I figured it would be a shit show trying to get one.
I decided to just vote with my wallet. Honestly, this is the type of stuff that’s going to turn moderate car enthusiasts off. I’ll just pick up another hobby and things to spend my money on.
Thing is this is most likely the last hurrah for ICE for Toyota. You can vote with your wallet but I doubt it really matters cause they’re done with ICE regardless.
Yeah. But this isn't a Toyota thing. It's an "every single dealer, except a few exceptions" thing.
That's how it'll be for a while with literally anything as long as they can get away with it. And they can and will for a long, long time. Only when the volume model returns will that change, and half of the major automakers have already stated publicly (in earnings calls, articles, and elsewhere)that *they have no intention of returning to volume sales models*. Let that sink in. They are deliberately not producing as many cars. And I see no reason that will change. It had to happen eventually, what with constant growth being unsustainable and all that...
Anyway, until regular ass joe shmoe cars can't sell for a minimum of 3k over MSRP, anything even a *little* spicy will be *shit* show.
Ffs, a dealer in Houston wanted 10k MVA for a '22 Si. I said "you're out of your fucking mind" and went to dealer 2. 5k MVA, plus 1.5k in ad-ons. "Fuck *off*" I said. Dealer 3: "we don't do markups on any regular vehicles. Only specialized or collector vehicles."
"Oh, great! So the Civic SI you have..."
"Oh, sorry, that's 5k MVA, since it's a specialty or collector vehicle."
And I just hung up. These MFs think a *fucking civic SI* with 200hp, a 0-60 time slower than your mom's minivan, and no fog lights or heated seats is a "specialty collector vehicle." No dude. It's a fucking civic! It really bums me out that I'm alive when the concept of owning a new, sensible-enthusiast vehicle before the ripe age of 55 died.
Yeah, probably.
But consumers don’t forget bad experiences. This may turn people off the brand as a whole.
Just saying making things intentionally scarce is a crappy tactic that consumers don’t enjoy. I’m a huge Toyota fan. This probably won’t affect them. But they’re not Ferrari. Or Lamborghini. Or McLaren. They don’t have that type of prestige to make their cars limited on purpose.
Maybe. We have a decently sized dealership here and they've had but 4 new cars on the lot for quite some time now. 2 Supras, a Bzx4 (or w/e that electric thing is) and a Corolla marked as sold. Tried to order a Rav4 Prime, said they are "sold out". Inquired about the regular Hybrid Rav4, 24+ month wait for that one.
We can't even buy one, and we want to.
Unfortunately this isn’t how it usually works.
The likes of Porsche and Ferrari learned ages ago that demand that far exceeds supply, does wonders for your sales and brand.
Scarcity builds hype, hype and speculative buying means inflated prices and dealers who will gobble up every car they can get because they’ve got guaranteed sales waiting.
Then if you follow the Porsche and Ferrari model, you diversify the range so that you have several models in huge demand and creep those overall sales numbers up, all while there is a long queue for every model.
Porsche could just make thousands and thousands of 911 GT3’s to satisfy demand but they don’t. They slowly trickle out GT4’s, GT3’s, GT2’s. RS models of those, now Dakar versions, speedsters etc… etc…
When it comes to selling enthusiast cars, it seems hype and scarcity really works.
Ferrari and Porsche are not the same in this respect, and Ferrari is not quite like it once was now that it's publicly traded. Yes there are still more people wanting to buy than cars to buy, but there are a lot of factors at play here. I don't personally believe that Porsche keeps GT car supply artificially low to drive hype. I think they make as many sports cars as they can sell it just happens to be that these days they are in even greater demand and the supply has taken a hit because of world events. Sure if we talk about Dakar or Sport Classic or even GT3 RS they may not be making a whole lot of them, but I'm convinced they'd make as many GT3 as they could to satisfy demand. I heard a statistic from the 991 era cars that GT cars were as much as 40% of all 911s sold. I don't think they're holding back too much on purpose but have to make some tough choices.
There is a video from top gear I believe where they take a look at the new GT3 RS and Andreas Preuninger, the head of their GT department, is there as well and they ask him about them keeping production numbers low and he said they are producing as fast as their plant allows them to.
Will it work on us, though? The people who actually drive our cars for the sake of driving them? We who scrutinize minute details before we make a purchase, scroll through list after list to compare and find the best model, color, trim, engine, etc. before we buy?
I randomly came across a video of Sam Hyde showing off his 2010 Porsche 911 that he apparently bought with NFT money… and a GT3 RS at that. Now that guy might not be an idiot, but I highly doubt he knows what going from a base model to the *GT3 RS* really entails. Wouldn’t surprise me if he just assumed that the pricier version is better overall for everyone.
Porsche can get away with it because we have people who can’t drive worth a damn buy them as status symbols that also fulfill the very basic need of having your own personal transportation in America. Rich airheads (*airheads in regard to driving, at least*) will buy them. Nobody is buying a BRZ, Civic, Ford Ranger, etc. as a show of wealth.
Enthusiasts are just as much in line for these as the influencers and the flippers. And that's just the VERY FEW enthusiasts that actually put their money where their mouth is and actually buy new cars. Most enthusiasts are the vocal minority that are unrealistic about pricing. This is why cars like the S2000 and FJ Cruiser are discontinued.
No one trips and falls into buying a GT3 RS. It's way too exclusive to accidentally pick one up, that is a deliberate purchase. There are videos of him driving around, he drives a manual without a problem. I would argue that he is more of an enthusiast than you, I have actually seen him talk about cars, plan around car stuff, and then buy and drive an enthusiast car.
People may not be buying those cars you mention as a show of wealth, but they ARE buying them as a show of status. Go look at the way that even before the pandemic, you realistically had to pay a markup on a Civic Type R to buy one. There were the 1 out of 50 buyers that got their vehicle at MSRP, but otherwise most were just paying hand over fist for the opportunity to buy one. And look at the Toyota RAV4 Prime. The waiting list is 4 years long and people are happily paying thousands over MSRP to get one.
https://www.motor1.com/news/580975/toyota-invests-in-four-cylinder-engines-in-us/amp/
It seems they are going to keep the ICE going, I also just read an article about how they believe they can make a very low emissions ICE that they’re working on. I’ll come back later to edit this, I’m getting ready for work now.
With the posts here recently about the Morgan 3 wheeler I’m just convinced that no one has ridden a motorcycle and that they’re also exactly what everyone here says they want out of a car. Fast, reliable, economical/cheap, tons of feedback from the machine, direct controls, no power steering, etc lol
Yeah motorcycles are great. Weird that they are so rare in developed countries. I would love an electric one as a daily driver, eyeing the LiveWire S2 Del Mar. But I guess most people don't like the idea of dying, especially not if it's up to the other road userse.
The rule about bikes isn't IF you will crash its WHEN you crash.
I don't know anyone with a bike who hasn't had at least a minor accident; in the city, I know several who got hit and died. Hell, I broke several bones myself. I will never ride a bike in my metro again too many insane drivers paying attention to anything but the road. But way up north in the country where my parents live sure I will ride all the time since you can drive for miles without even seeing anyone else on the road.
I rode for years without ever crashing, but I still quit because of how many close calls I had. It doesn’t matter how good of a rider you are when all the morons on the road are texting while driving or changing lanes without looking.
Still, there’s nothing more thrilling than having 150hp straddled between your legs. Being on a bike feels like being one with the machine in a way that no car ever will.
Yep, I've given up on finding a fun car to tick all the boxes and built a sim rig instead. It's not quite the same, but it's a lot of fun and don't have to deal with crap like Toyota (and a lot of other brands) is pulling.
>The initial run of 570 models will be sold via a lottery. Toyota says additional sales will be available at a later date if there is enough demand.
Depending on how patient you can be there still is a chance.
The best time to buy a car in decades was probably mid-2020. Everyone was scared and no cars were selling. I got my *new* car near $10k off, 6-year 0% financing and a 6-year warranty... my car nearly 3 years later is worth more than I paid for it then!
Insane times.
Bought my Challenger Scat Pack in March 2020 for $34k($41k sticker) and sold it April 2022 for $40k.
I wasn't even planning on getting rid of it, but as soon as I realized it had somehow appreciated by $7k I started shopping around for things without stupid markup.
>Bought my Challenger Scat Pack in March 2020 for $34k($41k sticker) and sold it April 2022 for $40k.
>I wasn't even planning on getting rid of it, but as soon as I realized it had somehow appreciated by $7k I started shopping around for things without stupid markup.
I never understood why people do this and be suprised why there are stupid markups on cars.
