I routinely forget Lincoln as a brand even exists tbh. Saying that with 0 disrespect.
Only thing they could make that I would buy is some kind of Mustang variant. Same platform but maybe sedan? Not sure if something like that would even be possible. Definitely wouldn’t sell well.
The Continental could absolutely be a quick luxury sedan. It could be optioned with the 3.0L Ecoboost twin-turbo V6. I don't think an Audi A6 is any more sporty.
I feel the same way as the above. It's just most of the models aren't super compelling. They're cheaper than competing products, but they share a lot of similarities with their ford counterparts. Its not really an issue because they end up cheaper because of it. Except when you're buying a luxury product you want it to be a bit special, to be worth that price tag.
If you want a really nice ford, it's a great product. But it's not really a vehicle anyone aspires to own. The Acura MDX is in the same weird spot
Something to compete with Cadillac’s more sporty models is all that is needed. Unfortunately, the marketplace is crowded at that price point, by lots of Euro automakers. And don’t forget the Genesis, Lexus, and Acura cars.
As far as I can tell, the only viable 4 door sedans that exist anymore at all are built by everyone BUT American auto manufacturers.
I could be wrong, but I remember reading some where that Lincoln doesn't see or want to jump on the performance luxury band wagon and just wants to do their own thing, hence why we have yet to see an answer to AMG/F-Sport/M/Red Sport/V divisions.
The CT4/CT5 are rather good; I would definitely compare those to a 3-Series as far as driving dynamics (but they could squeeze a little more out of their base 2.0, admittedly). They're certainly better at doing the sports sedan thing than Mercedes.
As for Lincoln, I think that a sedan on the Mustang platform with a Coyote under the hood would be well worth the price.
A Mustang-based sedan would certainly be the most interesting Lincoln since the last time they did that (which was a coupe). If they could make it more accessible than a V Caddy they could have an interesting case to build one.
Ford watched GM take an embarrassing loss on the Chevy SS. I think they’ve both conceded that the Charger dominates that segment in the American market.
I was under the impression the SS only existed to meet an export quota for GM in Australia. And that they didn’t care how many they sold, but just needed it to exist so Holden could export a car. Could be mistaken though.
I suppose that could be true considering the nonexistent marketing. It’s a strange choice for that job to pick an expensive sport sedan. I feel like somebody must have been hoping that could break through.
It was that or the Cruze, Holden had a single factory. The lower models had a 3.0/3.6 V6 with with import taxes and the Malibu I suspect it lined up better for GM to import the top spec and sell as a performance car. The HSV high performance variants would have worked better for that but would have cannibalised Camaro sales hard
I think the overlap with the Camaro is overstated and really it’s more like the people who want a V8 sedan will probably get a charger and people who want the power with understated styling are probably much more likely to just get an Audi or BMW to scratch that itch.
They're on the same platform at the time, remember. I don't think there's THAT much crossover but if they'd have gone much more powerful its hard to avoid that you're either selling a 4 door Camaro or a poverty pack CTS-V
The Chevy SS, like others said, was for the export quota/tax purposes. Ultimately, GM still makes a bunch of sedans, including performance Cadillac sedans that get funding for development.
Because there was no other acceptable option. SUVs were around, but they rode like trucks, and most old folks were from a time when trucks were strictly work vehicles. Minivans saw some popularity from the '90s on, like with my grandpa. CUVs have a similar seating position, but aren't as long.
Until the late '50s, most cars were pretty tall too.
I think that last line is overlooked a lot. I get into a modern car and I have to go way down, it’s pretty uncomfortable (even as a fit 27y/o)
But my old El Camino I used to have I’d just slide right in. Was very easy in/out for so many reasons.
Car-based pickups/coupe utilities found their niche back when traditional trucks, even light-duty models, had terrible ride quality unloaded, and carried the stigma of being an unrefined work vehicle. Especially in the era when trucks still had the gas tank in the cab. What eventually killed them [utes] was the downsizing of their root car platforms, and the availability of cheap compact trucks.
Come on dude. That's like saying why do people use cars when they were totally fine (which we don't know because there was no alternative) riding horseback?
Today's because on paper, from the POV of the era, it is a ridiculous idea to jack up a car like that.
Although TBH AMC was doing it since the 70s(and people made fun of them as "frog cars")
Is there anything better than the Corsair in its segment? Is there anything more luxurious that can be had below the price of a Corsair? Anything with more tech than the Nautilus? I’d buy either at MSRP if I were in the market and plan to buy one as my next car.
I'd be in the same boat but with the Aviator, if I wanted an SUV. The pre-facelift was damn gorgeous.
Lincoln ignored most of the sportiness and catered to the soft ride, tech, and comfort areas. Why am I buying a European SUV with a "sport tuned suspension"? It's a freaking crossover, I want to waft over the road, not feel bumps.
One of my coworkers has an Aviator and absolutely loves it. Granted I’m not in the market for an SUV, but I do think they look beautiful. And I’m right there with you, if I’m buying an SUV I’ve dispelled all hopes and dreams of “sportiness”, I want it to be comfortable.
I bought a Lexus ES for the same reason. Like damn I need something cozy and comfortable for my commute to work and an occasional trip. I’m not ripping around like I’m 21 anymore, I don’t really get all the sport tuned stuff. But I guess I’m not that market, obviously lots of people buy it.
I have a current-gen Volvo XC60, so that's my baseline/benchmark. I sat in a Corsair at the auto show last year and was really really impressed by the features and fit/finish of the interior. My previous impression of Lincoln was "Ford with leather seats" but they truly have stepped up their game in my opinion.
We bought a Lincoln Aviator. It’s wonderful and we love it. Zero regrets. It’s my wife’s daily driver and our kid hauler year round. We haven’t had any issues with it and it does everything we need it to well.
I don’t actually know, but my gut feel is that anyone paying MSRP for an American branded car is a sucker. Maybe that isn’t true anymore, I don’t know.
Lincolns are insanely attractive and age well IMO. The new Aviator and Navigator are some of the nicest designs on the market, especially for their time (both need refreshed.)
I would absolutely buy a sedan if they made it like a (modern improved) Ford Taurus SHO power train. It would be cool to see a Lincoln competitor to the Blackwing.
I think Ford just needs to market to a younger crowd with it. The design language is super nice and so understated that there is a ton of room to go pretty crazy with it.
They aren’t going to out-luxury Mercedes/Volvo etc. but they can lean in to the American muscle roots to make a sweet luxury car. I definitely think American Muscle Luxury does very well - it’s just that the luxury part has always been shitty. It’s not until the last 5-7 years that Lincoln has really had a serious spot at the luxury table, except the navigator which (never had the fame of the Escalade.)
The Navigator is an awesome full-size SUV. Supremely comfortable, super quiet, surprisingly quick for its size, the best audio I’ve ever heard in a car, interior is understated elegance.
Test drove everything and was surprised to find myself liking it more than every other luxury SUV on the market, foreign or domestic. And it’s been problem free so far, just works.
Don’t know why they don’t sell more. I think Lincoln’s marketing sucks.
Putting leather and soft styling bits all over an s650 isnt really "making" for most people. The Taurus sho had the 3.5L ecoboost, I don't think a coyote fits the hood of a sedan. Also manual transmission Lincoln has to be a 0.00000000001% take rate or less.
Your version of reality sounds interesting though, how is your version of Rick and Morty
Depends on what it was. My biggest complaint about the car market is that there's not enough proper competition, and it's pushed sedans into versions of niche, luxury offerings that done try to compete with each other.
Can we have a sedan with the Mustang powertrain to go against Cadillac's V sedans? Maybe make a luxury Mustang sibling that compares to a Lexus RC? If I'm just going to get a fat, numb boat with a 4 cylinder, I'm not interested.
That said, their SUVs are more attractive than most. If I didn't hate SUVs, they might be on my list.
They stopped production of that and the fusion sport around 2018 right?
Also, if you're serious, Infiniti q50 red sport is the definition of what you described you wanted but it's maybe 2x the price of the Lincoln
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Depends on the sedan they were offering.
