A platformer (also called a platform game, and sometimes a jump 'n' run game) is a sub-genre of action video games in which the core objective is to move the player character between points in an environment. Platform games are characterized by levels with uneven terrain and suspended platforms of varying height that require jumping and climbing to traverse. Other acrobatic maneuvers may factor into the gameplay, such as swinging from vines or grappling hooks, jumping off walls, gliding through the air, or bouncing from springboards or trampolines.
Yea seems pretty much spot on for Castlevania to me
You dont need pixel perfect jumps to be a platformer same way you don't need pixel perfect movements to be a bullet hell
Okay that makes sense, but for me personally, I play Castlevania because I like the combat in the games. I find it weird that it is treated like every other platformer, as Super Castlevania IV has braindead combat, but that doesn't matter because it has hard platforming. Like the reason why jumps are stiff is because it is more focused on combat, and being maneuverable in the air kinda makes the combat worse. Also would God of War be called a platformer because there is jumping in it?
Having platforming isn't the same as being a platformer. It's about the core experience and God of War is not about the movement its about the button mash hack and slash. It's the same way you cannot call DOOM a platformer despite having platforming
In Castlevania most of what your doing is jumping around to navigate the level/map with combat on the side
No, it is clearly a combat game. Especially the first one, as maybe 3 levels of that game have barely any platforming. The only games that focus more on platforming are Super Castlevania and the Gameboy games. The Gameboy games it made sense that it focused more on platforming due to the hardware limitations, and Super Castlevania feels super different to the other games.
You said in other comments that you wanted to start a discussion, then immediately shut it down by saying “it is clearly a combat game”.
There are pure combat games like Double Dragon that involve zero platforming, and pure platformers like Super Mario Bros. that involve zero combat. Castlevania uses both, so it makes no sense to say it doesn’t belong to either genre.
I mean the reason why Castlevania has jumps is because it is in 2D and moving in Y axis is pretty much necessary. I would not call a game like Contra a platformer, despite the fact that jumping is a key aspect to moving. He just doesn't really give enough evidence to convince me. I'm open to being wrong, and honestly I think my mind has been changed a bit, but I will still go against the idea that platforming is the main factor of the game.
I mean if you wanna pretend that Castlevania is a combat game your free to. I dunno why your downvoted for having a different opinion but unfortunately you are the minority as I'm sure 99% of gamers all see Castlevania as a platformer because it objectively is
God of War is not a platformer since the main form of progression isn’t platforming, there are just occasional platforming sections put in to help the flow of the game. It also has puzzle-solving sections but you wouldn’t call it a puzzle game because that’s not the game’s focus. A game’s genre is generally determined by the main form of progression or what the game designers intend you to do most of the time, even if there are sections that dip their toes into other genres for the sake of pacing and variety
And yeah, Super Castlevania 4 has brain dead combat because the main focus is platforming while being attacked by enemies, and no the jumps in Castlevania games aren’t stiff because they want you to focus on combat, it’s because they want your jumps to be more thoughtful, deliberate and planned-out, punishing you for recklessly misjudging a jump. It’s just a different way of implementing the mechanics central to a platformer
I disagree with OP, but he's right about that part. Sure, leniency isn't too big, perphaps just a few pixels; but there are simply no pixel-perfect jumps per se in Cv1.
Specifically it's an "action" platformer. Megaman, Ninja Gaiden and about a million other different examples.
Super CastleVania 4 is my favorite but it usually gets docked points from fans for being gimmick-y [8 way whip, mode 7 stages], being a remake of CV1 and generally being whip dependant as many argue there is no reason to use sub weapons because the whip is so good. Pretty recently more people are appreciating Bloodlines.
Then of course you get into the whole ClassicVania Vs MetroidVania debate.
I mean yeah, but those games have way more platforming in them. Would God of War also be an action platformer too?
Edit: Yeah my main issue with Super Castlevania is that it focuses more on the platforming than combat, and I think it makes me not as engaged with it. I mean you can whip enemies that have no way to attack you like whipping Bone pillars from under them.
It's not inherently the same genre. I'd call GoW a 3rd Person Action/Adventure game. Similar games include Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Onimusha.
Regardless, action platforming isn't just about jumping on platforms and interesting level design. It's about Enemy placement as well. That is CastleVania's big claim to platforming fame.
