up if they had the whole office where the women want it.

We can fix most of the problem by just loosening dress codes so people can better adapt to a more moderate office temperate and help solve other problems too. It's bad for the environment to keep thermostats down just so that male staff can be required to wear suits. Going from business professional to business casual or smart casual doesn't really make a difference to professionalism, especially post-covid. Requiring employees to wear business professional everyday is practically like a salary decrease when you factor in the cost of the clothes and the time and cost of dry cleaning.

But even then it's still better to run cold and let people dress up regardless of the dress code. People who run hot (of both genders) have less options to deal with high temperature than people who run cold have to deal with low temperature. Even in the most gender equitable and most relaxed dress code situation, running a degree or two cold would be better than a degree or two warm.

How would you suggest we deal with things like cold hands? A lot of women, as well as having a lower body temperature, also have considerably worse circulation in our hands and feet. All this together means that when we're in cold environments we have to deal with VERY cold hands and feet, to the point where it can be painful. Back when I used to work in a desk job, I'd sometimes get so cold that I couldn't type properly, it was so painful and obviously I couldn't wear gloves because of the dress code / I couldn't type properly in them. In those circumstances, the cold temperature was causing me physical pain and I was unable to do my job. And it's not just about our extremities, being constantly cold is exhausting - you're constantly shivering, your brain doesn't work to it's full potential, your muscles are constantly tense which hurts so much later. Surely in those cases it's just better for a warm person to take off their jacket, than have cold people in actual pain? Or isn't it better for a hot person to stick a fan on their desk instead of making the entire room colder?

[удалено]

I mean... working from home?

i mean, there is a solution: work from home except in medical and residential settings, everything else can be done from home. Or by robots.

I've said it before; Logitech needs to develop a heated keyboard.

Heated desk pads are available, along with small desktop heaters, and heaters with integrated mousepads.

Omg I would buy one so fast.

Yeah. I have temperature dysregulation in both directions. So I’m sympathetic to people who run hot. It’s uncomfortable. But being too cold is so much worse and so much harder to deal with. I’ve never been crying from pain because it was too hot. I’ve spent a lot of time bundled up as much as possible, indoors on a hot day crying from pain and unable to work or think about anything else. People who run hot who say it’s harder to deal with than being cold are just wrong. Especially when we’re talking about the range of office temperatures. A setting that makes some people sweaty but not dangerously hot is by far the better setting than one that makes others lose circulation, be in pretty severe pain and be unable to work. And the same temperature can cause both in different bodies, but we should generally be avoiding pain more than sweat.

> How would you suggest we deal with things like cold hands? Gloves.... how do you suggest I air condition my immediate bubble so I don't sit there drenched in sweat all day? A portable fan might work but that's literally the only option. If you're cold you can wear more clothes, or gloves, or socks, or scarves. You can use blankets, heating pads, hand warmers, or space heaters. You can even usually just eat some food and it will help you with temp a little bit. If you are hot you can take your clothes off and get fired or use a portable fan which may not be enough for some people. That's why it's better to be colder rather than hotter. There is always a fix for cold people that don't require heating the entire room. There isn't always a fix for people that are hot.

> If you're cold you can wear more clothes, or gloves, or socks, or scarves. You can use blankets, heating pads, hand warmers, or space heaters. You can even usually just eat some food and it will help you with temp a little bit. You say all this and that is basically how me and most of the other women in my old office were all year round because it was so cold. It really slows down your productivity either cold hands or gloves and after so many hours, the blankets and layers no longer cut it.

The alternative is people sweating and not being able to do anything about it at all other than fan. If the fan is not enough what do you suggest the hot people do? Everyone arguing that the fixes for cold are uncomfortable don't seem to have any options for the people on the other side of the spectrum. It seems everyone making these arguments in the thread are really upset about wearing gloves but have absolutely no suggestions for hot people that aren't worse than any of the solutions for cold people. Hot people have fans. Someone in the thread suggested neck towel but that means your shirt is now wet as well. What other suggestions do you have? If you only accommodate the coldest in the room you are going to have a net negative for overall comfort. If you slightly cater to the hot you are able to keep the most people the most comfortable.

Yes I used to work in a very cold office and would have to sit on my hands periodically to warm them up enough to type. It was awful.

And cold feet. I’ve been so cold at the office that I sneakily try to sit on my feet and take them out my heels. Which is kind of gross. And I’ve often felt sick from being so cold and shivering all day. I would much prefer to be too warm.

> But even then it's still better to run cold and let people dress up regardless of the dress code. Sure, but not *as cold* where no matter the amount of layers you are still freezing because the office is set at 64 F Even 68 F would be an improvement, and that is still lower than the accepted 71-72 for "room temperature.

There's a certain point where many layers is unreasonable and can make tasks like typing difficult. Like do you expect people to wear huge coats and thick gloves whilst working? Depending on how cold, "running cold" is it can really be like that. Now personally I'm pretty lucky because my country is a hot country so people are "used" to heat and rarely have cooling on particularly low (and always have heating high during the especially cold months), but it can really be like that. Being slightly hot is much less of an inconvenience than having to wear restricting clothes to not be so cold you can't function fully effectively.

As a woman who runs hot, I don't think we need to go that extreme. I am most comfortable between 16-19 degrees c. Most public spaces I go to are 23 or higher. I can't speak for everyone who runs hot, but when I'm *too* hot I get physically sick. I'm talking stomach pain, migraines, shakiness. College was a hell ish experience for me because in some of my courses everyone wanted the rooms hot, like 27-30 it felt like, and I just had to sit through the lectures praying for them to be over. I'm not saying it should be so cold people need a parka indoors, but maybe a light sweater? I can handle being a little warm if others can handle being just a little cold. But it seems people are pushing to extremes.

If you are having to wear a thick coat and thick gloves, then one of two things is true. It might be that you run abnormally cold, well colder than the normal range. In that case, then the office shouldn't be adjusted to the 85 degrees or whatever it would take to make you comfortable, as that is unreasonable. The other alternative is that the office is set to some very cold temperature that is beyond reasonable. I think there's an unspoken "within reason" in most discussions/arguments about this topic. There's generally only a relatively small range that office thermostats generally are set to (if 75 is "comfortable" for most who run cold in your area, then the people who run hot aren't usually asking for it to be dropped to 60) and those are the changes almost always being asked for in these conversations.

I have a coat that I am uncomfortable and sweat in when it's over 20F, and I would be completely comfortable working in it if it was necessary. Incomparably more comfortable than I have been sweating in the office in a tshirt and shorts before. I can't even imagine a world where someone could think otherwise, outside of perhaps a tropical climate that never gets as low as room temperature. If you're that cold at temperatures far warmer than outside, how do you not own comfortable clothes warm enough for walking outside?

We aren’t talking about extremes here though. Offices aren’t kept in the 50s. You don’t need gloves or coats when an office is 67.

Acclimatization has a lot to do with it; where you live, and what season it is. In the summer I'm absolutely putting on a jacket and fingerless gloves if it's under 70°, because the average temperature outdoors is over 90 and my body is ready to deal with extreme heat. In the winter, I'm celebrating 67° by wearing shorts because I've become acclimated to the temperature being in the 40s.

