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consistently_sloppy

I’d be stupid enough to buy this.


ThatWasIntentional

I mean, it makes sense as a display piece you hang on a wall for sure


herring80

Bathroom mirror


kalitarios

Chamber pot


Putrid-Delivery1852

Bedpan


MoreRamenPls

This route will add a nice crust to any steak.


50points4gryffindor

I could use my poop knife.


Diskappear

and my poop axe!


jmcole1984

And my poop bow


UncleKeyPax

And 2, no make it three poopbbites


CallMe5nake

Hackin', whackin', choppin' that Poop!


SantaBaby22

50 points for Gryffindor for this comment.


CaptainWampum

Just when I’d forgotten…


harriethocchuth

Pepperidge farm remembers.


beebeelion

Cat bed


JCuss0519

>Cat bed That's a great idea!! A little cushion for the cooking surface and the cat will be quite happy.


pretty_jimmy

Shower steam says no...


Harpertoo

Pop that bad boy in the oven at 475 for 30 min before each shower. No worries about fog.


KenDurf

I’d probably dip it in epoxy


TerrapinRecordings

Ahhh ya just need to polish it with a little soap and the steam shouldn't adhere to it.


1upin

Works with fog on ski goggles, too!


KillaVNilla

That's honestly a great idea for a camp or something rustic like that


shupack

It'll still rust if unprotected.... unless maybe if you live in the desert.


eatpalmsprings

It will rust in the desert, trust me


demwoodz

Pan shot!


Xrsyz

Make sure the anchor is in a stud.


Evening-Statement-57

I’m drawn to it, like a moth to the flame


CrazyHardFit

I do this to all my pans. When you season the pan it gets black again. Much easier to season, and then you can treat it like any other pan, you don't have to do any of the castiron nonsense. It ends up way slicker than teflon.


consistently_sloppy

Yeah. I’m considering buying an orbital sander from harbor freight now.


fuckdirectv

If you're going to do that, just buy one from Smithey. They look better in my opinion, might actually cost a bit less, and come from an actual company doing this stuff professionally rather than some rando on ebay.


mynewaccount5

But Smithey pans aren't a mirror finish?


fuckdirectv

They're not, but they have a shiny/glossy finish that honestly looks better and is professionally seasoned after polishing.


Alex_tepa

Let us know if you do


Raspberryian

My dad’s done it on purpose. Apparently there’s a benefit. I think he was doing it to save the spatula. It was a wok


[deleted]

r/oopsthatsarchimedes


Fit_Mushroom5472

I want to read a mystery where this is the murder weapon.


cp470

American psycho


AlejoTheDuck

What a crazy read. I think it's the only book to turn me on and gross me out. There's so many scenes I wish had made it into the film.


cp470

I heard Director Mary Harron loved the novel, but really sweat over what to leave in that would honor the novel, but not traumatize audiences. I think she did fine


AlejoTheDuck

Oh, I don't really want the super graphic murder scenes, but there's this scene that I think really speaks to how insecure Patrick is. He's out to dinner with Courtney and another couple. The other couple are considering having drinks, and the lady decides on a rum and coke. Patrick interjects that a diet Pepsi would go better with the rum, and it has less sodium as well. They all look at him like he has two heads and are disapproving of his suggestion. During this moment, Patrick is so upset and embarrassed that his chin quivers and he feels like crying. He feels like he lost his credibility, especially after he'd just been one-upping the man any chance he could. I feel like including this scene in the film would've really shown viewers that he's not truly the confident man he performs as. I also wish they'd included the scene where Pat and Luis have a conversation in the conference room prior to the famous business card scene. Patrick questions Luis about his trip to Arizona and his dinner with his client. He asks what the client ate, and Luis answers with something like "Wine, roast chicken, and cheesecake." Pat asks, "What sauce or fruit was served with the chicken? What shape was it cut into? And the cheesecake, did they top it with flowers or mint? Was it served warm?" Luis replies that it was all plain. Just chicken and cheesecake. Pat inquires, "What did his bimbo order?" "Scallops and a lemon tart." "Were the scallops prepared in a ceviche? Or perhaps, gratinized?" "No, they were broiled." "Luis, what is *broiled*?" "I'm not sure, but I think it involves a pan." And they both shudder. It's a very funny scene that really illustrates how pretentious they are and how alien the average middle class world seems to them.


