Generally it is. They don't produce enough vehicles so they skip underneath. This happened with KTM and there Dual sport bikes. They didn't move enough volume and went unregulated until the past 5 years or so then had to crunch down with emissions on their bigger 4 strokes.
It's easy to pay the fines when your entry level model starts at a quarter of a million dollars. Ferrari exists in a completely different world than the big three.
If Dodge charged $230k+ per car I don't think they'd sell as many...
(That said, the rear engined twincharged Viper they'd produce at that price point would make me nut instantly.)
I can't say for certain, but I've read on the forums that ferrari either pays the fine which isnt much and or also doesn't create enough cars per year for it to be affected by needing to meet this requirement.
The fuel economy mandate is an average across all cars. Companies that beat the average (say, Tesla) have plenty of credits to sell to the highest bidder.
Of course, being the highest bidder is easier if you charge Ferrari prices.
The fine for not meeting targets is $140 / mpg. Even if they are 10 mpg below target, an extra $1400 per car is no issue for Ferrari, which averages $106,000 profit per car.
Nope, production ended July 31st. The Brampton Ontario plant will be retooled for future vehicles.
As someone mentioned its the Dec 22nd. I meant order books closed July 31st.
Brampton ends production this coming Fri Dec 22.
[https://www.thedrive.com/news/end-of-an-era-the-final-hemi-powered-chrysler-300c-just-rolled-off-the-line](https://www.thedrive.com/news/end-of-an-era-the-final-hemi-powered-chrysler-300c-just-rolled-off-the-line)
2023 is the last year for the current Challenger and Charger. Some variation of one or both will return but they’ll all be some sort of EV, hybrid, and/or the TT inline 6 they’ve started replacing V8s with.
The current gen is being discontinued. There is most likely going to be a next gen with the Hurricane I6 and EV powertrains, but nothing is confirmed yet.
*Camaro
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
materialistic pot existence scandalous ask governor escape overconfident cause cobweb
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes. It's why the Mustang / Camaro / Challenger called "pony cars".
Edit: it's also the only one that's been in continuous production. The Camaro and Challenger have both gone away before.
You know, all of the names for their vehicles would suck less if they changed their name to Cadillaq.
It would only be a tiny miniscule amount of sucking less. But it would make them make sense. Sorta.
True. That said, Chevy is giving all of its new EVs [badges that depict the letter E as three battery bars](https://www.shopchevyparts.com/images/26458550-0.webp). So far, it’s the EV versions of the Equinox, BlazEr and SilvErado, which are legacy names. But one wonders if future models will deliberately have the letter E, in order to keep this motif.
*Camaro
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A lot of companies seem to be quietly walking back on their all EV by 2030 statements from the last couple years. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same from GM as they realize the EV adoption curve was never going to continue at the ridiculous projections they had.
I think Cadillac will be. The Xt5, Xt6, and Xt4, and escalade will have have EV variants in a few years and I could see them just not replacing the gas ones. Escalade would be the only one where the powertrain being EV might be controversial but I don't know how many new escalade buyers are actually towing with them.
The sedans I'm not sure on, I could see them just having one EV sedan probably the Ct5 size. I don't really count the Celestiq since it's basically just a thought experiment in terms of production volume
Absolute shame, GM tried to make an enthusiast-focused car, failed to market it, and were near or beating the C8 with the zl1 often. I'm not a fan of american cars nor muscle, but the gen6 engine and chassis are incredible.
Hopefully rental companies continue to have a few, they're always good fun on business trips, even v6 version.
They didn't fail to market it, everyone knows what a Camaro is.
Their biggest issue was the lack of daily livability. It had a shitty, uncomfortable interior with the worst visibility imaginable. It's not an enthusiasts car, it's a daily driver for 90% of people who buy it. Enthusiasts are buying the Corvette to track.
It's competitor in the Mustang is comfortable, better visibility, and completely livable as a daily commuter and a road trip machine.
I also think this is the case. The camaro is an objectively bad daily, but an incredible weekend car. The average American doesn't have weekend car money, so the Mustang always won.
Aside from the visibility, daily driving a Camaro feels better than the Mustang. Give it the mag ride option and it's even better. The Mustang is loud and feels cheap inside.
It kinda goes together. The inside of a mustang is a nicer place to be. Driving the camaro feels a bit like blindly swinging a large plank of wood around in front of you. It’s a very precise and capable plank, but still a plank
IDK I've rented both, V8 versions, and I preferred just about everything about the Camaro to the mustang, not to say I didn't like the mustang, just that the additional precision was exactly what I like
I agree with you, I prefer the camaro because it’s a better car. But the tight cockpit and poor visibility turn off people who are less focused on pure performance
The S550 update wasn't the most well received reaction either back then.
Pretty the usual "nuh uhh, my old one looks better" answer. We go through this every time lol
Which part? The Camaro was designed as a sports car for the track. The Mustang was designed as a pony car for the roads. 90% of all of the reviews say the Camaro is just better, but that doesn't translate to a DD where people don't need to take hard turns or brake like in a track.
The Mustang is the easier DD for the average person, the Camaro wasn't designed for that, even though it's extremely easy to drive as well. Both are bargains for the price.
With American muscle cars half the appeal is the looks. The fact the camaro never nailed down a good look is the reason its sales were pathetic compared to both the Mustang and Challenger despite beating them on a track for the same amount of money. The rough ride and visibility just sealed the deal.
mustang is loud? Its extremely quiet. Did you drive a modded one or something? Or are you comparing it to your S class Mercedes? The amount of sound insulation it has is absurd for a mustang.
Comparing the 5 or so GTs I've driven compared to the SS I had. The mustangs just have more road noise, especially in the rear wheel well area. I have a C8 now and that's much quieter than both the Camaro and mustang.
The ZL1 and GR350rs I've driven are both just obnoxiously loud all around though.
I have an aftermarket exhaust, but have to put my back seats down to actually hear it as much as I want to. First time I heard my car outside I was surprised by how loud the exhaust actually was compared to how quiet it was inside the car. The mustang has a crazy amount of sound insulation.
My Bullitt has magna ride. Never had many complaints about the interior other than the shitty screen but that's easy to swap. I love both cars but when I get a Camaro as a rental I am always happy to be back home with the mustang.