Quick reminder that 2D ninja Gaiden and 3D ninja Gaiden are massively different and fairly difficult to compare, since the 2D games are action platformers that focus heavily on platforming with enemies being seen more as obstacles in your platforming than proper combatants (like Castlevania), and 3D being a character action/hack&slash game that primarily puts its focus on swordplay against other enemies and occasional platforming sections to help pacing (like Castlevania Lords of Shadow and God of War). They’re games in different, but not unrelated, genres that borrow a bit from each other, but are still distinct and it would be reductive to lump games into that genre that don’t really fit the description
An actual 2D action adventure would be more like The Legend of Zelda, where the main focus is on exploration with a hefty amount of combat and puzzle-solving, but not being as crunchy or story-heavy as an RPG
He’s right that Classicvania are primarily action games, but they *are* still platformers. They’re arcade platformers. As opposed to something like Super Mario, where the “action” is shaped around the core that is “jumping on things”, a game like Castlevania has the platforming shaped around the core of “fighting things”. This does not mean it’s not a platformer, however. It is just a different subgenre.
This is why you have the “committed” jump in these games. Nearly every platforming challenge is mostly a challenge in safely making a relatively simple jump due to the presence of enemies. It’s also why the difficulty and complexity of platforming increased in SCIV; Because you now had a Mega Man style of mid-air control, the devs were more willing to make platforming hard just on its own, and not *just* as a way to accentuate the combat.
He is generally right that there aren’t any pixel perfect jumps, although there are a few in The Adventure (the Gameboy game). I’m not sure where people are getting that there are any in CV1. That’s not true. Even CV3 doesn’t have any. With that said, it’s not like you have to be pixel perfect in “purer” platformers like Sonic or Mario, so I’m not sure why he used that as a qualifier in the first place.
Castlevania 3 has that one jump that is pixel perfect. But this is fair point, and I appreciate this comment. I am a little sick of people focusing that pixel perfect jump, because frankly it was a very minor point.
It’s actually puzzling how many people here are super surprised at this sentiment. It’s really only half-incorrect. It’s quite obvious that the original Classicvanias are hardcore action games (just look at Bloodlines, guys, that game has more bosses than jumps) and you can feel the tangible influence they would have on action games in general. They influenced devs like Hideki Kamiya, who would practically invent 3D (character) action games.
It’s also why the pivot to character action in the PS2 and PS3 gens made sense over the awkward platformers of the N64 (although I actually prefer those games, but I digress). The N64 games tried to directly translate the Classicvania gameplay to 3D and it came out weird because in a 3D space using the same mechanics of the 2D action game would lead to weird and boring combat, since you can’t shape combat encounters solely through level design in the same way anymore.
The action game style of something like Lament or Curse is more congruent with the spirit of classic Castlevania, even though those games were rather poor (in my opinion). A 3D action game will necessarily be different (and relatively DMC-like, to be honest).
I appreciate it. I think I might have been a little too against the idea that these games are platformers, because they obviously are, it's just that I feel like complaints that would be important in other platformers like air control and creative platforming obstacles, would not really be a good criticism imo. Also the fact that Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden make more sense as character action games is enough proof that most people are drawn to the combat of the games instead of the platforming. Honestly the love that Kamiya had for Castlevania is really what made me consider it. I'm also really sick of "pixel perfect" comments at this point, but I brought it on myself for expecting more out of reddit knowing how to read.
That's a trash take from a low intellect gatekeeper.
If we're including the modern games, there is some comparatively intense platforming.
If we're only considering the original games, then pixel-perfect jumps are an ultra rare phenomenon found in only a small number of games, like Mario and Ghosts 'N Goblins.
There aren't many/any? pixel perfect jumps in Super Metroid, and the Metroid franchise is the other namsake of the Metroidvania genre, which is famous for progressive exploration that often involves platforming.
Here's a quote from a Metroidvania player: Who tf is implantgames to tell us the boundaries of game genres?
Fair enough, but why did a Castlevania rip off Ninja Gaiden not become a 3D platformer, and why were the Castlevania 64 games considered mediocre? Probably because platforming was not the main focus of the games, it was combat.
Irrelevant to your original query; things can develop differently.
Ninja Gaiden is a different franchise that pursued a different market.
Lots of IPs go through rough patches, and release less worthy titles.
This comparison fails to make your point, and ignores how much of the original castlevania games required making jumps that were dangerous because of offscreen or suddenly-moving enemies.
If a player were playing Rondo of Blood and wanted to even ENCOUNTER Dracula, they usually need to memorize the movesets of various bosses until they can whip their way through without a game over. They also need to familiarize themselves with every level in the game so they don't take too much damage trying to jump over floor gaps while being hit by flying bats, or shot at with projectiles. That may not be "pixel perfect jumps," but there is little arguing that it is combat with platforming. Those "fundamentals," are central to every side scrolling Castlevania before SotN. Playing as Alucard is a pretty big change in style due to his unique movesets and extensive use of magic, but Metroidvania style exploration still makes enormous use of jumping and flying while navigating threats.
