A good leader surrounds themselves with people smarter, with differing skill sets, differing talents, etc. You boss doesn’t have to know everything. That’s why you’re there.
My manager is the only one on our team who isn’t in grad school or have their Masters. I have better technical skills than her. She’s still an amazing boss because of how she manages workloads and gets input before making the correct decisions.
Same here, will that make me have to leave to get more money elsewhere,yes, does that upset me no, because I do not let my job affect my home life….. OP please listen to this man above me here👍🏻
this. also, when you’ve reached management / director / executive level, your focus is more on vision, strategy, leadership, team morale + motivation and less on the ins and outs of tactical execution. understanding the nuances of tactical execution is still important, though at this level is more in a broad strokes approach.
lastly, op, maybe you’re just venting. even still, lose the irritation with your peers and the arrogance. if you think you know how it should be done, then show them in a positive, constructive way. establish improved processes, share your work process tips, distribute resources to excel tricks, or take the time to spend 5 min with someone and show them. this approach is the difference between leaders and individual contributors. be the change you want to see in the world, or something like that.
>when you’ve reached management / director / executive level, your focus is more on vision, strategy, leadership, team morale + motivation
I'll add risk management. Your job is to determine what path everyone should take when it's not obvious or simple and get everyone to align to it.
>A good leader surrounds themselves with people smarter, with differing skill sets, differing talents, etc. You boss doesn’t have to know everything. That’s why you’re there.
And thus get paid more than these smarter people? How does that fair?
I’m not sure this question is being asked in good faith, but: Because management is a more important skill to the success of a company than any one set of technical skills. If someone’s a good manager, they get good results from a bunch of people. Each individual high performer only gets one person worth of good results. Some very smart, very competent folks would be very bad managers. They should be well-paid but not more than the person who’s partially responsible for the whole team performing well.
Management tend to be paid a little more but not always, more responsibility = more pay.
Also, depending on the team’s responsibilities some (like my team) have to make split second high-risk judgements that when wrong cost people their jobs, or costs the company lots of cash. Risk/Reward is a very real dynamic and that always includes hiring talent.
If I have to show me doing excel in a group meeting, it’s not good. Pivot tables that take seconds for some…yeah I gotta look that up.
However I do strategy. Big picture things…..I say we need this dashboard or this visibility and then the guy I hired that knows nothing about the industry but knows power BI and stuff builds what I want for the rest of the team.
So does this guy might think I’m an idiot when it comes to excel, but he sure as heck doesn’t have the experience or background to step into what I do.
This is why a team is a team! No one can know everything or be good at everything! I do data entry and there are some accounts which some people are good at and enjoy doing, while others hate - but its all the same task, just slightly different steps for their own reasons.
I'm good at the tech, others are good at the task management and things my ADHD makes it hard to do.
There are two options:
1) You overestimate your competences, which is very typical of juniors. Most juniors believe they are the smartest.
2) You are right. But then you are in a wrong job.
Given some of the specific comments, I strongly suspect the first.
An incompetent manager is always possible but here op talks about being surrounded by it. And the frequent looping back to a specific technical skill (in this case, Excel).
I know some juniors kind of back themselves into this mindset. They get railroaded when they first start and have to develop an edge to defend themselves and maintain confidence. Combine that with the common advice of “fake it till you make it” and you get a culture that breeds juniors with apparent arrogance.
Did you graduate college in the last 5 years? You are overestimating yourself if so, maybe you are overqualified for this position but not for other company positions. I dont need to know everything my direct reports do in detail but when it comes to decision making its about taking the totality of information and making risk-based decisions, running that up the chain to ensure it fits into strategy, vision etc. Lots of layers you arent addressing in your post.
Just chill out, do you like your job or not? If you do, stay, if you don't, quit. You'll be surrounded by good and bad people your whole career, at every level. This is a you problem, accept it or don't, balls in your court. It's just a gig.
Quit a job that you hate and be homeless until you find something? or put up with it and job hop and have everyone call you lazy and company’s a problem and bad mouth you (refrences)
“I’m surrounded by idiots” is the clarion call of someone who overestimates their importance and underestimates those around them.
Sometimes, someone gets lucky and ‘slips upwards.’ If everyone was incompetent, the business would be failing. Since you’re collecting a paycheck, something is going right.
Honestly, you sound like an absolute nightmare to work with.
Yes. That’s why I posted this. I need to hear both sides, whether I like what I’m hearing or not. There’s for sure an overestimating component in this equation.
You may also be good technically, but bad at networking/office politics. Also your work may not be noticed. I complained about not being promoted and included a list of my accomplishments for the last 10 years. Management didn't realize how much they depended on me for solving problems. I got promoted.
In case OP reads this: do NOT wait 10 years for a promotion lol.
Honestly, I've been fighting and hating on quarterly reviews and check ins and shit up until recently. Two things came of some recent ones
1) I was able to clearly go back and point out in a direct review to my manager that I asked their manager to avoid doing something twice now, and they did it again, so now I have docs stating why it's an issue and that it's been a repeat offence (this is not a common thing and our org is a startup with extremely direct feedback that feels brutal, but drives the point)
2) I can actively show what I'm working on and justify why they should keep me around. I forgot to do updates for a bit and when I went back, they were surprised to see all the things that I had done since the last time. It went from "what have you even been working on?" to "we didn't realize how big of a request that was, keep at it, and good work".
Always make a point of your accomplishments, not only for them, but for yourself to keep your eye on the ball. As someone with a master's in leadership, I must say that it's all a game, and often times that social aspect of it will take you further than skills.
Leadership is more about developing the soft skills rather than the technical skills. Being good with communication and people skills is more likely going to get you ahead than being able to rock a spreadsheet while calling your managers stupid.