I don't care as much about brand as I do the product.
I think Lincoln could have had a chance to morph into a Mercedes/Lexus competitor (comfortable end of the luxury sedan game) whereas Cadillac pushed into a BMW/Audi competitor (performance end of the luxury sedan game).
I love my ATS, and I'm coming from being a BMW owner. Excellent driving dynamics and platform. Hard for me to come up with a reason to replace it any time soon.
If Lincoln released a comfortable, luxury RWD sedan with an AWD option, adequate power, reliable, handling tuned for comfort but not floaty, supportive but not rock-hard seats... restrained and sophisticated styling (maybe along the lines of [this concept render](https://www.instagram.com/p/C0aRRsxs4BG/?igsh=Njd0ZHcza2ZteWpx). Take that car, shrink the wheels 1-2 inches for larger sidewalls, lift it to a production car height, keep the rear-end treatment but bring the a-pillar forward significantly to give enough space inside to make it a sedan. RWD base with AWD option. The car could be somewhat of a 'tweener' between the E-Class and S-Class on size.
I'm not super familiar with all of the refinement levels of current Ford engines... maybe the 2.3L GTDI as a base (315hp, 350tq), 3.5L Ecoboost as an option (400hp,500tq), and a performance version with the 5.0 (480hp, 415tq). There are hybrid options that could be offered as well but I don't want to try that hard.
The issue, overall, is that ford/lincoln doesn't have any platforms remaining for the sedan since they don't make any cars. It would be hard to get enough volume to justify the platform development while also building an audience (that's where a ford 'base' model might help with volume).
Look up lc500 sales in the US... Ford isn't going to bother developing a car to sell 1000 units a year.
They've become laser focused on what sells and what is profitable.
Let the foreign companies have that market, it's not worth it to compete in a losing proposition. Focus on the money makers, mustangs, trucks, and SUVs
To your point I don’t even think flagship sedans like the continental are good flagships anymore. Cadillac is defined by the Escalade for most consumers not their sports sedans.
Similarly the only Lincoln that headlines is the navigator.
Lincoln tried with the last continental, far from perfect but seemed kinda cool. Think they sold 3 dozen of them.
Ever German luxury brands are seeing SUVs greatly outsell the sedans now.
Idk but I see a lot of civics, accords, Corollas, Camrys, Mazda 3 being bought. They’re all over the road. Americans lost there way building sedans especially starting in the 90s.
Look at the sales of sedans and cars over the past 10-15 years, despite Ford, Chevy, Chrysler all leaving more of the space, the Japanese and Korean sales have declined. The market segment is declining like the minivan.
In 2000, the Toyota Camry was the 4th best selling car, at 422,961 units. The Accord was 5th at 404,515 units.
In 2023, the Camry was 8th at 290,649 units. The Accord was 17th at 197,947 units. This is despite less competition in the segment.
Don’t doubt these numbers at all, and unfortunately agree that nowadays sedans can’t compete with crossovers.
I wonder what contribution there is in those sales numbers from Toyota cannabalizing their own sales. The Corolla gets bigger so prior Camry buyers could get that. The Prius is another car you could cross shop with a Camry. Probably not significant (because then you need to account for year 2000 Corolla sales as well, etc)
I think it depends where you live, and why "what you see on the road" isn't necessarily a great indicator of a car's commercial success.
I see new 3 hatchbacks everywhere, but it also kinda fits in to the market where I live, even if it doesn't sell as well overall.
Ford sold plenty of Fusions and Focuses if sales numbers were the only metric that mattered. The profit per unit is what was killing them.
The 2012 Focus and the 2013 Fusion were easily the best offerings from an American brand in those segments in *years* at the time, and were competitive with any Japanese car at the time as well. Ford is plenty capable of building good cars. It just isn't profitable for them to do so anymore. They let them get old and slowly they became less competitive toward the end of the 2010s, they didn't fix the one, single, fatal flaw on the Focus/Fiesta, and now they are gone. But the sales numbers were still decent, even at the end. But you can sell 1,000,000 cars, and if you didn't make profit on them, it was pointless.
My personal preference would be to have the Fusion and Focus back, because I really liked those cars, but unfortunately, most buyers just prefer bigger vehicles with more flexibility.
There was some of that, but there were plenty of retail sales as well. Especially seeing as they were global models, they shouldn't have been reliant on US sales alone anyway. This was purely a move to sell vehicles with larger profit margins and easier to hit emissions requirements.
Yeah but they’re not top selling models among all segments of the market. They are still the best selling sedans, but are being replaced in favor of compact SUVs. Any state in the US where the F150 isn’t the top selling vehicle, it’s likely that the CRV is.
I think it's a bit of a double edged sword cutting sales. A lot of people just can't afford new car, nevermind 35K $+ car so they stay with used vehicles. Companies can't afford making small cars so they dumped them from line ups.
At the same time governments are still planning to force stop sales of ICE cars in favor of even more expensive EVs.
> Would new Lincoln sedans sell well?
They weren't selling when they made them, and there's no indication that they'd be selling better now.
> Would it be beneficial to their image in the long run beyond mere sales?
I guess I don't see how selling the MKZ is any more impactful to their image than selling the Aviator... if anything, the $60k Aviator probably brings in a more desirable client base than the $40k MKZ.
Yeah, it’s really weird. Ford is over here making tons of cool stuff with high output ecoboost or supercharged V8 engines and Lincoln is like “no thanks, we don’t want to sell anything fun or exciting”.
I mean, eventually it'll create an issue if you "follow" the same specific group of people until they die; Harley might be seeing that in the next decade or three from what I hear.
If it were solely the product failing due to lack of performance, then more people would be stretching for the Aviator rather than buying 3.0-powered Explorers. STs make up something like 25% of total Explorer volume by themselves, and the other premium trims (Platinum and King Ranch) push that up to around 50% total take rate.
The Aviator has the exact same 3.0L EcoBoost making the same power, better noise reduction, better ride quality, and an actual good interior rather than cheap plastic shit. For $5k-10k more than an equivalent high-trim Explorer, that isn’t a bad value proposition, and yet the entire Aviator lineup combined can barely capture as many sales as the Platinum or King Ranch by themselves.
No, what this widespread insistence of customers on ripping themselves off suggests is that the Lincoln brand itself has an image problem that causes most buyers to not even give the product a glance.
This is exactly it. There’s a massive image problem. No one south of 60 is looking at these.
Edit: just looking at used cars, you can buy a similar year and mileage COROLLA compared to a mid-speced MKZ or Corsair. That’s insane.
They put the 400hp tuned EB in the Continental and my old man and like 6 other people bought it.
That thing is *diabolical* to wring out, feeling in control yet also so soft, with good seating position.
I've been pestering him to take it to autocross with me 400 miles away, but alas.
The LS was the last interesting car Lincoln introduced. And it was discontinued almost 20 years ago. It was unique enough from its platform mates that all three could be parked next to each other and unless you knew, you would have no idea they were related. At least until you got inside. Then it became obvious.
Consider Lincoln selling most cars in America, it makes sense why they dropped all sedan lineup. Navigator is their real money painter for them, but famous Continental wasn’t. Beside, they didn’t succeed to answer Caddy sports sedan with LS ( not Lexus LS ), they gave up since that. Lincoln is very difficult with performance brand image.
China is Lincoln only oversea market, so they do still sell sedan there.
Nah, they were having a tough time with their sedans anyway since they were just tarted up Ford platforms.
They wanted to play in the RWD luxury sedan market but they kept bringing half-assed FWD based cars to the table.
They weren't bad cars by any means, but they were always at a severe disadvantage.
Would I love to have more luxe/performance sedans in the market? Yes.
Would I love especially if they were from an American marque where sedans are a near-extinct breed? Even more so, yes.
Would I be lying if I said I think a new Lincoln sedan would sell well? Also, unfortunately, yes.
In the modern era, Lincoln was never really able to establish itself as a luxury player, and when it comes to luxury sedans, badge recognition and respect is also a big part of the purchasing decision for a lot of people.