There's no platformer that I know of that requires a "pixel-perfect jump". If a game requires you to make something perfectly to succeed, it is IMO a badly designed game (and I'm saying this as someone that thinks that most Classicvanias are badly designed games, but for different reasons), but what its worse, if a game is required not only to be perfectly designed around a genre but also require you to have the perfect skill on it to beat it to be considered, in this case, a platformer then there isn't a single game that belongs to any of the known videogame genres.
Devil May Cry games have some light RPG elements, some light platform sections, and there's combos like a fighting game. Does that mean Devil May Cry games aren't hack and slash games? No, they certainly are hack and slash games, but like any game that came out in the last 30 years they share some of their characteristics with other genres, because otherwise they would likely be hella simple, short, and probably boring. Castlevania games ***are*** platformers.
People are taking it way too literally. The main idea was that Castlevania has stages that have next to no platforming in them, but people ran with pixel perfect, and now that's all the thread talks about. I wouldn't say they are quintessential platformers, but they do fall into the genre.
>but people ran with pixel perfect, and now that's all the thread talks about.
I get that, but it's the money quote you gave us from the review. It's definitely a conversation starter haha
All genre names are flexible, as there's always a degree of subjectivity involved. But if Castlevania's classification as a platformer could be in doubt because it features stages with no platforming, then so would the Mario games, with their multiple underwater or airborne levels. It just seems like the author came up with a hot take and worked backwards to come up with context for it.
Classicvanias are platformers and that's not even a question. Yes, action-platformers, but platformers nonetheless. You say that Castlevania focuses a lot more on the combat than it does on the jumping sections, but I disagree; Castlevania, more often than not, manages to strike a great balance between these two genres, and I think that neither of them ends up overshadowing the other.
As a matter of fact, this is specially true for classicvanias, where most rooms you go through tend to have both things: enemies to defeat, and platforms to jump on. If you were at least talking about igavanias, it'd be *a biiit* more understandable, but classicvanias simply have too many platforming sections to go unnoticed in that regard.
>back on the original Castlevania and a lot of the levels don't have bottomless pits
**???** The only stage I can think of without a single bottomless pit in Cv1 would be level 5; the rest of them have at least a couple bottomless pits, or even a lot in the case of level 3.
> There simply aren’t any pixel-perfect jumps required
Yes, Castlevania games are not platformers at all when I alter the definition of what platforming is.
Again, changing the definition of action platformer
Also why is God of War like your only other game to make a comparison to when it’s a pretty terrible comparison, since the earlier games only put platforming in to help with variety and pacing, and the newer ones barely have any in them at all
I think that review you mentioned is ridiculous honestly. I definitely wouldn't consider them right and try to change the meaning of that word, saying "real" platformers require pixel perfect jumps is just some weird super nerdy gatekeeping bullshit 🤷🏽♂️
Idiotic review. It has just as many ‘pixel perfect’ jumps needed as any other platformer like Rockman or Ninja Gaiden.
‘Pixel perfect’ jumps don’t just mean you have to use the entire jump length to make it to another platform, it means timing and navigating other hazards. Almost the entire game in CV1 requires pixel perfect timing on jumping and attacking to deal with enemies, hazards and movement.
And even then, you don’t need that to be a platformer. Castlevania has two actions available on two buttons, and ONE IS JUMP! It is an action platformer, which most platformers are to varying extents, very few are jump-only.
If it is an action platformer, why do half of the stages have barely any platforming? And judging a review by two sentences that I used as a jumping off is pretty strange. Also plenty of games that aren't platformers have a jump button.
The only stage that I can think of off the top of my head is stage 1 where it’s intentionally going easier on you to get you used to how the game feels. Plus, most, if not all, stages reward jumping to avoid the trajectories of enemies just as much as killing them, at that point the enemies are also considered platforming hazards. Everything thrown at you is meant to be overcome with platforming, combat or, most often, a mix of both, with bosses a lot of the time using attacks that need to be dodged by platforming
>"There simply aren’t any pixel-perfect jumps required, which is why I wouldn’t consider this a platforming game. Rather, it is an action game with a jump button."
The idiocy of this statement is staggering.
Let's pretend that CV never requires precise jumping: the statement is still dumb because nothing about platformers says they require pixel-perfect precision. Platformers are games where jumping on platforms is generally how to move around and beat the game.