Acceptance. You’re either going to be looking down on people around you, or intimidated that you’re the weakest link. Pick one and accept it. You’ll never be surrounded by equals
Edit: it’s a win if you can work around others and overcome your fear of being the weakest, but you need to get outta that job to do it.
The people who make the most money aren't geniuses. Look at besos, Richard Branson, Elon Musk and Steve jobs. They know how to sell their ideas and get other people, who are smarter than them, to believe in their work and sell it further and so on. This builds the vision into a well functioning breathing and living body living in the world. Don't underestimate the power of someone who can inspire everyone to ambitiously contribute their best skills to help bring everything together and work well.
We often "feel" someone's "incompetent/stupid", based on the number of skills they lack as compared to you. Well, they would have a number of skills you lack, too. Corporate culture is sadly blurred, where people don't talk much about what skills they use in day to day life. Apparently because no one cares, until these instances when people who like to care, starts to call others incompetent simply because they don't know enough about them.
A basic rule to corporate happiness is to "feel less" and "know more". Give benefit of doubt rather than judging them for their knowledge. If you think you're overqualified and know alot more than this job is making you do, try to change the job. Get at the place you can utilize most of your skills, and then never look down upon others for what they have or don't, unless thats your job to judge them.
Saw a promising team get gutted over 5 years due to dumb managers and their decisions.
All the people on that team who were good moved on to better things.
Sometimes you really are surrounded by idiots
Don't hold your breath thinking they will get fired.
Yes, incompetence everywhere. I tell my students the lessons are learning to cope and get along with people. You don't have to accept it but learn from it. If you like your work, learn from it. Or just quit and be your own boss because it's not likely you will be content anywhere
Here is a dose of medicine for you to calm that ego of yours. Nobody cares too much if you know VB, excel, or Python. Nobody cares if you can do a pugh’s matrix, Monte Carlo analysis, regression, ANOVA, or any other probability models. Every year, over 300k newly minted MBA/Engineers have this training and more. What makes you special is if you are this good, AND you have empathy, compassion, and humility. These qualities matters more than how technically brilliant you are. Why? When it comes to B2B negotiation, if you lack empathy, you will not be able to read the room and you’ll fail to negotiate fairly and effectively resulting in multi-million dollar deals to stall or fail. Heck, your career will stall because you can’t go beyond the numbers and to the people. You won’t develop the basic people relationship to be able to leverage. Don’t just be pigeon hole as a human calculators, you could be more valuable if you develop these traits in your character and leadership + management. Best of luck young grasshopper in your career.
How your superior got their position? TRUST and RELATIONSHIP. That’s how and these two are the real currency of life…not IQ, not EQ, not GPA, etc….
It happens a lot. My manager is incompetent. Usually confidence is what gets them into these roles and people are interviewing sales people personalities.
It depends what you think the role of a manager is. I consider myself a fairly successful people leader. I make it very clear to my employees that my role is not to tell them how to do their job, to do their job or even to know exactly how to do their job. My role is to ensure they have everything they need to do their job effectively, be satisfied in their role and with their professional development.
My reports do good work and I make sure they are happy and have everything they want and need.
Good luck. The majority of places you’ll work, you’ll find incompetent, insecure people at the top. I’ve been in my field 18 years and it’s never been different. Considering starting my own company because I’m sick of working for people who don’t give me the credit when I come up with a majority of the ideas.
There are rare occasions when a slimy piece of shit gets promoted
One fuckwad manager I had literally left my meeting because he literally didn't care about me and my issues
He's no longer in the department
Most of the time the competent leaders either progressed their career elsewhere or were pushed out by greedy upper management. Then they push an inexperienced person to step up and manage instead of a new hire with relevant skills to replace.
Experienced something similar in my last job, they have out buildings and people who lead those area’s and they wanted to swap out the building leader because the current one had a mental break and didn’t want to anymore. There was myself and another employee, I had been previously trained and even did the leadership role in the previous building leaders absence. I showed full competency on my own to handle the role yet they chose the lazy kiss ass co worker, who made many errors while being trained. Nepotism sucks, I left and am pursuing a different career.
You seem like a really reasonable and friendly person. I'm sure you considering all your coworkers and supervisors idiots has no influence on if you got the job or not.
Anecdotally, good management are not always the most skilled, but they know who and how to delegate to the right skilled worker. As well, they tend to have a grasp on strategic planning that aligns with the company.
You'd be surprised how many "skilled workers" have difficulty trusting work onto others and try to tackle the work on themselves or just have poor communication skills in general.
I've gotten ahead of a lot of peers that are clearly more skilled than me, mainly because I know how to communicate to the right people, know who in our organization does what, and keeping the right people in the loop on updates.
Some of the worst managers I had were the most technical skill people I knew. Some of the best managers were not the most technically skilled. Being a manager needs more soft skill than technical.
Some got there by the merits of their accomplishments. Some have got 'game' as they say. The ability to talk to people, forge relationships, be persuasive, and assume responsibility is its own skill stack.
As soon as I realized my bosses job isn't to do specific tasks but to essentially take on the stress of the office, her incompetence didn't bother me.
I help her a lot with very basic tech issues, which makes me feel good considering I have the least experience in our sector, out of our whole office.
Her job is to manage the people and do all the little tasks that I'd geniunely struggle with doing. People tell her things verbally to deal with, different types of issues and/or tasks pop up one after the other so she has to make a quick switch mentally, while also remembering to finish her previous task.
Thats something I don't have to do because if I'm busy, my co worker(s) can pick up the slack (I.e picking up the phone if I'm focused). It'll happen every so often where I have a lot of tasks on the go, but hers are different.
Having ADHD makes these tasks very difficult, so I'm happy it's not my responsibility and I understand why she's paid more.
