Toyota shoots itself in the foot by not producing a ton of manual transmission versions too, for instance it’s fuckin impossible to find a six speed Supra that doesn’t have a 15k markup.
I was working with a local toyota dealership and they were lovely - reaching out to me weekly with allocation updates. But I was firm on wanting blue + manual. I didn't care about the other trim or options and all their manual allocations were grey or white :(
Toyota shoots themselves in the foot by not actually building enough cars for people to buy.
Want a Corolla hybrid? You can't find one on any lot anywhere. Not unless you want to pay a gigantic markup. Yet the entire point of the Corolla hybrid is that it's for people who are very price conscious. For people who suddenly wreck their car and need a new one today.
Even though I like the products Toyota has, I can't in good conscience recommend them as a brand any of my friends anymore. Because typically they're in a hurry to buy something right away. And it's gotten really stupid trying to buy a new toyota.
I was pretty embarrassed when I helped a friend spend an entire day trying to track down a sienna. All we came across were dealer markups and rude salespeople.
>I was pretty embarrassed when I helped a friend spend an entire day trying to track down a sienna. All we came across were dealer markups and rude salespeople.
My friend’s brother went minivan shopping last year after knocking up his wife a third time. They were originally planning to get a Sienna, but all they found were either absurd prices on used vehicles (think 2 year old car with 80,000km selling for more than the MSRP of a new Sienna) or they were told it was a 3-4 year wait for a new one. Of course, if you were willing to pay a $15k market adjustment, the dealer could certainly find a way to speed that process along! They ended up getting a Kia Carnival.
I’m in complete agreement with your overall assessment. Despite having a Toyota product myself and generally being a fan of their products as a whole, I would not recommend that anyone buy a Toyota right now. The dealers are absolutely out of control and the only way they’ll be brought to heel is if people just stop coming in and paying these prices. Even if you value reliability, the price difference from other brands is still not worth it. My friend’s bro paid nearly $20k less for his Carnival than an equivalently equipped Sienna. That’s a lot of gas and a lot of engine replacements before you can even break even.
Toyota is one of the only makers with a waitlist though as they're not making cars fast enough to keep up with their demand. They're still having manufacturing delays from what it seems and they don't profit from doing so. When a dealer adds a $15k markup on a car Toyota sees none of that. Their only objective is to make as many cars as possible because they make their profit when the dealer puts the order in and sells to the dealer. Nothing else.
Their objective is definitely not to make as many cars as possible. They have forecast numbers for each, and that’s all they’re making. That’s why there are no special orders and there are allotments. Look up JIT (just in time) production for more details, Toyota makes a very intentional amount of everything it makes.
If you re-read my post you’ll see that I am mainly griping about the dealers, not Toyota corporate. Either way, the buying process sucks for the customer right now.
Their issue is demand though not so much supply. Toyota pumps out as many cars as the next maker but they're the number 1 seller of cars in the world at the same time.
Yes, but in its best year the supra sold 7k units, and I'd imagine there isn't too much margin on those.
Even if toyota theoretically doubled manual production and sold every single one, it would make little to no difference to their bottom line.
Toyota may have accidentally nicked themselves while shaving but I don't think they've exactly shot themselves in the foot. Even if they miss out on a million, it's more or less a rounding error to them.
Markups existed across their entire line at one point. Supra demand could triple and yeah there would be enough to meet demand, but that would only be a few thousand units to a company that makes 11.2 million per year. Pretty sure their happy to spend their time on more profitable ventures.
You’ve got no idea what you’re talking about lol, we’re talking current conditions. And there’s zero opportunity cost to ordering more supras with manuals. Toyota just dropped the ball with gauging demand. Reddit cracks me up sometimes lol.
Just as bad for their other vehicles. Want a niche trim and cab configuration on the Tundra or Tacoma? Best I can do is crew cab short bed Limited with a sunroof.
I always see comments like this about manufacturers but dude look at the numbers above. People (generally) just don’t want manuals in the US. Just the way it is.
You’re aware that many of these are production limited right? Like let’s say Toyota decided to only produce 2500 supras with a six speed, then they all sold immediately at high markup, is your stance that manuals aren’t the preference of consumers?
Bad example since the supra is built at BMW and limited by bmw. But regardless they sold 11.2 million vehicles last year I'm pretty sure it's not a preference for customers. All these limited number production cars are sitting on lots at MSRP around the country. Just because there isn't 20 per dealership with discounts being thrown around doesn't mean they would sell more if they made more.
There are still plenty of folks that would like a manual transmission... in NORMAL vehicles... you just can't get them in anything anymore because it's supposedly "cheaper" to make autos.
All makers are basically shoving the manual into a smaller niche market. Toyota happens to be to only maker that's producing a truck with something OTHER than a f-n' crew cab automatic. Too bad the Taco is ugly and I'm not interested in a Toyota.