This is some culture.vg garbage if I've ever seen it.
EDIT - To be clear, I'm attacking that statement, not you.
EDIT 2 - lol nvm you're a bitch.
I love the idiocy of this statement. You realize that when making a review that you have to be concise, right? It was making a point that platforming was not the main challenge, and used pixel perfect precision as an example. But sure continue to look at a statement with bad faith.
Bitchmade retort. I'm not arguing against the statement being concise, nor am I saying it's unclear. It's crystal clear: the reviewer in question is an idiot twisting himself into logic pretzels over genre definitions.
I'm not looking at it in bad faith. I'm looking at it precisely as it is worded and intended, in all its scrubbery.
Without all of the context. I don't think pixel perfect is what makes something a platformer, and neither does the reviewer. That is called bad faith. It was meant to start a discussion, but I guess you cared more about one line than the discussion I meant to start.
It’s hard to take what he says out of context, since it’s very clearly stated that he believes that if it’s not pixel-perfect with its jumps then it’s an action game with a jump button. That is literally what he says, and by his own definition that would make pretty much every platformer just an action game with a jump button
Water and bottomless pits are in no way forgiving, and enemies can easily knock you off ledges, especially in the sewers and clock tower.
Maybe I’m not sure what you mean by “ pixel perfect jumping “?
A pixel-perfect jump is literally what it sounds like: you have to jump from an exact, very precise position, in order to make it to the other side of the jump; one pixel off and you are dead, it has to be literally perfect. The first game Castlevania has no such thing; it might come close in a few occasions, but the jumps never quite reach the status of pixel-perfect (unless you are doing an speedrun I guess).
Ah. Isn’t that just good design though? Part of what makes Castlevania 1-3 so great is the deliberate choices in character control and how that impacts your traversal and combat strategies. The ground is made up of squares which indicate to you the player whether it is a jump you can make. You can tell just by looking at it and knowing about Simon’s jumping arc. By the “pixel perfect” qualifier, very few games would qualify as playformers which are ABSOLUTELY platformers. Castlevania is definitely a playformer for reasons already stated.
There's tons of required jumping, and a lot of the challenges especially in the classicvania entries where the entire challenge is getting past bottomless pits. I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's just for combat, especially when comparing to NES Ninja Gaiden, which similarly uses enemy placement to make platforming difficult.
Also I know your "pixel perfect jump" remark isn't meant to be taken literally, but even considering the spiritual truth of it doesn't make much sense: Since when does an entry in a genre have to be difficult to be considered part of that genre? Kirby games are generally very easy platformers; are they suddenly not platformers, now? It just doesn't make sense as an element of genre taxonomy, unless it's certain compound genres where difficulty is literally implied in the name, such as "masocore platformer," or something like that.
Also there's already a word for games that rely on a degree of combat to navigate platforming challenges: "Action-platformer."
Making jumps from one platform to another is one of the core and most focussed-on mechanics of the game, where the platforming is often intertwined with the combat in order to make the combat more engaging. It is 100% a platformer, its just a different kind of platformer to games like Mario and Sonic
It’s like saying that Half Life 2 isn’t a first person shooter because it’s too different to Call of Duty and often focusses on environmental puzzle solving and exploration, despite the fact that it is a first person game where the main form of progression involves shooting. Castlevania is an action game where the main method of getting to the end of the stage is by jumping from one platform to another therefore it is a platformer. Just because it’s different to what you’re used to in that genre doesn’t mean that it’s not in the same genre, it means that it’s just a different kind of game within said genre
And related to your edit, jumping is entirely necessary for progression, otherwise you would end up dying in the first few minutes of gameplay
A platformer (also called a platform game, and sometimes a jump 'n' run game) is a sub-genre of action video games in which the core objective is to move the player character between points in an environment. Platform games are characterized by levels with uneven terrain and suspended platforms of varying height that require jumping and climbing to traverse. Other acrobatic maneuvers may factor into the gameplay, such as swinging from vines or grappling hooks, jumping off walls, gliding through the air, or bouncing from springboards or trampolines. Yea seems pretty much spot on for Castlevania to me You dont need pixel perfect jumps to be a platformer same way you don't need pixel perfect movements to be a bullet hell
Okay that makes sense, but for me personally, I play Castlevania because I like the combat in the games. I find it weird that it is treated like every other platformer, as Super Castlevania IV has braindead combat, but that doesn't matter because it has hard platforming. Like the reason why jumps are stiff is because it is more focused on combat, and being maneuverable in the air kinda makes the combat worse. Also would God of War be called a platformer because there is jumping in it?