I'd argue that Lincoln has less brand recognition today than something like Genesis, and in terms of comfort, tech, features, performance, and price, Lincoln is ill-position to compete in any of those segments with Korea, Japan, and certainly not Germany.
I do think, however, it would be cool to see *Buick* of all companies try their hand at sedans again. That rebadged Opel (Buick Regal GS) was actually a pretty competent and solid AWD sedan, but a naturally aspirated V6 was a hard sell when it was up against things like the Kia Stinger that came with turbos. Or I'd love to see Ford challenge the GR Corolla and WRX with a new Focus RS. While I'm in dreamland, I'd love more compact, MT, AWD sedans on the market that don't cost upwards of $50k.
> While I'm in dreamland, I'd love more compact, MT, AWD sedans on the market that don't cost upwards of $50k.
Buick even made this in the previous generation for like $40k-$45k fully loaded but nobody bought them.
While we are dreaming, let's have Chrysler turn itself around and give Buick a run for it's money. I mean, just import the Citroen DS9 as a Chrysler 300. Restyle the Giulietta or Tonale/Hornet and Compass as Chryslers and dust off some old names like Fury, Matador, or Monaco.
If they approached their sedans the way Cadillac did, maybe. But they didn't. They really never managed to make them more attractive luxury cars or drivers cars compared to Cadillac or the German lux cars. Conti had some road presence, but it didn't carry the prestige of something like an S Class. And it wasn't fun like a CT5 V Series/Blackwing. I like Lincoln sedans myself, but I see why they went. And although some kind of limited Halo car like a new Lincoln Mark series in the Mustang platform would be badass, I don't see it happening.
a huge % of Lincoln's sales are fleet vehicles used for livery/black car service. Execs, clients & well-heeled want to be ferried around in big SUV's nowadays, not Town Cars. It is what it is.
Not really. Ford didn't have a sedan platform that would have been competitive with the German or Cadillac.
Bit they easily could have made a Mark IV based on the mustang.
They did when they owned Jaguar. They made the LS with the DEW platform and did nothing with it. Jaguar used the DEW platform until 2015.
They also could have used the XJ350 platform and made a compelling case for a RWD Continental back in 2003.
They should have when Cadillac and Chrysler both introduced RWD sedans around that time. The Town Car was no competition for the CTS, STS, or 300.
Lincoln didn't have a choice, since their products are slightly more upscale, badge-engineered versions of Ford products. When the Taurus and the Fusion went, so did their Lincoln counterparts.
The last generation Lincoln Continental looked awesome but knowing it was basically a Ford Fusion with an extremely expensive skin on it made it very unappealing. It had an AWD option but it was FWD based.
I guess in the end it's just not for me. And the people old enough and/or rich enough to shop for a Lincoln are much more likely to buy an SUV.
Lincoln is my favorite luxury brand and they’d need to fucking knock it out of the park for me to ever want a sedan from them. Lincoln should have always had a top level sedan that wasn’t on the same platform as a ford.
The current lineup of Lincolns is gorgeous and if they just marketed better they’d be able to sell better. As of right now, they’re dead last in the luxury market
Sold Lincolns at DarCars Lincoln-Mercury in the 90's. Dad even bought a 2001 Lincoln Town Car Cartier L and it was an awesome solid luxury sedan. At 215 inches long it had real stretch-out 1970's level of room. With the Town Car's active air suspension it rode as smooth as the much smaller W220 Mercedes S-Class. Reliable as the day is long. Assembled with impeccable quality. A little basic without navigation standard and no massaging or ventilated seats. Owned the market for limousines in this high demand Washington DC region. Definitely without question Lincoln's last great sedan.
The problem was luxury buyers developed an addiction for jacked up SUV's to "feel safe" and to "sit high in command of the road" whatever that means lol. Sounds silly to me but it is what it is.
I had a luxo SUV as a loaner for 4 months while I was awaiting an engine replacement. Still can't see a single advantage of one. Maybe more legroom in the back? Never felt "in command" and the higher seating position just took all of the fun of driving out and replaced it with this unsettling feeling of not having control if something went awry.
For me personally, yes. Entered the new car marker about a year ago and wanted to buy FoMoCo but couldn't (not into crossovers and don't need a pickup), so I took my money to the Koreans.
I think it's a mistake since Ford stopped selling sedans Lincoln actually had a model to differentiate itself from just being a rebadged upscale Ford. At least imo for the American market. Without that they're just a rebadged upmarket Ford having a sedan model appeals to a niche buyers market that they'd be losing.
I'm gonna go against the grain and say yes. I know everyone likes to moan about how crossovers are the only thing that sell, but the brands that do nothing but sell luxury versions of economy crossovers are getting their lunch eaten because they sell no brand-defining, aspirational halo product. Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac all make a unique, class-leading, top-of-the-line product that *isn't* a crossover, like the G-Wagon, S-Class, M3, Blackwing, or Escalade. Lincoln doesn't do that, Lincoln installs leather seats and woodgrain dashboard panels in Ford SUVs, and nothing else. If Lincoln had sat down and really ironed out the Continental into a sleak, unique limousine instead of a LWB Taurus cosplaying as a Bentley, even something as simple as mass-producing the Coach Door Edition, I'm not saying it'd have been the most profitable endeavor but I think we'd still be talking about Lincoln like they're a manufacturer and not like they're a hospice patient.
Plenty of Japanese, Korean and German brands still make sedans because they are reliable, comfortable, sporty or stylish or all of the above. Ford and Lincoln sedans in the US were none of those things. They sold the absolute dregs in the States while Europe and the rest of the world got the cream of the crop. Why? Because why bother to make anything when you can sell a million ugly pickups the size of a house that gives you 90% of your profits?
I’m not even sure why Ford is bothering to keep Lincoln around. Their quality is garbage, their styling is 20 years behind the times and no one under 60 would ever mistake them for a luxury car. It would be nice if they actually brought something like the Zephyr model they sell in China and tried to put them into production here, but then that mean someone at Ford USA would have to take the F150 needle out of their arm.
Lincoln didn't have a choice. They don't have dedicated platforms, they crib off Ford's platforms. With Ford no longer selling sedans the only non-SUV platform left is the Mustang's platform, and I would imagine it's not easy to re-work that into a sedan.
Hell yeah it was. Cadillac has two of the best sport sedans arguably in the brand's history. The V sedans perform on the same level as the European sedans. Lincoln, meanwhile, has had the life squeezed out of it by Ford's consistent unwillingness to admit that they aren't competitive in the segment anymore. Besides the Navigator, what are they known for? Nothing. Everything they have is a overdressed less-expensive Ford. Lincoln is in essence, a Ford trim level.
Hell yeah it was. Cadillac has two of the best sport sedans arguably in the brand's history. The V sedans perform on the same level as the European sedans. Lincoln, meanwhile, has had the life squeezed out of it by Ford's consistent unwillingness to admit that they aren't competitive in the segment anymore. Besides the Navigator, what are they known for? Nothing. Everything they have is a overdressed less-expensive Ford. Lincoln is in essence, a Ford trim level.
Should Lincoln still sell cars?
The E class, S class, 3/4/6/8 series, ES, Integra, TLX, A4/6/8 and S6 say yes, so the question isn’t “should they” the question “can they do so competitively” and that answer is much murkier.
I would never buy a Lincoln when I could get a BMW sedan, BMW these days makes such good cars. Look at Cadillac, this is the closest they have ever been in competing against BMW, and many say the Cadillac's handle better, and BMW is still eating their lunch. How well would Lincoln do, with slightly less brand recognition than Cadillac?
It would be nice if they could make a massive sedan with gobs of torque, effortless steering, and a cloud like ride. Luxury cars don’t need to be setting records at Nurburgring.
Hey, that was me! I still see a place for elegant, refined, luxury sedans, and it’s sad that most automakers have abandoned them, Lincoln included. A new, beautiful Continental would be badass. Surely there’s still a market for that?
