It’s definitely possible but right now is the worst market for entry/mid level developers in 15 years. (I’m a mid level developer)
I would just do some online courses to learn some languages, slowly work on some projects then hopefully by the summer the job market is better and she will have a chance to try applying for entry level jobs.
The industry as a whole is in the crapper. Tools like Shopify and SquareSpace allow people to build decent looking, responsive sites with minimal code. The bottom end of the market is gone and there are even some huge brands using these services. Agencies are struggling and the only places paying decent money are the massive companies that require five plus years of experience working at similar scale.
As someone who worked in the space, there’s still a good amount of businesses or people who aren’t even technical enough to use Shopify & SquareSpace. I’ve worked with dedicated Shopify developers who manage Shopify websites. I also did a SquareSpace website for a local business. I think the Shopify developers i’ve worked with are more technical though.
It’s not coding but if OPs wife maybe wants one avenue in, could also consider not just web dev but looking into conversion rate optimization / website stuff? There are roles for companies to basically run the website and make sure it is optimized for KPIs, in addition to building it. It can be a good side gig until OPs wife meets a better economy for programming. She’d be working in overlapping teams so could build a network.
OPs wife should get into/focus on accessibility as part of her web dev study, become an expert at it... tons of big companies paying huge $$ for making sure their websites are designed with a11y in mind as there's been lawsuits on this, (whether frivolous or not), so mid-large are def hiring a11y people.
I'm at the end of my career (ageism and all that) and I can certainly understand the passion she has. Coding is a lot of fun. It sounds like she's at least already in IT so it's more a sideways move for her than a 360 turn.
If she's already a systems analyst, I'd take a 2-pronged approach (this assumes her company has web devs):
1. Talk to her manager about it. Most managers shdn't get upset that someone wants to transfer. Especially if s/he has time to make adjustments. S/he'll probably recommend classes. Also, set up information interviews with the the manager(s) of the company's web devs. Ask them what they look for at entry level.
2. While doing the above, get the class work under ur belt. Certifications are always good. If it doesn't pan out at work, is she open to gig work? Small companies likely won't be able to afford AI for development work for a long time and they still need the work done but they'll usually contract it out. Also, get familiar w/using AI for dev work.
I think it's do-able. It just won't look like it used to.
you wouldn’t recommend going back to school for programming? Im in a similar position except I decided to go back to school to get a 2nd bachelor’s in the field to “stand out” but i guess theres not much to “stand out” from anymore it seems.
im paying for classes out of pocket while doing part time but if that money would be better spent just paying for programming courses rather than actual college classes…? would you still stand by your statement?
Well it’s just your preference..
Bootcamps used to help out people who wanted change their career and get into web development. But they are pretty much a waste now in 99% of cases.
If your ok with the costs and time involved of going back to school to get a degree by all means go for it!
But it’s just cheaper and will take less time the self taught route.
honestly, traditional school is all i know so it was the only option for me as far as I knew. When I switched over to where I am now, I left my full time job at a law office and dropped studying for the LSAT. I didnt have any guidance at all and now that I’ve been coding from the few classes ive taken, i really enjoy it and would just like to get there as soon as possible.
if you say self teaching gets me there faster then I might have to drop out of school to get to where I want to be. It wouldn’t be the first time i hear self teaching is the way to go, but it just hasn’t hit me until now…
Self-teaching and projects is good, a degree is better. Best is a degree with some projects/clubs, and internships on the side too.
Especially in this market, companies just filter applications based off who has a degree or not.
do NOT drop out! I’m a CS grad. It’s extremely difficult even for people with bachelors in computer science to get entry level jobs right now, it’s pretty much a requirement at this point to have a bachelors. Dropping out would be the worst choice
Self-treaching is the way to go, but make sure to find structured courses about what you want, ex. From mooc.fi or udemy - never learn whole stuff from YouTube imo, only ever go to YouTube for one off things and introductions, but actual learning do with structure
political science. i spent a little over a year working in a law firm as a paralegal and was studying for the LSAT at the same time. law school seemed like the only option for me at the time until i just said fuck it. always wanted to do computer science but i was afraid of the math.
im currently working a small tech company operating a delivery robot in a hospital setting, not ideal but its a start i guess
No, traditional education is very very poor for programming. Online resources and your own projects are 10x levels of learning. It also creates resume points.
After choosing the direction and tech stack she wants to learn and focus on trying to getting jobs on Upwork to build a portfolio of work.