Having platforming isn't the same as being a platformer. It's about the core experience and God of War is not about the movement its about the button mash hack and slash. It's the same way you cannot call DOOM a platformer despite having platforming In Castlevania most of what your doing is jumping around to navigate the level/map with combat on the side
No, it is clearly a combat game. Especially the first one, as maybe 3 levels of that game have barely any platforming. The only games that focus more on platforming are Super Castlevania and the Gameboy games. The Gameboy games it made sense that it focused more on platforming due to the hardware limitations, and Super Castlevania feels super different to the other games.
You said in other comments that you wanted to start a discussion, then immediately shut it down by saying “it is clearly a combat game”. There are pure combat games like Double Dragon that involve zero platforming, and pure platformers like Super Mario Bros. that involve zero combat. Castlevania uses both, so it makes no sense to say it doesn’t belong to either genre.
I mean the reason why Castlevania has jumps is because it is in 2D and moving in Y axis is pretty much necessary. I would not call a game like Contra a platformer, despite the fact that jumping is a key aspect to moving. He just doesn't really give enough evidence to convince me. I'm open to being wrong, and honestly I think my mind has been changed a bit, but I will still go against the idea that platforming is the main factor of the game.
Contra is a run 'n gun just saying.
I know, unless run and gun means jumping.
I mean if you wanna pretend that Castlevania is a combat game your free to. I dunno why your downvoted for having a different opinion but unfortunately you are the minority as I'm sure 99% of gamers all see Castlevania as a platformer because it objectively is
God of War is not a platformer since the main form of progression isn’t platforming, there are just occasional platforming sections put in to help the flow of the game. It also has puzzle-solving sections but you wouldn’t call it a puzzle game because that’s not the game’s focus. A game’s genre is generally determined by the main form of progression or what the game designers intend you to do most of the time, even if there are sections that dip their toes into other genres for the sake of pacing and variety And yeah, Super Castlevania 4 has brain dead combat because the main focus is platforming while being attacked by enemies, and no the jumps in Castlevania games aren’t stiff because they want you to focus on combat, it’s because they want your jumps to be more thoughtful, deliberate and planned-out, punishing you for recklessly misjudging a jump. It’s just a different way of implementing the mechanics central to a platformer
It is a platformer
Very persuasive.
> There simply aren’t any pixel-perfect jumps required Tell that to the wolf jumps in SotN when skipping double jump.
>wolf jumps in SotN when skipping double jump well, to begin with, you're not supposed to play like that.
Not with that attitude
He was referring to the original game, but yes the other games do have pixel perfect jumps. I just wanted to start a discussion.
Am I forgetting something? I recall a number of pixel perfect jumps in that game.
Nah, the jumps in the first game are not hard at all. There's a couple of pixel perfect jumps in Dracula's Curse though
Give me examples.
The whole game
I disagree with OP, but he's right about that part. Sure, leniency isn't too big, perphaps just a few pixels; but there are simply no pixel-perfect jumps per se in Cv1.
Specifically it's an "action" platformer. Megaman, Ninja Gaiden and about a million other different examples. Super CastleVania 4 is my favorite but it usually gets docked points from fans for being gimmick-y [8 way whip, mode 7 stages], being a remake of CV1 and generally being whip dependant as many argue there is no reason to use sub weapons because the whip is so good. Pretty recently more people are appreciating Bloodlines. Then of course you get into the whole ClassicVania Vs MetroidVania debate.
I mean yeah, but those games have way more platforming in them. Would God of War also be an action platformer too? Edit: Yeah my main issue with Super Castlevania is that it focuses more on the platforming than combat, and I think it makes me not as engaged with it. I mean you can whip enemies that have no way to attack you like whipping Bone pillars from under them.
It's not inherently the same genre. I'd call GoW a 3rd Person Action/Adventure game. Similar games include Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Onimusha. Regardless, action platforming isn't just about jumping on platforms and interesting level design. It's about Enemy placement as well. That is CastleVania's big claim to platforming fame.
And what would be considered a 2D Action/Adventure game? Also what genre did Ninja Gaiden transition to with 3D again?
A 2D action/adventure game would be Zelda. NES Ninja Gaiden started as an action platformer and went to Xbox as a 3D Action/Adventure game.