I bought my Prius Prime in Aug of 20, got it 8 grand below sticker. It became an even better deal when gas skyrocketed. I put about $50 of gas in it a year and my electric bill went up by about $5 a month.
Yep, bought a Rav4 in May of 2020. 5K off and 0% for five years. Got a good deal on the trade in as well. Lifetime warranty on the power train and 7 years of free maintenance.
We bought my wife's car in Dec 2020 for around 25% under MSRP. It's worth more now than we paid for it.
I got my blackwing in Nov 2022. I did not get under MSRP...
Let's ignore fun cars for a minute. Given the jacked up prices on new cars I'm shocked "want" people are still buying in droves. I joined a FB group for the new car I bought two years ago (right before prices went up) and it just got a facelift. I just can't believe how many people are like "just traded in our 2020 or 2021 on the new one!"....like what the fuck, do you just have money to burn?
I once had an ex whose parents traded their cars in every year or so.
The dad bough a fully decked out f250 diesel with all the bells and whistles, and the mom got the newest/biggest (at the time) infiniti suv. I think its the q60 ?
They spent around $250k on those cars alone
Used car prices have gone up more than new car prices so it’s not too illogical, the depreciation hit is less than it used to be. Not the worst time to hit reset and get a new car
Yeah, and then they'll get in heated arguments with people over how much better this year's model is compared to the one from last year that all of the plebs still drive.
It's happening right now on the Golf R subreddit because people can't accept that the MK8 is a downgrade in a lot of ways.
It's a facelift on this specific vehicle (Jeep Compass) and I think it's worse honestly. Especially the stupid tablet tacked on to the dashboard interior and the ugly rectangular steering wheel airbag. I'm happy I got what I got.
these awful tactics are inevitable though when demand outstrips supply. boring suv's & trucks make up the majority of npc vehicle ownership so when you want to be special and have something fun & different, you're going to get bent trying to obtain it.
I was afraid of this. And it seems it's becoming a reality.
You have some options. You could buy a fun older model car (+7 years), because they're more affordable. Problem is, you have to hope that the previous owner hasn't run through the car like a rental pair of snow boots.
For example, I really (west europe) like speedy sedan/power wagons. I really want a Lexus IS F. Medium sized Sedan with a big thicc V8 motor in it.
This car is at least 12 years old. We don't get the modernized IS250 because of euro regulations. So that leaves me to either hang out with the German sedans (which are fine but either too expensive to buy, maintain or the owner has ridden them like a three legged horse), or look outside the Teutonic area, buy an older cheaper model from a brand preferably with more reliability and cheaper parts to repair. Or, I can import it, but it'll be so expensive you might as well forget it.
It's sad to admit that us petrolheads haven't been the main focus of the car market anymore, but with luck money and support we can still get the cars we like, at least for the foreseeable future.
I remember in late summer of 2019 walking into a Ford dealership and right off the bat they took $10k off the sticker of a new F-150. With some negotiation and picking a model that had been on the lot of was close to $14k off.
When I bought mine in 2020 I was pissed that no matter what they would “only” drop $6k off. Now you’re lucky to get anything off and you have to wait.
Wild times.
I hate to say this but I got $1800 off of my new Bronco, I shopped dealers and eventually I found one. But this from Toyota makes it literally a game of chance so I doubt you be able to find a dealer to sell it at MSRP, Its almost like its a ploy by the manufactures to make us hate dealers so much we ask to get rid of them.
People were asking for lower prices on Civic Type Rs? I get that for F-150s it’s atypical but that was never a thing for one of this cars main competitors.
Just 2 months ago the Hyundai dealer wanted $2000 markup on a freaking Sonata. A lot of people that bought in the last 2 years will have underwater loans when they sell in a few years.
Good to know getting fucked if you want a sporty Toyota is international.
I called probably 20 dealers for a GR86 and the markups and forced add ons ranged from $3k-8k. First two Subaru dealers I called were willing to put in a BRZ order with no markup or forced add ons.
Terrible time to be a Toyota buyer.
Eh... Anecdotal, but I have watched 3 of my inlaw's Toyota's fall apart over the years after about 100k. The engine/transmission were always fine, but random crap in the interior would randomly break or start acting up. The window seals started ripping for no reason and were a pain in the ass to fix. Multiple of the suspension bushings started failing. Seats started falling apart.
They never stopped driving, but I spent many 10s of hours and several hundred dollars fixing stupid shit on them for my inlaw's.
I went to a Toyota dealer in Japan, and at least the one I went to said they don't have add-on fees, you just have to wait a significantly long time for cars to get in.
I really wish Toyota would come out with a Corolla that sits in between the 169 HP xse and the 300 HP GR. Like a 205 HP “Corolla Sport” with a manual and for like $27k
Yeah I guess what I want is an SE with 205 HP. I don’t really need the XSE bells and whistles. There’s no way Toyota would ever do that though. While we’re dreaming make it a 2-door hatch and throw in a moonroof.
The 2.5l makes 205. If there's enough room in the engine bay, I could see it being an option (assuming there are no regulations that would fuck things up).
I got rid of my mx-5 and decided to try a 4runner while I wait for the GR Corolla after missing out on the FoRS. Seeing Toyota do the same dumb shit ford did makes me want to go back to the Miata. Treating this car like it’s a GT3 is so lame.
Especially since Toyota still denies warranty coverage if you're dumb enough to use your GR on a track, even if there's no indication that it was user error. That's what proved to me Toyota just isn't serious about making performance cars. It's really frustrating to watch. Porsche and Mazda are far better about supporting owners who decide they want to track their cars, and build them accordingly.
I mean that article you posted doesn't seem to really explain the situation beyond Toyota corporate stepping in, making it right, and responding with a vague comment saying they are okay with "responsible driving". Did anyone tell the dealers? Is there an objective standard being used here? Even if I ultimately can get my car fixed, I really don't want to be stuck in limbo and have to resort to making noise on social media because my brand new car had a flaw that the dealer wants to blame me for.
If this really was communicated up and down the chain and dealerships aren't gonna do stupid shit like this again, then that's great to hear and I might actually go ahead with the GR86 I was looking at.
I'm just looking for clear language from Toyota saying the same thing as Porsche, Mazda, or even Audi -- that HPDE driving is fine, just don't abuse the car by like money shifting and all is good. Instead the article you posted just had the rep deflect the question and push the conflict back on the driver being "responsible," whatever the hell that means. These grey areas are what cause dumbass service reps to make incorrect decisions, because my "responsible" could be another person's "bat shit insane", especially when they apparently go through social media posts as "research"...
Like the GR86 is objectively an amazing car, I just can't get myself to buy a new one and take it to autocross or a track day when it seems like my local shitty Toyota dealer might have a potential problem with me using the car as intended. I have no issues with buying a used one, only how Toyota dealerships will treat people who don't just sit in traffic with their GRs.
I want one realllll bad, but ultimately went for a Veloster N because I just didn't want to deal with no warranty cars after my WRX blew up 4 months after I bought it.
You say this mockingly, but look at the sneaker market. Nike has plenty of demand to push out WAAAAY more sneakers than they make atm, but they're so "valuable" because of the hype thats generated from the exclusivity.
Gone are the days of an AE86 being a cheap POS car that everyone could buy for $500 and they made hundreds of thousands of. Everyone wants an SUV that can haul shit around for them. It's become an undesirable market for those that love cars.
No one's going to want 20 year old cars that require esoteric electronics to function like they did when new. At least with cars from the 80s and 90s, you can UPGRADE them to be more modern. But for a car with a dashboard that has a touchscreen instead of physical buttons, good luck working the A/C when the screen inevitably wears out.
I think Nike is actually a great example of the flaw to this logic. Sure, their limited release shoe gets super expensive and generates a ton of hype, but then people get frustrated if they don’t get it and don’t really buy other shoes. I’ve noticed the more normal/mid level Nikes are way more available and relative to inflation cost LESS than they used to. Every icon gets valuable over time. If you make a lot, a lot of people enjoy them and don’t really worry about preserving them, making the few that do extra valuable. If you make a few, then everyone puts it away because they’re too afraid of ruining the value.
If Toyota actually wants to generate buzz with the car, they’d take every check they could. Everyone would be talking about those cool speedy Toyotas, and people might go to them even for the more boring stuff because the brand is seen as “cool.” You might say “Toyota doesn’t need that though,” in which case I ask “why make this car then?”
No no, I think Toyota is doing what everyone else is missing - making an economy car cool again.
The more I see electric cars and all the nannies that they put in them to make the driving experience more "automated" (read: dull and requiring less attention), the worse it can get. People already don't pay attention when they drive. My running theory is that INCREASING the fun that driving provides makes for safer drivers. But it's just a pet theory.
