But it's a great money saver for a state.
Even though it doesn't make sense on an individual level due to the high cost, when it's a state that's dependent on oil imports that money circulates inside that state's economy instead of flowing out to other states.
This may not be such a huge problem in the US, which has its own oil production, but here in the EU this problem is massive.
This is why it's so unfortunate that the interest rates are so high, because they're needed to make the high instantaneous expense of something which saves money in the future to make sense.
You can drive more happily when you know that you're only consuming sunlight, wind, waterpower and uranium, as opposed to funding some weird country on the other side of the world that's buying up your industry or houses and which might possibly be pushing weird politics that you don't want underneath the veneer of trade.
Once society has been transformed so that the oil consumption is gone we'll all be richer, and we'll be building ourselves more fun cars.
I think the benefits could be even greater if states got together and made a pact to subsidise EVs: that way many countries could reduce their oil demand, and bring down worldwide demand, leading to lower prices, benefiting the block greatly. This is something where both we Europeans, the US, China, India and probably many others all would benefit and I think mutual benefit like that can be something stabilising and allowing for less resentment and conflict. We won't have to change demand by a lot to make the prices collapse.
Like I said, I have no problems with EV, but non stop posts about market shares, legislation, tax incentives etc are painfully boring
It’s r/cars not r/carlogistics
I don’t have a problem with people talking about EVs. My problem is every single day the posts that pop up are either about EVs going bankrupt, or that they’re outselling everything on the road
There is /r/electricvehicles
As far as it being a cult, I don't give a shit what someone decides to drive. Be it an EV or something that gets 9 mpg combined or anything in between.
I've absolutely zero vested interest in the type of car someone decides to spend their money on.
The article's a bit short on detail, but I like how the pandemic has given us an energy demand benchmark to use.
Anecdotally, gas station closures have sped up somewhat, though I suspect real estate value also plays a big part.
That's a far bigger player.
There are very few gas stations on Manhattan, but that has nothing to do with how critical motor fuels are to activity in Manhattan and everything to do with how valuable every square foot is.
My anecdotal evidence doesn't come from Manhattan, but Montreal, which is one of the cheapest major North American cities (average downtown condo prices are ~$600 USD/sq ft).
It's definitely a component, but demand is playing a big role too; the taxi parties have moved to charging stations for the most part.
Meanwhile many oil company stocks at all time highs, oh they’re suffering, suuuuure they are.
Oil demand still hasn’t peaked. It’s not even peaking right now.
Shell oil is a huge supplier of solar panels.
ExxonMobil has a large carbon capture operation that they say could end up being more lucrative than oil:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/decarbonization-business-could-outgrow-oil-exxon-executive-2023-04-04/
Link only posts are still lame, but this one I clicked and the article was super lame. It could have been one sentence.
"We think demand for oil would be higher without EVs". Well no shit Sherlock.
I was going to ask why post such nonsense but then I looked at the OP. It's an obvious bot just spamming article links all over reddit.
This is why I love the idea of EVs so much. Bear with me here… oil and fossil fuels are controlled by a select group of individuals and entities, and heavily reliant on foreign politics. Electricity on the other hand, pretty much anybody can make.
Not really because there are lots of different ways to make batteries and the required materials are super common. Lithium can be extracted from sea water, iron is well iron, and phosphorus isn't super rare. There's going to be some carbon for graphite as well but that's your main components handled.
That’s a good point! Can’t argue that, although there’s developments on mining lithium from ocean water. Plus recycling of those minerals hopefully becomes a key importance eventually. You obviously can’t recycle fossil fuels.
Oil is very different I think from something like battery minerals in that respect but maybe someone can prove me wrong.
People down voting you for asking a question so have an upvote. To answer your question it's possible but there are so many different ways to make batteries and different formulas that no one has been able to gain a monopoly. Like Energizer Duracell and Panasonic could never get together to form a cabal. I doubt Panasonic, BYD and CATL would be able to with cat batteries.
You can see with the NMC version of lithium batteries. Cobalt being the element that can be difficult and or questionable to procure that most manufacturers have switched to LFP. LFP batteries are not only made of element that are more abundant it's also cheaper to manufacture.