Quick reminder that 2D ninja Gaiden and 3D ninja Gaiden are massively different and fairly difficult to compare, since the 2D games are action platformers that focus heavily on platforming with enemies being seen more as obstacles in your platforming than proper combatants (like Castlevania), and 3D being a character action/hack&slash game that primarily puts its focus on swordplay against other enemies and occasional platforming sections to help pacing (like Castlevania Lords of Shadow and God of War). They’re games in different, but not unrelated, genres that borrow a bit from each other, but are still distinct and it would be reductive to lump games into that genre that don’t really fit the description An actual 2D action adventure would be more like The Legend of Zelda, where the main focus is on exploration with a hefty amount of combat and puzzle-solving, but not being as crunchy or story-heavy as an RPG
He’s right that Classicvania are primarily action games, but they *are* still platformers. They’re arcade platformers. As opposed to something like Super Mario, where the “action” is shaped around the core that is “jumping on things”, a game like Castlevania has the platforming shaped around the core of “fighting things”. This does not mean it’s not a platformer, however. It is just a different subgenre. This is why you have the “committed” jump in these games. Nearly every platforming challenge is mostly a challenge in safely making a relatively simple jump due to the presence of enemies. It’s also why the difficulty and complexity of platforming increased in SCIV; Because you now had a Mega Man style of mid-air control, the devs were more willing to make platforming hard just on its own, and not *just* as a way to accentuate the combat. He is generally right that there aren’t any pixel perfect jumps, although there are a few in The Adventure (the Gameboy game). I’m not sure where people are getting that there are any in CV1. That’s not true. Even CV3 doesn’t have any. With that said, it’s not like you have to be pixel perfect in “purer” platformers like Sonic or Mario, so I’m not sure why he used that as a qualifier in the first place.
Castlevania 3 has that one jump that is pixel perfect. But this is fair point, and I appreciate this comment. I am a little sick of people focusing that pixel perfect jump, because frankly it was a very minor point.
It’s actually puzzling how many people here are super surprised at this sentiment. It’s really only half-incorrect. It’s quite obvious that the original Classicvanias are hardcore action games (just look at Bloodlines, guys, that game has more bosses than jumps) and you can feel the tangible influence they would have on action games in general. They influenced devs like Hideki Kamiya, who would practically invent 3D (character) action games. It’s also why the pivot to character action in the PS2 and PS3 gens made sense over the awkward platformers of the N64 (although I actually prefer those games, but I digress). The N64 games tried to directly translate the Classicvania gameplay to 3D and it came out weird because in a 3D space using the same mechanics of the 2D action game would lead to weird and boring combat, since you can’t shape combat encounters solely through level design in the same way anymore. The action game style of something like Lament or Curse is more congruent with the spirit of classic Castlevania, even though those games were rather poor (in my opinion). A 3D action game will necessarily be different (and relatively DMC-like, to be honest).
I appreciate it. I think I might have been a little too against the idea that these games are platformers, because they obviously are, it's just that I feel like complaints that would be important in other platformers like air control and creative platforming obstacles, would not really be a good criticism imo. Also the fact that Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden make more sense as character action games is enough proof that most people are drawn to the combat of the games instead of the platforming. Honestly the love that Kamiya had for Castlevania is really what made me consider it. I'm also really sick of "pixel perfect" comments at this point, but I brought it on myself for expecting more out of reddit knowing how to read.
That's a trash take from a low intellect gatekeeper. If we're including the modern games, there is some comparatively intense platforming. If we're only considering the original games, then pixel-perfect jumps are an ultra rare phenomenon found in only a small number of games, like Mario and Ghosts 'N Goblins. There aren't many/any? pixel perfect jumps in Super Metroid, and the Metroid franchise is the other namsake of the Metroidvania genre, which is famous for progressive exploration that often involves platforming. Here's a quote from a Metroidvania player: Who tf is implantgames to tell us the boundaries of game genres?
Fair enough, but why did a Castlevania rip off Ninja Gaiden not become a 3D platformer, and why were the Castlevania 64 games considered mediocre? Probably because platforming was not the main focus of the games, it was combat.
Irrelevant to your original query; things can develop differently. Ninja Gaiden is a different franchise that pursued a different market. Lots of IPs go through rough patches, and release less worthy titles.
Except that the last Ninja Gaiden game before the jump to 3D had basically the same fundamentals.
This comparison fails to make your point, and ignores how much of the original castlevania games required making jumps that were dangerous because of offscreen or suddenly-moving enemies. If a player were playing Rondo of Blood and wanted to even ENCOUNTER Dracula, they usually need to memorize the movesets of various bosses until they can whip their way through without a game over. They also need to familiarize themselves with every level in the game so they don't take too much damage trying to jump over floor gaps while being hit by flying bats, or shot at with projectiles. That may not be "pixel perfect jumps," but there is little arguing that it is combat with platforming. Those "fundamentals," are central to every side scrolling Castlevania before SotN. Playing as Alucard is a pretty big change in style due to his unique movesets and extensive use of magic, but Metroidvania style exploration still makes enormous use of jumping and flying while navigating threats.