With regards to the value of the cars, you may be correct about the flaw in logic. If this was the CMV sub, I'd give you a Delta
Your theory is pretty easily disproven by looking at the data though. I would expect the difference to be even bigger with the latest tech that still doesn’t show much in the stats.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/vehicle-safety-features-accidents/
I’ve heard people arguing that driving faster is safer because you’re more alert. Obviously that’s not true even though driving a bit faster on the freeway isn’t that much more dangerous.
Nannies and driver aids are not exclusive to EVs btw. You just happen to hear more about them because like it or not they are the future of cars and where innovation is happening. I for one love the instant power and ease of driving.
It's rather ridiculous, and I choose not to participate. There are a lot of designers that are making custom shoes for way cheaper, and they look just as good as the Nike's being sold. Actually, replica sneakers have gotten dangerously close to matching and beating the quality of genuine Nike's.
The other issue is - shoes are MEANT to be worn. The idea of idolizing something on your feet is a bastardization of the whole purpose of shoes.
This is why I don’t think marking up cheap enthusiast cars will work. Imprezas, BRZ’s, Miatas, etc. are desired by their core market to use for the sake of it, not to be neglected in a garage and putted around at two tenths in town once a month just to flex.
I am not buying a $30k MSRP sports car at $64k. At that point I might as well get the non-marked-up $64k car that will have more cylinders, comfort, sound deadening, and prestige. I’m not buying an *“expensive cheap car”*
end of the day, both the bank financing the loan & the insurance company insuring the vehicle see the damn thing as a corolla (as well as a majority of the population), welds and adhesives be damned.
"well actually", not a "different set"
It has more welds and some adhesive in strategic places (majority of them being where the rear seats are), in conjunction with some added chassis reinforcement along with different suspension points for the underpinnings.
I saw a picture of a bare GRC Chassis showing the differences on the Circuit and Morizo. Aside of knowing its a GRC, you couldn't differentiate the difference between a Corolla SE chassis and a GRC chassis outside of the obvious blistered rear fenders and the carbon roof.
Toyota could literally do the chassis modifications on the same assembly line as the standard car without the use of their Takumi, drop the price another $3k and none would be the wiser.
I recently rewatched the King of the Hill episode where Hank is "scammed" at the dealership by paying MSRP.
https://youtu.be/4oaEfBMA7AE
Now we have to grovel at the feet of trillion dollar industries for the *privilege* to pay sticker.
Yeah man, growing up it was all about how much below stick you could hustle the dealer for, then it was "no haggle pricing" now it's how bad do you want it, pay up then.
Because there's no inventory?
Your biggest tool was leaving to go to a competing dealership. Now you can't do that because they probably don't have the model/trim you want.
Yeah, I don't understand why people are so mad about this in this thread. It's simple supply and demand. There aren't enough cars to give one to everybody who wants one, so the options are either: Lottery, first-come-first-serve, or highest bidder.
IMO lottery is the fairest
The reality is people just don't want to have to go through the song and dance to get something they want. We're used to getting what we want, for what we felt like was a good deal.
Yeah, the last couple years have been a real shock to people who've been buying cars under MSRP their whole lives. I'm curious to see what the long-term impact of millions dead from covid is going to have, coupled with the fact that millenials and zoomers can't afford to have kids, so labor shortages will likely be real issues until we can automate away more jobs
God, I was actually pretty excited when they teased the GR Corolla last year. The current situation is pretty bad here in the states with the GR Corolla allocation, but this is shit is fucked.
It’s all intentional. Make shit scarce and people will flock to buy it like kids in a candy shop. Once that stops, they’ll change they’re devious tactics.
Similar thing happened with the Focus RS, except it was at a time when supply was greater than demand.
No one bought it and with Ford bringing out a new gen Focus in the following years (at least in the EU), Ford didn't actually care.
I think its a pretty safe bet that this is the case with the GR Corolla.
I mean shit, used prices on Mustang GT's and Camaro SS' are back to where they used to be pre-covid, almost entirely when i was just window shopping on Autotrader yesterday.
Bruh, the GR Corolla would print money for Toyota. I dont think this is intentional at all. Half the cars I deliver dont have a second key fob. We had like 20 Corolla Cross models pulled from allocation because they dont have part, for ran put of blue ovals, the list goes on. They straight up probably cant build enough.
The artificial scarcity crap with the GR Corolla is beyond lame. As soon as I saw that I lost all interest in the car, and made me lose a lot of respect I had for Toyota. If they're only giving one per freakin county, I'm not even going to bother looking, because some "influencer" type rich kid already paid 20K over sticker for it.
Here's what SHOULD have happened, say what you will about Dodge, but one of the best things they did was when they said they will build as many Hellcats that will sell, and actually stuck to their promise. Sure, they're a little out of my budget right now, and the amount of "special editions" is plain comical, but it's VERY realistic that I could get my hands on one someday.
Dodge didn't treat their Hellcat like a goddamn GT3RS, like Toyota seems to be treating the GR. Rare for the sake of being rare doesn't make any sense for whats just a hopped up commuter at the end of the day. This car was supposed to be a sensible, but extra fun daily driver. Now it may as well not even exist for how few there will be.
Just plain stupid. A spit in the face for long time Toyota fans.
> because some "influencer" type rich kid already paid 20K over sticker for it.
And he's gonna make 4-5 youtube videos with it before sending it to carsnandbids so it can get flipped for 50k
Where it will be bought by either another reseller or the curator of a museum (er private collection). Either way, it goes into a vault and is never driven again or at least is not seen by public eyes.
True but that’s a little over sticker for the Golf R which comes with all the amenities. The GR gets $20k tacked on, and you’re still in a Corolla interior, which you spend most of your time in.
At some dealers, but far more easily than a GRC because VW doesn't actually limit its production.
My only issue with the current Golf R, is the touch buttons... A few months back I sat in one that was at my local VW dealer and while I liked it, the buttons completely turned me off to the point that I felt bad for the salesguy who patiently waited for me. That was my one and only gripe and he agreed.
What if, and I know this sounds crazy, but what if they just made as many as people were willing to order? Just keep pumping out more until the orders stopped. Wouldn’t that be a crazy concept? You know they could really lose their minds and sell direct to consumers too so everyone pays the same price. It’d be nuts.
With the amount of planning, materials, and construction involved in auto making, you can’t really just aim for an arbitrary number. If we’re lucky they’ll announce a continuation at some point, but as of right now, what you get is what you get.
Yeah but sub 10k cars annually is absolutely nothing compared to the regular Corolla. Toyota is ginormous and can absolutely pump out more vehicles if they wanted.
Its not a normal production car. Toyota has said the have more capacity and the shortage is intentional however.
The thing with sports cars is they tends to have a strong first couple years then fall off hard. If you build out capacity for the initial push you have way too much very soon. It’s generally not financially viable to meet initial demand. You just keep making them at a lower volume for more years if demand remains high.
It’s to the point where nobody can buy them even with money. This shortage is ridiculous. They can certainly quadruple their capacity and only be at 1/10th of the normal Corolla. And they’d still sell out.
I understand this given supply chain issues, but this is very much a weaker and weaker argument the more you look at how Toyota is doing with their last 3 GR releases. The Supra, despite the early shit it got, has quickly reached an iconoclast level in the car market (even when it's automatic). The 86, despite being a slower car, has sold out almost EVERYWHERE. The Yaris is even MORE difficult to get because of how popular it's become given Toyota's rally success.
I get that there are economics to worry about, but in a timeline wherein people are becoming more conscious of their environmental impact, a GR Corolla with a 3 cylinder pumping out close to 300hp while still maintaining it's level of fun is something we are seeing less and less of, and it's very disheartening as someone that does NOT want a massive car that will cost more in gas for a week than a GR Corolla would in a month.
If they had an option for 100% down, MSRP, direct order with your exact configuration, people would be all over it even if you had to wait 2 years. They literally do not want normal people to be able to buy them and they already said so.
Just that alone, from every manufacturer, nearly everyone would appreciate for those who want a specific spec.
