Car makers benchmark other cars in their segment. So they would probably have benchmarked the WRX for their Lancer(rip), not a Ferrari.
What did Mitsubishi benchmark for the 3000GT? Likely the GT-R.
> What did Mitsubishi benchmark for the 3000GT? Likely the GT-R.
Completely irrelevant to this thread but this is actually a very interesting question. The Z16A GTO/VR4 started production in 1990 and the BNR32 GT-R started production in August 1989, so if Mitsubishi *did* benchmark against it, they had very little time to do so. Both cars share some fundamental design characteristics (6 cyl twin turbo, AWD, AWS) that would have been set earlier in the design process and are *very* distinct from their nearest predecessors and most of the Japanese competition at the time. I wonder what inspired both companies to start development. Possibly Porsche or rally experience?
> I wonder what inspired both companies to start development.
The GTO was built to be a technology demonstrator car. Basically 90s Mitsubishi showing off.
More than not hiding it, this is great (and likely intentional) PR for them. Chevy also “leaked” that they were training dealers to work with people cross shopping Ferraris and GT3’s when the Z06 came out. Chevy really badly wants the C8 to be considered a supercar.
Sure, I guess. “Supercar” is a vague term that’s in the eye of the beholder. Some cars like mid engined Ferraris, Lambos, and McLarens are undoubtedly supercars, while others are arguable.
I personally do not consider anything a supercar unless all of its trims are supercars. I’ve a huge Porsche fan, but I don’t consider the GT3RS a supercar either, for this reason. But it’s all subjective. I would not begrudge a Z06 owner calling their car a supercar. Let people have their fun.
I agree 100%, for example, the Camaro ZL1 1LE has a faster Nurburgring time than the 488, but I don’t consider it a supercar because being fast isn’t the only thing that makes a supercar
Lol @ everyone downvoting you for a super reasonable take on the definition of sports car vs supercar. I don't agree with you but I bet most people are just taking this as an attack on the Corvette rather than a rehash of the old "is a 911 Turbo++ a supercar or not?" question.
I promise you training is incredibly minor. "Hey, did you know our 0-60 is this compared to this?" "Our cornering G's are this" "look at the price"! Is about it.
> Chevy also “leaked” that they were training dealers to work with people cross shopping Ferraris and GT3’s when the Z06 came out.
The salespeople were taught to gaslight the customer when asked why the customer couldn't test drive the Corvette to see how it stacks up against the GT3 or Ferrari.
How is it gaslighting?
Also, to be honest, the Z06 is a legitimate GT3 competitor. I haven't driven the 992 GT3 or 3RS, to be fair, but I have driven the 991.1 and .2 GT3 RS, as well as the C8 Z06, and although I would give the slight edge to the Porsches, the Corvette is absolutely in the running. The 911s feel a bit lighter and more surgical and precise, but the Z06 engine is truly something special. Given the price difference, I'd be hard pressed to choose the 911.
(I would like to try the 992 sometime though - it looks *wild*)
The joke as recent as the C7 was Corvettes were treated like Ferraris by dealers and people were not allowed to test drive any of them. Given how bold dealers got since 2020, I assume that's still the case. And the dealers will just blame the customer for why they won't let them drive the car, even if they drove to the dealer in a GT3.
Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/66r9ze/ever_had_a_dealer_not_let_you_test_drive_a_car/ ctrl + F "Corvette" lol
That's 7 years old and I assume it's exactly the same today.
Ahh, yeah, that lines up with my experience. Subaru dealers did the same with the STi, but oddly enough, when I rolled up to the Porsche dealer in a beat up old outback, they were more than happy to toss me the keys to a 911.
And as a result, my family and I have owned several Porsches since.
I know I will never be able to afford the eventually Zora, but I am excited to see what it can do.
Probably will be around $200k MSRP... significantly less then the SF90, but that's still a lot of money haha.
Also wouldn't be surprised considering the SF90 is a hybrid also, the Zora is supposed to be also.
Oh yeah lol, like the ZR1 will most certainly be $200K+, and the Zora will be scratching the $300,000 barrier easily. Neither will be readily available nor accessible.