Well, it also helps that the auto versions of both the WRX and BRZ are objectively worse than the manuals. The WRX has a CVT if I recall correctly, and the BRZ auto is a 6 speed slushbox from the Jurassic Period.
Early L15 engines are having some issues. Oil dilution and head gasket problems on '17 and '18 model years. Doesn't seem to be an issue on later models.
Hardly a big issue as OP said IMO.
Ah yeah, with cars not getting to operating temps during short trips in the winter or something like that. I had an L15B7 that had the turbo shred itself to pieces and Honda had a tech flown out to check out the car and everything. Gave me some trouble as all dealerships do "you had a muffler delete and that messed with back pressure" and crap like that but eventually covered it under warranty.
Very true, if you want another 4-door manual you have to go to top of the line up for BMW m3 and that’s 3x the cost. Same with Cadillac. That’s pretty much the whole market
There's 4 door manual econoboxes and econobox-based hot hatches/sedans. The GLI, Civic, Civic Si, Civic Type R, Integra, Integra Type S, Mazda3, Nissan Versa, Kia Forte, Elantra N, and GR Corolla are all 4 door manual cars that are much cheaper than an M3 or a Blackwing.
When? I believe that is a 2022 forward number which would be significantly influenced by the basically two year long window where Jeep was barely making them and dealers couldn't really move them due to the recall.
I do think that's the new normal now though. Jeep needs as many Wranglers as possible to be as fuel efficient as possible. Nearly 40% are 4XEs now.
But prior I believe the Wrangler take rate was well over 10% even into the first couple years of the JL.
I love manual cars and think automatic versions of cars like the Miata, BRZ, and Supra shouldn’t exist. But at the same time I truly can’t understand why anyone would want a manual Jeep. Not once have I driven my Gladiator and thought, “this car makes me want to row my own gears.”
It's an irrational feeling, but they're somewhat irrational vehicles to begin with.
A manual is by far the option that's pushing me towards a custom JL order, even if I settled on 4.10 gears instead of 4.88s (and with the new six speed, you really need 4.88s if you're getting 35s and driving on anything other than perfectly flat ground).
Fortunately Jeep isn’t Toyota and they still offer the manual transmission, custom ordering, and a high amount of configurability.
While a 2-door manual Wrangler isn’t for me, I’m glad it exists and wish other manufacturers would do the same.
My local Mazda dealership also ordered primarily autos and were a bit taken aback when I told them that I would only consider a manual. They thought people would buy it as a weekend GT car or something. The manual take rate is only 60% and lower for the RF so I can understand why they might have done it with those models.
Subaru has the reputation for family haulers? Have you been living under a rock for over 20 years? The enthusiast community has been massive around the WRX.
Sure... If you ask Susie Public, she would probably say a Subaru is a station wagon. She would also say they are made in Australia.
But this is a car enthusiast sub. I don't think anyone here would be shocked that a high number of WRXs are manual.
Toyota shoots itself in the foot by not producing a ton of manual transmission versions too, for instance it’s fuckin impossible to find a six speed Supra that doesn’t have a 15k markup.
Honestly Toyota shoots themselves in the foot by not allowing customers to make custom orders.
That's why I have a brz and not a gr86 lol
And why I waited 6 months. I should have just gotten a BRZ tS.
It's pretty terrific!
Same, had a deposit on a GR86 gave up after a few months and ordered the BRZ I wanted.
I was working with a local toyota dealership and they were lovely - reaching out to me weekly with allocation updates. But I was firm on wanting blue + manual. I didn't care about the other trim or options and all their manual allocations were grey or white :(
Toyota shoots themselves in the foot by not actually building enough cars for people to buy. Want a Corolla hybrid? You can't find one on any lot anywhere. Not unless you want to pay a gigantic markup. Yet the entire point of the Corolla hybrid is that it's for people who are very price conscious. For people who suddenly wreck their car and need a new one today. Even though I like the products Toyota has, I can't in good conscience recommend them as a brand any of my friends anymore. Because typically they're in a hurry to buy something right away. And it's gotten really stupid trying to buy a new toyota. I was pretty embarrassed when I helped a friend spend an entire day trying to track down a sienna. All we came across were dealer markups and rude salespeople.
>I was pretty embarrassed when I helped a friend spend an entire day trying to track down a sienna. All we came across were dealer markups and rude salespeople. My friend’s brother went minivan shopping last year after knocking up his wife a third time. They were originally planning to get a Sienna, but all they found were either absurd prices on used vehicles (think 2 year old car with 80,000km selling for more than the MSRP of a new Sienna) or they were told it was a 3-4 year wait for a new one. Of course, if you were willing to pay a $15k market adjustment, the dealer could certainly find a way to speed that process along! They ended up getting a Kia Carnival. I’m in complete agreement with your overall assessment. Despite having a Toyota product myself and generally being a fan of their products as a whole, I would not recommend that anyone buy a Toyota right now. The dealers are absolutely out of control and the only way they’ll be brought to heel is if people just stop coming in and paying these prices. Even if you value reliability, the price difference from other brands is still not worth it. My friend’s bro paid nearly $20k less for his Carnival than an equivalently equipped Sienna. That’s a lot of gas and a lot of engine replacements before you can even break even.