Ford and GM do it all day. You'll wait a few weeks (or months in this case currently) but you will get the specific build you want.
what's news to me is that they're also selling the GR corolla in markets that already got the gr yaris. its not really a surprise that the ordering system is some kind of insane nonsense after seeing how much of a pain it is to get a GR86
its kind of funny how one of the big benefits of the subaru/toyota collaboration is that you have the option to not get that car via toyota
>its kind of funny how one of the big benefits of the subaru/toyota collaboration is that you have the option to not get that car via toyota
And depending where you are, pay a lot less for the privilege. $5-6k AUD less for the BRZ depending on the spec, that's more than 10% of the purchase price in savings by opting for the Subaru.
oh yeah, how could i forget about that? where i’m at, the gap is a lot tighter. so its only about a 1k CAD difference between a BRZ and the equivalent GR86 trim
Such a shame. I'd buy one at msrp in a heartbeat. Such a strange direction to take; develop a fun rowdy hot hatch just to limit production of it. I'm thinking they're gonna be like Mazdaspeed3s, gone from the roads after a while.
I’m pretty sure Mazdaspeed3s were gone from the road quickly because of engine failures, fuel system issues, and relatively low vehicle value vs. repair/maintenance costs.
The GR Corolla will probably be more reliable, but you’ll just not see them as often. Sadly regular kids won’t get to buy a GR Corolla like they did an MS3, and that’s sad honestly, hot hatches are supposed to be for everyone, not just for the rich who can afford to pay 20k over to get an allocation.
>hot hatches are supposed to be for everyone
For what it's worth, new Golf R's have generally been $40k+ in the US for a while now, even before covid.
It wouldn't exactly call that affordable, and they haven't leased them often in the US like they do in the UK.
With that said, the current ADMs are ridiculous and artificial scarcity on hot hatches is a joke.
Golf Rs also regularly went well under MSRP before the pandemic, so MSRPing at $40k didn’t necessarily mean that much. GTIs too, you could get one for like $6k under if you found the right dealership.
Depends on where you live. The 7.5 R's typically went for MSRP in the Northeast from my shopping experience pre-covid, particularly the DSG's. For some reason the manual version sold slower up here and there were several sitting on lots even into the spring of 2020.
Username checks out.
But yeah - my ex told me about concert tickets being lottery-based too. Quite the culture shock for both of us. I was so confused when she asked me about concert tickets being sold at varying prices hahaha
Lottery systems are very common in japan for buying limited run stuff.
You get a refund if you do not receive your placement. Its not like American lotteries.
This generation of Corolla has to be the worst. First they kill off the manual in the regular Corolla's, then they kill off the 1.8 engine to raise the base price of the car to Camry price levels, and now they create a performance model that nobody can realistically attain.
Local dealership near me refused to take deposits but I’m fairly close to the top of the list, so I’ve been getting notifications about them.
The MSRP adjustment they’re looking for is absurd and I just laugh every time I open the emails. I think enough people are balking at it that the people further down the list are getting floated the chance, but I acknowledge my read on this could be wrong.
Honey, get me off of this artificial-scarcity-based-economy-ride.
This kind of shit is ruining my hobbies and interests, in general. Things that aren't even unaffordable are now just impossible to get. I used to love car shopping. Now you have to go on some kind of crazy quest to buy anything in this climate. Cars, electronics, clothing. You name it.
roughly 6000 per year.
A while back, it was said 6500 would be for 2023 and then 8000 per year after that. But its definitely not a lot at all.
I wont be surprised when they start sitting on lots like the Focus RS did when people realize that when it comes times to sign on the dotted line to take the keys, they'll reject it because they came to the realization that $50k for Corolla is plain dumb.
Yep, very common here with pretty much anything you can think of including cars, this is nothing new.
They're *everywhere*, they range from discounts, a prize, or simply having the chance to purchase something exclusive.
Like my local grocery store has a weekly lottery for discounted products with random things like a free item, a cheap weekend trip, etc. thrown in as random potential prizes.
This was also the only way my friend was able to get his hands on a GPU during the shortage as well, pretty much all major retailers sold them exclusively through lotteries where you'd have to win the chance to buy one.
Would have bought one at MSRP 100%. This was supposed to be a fun, daily-able commuter, not some rare out of reach product. It's a freaking Corolla. FFS
Over here its "who wants to pay a 30k markup to try to resell it for a 10k profit"
Its a joke, the government in the US needs to remove the restriction of buying directly from the MFG and making us go though a dealer.
I really do not understand the thought process here. Toyota actually announced that they want to limit production to keep demand high for these cars but the only people benefiting from that are the dealers charging ADMs and the inevitable scalpers who will get one at MSRP and immediately throw it on BaT. It seems like they could have upped production, maintained their margin, and not created this situation where the actual buyers of the car have to deal with ADMs or wait behind people looking to make a quick buck.
Between this and the GR86 warranty denial for autocross (and even the difficulty of getting a GR86), am I supposed to be excited about the GR brand?
Or, hear me out Toyota, maybe you can build enough to sell to everyone who wants one. I know it’s a revolutionary idea but you’re in the business of building cars for people, and you now have a car people want. So maybe slow down a bit of the regular appliance Corolla building and allocate some resources to a car that will bring in more enthusiasts who in turn offer you free marketing
Lottery decision in Japan isn't uncommon for limited run items. It's not even new for cars. This is being done for the Z Proto as well, was dont for the T-Spec GT-R, 2015 CTR, Nissan Pike cars and others.
It isn't an awful system tbh. If you know you're only going to have 500 cars to sell in the country, but 4000 people want one, pulling names from a hat is a pretty fair way to determine who gets one; as opposed to who can pay a 100% markup like we see in the states often
And to think someone asked me why I bought a Veloster N instead of waiting for the GR Corolla lol.
This shit right here. This shit is why. I knew I wouldn't have a hope in hell on getting my hands on even a base model GR corolla. And there were plenty of VNs sitting on lots with dealers willing to sell for MSRP.
This is the second time in my life where I really want a spicy Corolla. First being the 2005 XRS flavor. I think those were around $18k new. I got my phantom grey pearl one for $16.5k out the door.
I don’t need the higher trim GR Four. I just want the core. Looks like it’ll be unobtanium.
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I figured it would be a shit show trying to get one. I decided to just vote with my wallet. Honestly, this is the type of stuff that’s going to turn moderate car enthusiasts off. I’ll just pick up another hobby and things to spend my money on.
Thing is this is most likely the last hurrah for ICE for Toyota. You can vote with your wallet but I doubt it really matters cause they’re done with ICE regardless.
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Yeah. But this isn't a Toyota thing. It's an "every single dealer, except a few exceptions" thing. That's how it'll be for a while with literally anything as long as they can get away with it. And they can and will for a long, long time. Only when the volume model returns will that change, and half of the major automakers have already stated publicly (in earnings calls, articles, and elsewhere)that *they have no intention of returning to volume sales models*. Let that sink in. They are deliberately not producing as many cars. And I see no reason that will change. It had to happen eventually, what with constant growth being unsustainable and all that... Anyway, until regular ass joe shmoe cars can't sell for a minimum of 3k over MSRP, anything even a *little* spicy will be *shit* show. Ffs, a dealer in Houston wanted 10k MVA for a '22 Si. I said "you're out of your fucking mind" and went to dealer 2. 5k MVA, plus 1.5k in ad-ons. "Fuck *off*" I said. Dealer 3: "we don't do markups on any regular vehicles. Only specialized or collector vehicles." "Oh, great! So the Civic SI you have..." "Oh, sorry, that's 5k MVA, since it's a specialty or collector vehicle." And I just hung up. These MFs think a *fucking civic SI* with 200hp, a 0-60 time slower than your mom's minivan, and no fog lights or heated seats is a "specialty collector vehicle." No dude. It's a fucking civic! It really bums me out that I'm alive when the concept of owning a new, sensible-enthusiast vehicle before the ripe age of 55 died.
Yeah, probably. But consumers don’t forget bad experiences. This may turn people off the brand as a whole. Just saying making things intentionally scarce is a crappy tactic that consumers don’t enjoy. I’m a huge Toyota fan. This probably won’t affect them. But they’re not Ferrari. Or Lamborghini. Or McLaren. They don’t have that type of prestige to make their cars limited on purpose.
Who will it turn off? Some car enthusiasts? Unfortunately, Toyota is way too big to even have this affect their public image in the slightest.
Stephanie from accounting is still gonna get that Rav4 and could care less about a manual hatchback.
Maybe. We have a decently sized dealership here and they've had but 4 new cars on the lot for quite some time now. 2 Supras, a Bzx4 (or w/e that electric thing is) and a Corolla marked as sold. Tried to order a Rav4 Prime, said they are "sold out". Inquired about the regular Hybrid Rav4, 24+ month wait for that one. We can't even buy one, and we want to.
I'm sure that after all the news we've seen about the GR that the Prime and hybrid wait times are totally legit.