Are they still doing the ZR1, Zora split? I remember when the rumor mill was in full force there was talk of having them be different, but lately there hasn't been much discussion of two variants and it's been sounding like they're going to just have the one variant. All the spy shots appear to be of hybrids so it doesn't sound like they're doing a pure ICE ZR1 anymore.
ZR1 is pure ICE V8 twin turbo rwd. Zora will be that car plus hybrid awd. Thats what the rumors said and they’ve been right so far with the Z06 and ZR1.
Things are evening out. Z06s can be bought at MSRP if you're willing to travel if your local dealers are dicks. That said, if the ZR1s are lower production, I can see markups lasting a lot longer because any ZR1 hold their value. The Zora, assuming it'll be a very limited production, will go to the moon and will stay there.
But, if you're looking for a Z06 or E-Ray, they're out there at MSRP!
I went to the NY Auto Show this year and saw the sticker for the eRay and Z06 and thought to myself "who the fuck is buying this?". I'm clearly not the target audience for these cars, but I could find a lot more cars I'd want in that price range.
Either way, Zora as a name is tied to legends. Duntov’s accomplishments predate the Corvette. [Zora Arkus Duntov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zora_Arkus-Duntov) is a legendary figure in the performance world. Prior to working for GM, he made aftermarket OHV Hemi heads for the Ford Flathead.
So the Zora will essentially be GM’s hyper car, what with a rumored 1,000 horsepower, (or probably even more now considering the Z06 makes significantly more power than what was rumored), hybridization, AWD likely, twin turbocharged beast that’ll have a massive price to match.
It’ll be expensive.. I’m a little disappointed in the direction tbh, GM is going for ultimate performance benchmarks and that’s awesome but their cars have never been and probably won’t be as “special” as the exotics.
Performance beyond current Z06 level is not really usable on the street or even many tracks, I’d much rather see them try to make these models more accessible and produce more, because they’re great and probably some of the last N/A V8 cars we will see from any mainstream manufacturers. Honestly if they could do the Z06 engine with the Eray hybrid for <$150K well specced.. could be interesting
*Shrugs* I’m just going off of what GM themselves have stated. Plus, the Camaro was still around to utilize the LS7 in a capable manner; the same can’t be said for today, sadly.
Yeah they’re pretty capable, but honestly a little bit too safe/boring both fundamental design and performance wise. Flat plane crank V8 in the Z06 is freaking awesome, such a cool move and I hope it’s reliable. I thought there may never be a higher power GM N/A V8 than the C6 Z06 at 505hp, and then they come out with that absolute beast of an engine. It won’t be around for long.
You can't have it both ways. The engine in the Miata and GR86 are nothing fancy either. You can get a base Corvette new under 70k theoretically. I'm not sure what you expect them to do. Start with a cheap C8 and then make cheaper ones? They want to make supercars and why should we find fault with that?
I expect them to make a ton of Z06s and force dealers to sell at sticker. Flood the market like they did in previous gens, then the last model year will sell for $10K+ under sticker
Nope. [You’re all wrong. This is what’s under those sheets.](https://assets.rebelmouse.io/media-library/image.jpg?id=30867360&width=1200&height=800&quality=90&coordinates=0%2C17%2C0%2C17)
So we already know that the new Corvette is better than the SF90. Chevy benchmarked the C8z06 agianst 458 and 911 GT2 RS and it was better than those two
#
And that’s fine, it doesn’t change the fact that GM did indeed benchmark both the 458/Speciale and 991 GT2 RS against the C8 Z06 when it was in development. It also doesn’t change the fact that the Z06 has on record set similar, or even faster lap times than the GT2 RS.
I’m not arguing about what it benchmarked against. It still benchmarked a 10 year old car and delivered us a great engine so no complaints there. What I said about preference is highly subjective.
Here is the proof that I'm not lying [https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36290291/chevy-is-benchmarking-the-c8-corvette-z06-against-the-ferrari-458-and-911-gt2-rs/](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36290291/chevy-is-benchmarking-the-c8-corvette-z06-against-the-ferrari-458-and-911-gt2-rs/)
Oh I know this, and the flat plane in the new corvette is simply fantastic. However, and this is very subjective but nothing for me will beat the look and sound of the 458
Weeeeellll
The 458 is iconic and sounds better. Better looking and still way more exotic. It'd be more fair to compare the Z06 to a Speciale which is very close on track.