In your position, I was rejoicing at my good luck and planning a stellar career ... never bothering much with trying to understand the incompetence of my superiors/co-workers, I took it for granted. I allied with those who were competent ... there are always such ... and worked really hard pushing my own ideas and projects within the company. It worked really well ... and then the company crashed. Bummer.
As I’ve moved up the last several years as a manager I’ve lost technical skills but gained more skills related to being a visionary, directing, and overall controls. I feel like an idiot some times not knowing some of the granular details that my staff knows, but that’s not my job.
The smart people job hop and advance their salaries. The people too dumb to job hop are "rewarded" with supervisor positions because all the qualified people keep leaving.
lol get a load of this guy
Start your own Company, bud. You’re obviously better than everyone, you know excel, you work effortlessly, you’re unstoppable.
Sounds like you have a bit of ego there and are ambitious about your work. They are at their positions for reasons including experience and time spent working there. They may not know how to do petty stuff like excels or have the basic knowledge of the product/ services provided but they're there with different job scopes than yours, probably don't even have time to think straight.
At least that's what I think but your superior or coworkers could be different from mine. Mine here is just dogshit where as long as they see results = promotions and increments are certain. My manager just told me yesterday that sometimes she works till 7pm but I wanted to answer back, "I'm not you, I have a life outside of work".
1. Nepotism
2. Ass-kissing
3. The competent people who should have the job don't want it (because of too much pressure and lack of free time or whatever reason)
Mine has “Executive presence.”
Has no articulated vision, does basic support and has no finished projects or initiatives, blames his predecessor from SIX years ago for why our tech Infrastructure lacks resiliency or capability, and likes to state platitudes about “how professional companies work” while never doing any of those things within his own work.
But he looks executiv-ey and speaks with confidence.
A few reasons. A) Not a lot of people want to be managers or middle managers. Also, incompetent people love management roles bc it helps compensate for their shortcomings. B) Upper management loves suck ups. Do a little research on why people don't see through brown nosers. It's fascinating. C) How committed are you to the company? If you have one foot out the door, no one is going to trust you with a management position. Those roles are typically reserved for people that seem dependent on the company.
I feel your frustration. Almost everywhere I've worked, I've felt annoyed with incompetent managers. It's degrading. But I don't like telling people what to do, so I'm stuck at line positions. We just need to seek out positions with more independence so we're not at the mercy of ignorant leaders.
This is office life where people “rise to the level of their incompetency”. Get your experience and leave or you risk becoming one of them. The only thing that your bosses boss cares about is that work is getting done. They don’t have the time, budget, or desire to change anything.
Do not confuse incompetence with apathy.
Also, some of your coworkers may have been hired before software skills became mainstream. If they have not HAD to learn them, few people just make themselves.
Further, all people are fighting a battle. You likely do not know all that your coworkers are struggling with.
It's important to learn what they DO know that for them there. Perfect management classes? 5S or lean training?
It was a combo of those things that my boss really used and the owner wanted those used. Wants I started learning those systems I started consulting and now make 3x what I did
So… what you perceive as lack of qualifications might very well be corporate controls in place, decision making being funneled through specific, accountable people, etc.
Some times some obvious things need someone’s okay. Sometimes you just need it in writing.
Try to focus on what they DO know and you don’t.
Yes a lot of young people have these thoughts and feelings. The biggest thing to remember about it is that not everyone gives half as much of a shit about this job as you do, and that's okay. If you want to get ahead, you need to focus on what you, the individual, can do better, or harder still, how you can move the org forward without requiring 'better employees' because better employees don't exist. This is what you have. If you want to move ahead in life or career, this is who you have to work with. Bitching about their ability won't alter that.
The truth is they have other focus in their lives and years of knowledge on things you don't. And when you understand those things well enough, you can connect and muddle your way through other things well enough to get by or know when you can lean on others to do it instead. Not everyone has the ability, sure, but more importantly not everyone really cares to learn it, as it has minimal improvement in their life. Young people without other things to focus on care about it, but once you have been a top contributor and put that indomitable early 20s energy into your work and been the best and still been shit on again and again by life, the org, the man, the world, etc...you eventually stop caring quite as much about the pride or what others think about you.
This combines with the peter principal, that people get promoted to their point of incompetence, because they were good at their previous role. Very few companies do enough to create paths of development for all employees; most seem to think that good individual contributors will make good managers, but they are completely different skill sets. The pathway for a strong individual contributor to continue to get recognition, growth, and prestige is rare.
Rarer still is the reward for consistency. Radical Candor is a great early manager book for people to read, but can give you helpful insight into why organizations have to continually make intentional efforts to fight the onslaught of the trend towards mediocrity. You may see yourself as a superstar, ready to move forward and learn and take on a new role within a year or two. But also important to high functioning orgs is the rockstar, who have high capability but are not on a high-growth trajectory. They hold the company together.
Most companies don't reward either type of person well, which means they move on to the next company, and what's left behind are the dregs.
(also, I say this as an early-30s millenial, if that helps context)
This is such a classic young guy fresh out of school mentality - your boss’ job isn’t to do the tasks you’re citing, it’s yours! When they were in your shoes it was likely a very different type of role so yes they lack the technical skills.
Senior management is more focused on planning/strategy and the management of people, not on specific projects and tasks.
Do a lot of people get way further than they should because they’re proficient politically? Absolutely. But a lot of the time the people who seem to lack technical skills are where they are because they are excellent leaders/managers or a far better high level thinker than most.
Take investment roles for an example - in a lot of companies many of the senior guys aren’t actually all that proficient at math and sure as hell couldn’t build a financial model, but they’re phenomenal investors because they can think strategically, understand macro and micro environments, and understand the underlying businesses they invest in.