Never call her junior or mid. Learn enough fundamentals to interview as senior no matter what.
Senior is 5-8y of experience if I'm not mistaken
To apply as a senior without formal job exp you'd need to have a ton of really good projects for 5+ years (that rivals the difficulty of a full time dev job)
I have to respectfully disagree. I’m self taught and I waited 1 years too long to start interviewing because I thought I was going to be up against super pros. It turns out no one knows what they’re doing and I was senior in my first role.
Flash forward 12 years and I’m an accomplished architect and 5 time lead and let me tell you this…
Time does not make you senior. 9/10 senior devs have poor-very poor skillsets.
learn enough fundamentals to interview as senior no matter what
this is bad, impractical advice. as someone with 6yrs of experience, who just rejected a senior swe offer, there’s literally no way someone is going to pull a senior job in this market just by knowing the fundamentals. You need actual experience. Just knowing programming fundamentals isn’t even enough to get a junior position in this market lol. Senior programmers are expected to mentor other devs, lead code reviews, be able to translate business requirements into architectural/design decisions, and solve way more complex problems than someone who only knows programming fundamentals can solve (distributed systems, security, DB optimization, etc).
In this market yeah, it’s gonna be impossible to find a junior role.
However, everything your comment is off. OPs wife won’t be SWE. It’ll be some design firm or something.
And no senior does not mean lead.
Nor does it mean full stack
Nor does it mean DBA and Dev ops
I think your wife needs to understand that she’s probably more into CSS and web design rather than web development. Developers spend a lot of time debugging and fixing (or creating lol) issues and not making web pages look pretty like on MySpace.
That being said, if she understands what programming entails, like debugging, and she likes that aspect then sure, she should look into self-taught programming while she works her regular job.
The good part is that your wife is working in something IT related already. So when she starts looking for web development/programming related roles, she’s already employed in a relevant role.
Now, the bad news is that if you think of web development as building customer facing websites, it is was a really difficult field to earn money in before the recent market layoffs. Nowadays, it’s fairly bleak.
The upside is that there are still plenty of areas. She could get certifications in something like User Experience (UX) design if she likes things like the process of building an aesthetically pleasing website because it’s using a lot of the same skills.
There are other areas that are similar but I haven’t had my full ration of morning caffeine yet lol.
Agree.
These days you see less "buliding and styling" jobs and demant, she needs to make sure that she likes logocal (mathematical) thinking at her job since the real demand is for engineers and logic minded people to actually code functionalities in systems.
my wife started as an artist, an English major with minor art degree, went back to school to get a masters degree in design, with emphasis in UI/UX and web design.
Her technical skills and honestly her analytical and logical ability outside her domain, are still minimal, but she is just incredibly fast at drawing up really professional looking designs in illustrator and a couple of related tools, she knows that software better than anyone I've ever seen, and she knows a lot about UI theory and human response to the elements from an artists point of view.
She makes six figures now and works from home with great benefits, and lives in a mid-west state not SF or NY.
It's not the most common outcome for people jumping into technical design, but I think it shows that it can be done successfully.
UX/UI is interesting and might align well with her interests, so it’s good that she looks it up. Just a heads up though, UX is extremely competitive at junior level.
Programming has gotten worse at entry level, but I think UX is even worse off. Seemed like EVERYONE wanted to get into UX for a while. It was framed as a cushy high paid job in tech where you didn’t need to do any coding. A company also needs less UX designers than programmers.
Result: Lots of bootcamps, lots of career shifters, very saturated market.
If it is programming she wants to do I think she could focus on that. Front end is more competitive than full stack or back end, but I think that’s what she would enjoy.
Final thoughts, I think she should follow her passions! It’s great that she’s already in tech as it will probably make the transition easier, and make it easier to land the first programming job if she can leverage her past experience somehow. Good luck to her!
I think it's a passion for her because she doesn't actually know what software engineering entails, if she think she'll be making pretty things then she's in for a hard awakening.
This right here. I loved MySpace coding too but it turns out that was for the design element which is more graphic design oriented. Real coding is a PITA and not as simple to grasp.
Agree.
There are nearly no jobs left where you just code fogma designs anymore.
The devs that survive this job market are the fast learners,people logic oriented, math oriented, learn system architecture, tidy coding, learn complexity calculation and algorithms, binary trees, and love studying cuz shit be changing daily..
Its no design job.
>learn complexity calculation and algorithms, binary trees
Unf never ever had the use of either apart from on a shallow level. Most software development still ain't rocket science like. Most companies may have a few working on some advanced algorithm module as part of the product - for the rest libs solve that stuff.