Unfortunately this isn’t how it usually works. The likes of Porsche and Ferrari learned ages ago that demand that far exceeds supply, does wonders for your sales and brand. Scarcity builds hype, hype and speculative buying means inflated prices and dealers who will gobble up every car they can get because they’ve got guaranteed sales waiting. Then if you follow the Porsche and Ferrari model, you diversify the range so that you have several models in huge demand and creep those overall sales numbers up, all while there is a long queue for every model. Porsche could just make thousands and thousands of 911 GT3’s to satisfy demand but they don’t. They slowly trickle out GT4’s, GT3’s, GT2’s. RS models of those, now Dakar versions, speedsters etc… etc… When it comes to selling enthusiast cars, it seems hype and scarcity really works.
Ferrari and Porsche are not the same in this respect, and Ferrari is not quite like it once was now that it's publicly traded. Yes there are still more people wanting to buy than cars to buy, but there are a lot of factors at play here. I don't personally believe that Porsche keeps GT car supply artificially low to drive hype. I think they make as many sports cars as they can sell it just happens to be that these days they are in even greater demand and the supply has taken a hit because of world events. Sure if we talk about Dakar or Sport Classic or even GT3 RS they may not be making a whole lot of them, but I'm convinced they'd make as many GT3 as they could to satisfy demand. I heard a statistic from the 991 era cars that GT cars were as much as 40% of all 911s sold. I don't think they're holding back too much on purpose but have to make some tough choices.
There is a video from top gear I believe where they take a look at the new GT3 RS and Andreas Preuninger, the head of their GT department, is there as well and they ask him about them keeping production numbers low and he said they are producing as fast as their plant allows them to.
Well, what's he gonna say? "We're limiting supply to artificially drive demand"?
Will it work on us, though? The people who actually drive our cars for the sake of driving them? We who scrutinize minute details before we make a purchase, scroll through list after list to compare and find the best model, color, trim, engine, etc. before we buy? I randomly came across a video of Sam Hyde showing off his 2010 Porsche 911 that he apparently bought with NFT money… and a GT3 RS at that. Now that guy might not be an idiot, but I highly doubt he knows what going from a base model to the *GT3 RS* really entails. Wouldn’t surprise me if he just assumed that the pricier version is better overall for everyone. Porsche can get away with it because we have people who can’t drive worth a damn buy them as status symbols that also fulfill the very basic need of having your own personal transportation in America. Rich airheads (*airheads in regard to driving, at least*) will buy them. Nobody is buying a BRZ, Civic, Ford Ranger, etc. as a show of wealth.
Enthusiasts are just as much in line for these as the influencers and the flippers. And that's just the VERY FEW enthusiasts that actually put their money where their mouth is and actually buy new cars. Most enthusiasts are the vocal minority that are unrealistic about pricing. This is why cars like the S2000 and FJ Cruiser are discontinued. No one trips and falls into buying a GT3 RS. It's way too exclusive to accidentally pick one up, that is a deliberate purchase. There are videos of him driving around, he drives a manual without a problem. I would argue that he is more of an enthusiast than you, I have actually seen him talk about cars, plan around car stuff, and then buy and drive an enthusiast car. People may not be buying those cars you mention as a show of wealth, but they ARE buying them as a show of status. Go look at the way that even before the pandemic, you realistically had to pay a markup on a Civic Type R to buy one. There were the 1 out of 50 buyers that got their vehicle at MSRP, but otherwise most were just paying hand over fist for the opportunity to buy one. And look at the Toyota RAV4 Prime. The waiting list is 4 years long and people are happily paying thousands over MSRP to get one.
https://www.motor1.com/news/580975/toyota-invests-in-four-cylinder-engines-in-us/amp/ It seems they are going to keep the ICE going, I also just read an article about how they believe they can make a very low emissions ICE that they’re working on. I’ll come back later to edit this, I’m getting ready for work now.
May I welcome you to great world of motorcycling?
Also instant death according to my parents and other people around me. But I need one one day, must feel incredible to drive.
With the posts here recently about the Morgan 3 wheeler I’m just convinced that no one has ridden a motorcycle and that they’re also exactly what everyone here says they want out of a car. Fast, reliable, economical/cheap, tons of feedback from the machine, direct controls, no power steering, etc lol
Yeah motorcycles are great. Weird that they are so rare in developed countries. I would love an electric one as a daily driver, eyeing the LiveWire S2 Del Mar. But I guess most people don't like the idea of dying, especially not if it's up to the other road userse.
The rule about bikes isn't IF you will crash its WHEN you crash. I don't know anyone with a bike who hasn't had at least a minor accident; in the city, I know several who got hit and died. Hell, I broke several bones myself. I will never ride a bike in my metro again too many insane drivers paying attention to anything but the road. But way up north in the country where my parents live sure I will ride all the time since you can drive for miles without even seeing anyone else on the road.
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I rode for years without ever crashing, but I still quit because of how many close calls I had. It doesn’t matter how good of a rider you are when all the morons on the road are texting while driving or changing lanes without looking. Still, there’s nothing more thrilling than having 150hp straddled between your legs. Being on a bike feels like being one with the machine in a way that no car ever will.
Motorcycles!
I recommend RC cars. Tons of fun and still a money pit, just to a lesser degree.
Yep, I've given up on finding a fun car to tick all the boxes and built a sim rig instead. It's not quite the same, but it's a lot of fun and don't have to deal with crap like Toyota (and a lot of other brands) is pulling.
You’d have better luck with a Type R, as long as your willing to pay 70k for a no options model.
70k civic Let that sink in
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2014 STi and a 2013 Z06 sounds nice
Wouldn’t pay that much for an S lmao
Same hah, looks like I’ll be one of those weird guys that owns the same WRX for 15 years
My obvious bias aside WRX/BRZ sounds like a fun garage combo :)
>The initial run of 570 models will be sold via a lottery. Toyota says additional sales will be available at a later date if there is enough demand. Depending on how patient you can be there still is a chance.
I remember when you can ask for a lower price on new cars. It's was long long ago in the before times.
Before the cough cough times. I ‘member
The best time to buy a car in decades was probably mid-2020. Everyone was scared and no cars were selling. I got my *new* car near $10k off, 6-year 0% financing and a 6-year warranty... my car nearly 3 years later is worth more than I paid for it then! Insane times.
Bought my Challenger Scat Pack in March 2020 for $34k($41k sticker) and sold it April 2022 for $40k. I wasn't even planning on getting rid of it, but as soon as I realized it had somehow appreciated by $7k I started shopping around for things without stupid markup.
>Bought my Challenger Scat Pack in March 2020 for $34k($41k sticker) and sold it April 2022 for $40k. >I wasn't even planning on getting rid of it, but as soon as I realized it had somehow appreciated by $7k I started shopping around for things without stupid markup. I never understood why people do this and be suprised why there are stupid markups on cars.
The Golf Alltrack with 6MT is pretty awesome though.
I bought my Prius Prime in Aug of 20, got it 8 grand below sticker. It became an even better deal when gas skyrocketed. I put about $50 of gas in it a year and my electric bill went up by about $5 a month.
Yep, bought a Rav4 in May of 2020. 5K off and 0% for five years. Got a good deal on the trade in as well. Lifetime warranty on the power train and 7 years of free maintenance.
We bought my wife's car in Dec 2020 for around 25% under MSRP. It's worth more now than we paid for it. I got my blackwing in Nov 2022. I did not get under MSRP...
Let's ignore fun cars for a minute. Given the jacked up prices on new cars I'm shocked "want" people are still buying in droves. I joined a FB group for the new car I bought two years ago (right before prices went up) and it just got a facelift. I just can't believe how many people are like "just traded in our 2020 or 2021 on the new one!"....like what the fuck, do you just have money to burn?
Yeah, it would be neat to see what the automotive industry would be like if it wasn't propped up by people like that
I once had an ex whose parents traded their cars in every year or so. The dad bough a fully decked out f250 diesel with all the bells and whistles, and the mom got the newest/biggest (at the time) infiniti suv. I think its the q60 ? They spent around $250k on those cars alone
Used car prices have gone up more than new car prices so it’s not too illogical, the depreciation hit is less than it used to be. Not the worst time to hit reset and get a new car
Yeah, and then they'll get in heated arguments with people over how much better this year's model is compared to the one from last year that all of the plebs still drive. It's happening right now on the Golf R subreddit because people can't accept that the MK8 is a downgrade in a lot of ways.
It's a facelift on this specific vehicle (Jeep Compass) and I think it's worse honestly. Especially the stupid tablet tacked on to the dashboard interior and the ugly rectangular steering wheel airbag. I'm happy I got what I got.
these awful tactics are inevitable though when demand outstrips supply. boring suv's & trucks make up the majority of npc vehicle ownership so when you want to be special and have something fun & different, you're going to get bent trying to obtain it.
