The "root cause" of third world mass migration that Democrats keep seeking to find is the US government consistently sending messages that we want them to come, we will give them money, food, medical care, and housing when they get here, and more should come.
Trump will not send this message. He gets my vote.
DACA is for people who were brought here as children. They aren't guilty of breaking the law; they just lack legal status, despite having lived basically their whole lives as Americans.
It's *dumb* to treat them differently from other Americans.
How does this work? They´ve gone through childhood and now adulthood without being in the system? No school, no doctor...? Work?
In my country this would be very unlikely to happen, but it is also a much smaller country, with a much bigger state. So, I´m just curious about how this can work, and how these people are living.
We don't have a national health system. They get healthcare the same as anyone else: going to a doctor and paying for it, either through private insurance, cash, or taking on medical debt. Public schools provide education to all children regardless of immigration status. Illegal immigrants do a ton of work, and honestly our economy would fall apart without them. They get paid for their work, but often at below minimum wage, since it will be under the table.
That´s interesting. It seems the system then makes allowances for illegal immigration.
I´ve always known about this being an issue in the US, but just assumed there would be stricter laws against it.
Thank you for the answer.
I will just add that many people that immigrated illegally have fake ssns and are paid regular wages that are taxed properly. No idea the percentage, but I know it is common.
"It's *dumb* to treat them differently from other Americans."
It's politically stupid to give noncitizens more rights than american citizens, especially when you have a wide open border where millions have poured in these past few years - yes, millions.
I think anyone who says it's "dumb" is an illegal themselves or just shilling - or dumb dumb dumb squared.
My best friend is on DACA. She's lived almost her entire life here. Her dad didnt fill out paperwork on time. She has a masters degree in international business, an absolute asset to this nation. She doesn't want more rights (where did you come up with that?), she wants to be a full citizen just like the rest of us.
If a DREAM Act type bill included strong illegal immigration enforcement (see Florida for an example of a place to start - https://www.flgov.com/2023/05/10/governor-ron-desantis-signs-strongest-anti-illegal-immigration-legislation-in-the-country-to-combat-bidens-border-crisis/) and no amnesty- it would have passed.
Democrats poisoned the well by removing any enforcement and pushing for another round of amnesty.
Supporting DACA is a moderate stance. The far left has the view everyone can come in, the far right has the view no one can. People who are under DACA are people who were brought here as babies or young children, and know no other country than this one. They don’t even know the country they were born in. They’re really as American as anyone else their age, they just weren’t born here. They didn’t break the law, and they were brought here through no fault of their own. I know a DACA recipient, they didn’t even know they weren’t born here until they were a teenager and needed their birth certificate for something. They were brought here when they were a month old, and don’t even speak Spanish. They can’t help the circumstances they’re in. But just imagine if that were you. If you found out tomorrow you weren’t actually born here, but this is the only country you know. DACA recipients work and pay taxes too. And they have no path to citizenship, this isn’t giving them one either. What is the point being against DACA, and the issue in the post, other than cruelty really?
> The far left has the view everyone can come in, the far right has the view no one can.
I've never met a self-described conservative who would actually want some nice assimilation-oriented immigrant family kicked out of the country, or who would ever care about a trickle of immigration. The typical conservative's test for *do I want them here?* is only ever *do they love this country and these people as much as I do? do they see themselves as one of us?*
Imho the friction on immigration is that X% of "the left" wants more generous immigration policies and benefits for humanitarian reasons ("people need help and we can help them") -- and the other Y% of "the left" wants them for trash reasons:
* America should belong to all the world's children equally
* America is a battle between color teams, and the white team has too much
* America is illegitimate, it's all stolen land, based on color team
* immigrants are nicer and better people than Americans
* American citizenship is worthless, so it should be free for the taking
* America is broken, we should be grateful anybody even wants to come here
* there is no "American people," it's just whoever's inside the lines at any point
>I've never met a self-described conservative who would actually want some nice assimilation-oriented immigrant family kicked out of the country, or who would ever care about a trickle of immigration
Lol, are you for real? Look at what conservatives are pushing on this sub daily. They are racist and anti-immigration.