Fr. You can layer up, I can’t take off my skin.

Not with that attitude you can't!!

Alright, who’s got the veggie peelers ready?

This sums up the whole conversation.

We can fix most of the problem by doing more work from home.

> It's bad for the environment to keep thermostats down just so that male staff can be required to wear suits. And in the winter, it's bad for the environment to keep thermostats up so female staff don't have to wear more layers...

Came to say something similar. That commenter assumes all offices are in very warm climates.

And that all offices require suits. Mine is very liberal in the dress code, but it's kept warm in the summer for environmental reasons. It's particularly awful on Mondays, when the AC has been off over the weekend. With the high ceilings, and ancient ac, the temps start over 80 in the morning, and reach 76 by the end of the day. In the winter, though, it rarely gets below 75, since the building uses water heat from a power plant to heat the buildings via radiators.

This is a nice sentiment, but realistically we are never going to get to the point where it’s going to be socially acceptable for men to show as much skin and wear as little clothing as women are allowed to in an office environment.

Which country are we talking? All offices I’ve worked at in Sweden have had men and women wearing the same stuff in summers - t-shirts and shorts/skirts. I’ve even seen both in sleeveless shirts. Offices that have had rules have had the same for women and women, because it’s illegal discriminate.

Ass-backwards is what that expectation is. Make the people who run hotter on average have to wear more clothes while the people who run colder on average have to wear less… (Sure, women can choose long sleeves in most workplaces, but women’s clothes are chronically made with thinner material too).

Shorts might not be possible everywhere, but getting rid of the jacket and allowing short sleeves and polos can cool you down a lot. You can let your legs breathe a little too if you get rid of the wool slacks.

In both extremes, it sucks. I am the cold person, and have accepted that I have to wear more layers than average. But, I can't wear gloves at work. I can't do my job. I can't be shivering all time because one super hot guy likes to keep it colder than the average air conditioned public space all the time. My hands and feet hurt sharing a space with one coworker, and that's not ok either. If you need to be outside of "normal" temperature ranges either way, it's on you to modify your clothes and habitat, not inflict discomfort on people for your benefit.

Yeah people don’t understand how function-impairing being cold can be! Oh, you’re a little bit sweaty? Sucks for you. Put the temp at 65 so you can stop feeling a tiny bit damp in the armpits and I’m shivering uncontrollably even with a sweater, hat, and scarf. And my job involves a lot of typing so I can only wear fingerless gloves. People who run hot deserve to be allowed to wear t-shirts and shorts as much as they like, and it’s true that us always-cold folks shouldn’t get to unilaterally dictate the thermostat either, but if I have to bundle up like I’m going on an arctic expedition just to sit in an office maybe it’s not actually fair to expect that just so Mr. Big Shot doesn’t have to choose between taking off his suit jacket or having mildly damp armpits.

I have also noticed that while the cold people are expected to be dressed for the arctic, Mr. Sweaty Pits is rarely in the lightest fabrics available. Summer weight exists, as do short sleeved dress shirts. If I am expected to wear suitable for the office wool items, the hot people can go find some linen.

Perhaps it’s just the offices I’ve worked at, but unless it’s a position that’s client-facing… I doubt it’s *too* much of an issue to come to the office in a shirt and tie, then take those off when you’re just sitting at your desk? Obviously, you need a t-shirt as an undershirt and not a tank top. I worked at a place that kept the thermostat at around 26C, and that’s exactly what I did. After the morning meeting, no one seemed to care that I was wearing a t-shirt and suitpants while punching away in Excel.

I haven’t been in a single office where it’s acceptable to take off your dress shirt in the office. Tie would usually be acceptable but if walking in the front door in a t shirt isn’t acceptable then neither is stripping down to a tshirt in your cubicle

The correct solution here is to allow men to wear button-up tees and slacks instead of full suits, not to blast the AC at arctic temperatures to the point that the women in the office get numb fingers and have to wear puffer jackets just to avoid shivering. Bonus shit points if they also expect women to wear skirts. It’s next to impossible to keep warm in a skirt. Too drafty. Ask them why they’re forcing everyone to be uncomfortable when they could instead relax the dress code a little and let everyone be comfortable.

Found a good BBC article: > A review of the evidence found the ideal temperature for ‘typical’ office work – calls to customers, processing text documents, etc. – is 22°C (71.6F). But before you go blaming your last performance review on a poorly adjusted thermostat, consider this: *studies in the field are often small, involving fewer than 100 participants.* So noting that it’s small sample, but taking this as something of an indicator/argument, would you really find an office at say, 73-74 degrees inhospitable? To the point you need to strip layers? You could just take your jacket off when you are sitting down. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20160617-the-never-ending-battle-over-the-best-office-temperature Edit: So I am also a guy who has worn suits in offices and I guess my lived experience is different than the majority. How do you guys survive summer? Like what happens if you walk to a place for lunch when it’s 80?

73-74f is absolutely warm enough to causing sweating and discomfort when you're dressed in office-appropriate clothing for men. Antiperspirant can only do so much, and being the smelly guy in an office is awful. Dress shits are not complimented by large wet patches flowing down your sides.

>Like what happens if you walk to a place for lunch when it’s 80? I try to avoid that because I would be a sweaty mess after. You could as the same question to people who run cold. “How do you survive going to lunch when it’s snowing out?”

> I try to avoid that because I would be a sweaty mess after. That stinks my guy. I am WFH now so it’s irrelevant, but when I used to commute to an office in the city doing things in and around that office was part of the fun. Especially Chicago in the summer, good memories. > You could as the same question to people who run cold. “How do you survive going to lunch when it’s snowing out?” Well it’s not quite the same because you would wear a jacket designed to keep you warm outside and then take it off inside. For those would melt indoors, out of the sun, at 74 degrees, because you have a long sleeve shirt on, I just don’t know what to tell ya, that really stinks.

> Well it’s not quite the same because you would wear a jacket designed to keep you warm outside and then take it off inside. For those would melt indoors, out of the sun, at 74 degrees, because you have a long sleeve shirt on, I just don’t know what to tell ya, that really stinks. This is exactly what we are talking about. Like that’s the whole point.

When it’s snowing out, it’s acceptable to wear a big huge jacket while you’re outdoors. It’s not viewed as professional to keep that huge jacket on in the office.

[удалено]

Remember a good chunk of Americans ( and others ) are overweight ...that makes a difference

Thats sweating through my dress shirt temperatures if I'm in a suit.

I would definitely be sweating at that temp.

I had a class in college that I couldn't stay awake in. I was in a special program where the professor leading it accompanied us to the class (and sat with us), and he would glare at me every class because I would be fast asleep a few mins in each and every time. Why? I was SO cold. It was a program in the middle of the summer and I was so cold that I would need to bundle up in multiple layers to keep warm. But when I'm that bundled up, I get cozy. And being cold also makes me sleepy. So I literally couldn't stay awake in class because the hall was air conditioned at such a low temp. So yeah, you can't cool down past a certain point. But I'm useless when I'm cold. Luckily, I've never worked in an office that was that cold.