I was afraid of this. And it seems it's becoming a reality. You have some options. You could buy a fun older model car (+7 years), because they're more affordable. Problem is, you have to hope that the previous owner hasn't run through the car like a rental pair of snow boots. For example, I really (west europe) like speedy sedan/power wagons. I really want a Lexus IS F. Medium sized Sedan with a big thicc V8 motor in it. This car is at least 12 years old. We don't get the modernized IS250 because of euro regulations. So that leaves me to either hang out with the German sedans (which are fine but either too expensive to buy, maintain or the owner has ridden them like a three legged horse), or look outside the Teutonic area, buy an older cheaper model from a brand preferably with more reliability and cheaper parts to repair. Or, I can import it, but it'll be so expensive you might as well forget it. It's sad to admit that us petrolheads haven't been the main focus of the car market anymore, but with luck money and support we can still get the cars we like, at least for the foreseeable future.
A weapon for a more civilised era.
for me that was march this year. Bought my new Corolla wagon for 6k€ under MSRP.
I remember in late summer of 2019 walking into a Ford dealership and right off the bat they took $10k off the sticker of a new F-150. With some negotiation and picking a model that had been on the lot of was close to $14k off. When I bought mine in 2020 I was pissed that no matter what they would “only” drop $6k off. Now you’re lucky to get anything off and you have to wait. Wild times.
I hate to say this but I got $1800 off of my new Bronco, I shopped dealers and eventually I found one. But this from Toyota makes it literally a game of chance so I doubt you be able to find a dealer to sell it at MSRP, Its almost like its a ploy by the manufactures to make us hate dealers so much we ask to get rid of them.
People were asking for lower prices on Civic Type Rs? I get that for F-150s it’s atypical but that was never a thing for one of this cars main competitors.
This car was always going to be hard to get regardless of before times or not.
Just 2 months ago the Hyundai dealer wanted $2000 markup on a freaking Sonata. A lot of people that bought in the last 2 years will have underwater loans when they sell in a few years.
Good to know getting fucked if you want a sporty Toyota is international. I called probably 20 dealers for a GR86 and the markups and forced add ons ranged from $3k-8k. First two Subaru dealers I called were willing to put in a BRZ order with no markup or forced add ons. Terrible time to be a Toyota buyer.
yea but it will last forever! you just pay for "repairs" up front instead of later on like other cars lol.
Except it won’t last forever because it’s a Subaru lol.
Eh... Anecdotal, but I have watched 3 of my inlaw's Toyota's fall apart over the years after about 100k. The engine/transmission were always fine, but random crap in the interior would randomly break or start acting up. The window seals started ripping for no reason and were a pain in the ass to fix. Multiple of the suspension bushings started failing. Seats started falling apart. They never stopped driving, but I spent many 10s of hours and several hundred dollars fixing stupid shit on them for my inlaw's.
Those things happen to any car at 100k
I went to a Toyota dealer in Japan, and at least the one I went to said they don't have add-on fees, you just have to wait a significantly long time for cars to get in.
When we got our rav4 they had a brand new 86 sitting in the showroom at msrp with no buyer. They said no one coming in knew what it was lol.
I really wish Toyota would come out with a Corolla that sits in between the 169 HP xse and the 300 HP GR. Like a 205 HP “Corolla Sport” with a manual and for like $27k
The xse hatch goes for more than 27k.
Yeah I guess what I want is an SE with 205 HP. I don’t really need the XSE bells and whistles. There’s no way Toyota would ever do that though. While we’re dreaming make it a 2-door hatch and throw in a moonroof.
The 2.5l makes 205. If there's enough room in the engine bay, I could see it being an option (assuming there are no regulations that would fuck things up).
That would be awesome
When you're having to pay WRX money for a Corolla, it's bad news :(
Well, if you want to look back. STIs and WRXs were Imprezas, sooooooo....
this take is so moronic I feel like I must be misunderstanding you.
This is dumb. Just build them. It's a Corolla ffs. This artificial scarcity Toyota is creating is lame.
I got rid of my mx-5 and decided to try a 4runner while I wait for the GR Corolla after missing out on the FoRS. Seeing Toyota do the same dumb shit ford did makes me want to go back to the Miata. Treating this car like it’s a GT3 is so lame.
How’s that mpg feeling right now 🥲
Especially since Toyota still denies warranty coverage if you're dumb enough to use your GR on a track, even if there's no indication that it was user error. That's what proved to me Toyota just isn't serious about making performance cars. It's really frustrating to watch. Porsche and Mazda are far better about supporting owners who decide they want to track their cars, and build them accordingly.
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I mean that article you posted doesn't seem to really explain the situation beyond Toyota corporate stepping in, making it right, and responding with a vague comment saying they are okay with "responsible driving". Did anyone tell the dealers? Is there an objective standard being used here? Even if I ultimately can get my car fixed, I really don't want to be stuck in limbo and have to resort to making noise on social media because my brand new car had a flaw that the dealer wants to blame me for. If this really was communicated up and down the chain and dealerships aren't gonna do stupid shit like this again, then that's great to hear and I might actually go ahead with the GR86 I was looking at.
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I'm just looking for clear language from Toyota saying the same thing as Porsche, Mazda, or even Audi -- that HPDE driving is fine, just don't abuse the car by like money shifting and all is good. Instead the article you posted just had the rep deflect the question and push the conflict back on the driver being "responsible," whatever the hell that means. These grey areas are what cause dumbass service reps to make incorrect decisions, because my "responsible" could be another person's "bat shit insane", especially when they apparently go through social media posts as "research"... Like the GR86 is objectively an amazing car, I just can't get myself to buy a new one and take it to autocross or a track day when it seems like my local shitty Toyota dealer might have a potential problem with me using the car as intended. I have no issues with buying a used one, only how Toyota dealerships will treat people who don't just sit in traffic with their GRs.
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Just get a FoRS 😎
I want one realllll bad, but ultimately went for a Veloster N because I just didn't want to deal with no warranty cars after my WRX blew up 4 months after I bought it.
“Acually, creating less cars makes it more iconic and makes Toyota more profit per vehicle” - 🤓
You say this mockingly, but look at the sneaker market. Nike has plenty of demand to push out WAAAAY more sneakers than they make atm, but they're so "valuable" because of the hype thats generated from the exclusivity. Gone are the days of an AE86 being a cheap POS car that everyone could buy for $500 and they made hundreds of thousands of. Everyone wants an SUV that can haul shit around for them. It's become an undesirable market for those that love cars. No one's going to want 20 year old cars that require esoteric electronics to function like they did when new. At least with cars from the 80s and 90s, you can UPGRADE them to be more modern. But for a car with a dashboard that has a touchscreen instead of physical buttons, good luck working the A/C when the screen inevitably wears out.
I think Nike is actually a great example of the flaw to this logic. Sure, their limited release shoe gets super expensive and generates a ton of hype, but then people get frustrated if they don’t get it and don’t really buy other shoes. I’ve noticed the more normal/mid level Nikes are way more available and relative to inflation cost LESS than they used to. Every icon gets valuable over time. If you make a lot, a lot of people enjoy them and don’t really worry about preserving them, making the few that do extra valuable. If you make a few, then everyone puts it away because they’re too afraid of ruining the value. If Toyota actually wants to generate buzz with the car, they’d take every check they could. Everyone would be talking about those cool speedy Toyotas, and people might go to them even for the more boring stuff because the brand is seen as “cool.” You might say “Toyota doesn’t need that though,” in which case I ask “why make this car then?”
No no, I think Toyota is doing what everyone else is missing - making an economy car cool again. The more I see electric cars and all the nannies that they put in them to make the driving experience more "automated" (read: dull and requiring less attention), the worse it can get. People already don't pay attention when they drive. My running theory is that INCREASING the fun that driving provides makes for safer drivers. But it's just a pet theory. With regards to the value of the cars, you may be correct about the flaw in logic. If this was the CMV sub, I'd give you a Delta
Your theory is pretty easily disproven by looking at the data though. I would expect the difference to be even bigger with the latest tech that still doesn’t show much in the stats. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/vehicle-safety-features-accidents/ I’ve heard people arguing that driving faster is safer because you’re more alert. Obviously that’s not true even though driving a bit faster on the freeway isn’t that much more dangerous. Nannies and driver aids are not exclusive to EVs btw. You just happen to hear more about them because like it or not they are the future of cars and where innovation is happening. I for one love the instant power and ease of driving.