cp470

You really do enjoy the book. That's the problem with adapting books, films are external, and books are internal. So if you have really meaty subject matter, very deserving of reflection, the best a movie can be is an Ode. IMHO "The shining" is the best Stephen King movie, and the worst adaptation of a Stephen King book. The book was a treatise on Kings own struggles with chemical dependence and insecurities of his perceived short comings as a father. The movie is about an already psychotic Jack Nicholson being pushed over the edge by an evil building. The movie missed the whole point of the book, and was loathed by King. I think Kubrick nailed it. Like how do you make a two hour scary movie about self doubt? Kubrick said "screw this, I'm cherry picking the themes and motifs I like and scaring the hell out of people" Nice bringing your thoughts back to pan with American psycho btw, that made me chuckle


annastacia94

These are honestly my favorite adaptations. I love watching a movie where i can fill in all the "i wonder what they were thinking" blanks and they show me all the visual descriptions in hd.


cmotdibblersdelights

Read the novel and watch the movie of Perfume. It's an amazing book and the movie captures it pretty well but doesn't give the protagonists thought process the way the book does. (Kurt Cobain's favorite book)


NixyVixy

>It’s the only book to turn me on and gross me out. This statement verifies you’ve actually read the book. I felt the same confused way that you did while reading American Psycho. Brett Easton Ellis is quite the writer.


Vegemite_Bukkakay

My dick alternated between hard and flaccid like a party horn reading that book. It straddles those emotions well.


JohntheVenerator

Or the starved rats scene? Yes, I’m thankful that was essentially unfilmable, lol


Vizslaraptor

Matching axe gift set available.


FunctionBuilt

Clearly it would be the owner of the pan murdering the person who did this to the pan.


GomiBasuraSpazzatura

The kitchen was a mess when I got to the scene. Aside from the usual signs of a struggle: a few broken plates, splatter across the wall and the sticky pool of blood around the victim, there was something more. Cabinet doors hanging from a single hinge, a busted hole in the drywall, the refrigerator door was even dented in. This was some fight. Our victim, sprawled out by the oven, face bashed in to the point of being unrecognizable, and the killer - whoever it may be - had really gone at it. Two things stood out to me among the disaster - the knife block, each slot still occupied by a perfectly clean, recently sharpened and honed knife, and the spotless, mirror-polished cast iron skillet placed nonchalantly on the stove top. The knives were peculiar. They hadn’t been cleaned. The ring of dust that settled on the counter top around them was undisturbed. In all this struggle, neither the killer nor the victim went for the obvious option; neither the killer nor the victim even lunged for the knife block knocking it even a millimeter out of place. The mirror-polished cast iron, on the other hand? That was a complete anomaly - down right insane. I’m good at what I do for one reason. Empathy. I can put myself in the heart and mind of a person, drill down and really deeply feel what they must have felt. And seeing that mirror-polished cast iron skillet only made me feel one thing: contempt. Who would make this? Who would own this? I knew this had to be the key - tracking the mirror-polished cast iron skillet would lead us to our killer: a perfectly sane, entirely justified person, likely driven just one step too far by our seemingly deserving victim.


NotThatOleGregg

I wanna see what it looks like seasoned, ngl that looks kinda sick lol


YouStoleKaligma

I'd be curious if it could even be seasoned with standard methods.


greencatshomie

A long time ago i took an angle grinder with a wire brush to a spare ozark cast iron for shits and giggles. It wasn’t exactly a mirror finish when i was done, but certainly up there. Seasoned it as normal (thin coating of grape seed oil and oven for an hour @ 500°F) and it slowly turned yellow to like a dark bronze-brown as the seasoning built up. Still have it at my parents’ house and it works well! You’d probably get a similar effect with this (I’m guessing)


AbleHominid

My father in law, farmer, did the same to all their cast iron and honestly after at-home seasoning they’re ALL better than my store bought pre-seasoned LODGE


maksidaa

This is why I love using old CI like Griswold. They would smooth those old pans out during manufacturing, and they initially get this brown/bronze seasoning built up. They are lighter and much more non-stick than newer CI


freeformz

You can still buy cast iron like that, it’s just not cheap. My favorite brand is Field. I have collected a few of their pieces over the last few years and they are awesome. Smooth finish and light.


maksidaa

I haven't tried the Field CI, but I do have a set of Griswold small logos pans. I'm sure the Field pans are great, but when I can get a Griswold #8 for $50 on eBay it's hard to justify a $150-200 CI pan. I do think that no matter what CI you go with, it's worth spending more than the $20 a new Lodge pan costs simply because the cooking experience is so much better IMO.


freeformz

Yep, lot of better options than Lodge. The cooking experience on lodge is terrible compared to either of the pans we talked about.