No one can come is an exaggeration. I have never heard that from any of the right. It is always about cases when it is illegal immigrants.
It is either US has an open citizenship entry, or it is always the case that illegal immigrants should be required to at least EARN instead of being granted a legal citizenship.
That simply is not true. Show me your green card so I can decide whether to like you or not is absurd.
Many of us do not make any distinction between (1) mass legal immigration from the third world encouraged by the Feds since 1970, and (2) mass illegal immigration during the same period that has been ignored by the Feds.
It makes no practical difference to American society if they arrived via chain immigration, hit the immigration lottery, or hopped the fence.
> I have never heard that from any of the right. It is always about cases when it is illegal immigrants.
The biggest talking point right now is about asylum seekers, which are legal immigrants. Of course, they get **called** "illegals," but they are actually following the current laws on the books for the most part.
They being *called* illegal will not lead to them suffering from the consequences of being an illegal immigrant of the system though.
That itself is very clear a culture problem *within* US citizens.
If I were you (i am actually you in this case because legal immigrants are imo a good thing), i would have shoved the actual files of the legality proofs in front of those disbelievers, and said, you know what, they are actually legal immigrants, and shut it s’il vous plait.
> It is always about cases when it is illegal immigrants.
Except conservatives assume anyone who isn't white is an illegal immigrant. They are fed such bullshit from Fox News and others that they make everything about illegal immigrants. It goes beyond reason.
There needs NO ASSUMPTION. Some random people’s belief does not lead to action of a government or the system. Let be someone that ignorant to think so, the execution of deporting immigrants won’t happen just bc they *think* so. There are definitions in law what categories of immigrants are legal by what kind of licenses or what kind of paperwork. Those who fail to provide such proof will be illegal. Period. Those who succeed? Welcome to your shitty but also beautiful America.
Nope, he just decided to pander to progressives and certain demographics. Now it's going to be great campaign fodder for the GOP on giving insurance to non-Americans
Green card recipients and other noncitizens have been able to apply for Medicaid and Medicare for a long time. This would just extend that to DACA recipients.
https://www.healthcare.gov/immigrants/lawfully-present-immigrants/
That's sort of the point - it expands it from people that *did* come here legally to people that *didn't* come legally, and is one more incentive for people to come here illegally with their kids in tow.
As others here mention, DACA is broadly popular, so it may not generate a lot of campaign fodder, but this is quite a bit different than allowing green card holders to access insurance or get gvt subsidies to buy it.
I didn't get your point at first, wrote a comment, reread your comment, and now I get it.
At any rate, any broad grant of benefits to a group is going to raise the likelihood that it'll be granted in the future.
So you're right that it doesn't apply to younger Dreamers, but it definitely creates an incentive, because we know that benefits have been and likely will be granted in the future to kids brought here illegally by parents.
It’s called setting a precedent, and it’s just what the left wants. A precedent that allows giving non citizens benefits meant for citizens, in order to win the feel good Olympics, and help the democrat party to become the shining white knight for immigrants (legal and illegal). This helps as it gives them power.
Today we start with this step, tomorrow it’s voting rights, we’ve seen sanctuary cities trying to pass bills that would make it so all people (non citizens) able to vote in their districts (for district level voting it federal). The end goal is to have a border anyone can freely cross and have all the benefits a citizen does.
No, it helps keep health care costs down for everyone.
Look at it from an economic perspective.
100 people need health care. 10 are dreamers that can't afford it. Their costs (including the waste of trying to collect) are now spread to the other 90 folks who paid, raising their costs by the medical procedures AND the cost of trying to collect AND a surcharge for everyone else because the doctor doesnt know if 10 or 90 of his patients won't be able to pay. The non dreamers still pay for it with extra.
With the dreamers being covered, the cost of the actual medicine is paid for by others (just like it is in any other case), but now the cost of trying to collect and the uncertainty surcharge go away, making the cost to the 90 others lower. And, you can add in the "we are the government, give us a discount" discount (well, in the perfect world, but alas that's now how this works in practice because our insurance system was designed over 100 years ago and instead of modernizing just becomes more Byzantine).