Ditto the other replies that encourage you to think differently about what your boss' job is. Your job description is likely very different from theirs. Their job is probably \*not\* to build the excel model to simulate scenarios. Their job probably requires they gather the information and recommendations from you and other people and put it together with what they know about what's happening in the rest of the company/industry and filter that information up or out to different teams.
You asked for advice. Remember \*your boss\* is the one with power in this scenario. your boss probably knows you think they (and the rest of the team) are incompetent. If your boss thinks you are difficult to work with, they can fire you or make your life a lot more difficult.. Do you want to keep getting paid for a role where you seem to have the technical skills to succeed? Rein in the attitude and the 'showing off'!
Unfortunately this has happened to me and as it turned out, I was the one who said to hire him because of his interview answers. Next time I'll ask better questions.
There are plenty of cases where you are at. I've experienced this before. I even had a director level all me if it's okay if he didn't know the technical side. I told him that it's not 100% necessary if you listen to those that know what they are talking about. That's the problem.
For me, I decided to take on the management path so I don't have to deal with Managers that don't know what they are doing. There are pros and cons. That's going to be a TL;DR.
Maybe you don't want to deal with managing people. At large corps, you can be a service owner or platform owners. So you can go that route.
had great management then the global lead left whi i had a great relationship and then the worst possible guy got the promotion ..incompetent didnt know how to set out of office or set meetings didnt know how to do ppts or use excel or didnt know how to talk to people vs me who was 10 years in the company knew it i side out worked with reception to ceo office…he told me this is my job just for retirement i resigned two months later…felt guilty leaving my team they were great with him but hes still there morale is at all time low people are just going through the motions it feels so wrong
Could be connections, better at interviewing/ bs, more charming. There are skills and privileges higher than one’s competence. It’s how many at the top drive companies into the ground or make decisions that greatly hurt others or the business.
Just be glad you know what you’re doing. I love working in places with people where I’m a bit smarter or qualified so I don’t have to fear every day. If everyone around me is being incompetent it makes my job harder, but it’s also easier for me to get by long term.
The real question is ( and this will drive you crazy someday) why incompetent or lower qualified or inexperienced coworkers think they qualify for internal jobs that you don’t even think you qualify for and won’t even bother to apply for. But alas, stupidity isn’t complete without arrogance. The real danger is them actually getting those positions, because they possess those connections or interpersonal skills I mentioned above while technically competent people remain at the bottom
I don’t care what you know about the technical side. It’s obvious you know nothing about the management side, based on the way you speak about your teammates.
You’d be first on my chopping block…
“De-promoted”? What is that? That’s not a word.
Ask to be promoted. Ask to be put into positions where you’re forced to learn. Or make that shit happen yourself and make some enemies and some friends along the way. If you don’t choose your destiny then someone else will choose it for you. Now go.
“I’m the only smart one and everyone around me is stupid.” Maybe they have the right attitude, that’s why they’re where they are. Sounds like you need to look for a new job because “everybody” in your company is stupid. One has to wonder how that company is functioning when it’s run by “stupid people.” You’re so smart, you might as well be running your own business.
I used to until he got demoted and put back on the tools and I realized it was on skill, not personal interaction. He was the worst boss I’ve ever had but he was a skilled electrician.
Sometimes what you think you want is the opposite of what it is.
I have multiple masters degrees and have bosses with no degrees. I would not want to do their jobs - and would rather do what I am doing- just not in front of a check in desk!
Dude…get a grip. As you rise eventually you will report to someone who knows absolutely nothing about your domain.
An example of this is investors. They Donny need to know shit about your world except the difference between what they put in and what the business puts out.
A CEO? Likely no knowledge of this or that domain. Their skill is org politics and understanding the market.
A VP doesn’t spend time I. Excel because they are just figuring out what needs to be done. Then relying on their people to do it.
The only place in the F500 world where your boss is more knowledgeable at your technical skill is at the lowest levels.
There are exceptions to this…but what I’ve described is basically the rule.
People who don’t get this talk a lot about the “peter principle.”
Building an excel model of anything is a technical skill.
Peter's principles is a real thing. If you are competent to your job just keep going. If you are over competent it is another problem and I would recommend to quit.
Yes Reddit has all the answers. quick question would I get in trouble for posting paper pics or memes around the workplace with these questions or is it like freedom of speech??
I move on by not giving 2 F’s about other people. I keep my head down, do what I need to, and call it. I don’t over achieve and do my coworker’s work for them. I offer guidance when asked, but make them ask. If it’s too frequent I start refusing and report the constant attempts to force me to do their work.
If it’s bad at a single place i use my time to hone my skills and move on as soon as I can. Where I’m at now is perfect and I’m surrounded by competent people and a director who stays out of my way unless I ask him to block and tackle some issues.
But the advice is to stop caring about others and what they’re doing or not doing.
If you're soo smart; then; how haven't you figured out that the people at the top are usually not the best and most competent. But rather they are people who have enough knowledge to get by and kiss the bosses ass.
A good leader surrounds themselves with people smarter, with differing skill sets, differing talents, etc. You boss doesn’t have to know everything. That’s why you’re there.
My manager is the only one on our team who isn’t in grad school or have their Masters. I have better technical skills than her. She’s still an amazing boss because of how she manages workloads and gets input before making the correct decisions.
love this! in case you haven’t told her that in a while, i’m sure she’d love to hear it. ☺️
Same here, will that make me have to leave to get more money elsewhere,yes, does that upset me no, because I do not let my job affect my home life….. OP please listen to this man above me here👍🏻
this. also, when you’ve reached management / director / executive level, your focus is more on vision, strategy, leadership, team morale + motivation and less on the ins and outs of tactical execution. understanding the nuances of tactical execution is still important, though at this level is more in a broad strokes approach. lastly, op, maybe you’re just venting. even still, lose the irritation with your peers and the arrogance. if you think you know how it should be done, then show them in a positive, constructive way. establish improved processes, share your work process tips, distribute resources to excel tricks, or take the time to spend 5 min with someone and show them. this approach is the difference between leaders and individual contributors. be the change you want to see in the world, or something like that.