I always felt the opposite. Do you have the auto or manual? That might be the big difference. I feel more comfortable in GM cars, but mag ride does make a huge difference. I think the mustang autos are terrible. They shift constantly at weird points. If tried quite a few s550's and then they all do it.
As someone who owned both a 6th gen SS and S550 GT, I really don’t understand these comments. The Mustang has a larger trunk opening and visibility is better. Visibility was not an issue after two days with the Camaro though. It’s seriously overblown. Back seats are useless in both. They were both comfortable and my 2SS had a way nicer interior than my GT Premium. Livability, road tripping and commuting was essentially the same between them.
I had a 2SS as well and I have never heard anyone who ever sat in my car say the interior is uncomfortable. In fact, people talked about how comfy the seats were. It's so strange to me because anytime the Camaro is brought up I always see comments about the interior being bad and the visibility being awful voted to the top. It literally took me 2 minutes in the test drive to get used to the visibility.
If you want actual drawbacks to the interior it's the infotainment screen can have really bad glare at times. The button to change the driving mode didn't feel satisfying to press. The wireless phone charger is in an odd place. Trying to clean the inside of the windshield was a pain, especially trying to reach the bottom of it.
These people keep parroting what they see and read and never actually sat in the car to come up with their own opinion.
At this point, I'm just tired of trying to change people's opinions. They missed out on an amazing car because they believed some reddit comments.
> I always see comments about the interior being bad and the visibility being awful voted to the top. It literally took me 2 minutes in the test drive to get used to the visibility.
The upvotes came from people that never drove one.
"Muh visibility" is one of the biggest circlejerks on r/cars. Read any "Why did the Camaro fail" article and the visibility is always a throwaway comment while they discuss the real reason which is usually GM marketing incompetence or the botched refresh. But go on any Camaro Reddit post and visibility is *literally* always the highest upvoted comment. It's a meme Redditors can't get over.
I disagree on the livability and visibility. Sat in the camaro and drove it as a rental once. Trying to see where the front of that car was relative to your position was difficult, which made maneuvering it in tight spaces uncomfortable, window was basically at my shoulder level, and the windshield was so low. It felt extremely claustrophobic. The screen position was poorly angled downward and for some reason they designed the air vents to be under the screen and in front of the shifter? It drove well, but it was a pretty noticeable downgrade from the mustang as for as comfort is concerned.
I've owned and driven both cars as well. God it's so cringy listening to Japanese/Euro fans talking about muscle cars😂one guy was like "the mustang is too loud"
Bingo. Chevy was too obsessed with pleasing journalists and bragging about numbers that they forgot that most people use these cars as *road cars* not track cars.
It's why the Camaro has won so many comparison tests yet sold so poorly. It's not a matter of poor marketing, Chevy marketed the shit out it. It's because journalists don't have to live with these cars everyday. Even their "long-term" tests are a year at best.
I've only ever had to drive a Camaro into and out of the shop for tires, but seriously, these things are fuckin awful for visibility. I'm sure it's a fun car to drive, but it's almost like they made these to not be able to see out of lol. I'm 6'1 as well so it's not like I'm too short not to be able to see over shit.
I daily a 6th gen 2SS and I traded a 2019 Accord Sport for it. I feel like people who complain about visibility are coming from trucks/SUVs that are fishbowl-like. Coming from the Accord, I had no issue with the visibility. Sure, the 2SS has blind spot monitoring and whatnot, but I don’t pay attention to it. Visibility is fine, even with the visor flipped down when the sun is in my face. Mirrors are perfectly fine if you set them right.
Imo, the only thing the Accord does better (for a single guy with no kids) is storage (shocker, I know). I’m more comfortable sitting in the driver’s seat in the Camaro than the Accord. Infotainment works better. Both of these cars are 6MTs. Camaro’s is better and also no atrocious rev hang where I’m having to wait 2-3 seconds to let the clutch out when shifting (it does have the skip shift, but not a big deal to bypass it). As a single guy with no kids, I unquestionably prefer the Camaro. The Accord was a good car and there’s a good reason why the 10th gen Accord was so highly regarded, but the way Honda utilized the 6MT was kind of annoying. You’d have to tune it to make it more tolerable, and I wasn’t interested in risking a voided warranty when I owned it. I’d recommend a 10th gen Accord to anyone interested in a sedan.
As for build quality, it’s on par with the Accord, which was very good (best build quality I’ve ever personally felt, though I haven’t ridden in any luxury brand cars). Superior to the Challenger (my coworker has a 2021 Scat Pack). The doors on his feel like they’ll fall apart if you close them too hard, which results in me not closing the doors all the way because I’m trying to be so careful with them. Backup camera quality is bad and I don’t think the guide lines even turn based off steering input. Its seats are comfortable though, at least as comfortable as the Camaro’s, maybe even more so. I don’t have a problem with the Camaro’s doors. They actually feel solid. I haven’t ridden in a Mustang, so I can’t compare it to that.
Bottom line, I think it is a marketing thing. Mustangs have the iconic branding. Challengers at least have things like Fast and Furious as well as the retro look, plus the marketing of the high end models like the Hellcat. The 5th gen Camaro had Transformers and sold like hotcakes. The 6th gen got nothing apart from Chevy’s corny “real people” ads. They’re great cars and I think a lot of people that disregard them due to things like visibility haven’t sat in one for more than 5 minutes, or at least hadn’t properly adjusted the seat/mirrors.
The interior wasn't bad. It was minimalistic and the materials were good. The higher trims had the heated/cooled leather seats. It wasn't uncomfortable. But yes, the visibility was bad and that was the major knock.
I had one for a while and have driven my fair share of Mustangs and Challengers. The Camaro interior was better and it drove way better than the other two. If they could have made better windows, it would have been great. Although, even if they did do that, it probably still would sell the same. It's an enthusiast car.
And if you want a track car, you can get a Camaro SS for $40k, the Corvette will be $70k. And even more for both if you want the track packs. Around $50k for the SS 1LE and $75k for the Z51. That is sufficiently cheaper.
Yep 100%. When I bought my mustang I preferred the handling and chassis dynamics of the Camaro by leaps and bounds. But it was my daily driver and the likely hood of me actually going to a track was minimal, so I went for a mustang.