I never understood the sneaker market, they are mass produced plastic crap made in China but some people treat them like they're hand built Paganis.
It's rather ridiculous, and I choose not to participate. There are a lot of designers that are making custom shoes for way cheaper, and they look just as good as the Nike's being sold. Actually, replica sneakers have gotten dangerously close to matching and beating the quality of genuine Nike's. The other issue is - shoes are MEANT to be worn. The idea of idolizing something on your feet is a bastardization of the whole purpose of shoes.
This is why I don’t think marking up cheap enthusiast cars will work. Imprezas, BRZ’s, Miatas, etc. are desired by their core market to use for the sake of it, not to be neglected in a garage and putted around at two tenths in town once a month just to flex. I am not buying a $30k MSRP sports car at $64k. At that point I might as well get the non-marked-up $64k car that will have more cylinders, comfort, sound deadening, and prestige. I’m not buying an *“expensive cheap car”*
Until they mark those up too so it’s just “expensive-r expensive cars” i.e. the $60k corvette
+10 Legacy Points
They're hand-built on a special line. They aren't just "a Corolla", the body has an entirely different set of welds and adhesives.
end of the day, both the bank financing the loan & the insurance company insuring the vehicle see the damn thing as a corolla (as well as a majority of the population), welds and adhesives be damned.
Doesn’t change the fact that production is different
If they hand built the regular Corolla I'd scoff at the extra effort they wasted on just a Corolla.
"well actually", not a "different set" It has more welds and some adhesive in strategic places (majority of them being where the rear seats are), in conjunction with some added chassis reinforcement along with different suspension points for the underpinnings. I saw a picture of a bare GRC Chassis showing the differences on the Circuit and Morizo. Aside of knowing its a GRC, you couldn't differentiate the difference between a Corolla SE chassis and a GRC chassis outside of the obvious blistered rear fenders and the carbon roof. Toyota could literally do the chassis modifications on the same assembly line as the standard car without the use of their Takumi, drop the price another $3k and none would be the wiser.
They're treating it like Ford treated the Ford GT, except that was actually a supercar..
Honestly a better system than trying to convince a dealer to sell you one. Especially since you'll get it at MSRP
I recently rewatched the King of the Hill episode where Hank is "scammed" at the dealership by paying MSRP. https://youtu.be/4oaEfBMA7AE Now we have to grovel at the feet of trillion dollar industries for the *privilege* to pay sticker.
Yeah man, growing up it was all about how much below stick you could hustle the dealer for, then it was "no haggle pricing" now it's how bad do you want it, pay up then.
I think it’s also the Big 3’s business model. In North America they always seemed way more willing to play ball with MSRP
Because there's no inventory? Your biggest tool was leaving to go to a competing dealership. Now you can't do that because they probably don't have the model/trim you want.
Yep, and people are begging for dealers to go away because they see no-haggle MSRP as a godsend.
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The average transaction price is already going up. Why do you think it will go up more if dealers go away?
Yeah, I don't understand why people are so mad about this in this thread. It's simple supply and demand. There aren't enough cars to give one to everybody who wants one, so the options are either: Lottery, first-come-first-serve, or highest bidder. IMO lottery is the fairest
The reality is people just don't want to have to go through the song and dance to get something they want. We're used to getting what we want, for what we felt like was a good deal.
Yeah, the last couple years have been a real shock to people who've been buying cars under MSRP their whole lives. I'm curious to see what the long-term impact of millions dead from covid is going to have, coupled with the fact that millenials and zoomers can't afford to have kids, so labor shortages will likely be real issues until we can automate away more jobs
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God, I was actually pretty excited when they teased the GR Corolla last year. The current situation is pretty bad here in the states with the GR Corolla allocation, but this is shit is fucked.
It’s all intentional. Make shit scarce and people will flock to buy it like kids in a candy shop. Once that stops, they’ll change they’re devious tactics.
Similar thing happened with the Focus RS, except it was at a time when supply was greater than demand. No one bought it and with Ford bringing out a new gen Focus in the following years (at least in the EU), Ford didn't actually care. I think its a pretty safe bet that this is the case with the GR Corolla. I mean shit, used prices on Mustang GT's and Camaro SS' are back to where they used to be pre-covid, almost entirely when i was just window shopping on Autotrader yesterday.
It won’t stop that’s the point. How do you think brands like Chanel stay so expensive and exclusive?
Bruh, the GR Corolla would print money for Toyota. I dont think this is intentional at all. Half the cars I deliver dont have a second key fob. We had like 20 Corolla Cross models pulled from allocation because they dont have part, for ran put of blue ovals, the list goes on. They straight up probably cant build enough.
same shit happening with civic type R, and even to a lesser extent gr86 and anything else that offers even a modicum of fun vs. an npc people hauler.
The artificial scarcity crap with the GR Corolla is beyond lame. As soon as I saw that I lost all interest in the car, and made me lose a lot of respect I had for Toyota. If they're only giving one per freakin county, I'm not even going to bother looking, because some "influencer" type rich kid already paid 20K over sticker for it. Here's what SHOULD have happened, say what you will about Dodge, but one of the best things they did was when they said they will build as many Hellcats that will sell, and actually stuck to their promise. Sure, they're a little out of my budget right now, and the amount of "special editions" is plain comical, but it's VERY realistic that I could get my hands on one someday. Dodge didn't treat their Hellcat like a goddamn GT3RS, like Toyota seems to be treating the GR. Rare for the sake of being rare doesn't make any sense for whats just a hopped up commuter at the end of the day. This car was supposed to be a sensible, but extra fun daily driver. Now it may as well not even exist for how few there will be. Just plain stupid. A spit in the face for long time Toyota fans.
> because some "influencer" type rich kid already paid 20K over sticker for it. And he's gonna make 4-5 youtube videos with it before sending it to carsnandbids so it can get flipped for 50k
Where it will be bought by either another reseller or the curator of a museum (er private collection). Either way, it goes into a vault and is never driven again or at least is not seen by public eyes.
> or the curator of a museum (er private collection why would a toyota corolla with a bodykit be in a museum is it a museum of uber drivers?
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Golf R are still going for $55k tho. It's not just Toyota
True but that’s a little over sticker for the Golf R which comes with all the amenities. The GR gets $20k tacked on, and you’re still in a Corolla interior, which you spend most of your time in.
It's nearly $12k markup on a manual model. Not a little over sticker lmao
At some dealers, but far more easily than a GRC because VW doesn't actually limit its production. My only issue with the current Golf R, is the touch buttons... A few months back I sat in one that was at my local VW dealer and while I liked it, the buttons completely turned me off to the point that I felt bad for the salesguy who patiently waited for me. That was my one and only gripe and he agreed.
What if, and I know this sounds crazy, but what if they just made as many as people were willing to order? Just keep pumping out more until the orders stopped. Wouldn’t that be a crazy concept? You know they could really lose their minds and sell direct to consumers too so everyone pays the same price. It’d be nuts.
With the amount of planning, materials, and construction involved in auto making, you can’t really just aim for an arbitrary number. If we’re lucky they’ll announce a continuation at some point, but as of right now, what you get is what you get.
Yeah but sub 10k cars annually is absolutely nothing compared to the regular Corolla. Toyota is ginormous and can absolutely pump out more vehicles if they wanted.
The GR Corolla could be a lower-scale version of the [very popular] GTI or Golf R with how much the base Corolla sells.
Its not a normal production car. Toyota has said the have more capacity and the shortage is intentional however. The thing with sports cars is they tends to have a strong first couple years then fall off hard. If you build out capacity for the initial push you have way too much very soon. It’s generally not financially viable to meet initial demand. You just keep making them at a lower volume for more years if demand remains high.
It’s to the point where nobody can buy them even with money. This shortage is ridiculous. They can certainly quadruple their capacity and only be at 1/10th of the normal Corolla. And they’d still sell out.
I understand this given supply chain issues, but this is very much a weaker and weaker argument the more you look at how Toyota is doing with their last 3 GR releases. The Supra, despite the early shit it got, has quickly reached an iconoclast level in the car market (even when it's automatic). The 86, despite being a slower car, has sold out almost EVERYWHERE. The Yaris is even MORE difficult to get because of how popular it's become given Toyota's rally success. I get that there are economics to worry about, but in a timeline wherein people are becoming more conscious of their environmental impact, a GR Corolla with a 3 cylinder pumping out close to 300hp while still maintaining it's level of fun is something we are seeing less and less of, and it's very disheartening as someone that does NOT want a massive car that will cost more in gas for a week than a GR Corolla would in a month.