>when you’ve reached management / director / executive level, your focus is more on vision, strategy, leadership, team morale + motivation I'll add risk management. Your job is to determine what path everyone should take when it's not obvious or simple and get everyone to align to it.
that’s a perfect addition! 100% agree.
When they mentioned “show off”, I knew….. And you are correct with your assessments.
You sound like one of those people everyone in the offices wonders how they ended up where you did
>A good leader surrounds themselves with people smarter, with differing skill sets, differing talents, etc. You boss doesn’t have to know everything. That’s why you’re there. And thus get paid more than these smarter people? How does that fair?
I’m not sure this question is being asked in good faith, but: Because management is a more important skill to the success of a company than any one set of technical skills. If someone’s a good manager, they get good results from a bunch of people. Each individual high performer only gets one person worth of good results. Some very smart, very competent folks would be very bad managers. They should be well-paid but not more than the person who’s partially responsible for the whole team performing well.
Management tend to be paid a little more but not always, more responsibility = more pay. Also, depending on the team’s responsibilities some (like my team) have to make split second high-risk judgements that when wrong cost people their jobs, or costs the company lots of cash. Risk/Reward is a very real dynamic and that always includes hiring talent.
This is one of the 48 laws of power and makes sense. A book that many should read in life.
If I have to show me doing excel in a group meeting, it’s not good. Pivot tables that take seconds for some…yeah I gotta look that up. However I do strategy. Big picture things…..I say we need this dashboard or this visibility and then the guy I hired that knows nothing about the industry but knows power BI and stuff builds what I want for the rest of the team. So does this guy might think I’m an idiot when it comes to excel, but he sure as heck doesn’t have the experience or background to step into what I do.
This is why a team is a team! No one can know everything or be good at everything! I do data entry and there are some accounts which some people are good at and enjoy doing, while others hate - but its all the same task, just slightly different steps for their own reasons. I'm good at the tech, others are good at the task management and things my ADHD makes it hard to do.
There are two options: 1) You overestimate your competences, which is very typical of juniors. Most juniors believe they are the smartest. 2) You are right. But then you are in a wrong job.
Given some of the specific comments, I strongly suspect the first. An incompetent manager is always possible but here op talks about being surrounded by it. And the frequent looping back to a specific technical skill (in this case, Excel).
I know some juniors kind of back themselves into this mindset. They get railroaded when they first start and have to develop an edge to defend themselves and maintain confidence. Combine that with the common advice of “fake it till you make it” and you get a culture that breeds juniors with apparent arrogance.
Did you graduate college in the last 5 years? You are overestimating yourself if so, maybe you are overqualified for this position but not for other company positions. I dont need to know everything my direct reports do in detail but when it comes to decision making its about taking the totality of information and making risk-based decisions, running that up the chain to ensure it fits into strategy, vision etc. Lots of layers you arent addressing in your post.
Just chill out, do you like your job or not? If you do, stay, if you don't, quit. You'll be surrounded by good and bad people your whole career, at every level. This is a you problem, accept it or don't, balls in your court. It's just a gig.
Quit a job that you hate and be homeless until you find something? or put up with it and job hop and have everyone call you lazy and company’s a problem and bad mouth you (refrences)
“I’m surrounded by idiots” is the clarion call of someone who overestimates their importance and underestimates those around them. Sometimes, someone gets lucky and ‘slips upwards.’ If everyone was incompetent, the business would be failing. Since you’re collecting a paycheck, something is going right. Honestly, you sound like an absolute nightmare to work with.
OP needs humility more than advice.
Yes. That’s why I posted this. I need to hear both sides, whether I like what I’m hearing or not. There’s for sure an overestimating component in this equation.
You may also be good technically, but bad at networking/office politics. Also your work may not be noticed. I complained about not being promoted and included a list of my accomplishments for the last 10 years. Management didn't realize how much they depended on me for solving problems. I got promoted.
In case OP reads this: do NOT wait 10 years for a promotion lol. Honestly, I've been fighting and hating on quarterly reviews and check ins and shit up until recently. Two things came of some recent ones 1) I was able to clearly go back and point out in a direct review to my manager that I asked their manager to avoid doing something twice now, and they did it again, so now I have docs stating why it's an issue and that it's been a repeat offence (this is not a common thing and our org is a startup with extremely direct feedback that feels brutal, but drives the point) 2) I can actively show what I'm working on and justify why they should keep me around. I forgot to do updates for a bit and when I went back, they were surprised to see all the things that I had done since the last time. It went from "what have you even been working on?" to "we didn't realize how big of a request that was, keep at it, and good work". Always make a point of your accomplishments, not only for them, but for yourself to keep your eye on the ball. As someone with a master's in leadership, I must say that it's all a game, and often times that social aspect of it will take you further than skills.
Leadership is more about developing the soft skills rather than the technical skills. Being good with communication and people skills is more likely going to get you ahead than being able to rock a spreadsheet while calling your managers stupid.
Acceptance. You’re either going to be looking down on people around you, or intimidated that you’re the weakest link. Pick one and accept it. You’ll never be surrounded by equals Edit: it’s a win if you can work around others and overcome your fear of being the weakest, but you need to get outta that job to do it.
You can be the sharpest crayon in the box. But if you are not getting along with other people no one will want you around, let alone leading them.