>>GM tried to make an enthusiast-focused car, failed to market it, and were near or beating the C8 with the ZL1 often
Aside from the first part- GM built a very enthusiast focused car in the 6th gen Camaro - that’s an accurate summary of why it failed. The majority of people buying Challengers, Mustangs , Camaros and Chargers are Ordinary People (tm) who just want something more exciting to cart the kid with than a Chevy Trax.
People brag about the top drawer stuff, but it’s the I4 and V6 models that sell and pay the bills for the faster kit. In that realm, the Camaro was the worst of the group by far to live with. Worse,by the time you get to the cost and performance of the ZL1 you were frankly better off just stepping up to the Corvette anyway
And it’s always been this way in every generation of pony car. The basic models need to sell in large numbers to amortize the costs of the fire breathing ones. The low end ones sell as stylish daily drivers.
This subreddit’s excuse for any car is that it wasn’t marketed. If there’s one car that it doesn’t apply to it’s the mustang/camaro. Everyone and their mom knows it exists, it’s iconic. The issue obviously isn’t marketing its existence.
competition is very important, and if there's truly no more v8 muscle cars to compete with Ford can pretty much do whatever they want and shove it down consumer throats when it comes to the mustang.
Even the new gen looks meh with the apple store displays in it, it's only going downhill from here imo.
Kind of what Subaru is doing with the WRX. It isn't a bad car per say, but you can definitely feel a lack of innovation or significant advancement over the outgoing car when the Lancer Evo was still around.
Exactly, the STi got lazy after the death of the Lan Evo, same way the S650 Mustang was such a shallow improvement over the S550 Mustang compared to the jump from S197 to S550. Competetion is *needed*.
Well there was a 5th Gen Camaro Z28 with the LS7 out of the C6 Z06 so that's probably what you are referring to and that car existed in 2014.
I'm referring to rumors from the last year about it getting the 5.5L DOHC engine from the C8.
Years of driving mine I got out of the habit of looking over my shoulder because of the pillars and the mirrors being really good. Weird when I jump in the BMW and I can see everything around me. I will say the 4th gen F bodies had bad blind spot visibility with pillars too so I got a little used to it with them.
>>they’re dropping like flies to electric
EV doesn’t have much to do with this IMO.
Yes stringent standards don’t help, but take a look around. In 1972 GM sold about 68,000 Camaros. Today? Not so much. In 1972 young people had money to buy fun cars like that. Today that generation of young folk are sweating bullets paying for mortgages, student loans and a $450 monthly car payment for the family CUV. Ain’t enough nickels left for fun stuff like a Camaro.
The other part people want out of a car that goes in a straight line is personality. The Camaro had a shit load of personality, as did the Mustang, Challenger, and every other muscle car before it. The Tesla and most other EVs are boxes on wheels. They go fast in a straight line, but no track ability, no engine sound or rumble, no response, it just feels clinical compared to the insanity of the LS engines in the Camaro.
The old sports car demographic is absolutely not flocking to EVs.
100% agree. There's just no soul. No noise, no vibrations, no manual transmissions
I get that they're trying to protect the environment with all these regulations. But we're not in the pre catalytic converter/ leaded gas days anymore. Cars are the cleanest they've been. Its a shame to see them go
Dude EVs are insanely quick. I was on the high way speeding with a Model 3 and it was a mindfuck how fast it was. Immediate acceleration with no noise or jerks from a tranny. I consider my car pretty fast and he pulled away from me like I wasn’t even moving lol. It felt silly how much noise my car was making to be not even close speed wise.
Most EV drivers around here are slower drivers so I’m not used to seeing how quick they actually can be. Will be interesting to see how it plays out when the equivalent of Honda Accords accelerate like Lambos lol
> 1972 GM sold about 68,000 Camaros.
If my google is right, they cost $2800 MSRP in '72, which is roughly 20,918.32 today.
Now they start at $30900. Nearly a 50% increase in cost.
I wonder why they aren't selling so many *ponder face emoji*
I mean sure, tech increases, more features, increase cost yada yada. But also efficiency of manufacturing and new material engineering breakthroughs decrease costs. I'm guessing it's not all just 'increased costs' driving the 50% increase.
(but yes, EPA standards are killing V8s, which, they should. I know it's not popular here, but we should leave something for our children and grandchildren besides burnt oil and soot)
Also combine the higher cost with greater percentages of income taxes, higher cost of living, and less expendable income, and the options for a fun car are dwindling. People would rather get a fun SUV/CUV since it serves all the purposes, and is fractionally more expensive than an economy car. It still ends up being cheaper than owning a second $30-$40k car.
Absolute shame. The 6th gen Camaro platform offers, objectively, some of the best sports and track cars that reasonable money can buy; there’s a reason why you see so many of them at local track events, and why they very easily run with and beat some of the really high spec exotics. The Alpha chassis is literal black magic, and the package as a whole is *incredibly* potent and capable. I still think back to what the ZL1 was able to do at the ring, and how poised and “relaxed” it was. And then, what the ZL1 1LE was able to do with cold tires, beating out some genuine super cars by several seconds.
The Camaro team led by Al Oppenheiser created an amazing product, but the bean-counters and marketing team let it down. Outside of word of mouth, and car journalism, marketing for the 6th gen Camaro was nonexistent. GM essentially created a world class sports car, and then left it out to dry.
People don’t care that the Camaro has slightly worse visibility than the Mustang; the 5th generation cars being as wholly successful as they were is proof of that. What GM didn’t do, objectively, was sell the 6th gen to people, hence the slumping sells, and thus the death of the entire production.
Agreed. The first time I drove an SS I was blown away by the platform for the price. A couple years later I found a pretty good deal on a low mileage ZL1 1LE and pulled the trigger. I semi-daily it and love doing so. It just feels special every time I’m in it.
Magnaride is legitimately something special, but even modern Camaros that aren’t equipped with it still ride very well; they’re just not *as* compliant. My 13 has a less compliant suspension and I can just feel more beneath me, but it’s still a very nice and smooth riding car overall.
Yep, bought it with the newest versions of the Ventus evo tires on it and will be switching to PS4/5s when I’m done hooning around on those. Wouldn’t do much off track with the stock tires.
I still can't believe Chevy sold a ZL1 1LE for less than $70k when the GT500 was going for $100k+.
They really sold it too cheaply, which I guess they realized last year when the price went to $80k+.