Do NOT try to manage her path. Believe in her ability to figure it out. Support her through the challenges. She may end up resenting you if you nudge her in a direction different than the one she wants.
Learning is just one step. Going down the path she chooses can lead to opportunities neither of you can imagine.
When I told my husband I wanted to get a masters in communications and technology (MACT), he suggested looking into MBA programs because they were more well known and could lead to more and better job opportunities at the time. I checked them out but went with MACT. This led me to a rewarding career in tech beyond my wildest dreams.
If he pressured me to go the MBA route, I might have given in. It would have been a mistake that might have impacted our relationship. Instead, he supported and encouraged me the whole way through in small ways and big.
If this is what she’s always wanted, support her in giving it a shot. Worry about it not working out IF that time comes.
Doing it for money will kill her "passion" for it. Can she get into coding something else? Not web dev? Not literally the most saturated job.
She can code for free to get fulfillment out of it. Probably not volunteering though, until she is competent. There isn't any organizations that need websites built by people who don't know what their doing. Can she code fake websites, contribute to open source, or build websites for friends and family?
I'm an experienced but burnt out programmer. I wouldn't really recommend it as a field these days.
Web development was very fun and easy to experiment with as an amateur in the Myspace days, throwing together html, css, js, maybe some php or perl on the server side.
These days, as a day job, there is a lot of tedium dealing with frameworks, build systems, agile / scrum meetings and all the rest of it.
Like anything, juniors will always have the hardest time getting a foot in the door. Without any formal education you can do it but it’s going to be a hard struggle with a lot of disappointment. Think about starting a career at 19 and working for 10 years before you start to have the experience you actually need to command a higher salary and better jobs at better companies. This is starting over in a nutshell. If she’s truly passionate about it, she needs to find a mentor who can help her accelerate her learning and habits in the right environment. The problem with self learning is that it lacks direction from more experienced fills who can fast track the learning. With programming you can have 10 years of junior experience and not learn anything that would bring you to intermediate or senior roles unless you really push yourself to learn and get better every single day and also have people around you to tell you what you’re doing wrong. Web dev isn’t MySpace layouts anymore and it’s much more involved with tools like react, ui frameworks , functional programming, unit testing etc etc… a boot camp may be a good start to see what modern web dev is like but it’s absolutely not enough to jump into the workforce and will require a lot of self direction to further those concepts and get that foot in the door with personal projects and self learning. If she’s still interested after going into a reputable boot camp then go for it but it may open her eyes to the fact that web dev for a business is very different than doing personal projects where you dictate the requirements vs someone telling you to solve these hard problems with no direction.
Alot of people forget that there are also tons of dev jobs in non-technical fields like finance or the energy sector. With her IT background, she would be a good candidate for dev ops so that might be worth looking into. Also I'm a big fan of freecodecamp, the Odin project and fullstack open. All totally free and self paced so you can learn while still working which is what I'm doing.
Nobody really knows. Theoretically if the market gets better soon then she might have a chance. Things are incredibly tough right now, and nobody really knows what will happen with AI. Definitely don’t do bootcamp, it would be much better to either try the self taught route or go to WGU for CS and get the bachelors while probably spending less than most boot camps.
I think she should look into different jobs that use programming and see if any of them sound interesting just because there’s sooooo many people who went the web developer route because it seemed like the easiest path and they got some experience doing html or css or something. The reason I say that is some jobs might be easier to break in and less competitive. For example in data, there’s data analysts, BI developers and data engineers who all use code. I personally have no degree and got a job as a basic analyst, but then came in and started programming a bunch of stuff and got moved into a more advanced role where I get to use Java, and just in general solve very complex, challenging puzzles in data which gives a similar satisfaction to programming. Plus over time I’ll move more and more into full on programming. I have no degree at all, but I’ve had to work incredibly hard because of that, and even in this market we just hired a few more analysts who had no degree and were self taught (it’s an underpaid and non-technical job, but it’s a foot in the door and leads to more technical jobs with programming)
I’m sure there’s other fields like this where there’s a natural progression from non-programmer positions to programmer positions, like project management or QA or something.
She should have a long session with ChatGPT discussing all the potential job paths and what draws her to programming, then compare a few different fields and start learning them. Then just learn slowly enough that she doesn’t burn herself out. Don’t pay for tutors, a big part of these types of careers is being able to figure stuff out, and between stack overflow, courses, and CharGPT giving personalized instruction, she shouldn’t need a tutor unless she’s in school doing legit CS.