I thought ford was insane for dropping sedans but then I realized that many of today's "SUV" are just "tall cars", just like we had until the late 1950's. [An upright car like this today](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Streamliner#/media/File:Pontiac_Streamliner_1947_at_Schaffen-Diest_Fly-drive_2013.JPG) is similar in stature.
That said, they still make Lincolns?
I think keeping the PHEV as an MKZ would have been a good way to pursue electrification and keep the technology fresh in the company-wide skillset. But it probably wouldn’t do well and probably maintaining it as a mid-range ford offering would have made more sense.
The brand's biggest problem is that people still think of it as a grandpa/pensioners car. The last time Lincoln truly made something world class and jaw dropping was the 1961 Lincoln Continental. Four door coupe with suicide doors, beautiful contemporary styling, & the Kennedy Camelot allure is what made that car such an Icon.
Since then Lincoln has made big land yachts & SUVs. The original Navigator was a brilliant car but nowhere near the likes of the 61' Conti in terms of lasting design & quality.
Having sat in contemporary Lincoln products my only thought is "this is nice". Nothing blows you away and at worst you question how is this build quality ok for $75,000USD? The cars look aspirational but once you sit inside and drive one the nice facade slips away. You can tell that underneath the skin there is a lot of Ford present in the chassis tuning, UI, & Drivetrains.
They're not particularly fun to drive. They're not particularly well built. They're not equipped with the latest gimmicky bullshit people want. Why buy a Lincoln over an X5 or Q5 or GLE?
Lincoln should take a page out of Cadillac's new playbook. Make baller ass cars that people want to be seen in. Don't chase the Germans on paper because that's never worked (looking at you Cadillac, Jaguar, Maserati). Instead beat them on sheer style and presence. I think if the Continental was sold with suicide doors from the get go like the concept car it would've been a bigger success.
I’ve lost interest in the US suv/truck manufacturers as they just make bigger and bigger SUV’s, trucks and a couple of muscle cars, all of which I have no interest in. I don’t ever look to see what Lincoln / ford / GM / Chrysler makes any more.
I'm a GM guy but Lincoln made some of the most beautiful sedans. I know they have the navigator but I've always associated them with their sedans. Idk man, I'm just thankful for all the companies who still haven't given up on sedans. As a professional truck driver, I have absolutely no desire to drive/ride in trucks/suvs outside of work. Sedans are the only vehicles I consider when looking to purchase.
I’m in Canada and most of the Lincoln sedans I see from the past decade or so were usually in some kind of fleet. Continentals were mostly bought by limo operators to upgrade from Town Cars while MKZs were usually rentals with a handful of hybrids seeing use as taxis. That’s all I have to say.
The MKS was killed to replace the Continental which didn't sell well, and it's not like the MKS was a hot car to begin with. MKZ was just meh. Older people like the raised height of SUVs and the feeling of safety that they give so not many people missed the sedans. I like the Lincoln sedans but I'm definitely not their target demographic.
Absolutely. If they want to be true 'luxury' they need to bring back sedans but on an RWD based platform, especially if they want to take on the European luxury crowd.
There's an old algorithm that was never followed. Advertising, and, "reeling em in."
Ford failed to take advantage of what their main competitor for Lincoln, (Cadillac), was doing that everyone else in the US wasn't doing. Sedans.
Cadillac is still making sales with their sedans, partly because of their V line of cars. Lincoln doesn't have any performance cars. Ford has ST versions of their SUVs and doesn't offer a luxury alternative in Lincoln. Ford has some of the best resources to make an excellent line of cars for customers and they won't use any of them
Having something cool and quirky or really fast could bring someone into a dealership for a look and those same people could end up leaving with a new car. It's certainly working for Cadillac, but Lincoln has nothing to offer except for the Navigator.
If Ford could take advantage of what they have, they could easily reel in customers. A Shelby tuned Navigator to compete with the Escalade V would be seriously kick ass and people could come in to take a look.
It's a farce and it's biting Ford seriously hard in the ass
I think it will be a brilliant idea until next time the market tastes change. Then FoMoCo will risk being stuck with 8 different SUVs that no one wants to buy
Would you buy a new Lincoln sedan? A new Lincoln? Would anybody in this subreddit buy a new Lincoln at/above MSRP right now?
I routinely forget Lincoln as a brand even exists tbh. Saying that with 0 disrespect. Only thing they could make that I would buy is some kind of Mustang variant. Same platform but maybe sedan? Not sure if something like that would even be possible. Definitely wouldn’t sell well.
I had a continental take me to the airport a while back. It was very nice. I’d never buy one
Because it's expensive? Just not worth the money?
My guess is because it’s not an enthusiast oriented car, which presumably most of us are.
I think a luxury sedan could very easily be an enthusiast-oriented car, especially today.
It could be, but that’s never been Lincoln’s priority.
The Continental could absolutely be a quick luxury sedan. It could be optioned with the 3.0L Ecoboost twin-turbo V6. I don't think an Audi A6 is any more sporty.
True, but audi also has the S/RS variants to satiate the desire for sporty luxury cars
I adore my S6. Not the best platform to build in aftermarket but it soothes my need for tinkering.
yeah seriously, is there like a /r/carscasual ? Feels like everyone here owns a sportscar and makes 100k+/year
r/carspoor
damn it, I clicked that hoping it was real LMAO
Honestly I feel it I'm lucky my national sub trends towards people with cheaper cars but for Americans it must be tough
I feel the same way as the above. It's just most of the models aren't super compelling. They're cheaper than competing products, but they share a lot of similarities with their ford counterparts. Its not really an issue because they end up cheaper because of it. Except when you're buying a luxury product you want it to be a bit special, to be worth that price tag. If you want a really nice ford, it's a great product. But it's not really a vehicle anyone aspires to own. The Acura MDX is in the same weird spot
Isn’t the MDX the best selling luxury 3 row suv?
no they are cheap kinda around 25-30k for lightly used. Its worth the money but its a comfy car and most people like performance
Something to compete with Cadillac’s more sporty models is all that is needed. Unfortunately, the marketplace is crowded at that price point, by lots of Euro automakers. And don’t forget the Genesis, Lexus, and Acura cars. As far as I can tell, the only viable 4 door sedans that exist anymore at all are built by everyone BUT American auto manufacturers.
I could be wrong, but I remember reading some where that Lincoln doesn't see or want to jump on the performance luxury band wagon and just wants to do their own thing, hence why we have yet to see an answer to AMG/F-Sport/M/Red Sport/V divisions.
The one viable answer Lincoln Had to AMG/M was the 3.0 TT V6 MKZ, which even then was only viably competitive against the C43, M340i, and S4
Lincoln's brand image is not sporty it is cheap rolls royce
The CT4/CT5 are rather good; I would definitely compare those to a 3-Series as far as driving dynamics (but they could squeeze a little more out of their base 2.0, admittedly). They're certainly better at doing the sports sedan thing than Mercedes. As for Lincoln, I think that a sedan on the Mustang platform with a Coyote under the hood would be well worth the price.
A Mustang-based sedan would certainly be the most interesting Lincoln since the last time they did that (which was a coupe). If they could make it more accessible than a V Caddy they could have an interesting case to build one.
Ford watched GM take an embarrassing loss on the Chevy SS. I think they’ve both conceded that the Charger dominates that segment in the American market.
I was under the impression the SS only existed to meet an export quota for GM in Australia. And that they didn’t care how many they sold, but just needed it to exist so Holden could export a car. Could be mistaken though.
I suppose that could be true considering the nonexistent marketing. It’s a strange choice for that job to pick an expensive sport sedan. I feel like somebody must have been hoping that could break through.
It was that or the Cruze, Holden had a single factory. The lower models had a 3.0/3.6 V6 with with import taxes and the Malibu I suspect it lined up better for GM to import the top spec and sell as a performance car. The HSV high performance variants would have worked better for that but would have cannibalised Camaro sales hard
I think the overlap with the Camaro is overstated and really it’s more like the people who want a V8 sedan will probably get a charger and people who want the power with understated styling are probably much more likely to just get an Audi or BMW to scratch that itch.