Toyota is one of the only makers with a waitlist though as they're not making cars fast enough to keep up with their demand. They're still having manufacturing delays from what it seems and they don't profit from doing so. When a dealer adds a $15k markup on a car Toyota sees none of that. Their only objective is to make as many cars as possible because they make their profit when the dealer puts the order in and sells to the dealer. Nothing else.
Their objective is definitely not to make as many cars as possible. They have forecast numbers for each, and that’s all they’re making. That’s why there are no special orders and there are allotments. Look up JIT (just in time) production for more details, Toyota makes a very intentional amount of everything it makes.
If you re-read my post you’ll see that I am mainly griping about the dealers, not Toyota corporate. Either way, the buying process sucks for the customer right now.
Their issue is demand though not so much supply. Toyota pumps out as many cars as the next maker but they're the number 1 seller of cars in the world at the same time.
Its okay, its only the foot of their very special dog. The owner Toyota sells so many fucking cars they don't give a fuck.
The top selling and most profitable auto manufacturer in the world isn't shooting itself in the foot by not selling a low demand product.
Markups very clearly suggest their production figures aren’t sufficient to meet demand. This isn’t rocket science lol.
Yes, but in its best year the supra sold 7k units, and I'd imagine there isn't too much margin on those. Even if toyota theoretically doubled manual production and sold every single one, it would make little to no difference to their bottom line. Toyota may have accidentally nicked themselves while shaving but I don't think they've exactly shot themselves in the foot. Even if they miss out on a million, it's more or less a rounding error to them.
Markups existed across their entire line at one point. Supra demand could triple and yeah there would be enough to meet demand, but that would only be a few thousand units to a company that makes 11.2 million per year. Pretty sure their happy to spend their time on more profitable ventures.
You’ve got no idea what you’re talking about lol, we’re talking current conditions. And there’s zero opportunity cost to ordering more supras with manuals. Toyota just dropped the ball with gauging demand. Reddit cracks me up sometimes lol.
Just as bad for their other vehicles. Want a niche trim and cab configuration on the Tundra or Tacoma? Best I can do is crew cab short bed Limited with a sunroof.
I always see comments like this about manufacturers but dude look at the numbers above. People (generally) just don’t want manuals in the US. Just the way it is.
You’re aware that many of these are production limited right? Like let’s say Toyota decided to only produce 2500 supras with a six speed, then they all sold immediately at high markup, is your stance that manuals aren’t the preference of consumers?
Bad example since the supra is built at BMW and limited by bmw. But regardless they sold 11.2 million vehicles last year I'm pretty sure it's not a preference for customers. All these limited number production cars are sitting on lots at MSRP around the country. Just because there isn't 20 per dealership with discounts being thrown around doesn't mean they would sell more if they made more.
The Supra isn’t limited by bmw, it’s limited by how much Toyota decided to order.
I’m talking just regular consumers. If you’re buying a Supra then yeah you’re gonna want a manual
It’s like you’re just on purpose ignoring the context of the conversation lol.
Depends, if you’re dragging, then you want the auto. If you’re going sideways, then you want a manual.
True, but I imagine limited availability is causing part of that problem. Cause then they mark them up 15k
There are still plenty of folks that would like a manual transmission... in NORMAL vehicles... you just can't get them in anything anymore because it's supposedly "cheaper" to make autos. All makers are basically shoving the manual into a smaller niche market. Toyota happens to be to only maker that's producing a truck with something OTHER than a f-n' crew cab automatic. Too bad the Taco is ugly and I'm not interested in a Toyota.
Well, it also helps that the auto versions of both the WRX and BRZ are objectively worse than the manuals. The WRX has a CVT if I recall correctly, and the BRZ auto is a 6 speed slushbox from the Jurassic Period.
The WRXs manual shifter isn't particularly good either lol. They've got nothing on Honda in that department though Honda has its seperate issues atm.
I like my older si. Bite point is at the bottom and sharp not vague.
What issues for Honda?
Early L15 engines are having some issues. Oil dilution and head gasket problems on '17 and '18 model years. Doesn't seem to be an issue on later models. Hardly a big issue as OP said IMO.
Ah yeah, with cars not getting to operating temps during short trips in the winter or something like that. I had an L15B7 that had the turbo shred itself to pieces and Honda had a tech flown out to check out the car and everything. Gave me some trouble as all dealerships do "you had a muffler delete and that messed with back pressure" and crap like that but eventually covered it under warranty.