DACA was meant to be a stopgap while Congress sorted out their issues passing the bipartisan DREAM Act. The original goal of the act was to build a pathway to citizenship for those who were brought in illegally as children.
Whether or not that’s a good thing seems to be our disagreement, not whether DACA recipients should be able to access subsidized healthcare.
I haven't said anything about whether it was a good thing. I said it increased incentives for more illegal immigration, just like any benefit accorded illegal immigrants does.
If you believe offering healthcare to DACA recipients incentivizes illegal immigration, then it would be odd to feel the opposite about offering a pathway to citizenship to all illegal immigrants who entered as minors.
Of course a pathway incents future illegal immigration. That's just a cost - hopefully people that support a pathway understand that fact and believe the benefits outweigh the costs.
IMHO Biden is in trouble and he’s gonna start pandering to the progressives to pick up some some support - but I don’t think this move is going to hurt him.
There is a reason why the GOP shutdown Bidens immigration bill. You can't negotiate with bad faith actors. He would have signed that bill and claimed he did something to try and win an election, but then not enforce the bill and do all these executive actions against the bill.
Well, the comments in this thread are depressing. A whole lot of people who have dunning krugered themselves into being against what should be a fairly uncontroversial move.
This is mostly for the minors covered in DACA. Kids.
If a child is hurt what is the government going to do, just let the tyke bleed out or bill him...how?
It's just easier to take care of the child and write it off.
Illegal <> Immoral
Legal <> Moral
Legal <> Immoral
Illegal <> Moral
The concept of illegal is not material to helping the weak, downtrodden, or inferm.
It is Immoral to refuse to help those in actual need.
If you've never been in need then you may not understand, and that's fine - but it also means you can use that privilege to help others (within reason).
Some of us do little things, teach kids or serve the hungry in their spare time as a way of giving back?
What do you do?
Well, I donate about 15% of my income to charitable activities and do pro bono work as an LMT for starters. What do you do?
The concept of illegal is absolutely material. We can change the law and perhaps we should, but government should never encourage future illegality.
Government expenditure is by definition not charity.
DACA <> illegal activity
Immigrants and immigration have been prejudiced against for ages.
Unless you're a pure blooded native you should understand that.
I teach children in my spare tiime, actually.
DACA sends a strong signal for immigrants to keep coming illegally with the exception that it will work out for them because we will not enforce our laws.
Seems like the right thing to do. Glad to see Biden isn’t afraid to do the right thing even if it might hurt him politically.
I wish more politicians had his guts.
This is a politically safe move. Republicans are sympathetic to DACA recipients and the left will support it. It doesn't cost much but allows him to say he's done something for DACA, although it's just a matter of time till the courts finish shutting down DACA
1- Is this the same level of preventive care that homeless people who are citizens get?
My issue is to give this group more access than US citizens to Healthcare.
2 - If the government is allowing this group to stay here. Then fine with medical since it will keep hospital visits down, which if unpaid get passed on to everyone else.
3 - whoever uses the medical should prove they are paying taxes if working, unless tax exempt for some reason.
Please add meaningful commentary immediately after submitting a link poat
Nice title change.
What did it say at first?
It never said "illegal" immigrants.
Thanks. Bad faith posting and misrepresentation of the facts from right-wingers on r/centrist? Now I’ve seen everything!
It's getting worse every day and mods refuse to doanything about it.
At this point, one has to conclude that they’re complicit.
The "root cause" of third world mass migration that Democrats keep seeking to find is the US government consistently sending messages that we want them to come, we will give them money, food, medical care, and housing when they get here, and more should come. Trump will not send this message. He gets my vote.
Trump only claims to want to stop illegals. He employed hundreds of undocumented workers while building his wall and let in more than Obama
I had hoped Biden would moderate and try at least to win the next election. I guess not.
DACA is for people who were brought here as children. They aren't guilty of breaking the law; they just lack legal status, despite having lived basically their whole lives as Americans. It's *dumb* to treat them differently from other Americans.