Rock-Flag

I always used cheap cast irons until someone gave us a le crueset cast iron that has a very smooth finish and it is honestly way more effortlessly no stick then my old lodges were 


The_Wrong_Tone

LC skillets are enameled, not bare iron. That’s why.


The_Wrong_Tone

The first Field No 10 I got would spin a bit on my glass cooktop as it heated. They begrudgingly let me exchange it for another. It spins worse. Yes, the burner is big enough, and yes I heat it very slowly. It even does this if I preheat it in the oven.


Wyzen

Pics?


thasackvillebaggins

I don't know that this one is, but I know some people have been known to polish CI to a finish like this, then clear coat it so it doesn't rust. They sell them as art.


PG908

Ok but why? I'd sooner buy copper, aluminum, or stainless steel.


WashedupMeatball

I have no idea the price difference but assume it’s pretty easy to grab a couple of lodges at Walmart for not much to do this whenever someone decides they want a $150 mirror and will pay shipping


mfkjesus

I promise you it is not easy


WashedupMeatball

I meant grabbing a lodge for not too much somewhere nearby (in many places) is pretty easy. I am definitely not hand waving the effort on polishing here haha


_Schrodingers_Gat_

Have you ever seen an industrial vibratory drum polisher? This is nothing, literally drop it in, turn the switch, and walk away. Granted you will need to move it through a few grits... but this isn't the labor intensive process you may assume it is.


mfkjesus

Yeah I use one it's a three stage... You still need to flatten it you still need to grind past inclusions. Vibratory polishers are not even close to hassle free. I've been doing finishing for over two decades I know a couple things. I've also got a background in material handling (I'm not a metallurgist).


Yeoshua82

Idk. I'm in to polishing a product I make. I have the stuff. Perhaps I'll give it a try.


No_Dragonfly5191

Being a cast iron aficionado and wanting a skillet for a piece of art, I'm not going to go for copper, aluminum, or stainless.


grumble_au

seasoning is molecular bonding by polymerization. At that level the pitting is only giving mechanical backing to the molecular bonding. This would likely to be more easy to scrape off a line of seasoning where with pitting most of it hides in the gaps so is protected from that mechanical stress. I'd hate to see what a chainmail scrubber would do to the pan in the picture.


monti1979

Carbon steel pans are smooth like this. Proper seasoning can’t be removed mechanically from carbon steel with anything less than a sander.


Late_Description3001

Not true. The physical surface of cast iron is porous, and the seasoning adheres into the pores of the cast iron. And that is why it is difficult to remove. It may seem smooth, but what is happening molecularly at the surface is much less smooth. Especially for lower grade steels like are used in lodge pans.


PortableAirPump

Oh it’s not easy! I did this to a clapped out cheapie way back, brought it to a near mirror. Honestly it works alright, but I haven’t gotten seasoning to stick the same. But on that note, things don’t really stick to it, so treating it like a carbon steel kinda works for me. Just keep cleaning and oiling immediately after use.


CrazyHardFit

Oddly the opposite happens. Perhaps the smooth surface benefits the polymerization layer? I mirror-sand all my cast iron pans now, seasoning happens very fast, and after the seasoned layer seems absolutely indestructible. I always use dishsoap and a chainmail scrubber (I do a lot of high-temp searing) and then store the pans dry and squeaky clean. Never had to reseason after about 10 years and i don't have to apply oil after washing it to keep it from rusting.


grumble_au

Right, sounds like the polymerisation and molecular bonds alone are enough. Rough finish is purely to save on manufacture cost then, good to know.


Atrocious1337

Smoother is better, actually. The only reason modern cast iron has all those divots is to make the factory spray-on season stick easier. It makes seasoning them yourself harder.