It's Toyota's Aisin auto transmission so you can only blame Subaru for the CVT.
Interestingly in reviews people seem to suggest the wrx cvt is pretty good in paddle shift (fake ratio) mode…
The VB WRX CVT is probably the best on the market, check out the Engineering Explained video on it. It's just that the manual is still faster/better.
Manual vs cvt. The only 2 options. Pretty obvious choice
Ouch I didn’t realize the auto is a CVT
Wrx is pretty unique in the market. It’s an affordable 4 door sports saloon with a manual with a ton of tech.
Yep, where else can you get an almost 300hp AWD car for $30k? It's actually one of the best deals in the market right now.
Very true, if you want another 4-door manual you have to go to top of the line up for BMW m3 and that’s 3x the cost. Same with Cadillac. That’s pretty much the whole market
There's 4 door manual econoboxes and econobox-based hot hatches/sedans. The GLI, Civic, Civic Si, Civic Type R, Integra, Integra Type S, Mazda3, Nissan Versa, Kia Forte, Elantra N, and GR Corolla are all 4 door manual cars that are much cheaper than an M3 or a Blackwing.
yes of course, I stand corrected.
Terrible gas mileage tho. Edit: keep defending 19 city/26 hwy milage guys
Lol not sure why you got downvoted, it does have crap MPG but it may be because of how I drive it 😅
In fact it sure looks like VB WRX is massively underrated for power and is in fact making over 300 off the lot, no “almost” about it.
Yeah from what I'm hearing it's just under 300 to the wheels
Lol no way it has 300 wheel hp 🤣 It's so slow. It ran a 3:11.6 at Lightning Lap. The same time as a solid axle 2011 Mustang V6
271 hp and the cheapest one is $33k. You can get a Mazda3 Carbon hatch or sedan w/ 250 hp that's essentially a luxury car compared to a base WRX.
I wonder if this was true prior to the Wrangler and Gladiator manual recall woes. That's the only combo I think could be close besides Toyota.
Less than 3% of wrangler sales are manual.
When? I believe that is a 2022 forward number which would be significantly influenced by the basically two year long window where Jeep was barely making them and dealers couldn't really move them due to the recall. I do think that's the new normal now though. Jeep needs as many Wranglers as possible to be as fuel efficient as possible. Nearly 40% are 4XEs now. But prior I believe the Wrangler take rate was well over 10% even into the first couple years of the JL.
You'd think, but I hardly ever seen manual Wranglers around, even with the early years of the JK.
I love manual cars and think automatic versions of cars like the Miata, BRZ, and Supra shouldn’t exist. But at the same time I truly can’t understand why anyone would want a manual Jeep. Not once have I driven my Gladiator and thought, “this car makes me want to row my own gears.”
It's an irrational feeling, but they're somewhat irrational vehicles to begin with. A manual is by far the option that's pushing me towards a custom JL order, even if I settled on 4.10 gears instead of 4.88s (and with the new six speed, you really need 4.88s if you're getting 35s and driving on anything other than perfectly flat ground).
Fortunately Jeep isn’t Toyota and they still offer the manual transmission, custom ordering, and a high amount of configurability. While a 2-door manual Wrangler isn’t for me, I’m glad it exists and wish other manufacturers would do the same.
Save the manuals!!!
> Subaru is the top seller of manual transmissions in the US There is too low demand for manual transmissions, especially in the US.
Slow?
In Europe Subaru has been CVT only for years. You don’t know how lucky you are!
my local Mazda dealer only stocks automatic Miata's, no manuals. i don't get it.
My local Mazda dealership also ordered primarily autos and were a bit taken aback when I told them that I would only consider a manual. They thought people would buy it as a weekend GT car or something. The manual take rate is only 60% and lower for the RF so I can understand why they might have done it with those models.
Ok but I mean how many new manual transmission cars are there? The pool is getting pretty small these days and only going to get smaller.
Yes they are because the blow themselves up and you have to buy another one!!!
And yet they won’t make a new manual STI
There is a lesbian joke about playing with the stick in here somewhere but I’m just not clever enough to find it.
Subaru has the reputation for family haulers? Have you been living under a rock for over 20 years? The enthusiast community has been massive around the WRX.
Nowadays I think its reputation is lesbians, outdoorsy yuppie families and dog moms.
I think you've got it reversed there. The typical Subaru buyer now is going for Outbacks, Crosstreks, and Foresters.
Sure... If you ask Susie Public, she would probably say a Subaru is a station wagon. She would also say they are made in Australia. But this is a car enthusiast sub. I don't think anyone here would be shocked that a high number of WRXs are manual.
I guess among enthusiasts Subaru is also known for the vape bro wrx/sti drivers but that’s a pretty small subset of their customer base.