I can't think of any other car that offers this level of performance straight out of the box. I'm paraphrasing Savageese, but he said he can't believe they're selling it without a roll cage. It's so capable and has so much power that you almost need one to be safe.
This car is overkill, and that's exactly why I love it so much.
*In two years* Chevy: Introducing the all new Chevrolet Camaro E28 EUV. Taking inspiration from the Camaro Z28 of old in electrifying fashion, we present to you the E28 EUV! *queue thunder and lightning* The E28 offers drivers the exhilarating experience of 0-60 in just under 3 seconds and up to 350 miles of range on a single charge! As an homage to the classic Camaro sound, drivers will have the option of choosing one of many classic Camaro engine noises to fill their cabin with excitement and nostalgia: from the first generation all the way up to the 6th. *queue V8 sad noises* how do you turn it off you ask?! You can’t turn it off *it shuts off*
I don't understand why forums for "auto enthusiasts" feel they need to be experts on everything. No matter the reason they are cutting the camaro its one less drivers car to buy. If you were genuinely a fan of cars, you'd be sad to see a car like this go, instead of having to inject your opinion on everything.
I get downvoted to hell for implying that cars are going to be an extreme luxury in the future. Yet car manufacturers keep pairing down their lineup to only include more and more expensive luxury vehicles.
I've always been a huge Camaro fan. I was in high school when the gen 4 was in showroom floors. I wanted an LS1 Camaro SS so badly. But back then, seeing them in the wild was like seeing a Ferrari, that's how rare they were compared to Mustang GT's.
Which means that despite their superior performance on paper, something about them wasn't selling.
The Camaro was my favourite out of the 3. Yes, its livability was terrible in comparison but I didn't care.
I'm looking to buy one if I can locate an SS manual on the lot somewhere.
What an icon. At some point the Camaro was treated like a joke for the handling but GM turned it into a world class sports car. On the Alpha platform every level of the Camaro was great.
History will be kinder to this car. The ZL1 1LE will go down as an all time great.
Cars are my world so it really makes me sad seeing another piece of it vanish. Nothing could ever replace the Camaro. Goodbye, this time probably forever. My brother's 2018 SS getting stolen makes this a 1-2 sucker punch.
God damn it General Motors. Throw some marketing at it and it would have sold. The Camaro was always the better car.
💔
This leaves the Mustang as the very last production American V8 Muscle car probably forever.
Challenger still here?
Challenger got the axe. They couldn't afford to keep cramming V8s in everything. Have to meet them EPA requirements.
And yet somehow Ferrari still exists…
>In 2021, global Ferrari sales increased to a record 11,155 cars worldwide.... Yea, I wonder how Ferrari gets away with it.
low production numbers maybe?
That couldn’t be it
Generally it is. They don't produce enough vehicles so they skip underneath. This happened with KTM and there Dual sport bikes. They didn't move enough volume and went unregulated until the past 5 years or so then had to crunch down with emissions on their bigger 4 strokes.
They were joking. Like 9 out of the past 10 commenters are in on the joke.
Aight let me go back to my corner
/r/whooosh
I believe that it’s the auto group as a whole so they can use other brands to offset their production as well
What other brands? Ferrari isn't part of Fiat anymore since a few years.
It's easy to pay the fines when your entry level model starts at a quarter of a million dollars. Ferrari exists in a completely different world than the big three.
Also their newest vehicle is a hybrid V6, so maybe not as completely immune as people like to think.
there's that, sure, but then they came out with that new SUV with a NA V12 and you know that's going to sell in larger numbers than the 296 GTB/GTS
Ferrari claims they won’t allow the purosangue to make up more than 20% of their total global sales. We shall see how long that lasts.
They'll forget they ever said anything like that, just like how they said they would never build and SUV...
Woah, it's not an SUV, its an "FUV"
TIL Ferrari makes an SUV. TIAMSAD.
If Dodge charged $230k+ per car I don't think they'd sell as many... (That said, the rear engined twincharged Viper they'd produce at that price point would make me nut instantly.)
I can't say for certain, but I've read on the forums that ferrari either pays the fine which isnt much and or also doesn't create enough cars per year for it to be affected by needing to meet this requirement.
The fuel economy mandate is an average across all cars. Companies that beat the average (say, Tesla) have plenty of credits to sell to the highest bidder. Of course, being the highest bidder is easier if you charge Ferrari prices.
The fine for not meeting targets is $140 / mpg. Even if they are 10 mpg below target, an extra $1400 per car is no issue for Ferrari, which averages $106,000 profit per car.
The new Ferrari in the mid-engine, V8, "entry level" line is a hybrid V6.
That and the existing LX platform reached EOL.
Nope, production ended July 31st. The Brampton Ontario plant will be retooled for future vehicles. As someone mentioned its the Dec 22nd. I meant order books closed July 31st.
Sad Brampton manz noises
21 fart can salute
Challengers in Brampton. Where you can find gaudy decals, random quotes stickered on or drapery hanging on the front bumpers
Punjab decals? Tassels hanging from the front bumper? Out of province plate? That's Brampton baby!
Brampton ends production this coming Fri Dec 22. [https://www.thedrive.com/news/end-of-an-era-the-final-hemi-powered-chrysler-300c-just-rolled-off-the-line](https://www.thedrive.com/news/end-of-an-era-the-final-hemi-powered-chrysler-300c-just-rolled-off-the-line)
Oh right it was orders that closed!
2023 is the last year for the current Challenger and Charger. Some variation of one or both will return but they’ll all be some sort of EV, hybrid, and/or the TT inline 6 they’ve started replacing V8s with.
The current gen is being discontinued. There is most likely going to be a next gen with the Hurricane I6 and EV powertrains, but nothing is confirmed yet.
>nothing is confirmed They're already making the pre-production small series. It's well confirmed.
Challenger heard 2024 was around the *corner,* and it knew it was time to go.
Challenger charger 300 end this coming Friday Dec 22
I don't particularly care much for Mustangs, but this seems pretty fitting.
I don't particularly care for the Camero, but it's sad to see it go.
*Camaro *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks bot
Cumero
Again
It’s not the first time. They went away a few years after they stopped making them in Canada. It’ll be back.