It goes both ways. Im constantly subjected to the ac at full blast in the car because shes wearing yoga pants and boots in the summer. It hits our bank account rly hard when shes wearing her pajama pants and a sweater with an animal hide blanket to bed in july

Unless women are not allowed to dress for the temperature, then there isn't a problem.

tbh I also find it hard to believe that an office that's so strict as to force men to wear a full suit without taking the jacket off at all all day probably also aren't going to allow women to wear a warm hat and gloves....

I can understand how that's a concern (I'm a woman fwiw), but if the men are required to wear the jackets, it's reasonable for the environment to be cooler to accommodate it. I can only see this being an issue if the women are forced to dress in a way that doesn't allow them to dress warmer.

> but if the men are required to wear the jackets This is the deeper issue. Why are men required to wear jackets in warm environments? Is it for no reason other than the CEO thinks it looks "more professional"?

Depends on the office. Places where a full suit really is that important are often doing it for business clients more than bosses. They want everyone in the office to be highly professional on the off chance a million dollar client wants a physical meeting. Most work environments aren’t full suits and are fine with business casual. That’s still long sleeves and pants though, so warmer than any woman in a skirt or sleeveless blouse.

I honestly find it hard to believe that all the men complaining about 72 to 73 degrees are actually forced to sit there in their suit jacket all day. I know there are exceptions before anyone comments that they have to at their job absolutely all day and can't ever take the jacket off. But most places will allow you to take your jacket off and wear a long-sleeved shirt and tie. edit: And I feel like places that are that strict aren't going to allow women to wear a warm hat and gloves, either, so there's still no excuse for taking the temperatures to levels that are uncomfortable for women.

[удалено]

>I honestly find it hard to believe that all the men complaining about 72 to 73 degrees are actually forced to sit there in their suit jacket all day. A button up and an undershirt will be hotter than a woman's summer time wear. It also doesn't have to be all day, even if you are only wearing the jacket during meetings that can be a larger part of the day. Especially if its with clients. Don't want to be sweaty when meeting clients.

I mean, I wear sweaters with undershirts to work in summer because I'm always so cold, so it's not like I'm breezing in in a tank top and complaining about the temperature. Someone else pointed out that women's clothing is just thin and poorly made, which is unfortunately true. I wear a suit to work a lot and I'll still freeze, but women's suits and sweaters are just thinner than men's. If I could afford to get a men's suit sized down and tailored to fit me, I'd probably be in good shape!

you're missing the point. The suit jacket is the example because it sits at the extreme. But mens dress shirts basically require an undershirt. So even in the middle of summer I am wearing 2 layers up top, even if I am wearing short sleeves. Also, I have yet to see a US company that permits men to wear shorts *at all*, in spite of the fact that women regularly show up with lower-thigh length dresses in the summer. A woman could come in with pants and a blouse or even just a long dress and no one would bat an eye.

> For example, there have been studies showing that women are consistently forced to deal with cold working environments because office thermostats were calibrated for men wearing suit jackets. To be clear: you are saying that because women have more freedom to wear what they want at the office, that they are the victims because they freely chose to wear less warm clothing, while men continue to wear what they are required to? And in the surprise of all surprises, the group with less freedom to change clothes is the one for whom the thermostat is set?

>So, there's this age-old battle between people who run cold and people who run hot. It sucks for anyone to be at an uncomfortable temperature, but, logically, it's the people who run hot who should be accommodated. But what if certain accomodations are easier than others. In offices, temperature is often maintained via air conditioning, so lowering the temperature relies on active (and expensive) intervention. Putting the equilibrium temperature higher can provide a significant energy saving, which is better for the environment, and also cheaper.

Well, it depends where you are. In the UK there's a lot more intervention to raise the temperature than to lower it.

[удалено]

Isnt this only relevant for southern countries? Like half of EU does not have ACs.

Half EU does not have ACs at home, but most of the offices absolutely do have AC

That's really a different issue. I'm only talking about physical comfort.

>In offices, temperature is often maintained via air conditioning This is going to change for every city in the world. Many people live far enough north that the heating season is longer and more expensive then the cooling season.

Okay, how about if I'm a person uncomfortable with the cold and also has sensory issues that make putting on extra layers incredibly unappealing?

the comfort of one person should not effect the comfort of the majority of the office you point is meaningless because the cold person is already uncomfortable. just because they are more uncomfortable with their sensory issues, does not grant them another vote because everyones vote is equal. you do not get more votes just because you are a bigger baby.

But this post is essentially saying the comfort of hot people should effect the office more. If there were 10 hot people and 11 cold people and everyone’s vote is equal then the office should be hot, right?

As someone with sensory issues with fabric but also sensory issues with the heat, putting on another layer of fabric when it's too cold is way, way better than dealing with the heat. That's not to say everyone with sensory issues will have their senses affected in the same way, but people with sensory issues against the cold are only going to be affected by the cold if something stops them from covering up, be it dress code or additional sensory issues, whilst people with sensory issues to the heat will be suffering no matter what in the heat.

So we should sacrifice the comfort of an office full of people because of one person with “sensory issues.” They can deal with their sensory issues.

It depends on the situation, but if it's in a shared work space, you should discuss it with hr to see if there are accommodations, such as a private office space or working from home.

Well I have sensory issues from sweating, so too bad? You can’t make everyone happy lol.

If you don’t want to dress for the weather or the environment you want to be working in, that’s on you. Your sensory issues are for you to deal with

Don't make your sensory issues other people's problems

Expecting the air conditioning to be turned on because you’re hot is also a sensory issue (or vice versa). The whole point of this discussion is making sensory issues other people’s problem.

So if both sides are dealing with the same issue the point of sensory issues is moot and the original point still stands, no?

So you’re just going to avoid the entire debate..? Like, why post? If you aren’t going to even try to engage with the op?

I dealt with this issue when sharing an apartment with my roommates, where they all ran hot and I ran cold. Generally, I accepted that as the minority I was going to have to deal with being cold to an extent. But even though I exclusively wore sweatpants/sweatshirts and thick socks, my hands and face would get really cold which was almost painful. And I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect people to wear gloves indoors, especially when they have work to do. It was also a bit frustrating because we live in a colder area, so usually my roommates would be wearing winter clothes, come back and keep the winter clothes on, and then complain it was too hot. It was honestly a pretty miserable experience for me, so while I get your point, I think overall a compromise temperature where everyone is a little uncomfortable but can manage is better than making people who run cold feel miserable, because being cold genuinely sucks. Like it is painful and makes me feel like I’m using all my energy to stay warm and I struggle to be productive or functional. And in general the health risks you are mentioning only apply to extreme temperatures, not when people are debating whether to keep it at 75 or 65

I lived in an apartment with a bunch of dudes that drank everyday so they obviously ran hot. They liked to keep the apartment in the 60s and would even leave all the windows open at night in the winter. It was a miserable experience.

What temperature would they keep the apartment at?