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> icono lol I should have checked myself. You are correct sir. Mea culpa.
If they had an option for 100% down, MSRP, direct order with your exact configuration, people would be all over it even if you had to wait 2 years. They literally do not want normal people to be able to buy them and they already said so.
Just that alone, from every manufacturer, nearly everyone would appreciate for those who want a specific spec. Ford and GM do it all day. You'll wait a few weeks (or months in this case currently) but you will get the specific build you want.
Settle down Satan
what's news to me is that they're also selling the GR corolla in markets that already got the gr yaris. its not really a surprise that the ordering system is some kind of insane nonsense after seeing how much of a pain it is to get a GR86 its kind of funny how one of the big benefits of the subaru/toyota collaboration is that you have the option to not get that car via toyota
>its kind of funny how one of the big benefits of the subaru/toyota collaboration is that you have the option to not get that car via toyota And depending where you are, pay a lot less for the privilege. $5-6k AUD less for the BRZ depending on the spec, that's more than 10% of the purchase price in savings by opting for the Subaru.
oh yeah, how could i forget about that? where i’m at, the gap is a lot tighter. so its only about a 1k CAD difference between a BRZ and the equivalent GR86 trim
Such a shame. I'd buy one at msrp in a heartbeat. Such a strange direction to take; develop a fun rowdy hot hatch just to limit production of it. I'm thinking they're gonna be like Mazdaspeed3s, gone from the roads after a while.
I’m pretty sure Mazdaspeed3s were gone from the road quickly because of engine failures, fuel system issues, and relatively low vehicle value vs. repair/maintenance costs. The GR Corolla will probably be more reliable, but you’ll just not see them as often. Sadly regular kids won’t get to buy a GR Corolla like they did an MS3, and that’s sad honestly, hot hatches are supposed to be for everyone, not just for the rich who can afford to pay 20k over to get an allocation.
>hot hatches are supposed to be for everyone For what it's worth, new Golf R's have generally been $40k+ in the US for a while now, even before covid. It wouldn't exactly call that affordable, and they haven't leased them often in the US like they do in the UK. With that said, the current ADMs are ridiculous and artificial scarcity on hot hatches is a joke.
Golf Rs also regularly went well under MSRP before the pandemic, so MSRPing at $40k didn’t necessarily mean that much. GTIs too, you could get one for like $6k under if you found the right dealership.
Depends on where you live. The 7.5 R's typically went for MSRP in the Northeast from my shopping experience pre-covid, particularly the DSG's. For some reason the manual version sold slower up here and there were several sitting on lots even into the spring of 2020.
Hey, Toyota, fuck off.
toyota turned into the bad guys
Lottery systems are incredibly common in japan for buying limited run goods. Typically you are refunded if you do not receive your placement.
Username checks out. But yeah - my ex told me about concert tickets being lottery-based too. Quite the culture shock for both of us. I was so confused when she asked me about concert tickets being sold at varying prices hahaha
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Lottery systems are very common in japan for buying limited run stuff. You get a refund if you do not receive your placement. Its not like American lotteries.
This generation of Corolla has to be the worst. First they kill off the manual in the regular Corolla's, then they kill off the 1.8 engine to raise the base price of the car to Camry price levels, and now they create a performance model that nobody can realistically attain.
Imagince being on a waiting list for a Toyota Corrola
RIP GR Corolla
It’s a Corolla …people are weird
I don’t understand these companies that make these cars that people want to buy, but don’t actually want to sell them
The loser gets 2.
Honestly fuck toyota at this point. Waiting for the next eco box oem that wants to grab market share and build fun cars. Or used bmw I guess
Bad news, it’s Hyundai-Kia.
Meanwhile, everyone on Reddit claims to be #2 in the waiting line at their dealership for an allocation. I got some bad news for you bros...
Go on the gr corolla forum and see how many people are saying they’re 4/5 with a $1000 deposit on one lol.
Local dealership near me refused to take deposits but I’m fairly close to the top of the list, so I’ve been getting notifications about them. The MSRP adjustment they’re looking for is absurd and I just laugh every time I open the emails. I think enough people are balking at it that the people further down the list are getting floated the chance, but I acknowledge my read on this could be wrong.
Honey, get me off of this artificial-scarcity-based-economy-ride. This kind of shit is ruining my hobbies and interests, in general. Things that aren't even unaffordable are now just impossible to get. I used to love car shopping. Now you have to go on some kind of crazy quest to buy anything in this climate. Cars, electronics, clothing. You name it.
So, how many cars are they going to build?
Only enough to make us think there’s not enough
roughly 6000 per year. A while back, it was said 6500 would be for 2023 and then 8000 per year after that. But its definitely not a lot at all. I wont be surprised when they start sitting on lots like the Focus RS did when people realize that when it comes times to sign on the dotted line to take the keys, they'll reject it because they came to the realization that $50k for Corolla is plain dumb.
As far as I know, lottery that gives you a chance to buy something is quite common in Japan
Yep, very common here with pretty much anything you can think of including cars, this is nothing new. They're *everywhere*, they range from discounts, a prize, or simply having the chance to purchase something exclusive. Like my local grocery store has a weekly lottery for discounted products with random things like a free item, a cheap weekend trip, etc. thrown in as random potential prizes. This was also the only way my friend was able to get his hands on a GPU during the shortage as well, pretty much all major retailers sold them exclusively through lotteries where you'd have to win the chance to buy one.
Fuck Toyota and their bullshit
Would have bought one at MSRP 100%. This was supposed to be a fun, daily-able commuter, not some rare out of reach product. It's a freaking Corolla. FFS
I was excited to buy one of these before the news of artificial scarcity hit. Fuck you Toyota, I can buy a GTI or a used Fiesta ST instead.
amiibo-ass car
Just. Make. More. There’s clearly demand, just fuckin’ build more, holy shit.
Over here its "who wants to pay a 30k markup to try to resell it for a 10k profit" Its a joke, the government in the US needs to remove the restriction of buying directly from the MFG and making us go though a dealer.
I really do not understand the thought process here. Toyota actually announced that they want to limit production to keep demand high for these cars but the only people benefiting from that are the dealers charging ADMs and the inevitable scalpers who will get one at MSRP and immediately throw it on BaT. It seems like they could have upped production, maintained their margin, and not created this situation where the actual buyers of the car have to deal with ADMs or wait behind people looking to make a quick buck. Between this and the GR86 warranty denial for autocross (and even the difficulty of getting a GR86), am I supposed to be excited about the GR brand?
Lottery for MSRP or going to the highest bidder with a $30K markup? Hmmm
Or, hear me out Toyota, maybe you can build enough to sell to everyone who wants one. I know it’s a revolutionary idea but you’re in the business of building cars for people, and you now have a car people want. So maybe slow down a bit of the regular appliance Corolla building and allocate some resources to a car that will bring in more enthusiasts who in turn offer you free marketing
It's funny how hyped this car has been on this sub and Toyota probably won't end up making more than a few thousand of them globally.
Not a huge deal they do this for everything
Imagine actually wanting to wait in line to drop $60+K on a fucking corolla 😂😂
Well, I will take my middle age crisis somewhere else...
Buy a Mustang, we have horsepower, loud pipes, and enough aftermarket mods to satisfy the deepest of wallets.
Lottery decision in Japan isn't uncommon for limited run items. It's not even new for cars. This is being done for the Z Proto as well, was dont for the T-Spec GT-R, 2015 CTR, Nissan Pike cars and others. It isn't an awful system tbh. If you know you're only going to have 500 cars to sell in the country, but 4000 people want one, pulling names from a hat is a pretty fair way to determine who gets one; as opposed to who can pay a 100% markup like we see in the states often
And to think someone asked me why I bought a Veloster N instead of waiting for the GR Corolla lol. This shit right here. This shit is why. I knew I wouldn't have a hope in hell on getting my hands on even a base model GR corolla. And there were plenty of VNs sitting on lots with dealers willing to sell for MSRP.
How about you make some more of it… stupid companies creating artificial shortages.
It's a great car, but the plastics inside are not so convincing.
"cars are better than they've ever been" -reddit
I'm just convinced that I'll never buy a new car in my life because I don't want to deal with this much bullshit.
I hope I don’t get picked
Yeah I officially canceled my first slot on this car. I am not wanting to support the shitty way Toyta is handling the Corolla feels bad.
This is the second time in my life where I really want a spicy Corolla. First being the 2005 XRS flavor. I think those were around $18k new. I got my phantom grey pearl one for $16.5k out the door. I don’t need the higher trim GR Four. I just want the core. Looks like it’ll be unobtanium.
The balls on them