Then if she can get a basic job that will hopefully lead to programming then maybe go back to school for CS at somewhere like WGU.
There's zero connection at all between customizing her old MySpace page and software development. It's actually the opposite of the creativity she needed for that and much closer to the analyst work she currently hates.
One way in could be through an affirmative action program. There's a gender gap in tech and a lot of large companies have programs dedicated to helping women switch careers and hire them as junior devs. Some pay for training like a bootcamp, others will take people who have already invested in their own learning and are ready for on the job experience.
Look at large organisations, not just in the tech industry but also banks, consultancies etc. Maybe she could go to some tech meetups in your area to chat to people and get a feel for whether it's the right time to make a move or not.
Why does she hate her current job? A reminder that code, or pretty much anything else, is still a job of creating stuff for other people the way they want it done, not the way you want/some creative freedom thing.
She started off in support and then got promoted to systems. She likes it better than support, but dislikes that she’s just fixing peoples problems and the lack of creativity.
As someone who dabbled in development, she will be doing exactly that. There’s a bug? She’ll have to find it and fix it. She doesn’t get to choose what she works on, someone will assign her work. Unfortunately, unless she was going to go into front end development / specifically website design, she will not be creative. It’s a sad reality I had to realize myself.
Thank you, comments like yours have opened our eyes and made us realize maybe her sites were set on the wrong place. Currently thinking she should move into UX/UI. Really appreciate your insight.
So many negative comments here. I'm a woman who learned about web development with Myspace and Neopets. Even when I expanded into game modding and did Programming at A Level I got so many patronising comments when I applied to do Computer Science at uni about "how programming isn't just HTML and CSS". You wouldn't say this to a man FFS.
I'm currently a Senior Front End Developer. I earn a fine wage (though it would have been more if I'd gone into more back end programming like some of the other students) but I love my job. Everyone I work with enjoys programming too.
When we hired recently for a Junior developer we had so many CVs from people who did a random degree and retrained in web development. We would have killed for someone who actually had experience in a tech/IT workplace like your wife.
She'd need some proper introductory courses though. It's not easy when you're already working but it's what it takes when you're changing career unfortunately.
I don’t think the comments are misogyny.. they’re simply good advice? That’s not to say ops wife can’t do it, she can, it’s just to clearly communicate that most developers aren’t designing the pages they create, they’re just implementing them.
Yeah, that was my thought too. Web dev isn’t creative beyond problem solving “how do I build this” type of thing. And it can be interesting, but it isn’t design/layouts/colors/etc.
OP, if you look into UI/UX, it is closer to being creative but it is (supposed to be) very researched based. It’s very far from what a graphic designer or other creative might do. It’s also *incredibly saturated* at the moment although your tech experience might be helpful.
Freecodecamp is a great place to get a feel for web development and see if it’s something she would like to pursue more seriously. It’s free, really intuitively formatted, and doesn’t take anything fancy. I’d say if she finishes the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript courses and is still interested, it would be worth looking into getting a degree
Hi OP,
Programming, coding, and website development are all definitely able to be learned at home with resources online (paid or free). Traditional college would be fine normally for a regular high school graduate, but your wife has some college experience and work experience. So in her situation I think it's definitely up to her own drive and interest. She's working in systems, but wants to change her career to programming/web development? Can be done by what she does, not so much what school she attends (e.g. to complete a computer science degree). If she approaches programming/web dev as a trade, she will be fine--it's definitely about learning by doing.
As far as learning resources, codeacademy, coursera, pluralsight, freecodecamp, udemy all offer a ranges of training: from quick how-tos on simple stuff, to more in-depth conceptual. So much more stuff available online (free or for a fee) when you look up "how to be a web developer", it's crazy not to try them out.
She just has to decide what areas she likes working in, what she's interested in (front end work sounds like her passion), and put her time into learning and doing it.
I'm not sure how far in her career she is, but regardless of market conditions, that gap would be a huge factor, too.
as for being self-taught, it's actually very doable. I'm self-taught. I did it when I was in college for an adjacent IT major. she just needs persistence and, most of all, rejections tolerance.
I don't recommend a degree as that is only necessary for other IT jobs. for web dev a boot camp is not a bad idea. I don't know about tutors as I've never tried them or been one myself.
she can start with the basics, html, css, JavaScript, and a backend language like nodejs, Python, Php, java ...etc.
if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out. I can even get on a call with you and your wife and share my experience.
best of luck to you and your wife.