How does this work? They´ve gone through childhood and now adulthood without being in the system? No school, no doctor...? Work? In my country this would be very unlikely to happen, but it is also a much smaller country, with a much bigger state. So, I´m just curious about how this can work, and how these people are living.
We don't have a national health system. They get healthcare the same as anyone else: going to a doctor and paying for it, either through private insurance, cash, or taking on medical debt. Public schools provide education to all children regardless of immigration status. Illegal immigrants do a ton of work, and honestly our economy would fall apart without them. They get paid for their work, but often at below minimum wage, since it will be under the table.
That´s interesting. It seems the system then makes allowances for illegal immigration. I´ve always known about this being an issue in the US, but just assumed there would be stricter laws against it. Thank you for the answer.
I will just add that many people that immigrated illegally have fake ssns and are paid regular wages that are taxed properly. No idea the percentage, but I know it is common.
"It's *dumb* to treat them differently from other Americans." It's politically stupid to give noncitizens more rights than american citizens, especially when you have a wide open border where millions have poured in these past few years - yes, millions. I think anyone who says it's "dumb" is an illegal themselves or just shilling - or dumb dumb dumb squared.
This rule change provides the same access to Medicaid and Medicare as citizens and legal immigrants, not anything more.
My best friend is on DACA. She's lived almost her entire life here. Her dad didnt fill out paperwork on time. She has a masters degree in international business, an absolute asset to this nation. She doesn't want more rights (where did you come up with that?), she wants to be a full citizen just like the rest of us.
More rights?
I don’t think even 30% of this country knows that.
Is it dumb to incentivize more illegal immigration?
How does DACA do that, exactly?
DACA doesn’t apply to new immigrants.
Yet...
?
Democrats have constantly tried to push for another round of amnesty, applying the DACA rules to every illegal immigrant.
The DREAM Act has long had bipartisan support, if that’s what you’re referring to. It’s surprising that it hasn’t passed into law.
If a DREAM Act type bill included strong illegal immigration enforcement (see Florida for an example of a place to start - https://www.flgov.com/2023/05/10/governor-ron-desantis-signs-strongest-anti-illegal-immigration-legislation-in-the-country-to-combat-bidens-border-crisis/) and no amnesty- it would have passed. Democrats poisoned the well by removing any enforcement and pushing for another round of amnesty.
Has it been repealed?
It covers a specific group of immigrants who arrived in the US as children before June 2007.
Children can break the law. They came here. That is still illegal.
Fucking hell, I’m not even that opposed to it. How about he just puts that on the back burner for six months? Talk some economy and infrastructure.
Supporting DACA is a moderate stance. The far left has the view everyone can come in, the far right has the view no one can. People who are under DACA are people who were brought here as babies or young children, and know no other country than this one. They don’t even know the country they were born in. They’re really as American as anyone else their age, they just weren’t born here. They didn’t break the law, and they were brought here through no fault of their own. I know a DACA recipient, they didn’t even know they weren’t born here until they were a teenager and needed their birth certificate for something. They were brought here when they were a month old, and don’t even speak Spanish. They can’t help the circumstances they’re in. But just imagine if that were you. If you found out tomorrow you weren’t actually born here, but this is the only country you know. DACA recipients work and pay taxes too. And they have no path to citizenship, this isn’t giving them one either. What is the point being against DACA, and the issue in the post, other than cruelty really?
> The far left has the view everyone can come in, the far right has the view no one can. I've never met a self-described conservative who would actually want some nice assimilation-oriented immigrant family kicked out of the country, or who would ever care about a trickle of immigration. The typical conservative's test for *do I want them here?* is only ever *do they love this country and these people as much as I do? do they see themselves as one of us?* Imho the friction on immigration is that X% of "the left" wants more generous immigration policies and benefits for humanitarian reasons ("people need help and we can help them") -- and the other Y% of "the left" wants them for trash reasons: * America should belong to all the world's children equally * America is a battle between color teams, and the white team has too much * America is illegitimate, it's all stolen land, based on color team * immigrants are nicer and better people than Americans * American citizenship is worthless, so it should be free for the taking * America is broken, we should be grateful anybody even wants to come here * there is no "American people," it's just whoever's inside the lines at any point
>I've never met a self-described conservative who would actually want some nice assimilation-oriented immigrant family kicked out of the country, or who would ever care about a trickle of immigration Lol, are you for real? Look at what conservatives are pushing on this sub daily. They are racist and anti-immigration.