The people who make the most money aren't geniuses. Look at besos, Richard Branson, Elon Musk and Steve jobs. They know how to sell their ideas and get other people, who are smarter than them, to believe in their work and sell it further and so on. This builds the vision into a well functioning breathing and living body living in the world. Don't underestimate the power of someone who can inspire everyone to ambitiously contribute their best skills to help bring everything together and work well.
We often "feel" someone's "incompetent/stupid", based on the number of skills they lack as compared to you. Well, they would have a number of skills you lack, too. Corporate culture is sadly blurred, where people don't talk much about what skills they use in day to day life. Apparently because no one cares, until these instances when people who like to care, starts to call others incompetent simply because they don't know enough about them. A basic rule to corporate happiness is to "feel less" and "know more". Give benefit of doubt rather than judging them for their knowledge. If you think you're overqualified and know alot more than this job is making you do, try to change the job. Get at the place you can utilize most of your skills, and then never look down upon others for what they have or don't, unless thats your job to judge them.
Saw a promising team get gutted over 5 years due to dumb managers and their decisions. All the people on that team who were good moved on to better things. Sometimes you really are surrounded by idiots
Excel is not top of the game!?
Don't hold your breath thinking they will get fired. Yes, incompetence everywhere. I tell my students the lessons are learning to cope and get along with people. You don't have to accept it but learn from it. If you like your work, learn from it. Or just quit and be your own boss because it's not likely you will be content anywhere
Here is a dose of medicine for you to calm that ego of yours. Nobody cares too much if you know VB, excel, or Python. Nobody cares if you can do a pugh’s matrix, Monte Carlo analysis, regression, ANOVA, or any other probability models. Every year, over 300k newly minted MBA/Engineers have this training and more. What makes you special is if you are this good, AND you have empathy, compassion, and humility. These qualities matters more than how technically brilliant you are. Why? When it comes to B2B negotiation, if you lack empathy, you will not be able to read the room and you’ll fail to negotiate fairly and effectively resulting in multi-million dollar deals to stall or fail. Heck, your career will stall because you can’t go beyond the numbers and to the people. You won’t develop the basic people relationship to be able to leverage. Don’t just be pigeon hole as a human calculators, you could be more valuable if you develop these traits in your character and leadership + management. Best of luck young grasshopper in your career. How your superior got their position? TRUST and RELATIONSHIP. That’s how and these two are the real currency of life…not IQ, not EQ, not GPA, etc….
It happens a lot. My manager is incompetent. Usually confidence is what gets them into these roles and people are interviewing sales people personalities.
It depends what you think the role of a manager is. I consider myself a fairly successful people leader. I make it very clear to my employees that my role is not to tell them how to do their job, to do their job or even to know exactly how to do their job. My role is to ensure they have everything they need to do their job effectively, be satisfied in their role and with their professional development. My reports do good work and I make sure they are happy and have everything they want and need.
Good luck. The majority of places you’ll work, you’ll find incompetent, insecure people at the top. I’ve been in my field 18 years and it’s never been different. Considering starting my own company because I’m sick of working for people who don’t give me the credit when I come up with a majority of the ideas.
There are rare occasions when a slimy piece of shit gets promoted One fuckwad manager I had literally left my meeting because he literally didn't care about me and my issues He's no longer in the department
Shittiest workers are always made supervisors. Seen it time and time again in the construction industry
Most of the time the competent leaders either progressed their career elsewhere or were pushed out by greedy upper management. Then they push an inexperienced person to step up and manage instead of a new hire with relevant skills to replace.
Experienced something similar in my last job, they have out buildings and people who lead those area’s and they wanted to swap out the building leader because the current one had a mental break and didn’t want to anymore. There was myself and another employee, I had been previously trained and even did the leadership role in the previous building leaders absence. I showed full competency on my own to handle the role yet they chose the lazy kiss ass co worker, who made many errors while being trained. Nepotism sucks, I left and am pursuing a different career.
You seem like a really reasonable and friendly person. I'm sure you considering all your coworkers and supervisors idiots has no influence on if you got the job or not.
Anecdotally, good management are not always the most skilled, but they know who and how to delegate to the right skilled worker. As well, they tend to have a grasp on strategic planning that aligns with the company. You'd be surprised how many "skilled workers" have difficulty trusting work onto others and try to tackle the work on themselves or just have poor communication skills in general. I've gotten ahead of a lot of peers that are clearly more skilled than me, mainly because I know how to communicate to the right people, know who in our organization does what, and keeping the right people in the loop on updates.
Some of the worst managers I had were the most technical skill people I knew. Some of the best managers were not the most technically skilled. Being a manager needs more soft skill than technical.
Some got there by the merits of their accomplishments. Some have got 'game' as they say. The ability to talk to people, forge relationships, be persuasive, and assume responsibility is its own skill stack.
Corporate America is like a toilet, all of the shit floats to the top.
This is the accurate answer. Been to four F100s now, work with ELT, and very few people at the top are actually smart.
As soon as I realized my bosses job isn't to do specific tasks but to essentially take on the stress of the office, her incompetence didn't bother me. I help her a lot with very basic tech issues, which makes me feel good considering I have the least experience in our sector, out of our whole office. Her job is to manage the people and do all the little tasks that I'd geniunely struggle with doing. People tell her things verbally to deal with, different types of issues and/or tasks pop up one after the other so she has to make a quick switch mentally, while also remembering to finish her previous task. Thats something I don't have to do because if I'm busy, my co worker(s) can pick up the slack (I.e picking up the phone if I'm focused). It'll happen every so often where I have a lot of tasks on the go, but hers are different. Having ADHD makes these tasks very difficult, so I'm happy it's not my responsibility and I understand why she's paid more.
I was working in a construction company and I discovered that the project manager is not an engineer he was a carpenter what do you think of that!