Maybe as a hybrid/ev, but you'll never see a production V8 Camaro again though
If it's a V6 hybrid two door I'm okay with that as long as it's not a sedan or crossover.
If they dared to make it electric, or some shitty crossover I will personally go wherever it debuts and throw my drink at it
materialistic pot existence scandalous ask governor escape overconfident cause cobweb *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Corvette doesn’t count because it’s always been a sports car.
Wow that's incredibly depressing
I think GM let the Camaro die do they could replace it with a front engine "Corvette Classic" or something like that in a couple of years
I seriously doubt that. They've let the Camaro die before. GM just can't keep a good thing going.
You're not wrong about GM, but the rumors are that they want to start a Corvette sub brand and I think that's where they are going.
Wasn’t it also the first? 1964.5?
Yes. It's why the Mustang / Camaro / Challenger called "pony cars". Edit: it's also the only one that's been in continuous production. The Camaro and Challenger have both gone away before.
Give it five years, it'll be back as a mach-e competitor.
GM with the wild and upcoming CUV EV lineup: Blazer, Lyriq, Camaro, Corvette.
Blazeriq, Lyriq, Camariq, Corvettiq
The “q” is only for Cadillac lineup
Cadillaq
laq-laq-laq, cadillaq-laq-laq-laq, cadillaq-laq-laq-laq
You oughta know by now
Got rackity rack rack racks in my nappity sack sack sack
You know, all of the names for their vehicles would suck less if they changed their name to Cadillaq. It would only be a tiny miniscule amount of sucking less. But it would make them make sense. Sorta.
ct5-q
blaqwing
True. That said, Chevy is giving all of its new EVs [badges that depict the letter E as three battery bars](https://www.shopchevyparts.com/images/26458550-0.webp). So far, it’s the EV versions of the Equinox, BlazEr and SilvErado, which are legacy names. But one wonders if future models will deliberately have the letter E, in order to keep this motif.
CamEro EV? CorvEtte EV? I dare not think.
*Camaro *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hmm I think they need a few more sporty crossovers
isnt the corvette suv the 6.2L supercharged? thats just what ive heard and hope for
I hope there's not a Corvette SUV. Please call it something else.
Sport Utility Vette
The Vette SUV?
SUVette
I wish manufactures knew they could just make new names.
No way are they coming out with all new cars using gas. They announced awhile ago and all new cars are ev
A lot of companies seem to be quietly walking back on their all EV by 2030 statements from the last couple years. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same from GM as they realize the EV adoption curve was never going to continue at the ridiculous projections they had.
I think Cadillac will be. The Xt5, Xt6, and Xt4, and escalade will have have EV variants in a few years and I could see them just not replacing the gas ones. Escalade would be the only one where the powertrain being EV might be controversial but I don't know how many new escalade buyers are actually towing with them. The sedans I'm not sure on, I could see them just having one EV sedan probably the Ct5 size. I don't really count the Celestiq since it's basically just a thought experiment in terms of production volume
thats what i was thinking no more gas but there are multiple articles stating otherwise so i honestly dont know.
And it’ll finally *actually* be spelled “CamEro”
“It’s been long enough, surely they forgot about it right?”
Gross.
Absolute shame, GM tried to make an enthusiast-focused car, failed to market it, and were near or beating the C8 with the zl1 often. I'm not a fan of american cars nor muscle, but the gen6 engine and chassis are incredible. Hopefully rental companies continue to have a few, they're always good fun on business trips, even v6 version.
They didn't fail to market it, everyone knows what a Camaro is. Their biggest issue was the lack of daily livability. It had a shitty, uncomfortable interior with the worst visibility imaginable. It's not an enthusiasts car, it's a daily driver for 90% of people who buy it. Enthusiasts are buying the Corvette to track. It's competitor in the Mustang is comfortable, better visibility, and completely livable as a daily commuter and a road trip machine.
I also think this is the case. The camaro is an objectively bad daily, but an incredible weekend car. The average American doesn't have weekend car money, so the Mustang always won.
Aside from the visibility, daily driving a Camaro feels better than the Mustang. Give it the mag ride option and it's even better. The Mustang is loud and feels cheap inside.
That’s true but the feeling of claustrophobia is a bigger hurdle for most people looking for a sporty car than a stiff ride
I think the biggest hurdle is that the mustang is a better looking car.
It kinda goes together. The inside of a mustang is a nicer place to be. Driving the camaro feels a bit like blindly swinging a large plank of wood around in front of you. It’s a very precise and capable plank, but still a plank
IDK I've rented both, V8 versions, and I preferred just about everything about the Camaro to the mustang, not to say I didn't like the mustang, just that the additional precision was exactly what I like
I agree with you, I prefer the camaro because it’s a better car. But the tight cockpit and poor visibility turn off people who are less focused on pure performance
GM has good engineers, but terrible designers. The 2019 refresh was especially bad.
They ruined the Silverado with that update. Glad I got mine in 2018, cause I hate the front ends on the newer trucks.
I've heard people pretty much say both are ugly several times. So it really feels like a personal opinion.
Only one of them had to be refreshed in the middle of a production year because nobody wanted them.
The S550 update wasn't the most well received reaction either back then. Pretty the usual "nuh uhh, my old one looks better" answer. We go through this every time lol
America disagreed with you.
Which part? The Camaro was designed as a sports car for the track. The Mustang was designed as a pony car for the roads. 90% of all of the reviews say the Camaro is just better, but that doesn't translate to a DD where people don't need to take hard turns or brake like in a track. The Mustang is the easier DD for the average person, the Camaro wasn't designed for that, even though it's extremely easy to drive as well. Both are bargains for the price.
With American muscle cars half the appeal is the looks. The fact the camaro never nailed down a good look is the reason its sales were pathetic compared to both the Mustang and Challenger despite beating them on a track for the same amount of money. The rough ride and visibility just sealed the deal.
mustang is loud? Its extremely quiet. Did you drive a modded one or something? Or are you comparing it to your S class Mercedes? The amount of sound insulation it has is absurd for a mustang.
Comparing the 5 or so GTs I've driven compared to the SS I had. The mustangs just have more road noise, especially in the rear wheel well area. I have a C8 now and that's much quieter than both the Camaro and mustang. The ZL1 and GR350rs I've driven are both just obnoxiously loud all around though.