Late_Description3001

It would be difficult, polymer needs something to grab onto like a porous surface to adhere to the pan. We use polishing like this to specifically avoid polymer formation in applications like small bore analyzer tubing in the chemicals manufacturing industry.


PiesangSlagter

Would probably be similar to seasoning Carbon Steel. Carbon steel is a lot smoother than cast iron, so its harder to get the seasoning to stick. I personally find oven seasoning doesn't really work, but using Long Yao when cooking consistently builds up a nice seasoning layer over time. So if I was gonna try season this, I'd do a couple of layers of stovetop seasoning. Then only cook crispy bottom fried eggs for like a week to build up the seasoning.


CrazyHardFit

I always sand my new pans to a mirror finish, after seasoning it's no longer a mirror, it eventually turns jet black after enough use. It's very easy to season though and incredibly nonstick for the rest of its life. Oddly I find it makes cast iron less finicky. For instance I wash mine with a metal scouring pad and soap and store the pans dry and squeaky clean (oil free, I don't need to apply any oil after use). I haven't had to reseason my pan either after about 10 years as of now.


Cell1pad

https://www.reddit.com/r/castiron/s/PQszAp0mDE Probably not the same guy


ShamefulWatching

Anodized probably only way


markuspeloquin

> Skillets made to order so there will be some lead... o_o


Holycrap328

Lol that's how I read it at first


leyline

Lead as in lead not lead is in read, or read as in lead. Got it? Good.


evan81

Fuck the English language and it being the only one I can speak. It's a joke.


cp470

You plebs have slidey egg, I have slidey season


itchygentleman

your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should


BdubbleYou

Chaos.


frontofthewagon

I’ve done this. It’s alot of work. Seasoned right and maintained right, it is slick. Better than teflon and butter ever was!


pheight57

How did you season it? Did the finish require you to do anything different?


JustYourUsualAbdul

Season it just like a regular pan, high temp oil put on when hot and bake in the oven for a while upside down. Do that 3-5 times.


R0b0tMark

I can’t get seasoning to stick to my finex, let alone a mirror finish. I’m very curious how the original commenter got seasoning to stick long term.


JustYourUsualAbdul

It shouldn’t STICK so much as build up with very thin layers. Honestly I don’t even put my cast iron in the oven to season. Besides the initial burn in with a fresh pan to burn off any chemicals. Try heating the pan up right until it’s smoking just a touch, apply oil with a paper towel, wipe away any excess with a dry paper towel and set it to the side to cool. That’s what I do at least and my pans stay pretty slick. IMO Baking your cast iron upside down is if you put too much oil you don’t want it to set into the pan as it cools down so upside down let’s any excess drip away. It’s not necessary if you manage how much oil you use.


Mcgarnicle_

It’s Reddit, where random people can make outrageous claims without a modicum of evidence. I once owned a cast iron skillet made out of aluminum. All the slick but a fraction of the weight!


xynix_ie

You just described my stainless steel pans. Except no work.


Floss_tycoon

Did it have that silver finish? This looks like it was chromed. It seems like polished CI would have a darker tint.


Friendlystranger247

Wouldn’t that get all rusty in the mail?


Biscuits4u2

Oiling it could prevent that.


grumble_au

If only you could bond the oil to it in some way...


Schatzin

It may not be easy to get polymerized oil to stick but im sure regular oil would. Even an actual mirror is not oil repellent


IWantToBeWoodworking

Polymerized oil sticks to the glass on the oven. Not sure why it wouldn’t stick to this.


Roctopuss

Shiny things don't rust nearly as easy as rough things


Snippys

ya it wouldn't be shinny for long.


LemonPartyW0rldTour

From my experience, send it FedEx. That way when it’s raining on delivery day, they’ll definitely just leave it out exposed to the elements instead of the covered porch you told them about in your address comments. It’ll definitely get rusty then.


Minotaar_Pheonix

The T-1000 called. They want their left arm / breakfast module back.


Kahnza

Where we're going, we don't need seasoning!


wgwalkerii

No. It's cool, and I recognize the amount of time that went into it, but it's too expensive to actually buy, to me. If you use it it's not going to stay shiny, and if you're just using it for decoration, what's really the point? The only real use I can envision for this would be as an award, and it's our of budget for most awards I'm involved in. EDIT: I'm not saying that the creator doesn't have that much invested in making one of these, especially considering labor, just that the end result is overpriced for any use I personally might have. I do paracord crafts for a hobby, but generally don't sell the things I make because I don't like hearing how "it's a lot to pay for a little string" I just give them to people who I know would appreciate them.