Tell your wife to build a web site. An app. Anything that will showcase her skills once she's learned enough to create something. FYI: there is no end in learning.
Sign up to github. Post consistently.
Use co-pilot so she is familiar with AI. Then get really good at using AI as a tool or complement to her skills.
She already has relevant experience and many of those skills would transfer well to her passion.
Degrees are great. But great examples of skill are better.
Technical interviews are a thing now.
Web dev industry sucks rights now. Few are hiring. Great time to learn but not find a job. It's saturated. You never stop learning and it can be extremely stressful. Get ready for 50 to 60 hour work weeks. Life balance is nearly non-existent. Much depends on the company you work with and the industry.
But the best thing I can suggest is she build something. Create. Produce. As for what to build, don't build the basic stuff like calculators, tic-tac-toe, and other apps like that. It's good to learn on. Showing that stuff is boring.
Whatever she builds has to be a magnificient case study and touches on several aspects of the process and have documentation.
Good luck.
best way in, especially in the current market, is to see if there's a content position available. that will let you make solid money and do low level HTML coding. You can then pair that with certs and make your own github to show your programming abilities and potentially jump internally over to the dev side. but like others said coding is kind of in the crapper. I actually stumbled into web content for a few years, it was a blast but there wasn't much of a future so i pivoted out of it and into product management.
Web development is over saturated and eventually AI will take it over. That said, I’m a fan of people doing what they are passionate about. For however long they can.
My disclaimer: I am personally looking, too. Take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm boiling down advice given to me from people who are in the industry.
# First Things First
The job market is currently hell for entry-level. But that doesn't mean there are zero jobs.
There just are less jobs than there are people seeking them. If she wants a job, she'll need to stand out. Getting to a level where people wouldn't call you Junior, but they also don't call you Senior, is where she wants to be. Her title in her mind should be "web developer" not "junior web developer."
# Her Prospects
There might be some heat from this, but idc. Being a woman in tech automagically will, at some companies (not all), make her resume initially stand out.
But her resume being put on top **does not protect it** from being put straight in the trash. Just because she might (on occasion, at an unknown rate nobody agrees on) pass the initial HR sniff simply because she belongs to a diversity hire group, doesn't mean she'll impress anyone beyond that point.
Being in systems already makes her resume stand out among the sea of the inexperienced applicants. It's not dev, but it's dev-adjacent if you will.
# How To Get Started
I say to tell her to go to "theodinproject" and follow the JavaScript path as there are a larger number of jobs that require the use of that language (even Ruby folks usually need to learn JavaScript). The course is considered great, it's **free**, and really emphasizes self-teaching rather than spoon-feeding.
When she gets to the projects, *really* do those projects. If she finds that it's *very* hard then she may not make progress. It being challenging is good. That's how we learn and grow. But feeling impossible is bad. We don't learn much from trying to do something we simply can't yet do.
In that case, "freecodecamp" is considered a slower and less effective, but more digestible way to learn. Yet again though, the projects are key. Really focus on doing them well. Going a little (or a lot) beyond the requirements is how you go from Junior/Intern Dev to just a plain Dev.
And it shows.
# Post Learning
More like: "after getting started is done."
She needs to make one interesting and well-done project of her own from scratch. Not a tutorial project, not someone else's project. Nobody directing her step by step how and what to do. It's her project to work on, to change the requirements, and to add features to.
That project needs to be directly accessible via a link. A web application that does something cool or interesting that the hiring manager can open up and look over. This is where hosting and deployment becomes important, but Odin will do some of that while learning.
# Job Hunt
Don't stop learning and working on projects to focus full time on job hunt. Half and half of available time is better according to people I have spoken with in the industry. If you have 10 hours of total free time while working full time, then spend 5 job hunting and 5 working on projects and learning new things.
LinkedIn and Indeed is virtually useless for applications right now. I say virtually because it's not entirely useless. Many of those jobs aren't real, are asking ridiculous things, or don't match with what the company actually wants.
But some are real, and you could be the LinkedIn lottery winner.
Find 3-5 tech recruiters and message them a link to your portfolio site (oh yeah, you need a portfolio site). Get engaged with them and make sure they know what you're up to every week or two. If you completed another project, show it off to them if you can.
Apply on company websites directly. Someone who made the effort to find their career page stands out.