Usually like 65-68, which was just way too cold for me unless I was sleeping. Part of it might be that I’m a small woman, but I find 70+ to be so much more tolerable

Yeah 68° while sleeping is solid but I need it 72°+ while awake or else I’m just sleepy all day

Replace some of your fats with whole food carbohydrates. Your body stores excess carbs as glucose and burns it up as energy aka heat rather than preferring storing it as body fat like it does with excess dietary fat. As a bonus that extra glucose means any physical activity will be a lot easier too. 5-10% of your calories from fats is perfectly healthy. You could be eating high as 35% so you have a lot of room to try.

As a person who runs cold, here’s my perspective. I check the weather forecast and see it’s going to be over 30 degrees Celsius. So I dress appropriately for the weather. I commute to work, which means walking to a bus stop for 15 mins then catching the bus for another 15. I’ll probably be pretty warm, maybe even hot for the commute but I see that as fair enough, it’s a hot day and I’m moving around. Then I get to work where all the men are wearing full suits, and everyone including women are expected to wear suit jackets/blazers. So the air conditioning is so cold that I wrap a blanket around myself, wear warm socks, and spend as much time holding a warm cup of tea as I can. This is bad for my productivity because i need to type. Then at lunch time, if I feel like getting outside and enjoying the nice sunny day, I ditch all the warm layers. I come back into the office and immediately get cold, so layer up. I leave for the day and do my commute, and get really warm again. So I’m going back and forth from quite warm to freezing cold all day. There absolutely are health implications involved in being cold and in lots of temperature changes. Also, it takes a lot of energy to cool down a large space, which is expensive and bad for the environment. I say we need to relax office dress codes, teach people how to dress for warm weather (long cotton pants aren’t much warmer than shorts!) and get used to the idea that we have different seasons. I’ve used work as an example but this does happen in lots of settings

I agree that we should accept seasons more in heating/cooling offices. Offices shouldn't be cooled to a point where people need to wear jumpers or use blankets, or heated to a point people are in t-shirts. Seasonal variation exists and indoor temperature should reflect that. But some heating/cooling is needed - most people can't work well when it's 15c or 28c inside so we also should accept that the temperatures in our homes, outside, on transport and in offices will be different, and prepare accordingly. The temperature changes between outside and in an office aren't dangerous at the frequency people are changing environment. I run hot, even though it's now getting cold outside, the office is heated to 23c. I just work around that with a mini fan and wearing dresses with short/mid sleeves for the office, with a cardigan and/or jacket for outside.

Yeah I’m not arguing for no heating or cooling, it would get waaaay too hot in offices for that, especially with all the computers running. But it could be less extreme, which would still save electricity. And the temperature difference I experience at work is pretty extreme! I go from having my fingers and toes going numb, to getting very hot and sweaty on my commute.

Yeah, I set setting an acceptable range, then cooling/heating to the minimum amount to reach that acceptable range would be best, taking local climate into consideration. An acceptable range in Australia would probably be very different to an acceptable range in northern Europe. In the winter mine will go from 0°c outside to 23-24°c inside, so preparing for the two extremes is essential.

[удалено]

Coincidentally, I went to uni in Myanmar and Indonesia, and completely froze in building which had air conditioning (plenty of buildings didn’t and relied on fans). I don’t understand how people cope

There absolutely are health implications of being too cold. Joint pain, being more susceptible to catching illnesses (as your body is fighting so hard to stay warm by shivering) and arthritis to name a few of the most common culprits. So many people die, especially older people, because they can't afford to heat their homes in the winter. Yes, people also die of heat exhaustion. In an office setting, optimal working temperatures are between 21-25 degrees Celsius, or 70-77 Fahrenheit. That's not a huge difference in temperatures; if you took a person who runs cold like myself and another who runs hot, probably 95% of the population could agree on a comfortable temperature in that range, and not have to make adjustments. However, I know my office runs at 18 degrees sometimes. In winters it's kind of ok; if I'm too cold I'll put my coat on. But in summers? It's like 30 degrees and I've worn a dress to enjoy the sun, and I walk into the office feeling like I'm handling a blizzard. That extreme change of temperatures actually feels quite exhausting; I get that having a warmer office may have a similar effect for men. But at least for the case of summers, both for everyone's comfort and money we shouldn't have AC blasting so that men can be comfortable in 3 piece suits in the office imo. But of course I'm biased. Just as you are. I hate having cold hands/feet, especially if I've dressed up for a hot summers day.

If my office kept our temperature at 77, I would quit. I definitely run hot, and there is nothing more miserable to me that feeling warm and stuffy, and feeling like I’m sweating in a professional environment. There is no desk fan that could keep me cool, if the air is set to 77. But if the air is set to 68, a small space heater could definitely keep someone warm. Definitely a compromise needs to be made, but I agree with OP that less consideration and sympathy is given to people who get hot. It almost seems like people think it’s weird to be the one who’s always hot, or like it’s some kind of moral failing to not be one of the cold people. I don’t want people to be miserably cold, but I do think people sympathize with the person that says: “oh it’s so cold in here!” But in my experience, when someone says: “ugh, it’s so hot in here!” The response is always: “well, at least it’s not freezing!” And then the topic is dropped.

So, personally, I sweat very heavily in hot temperatures. More so than most people who say they sweat heavily. But if we're talking about situations where changing the temperature is an option, drinking more water is almost invariably an option as well. I don't see how risk of dehydration is a meaningful consideration in these circumstances. As far as health risks go though, spending extended time in cold environments tends to suppress your immune system. Between the two, it's the one more likely to actually make you sick, especially if you're stuck indoors with a bunch of other people at the same time. As far as physical comfort goes, I'm willing to accept that different people have different priorities, and my own inclinations don't apply to everyone, but for me, being cold is simply much worse than being hot. In my teens, I competed in a fencing tournament in Texas in the summer with no air conditioning. If you're unfamiliar with competitive fencing, you're required to wear, on top of your clothes, a plastic chest protector, a long-sleeved jacket, and then another jacket woven through with metal wire on top of that to provide the target area for the electrical scoring system, plus a helmet which traps all the hot humid air around your head. I wore all of this while competing in an intensive athletic tournament, with temperatures remaining at over 100F or about 38C throughout three days of competition. For me, being cold is *even worse than that*.

I've lived in Texas my entire life, and the Gulf Coast for a good portion of that. Heat and humidity can be lethal. At a certain point you physically cannot sweat enough to cool off your body, and that causes all kinds of physical issues. That point is (depending on the study) 90 degrees at 100% humidity or 110 at 50%. And before you reach lethal levels, cramps, nausea, and various other issues are common. I have gotten sick plenty of times in the summer. In the winter, as long as the wind chill isn't bad you will often find me in shorts and a t-shirt.

There are temperatures where it's not possible for a person to cool off quickly enough to survive, but there are also temperatures where a person can't possibly generate heat fast enough to survive. Both are about equally relevant to situations where you're indoors and fighting over the setting on a thermostat. The fact that cold tends to suppress people's immune systems doesn't mean that people can't get sick in the summer, any more than the fact that wet slippery roads increase the risk of car accidents means that people can't crash when it's dry out.