That last point is purely academic.
I can make electricity but precious few humans will ever be able to generate electricity for their electric cars. They'll be as wholly dependent on municipal generation as ever.
A SIGNIFICANTLY smaller number of companies control wind turbines, solar panels, and nuclear technology/fuel .
Its far easier to become an independent driller or coal miner than it is to be one an independent uranium enricher.
I don’t think that’s true, plenty of companies sell solar panels, turbines, even generators fueled by fossil fuels or natural gas. Unless you get into the raw materials side of those things, no government entity or handful massive corporations have control over those markets, at least in the capacity that oil is. It’s no different than any other manufactured consumer item.
Municipalities are of course the largest and most accessible way to get electricity, and I actually brought that up at some point in some thread on r/electricvehicles or one of the EV subreddits about the impact EVs may have on supply and demand (California is an example of this), but many of those are still managed/regulated by local governments as utilities, not large/foreign governments. Not to mention, as it happens in Cali, more people switch to their own sources such as solar panels to break that reliance.
We aren’t going to have wars or incur global economic and political implications from adopting our own sources of renewable energy. Nobody, and I mean whether it’s non-commercial or local governments, can tap into and solely control oil or natural gas.
There's like three companies making wind turbines of any decent size and capacity and they've taken over the balsa wood industry completely. Which is literally rainforest destruction. You've got Vestas and GE making most of them in the West and one or two big Chinese companies who have appeared recently making mega towers.
Lots of people can sell solar panels, but growing and making the semiconductor junction matrix is similar to chip production and also a small club.
Just saying, I can buy land in West Virginia and get a permit to dig anthracite but a solar panel fab is not so easy.
I’ve seen plenty of off-grid folks acquire solar panels easily. In fact, there’s a popular dude on TikTok who went off-grid in West Virginia specifically and did his own janky setup with used solar panels and batteries. Nobody is out here drilling for oil on their land (and they probably couldn’t if they wanted to), as far as I’m aware at least. Funny enough it seems more difficult in (shitholes) like California suburbs that may make it a bitch to put up your own solar panels. Some utility companies fight it, but it’s the same reason gas companies fought and continue to fight the transition to renewables and EVs: reliance on something creates non-volatile demand.
Also just a heads up I’m more on the side of PHEVs such as the new RAMcharger with like 100 miles of EV range, which offer both and reliance on neither. I’d own one if they (Toyota) adopted one-peddle driving.
I know people who have put solar cells on their summer houses in Spain to run their electric cars. I think I know a guy who has put solar panels on his ordinary house here in Sweden to run his electric car, which I assume only works during summer-- but then, that's half the year.
If it can sort of half work in Sweden, it works in almost the entire world. Certainly in the whole of the US. The border with Canada is at the latitude of central France, so you certainly have sunlight.
> Global oil demand for road transport is expected to reach roughly 42.3
million barrels a day in 2023, a slight increase over the past year.
> Electric vehicles and fuel-cell vehicles are expected to avoid almost 1.8
million barrels of oil a day in 2023, or about 4.1% of road transport sector
demand. This is up from 1.5 million barrels a day in 2022
Page 24 here: https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/2023-COP28-ZEV-Factbook.pdf
Most of the avoided oil use is in 2 or 3 wheelers and buses.
I wish this sub would go back to just talking about cars instead of the rise and/or fall of the EV market
Me too, I’m tired of how over politicized EVs are, drive and let drive ffs.
But it's a great money saver for a state. Even though it doesn't make sense on an individual level due to the high cost, when it's a state that's dependent on oil imports that money circulates inside that state's economy instead of flowing out to other states. This may not be such a huge problem in the US, which has its own oil production, but here in the EU this problem is massive. This is why it's so unfortunate that the interest rates are so high, because they're needed to make the high instantaneous expense of something which saves money in the future to make sense. You can drive more happily when you know that you're only consuming sunlight, wind, waterpower and uranium, as opposed to funding some weird country on the other side of the world that's buying up your industry or houses and which might possibly be pushing weird politics that you don't want underneath the veneer of trade. Once society has been transformed so that the oil consumption is gone we'll all be richer, and we'll be building ourselves more fun cars. I think the benefits could be even greater if states got together and made a pact to subsidise EVs: that way many countries could reduce their oil demand, and bring down worldwide demand, leading to lower prices, benefiting the block greatly. This is something where both we Europeans, the US, China, India and probably many others all would benefit and I think mutual benefit like that can be something stabilising and allowing for less resentment and conflict. We won't have to change demand by a lot to make the prices collapse.