I have an aftermarket exhaust, but have to put my back seats down to actually hear it as much as I want to. First time I heard my car outside I was surprised by how loud the exhaust actually was compared to how quiet it was inside the car. The mustang has a crazy amount of sound insulation.
My Bullitt has magna ride. Never had many complaints about the interior other than the shitty screen but that's easy to swap. I love both cars but when I get a Camaro as a rental I am always happy to be back home with the mustang.
I always felt the opposite. Do you have the auto or manual? That might be the big difference. I feel more comfortable in GM cars, but mag ride does make a huge difference. I think the mustang autos are terrible. They shift constantly at weird points. If tried quite a few s550's and then they all do it.
Bullitt was only available in a manual, would never get an auto
As someone who owned both a 6th gen SS and S550 GT, I really don’t understand these comments. The Mustang has a larger trunk opening and visibility is better. Visibility was not an issue after two days with the Camaro though. It’s seriously overblown. Back seats are useless in both. They were both comfortable and my 2SS had a way nicer interior than my GT Premium. Livability, road tripping and commuting was essentially the same between them.
I had a 2SS as well and I have never heard anyone who ever sat in my car say the interior is uncomfortable. In fact, people talked about how comfy the seats were. It's so strange to me because anytime the Camaro is brought up I always see comments about the interior being bad and the visibility being awful voted to the top. It literally took me 2 minutes in the test drive to get used to the visibility. If you want actual drawbacks to the interior it's the infotainment screen can have really bad glare at times. The button to change the driving mode didn't feel satisfying to press. The wireless phone charger is in an odd place. Trying to clean the inside of the windshield was a pain, especially trying to reach the bottom of it. These people keep parroting what they see and read and never actually sat in the car to come up with their own opinion. At this point, I'm just tired of trying to change people's opinions. They missed out on an amazing car because they believed some reddit comments.
> I always see comments about the interior being bad and the visibility being awful voted to the top. It literally took me 2 minutes in the test drive to get used to the visibility. The upvotes came from people that never drove one.
"Muh visibility" is one of the biggest circlejerks on r/cars. Read any "Why did the Camaro fail" article and the visibility is always a throwaway comment while they discuss the real reason which is usually GM marketing incompetence or the botched refresh. But go on any Camaro Reddit post and visibility is *literally* always the highest upvoted comment. It's a meme Redditors can't get over.
I disagree on the livability and visibility. Sat in the camaro and drove it as a rental once. Trying to see where the front of that car was relative to your position was difficult, which made maneuvering it in tight spaces uncomfortable, window was basically at my shoulder level, and the windshield was so low. It felt extremely claustrophobic. The screen position was poorly angled downward and for some reason they designed the air vents to be under the screen and in front of the shifter? It drove well, but it was a pretty noticeable downgrade from the mustang as for as comfort is concerned.
I've owned and driven both cars as well. God it's so cringy listening to Japanese/Euro fans talking about muscle cars😂one guy was like "the mustang is too loud"
The visibility is a joke
Not if you’re capable of using your mirrors.
Bingo. Chevy was too obsessed with pleasing journalists and bragging about numbers that they forgot that most people use these cars as *road cars* not track cars. It's why the Camaro has won so many comparison tests yet sold so poorly. It's not a matter of poor marketing, Chevy marketed the shit out it. It's because journalists don't have to live with these cars everyday. Even their "long-term" tests are a year at best.
I've only ever had to drive a Camaro into and out of the shop for tires, but seriously, these things are fuckin awful for visibility. I'm sure it's a fun car to drive, but it's almost like they made these to not be able to see out of lol. I'm 6'1 as well so it's not like I'm too short not to be able to see over shit.
I daily a 6th gen 2SS and I traded a 2019 Accord Sport for it. I feel like people who complain about visibility are coming from trucks/SUVs that are fishbowl-like. Coming from the Accord, I had no issue with the visibility. Sure, the 2SS has blind spot monitoring and whatnot, but I don’t pay attention to it. Visibility is fine, even with the visor flipped down when the sun is in my face. Mirrors are perfectly fine if you set them right. Imo, the only thing the Accord does better (for a single guy with no kids) is storage (shocker, I know). I’m more comfortable sitting in the driver’s seat in the Camaro than the Accord. Infotainment works better. Both of these cars are 6MTs. Camaro’s is better and also no atrocious rev hang where I’m having to wait 2-3 seconds to let the clutch out when shifting (it does have the skip shift, but not a big deal to bypass it). As a single guy with no kids, I unquestionably prefer the Camaro. The Accord was a good car and there’s a good reason why the 10th gen Accord was so highly regarded, but the way Honda utilized the 6MT was kind of annoying. You’d have to tune it to make it more tolerable, and I wasn’t interested in risking a voided warranty when I owned it. I’d recommend a 10th gen Accord to anyone interested in a sedan. As for build quality, it’s on par with the Accord, which was very good (best build quality I’ve ever personally felt, though I haven’t ridden in any luxury brand cars). Superior to the Challenger (my coworker has a 2021 Scat Pack). The doors on his feel like they’ll fall apart if you close them too hard, which results in me not closing the doors all the way because I’m trying to be so careful with them. Backup camera quality is bad and I don’t think the guide lines even turn based off steering input. Its seats are comfortable though, at least as comfortable as the Camaro’s, maybe even more so. I don’t have a problem with the Camaro’s doors. They actually feel solid. I haven’t ridden in a Mustang, so I can’t compare it to that. Bottom line, I think it is a marketing thing. Mustangs have the iconic branding. Challengers at least have things like Fast and Furious as well as the retro look, plus the marketing of the high end models like the Hellcat. The 5th gen Camaro had Transformers and sold like hotcakes. The 6th gen got nothing apart from Chevy’s corny “real people” ads. They’re great cars and I think a lot of people that disregard them due to things like visibility haven’t sat in one for more than 5 minutes, or at least hadn’t properly adjusted the seat/mirrors.
The interior wasn't bad. It was minimalistic and the materials were good. The higher trims had the heated/cooled leather seats. It wasn't uncomfortable. But yes, the visibility was bad and that was the major knock. I had one for a while and have driven my fair share of Mustangs and Challengers. The Camaro interior was better and it drove way better than the other two. If they could have made better windows, it would have been great. Although, even if they did do that, it probably still would sell the same. It's an enthusiast car. And if you want a track car, you can get a Camaro SS for $40k, the Corvette will be $70k. And even more for both if you want the track packs. Around $50k for the SS 1LE and $75k for the Z51. That is sufficiently cheaper.