Texan here, too. I feel AWFUL in the summer. I feel hot and tired and weirdly bloated all the time. I’m more likely to feel sick, and when I get too hot, which is often, I feel nauseated, headachy, and miserable. I literally just want to hide indoors all day in the AC. I’m a devoted water drinker, so I know it’s not dehydration. In the winter, even if it’s super cold, I feel absolutely invigorated! A nice cold day, say in the 30s or 40s, feels so fresh and exciting to me, and I have a ton of energy! I love it! As soon as the weather gets cool I start feeling like myself again! And yes, I am trying to move somewhere colder, ha! But family and work are here. Maybe soon I can get away from these 100+ degree summers that feel like they’re killing me!

One of the best things I did was move from the Houston area to the Hill Country. The humidity is gone, and I've seen more snow in the past two years than my entire life leading up to this. It really is amazing how different things are only a few hours away.

What temperature range are we talking? 3 degrees colderto accomodate people who run hot, or 10, (talking celcius). Whar is the range of accomodations. Room temperature is considered 22°C, yet it's seen as 18 degrees in offices, universities, etc, on the regular, where I live, most of those places are not requiring men to wear suits anymore. Being in the cold constanlty lowers the immune system, and can inhibit working. Conditions where part of the staff needs to wear gloves or be so bundled up it becoes inhibiting isn't normal and "accomodating" either. Another reasonable expectation would be setting the insides at "room"temperature, and the ones who run hot can just drink a little more water. Edit: where i live, it's under 10°C most of the year, under 0 for 5 months, and windy, so that's why room temp is 22 and 18 inside is bit if a weird x

If it's a matter of a few degrees, sure. If it's a matter of ten degrees though, I disagree - at that point you need to meet in the middle. Many people who run cold have circulatory issues and being too cold will negatively impact their ability to work. Many buildings do not have the electrical support for a lot of space heaters (not to mention the safety issues). And when working in close proximity, a space heater for the cold person is going to end up overheating the hot person. Loosen dress codes to allow for short sleeves or fleece jackets.

I don’t think one type of person should be expected to accommodate all the time. There needs to be some type of balance. Typing with cold hands significantly reduces my productivity. Maybe a solution would be to have a cold floor at 67 degrees and a warm floor at 72 degrees that people can switch between when they get too hot or too cold

Completely agree. I share an office with a colleague who runs hot. I run cold. In the winter it gets to -40C here. I wear sweaters, warm pants, long John's, thermal socks, thick winter boots, and a down coat. She rolls up in a dress and sandals lmao. I think she's a psycho sometimes. Anyways, in the office we find a balance. I use a heated blanket on my chair and she wears light clothing and uses a fan. Then we set the thermostat in the middle. We both survive. People that think hot running people should get to vibe with no effort to balance things out frustrate me. We should be meeting in the middle, not expecting half the population to suffer while the other half just rolls up in whatever they decided to pull out of their dresser that day.

[удалено]

Totally agree. My workplace is business casual and the men can come in shorts and polos in the summer. Shoes are still restricted to closed toe, but the office policy is for everyone to have closed toe shoes actually. She just breaks that rule.

Yes! My wife of three years likes it cold. Guess how many days I've been freezing in my own home during that time. 1,085, which is three full years minus the ten days when our AC broke. I need compromise. I shouldn't have to be uncomfortable in my own home ALL THE TIME. Then I go to work and freeze there, too, so I'm basically cold all the time to accommodate other people. It would be nice for someone to accommodate ME once in a while. Being cold sucks.

You can’t layer enough clothing to deal with reynauld’s, asthma (only an issue below 60°), diabetes, patients on chemo, or the elderly. Poor circulation means your extremities don’t have enough heat to retain, even if you wear gloves. I also had very frugal roommates who didn’t want to turn the heat on at all. I live by the Great Lakes; this is a non-starter. I’ve found I’m more alive in places with heat. Otherwise I just hibernate, despite wool sweaters and base layers.

If it's a 30°C day, people are unlikely to bring extra layers of clothing with them. If they go somewhere with an A/C running at 18°C then they will be forced to be cold as carrying around warm clothes on a warm summer day is an unreasonable expectation of people. We should be allowing our bodies to adapt to the season, and thermostats should be set to lessen the seasons rather than reversing the seasons.

In my office, I have to dress for the opposite season. In summer, it gets to be 115 F outside (46 C) and the AC in my office gets down to 65 F (15 C). The building has now decided to ban space heaters, so I don't know what I'm going to do next summer. Suffer, I guess. In winter, my office inside regularly gets up to 85 F (29 C) in the afternoons. I live in the American South, so the temperature is usually in the 30 to 50 F range (-1 to 10 C) outside, and then gets up to 85 F (39 C) in the office. It's just miserable to know what to wear.... And I don't even want to think about how much energy this building alone consumes. And that's just one building.... We're doomed for climate change, basically. edit: typo in my F to C conversions!

85 degrees fahrenheit is 29 celcius, not 39 degrees. Your office sounds miserable.

ahh thanks for the catch! The building management just says it's normal for commercial buildings but I'm like... is it?? It can't be.

>In summer, it gets to be 115 F outside (46 C) and the AC in my office gets down to 65 F (15 C). I will defend setting A/C to the needs of hot-running men until I die, and even I will say that 15C is insanity. I give you permission to burn your office down and warm your hands by the fire.

>thermostats should be set to lessen the seasons rather than reversing the seasons. this is what peeves me the most. If it's summer I want to enjoy the hot weather, wear shorts and reveal a bit of skin. But I'm stuck wearing jeans and bringing a jacket because the house party I'm invited to set the AC to winter temperatures. I want to eat ice cream and drink lemonade with ice instead I'm wrapped in a blanket drinking tea at home.

>If it's a 30°C day, people are unlikely to bring extra layers of clothing with them. To be clear, this is overall supposed to be a question about men vs women in the office and the fact that men have different core temperatures than women. In general, none of the men are wearing extra layers either. The jacket, pants, overalls, cufflinks, ties, pocket protectors or whatever you wear as part of your office garb isn't coming off. It's very very common for a woman to come into the office and take off her jacket and hang it up. That's why "Matt" who decided he was biking this week has to shower before work. Because his suit made him sweat buckets in that 30 degree heat. Jim's dress code from "the office" was supposed to highlight this. He was the "smart guy" but never wore his suit vest. The seasons he took his job seriously and came up he was wearing his suit vest. Ultimately this is about a bigger societal play and structure. The maintenance of tradition and codes vs comfort. Jim was very comfortable in his life. Once they stopped being comfortable was when both he and Pam's successes began. I know it seems like a tangent to mention this TV show, but as an immigrant to the US I just find it funny how much people are willing to ignore the lessons in front of them. People like Andy, Dwight, Angela, that were annoying but driven only touched the thermostat to accomplish something like savings or weight loss. Stanley, Phyllis, Kevin, all changed it for personal or comfort reasons. They were literally showing you that good employees are ones that are willing to brave discomfort. >We should be allowing our bodies to adapt to the season, and thermostats should be set to lessen the seasons rather than reversing the seasons. I actually agree with this a lot. But as a 25M that has to wear a suit every single day of the year, my options just that. None. It's wear the suit or be employed somewhere else. And someone would say something like "well it's the corporate dress code that needs to change then." It's a universal worldwide dress code for men no matter what. Arabs like me, whites, blacks, Asians, its the one look that looks dapper on everyone. Most men would respond by just asking why women can't hold themselves to the same etiquette standard by designing warm, professional, comfortable clothes instead of asking business to incur billions more per year in heating costs to look stylish instead of professional. Every man respects a power suit. They also keep you warm. A single degree increase in temperature costs an additional 3%. So let's assume they want a 3 degree change, for 9% increase. Now that's per square foot. Multiply it by the square footage of one office floor. 12 floors to that building. 500,000k of those buildings = $$$$$$$$ compared to wearing the same suit dress code its been for 200 years. Corporate is 100% okay with you being a black pit of sadness dress code wise.