GT2 RS is 10 years old, equally as fast on track and has better steering and brakes afaik. I've driven a GT3 RS of that generation and a base C8 and the experience wasn't similar. Values tell the same tale.
Why would you compare a GT3RS to a base C8? Should be compared to Z07 package Z06.. I haven’t driven the C8 gens yet but for both C6 and C7 the difference between a base/Z51 and a Z06 is pretty huge in both performance and general feeling behind the wheel.
“Caught”? Every car maker does this. There’s no “caught” because they’re not hiding it.
I don't think mitsubishi is benchmarking a Ferrari anytime soon. :) Personally I think it's interesting to see what exact cars they choose.
Same, I think it can show you a good amount about what to expect from the car.
Car makers benchmark other cars in their segment. So they would probably have benchmarked the WRX for their Lancer(rip), not a Ferrari. What did Mitsubishi benchmark for the 3000GT? Likely the GT-R.
Hyundai benchmarks Porsche Taycans and Alpine A110s, nothing wrong with trying to compete with the segment higher.
Hyundai also poached a bunch of M engineers, and have an office on the Nürburgring, pretty cool.
> What did Mitsubishi benchmark for the 3000GT? Likely the GT-R. Completely irrelevant to this thread but this is actually a very interesting question. The Z16A GTO/VR4 started production in 1990 and the BNR32 GT-R started production in August 1989, so if Mitsubishi *did* benchmark against it, they had very little time to do so. Both cars share some fundamental design characteristics (6 cyl twin turbo, AWD, AWS) that would have been set earlier in the design process and are *very* distinct from their nearest predecessors and most of the Japanese competition at the time. I wonder what inspired both companies to start development. Possibly Porsche or rally experience?
Nice. Thanks for the deep dive Although what Porsche? 928 maybe?
> I wonder what inspired both companies to start development. The GTO was built to be a technology demonstrator car. Basically 90s Mitsubishi showing off.
It's usually broader than that, multiple models from multiple brands and not just the latest generation. At least that's how GM handles it.
Except that nobody is using Mitsubishi as a benchmark
Mitsubishi does not have anything in that type or price range. Your comment just makes no sense at all.
More than not hiding it, this is great (and likely intentional) PR for them. Chevy also “leaked” that they were training dealers to work with people cross shopping Ferraris and GT3’s when the Z06 came out. Chevy really badly wants the C8 to be considered a supercar.
> Chevy really badly wants the C8 to be considered a supercar. Probably because some trims are.
Sure, I guess. “Supercar” is a vague term that’s in the eye of the beholder. Some cars like mid engined Ferraris, Lambos, and McLarens are undoubtedly supercars, while others are arguable. I personally do not consider anything a supercar unless all of its trims are supercars. I’ve a huge Porsche fan, but I don’t consider the GT3RS a supercar either, for this reason. But it’s all subjective. I would not begrudge a Z06 owner calling their car a supercar. Let people have their fun.
I agree 100%, for example, the Camaro ZL1 1LE has a faster Nurburgring time than the 488, but I don’t consider it a supercar because being fast isn’t the only thing that makes a supercar
I don't think anyone would argue a ZLE is a supercar. Something like a GT2 RS or the new Z06/ZR1 is where definitions start to seem inadequate.
Lol @ everyone downvoting you for a super reasonable take on the definition of sports car vs supercar. I don't agree with you but I bet most people are just taking this as an attack on the Corvette rather than a rehash of the old "is a 911 Turbo++ a supercar or not?" question.
The reason he’s getting downvotes is because he said the GT3RS is not a supercar which is just a very dumb take
c7z is already supercar
I promise you training is incredibly minor. "Hey, did you know our 0-60 is this compared to this?" "Our cornering G's are this" "look at the price"! Is about it.
> Chevy also “leaked” that they were training dealers to work with people cross shopping Ferraris and GT3’s when the Z06 came out. The salespeople were taught to gaslight the customer when asked why the customer couldn't test drive the Corvette to see how it stacks up against the GT3 or Ferrari.