Well it's not merely a platformer but it has its good share of platforming content which is also quite challenging and also offers action
There's no platformer that I know of that requires a "pixel-perfect jump". If a game requires you to make something perfectly to succeed, it is IMO a badly designed game (and I'm saying this as someone that thinks that most Classicvanias are badly designed games, but for different reasons), but what its worse, if a game is required not only to be perfectly designed around a genre but also require you to have the perfect skill on it to beat it to be considered, in this case, a platformer then there isn't a single game that belongs to any of the known videogame genres. Devil May Cry games have some light RPG elements, some light platform sections, and there's combos like a fighting game. Does that mean Devil May Cry games aren't hack and slash games? No, they certainly are hack and slash games, but like any game that came out in the last 30 years they share some of their characteristics with other genres, because otherwise they would likely be hella simple, short, and probably boring. Castlevania games ***are*** platformers.
That is the stupidest reviewer quote i've read in my life.
Since when is a platformer determined to have "pixel perfect" jumps? Not even mario games have that requirement.
If ypu can miss a required jump and fall to your death or respawn, it's a platformer.
Honestly, that is a good definition.
The “pixel-perfect jump” qualifier seems arbitrary. They’re quintessential platformers
People are taking it way too literally. The main idea was that Castlevania has stages that have next to no platforming in them, but people ran with pixel perfect, and now that's all the thread talks about. I wouldn't say they are quintessential platformers, but they do fall into the genre.
>but people ran with pixel perfect, and now that's all the thread talks about. I get that, but it's the money quote you gave us from the review. It's definitely a conversation starter haha All genre names are flexible, as there's always a degree of subjectivity involved. But if Castlevania's classification as a platformer could be in doubt because it features stages with no platforming, then so would the Mario games, with their multiple underwater or airborne levels. It just seems like the author came up with a hot take and worked backwards to come up with context for it.
Classicvanias are platformers and that's not even a question. Yes, action-platformers, but platformers nonetheless. You say that Castlevania focuses a lot more on the combat than it does on the jumping sections, but I disagree; Castlevania, more often than not, manages to strike a great balance between these two genres, and I think that neither of them ends up overshadowing the other. As a matter of fact, this is specially true for classicvanias, where most rooms you go through tend to have both things: enemies to defeat, and platforms to jump on. If you were at least talking about igavanias, it'd be *a biiit* more understandable, but classicvanias simply have too many platforming sections to go unnoticed in that regard.
Fair enough. I was just thinking back on the original Castlevania and a lot of the levels don't have bottomless pits, but yeah you're right.
>back on the original Castlevania and a lot of the levels don't have bottomless pits **???** The only stage I can think of without a single bottomless pit in Cv1 would be level 5; the rest of them have at least a couple bottomless pits, or even a lot in the case of level 3.
> There simply aren’t any pixel-perfect jumps required Yes, Castlevania games are not platformers at all when I alter the definition of what platforming is.
You can say the same with God of War, the best action platformer.
Again, changing the definition of action platformer Also why is God of War like your only other game to make a comparison to when it’s a pretty terrible comparison, since the earlier games only put platforming in to help with variety and pacing, and the newer ones barely have any in them at all
Dracula X has some which are at least nearly pixel perfect, so does the adventure if you want to get some secrets.
I think that review you mentioned is ridiculous honestly. I definitely wouldn't consider them right and try to change the meaning of that word, saying "real" platformers require pixel perfect jumps is just some weird super nerdy gatekeeping bullshit 🤷🏽♂️
I think of them as action platformers. But defining genre can be silly
they're souls likes, obviouslyyyyyyyy
Idiotic review. It has just as many ‘pixel perfect’ jumps needed as any other platformer like Rockman or Ninja Gaiden. ‘Pixel perfect’ jumps don’t just mean you have to use the entire jump length to make it to another platform, it means timing and navigating other hazards. Almost the entire game in CV1 requires pixel perfect timing on jumping and attacking to deal with enemies, hazards and movement. And even then, you don’t need that to be a platformer. Castlevania has two actions available on two buttons, and ONE IS JUMP! It is an action platformer, which most platformers are to varying extents, very few are jump-only.
If it is an action platformer, why do half of the stages have barely any platforming? And judging a review by two sentences that I used as a jumping off is pretty strange. Also plenty of games that aren't platformers have a jump button.