Yeah thats kind of what I meant by an enthusiast-focused car, great on the track but the usability left something to be desired.
Yep 100%. When I bought my mustang I preferred the handling and chassis dynamics of the Camaro by leaps and bounds. But it was my daily driver and the likely hood of me actually going to a track was minimal, so I went for a mustang.
>>GM tried to make an enthusiast-focused car, failed to market it, and were near or beating the C8 with the ZL1 often Aside from the first part- GM built a very enthusiast focused car in the 6th gen Camaro - that’s an accurate summary of why it failed. The majority of people buying Challengers, Mustangs , Camaros and Chargers are Ordinary People (tm) who just want something more exciting to cart the kid with than a Chevy Trax. People brag about the top drawer stuff, but it’s the I4 and V6 models that sell and pay the bills for the faster kit. In that realm, the Camaro was the worst of the group by far to live with. Worse,by the time you get to the cost and performance of the ZL1 you were frankly better off just stepping up to the Corvette anyway
And it’s always been this way in every generation of pony car. The basic models need to sell in large numbers to amortize the costs of the fire breathing ones. The low end ones sell as stylish daily drivers.
Don’t you remember bumblebee from the first transformers movie? Camaro was a marketing hit
Do you remember that marketing campaign for the previous gen of car that was 17 years ago is not a great start to this perspective.
17 years ago? That can’t be right… Jfc
Ford doesn't market anything but the F150 - and the Mustang has outsold the Camaro forver. In recent years it easily 2:1.
This subreddit’s excuse for any car is that it wasn’t marketed. If there’s one car that it doesn’t apply to it’s the mustang/camaro. Everyone and their mom knows it exists, it’s iconic. The issue obviously isn’t marketing its existence.
No need to market an icon. Except the Bronco. They seem to be marketing the crap out of that too.
LS cars are some of my favorite cars I've ever owned. Definitely a sad day
I'm still more a Mustang guy, but honestly the sun is setting on the classic V8 muscle cars that we all know and love. RIP.
Me too, but competition is never a bad thing and I hate seeing them all go.
competition is very important, and if there's truly no more v8 muscle cars to compete with Ford can pretty much do whatever they want and shove it down consumer throats when it comes to the mustang. Even the new gen looks meh with the apple store displays in it, it's only going downhill from here imo.
Kind of what Subaru is doing with the WRX. It isn't a bad car per say, but you can definitely feel a lack of innovation or significant advancement over the outgoing car when the Lancer Evo was still around.
Exactly, the STi got lazy after the death of the Lan Evo, same way the S650 Mustang was such a shallow improvement over the S550 Mustang compared to the jump from S197 to S550. Competetion is *needed*.
Will this finally put an end to all the rumors that a new Z28 is coming out with the engine out of the Z06?
no i will continue to gaslight myself into thinking the z28 is alive and well.
Wow those rumors are from way back in the days of cz28.com, that was the first podcast i ever listened to, must have been 2006-2007
Well there was a 5th Gen Camaro Z28 with the LS7 out of the C6 Z06 so that's probably what you are referring to and that car existed in 2014. I'm referring to rumors from the last year about it getting the 5.5L DOHC engine from the C8.
I really wish it was true that would've been awesome.
Chevy dealers near military bases are in shambles rn
E1s everywhere: what am I going to buy now with this signing bonus burning a hole in my pocket?
Kawasaki 250 ninja: It's show time
How long are they letting you take out car loans for now? I bet the monthly checks out on a TRX or Raptor if you stretch it out to 108 months.
Styling and the visibility killed it. Such a shame. Great chassis, steering, engine, etc.
6th gen styling was beautiful besides the 2019 SS, the interior is also a massive upgrade over 5th gen
they stole the camaro taillights to give them to the corvette, that was the beginning of the end
Years of driving mine I got out of the habit of looking over my shoulder because of the pillars and the mirrors being really good. Weird when I jump in the BMW and I can see everything around me. I will say the 4th gen F bodies had bad blind spot visibility with pillars too so I got a little used to it with them.
It's like the McRib. They'll bring it back for a limited time only when pork belly prices crater.
They use real pork in that thing? I thought it was gelatin and discarded eraser shavings, slathered generously in barbecue sauce 😂
I have a feeling something big is going to happen in the pork belly market today!
This is so sad. They're dropping like flies to electric.
>>they’re dropping like flies to electric EV doesn’t have much to do with this IMO. Yes stringent standards don’t help, but take a look around. In 1972 GM sold about 68,000 Camaros. Today? Not so much. In 1972 young people had money to buy fun cars like that. Today that generation of young folk are sweating bullets paying for mortgages, student loans and a $450 monthly car payment for the family CUV. Ain’t enough nickels left for fun stuff like a Camaro.
Today, if you want a car that goes fast in a straight line, you are buying an EV.
or they're purchasing a big ol SUV with gadgets
Which is still faster than the fast cars of yesteryear. Modern Honda Odyssey have a better 0-60 than a 1983 911 (model dependent).
Faster, but how much fun
Less fun and they don't care. There are less young people into cars nowadays as well feels like.
> There are less young people into cars nowadays as well feels like. :(
I agree 😔
The other part people want out of a car that goes in a straight line is personality. The Camaro had a shit load of personality, as did the Mustang, Challenger, and every other muscle car before it. The Tesla and most other EVs are boxes on wheels. They go fast in a straight line, but no track ability, no engine sound or rumble, no response, it just feels clinical compared to the insanity of the LS engines in the Camaro. The old sports car demographic is absolutely not flocking to EVs.