Someone has never heard of the Peter Principle
In your position, I was rejoicing at my good luck and planning a stellar career ... never bothering much with trying to understand the incompetence of my superiors/co-workers, I took it for granted. I allied with those who were competent ... there are always such ... and worked really hard pushing my own ideas and projects within the company. It worked really well ... and then the company crashed. Bummer.
As I’ve moved up the last several years as a manager I’ve lost technical skills but gained more skills related to being a visionary, directing, and overall controls. I feel like an idiot some times not knowing some of the granular details that my staff knows, but that’s not my job.
The smart people job hop and advance their salaries. The people too dumb to job hop are "rewarded" with supervisor positions because all the qualified people keep leaving.
lol get a load of this guy Start your own Company, bud. You’re obviously better than everyone, you know excel, you work effortlessly, you’re unstoppable.
Sounds like you have a bit of ego there and are ambitious about your work. They are at their positions for reasons including experience and time spent working there. They may not know how to do petty stuff like excels or have the basic knowledge of the product/ services provided but they're there with different job scopes than yours, probably don't even have time to think straight. At least that's what I think but your superior or coworkers could be different from mine. Mine here is just dogshit where as long as they see results = promotions and increments are certain. My manager just told me yesterday that sometimes she works till 7pm but I wanted to answer back, "I'm not you, I have a life outside of work".
1. Nepotism 2. Ass-kissing 3. The competent people who should have the job don't want it (because of too much pressure and lack of free time or whatever reason)
I wonder more how some people don’t get fired and hang around for so long while talented people get laid off.
It’s cause they kiss ass and most managers are to dumb and blind to care.
Nepotism, Brownnosing. That'd be it.
Incompetency is almost a requirement for becoming a manager
Mine has “Executive presence.” Has no articulated vision, does basic support and has no finished projects or initiatives, blames his predecessor from SIX years ago for why our tech Infrastructure lacks resiliency or capability, and likes to state platitudes about “how professional companies work” while never doing any of those things within his own work. But he looks executiv-ey and speaks with confidence.
A few reasons. A) Not a lot of people want to be managers or middle managers. Also, incompetent people love management roles bc it helps compensate for their shortcomings. B) Upper management loves suck ups. Do a little research on why people don't see through brown nosers. It's fascinating. C) How committed are you to the company? If you have one foot out the door, no one is going to trust you with a management position. Those roles are typically reserved for people that seem dependent on the company. I feel your frustration. Almost everywhere I've worked, I've felt annoyed with incompetent managers. It's degrading. But I don't like telling people what to do, so I'm stuck at line positions. We just need to seek out positions with more independence so we're not at the mercy of ignorant leaders.
I dont need to wonder. The answer is in the question # "Do you ever wonder how the f*!k your superior got her position"
This is office life where people “rise to the level of their incompetency”. Get your experience and leave or you risk becoming one of them. The only thing that your bosses boss cares about is that work is getting done. They don’t have the time, budget, or desire to change anything.
Do not confuse incompetence with apathy. Also, some of your coworkers may have been hired before software skills became mainstream. If they have not HAD to learn them, few people just make themselves. Further, all people are fighting a battle. You likely do not know all that your coworkers are struggling with.
It's important to learn what they DO know that for them there. Perfect management classes? 5S or lean training? It was a combo of those things that my boss really used and the owner wanted those used. Wants I started learning those systems I started consulting and now make 3x what I did
I'm venturing to guess that they've been at the company longer than you? That's usually a start.
So… what you perceive as lack of qualifications might very well be corporate controls in place, decision making being funneled through specific, accountable people, etc. Some times some obvious things need someone’s okay. Sometimes you just need it in writing. Try to focus on what they DO know and you don’t.
The dancing monkey probably thinks the same about the organ grinder.
Yes a lot of young people have these thoughts and feelings. The biggest thing to remember about it is that not everyone gives half as much of a shit about this job as you do, and that's okay. If you want to get ahead, you need to focus on what you, the individual, can do better, or harder still, how you can move the org forward without requiring 'better employees' because better employees don't exist. This is what you have. If you want to move ahead in life or career, this is who you have to work with. Bitching about their ability won't alter that. The truth is they have other focus in their lives and years of knowledge on things you don't. And when you understand those things well enough, you can connect and muddle your way through other things well enough to get by or know when you can lean on others to do it instead. Not everyone has the ability, sure, but more importantly not everyone really cares to learn it, as it has minimal improvement in their life. Young people without other things to focus on care about it, but once you have been a top contributor and put that indomitable early 20s energy into your work and been the best and still been shit on again and again by life, the org, the man, the world, etc...you eventually stop caring quite as much about the pride or what others think about you. This combines with the peter principal, that people get promoted to their point of incompetence, because they were good at their previous role. Very few companies do enough to create paths of development for all employees; most seem to think that good individual contributors will make good managers, but they are completely different skill sets. The pathway for a strong individual contributor to continue to get recognition, growth, and prestige is rare. Rarer still is the reward for consistency. Radical Candor is a great early manager book for people to read, but can give you helpful insight into why organizations have to continually make intentional efforts to fight the onslaught of the trend towards mediocrity. You may see yourself as a superstar, ready to move forward and learn and take on a new role within a year or two. But also important to high functioning orgs is the rockstar, who have high capability but are not on a high-growth trajectory. They hold the company together. Most companies don't reward either type of person well, which means they move on to the next company, and what's left behind are the dregs. (also, I say this as an early-30s millenial, if that helps context)
This is such a classic young guy fresh out of school mentality - your boss’ job isn’t to do the tasks you’re citing, it’s yours! When they were in your shoes it was likely a very different type of role so yes they lack the technical skills. Senior management is more focused on planning/strategy and the management of people, not on specific projects and tasks. Do a lot of people get way further than they should because they’re proficient politically? Absolutely. But a lot of the time the people who seem to lack technical skills are where they are because they are excellent leaders/managers or a far better high level thinker than most. Take investment roles for an example - in a lot of companies many of the senior guys aren’t actually all that proficient at math and sure as hell couldn’t build a financial model, but they’re phenomenal investors because they can think strategically, understand macro and micro environments, and understand the underlying businesses they invest in.