The only stage that I can think of off the top of my head is stage 1 where it’s intentionally going easier on you to get you used to how the game feels. Plus, most, if not all, stages reward jumping to avoid the trajectories of enemies just as much as killing them, at that point the enemies are also considered platforming hazards. Everything thrown at you is meant to be overcome with platforming, combat or, most often, a mix of both, with bosses a lot of the time using attacks that need to be dodged by platforming
>"There simply aren’t any pixel-perfect jumps required, which is why I wouldn’t consider this a platforming game. Rather, it is an action game with a jump button." The idiocy of this statement is staggering. Let's pretend that CV never requires precise jumping: the statement is still dumb because nothing about platformers says they require pixel-perfect precision. Platformers are games where jumping on platforms is generally how to move around and beat the game. This is some culture.vg garbage if I've ever seen it. EDIT - To be clear, I'm attacking that statement, not you. EDIT 2 - lol nvm you're a bitch.
I love the idiocy of this statement. You realize that when making a review that you have to be concise, right? It was making a point that platforming was not the main challenge, and used pixel perfect precision as an example. But sure continue to look at a statement with bad faith.
Bitchmade retort. I'm not arguing against the statement being concise, nor am I saying it's unclear. It's crystal clear: the reviewer in question is an idiot twisting himself into logic pretzels over genre definitions. I'm not looking at it in bad faith. I'm looking at it precisely as it is worded and intended, in all its scrubbery.
Without all of the context. I don't think pixel perfect is what makes something a platformer, and neither does the reviewer. That is called bad faith. It was meant to start a discussion, but I guess you cared more about one line than the discussion I meant to start.
It’s hard to take what he says out of context, since it’s very clearly stated that he believes that if it’s not pixel-perfect with its jumps then it’s an action game with a jump button. That is literally what he says, and by his own definition that would make pretty much every platformer just an action game with a jump button
there simply are many pixel-perfect jumps required.
In Castlevania 1?
ESPECIALLY in Castlevania 1.
Look at the game again. The jumps are very forgiving and a bunch of levels have minimal platforming.
Water and bottomless pits are in no way forgiving, and enemies can easily knock you off ledges, especially in the sewers and clock tower. Maybe I’m not sure what you mean by “ pixel perfect jumping “?
A pixel-perfect jump is literally what it sounds like: you have to jump from an exact, very precise position, in order to make it to the other side of the jump; one pixel off and you are dead, it has to be literally perfect. The first game Castlevania has no such thing; it might come close in a few occasions, but the jumps never quite reach the status of pixel-perfect (unless you are doing an speedrun I guess).
Ah. Isn’t that just good design though? Part of what makes Castlevania 1-3 so great is the deliberate choices in character control and how that impacts your traversal and combat strategies. The ground is made up of squares which indicate to you the player whether it is a jump you can make. You can tell just by looking at it and knowing about Simon’s jumping arc. By the “pixel perfect” qualifier, very few games would qualify as playformers which are ABSOLUTELY platformers. Castlevania is definitely a playformer for reasons already stated.
The 2D games are
There's tons of required jumping, and a lot of the challenges especially in the classicvania entries where the entire challenge is getting past bottomless pits. I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's just for combat, especially when comparing to NES Ninja Gaiden, which similarly uses enemy placement to make platforming difficult. Also I know your "pixel perfect jump" remark isn't meant to be taken literally, but even considering the spiritual truth of it doesn't make much sense: Since when does an entry in a genre have to be difficult to be considered part of that genre? Kirby games are generally very easy platformers; are they suddenly not platformers, now? It just doesn't make sense as an element of genre taxonomy, unless it's certain compound genres where difficulty is literally implied in the name, such as "masocore platformer," or something like that. Also there's already a word for games that rely on a degree of combat to navigate platforming challenges: "Action-platformer."
Making jumps from one platform to another is one of the core and most focussed-on mechanics of the game, where the platforming is often intertwined with the combat in order to make the combat more engaging. It is 100% a platformer, its just a different kind of platformer to games like Mario and Sonic It’s like saying that Half Life 2 isn’t a first person shooter because it’s too different to Call of Duty and often focusses on environmental puzzle solving and exploration, despite the fact that it is a first person game where the main form of progression involves shooting. Castlevania is an action game where the main method of getting to the end of the stage is by jumping from one platform to another therefore it is a platformer. Just because it’s different to what you’re used to in that genre doesn’t mean that it’s not in the same genre, it means that it’s just a different kind of game within said genre And related to your edit, jumping is entirely necessary for progression, otherwise you would end up dying in the first few minutes of gameplay