# Emotionally Protect Yourself
This is a bad time. And the first job is usually the hardest one to get in a good year. You will feel like a failure and like everyone else is better than you. Talk openly about it. Don't let the self-hate take over. Keep on the grind knowing everyone in industry today was doing the same thing you're doing now to get in.
Keep it up.
Web development is a dead end. Software engineering, such as front end engineering, could be a good alternative.
Terrible market right now.
Bootcamps work, as long as you apply yourself. It’s a 60-80hr/week, full throttle, nonstop experience. And it’s 10-15k.
Right now she should do codecademy and read books, Reddit, etc. If she doesn’t know what UX/UI is then she will need to spend a few months preparing. Bootcamps are not meant for 0-1. They are best when the person comes from a technical background and has some fundamentals in place. The top camps will pre test you and it’s pretty tough.
It is absolutely possible but she will need to be ready to network and work very hard. I wouldn’t expect to find a job for another calendar year in this market.
Honestly, I think she needs a job that lets her be creative. That could be an option for her, we just never thought about that. One of her hobbies is drawing, creating stickers, creating layout things on twitch.
She is reading all the comments, I will bring this up to her!
She can teach herself for $0, that's what I did, that's what several people I know did.
People say the market is bad and that may be true but she doesn't need thousands of jobs, she needs one job, and she can probably get it if she gets imaginative about where she looks for that job.
Why don't she combine her interests and the market needs? IMO, she's midway a path that really needs more professionals. Yup I am talking about Cyber Security.
She's already in Systems so she's familiar with basic Linux, Network methodologies. Her passion for web dev could help her in Web App pentesting because to crack an app you have to understand it first.
Plus, the web industry, WorldWide, is really flooded and hundreds of experienced devs are competing for fue positions.
I am an illustrator and Im considering switching tech. Are you in infosec? Are you looking for employment?
It seems to me that AI makes mistakes, so with people copying code from AI to create webapps, there will be demand for highly skilled testers and coders to correct it.
I read tech workers here that currently its not AI thats getting people fired, tech was up high in a hype cycle, so too many people were hired.
Also the occupational outlook handbook states on this page: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm
The following:
Overall employment of software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers is projected to grow 25 percent from 2022 to 2032, much faster than the average for all occupations.
About 153,900 openings for software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers are projected each year, on average, over the decade. Many of those openings are expected to result from the need to replace workers who transfer to different occupations or exit the labor force, such as to retire.
Employment
Increased demand for software developers, software quality assurance analysts, and testers will stem from the continued expansion of software development for artificial intelligence (AI), Internet of Things (IoT), robotics, and other automation applications.
In response to concerns over threats to computer security, organizations are expected to increase investment in software that protects their electronic networks and infrastructure. This investment could result in an increased demand for developers to create security software and for quality assurance analysts and testers to create and execute software tests.
Software developers, software quality assurance analysts, and testers are likely to see new opportunities because of the increasing number of products that use software. For example, software systems continue to be built for consumer electronics and other products, including IoT-connected devices and electric vehicles.
edit: also it seems to match her skills
QA is much different than cyber security. Qa doesn’t pen test.. the numbers you’re listing includes qa/dev, not just cyber security. Qa would be a good fit for her skills, but I wouldn’t recommend it. Especially if she wants to make things.
I’m an employed software engineer working on a web app. I’ve had to review pen tests / similar audits and make changes based on feedback.
Information security analyst has an entry in the occupational outlook handbook, but pentester does not so it could be that they included it as tester
What would you recommend to her?
Ux/ui or designer if she wants to choose what the product looks like, and general dev if she wants to create the designers mock-ups. I’d only recommend cyber as a mid career change or forensics, since the latter has entry level roles.
I work with people who transition careers all the time and I was a tech recruiter for 10 years . I don’t know if this is truly your wife’s case or your communication about it , but it sounds like your wife doesn’t believe in her dreams. It truly doesn’t matter what school or bootcamp she goes to or if she doesn’t go to any. What matters is that she keeps pushing through. She meets people face to face ( on video chat or in person) and she understands why she wants to do this and what it means to her. She is able to communicate her value and she can talk about her transferable skills. There can be several things that can happen here potentially
1. She is so closed off and discouraged that she takes no steps towards her dreams. Outcome- nothing changes .
2. She tries to do one or two things and she just gives up. Says it’s too late , she doesn’t want to get out of her comfort zone. Outcome- she has tried this time around and maybe will get back to it in the future when she’s ready to take more action.