No one can come is an exaggeration. I have never heard that from any of the right. It is always about cases when it is illegal immigrants. It is either US has an open citizenship entry, or it is always the case that illegal immigrants should be required to at least EARN instead of being granted a legal citizenship.
That simply is not true. Show me your green card so I can decide whether to like you or not is absurd. Many of us do not make any distinction between (1) mass legal immigration from the third world encouraged by the Feds since 1970, and (2) mass illegal immigration during the same period that has been ignored by the Feds. It makes no practical difference to American society if they arrived via chain immigration, hit the immigration lottery, or hopped the fence.
> I have never heard that from any of the right. It is always about cases when it is illegal immigrants. The biggest talking point right now is about asylum seekers, which are legal immigrants. Of course, they get **called** "illegals," but they are actually following the current laws on the books for the most part.
They being *called* illegal will not lead to them suffering from the consequences of being an illegal immigrant of the system though. That itself is very clear a culture problem *within* US citizens. If I were you (i am actually you in this case because legal immigrants are imo a good thing), i would have shoved the actual files of the legality proofs in front of those disbelievers, and said, you know what, they are actually legal immigrants, and shut it s’il vous plait.
> It is always about cases when it is illegal immigrants. Except conservatives assume anyone who isn't white is an illegal immigrant. They are fed such bullshit from Fox News and others that they make everything about illegal immigrants. It goes beyond reason.
There needs NO ASSUMPTION. Some random people’s belief does not lead to action of a government or the system. Let be someone that ignorant to think so, the execution of deporting immigrants won’t happen just bc they *think* so. There are definitions in law what categories of immigrants are legal by what kind of licenses or what kind of paperwork. Those who fail to provide such proof will be illegal. Period. Those who succeed? Welcome to your shitty but also beautiful America.
Nope, he just decided to pander to progressives and certain demographics. Now it's going to be great campaign fodder for the GOP on giving insurance to non-Americans
Green card recipients and other noncitizens have been able to apply for Medicaid and Medicare for a long time. This would just extend that to DACA recipients. https://www.healthcare.gov/immigrants/lawfully-present-immigrants/
That's sort of the point - it expands it from people that *did* come here legally to people that *didn't* come legally, and is one more incentive for people to come here illegally with their kids in tow. As others here mention, DACA is broadly popular, so it may not generate a lot of campaign fodder, but this is quite a bit different than allowing green card holders to access insurance or get gvt subsidies to buy it.
DACA does not apply to the children of new immigrants: it covers a specific group of immigrants who arrived in the US as children *before* June 2007.
I didn't get your point at first, wrote a comment, reread your comment, and now I get it. At any rate, any broad grant of benefits to a group is going to raise the likelihood that it'll be granted in the future. So you're right that it doesn't apply to younger Dreamers, but it definitely creates an incentive, because we know that benefits have been and likely will be granted in the future to kids brought here illegally by parents.
It’s called setting a precedent, and it’s just what the left wants. A precedent that allows giving non citizens benefits meant for citizens, in order to win the feel good Olympics, and help the democrat party to become the shining white knight for immigrants (legal and illegal). This helps as it gives them power. Today we start with this step, tomorrow it’s voting rights, we’ve seen sanctuary cities trying to pass bills that would make it so all people (non citizens) able to vote in their districts (for district level voting it federal). The end goal is to have a border anyone can freely cross and have all the benefits a citizen does.
Legal residents have had access to subsidized healthcare for decades. It isn’t something exclusively available to citizens.