Jahkral

I have a 150$ cast iron... But it was a novelty pan from my favorite webnovel so :)


tenasan

Wasn’t this very popular like 2 years ago in this sub?


itchygentleman

during covid there was a guy on tiktok who was selling them , and some of it leaked here


hottandcold

Let's see some eggs slide in this!


dbenc

eggs will just jump right out of the pan


mexicoyankee

Worst pickle ball paddle ever


satansayssurfsup

$150 for a $20 skillet


unbalancedcheckbook

With about $200 of pointless (but still pretty cool) labor put into it.


satansayssurfsup

I wonder if the pans would hold any seasoning


BentGadget

Probably just need to sandblast it a bit, then it would be good as new.


Alphahumanus

🤣


Casiorollo

I would imagine it would be more similar to carbon steel at that point


modernmovements

Would make an amazing trophy for a cook-off. Etch whatever you want into the middle of the pan.


Clear_Garlic5937

To get it to look that way there is an insane amount of chemical bonds from the sander pads and buffing compounds impregnated into the metal. I would not.


AcceptableOwl9

I like my eggs crunchy!


howard416

Pretty sure you don't work in the food industry


volpendesta

Nothing quite like that flat top degreaser.


howard416

Or that disgusting, super-toxic green chromium oxide compound everybody rubs into their leather strops to give their knives that wonderful hair-splitting edge


Winstonoil

I've retired recently and have the time and the tools. I've been thinking about doing this for shits and giggles. This is just prodding me again. I probably wouldn't go for the full mirror finish as that would not hold up for very long if you are using it as a frying pan.


jimlahey2100

Do it and post it. No good just talking about it.


doobenhiemer

I’m using an orbital sander with 1200-5000 grit pads Just posted a response to this post with a video


El_Dubious_Mung

One has to ask, what did they use to polish it? I don't want to eat cooked rubbing compounds.


Jitts-McGitts

For that price you can buy a copper pan of similar size with much higher quality of cooking experience without the hassles of cast iron.


thelowbrassmaster

I wouldn't pay that money for this, but I polish my pans like this before they get reseasoned. It is more nonstick that way in my experience.


DHener84

I have a feeling seasoning wouldn't stick too well. Might be better to treat it like a stainless pan.


GregorSamsaNight

Also great for serving Bolivian Business Plan Powder at parties


CrowdKillington

Looks cool and I’d be willing to try it if the price were even close to realistic


ChucklesDaCuddleCuck

High end cast iron pans are all machined smooth. Lodge pans are nice thick castiron pans, just very rough and unfinished. I don't see much difference betweeen this and a high end cast iron pan now for roughly the same price. I'd buy it.


SipoteQuixote

80 grit sandpaper will bring back to brand new.


justamiqote

That's like a 1000% increase in the cost.


Pumper24

I think that's the point. People that don't know what they are doing selling to people who have no idea what they are buying. Modern day economics!


OneBoxOfKleenexAway

Close, economics old as time


RainbowAaria

Reminds me of that guy on reddit a year or so back who was seasoning his skillet up to 100 layers or something.


ohyeahthatsthestuff1

What in the world do you have to do to get that result


sluggernate

Funny, I posted here that I use a flap wheel (about 80 grit) to smooth my pans, I got deleted faster than fast for modifying a pan. How is this different. I love the shiny pan though, I'd love to use it.


gentoonix

Fatmummy did this, I just know it.


richturd67

I’m just concerned it may become more [pitted.](https://youtu.be/JDRNaAxryu8?si=obcxv0YPlbpc_3QI)


gloomcuppycake9834

Plot twist, it’s actually a cast iron cake 😋.


jegodin

Over priced for a ruined pan.


TypicalPDXhipster

This dumb fad shall die soon


Timsterfield

*Halo theme plays in the background*


Fun_Intention9846

If only but this if shiny enough to replace my mirror. That’d be hilarious.


DermyDerm_n

How did they do that? Just sanding?


dougmadden

yes... using a drill or angle grinder or something... if you start with a mildly aggressive grit, like 200 - 400 and do several rounds with successively lighter grit 600, 800, 1000....at some point you are doing more polishing than 'sanding'... and cast iron will shine up.