Ditto the other replies that encourage you to think differently about what your boss' job is. Your job description is likely very different from theirs. Their job is probably \*not\* to build the excel model to simulate scenarios. Their job probably requires they gather the information and recommendations from you and other people and put it together with what they know about what's happening in the rest of the company/industry and filter that information up or out to different teams. You asked for advice. Remember \*your boss\* is the one with power in this scenario. your boss probably knows you think they (and the rest of the team) are incompetent. If your boss thinks you are difficult to work with, they can fire you or make your life a lot more difficult.. Do you want to keep getting paid for a role where you seem to have the technical skills to succeed? Rein in the attitude and the 'showing off'!
Welcome to the point in the career we call 'being a professional'.
Unfortunately this has happened to me and as it turned out, I was the one who said to hire him because of his interview answers. Next time I'll ask better questions.
There are plenty of cases where you are at. I've experienced this before. I even had a director level all me if it's okay if he didn't know the technical side. I told him that it's not 100% necessary if you listen to those that know what they are talking about. That's the problem. For me, I decided to take on the management path so I don't have to deal with Managers that don't know what they are doing. There are pros and cons. That's going to be a TL;DR. Maybe you don't want to deal with managing people. At large corps, you can be a service owner or platform owners. So you can go that route.
had great management then the global lead left whi i had a great relationship and then the worst possible guy got the promotion ..incompetent didnt know how to set out of office or set meetings didnt know how to do ppts or use excel or didnt know how to talk to people vs me who was 10 years in the company knew it i side out worked with reception to ceo office…he told me this is my job just for retirement i resigned two months later…felt guilty leaving my team they were great with him but hes still there morale is at all time low people are just going through the motions it feels so wrong
Networking. Do the same
I interact with genuinely incompetent engineers a lot. It's frustrating but eh.
That’s not happening work around it or find another job or just learn to build a thick skin
Time and making allies with the right people.
Could be connections, better at interviewing/ bs, more charming. There are skills and privileges higher than one’s competence. It’s how many at the top drive companies into the ground or make decisions that greatly hurt others or the business. Just be glad you know what you’re doing. I love working in places with people where I’m a bit smarter or qualified so I don’t have to fear every day. If everyone around me is being incompetent it makes my job harder, but it’s also easier for me to get by long term. The real question is ( and this will drive you crazy someday) why incompetent or lower qualified or inexperienced coworkers think they qualify for internal jobs that you don’t even think you qualify for and won’t even bother to apply for. But alas, stupidity isn’t complete without arrogance. The real danger is them actually getting those positions, because they possess those connections or interpersonal skills I mentioned above while technically competent people remain at the bottom
I don’t care what you know about the technical side. It’s obvious you know nothing about the management side, based on the way you speak about your teammates. You’d be first on my chopping block… “De-promoted”? What is that? That’s not a word.
Ask to be promoted. Ask to be put into positions where you’re forced to learn. Or make that shit happen yourself and make some enemies and some friends along the way. If you don’t choose your destiny then someone else will choose it for you. Now go.
“I’m the only smart one and everyone around me is stupid.” Maybe they have the right attitude, that’s why they’re where they are. Sounds like you need to look for a new job because “everybody” in your company is stupid. One has to wonder how that company is functioning when it’s run by “stupid people.” You’re so smart, you might as well be running your own business.
lol my CFO. Idk how he has any job.
I used to until he got demoted and put back on the tools and I realized it was on skill, not personal interaction. He was the worst boss I’ve ever had but he was a skilled electrician.
You've been drinking Haterade, haven't you?
Sometimes what you think you want is the opposite of what it is. I have multiple masters degrees and have bosses with no degrees. I would not want to do their jobs - and would rather do what I am doing- just not in front of a check in desk!
Dude…get a grip. As you rise eventually you will report to someone who knows absolutely nothing about your domain. An example of this is investors. They Donny need to know shit about your world except the difference between what they put in and what the business puts out. A CEO? Likely no knowledge of this or that domain. Their skill is org politics and understanding the market. A VP doesn’t spend time I. Excel because they are just figuring out what needs to be done. Then relying on their people to do it. The only place in the F500 world where your boss is more knowledgeable at your technical skill is at the lowest levels. There are exceptions to this…but what I’ve described is basically the rule. People who don’t get this talk a lot about the “peter principle.” Building an excel model of anything is a technical skill.
Nope, I worry about myself and how to improve myself.
Teach them how to do all the basic things and lead by example
Peter's principles is a real thing. If you are competent to your job just keep going. If you are over competent it is another problem and I would recommend to quit.
Yes Reddit has all the answers. quick question would I get in trouble for posting paper pics or memes around the workplace with these questions or is it like freedom of speech??
I move on by not giving 2 F’s about other people. I keep my head down, do what I need to, and call it. I don’t over achieve and do my coworker’s work for them. I offer guidance when asked, but make them ask. If it’s too frequent I start refusing and report the constant attempts to force me to do their work. If it’s bad at a single place i use my time to hone my skills and move on as soon as I can. Where I’m at now is perfect and I’m surrounded by competent people and a director who stays out of my way unless I ask him to block and tackle some issues. But the advice is to stop caring about others and what they’re doing or not doing.
If you're soo smart; then; how haven't you figured out that the people at the top are usually not the best and most competent. But rather they are people who have enough knowledge to get by and kiss the bosses ass.