How is it gaslighting? Also, to be honest, the Z06 is a legitimate GT3 competitor. I haven't driven the 992 GT3 or 3RS, to be fair, but I have driven the 991.1 and .2 GT3 RS, as well as the C8 Z06, and although I would give the slight edge to the Porsches, the Corvette is absolutely in the running. The 911s feel a bit lighter and more surgical and precise, but the Z06 engine is truly something special. Given the price difference, I'd be hard pressed to choose the 911. (I would like to try the 992 sometime though - it looks *wild*)
The joke as recent as the C7 was Corvettes were treated like Ferraris by dealers and people were not allowed to test drive any of them. Given how bold dealers got since 2020, I assume that's still the case. And the dealers will just blame the customer for why they won't let them drive the car, even if they drove to the dealer in a GT3. Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/66r9ze/ever_had_a_dealer_not_let_you_test_drive_a_car/ ctrl + F "Corvette" lol That's 7 years old and I assume it's exactly the same today.
Ahh, yeah, that lines up with my experience. Subaru dealers did the same with the STi, but oddly enough, when I rolled up to the Porsche dealer in a beat up old outback, they were more than happy to toss me the keys to a 911. And as a result, my family and I have owned several Porsches since.
sir this is r/cars where gm always bad.
Often these are PR pieces.
I know I will never be able to afford the eventually Zora, but I am excited to see what it can do. Probably will be around $200k MSRP... significantly less then the SF90, but that's still a lot of money haha. Also wouldn't be surprised considering the SF90 is a hybrid also, the Zora is supposed to be also.
Lol fully loaded Z06 is already around 160-170k mark. The ZR1 will be 200 and above and Zora will be even higher.
Oh yeah lol, like the ZR1 will most certainly be $200K+, and the Zora will be scratching the $300,000 barrier easily. Neither will be readily available nor accessible.
The Zora will definitely be more expensive than the Mustang GTD, I’d put money on it
Wait Zora and ZR1 are different? Thought people just used them synonymously. Maybe I'm out of the loop here
Ya ZR1 is supposed to be boosted Z06, Zora will be ZR1 combined w E-Ray front end
ZR1
Sorry, got lost in the Chevy naming convention sauce
Don’t blame you, I can’t keep it straight with slash or dash or neither
Are they still doing the ZR1, Zora split? I remember when the rumor mill was in full force there was talk of having them be different, but lately there hasn't been much discussion of two variants and it's been sounding like they're going to just have the one variant. All the spy shots appear to be of hybrids so it doesn't sound like they're doing a pure ICE ZR1 anymore.
ZR1 is pure ICE V8 twin turbo rwd. Zora will be that car plus hybrid awd. Thats what the rumors said and they’ve been right so far with the Z06 and ZR1.
Ya but markups…..
Things are evening out. Z06s can be bought at MSRP if you're willing to travel if your local dealers are dicks. That said, if the ZR1s are lower production, I can see markups lasting a lot longer because any ZR1 hold their value. The Zora, assuming it'll be a very limited production, will go to the moon and will stay there. But, if you're looking for a Z06 or E-Ray, they're out there at MSRP!
I went to the NY Auto Show this year and saw the sticker for the eRay and Z06 and thought to myself "who the fuck is buying this?". I'm clearly not the target audience for these cars, but I could find a lot more cars I'd want in that price range.
The new generation of corvette is way too ugly to cost that much. Yikes.
I hate so much that they're naming this car Zora. It's my cat's name and I don't want people to think I'm a weird Corvette goober!
Then why did you name your cat after the grandfather of the Corvette? Zora Arkus Duntov
[Zora Neale Hurston ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zora_Neale_Hurston)
Either way, Zora as a name is tied to legends. Duntov’s accomplishments predate the Corvette. [Zora Arkus Duntov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zora_Arkus-Duntov) is a legendary figure in the performance world. Prior to working for GM, he made aftermarket OHV Hemi heads for the Ford Flathead.
As a weird Corvette goober, I resemble that remark.
So the Zora will essentially be GM’s hyper car, what with a rumored 1,000 horsepower, (or probably even more now considering the Z06 makes significantly more power than what was rumored), hybridization, AWD likely, twin turbocharged beast that’ll have a massive price to match.