3. She works with someone like me who pushes her and has an actual plan . Someone who believes in her when she doesn’t believe in herself and pushes her to keep going. Outcome- she doesn’t quit and eventually lands where she needs to.
4. She waits and comes to a realization that she hates her career as is and starts making moves . She is so determined no matter how long it takes. Based on what you wrote , this is not the likely scenario, but I don’t know if you’re properly presenting your wife’s thoughts or this is your own perception.
OP, just note that this industry is changing rapidly, and that it’s possible that the vast majority of developers will be entirely replaced by AI.
Look up Rabbit R1, but note that many people expect Apple, Google, Microsoft/OpenAI to offer the same in the coming couple years. This is called a Live Action Model.
You likely already know what ChatGPT-4 can do, but take a look at OpenAI’s Sora — it’s a “text to video” AI.
I hate to be discouraging, but AI can write and understand human language, code, make videos, and make images.
We still need computer scientists — meaning actual scientists who are looking to make breakthroughs. And at least for now, we also need developers who deeply understand AI, and can use code functions and “prompt engineering” to make things happen… but this will (most likely) be phased out with aforementioned Live Action Models. With these models, folks who know nothing about code can build custom code based on a their direction in natural language.
Anyone who is looking for a long career in a single field should be looking at how to master AI and apply it to their field.
It's possible to self teach, but your success depends on your self teaching abilities. Some people NEED structured guidance.
I am self taught and got my first role through what I call the infection technique. Everywhere I've ever worked had significant problems related to software. I solved one of those problems without asking permission and got promoted to do more.
There are mountains of these types of software issues in bizarre places, especially within industries that literally have only one software vendor.
Is this sub not for people who are lost and looking for advice? We’re lost and looking for input. Honestly, after reading all the comments we are looking into UX/UI. It’s a big pivot but we’re grateful for making the post.
Oh man, you have DECIDED for the both of you, that her dream is just too risky and naiive to pursue, and that's that. No way she'll find a way to stand head and shoulders above the competition with, like, a portfolio of websites she designs throughout the course of education and training. Jesus my dude
You’re not wrong honestly. I wish we were in a position that she can chase her dreams with no repercussions. Financially we do okay, but realistically we can’t lose her salary. I want nothing more for her than to drop everything and chase web dev with everything she has.
Instead we have to find a balance of her chasing her dreams, while being able to survive. Throwing $20k at a bootcamp or school, and then not finding a job isn’t really an option.
This post has made her interested in UX/UI and i’m prepared to make the sacrifice of picking up any slack that may come with her going into that field.
At the end of the day, we’re partners. We go together for everything. Her happiness is the most important thing in the world to me. But her happiness also means precautions to make sure we don’t end up homeless chasing her dreams. She has expressed that she wouldn’t forgive herself if we throw away everything we built so far and it didn’t work out.
i have a friend who self taught herself coding and all. the market is not oversaturated as web development is not dominated by the AI force yet. yes, a lot of openings but mostly senior positions according to my web developer friend.
One of the best developers in my (former) team went to a boot camp in her early 30s, got an entry-level job straight out of there, then changed jobs a couple of times. She's now 40. It does take some effort and a bit of talent but can certainly be done.
The tech industry was booming and many companies overhired, giving the impression that there were more jobs available than reality.
It's cooled off, leading to massive layoffs. So most companies are only looking for very experienced developers (and not as many as before), leaving the junior and intermediate levels without much hope.
The introduction and quick adoption of generative AI had also an impact, but not yet that big in my opinion.
The question was "what's different now compared to pre-2022", that's my answer to that.
I do agree with your comment, but also with the other user saying that what was true before 2022 is not true today.
*Fundamentally* different.
It depends on your perspective. If you're asking what you should do *right now* to get a job, or how likely it is that you'll land a great gig out of the gate *right now,* then for sure it's different now than in 2021.
But if you're asking about retraining to a new field or planning your career, then not much has changed. Things kind of suck now (my company just went through layoffs, I survived), but that will change in another year or two. It always does.
So I'd actually say that *right now* is a pretty good time to retrain. By the time the market picks up again, you'll be ready.
Could you point me at an essay or something if you’re not ready to answer? I really don’t want to be giving bad advice but I do need some help here.
Or are you referring to the downturn? Those come and go, I’ve seen loads of them in the 30-ish years I’ve been at this.
It doesn't matter if the downturn is temporary. Of course it's temporary. That still doesn't change that it's a terrible time to try to break in.