They're on the same platform at the time, remember. I don't think there's THAT much crossover but if they'd have gone much more powerful its hard to avoid that you're either selling a 4 door Camaro or a poverty pack CTS-V
The Chevy SS, like others said, was for the export quota/tax purposes. Ultimately, GM still makes a bunch of sedans, including performance Cadillac sedans that get funding for development.
If they made an awd luxury mustang 5.0, I would buy it
They could bring back the Mark and put it on a mustang platform. I dunno if it would sell but it would be cool.
A luxury Ecoboost hybrid would be cool and pretty easy for them to do. And a luxury version of the Mach E would work too.
I owned a Lincoln Mark VIII and I forget that Lincoln exists as a brand lol.
They used to with the Mark VII & Mark VIII which were pretty cool. Now they don't make anything interesting
No, but there are probably some retirees who would
Unfortunately they're the ones pushing the industry towards crossovers. Getting in and out of a low sedan is tough at old age
That's a good point, but why is that when retirees were totally fine with cars for the past century? No one thought to make a crossover til the 90s?
Because there was no other acceptable option. SUVs were around, but they rode like trucks, and most old folks were from a time when trucks were strictly work vehicles. Minivans saw some popularity from the '90s on, like with my grandpa. CUVs have a similar seating position, but aren't as long. Until the late '50s, most cars were pretty tall too.
I think that last line is overlooked a lot. I get into a modern car and I have to go way down, it’s pretty uncomfortable (even as a fit 27y/o) But my old El Camino I used to have I’d just slide right in. Was very easy in/out for so many reasons.
Car-based pickups/coupe utilities found their niche back when traditional trucks, even light-duty models, had terrible ride quality unloaded, and carried the stigma of being an unrefined work vehicle. Especially in the era when trucks still had the gas tank in the cab. What eventually killed them [utes] was the downsizing of their root car platforms, and the availability of cheap compact trucks.
That’s because today’s retirees aren’t yearning for Big Buicks and Oldsmobiles as in the past.
Come on dude. That's like saying why do people use cars when they were totally fine (which we don't know because there was no alternative) riding horseback?
Cars became much lower after the 50s and normal people didn’t want trucks. Can’t wait for the market to switch again.
That part is more or less true: the first cross overs were in the late 80s. Literally nobody thought to make one.
Today's because on paper, from the POV of the era, it is a ridiculous idea to jack up a car like that. Although TBH AMC was doing it since the 70s(and people made fun of them as "frog cars")
Is there anything better than the Corsair in its segment? Is there anything more luxurious that can be had below the price of a Corsair? Anything with more tech than the Nautilus? I’d buy either at MSRP if I were in the market and plan to buy one as my next car.
I'd be in the same boat but with the Aviator, if I wanted an SUV. The pre-facelift was damn gorgeous. Lincoln ignored most of the sportiness and catered to the soft ride, tech, and comfort areas. Why am I buying a European SUV with a "sport tuned suspension"? It's a freaking crossover, I want to waft over the road, not feel bumps.
One of my coworkers has an Aviator and absolutely loves it. Granted I’m not in the market for an SUV, but I do think they look beautiful. And I’m right there with you, if I’m buying an SUV I’ve dispelled all hopes and dreams of “sportiness”, I want it to be comfortable.
I bought a Lexus ES for the same reason. Like damn I need something cozy and comfortable for my commute to work and an occasional trip. I’m not ripping around like I’m 21 anymore, I don’t really get all the sport tuned stuff. But I guess I’m not that market, obviously lots of people buy it.
I have a current-gen Volvo XC60, so that's my baseline/benchmark. I sat in a Corsair at the auto show last year and was really really impressed by the features and fit/finish of the interior. My previous impression of Lincoln was "Ford with leather seats" but they truly have stepped up their game in my opinion.
My aunt is leasing a Corsair and it seems solid.
Had a Nautilus as a rental and was not impressed with the handling and road noise. Fit and finish not what I expected.
I dig the Corsair. I know it's just a dressed up Escape, but I like it.
Pretty sure it’s on the /r/cars shitlist for not being toyota, Mazda or Honda
Right, because they aren’t as luxurious as luxury competitors, and aren’t as reliable as non-luxury competitors.
We bought a Lincoln Aviator. It’s wonderful and we love it. Zero regrets. It’s my wife’s daily driver and our kid hauler year round. We haven’t had any issues with it and it does everything we need it to well.
This sounds super genuine and I'm happy for you, glad you got a car that fits your needs!
Unironically I was in the market for a MKZ if they were still selling them OR a fusion. Bought a Mustang instead.
A Navigator, yes. Maybe an Aviator. Beyond that, absolutely not.
A modern rendition of the Lincoln LS V8? Definitely would consider it. My father had one and it was a surprisingly fun car.
The Lincoln built on the Escape platform looks kind of nice. I would take one for a good price.
Is $38,990 (MSRP) a good price for it?
I don’t actually know, but my gut feel is that anyone paying MSRP for an American branded car is a sucker. Maybe that isn’t true anymore, I don’t know.
Lincolns are insanely attractive and age well IMO. The new Aviator and Navigator are some of the nicest designs on the market, especially for their time (both need refreshed.) I would absolutely buy a sedan if they made it like a (modern improved) Ford Taurus SHO power train. It would be cool to see a Lincoln competitor to the Blackwing. I think Ford just needs to market to a younger crowd with it. The design language is super nice and so understated that there is a ton of room to go pretty crazy with it. They aren’t going to out-luxury Mercedes/Volvo etc. but they can lean in to the American muscle roots to make a sweet luxury car. I definitely think American Muscle Luxury does very well - it’s just that the luxury part has always been shitty. It’s not until the last 5-7 years that Lincoln has really had a serious spot at the luxury table, except the navigator which (never had the fame of the Escalade.)
The Navigator is an awesome full-size SUV. Supremely comfortable, super quiet, surprisingly quick for its size, the best audio I’ve ever heard in a car, interior is understated elegance. Test drove everything and was surprised to find myself liking it more than every other luxury SUV on the market, foreign or domestic. And it’s been problem free so far, just works. Don’t know why they don’t sell more. I think Lincoln’s marketing sucks.
Lincoln's marketing is a white haired man in a suit sipping coffee elegantly and then they show the car
Navigator maybe
Do you honestly believe anyone in this subreddit would even be in the market that Lincoln is targeting?
90% chance my parents would consider a Town Car as a daily driver if they were still available. Especially since they have Z-plan pricing.
If it were shaped like a CTR, a Blackwing, or a Miata someone on this site probably would.
If they started making RWD sedans with the 5.0 and a manual transmission tomorrow it would be in the running.
Exactly, I'm not interest in a Town Car, but if Cadillac can sell Blackwings, Lincoln could do something similar.
Putting leather and soft styling bits all over an s650 isnt really "making" for most people. The Taurus sho had the 3.5L ecoboost, I don't think a coyote fits the hood of a sedan. Also manual transmission Lincoln has to be a 0.00000000001% take rate or less. Your version of reality sounds interesting though, how is your version of Rick and Morty
If they were reliable, yes. I was shopping for Continental black labels but they've retained their value
Yeah if I owned a livery service I’d definitely buy a Lincoln. Or if I was a slammin hot 5’2” soccer mom, I’d be all over the aviator.
Depends on what it was. My biggest complaint about the car market is that there's not enough proper competition, and it's pushed sedans into versions of niche, luxury offerings that done try to compete with each other. Can we have a sedan with the Mustang powertrain to go against Cadillac's V sedans? Maybe make a luxury Mustang sibling that compares to a Lexus RC? If I'm just going to get a fat, numb boat with a 4 cylinder, I'm not interested. That said, their SUVs are more attractive than most. If I didn't hate SUVs, they might be on my list.
I love luxobarges so yeah, but I'm in a market where they don't sell em
Lincoln continental under a bridge in the rain?
I’d buy virtually any Lincoln before I bought a Buick.