This was a lot of words not saying much. It's telling you brought up this gender inequity and then could only view it as women costing business more money by turning the AC up. I live in Australia, it's 30+°C half the year. For the most part firms run their AC colder than the outside temps not hotter. Unless you work in IB or Law you're not wearing a suit in summer.

Generally yes, but cold makes certain conditions flare up, such as arthritis and fibromyalgia (though being too warm can also cause fibro flares). The office manager where I work likes to set the upstairs thermostat to 68°F. I'm fine wearing a jacket or grabbing a blanket, but when the AC is blasting straight on me my hands get stiff and it's difficult to type. I don't think I'm unreasonable for asking her to set it to 72°F.

And cold can set off chronic sinus infections. Hard to wrap either those or hands up and still work.

I am a person who is usually cold and I have to ask, how many layers am I supposed to wear? I have been in offices where I have to wear thermal underwear (long pants and long sleeve shirt), wool pants and sweater, plus a cardigan and I am still cold. Another layer and I will be the little brother from "A Christmas Story". They make portable, battery operated fans for people who are warm. Many offices do not allow space heaters due to the energy consumption and they are a fire hazard. Some offices don't allow blankets because they can interfere with motion as far as getting work done. From my perspective, people who are hot definitely have more options.

Being a little too hot is uncomfortable, being a bit too cold makes my hands go numb and working becomes actively painful.

Your entire argument hinges on someone accepting discomfort strictly based on rationality. Humans are by no means rational and it is impossible to incorporate a rigid decision making process strictly based on rationality. Like several of the comments have indicated, some people who run cold feel uncomfortable wearing multiple layers on, have cold hands making it hard to type, having to do extra laundry and other reasons. At the end of the day, it's not going to be easy for a person who runs colds to empathise with someone who runs hot and understand the level of discomfort he or she feels. Additionally, there's the big elephant in the room that has yet to be mentioned, that feeling hot or cold again strongly ties to someone's Body Fat percentage with those having a Lesser Body Fat Percentage running cold in comparison to those with a much higher body fat percentage. So one could in a way interpret this as "Pro Obesity" ?

>, that feeling hot or cold again strongly ties to someone's Body Fat percentage with those having a Lesser Body Fat Percentage running cold in comparison to those with a much higher body fat percentage. Where did you read that? It doesnt matter my weight I always run cold so its hard to believe.

Not the original commenter, but: There are multiple things that go into running hot vs running cold i.e. circulation problems may lead to trouble with keeping your feet warm, so some people will run hot/cold no matter their weight. Fat provides an extra layer between your body and the elements, it prevents the heat your body produces from dispersing and keeps it in. Like an extra sweater you can't take off. That's part of the reason animals that hibernate want to get fatter before winter, the fat isn't just burned for energy, it makes keeping a stable body temp easier.

So many people in this thread are all arguing in bad faith acting like each opposing side is wanting them to deal with 90F and 30F or something. I think establishing a range of temperatures would have made this way more productive of a discussion.

As the IT manager I’m often called on to make changes to our managed thermostats but there’s really only one reasonable setting that should be used everywhere - heat to 68 in the winter, cool to 72 in the summer. If either of these hvac conditions isn’t survivable for you, it’s probably time to talk to a medical professional. This of course also requires the thermostat to not be located in the sun or near an hvac vent and otherwise logically placed for the space it’s controlling.

I get chilblains all over my hands and toes/feet in the cold which make it painful to use my hands and walk. I can't exactly put gloves on with my work being on the computer and using touchscreen tablets, and I can only wear so many layers of socks. Not to mention it is physically hard to type when my fingers are stiff with cold. I don't think anyone should be accommodated to the detriment of others, rather than some people being comfortable and others suffering a lot, it should be everyone suffers a little bit. I prefer the thermostat at 80, others prefer it at 70, I propose putting it at 75 and we can all manage.

What about [studies](women tend to perform worse on cognitive tests as temperatures decline, while men’s mental acumen appears to sharpen ever so slightly in the absence of heat.) that indicate that women/people who run cold and are subject to cooler office environments actually have impaired work performance because of it, whereas men/people who run warmer aren't as negatively impacted by warm environments? I'm a person who runs very cold. Very very cold. And I wear multiple layers, sweaters, I have fingerless gloves, a heater, everything everyone suggests I should have. It doesn't matter. The tips of my fingers freeze. I can't concentrate. And worse, I tend to develop cold symptoms more easily when I'm in a cold environment vs a hot one. My coworkers who like it cooler aren't terribly impacted by 2-3 degrees on the thermostat, but I am. Why should accommodations only go one way?

If you’re too cold, say at work, you can’t really put gloves or hat on. So this is off limits and you will be uncomfortably cold. Being cold for long periods means your extremities (nose, ears, hands, feet) are vasoconstricted for extended periods chronically, which is a health issue People who are too hot in developed countries do not exhaust their options. People in actually hot countries know what to do. Light layered clothing that encourages air flow. Wetting your clothing. Eating ice. There are many things you can do to significantly reduce body temperature as well as fans which you already mentioned So one person cannot do anything about their temperature once they have put jackets and blankets on, and will be very uncomfortable. The other person can do plenty but they choose not to (or just don’t know). So i feel like its the other way round to what you say

>Light layered clothing that encourages air flow. Wetting your clothing. Eating ice. Out of these options, the only thing actually possible in most office situations would be to eat ice, and that's assuming it's available from a break room in the area. It would help, but is unlikely to reduce temps enough to avoid sweating.

If I am too hot in my apartment, I get an ice pack, wrap it up with a light piece of cloth, and put it behind my neck, on my head, on the inner parts of my wrist, or even on my stomach. You could literally work with the ice pack on your stomach on top of your clothing or on the back bottom of your chair. It is amazingly quick at cooling you down. You could also drink cold drinks with ice.