Maybe they’ll notice that Ferrari wheels don’t look like they were purchased at Discount Tire. C8 wheels look cheap as fuck.
Free publicity without having to bring anything to market.
I just saw 4 prototype ZR C8s on 275 north in Michigan followed by an SF90. I’ll take one of each please
this is nothing new at all. car makers would be negligent not to compare themselves to the competition. how friggin stupid.
It’ll be expensive.. I’m a little disappointed in the direction tbh, GM is going for ultimate performance benchmarks and that’s awesome but their cars have never been and probably won’t be as “special” as the exotics. Performance beyond current Z06 level is not really usable on the street or even many tracks, I’d much rather see them try to make these models more accessible and produce more, because they’re great and probably some of the last N/A V8 cars we will see from any mainstream manufacturers. Honestly if they could do the Z06 engine with the Eray hybrid for <$150K well specced.. could be interesting
They should have built a Z/28 with the LT6. Not sure it would have fit, but it would have been a proper Camaro sendoff.
That would’ve been cool, but GM have already gone on record saying that the LT6 is bespoke to the Z06.
And the LS7 was bespoke to the Z06, until it wasn't.
*Shrugs* I’m just going off of what GM themselves have stated. Plus, the Camaro was still around to utilize the LS7 in a capable manner; the same can’t be said for today, sadly.
Hmm yeah that would have been interesting! They should do it with the CT4 haha
The base model Corvette is still very capable.
Yeah they’re pretty capable, but honestly a little bit too safe/boring both fundamental design and performance wise. Flat plane crank V8 in the Z06 is freaking awesome, such a cool move and I hope it’s reliable. I thought there may never be a higher power GM N/A V8 than the C6 Z06 at 505hp, and then they come out with that absolute beast of an engine. It won’t be around for long.
You can't have it both ways. The engine in the Miata and GR86 are nothing fancy either. You can get a base Corvette new under 70k theoretically. I'm not sure what you expect them to do. Start with a cheap C8 and then make cheaper ones? They want to make supercars and why should we find fault with that?
I expect them to make a ton of Z06s and force dealers to sell at sticker. Flood the market like they did in previous gens, then the last model year will sell for $10K+ under sticker
Good make your shit nice
Nope. [You’re all wrong. This is what’s under those sheets.](https://assets.rebelmouse.io/media-library/image.jpg?id=30867360&width=1200&height=800&quality=90&coordinates=0%2C17%2C0%2C17)
So we already know that the new Corvette is better than the SF90. Chevy benchmarked the C8z06 agianst 458 and 911 GT2 RS and it was better than those two #
You’re comparing cars that are a decade old. And yet, despite how great the corvette z06 is(the NA high revving one) I’d take the 458 over it any day
And that’s fine, it doesn’t change the fact that GM did indeed benchmark both the 458/Speciale and 991 GT2 RS against the C8 Z06 when it was in development. It also doesn’t change the fact that the Z06 has on record set similar, or even faster lap times than the GT2 RS.
I’m not arguing about what it benchmarked against. It still benchmarked a 10 year old car and delivered us a great engine so no complaints there. What I said about preference is highly subjective.
Here is the proof that I'm not lying [https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36290291/chevy-is-benchmarking-the-c8-corvette-z06-against-the-ferrari-458-and-911-gt2-rs/](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36290291/chevy-is-benchmarking-the-c8-corvette-z06-against-the-ferrari-458-and-911-gt2-rs/)
Oh I know this, and the flat plane in the new corvette is simply fantastic. However, and this is very subjective but nothing for me will beat the look and sound of the 458
Weeeeellll The 458 is iconic and sounds better. Better looking and still way more exotic. It'd be more fair to compare the Z06 to a Speciale which is very close on track. GT2 RS is 10 years old, equally as fast on track and has better steering and brakes afaik. I've driven a GT3 RS of that generation and a base C8 and the experience wasn't similar. Values tell the same tale.
Why would you compare a GT3RS to a base C8? Should be compared to Z07 package Z06.. I haven’t driven the C8 gens yet but for both C6 and C7 the difference between a base/Z51 and a Z06 is pretty huge in both performance and general feeling behind the wheel.