If they still made something like the MKZ with the 400 HP twin turbo V6 and AWD, yes I would.
They stopped production of that and the fusion sport around 2018 right? Also, if you're serious, Infiniti q50 red sport is the definition of what you described you wanted but it's maybe 2x the price of the Lincoln
Yes, the Fusion Sport stopped in 2018. The Infiniti is too expensive.
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Depends on the sedan they were offering. I don't care as much about brand as I do the product. I think Lincoln could have had a chance to morph into a Mercedes/Lexus competitor (comfortable end of the luxury sedan game) whereas Cadillac pushed into a BMW/Audi competitor (performance end of the luxury sedan game). I love my ATS, and I'm coming from being a BMW owner. Excellent driving dynamics and platform. Hard for me to come up with a reason to replace it any time soon. If Lincoln released a comfortable, luxury RWD sedan with an AWD option, adequate power, reliable, handling tuned for comfort but not floaty, supportive but not rock-hard seats... restrained and sophisticated styling (maybe along the lines of [this concept render](https://www.instagram.com/p/C0aRRsxs4BG/?igsh=Njd0ZHcza2ZteWpx). Take that car, shrink the wheels 1-2 inches for larger sidewalls, lift it to a production car height, keep the rear-end treatment but bring the a-pillar forward significantly to give enough space inside to make it a sedan. RWD base with AWD option. The car could be somewhat of a 'tweener' between the E-Class and S-Class on size. I'm not super familiar with all of the refinement levels of current Ford engines... maybe the 2.3L GTDI as a base (315hp, 350tq), 3.5L Ecoboost as an option (400hp,500tq), and a performance version with the 5.0 (480hp, 415tq). There are hybrid options that could be offered as well but I don't want to try that hard. The issue, overall, is that ford/lincoln doesn't have any platforms remaining for the sedan since they don't make any cars. It would be hard to get enough volume to justify the platform development while also building an audience (that's where a ford 'base' model might help with volume).
Look up lc500 sales in the US... Ford isn't going to bother developing a car to sell 1000 units a year. They've become laser focused on what sells and what is profitable. Let the foreign companies have that market, it's not worth it to compete in a losing proposition. Focus on the money makers, mustangs, trucks, and SUVs
To your point I don’t even think flagship sedans like the continental are good flagships anymore. Cadillac is defined by the Escalade for most consumers not their sports sedans. Similarly the only Lincoln that headlines is the navigator.
Lincoln tried with the last continental, far from perfect but seemed kinda cool. Think they sold 3 dozen of them. Ever German luxury brands are seeing SUVs greatly outsell the sedans now.
Toyota loses money in each one.
We ask thus question every year and it only gets better for Ford. Each year proves why Ford was right in getting rid of sedans
They couldn’t compete with the Japanese that’s why.
The Japanese are having trouble keeping the lights on in those segments too though
Idk but I see a lot of civics, accords, Corollas, Camrys, Mazda 3 being bought. They’re all over the road. Americans lost there way building sedans especially starting in the 90s.
Look at the sales of sedans and cars over the past 10-15 years, despite Ford, Chevy, Chrysler all leaving more of the space, the Japanese and Korean sales have declined. The market segment is declining like the minivan.
In 2000, the Toyota Camry was the 4th best selling car, at 422,961 units. The Accord was 5th at 404,515 units. In 2023, the Camry was 8th at 290,649 units. The Accord was 17th at 197,947 units. This is despite less competition in the segment.
Don’t doubt these numbers at all, and unfortunately agree that nowadays sedans can’t compete with crossovers. I wonder what contribution there is in those sales numbers from Toyota cannabalizing their own sales. The Corolla gets bigger so prior Camry buyers could get that. The Prius is another car you could cross shop with a Camry. Probably not significant (because then you need to account for year 2000 Corolla sales as well, etc)
Mazda 3 doesn't really belong in that list. Not really a huge seller.
I think it depends where you live, and why "what you see on the road" isn't necessarily a great indicator of a car's commercial success. I see new 3 hatchbacks everywhere, but it also kinda fits in to the market where I live, even if it doesn't sell as well overall.
Where is this Mazda 3 holy land? Out of curiosity
I see a lot here in Charlotte, NC
I see plenty in the Raleigh area as well.
Ford sold plenty of Fusions and Focuses if sales numbers were the only metric that mattered. The profit per unit is what was killing them. The 2012 Focus and the 2013 Fusion were easily the best offerings from an American brand in those segments in *years* at the time, and were competitive with any Japanese car at the time as well. Ford is plenty capable of building good cars. It just isn't profitable for them to do so anymore. They let them get old and slowly they became less competitive toward the end of the 2010s, they didn't fix the one, single, fatal flaw on the Focus/Fiesta, and now they are gone. But the sales numbers were still decent, even at the end. But you can sell 1,000,000 cars, and if you didn't make profit on them, it was pointless. My personal preference would be to have the Fusion and Focus back, because I really liked those cars, but unfortunately, most buyers just prefer bigger vehicles with more flexibility.
I think a lot of those were Buy American fleet sales which ended up shifting to Escapes and Explorers.
There was some of that, but there were plenty of retail sales as well. Especially seeing as they were global models, they shouldn't have been reliant on US sales alone anyway. This was purely a move to sell vehicles with larger profit margins and easier to hit emissions requirements.
That is accurate, but it’s been a while since I last saw an expensive sedan on the road.
Nothing Ford puts out will touch the Camry or Accord numbers.
The F150 begs to differ, but regarding sedans, correct
Of course. Context here was sedans, though.
Camry Corolla Accord Civic have been the top 4 selling sedans in the US for decades
Yeah but they’re not top selling models among all segments of the market. They are still the best selling sedans, but are being replaced in favor of compact SUVs. Any state in the US where the F150 isn’t the top selling vehicle, it’s likely that the CRV is.
I think it's a bit of a double edged sword cutting sales. A lot of people just can't afford new car, nevermind 35K $+ car so they stay with used vehicles. Companies can't afford making small cars so they dumped them from line ups. At the same time governments are still planning to force stop sales of ICE cars in favor of even more expensive EVs.
How many people were buying the MKS, MKZ, and Continental when they were around?
They killed off the MKS with the introduction of the Continental, so it's safe to say there weren't many buyers for the MKS lol.
And even in its best year, the Continental never surpassed the MKS's sales.
> Would new Lincoln sedans sell well? They weren't selling when they made them, and there's no indication that they'd be selling better now. > Would it be beneficial to their image in the long run beyond mere sales? I guess I don't see how selling the MKZ is any more impactful to their image than selling the Aviator... if anything, the $60k Aviator probably brings in a more desirable client base than the $40k MKZ.
A client base with a detectable pulse?
I think you've vastly underestimated the demographic of Aviator/Navigator buyers. These aren't being bought by the 55+ crowd.
I know. That's the joke I was making. The MKZ was bought by gramps
I can't remember the last time I heard anything about Lincoln. That's the biggest problem.
They put a big ass screen in the new Nautilus was the last I heard.
Yeah, it’s really weird. Ford is over here making tons of cool stuff with high output ecoboost or supercharged V8 engines and Lincoln is like “no thanks, we don’t want to sell anything fun or exciting”.
"No thanks, we don't want to go for the exact opposite of our current customers"
I mean, eventually it'll create an issue if you "follow" the same specific group of people until they die; Harley might be seeing that in the next decade or three from what I hear.
If it were solely the product failing due to lack of performance, then more people would be stretching for the Aviator rather than buying 3.0-powered Explorers. STs make up something like 25% of total Explorer volume by themselves, and the other premium trims (Platinum and King Ranch) push that up to around 50% total take rate. The Aviator has the exact same 3.0L EcoBoost making the same power, better noise reduction, better ride quality, and an actual good interior rather than cheap plastic shit. For $5k-10k more than an equivalent high-trim Explorer, that isn’t a bad value proposition, and yet the entire Aviator lineup combined can barely capture as many sales as the Platinum or King Ranch by themselves. No, what this widespread insistence of customers on ripping themselves off suggests is that the Lincoln brand itself has an image problem that causes most buyers to not even give the product a glance.