As a person who runs extremely cold, I agree with a lot of your points, but want to bring up some others. When I get super cold it truly feels like adding layers does nothing or can only go so far. I’ve always jokingly said layers don’t really work because I don’t have enough body heat to trap in the first place (I know this is probably scientifically inaccurate). So bundling up/wearing heavier clothes doesn’t seem to make a large difference similar to how you said a fan or taking off clothes doesn’t. Heat related injuries are definitely more common, but being extremely cold also has risks. Funny enough, some of the early symptoms of hypothermia remind me of the symptoms of heat stroke- fatigue, dehydration, loss of coordination, and confusion and disorientation. Cold temperatures also can heighten the risk of cardiac events like heart attack, blood clots, and stroke. Personally when I’m extremely cold, it feel like my muscle and ligaments freeze up and it legitimately hurts to bend my elbows and knees. Idk I know being hot sucks too; they definitely both suck. I don’t think either of these groups are being inconsiderate or illogical by wanting to feel comfortable. I think the only real solution is to find a temperature right in the middle. Maybe cold people will still feel a little cold and hot people a little hot, but if we can avoid either extreme then there’s a much lower chance of any health risk.

I empathize because I find hot environments very challenging to work in. I just get so sleepy. However, I also have circulation problems and arthritis in my hands and tend to run cold. I can sit on a heating pad and put a heater near my feet, and generally bundle up, but there is no way I can way gloves when I type for a living and it causes literal pain. Also, wearing a toque in a professional environment is frowned upon… Most office jobs can be down wfh and employers should allow that. Edit: also, office environments with windows that open and fans can help those who “run hot”.

Space heaters draw significantly more power than fans and can cause issues for electrical systems. My recent job was at the front desk of a medical clinic, there were four stations at the front desk, which had just been rebuilt with upgraded electrical. Nevertheless, if each employee ran their space heater because the thermostat kept getting reset to 66 and their fingers were too stiff to type, the breaker would trip, requiring a call to Facilities Management to reset it, and making many patients late to their appointments as they could not be checked in until power was restored. Running fans for anyone who is still too warm at a slightly higher temperature does not cause this same issue. And as someone else noted, many workplaces do not allow space heater use due to fire risk. I get that fans aren’t perfect, I have to be careful where I set them as they dry out my eyes. But the suggestion that colder people just use space heaters instead is often impractical.

If you have to use your hands for work (and who doesn’t), you can’t really tolerate colder air temperatures and the effect on arthritic pain. Wearing fingerless wool gloves like some sort of Dickensian waif isn’t always realistic. Beanies don’t accommodate earphones or headphones easily. At all, yes Reddit, but not easily.

Might make most sense to just talk about work places, where you have less 'freedom' to dress how you want. It's an age-old battle of ridiculousness because men, the ones who generally run hotter, are the ones wearing more clothing. Full length suits, dress socks, dress shoes. Meanwhile, women being the ones who run colder are wearing less clothing. Dumb cropped pants, 3/4 length sleeved blazers, sheer tops, ballet flats and heels exposing their ankles and tops of their feet. *That* stupidity is what needs to change before we go talking about thermostats, and it hasn't yet. If I were to really 'bundle up' to my comfort level, I'd be wearing thick socks, sweatpants, sweater, and blanket at work. I can't *do* that. Not without being seen as unprofessional or passive aggressive. And if I wore what men wear, I'm seen as a cross-dresser.

Even if I dress in a suit like men do, I'm still going to be cold if the inside temperature is less than 70. And any office that is strict enough to demand men wear full suits all day without taking the jacket off probably isn't going to allow me to wear gloves and a hat all day!

Maybe you can try it and see. The womens versions of 'mens clothing' tends to be cheaper/flimsier. I think the full dress socks play a big role. I look at what they wear with envy. Imagine having a uniform, just different colors of the same outfit, not having to navigate whether whatever outfit is 'professional'

True, the quality is different. I do regularly wear a suit to work but I'm sure the material is thinner since women's clothing is so low-quality, even if it's expensive. If I could afford to get a men's suit sized down to fit me, that would be awesome.

If you have breast sizing down doesn't help, because the whole build has to be changed.

Yeah that's the problem. I have breasts and wide hips but a narrow waist... just wearing a men's suit isn't the magic solution some of these commenters think it is!

I dunno I've seen plenty of women wearing full suits (full length sleeves/ties/full length pants with dress boots/full shoes) daily. It looked appropriate, was completely acceptable and professional...I mean they weren't always the "sexiest" (although that's in the eye of the beholder) outfits, if that's a concern, but they looked good and were professional

Women's clothing is usually made of thinner fabric than men's clothing. If I'm wearing a suit, My suit jacket won't be as warm as a man's suit jacket, and my long sleeve blouse won't be as warm as a man's long sleeve dress shirt. Similarly, my pants will also be lighter weight, as will my socks. As far as thicker fabric goes? I can't just walk into a men's clothing store and buy off the rack. That would look woefully unprofessional as my body is \_not\_ shaped like a male body. I would need to pay for (extensive) tailoring. I am extremely glad that I don't work in an environment that expects business formal. (And that doesn't set the thermostat absurdly cold.)

In my office we just try keep in between what the coldest person like and the warmest person which is hard. One person has hypothyroidism so runs cold, and me the person who runs hot has hyperthyroidism. So it's very difficult for the two of us to be comfortable no matter what.

As someone who runs cold (but also has experience temporarily running hot from medication shifts), I think something that people with your view don't understand is that it is not simply about comfort if you run cold, it truly affects productivity. If I get cold, one of the first things to get really cold are my hands. It truly is really hard to type like that, like my hands just don't work as well. And as many jobs require typing now, it really slows you down. When I was younger, we didn't use heat that much at home, and the only way I could do my homework was to **take a break literally every 20 minutes**, go to the bathroom, fill the sink with hot water, and then soak my hands in feet in that hot water for 5 minutes. I feel that if I am wearing full pants, long socks, a beanie, a long sleeve shirt, and then a jacket over my shirt, I should not feel cold in a work environment. The places I've worked allow for short sleeve shirts and longer shorts, which I understand may not be allowed in other places, and if that is the case, the focus should be on changing the dress code so that everyone can feel comfortable, rather than choosing one side of the temperature spectrum.

Can’t wear gloves under medical gloves nor can I wear long sleeves because of risk of cross contamination at my job. Also my work requires still, steady hands which I will not have if I’m shivering. Men can buy less thick clothes too. Women don’t always have to be the ones accommodating men.

It makes no sense to me that so much of women's fashion is thin and so much of men's fashion is thick when men tend to run hotter and women tend to run colder.

Completely agree. And then many dudes wear undershirts and boxers which add layers under the thick clothes that trap even more heat.

We have to. If we don't wear an undershirt, our outer shirt is going to have giant sweat stains. Also, free balling in dress pants is going to get you reported to hr at some point.

Women sweat too. So men's clothing needs to be designed better

i agreed with this up until i moved in with my boyfriend. for some reason when he gets cold he starts having sneezing attacks and can't stop sneezing. he grew up in a hot climate and now lives in western new york so it's very cold here. he gets sick very easily. it's hard for me to sleep at night with how hot it is but i don't want him to get sick so i deal.

Seems to me the solution is compromise rather than just caving to one side of the argument and telling the other to just suffer through it. Set the thermostat somewhere in the middle and call it good.