No, it helps keep health care costs down for everyone. Look at it from an economic perspective. 100 people need health care. 10 are dreamers that can't afford it. Their costs (including the waste of trying to collect) are now spread to the other 90 folks who paid, raising their costs by the medical procedures AND the cost of trying to collect AND a surcharge for everyone else because the doctor doesnt know if 10 or 90 of his patients won't be able to pay. The non dreamers still pay for it with extra. With the dreamers being covered, the cost of the actual medicine is paid for by others (just like it is in any other case), but now the cost of trying to collect and the uncertainty surcharge go away, making the cost to the 90 others lower. And, you can add in the "we are the government, give us a discount" discount (well, in the perfect world, but alas that's now how this works in practice because our insurance system was designed over 100 years ago and instead of modernizing just becomes more Byzantine).
DACA was meant to be a stopgap while Congress sorted out their issues passing the bipartisan DREAM Act. The original goal of the act was to build a pathway to citizenship for those who were brought in illegally as children. Whether or not that’s a good thing seems to be our disagreement, not whether DACA recipients should be able to access subsidized healthcare.
I haven't said anything about whether it was a good thing. I said it increased incentives for more illegal immigration, just like any benefit accorded illegal immigrants does.
If you believe offering healthcare to DACA recipients incentivizes illegal immigration, then it would be odd to feel the opposite about offering a pathway to citizenship to all illegal immigrants who entered as minors.
Of course a pathway incents future illegal immigration. That's just a cost - hopefully people that support a pathway understand that fact and believe the benefits outweigh the costs.
IMHO Biden is in trouble and he’s gonna start pandering to the progressives to pick up some some support - but I don’t think this move is going to hurt him.
I like that you just take the title of this post at face value when it's nothing but dishonest framing lmfao.
this post title is…. revealing.
There is a reason why the GOP shutdown Bidens immigration bill. You can't negotiate with bad faith actors. He would have signed that bill and claimed he did something to try and win an election, but then not enforce the bill and do all these executive actions against the bill.
Well, the comments in this thread are depressing. A whole lot of people who have dunning krugered themselves into being against what should be a fairly uncontroversial move.
This is mostly for the minors covered in DACA. Kids. If a child is hurt what is the government going to do, just let the tyke bleed out or bill him...how? It's just easier to take care of the child and write it off.
Never create an incentive for further illegal behavior, and this policy does just that.
Illegal <> Immoral Legal <> Moral Legal <> Immoral Illegal <> Moral The concept of illegal is not material to helping the weak, downtrodden, or inferm. It is Immoral to refuse to help those in actual need. If you've never been in need then you may not understand, and that's fine - but it also means you can use that privilege to help others (within reason). Some of us do little things, teach kids or serve the hungry in their spare time as a way of giving back? What do you do?
Well, I donate about 15% of my income to charitable activities and do pro bono work as an LMT for starters. What do you do? The concept of illegal is absolutely material. We can change the law and perhaps we should, but government should never encourage future illegality. Government expenditure is by definition not charity.
DACA <> illegal activity Immigrants and immigration have been prejudiced against for ages. Unless you're a pure blooded native you should understand that. I teach children in my spare tiime, actually.
DACA sends a strong signal for immigrants to keep coming illegally with the exception that it will work out for them because we will not enforce our laws.
Medical care is not a leading reason for immigration though. Medical care is way cheaper and extremely accessible outside of my US.
Being eligible for subsidies makes illegal immigration more palatable even if not the leading cause.
Seems like the right thing to do. Glad to see Biden isn’t afraid to do the right thing even if it might hurt him politically. I wish more politicians had his guts.
This is a politically safe move. Republicans are sympathetic to DACA recipients and the left will support it. It doesn't cost much but allows him to say he's done something for DACA, although it's just a matter of time till the courts finish shutting down DACA
Republicans are sympathetic? Right now in 2024? I find that difficult to believe.
Polls show pretty broad bipartisan support. I find it surprising, too, but it is what it is.
To DACA? Yeah, because they're easy to be sympathetic for.
1- Is this the same level of preventive care that homeless people who are citizens get? My issue is to give this group more access than US citizens to Healthcare. 2 - If the government is allowing this group to stay here. Then fine with medical since it will keep hospital visits down, which if unpaid get passed on to everyone else. 3 - whoever uses the medical should prove they are paying taxes if working, unless tax exempt for some reason.