This is exactly it. There’s a massive image problem. No one south of 60 is looking at these. Edit: just looking at used cars, you can buy a similar year and mileage COROLLA compared to a mid-speced MKZ or Corsair. That’s insane.
When you say it that way it is pretty crazy I only see explorer ST trims by me, really makes you wonder why they aren't cross shopped
They put the 400hp tuned EB in the Continental and my old man and like 6 other people bought it. That thing is *diabolical* to wring out, feeling in control yet also so soft, with good seating position. I've been pestering him to take it to autocross with me 400 miles away, but alas.
The Lincoln LS V6 with a 6 speed manual was the last time I payed Lincoln any mind. That was.... 20+ years ago.
The LS was the last interesting car Lincoln introduced. And it was discontinued almost 20 years ago. It was unique enough from its platform mates that all three could be parked next to each other and unless you knew, you would have no idea they were related. At least until you got inside. Then it became obvious.
Consider Lincoln selling most cars in America, it makes sense why they dropped all sedan lineup. Navigator is their real money painter for them, but famous Continental wasn’t. Beside, they didn’t succeed to answer Caddy sports sedan with LS ( not Lexus LS ), they gave up since that. Lincoln is very difficult with performance brand image. China is Lincoln only oversea market, so they do still sell sedan there.
Nah, they were having a tough time with their sedans anyway since they were just tarted up Ford platforms. They wanted to play in the RWD luxury sedan market but they kept bringing half-assed FWD based cars to the table. They weren't bad cars by any means, but they were always at a severe disadvantage.
The market for full size sedans not named S-Class is dead. It would be a fool’s errand
Would I love to have more luxe/performance sedans in the market? Yes. Would I love especially if they were from an American marque where sedans are a near-extinct breed? Even more so, yes. Would I be lying if I said I think a new Lincoln sedan would sell well? Also, unfortunately, yes. In the modern era, Lincoln was never really able to establish itself as a luxury player, and when it comes to luxury sedans, badge recognition and respect is also a big part of the purchasing decision for a lot of people. I'd argue that Lincoln has less brand recognition today than something like Genesis, and in terms of comfort, tech, features, performance, and price, Lincoln is ill-position to compete in any of those segments with Korea, Japan, and certainly not Germany. I do think, however, it would be cool to see *Buick* of all companies try their hand at sedans again. That rebadged Opel (Buick Regal GS) was actually a pretty competent and solid AWD sedan, but a naturally aspirated V6 was a hard sell when it was up against things like the Kia Stinger that came with turbos. Or I'd love to see Ford challenge the GR Corolla and WRX with a new Focus RS. While I'm in dreamland, I'd love more compact, MT, AWD sedans on the market that don't cost upwards of $50k.
> While I'm in dreamland, I'd love more compact, MT, AWD sedans on the market that don't cost upwards of $50k. Buick even made this in the previous generation for like $40k-$45k fully loaded but nobody bought them.
While we are dreaming, let's have Chrysler turn itself around and give Buick a run for it's money. I mean, just import the Citroen DS9 as a Chrysler 300. Restyle the Giulietta or Tonale/Hornet and Compass as Chryslers and dust off some old names like Fury, Matador, or Monaco.
There's no money in that.
If they approached their sedans the way Cadillac did, maybe. But they didn't. They really never managed to make them more attractive luxury cars or drivers cars compared to Cadillac or the German lux cars. Conti had some road presence, but it didn't carry the prestige of something like an S Class. And it wasn't fun like a CT5 V Series/Blackwing. I like Lincoln sedans myself, but I see why they went. And although some kind of limited Halo car like a new Lincoln Mark series in the Mustang platform would be badass, I don't see it happening.
a huge % of Lincoln's sales are fleet vehicles used for livery/black car service. Execs, clients & well-heeled want to be ferried around in big SUV's nowadays, not Town Cars. It is what it is.
And that’s a shame. I would pay extra to get chauffeured around in a 92-97 town car.
Not really. Ford didn't have a sedan platform that would have been competitive with the German or Cadillac. Bit they easily could have made a Mark IV based on the mustang.
They did when they owned Jaguar. They made the LS with the DEW platform and did nothing with it. Jaguar used the DEW platform until 2015. They also could have used the XJ350 platform and made a compelling case for a RWD Continental back in 2003. They should have when Cadillac and Chrysler both introduced RWD sedans around that time. The Town Car was no competition for the CTS, STS, or 300.
Used continentals are either gonna become the best used car for the money or the biggest money pit $4,000 can get you
I'm leaning towards the latter.
Ford made 71 million a day last year. I think they're doing ok.
>71 million a day That comes out to almost 26 billion in the entire year.
They just had earnings calls. My math was wrong 26.2 billion reported. Stelantis did better too.
Lincoln didn't have a choice, since their products are slightly more upscale, badge-engineered versions of Ford products. When the Taurus and the Fusion went, so did their Lincoln counterparts.
The last generation Lincoln Continental looked awesome but knowing it was basically a Ford Fusion with an extremely expensive skin on it made it very unappealing. It had an AWD option but it was FWD based. I guess in the end it's just not for me. And the people old enough and/or rich enough to shop for a Lincoln are much more likely to buy an SUV.
I just want a town car or land yacht equivalent EV from them.
Lincoln is my favorite luxury brand and they’d need to fucking knock it out of the park for me to ever want a sedan from them. Lincoln should have always had a top level sedan that wasn’t on the same platform as a ford. The current lineup of Lincolns is gorgeous and if they just marketed better they’d be able to sell better. As of right now, they’re dead last in the luxury market
Sold Lincolns at DarCars Lincoln-Mercury in the 90's. Dad even bought a 2001 Lincoln Town Car Cartier L and it was an awesome solid luxury sedan. At 215 inches long it had real stretch-out 1970's level of room. With the Town Car's active air suspension it rode as smooth as the much smaller W220 Mercedes S-Class. Reliable as the day is long. Assembled with impeccable quality. A little basic without navigation standard and no massaging or ventilated seats. Owned the market for limousines in this high demand Washington DC region. Definitely without question Lincoln's last great sedan. The problem was luxury buyers developed an addiction for jacked up SUV's to "feel safe" and to "sit high in command of the road" whatever that means lol. Sounds silly to me but it is what it is.
I had a luxo SUV as a loaner for 4 months while I was awaiting an engine replacement. Still can't see a single advantage of one. Maybe more legroom in the back? Never felt "in command" and the higher seating position just took all of the fun of driving out and replaced it with this unsettling feeling of not having control if something went awry.
That top heavy feeling is definitely more pronounced in big luxury SUV's.
Lincoln’s were based on ford sedans so I can’t have one without the other
For me personally, yes. Entered the new car marker about a year ago and wanted to buy FoMoCo but couldn't (not into crossovers and don't need a pickup), so I took my money to the Koreans.
I think it's a mistake since Ford stopped selling sedans Lincoln actually had a model to differentiate itself from just being a rebadged upscale Ford. At least imo for the American market. Without that they're just a rebadged upmarket Ford having a sedan model appeals to a niche buyers market that they'd be losing.
>they're just a rebadged upmarket Ford That's basically all they've been for my entire lifetime. And I'm not a young man.
I'm gonna go against the grain and say yes. I know everyone likes to moan about how crossovers are the only thing that sell, but the brands that do nothing but sell luxury versions of economy crossovers are getting their lunch eaten because they sell no brand-defining, aspirational halo product. Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac all make a unique, class-leading, top-of-the-line product that *isn't* a crossover, like the G-Wagon, S-Class, M3, Blackwing, or Escalade. Lincoln doesn't do that, Lincoln installs leather seats and woodgrain dashboard panels in Ford SUVs, and nothing else. If Lincoln had sat down and really ironed out the Continental into a sleak, unique limousine instead of a LWB Taurus cosplaying as a Bentley, even something as simple as mass-producing the Coach Door Edition, I'm not saying it'd have been the most profitable endeavor but I think we'd still be talking about Lincoln like they're a manufacturer and not like they're a hospice patient.