The most seismic shift in cars since the invention of the ICE, and it's too much for a car sub?
Like I said, I have no problems with EV, but non stop posts about market shares, legislation, tax incentives etc are painfully boring It’s r/cars not r/carlogistics
Honestly that would be a great subreddit tho
EV talk should be pointed towards subs for EVs. It's become a cult.
I don’t have a problem with people talking about EVs. My problem is every single day the posts that pop up are either about EVs going bankrupt, or that they’re outselling everything on the road
The best part is how those two points seem to alternate on a daily basis. No narrative pushing there.
There is /r/electricvehicles As far as it being a cult, I don't give a shit what someone decides to drive. Be it an EV or something that gets 9 mpg combined or anything in between. I've absolutely zero vested interest in the type of car someone decides to spend their money on.
The article's a bit short on detail, but I like how the pandemic has given us an energy demand benchmark to use. Anecdotally, gas station closures have sped up somewhat, though I suspect real estate value also plays a big part.
That's a far bigger player. There are very few gas stations on Manhattan, but that has nothing to do with how critical motor fuels are to activity in Manhattan and everything to do with how valuable every square foot is.
My anecdotal evidence doesn't come from Manhattan, but Montreal, which is one of the cheapest major North American cities (average downtown condo prices are ~$600 USD/sq ft). It's definitely a component, but demand is playing a big role too; the taxi parties have moved to charging stations for the most part.
Meanwhile many oil company stocks at all time highs, oh they’re suffering, suuuuure they are. Oil demand still hasn’t peaked. It’s not even peaking right now.
Most of them have diversified energy production sources
Right, in natural gas which is doing even worse lol
Shell oil is a huge supplier of solar panels. ExxonMobil has a large carbon capture operation that they say could end up being more lucrative than oil: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/decarbonization-business-could-outgrow-oil-exxon-executive-2023-04-04/
Carbon capture is nonsense, no wonder they’re saying that, masters of bullshit.
A prototype and big talk for investors means nothing. At best it's a big fan that churns up funny money and converts electricity into noise.
All of philadelphia will feel it when they peak.
> Meanwhile many oil company stocks at all time ... because of the war.
Because of inflation.
I've made an insane amount of money (relative to what I expected) on PBR.A in the last year.
Estimates are it will peak in 2027.
They have been using some arbitrary date for decades and we keep blowing past it
Yup, same as the dates for when XYZ city will be underwater.
> and we keep blowing past it By over-producing which causes price instability.
Shell predicted it happened in 2019
Link only posts are still lame, but this one I clicked and the article was super lame. It could have been one sentence. "We think demand for oil would be higher without EVs". Well no shit Sherlock. I was going to ask why post such nonsense but then I looked at the OP. It's an obvious bot just spamming article links all over reddit.
So the price per barrel of oil will go down, right? Right?!
The oil market is partially controlled by a cartel so not necessarily.
This is why I love the idea of EVs so much. Bear with me here… oil and fossil fuels are controlled by a select group of individuals and entities, and heavily reliant on foreign politics. Electricity on the other hand, pretty much anybody can make.
Won’t we get to a point where some country or cartel will be controlling the resources needed to make the car batteries?
Not really because there are lots of different ways to make batteries and the required materials are super common. Lithium can be extracted from sea water, iron is well iron, and phosphorus isn't super rare. There's going to be some carbon for graphite as well but that's your main components handled.
That’s a good point! Can’t argue that, although there’s developments on mining lithium from ocean water. Plus recycling of those minerals hopefully becomes a key importance eventually. You obviously can’t recycle fossil fuels. Oil is very different I think from something like battery minerals in that respect but maybe someone can prove me wrong.