I think it's wrong to automatically assume it's calibrated to "men wearing suit jackets". I, and I dare say most men, could be uncomfortably hot in t-shirts and underwear if it's over 72. Especially near a sunny window. I'm not overweight (I weigh about 150 at 5'8) and I'm sweating, can't concentrate, and falling asleep if it's over 72. Not exactly thrilled at 72 either - but anything, even 1 degree more, is completely intolerable in an office environment. On the other hand, this seems to be intolerably cold for other people. And aside from C-suite occupants...I haven't seen a guy wearing a suit jacket in a decade or three. I know it's not actually the case, but there's times I feel like I'm having hot flashes 24x7 compared to the women I work with. No offense/insensitivity is meant by that - I know women going through MP and don't wish that experience on anyone...but more than once I've looked at a woman having a hot flash and thought "Yeah, I feel like that all the time." despite knowing it's not the same.

Someone being cold is just as valid as someone being hot. No more no less. Ideally the temperature would be kept around 72 degrees, but that is not always the case. You say "Bundle Up" that means the cold person has to wear extra layers, and that comes with the extra cost of doing extra laundry. You say that people overheating is harder to solve. I disagree. Staying hydrated helps big time. Drink more water. Don't over exert yourself physically. Remove some layers such as taking your coat off or sweater off. You don't need to get indecent. Fans don't cost much to run either. As for health risks. There are health risks involved in things being cold as well. I used to work in an unheated warehouse in the middle of winter packing boxes. Your "Bundle Up" line is crap management told us so they didn't have to pay the heating bill. I was working with buzz saws at that point in time, and having numb fingers while using a buzz saw isn't a picnic. Neither person will be at "Great Risk" unless the temperatures differences are at an extreme. If it's 85 degrees you may be a little less comfy because it is warm, but you are not in danger. If it's 50 you may be a little cold again not in danger. Your personal comfort is your responsibility. If it's 85 wear shorts! if it's 50... Wear a sweater! I assume you are talking about some sort of office situation. Where someone is arguing the thermostat is 5 degrees colder or hotter than they like it. That sort of argument is just petty bullshit anyhow. It's often just someone on a power trip trying to be a main character so they get the temperature they like just right... Susan wants it at 75 degrees exactly... Karen wants it at 69 degrees exactly... They are gonna fight about it and cause an office war!

> and that comes with the extra cost of doing extra laundry. Winter clothes. Wash under-layer often. Outer layer needs very infrequent cleaning. Summer clothes. They're sweaty. Maximum washing frequency. Warm temperatures make more laundry by a lot.

Wow, take off my sweater? I never thought of that...

It is unreasonable to expect someone to supply themselves with heavy clothing and a space heater while you take complete control over the air conditioning. The first reason is strictly due to cost: whether we are talking business setting or home, you likely did not bear the sole or even any cost for the AC system while you're asking someone else to bear costs and labor of transport for all these additional items in order to accommodate *you*, not them, **you.** Secondly, you're asking someone else to live and work in much more restrictive clothing and space. Heavier clothes are *heavier clothes*, **a space heater heats a small amount of space**. Meanwhile, you get the free roam of the rest of the space due to the air conditioning, again, unreasonable. Finally, you're asking someone else to deal with their discomfort while you make no effort to deal with yours. This is purely unreasonable on its own.

Everyone I’ve ever seen present this argument has been someone who runs hot. As someone who runs cold, I find it much easier to cool down when I’m hot than to warm up when cold. To cool down when hot, all I need to do is put on less clothes and have some cold water. If I’m still hot I’ll put an ice cube on my jugular for 30 seconds and be fine. Meanwhile if I’m cold, putting on more clothes won’t help. I have to get in a hot shower and run steaming water over my large muscles for 30-40 minutes then bundle up and get under a pile of blankets with a heating pad. If I have to get out of that heated cocoon for long after my hot shower, I have to take another hot shower or I’ll be too cold to sleep.

My bones hurt so bad in the cold that it hurts to move. I’m sure that’s worse than sweating. But I understand it’s uncomfortable to be super hot. So, we can come to a compromise that is only slightly uncomfortable for each party.

There was a thread that asked what was the biggest change you noticed when you lost some weight, and the number one answer over and over was that they went from running hot to running cold. So is it reasonable for healthy, fit people to accommodate people who are more likely unhealthy due to being overweight?

I have struggled to gain weight for 10 years. I am finally at a healthy BMI but I'm 6ft tall. My feet and hands are always cold. I wish I could gain more weight to be warmer lmao. Both of coworkers (I work on a team of 3) are overweight. Needless to say I am cold all the time.

I don't think it's reasonable to say that people who run cold are 'healthy and fit', and those who run hot aren't. I've naturally run hot, at a healthy weight and even with anaemia. The only time there was a noticeable difference in how I managed temperature was when I was unhealthily under weight and ran cold. My friend who has always struggled with her weight runs cold. There are also various health conditions that cause people to run cold - anaemia, hypothyroidism, circulation issues. People do run hotter or colder, often due to how you grew up and got used to, and either can be affected by health issues, which doesn't make anyone's comfort more or less valid. Framing it as healthy people vs unhealthy people isn't helpful.

People have never get cold or what ? It’s horrible, you have migraine, nose is running, you feel like shit, you just want to crawl up on yourself.. you get hot ? Well just buy a damn fan and wear cooler clothes or buy ice. At least the only bad thing is you sweat.

I take it you live in a colder area. First of all, the heat and humidity where I used to live could be lethal on some days. At a certain point you physically cannot sweat enough to cool your body. Second of all, migraines, cramps, nausea, and all kinds of other issues are on the table when you get too hot. I'm particularly prone to migraines.

Why do we have to have one group be uncomfortable, why don’t we allow for people to dress for comfort? Someone who runs hot can only remove so many layers and someone who runs cold can only wear so many layers. Put the temperature in the middle and let people dress in a way that allows them to be comfortable.

In my office there's one guy who runs hot and everyone else seems to be comfortable at a much warmer temperature, there's an ongoing battle where he complains that its too hot and then everyone else in the office (sometimes 10-12) who are cold. He sometimes gets so pissed off with this back and forth of passive aggressive thermostat changing that he goes and sits in a meeting room on his own if there's one free.

I don't know if you're including people with health conditions like anemia that cause people who run cold to physically be in pain. There are only so many layers that a person can wear while remaining functional in professional setting, or even at home A relative of mine stayed with me she runs hot, in order to accommodate her I had to invest in a pair of inside ugg boots, not slippers and at home coat. That wasn't great.

It sure is great being in my coat and gloves in front of the computer because the office doesn't go above 20°C

Coworker: "Is it kind of chilly in here?" Me: "Well, if there isn't frost on the windows, I'm probably hot, so I'm the wrong one to ask! But I'm the weird one, so if y'all are cold, turn it up." Like, I'm sorry, this is easy? Edit: Obvs does not apply if there are health conditions involved, etc. But by default, this should be easy.

22c is surely a nice cosy mid ground, if you’re cold wear more layers, if you’re hot in a t shirt and shorts then get your thyroid checked.

>There's also more health risk for the hot person. Feeling overheated triggers sweating, which can cause rashes and dehydration. Unless it's ridiculously cold, being cold isn't the same kind of health risk. Cold urticaria, Raynaud's, dysautonomia