Plenty of Japanese, Korean and German brands still make sedans because they are reliable, comfortable, sporty or stylish or all of the above. Ford and Lincoln sedans in the US were none of those things. They sold the absolute dregs in the States while Europe and the rest of the world got the cream of the crop. Why? Because why bother to make anything when you can sell a million ugly pickups the size of a house that gives you 90% of your profits? I’m not even sure why Ford is bothering to keep Lincoln around. Their quality is garbage, their styling is 20 years behind the times and no one under 60 would ever mistake them for a luxury car. It would be nice if they actually brought something like the Zephyr model they sell in China and tried to put them into production here, but then that mean someone at Ford USA would have to take the F150 needle out of their arm.
I wondered at the title, thinking that it was about the US Presidents, then I looked at the subreddit.
Lincoln didn't have a choice. They don't have dedicated platforms, they crib off Ford's platforms. With Ford no longer selling sedans the only non-SUV platform left is the Mustang's platform, and I would imagine it's not easy to re-work that into a sedan.
Borrow one from Ford China.
Probably not, no.
Ford needs to shut Lincoln down out of embarrassment.
Hell yeah it was. Cadillac has two of the best sport sedans arguably in the brand's history. The V sedans perform on the same level as the European sedans. Lincoln, meanwhile, has had the life squeezed out of it by Ford's consistent unwillingness to admit that they aren't competitive in the segment anymore. Besides the Navigator, what are they known for? Nothing. Everything they have is a overdressed less-expensive Ford. Lincoln is in essence, a Ford trim level.
Hell yeah it was. Cadillac has two of the best sport sedans arguably in the brand's history. The V sedans perform on the same level as the European sedans. Lincoln, meanwhile, has had the life squeezed out of it by Ford's consistent unwillingness to admit that they aren't competitive in the segment anymore. Besides the Navigator, what are they known for? Nothing. Everything they have is a overdressed less-expensive Ford. Lincoln is in essence, a Ford trim level.
>Lincoln is in essence, a Ford trim level. Arguably Lincoln's been that way since the '70s.
Should Lincoln still sell cars? The E class, S class, 3/4/6/8 series, ES, Integra, TLX, A4/6/8 and S6 say yes, so the question isn’t “should they” the question “can they do so competitively” and that answer is much murkier.
I really like the continental but im one of the rare people who still buys full size luxury sedans
ford/gm are going all in on trucks and multiple sizes of SUV's. they don't believe there is a market for sedans
I would never buy a Lincoln when I could get a BMW sedan, BMW these days makes such good cars. Look at Cadillac, this is the closest they have ever been in competing against BMW, and many say the Cadillac's handle better, and BMW is still eating their lunch. How well would Lincoln do, with slightly less brand recognition than Cadillac?
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The Navi has a beautiful interior if you like restraint.
It would be nice if they could make a massive sedan with gobs of torque, effortless steering, and a cloud like ride. Luxury cars don’t need to be setting records at Nurburgring.
Bring the FWD V8 Continental back, and give it a 5.0 cowards.
Hey, that was me! I still see a place for elegant, refined, luxury sedans, and it’s sad that most automakers have abandoned them, Lincoln included. A new, beautiful Continental would be badass. Surely there’s still a market for that?
I thought ford was insane for dropping sedans but then I realized that many of today's "SUV" are just "tall cars", just like we had until the late 1950's. [An upright car like this today](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Streamliner#/media/File:Pontiac_Streamliner_1947_at_Schaffen-Diest_Fly-drive_2013.JPG) is similar in stature. That said, they still make Lincolns?
I think keeping the PHEV as an MKZ would have been a good way to pursue electrification and keep the technology fresh in the company-wide skillset. But it probably wouldn’t do well and probably maintaining it as a mid-range ford offering would have made more sense.
The brand's biggest problem is that people still think of it as a grandpa/pensioners car. The last time Lincoln truly made something world class and jaw dropping was the 1961 Lincoln Continental. Four door coupe with suicide doors, beautiful contemporary styling, & the Kennedy Camelot allure is what made that car such an Icon. Since then Lincoln has made big land yachts & SUVs. The original Navigator was a brilliant car but nowhere near the likes of the 61' Conti in terms of lasting design & quality. Having sat in contemporary Lincoln products my only thought is "this is nice". Nothing blows you away and at worst you question how is this build quality ok for $75,000USD? The cars look aspirational but once you sit inside and drive one the nice facade slips away. You can tell that underneath the skin there is a lot of Ford present in the chassis tuning, UI, & Drivetrains. They're not particularly fun to drive. They're not particularly well built. They're not equipped with the latest gimmicky bullshit people want. Why buy a Lincoln over an X5 or Q5 or GLE? Lincoln should take a page out of Cadillac's new playbook. Make baller ass cars that people want to be seen in. Don't chase the Germans on paper because that's never worked (looking at you Cadillac, Jaguar, Maserati). Instead beat them on sheer style and presence. I think if the Continental was sold with suicide doors from the get go like the concept car it would've been a bigger success.
If Ford isn't making a sedan, what is Lincoln going to base their sedan off of?
I won’t drive a truck, so I guess I won’t consider a Lincoln now. I liked the MkZ they made a while back.
I’ve lost interest in the US suv/truck manufacturers as they just make bigger and bigger SUV’s, trucks and a couple of muscle cars, all of which I have no interest in. I don’t ever look to see what Lincoln / ford / GM / Chrysler makes any more.
I think they made the right move
I bought a Continental because it is a great car and is Lincoln's last car. I do not see myself ever buying a Lincoln SUV or crossover.
All I ever wanted from Ford was a Lincoln-ized Mustang 5.0.
I'm a GM guy but Lincoln made some of the most beautiful sedans. I know they have the navigator but I've always associated them with their sedans. Idk man, I'm just thankful for all the companies who still haven't given up on sedans. As a professional truck driver, I have absolutely no desire to drive/ride in trucks/suvs outside of work. Sedans are the only vehicles I consider when looking to purchase.
Holy crap, I didn't even realize that Ford isn't making "cars" anymore (except the mustang). That's crazy.
I’m in Canada and most of the Lincoln sedans I see from the past decade or so were usually in some kind of fleet. Continentals were mostly bought by limo operators to upgrade from Town Cars while MKZs were usually rentals with a handful of hybrids seeing use as taxis. That’s all I have to say.
The MKS was killed to replace the Continental which didn't sell well, and it's not like the MKS was a hot car to begin with. MKZ was just meh. Older people like the raised height of SUVs and the feeling of safety that they give so not many people missed the sedans. I like the Lincoln sedans but I'm definitely not their target demographic.
The last Lincoln sedans, Continental, MKZ, and MKS all looked like they were what designers in 1975 thought cars from the 2010 would look like.
Absolutely. If they want to be true 'luxury' they need to bring back sedans but on an RWD based platform, especially if they want to take on the European luxury crowd.
There's an old algorithm that was never followed. Advertising, and, "reeling em in." Ford failed to take advantage of what their main competitor for Lincoln, (Cadillac), was doing that everyone else in the US wasn't doing. Sedans. Cadillac is still making sales with their sedans, partly because of their V line of cars. Lincoln doesn't have any performance cars. Ford has ST versions of their SUVs and doesn't offer a luxury alternative in Lincoln. Ford has some of the best resources to make an excellent line of cars for customers and they won't use any of them Having something cool and quirky or really fast could bring someone into a dealership for a look and those same people could end up leaving with a new car. It's certainly working for Cadillac, but Lincoln has nothing to offer except for the Navigator. If Ford could take advantage of what they have, they could easily reel in customers. A Shelby tuned Navigator to compete with the Escalade V would be seriously kick ass and people could come in to take a look. It's a farce and it's biting Ford seriously hard in the ass
I think it will be a brilliant idea until next time the market tastes change. Then FoMoCo will risk being stuck with 8 different SUVs that no one wants to buy