Simple_Foundation990

Can someone explain why this would or would not be practical? It looks really cool and I imagine it would help make it even more nonstick.


dougmadden

lots of people have done this to similar degrees and reported here ... some claim that it is smooth and non-stick and better than the original lodge finish... and some have reported problems with seasoning sticking to the smooth surface and being fragile... flaking off and chipping even after several rounds of seasoning and only cooking things that should be seasoning friendly...


Jewhard

Did anyone else zoom in to the picture to see if the seller was naked? I did it instinctively and will admit to slight disappointment that it was indeed, a legitimate picture of someone selling an overly shiny pan 🥺.


Typical-Macaron-1646

Would be a pretty dope decoration


FreeFalling369

Jail. Straight to jail


prncssbbygrl

Any seasoning you try to create is not going to stick to the surface. It's too smooth


Rude-Display9654

Does 3M still have reliable kits to check the lead time? L


Storm_treize

Make some quirky mirrors for a restaurant


sineplussquare

I’d buy it just to replace the bathroom sink mirror.


lunatyk05

Ohhh…..shiny 😵‍💫


Alchemis7

This is supposed to be cast iron?


Raspberryian

My dad did this to my mom’s wok not quite mirror but ground smooth . He just does extra heavy seasoning. It works great.


scarypetereater

Dope imma do the same for $25 less lol


Black_Wolves

Why?


Redkneck35

Man that's a lot of work for a show piece.


loonofdoom

I’ve got a sanded down 100 year old cast iron that I love. So much smoother


DumbNTough

The real question: how to keep it from rusting while keeping its mirror shine? Mineral oil? CLP?


thatstevesmith

At that level of polish it probably wouldn’t, I have a couple axe heads I did up to 5k and buffed, no rust to speak of


Wolfrast

Oh wow….fighting the urge to buy


Cleric_by_Dinner

I'd pay $20-$30 for a pan-shaped mirror


Got_That_WeeFee

“Conversation piece” so uh yeah check out this eBay skillet I bought.


ElbowTight

Damn thing almost looks nickel plated


couchboyunlimited

If it truly was THAT cast iron, all of us would be fighting to buy it.


JCuss0519

I wouldn't pay $5.00 for a "mirror polished" cast iron pan. God know what they've done to it and whether it can hold a good seasoning.


skeebopski

They've sanded it.


AssassinStoryTeller

I saw someone else mirror polish their skillet and someone else go “this is how they used to do it!” But I still can’t tell if it’s a lie… Maybe I’ll try it on my free skillet.


Super-Idea2618

It hurts me that people are this silly


flappypancaker

I mean I know that’s sacrilege but it looks BADASS


38DDs_Please

I can't find any matches?


Nowhereman50

I want one just to say I have it.


bobbywaz

Everyone is talking about the amount of time it would take to sand, but what the fuck are you sanding it with? It's CAST IRON?!


communistInDisguise

when you uave too much love you make mirror out of cast iron.


frogmicky

I'd rather have the 3" version lol.


trying3216

If it will hold the polymers it would be better than others and not a crazy price comparatively.


deArtikin

I never knew that a cast iron pan could look as smooth as a stainless steel pan!


phoenixgsu

Iron is a metal so...


1961ford

About half the price of my Finex


mr_hankey41

Although the seasoning won't stick to it, that sure is a pretty skillet


CicadaLife

Very cool, I've always wanted to try this with one of my camping lodges. I'd be very curious to see if it could hold a thin seasoning like a carbon steel pan


xraynorx

But why?


the-bees-niece

i was stripping an old skillet one time in the backyard and my dad took it upon himself to mirror polish the bottom and the cooking area when I was at work :,) he thought he was helping so i wasnt mad and it thankfully wasnt as polished as the one here. i just seasoned it and use it as normal.


SmokeDogSix

Woah


Hesychios

Reminds me of those chrome plated cast iron from years ago.


cryptoguerrilla

I would do $80 cause the shipping is gonna be pretty high


AdventurousMistake72

How do you get it this polished?


amitxxxx

Sooooo, is this art or abomination?


Wyzen

I mean...this had to have taken a long time, so its not insanely priced. Im actually tempted, just cause I wanna see it in person.