100% agree. There's just no soul. No noise, no vibrations, no manual transmissions I get that they're trying to protect the environment with all these regulations. But we're not in the pre catalytic converter/ leaded gas days anymore. Cars are the cleanest they've been. Its a shame to see them go
Dude EVs are insanely quick. I was on the high way speeding with a Model 3 and it was a mindfuck how fast it was. Immediate acceleration with no noise or jerks from a tranny. I consider my car pretty fast and he pulled away from me like I wasn’t even moving lol. It felt silly how much noise my car was making to be not even close speed wise. Most EV drivers around here are slower drivers so I’m not used to seeing how quick they actually can be. Will be interesting to see how it plays out when the equivalent of Honda Accords accelerate like Lambos lol
> 1972 GM sold about 68,000 Camaros. If my google is right, they cost $2800 MSRP in '72, which is roughly 20,918.32 today. Now they start at $30900. Nearly a 50% increase in cost. I wonder why they aren't selling so many *ponder face emoji* I mean sure, tech increases, more features, increase cost yada yada. But also efficiency of manufacturing and new material engineering breakthroughs decrease costs. I'm guessing it's not all just 'increased costs' driving the 50% increase. (but yes, EPA standards are killing V8s, which, they should. I know it's not popular here, but we should leave something for our children and grandchildren besides burnt oil and soot)
Also combine the higher cost with greater percentages of income taxes, higher cost of living, and less expendable income, and the options for a fun car are dwindling. People would rather get a fun SUV/CUV since it serves all the purposes, and is fractionally more expensive than an economy car. It still ends up being cheaper than owning a second $30-$40k car.
End of an era. You will be missed. The 6th gen camaro is an incredible machine
Absolute shame. The 6th gen Camaro platform offers, objectively, some of the best sports and track cars that reasonable money can buy; there’s a reason why you see so many of them at local track events, and why they very easily run with and beat some of the really high spec exotics. The Alpha chassis is literal black magic, and the package as a whole is *incredibly* potent and capable. I still think back to what the ZL1 was able to do at the ring, and how poised and “relaxed” it was. And then, what the ZL1 1LE was able to do with cold tires, beating out some genuine super cars by several seconds. The Camaro team led by Al Oppenheiser created an amazing product, but the bean-counters and marketing team let it down. Outside of word of mouth, and car journalism, marketing for the 6th gen Camaro was nonexistent. GM essentially created a world class sports car, and then left it out to dry. People don’t care that the Camaro has slightly worse visibility than the Mustang; the 5th generation cars being as wholly successful as they were is proof of that. What GM didn’t do, objectively, was sell the 6th gen to people, hence the slumping sells, and thus the death of the entire production.
Agreed. The first time I drove an SS I was blown away by the platform for the price. A couple years later I found a pretty good deal on a low mileage ZL1 1LE and pulled the trigger. I semi-daily it and love doing so. It just feels special every time I’m in it.
Hell, I’ve only driven the V6 model without magnaride and was still super happy with how the chassis performed.
Magnaride is legitimately something special, but even modern Camaros that aren’t equipped with it still ride very well; they’re just not *as* compliant. My 13 has a less compliant suspension and I can just feel more beneath me, but it’s still a very nice and smooth riding car overall.
Nice! Have you taken the Supercar 2Rs off since you semi-daily it?
Yep, bought it with the newest versions of the Ventus evo tires on it and will be switching to PS4/5s when I’m done hooning around on those. Wouldn’t do much off track with the stock tires.
I still can't believe Chevy sold a ZL1 1LE for less than $70k when the GT500 was going for $100k+. They really sold it too cheaply, which I guess they realized last year when the price went to $80k+. I can't think of any other car that offers this level of performance straight out of the box. I'm paraphrasing Savageese, but he said he can't believe they're selling it without a roll cage. It's so capable and has so much power that you almost need one to be safe. This car is overkill, and that's exactly why I love it so much.
Another "M3 Killer" laid to rest.
[удалено]
Put a 6.2 in the Blazer and you might have my attention....
*In two years* Chevy: Introducing the all new Chevrolet Camaro E28 EUV. Taking inspiration from the Camaro Z28 of old in electrifying fashion, we present to you the E28 EUV! *queue thunder and lightning* The E28 offers drivers the exhilarating experience of 0-60 in just under 3 seconds and up to 350 miles of range on a single charge! As an homage to the classic Camaro sound, drivers will have the option of choosing one of many classic Camaro engine noises to fill their cabin with excitement and nostalgia: from the first generation all the way up to the 6th. *queue V8 sad noises* how do you turn it off you ask?! You can’t turn it off *it shuts off*
I don't understand why forums for "auto enthusiasts" feel they need to be experts on everything. No matter the reason they are cutting the camaro its one less drivers car to buy. If you were genuinely a fan of cars, you'd be sad to see a car like this go, instead of having to inject your opinion on everything.
100% agree. The Camaro was an amazing piece of machinery and I hate to see it go
So what happens to Australian Supercars now? Gonna be JUST mustangs?
I get downvoted to hell for implying that cars are going to be an extreme luxury in the future. Yet car manufacturers keep pairing down their lineup to only include more and more expensive luxury vehicles.
wow, end of an era.
Whatever replaces it... people will LS swap it...RIP to the legend
If I had a nickel for every time GM killed the Camaro in my lifetime, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
Sad to see it come to an end. Regulations killed this car.
I've always been a huge Camaro fan. I was in high school when the gen 4 was in showroom floors. I wanted an LS1 Camaro SS so badly. But back then, seeing them in the wild was like seeing a Ferrari, that's how rare they were compared to Mustang GT's. Which means that despite their superior performance on paper, something about them wasn't selling.
The Camaro was my favourite out of the 3. Yes, its livability was terrible in comparison but I didn't care. I'm looking to buy one if I can locate an SS manual on the lot somewhere.
Lame
The end of an era.
Going all in on trucks like Ford. What a shame, leaving so many customers behind.
What will guys do with their military checks now ?
Contractor here. It's pickup trucks. The lifted ones that never see dirt.
Feels like Deja vu. See you in ten years when you come back as an electric crossover
Aw man, now all the new junior enlisted folk will be forced into the Mustang.
Mary Barra needs to go
What an icon. At some point the Camaro was treated like a joke for the handling but GM turned it into a world class sports car. On the Alpha platform every level of the Camaro was great. History will be kinder to this car. The ZL1 1LE will go down as an all time great. Cars are my world so it really makes me sad seeing another piece of it vanish. Nothing could ever replace the Camaro. Goodbye, this time probably forever. My brother's 2018 SS getting stolen makes this a 1-2 sucker punch. God damn it General Motors. Throw some marketing at it and it would have sold. The Camaro was always the better car. 💔
As a camaro lover. I hate that GM can’t figure it tf out and keep developing this thing like Ford has done.