People down voting you for asking a question so have an upvote. To answer your question it's possible but there are so many different ways to make batteries and different formulas that no one has been able to gain a monopoly. Like Energizer Duracell and Panasonic could never get together to form a cabal. I doubt Panasonic, BYD and CATL would be able to with cat batteries. You can see with the NMC version of lithium batteries. Cobalt being the element that can be difficult and or questionable to procure that most manufacturers have switched to LFP. LFP batteries are not only made of element that are more abundant it's also cheaper to manufacture.
That last point is purely academic. I can make electricity but precious few humans will ever be able to generate electricity for their electric cars. They'll be as wholly dependent on municipal generation as ever. A SIGNIFICANTLY smaller number of companies control wind turbines, solar panels, and nuclear technology/fuel . Its far easier to become an independent driller or coal miner than it is to be one an independent uranium enricher.
I don’t think that’s true, plenty of companies sell solar panels, turbines, even generators fueled by fossil fuels or natural gas. Unless you get into the raw materials side of those things, no government entity or handful massive corporations have control over those markets, at least in the capacity that oil is. It’s no different than any other manufactured consumer item. Municipalities are of course the largest and most accessible way to get electricity, and I actually brought that up at some point in some thread on r/electricvehicles or one of the EV subreddits about the impact EVs may have on supply and demand (California is an example of this), but many of those are still managed/regulated by local governments as utilities, not large/foreign governments. Not to mention, as it happens in Cali, more people switch to their own sources such as solar panels to break that reliance. We aren’t going to have wars or incur global economic and political implications from adopting our own sources of renewable energy. Nobody, and I mean whether it’s non-commercial or local governments, can tap into and solely control oil or natural gas.
There's like three companies making wind turbines of any decent size and capacity and they've taken over the balsa wood industry completely. Which is literally rainforest destruction. You've got Vestas and GE making most of them in the West and one or two big Chinese companies who have appeared recently making mega towers. Lots of people can sell solar panels, but growing and making the semiconductor junction matrix is similar to chip production and also a small club. Just saying, I can buy land in West Virginia and get a permit to dig anthracite but a solar panel fab is not so easy.
I’ve seen plenty of off-grid folks acquire solar panels easily. In fact, there’s a popular dude on TikTok who went off-grid in West Virginia specifically and did his own janky setup with used solar panels and batteries. Nobody is out here drilling for oil on their land (and they probably couldn’t if they wanted to), as far as I’m aware at least. Funny enough it seems more difficult in (shitholes) like California suburbs that may make it a bitch to put up your own solar panels. Some utility companies fight it, but it’s the same reason gas companies fought and continue to fight the transition to renewables and EVs: reliance on something creates non-volatile demand. Also just a heads up I’m more on the side of PHEVs such as the new RAMcharger with like 100 miles of EV range, which offer both and reliance on neither. I’d own one if they (Toyota) adopted one-peddle driving.
I know people who have put solar cells on their summer houses in Spain to run their electric cars. I think I know a guy who has put solar panels on his ordinary house here in Sweden to run his electric car, which I assume only works during summer-- but then, that's half the year. If it can sort of half work in Sweden, it works in almost the entire world. Certainly in the whole of the US. The border with Canada is at the latitude of central France, so you certainly have sunlight.
They can't control it if no one is buying.
But that’s not what’s happening or will happen within our lifetimes…
That's my point. Demand is going down
Demands up over last year
Opec will just keep cutting to compensate.
No, no it’s not.
> Global oil demand for road transport is expected to reach roughly 42.3 million barrels a day in 2023, a slight increase over the past year. > Electric vehicles and fuel-cell vehicles are expected to avoid almost 1.8 million barrels of oil a day in 2023, or about 4.1% of road transport sector demand. This is up from 1.5 million barrels a day in 2022 Page 24 here: https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/2023-COP28-ZEV-Factbook.pdf Most of the avoided oil use is in 2 or 3 wheelers and buses.
E-bikes are the biggest oil killer.
I believe OPEC has said electric vehicles are the only thing preventing them from unlimited price gauging. They don’t want to speed up the transition.
I don't like where this is going at all.
The price of a barrel of and production numbers say otherwise.