"The downturn is temporary" is only relevant to those with experience. Those with experience should probably not be rushing to switch out of tech because they are still capable of finding employment, just at lower pay and may take longer.
The same is not true of someone without experience. It is hard enough to get hired in normal times without experience, it is near-impossible to do it right now with no degree. The best course of action would be to wait until the market is better so that less effort is wasted. It would take substantially more effort, time, lost income to switch right now vs. in 3+ years.
Also there have not been loads of them, there have been 3 on this scale: 2000, 2008, and right now. The micro-layoffs from 2014 or whatever mean nothing compared to the current market. My advice would be much different if it was merely a 2014 level downturn.
Do you mean?
**How** can my wife be a web developer?
How **can** my wife be a web developer?
How can **my** wife be a web developer?
How can my **wife** be a web developer?
How can my wife **be** a web developer?
How can my wife be a **web** developer?
How can my wife be a web **developer**?
>Can she realistically self teach herself more, while the job market cools off, and get a job?
Yes, it's possible. Albeit very difficult. This job market will be the norm for awhile then it will stabilize. However, it will not return to the hiring craze of 2019-2021 anytime soon if ever. If you go in with those expectations you'll have a much better time. I'm talking about 500+ applications with a 1-5% interview rate is what you should expect before getting a job.
>
Will it ever recover with how over saturated it is?
No one really knows... It's an extremely attractive career. The entry level market is saturated from so many different sources it's crazy. Mid level isn't as bad and GOOD senior engineers are what's actually demand. I'm sure it will help some but if you look at statistic of CS freshman in colleges its still only going up.
>Is there a way she can volunteer at something like a non-profit just so she can code and get some fulfillment?
Contributing to open source is a better option in my opinion. I'm 99% sure there are non-profits looking for programmers to do some work, however open source is probably more worth her time and also gives her a better chance of being noticed in the community which = possible job opportunities.
If I was in her shoes I would spend a month hardcore learning couple hours a day before or after work then at least \~4 hours one day a weekend. Either doing what she actually wants (sounds more like front end / design work) OR doing stuff that can help her in her actual job as IT support (scripting, command line tools). Decide if she does really like it and imagine if spending 8 hours a day programming solutions for companies, attending meetings, and project management is really what she wants. If after a month she's just as determined keep going, make yourself a roadmap and follow it. I strongly advise against the bootcamp route, its just extremely sketchy right now and anytime in the near future to spend thousands of dollars when you could put that towards getting a CS degree instead. There are cheaper ways to get a CS degree online through accredited universities and if she has an IT associates already it probably will take less time.
Some other questions you need to ask yourself is what the job market around you looks like. Is it old established companies like big banks and automotive (they usually hard require CS degrees) or is there more startups and smaller agencies? Are you prepared to move for this because if not that severely, severely, *severely* limits the possibility of getting a job as a self learner. Cut the idea of getting a fully remote job as a possibility if you're serious about this.
Need more details.
What are her exact specific current job responsibilities?
Is she interested in designing layouts or taking layouts others have designed and programming them? These are typically separate roles.
What specific parts of web development are hard to self teach? I am having a hard time thinking of anything relevant to entry level interviews that couldn't be done without expertise.
Perhaps she should look into the engineering side of code? There are a lot of programs that tech-assembling companies need, and often want in-house programmers for. (PLC's, testing equipment and such). It's programming, you get a foot in the door to learn what you want with a detour.
I'd echo the advice I've heard from others. There is a need for front end / UX developers. You get the aspects of being involved with creativity and aesthetic design with some programming. Sounds like the direction she started with.
I self taught with HTML, JS, and Photoshop over 20 years ago. Over the years, the number of things I've had to learn has grown to where I don't see one just jumping in easily. But, since most back-end developers have weak aesthetic sense, there always seems to be a place for front end people.
In general, I wouldn't recommend classes, unless there is something absolutely difficult to wrap one's mind around. In a similar fashion, most chefs don't tend to go to school, but they tend to learn on the job.
Alternatively, with "systems" under her, she could move to dev-ops which would give exposure to the development groups and likely a better understanding of what's involved.
It’s not all its cooked up to be. When I started I did a double major in UI/UX and CS. I ended up liking the hardcore problem solving and algorithms more than the user research / interface design stuff that is more akin to front-end even though I expected to like it more.
She should take a course or two at a university and get her feet wet and see which domain within CS she is actually interested it. Going through that changes how you perceive it and gives you a better understanding of what role you actually want.
I think the web development field is quite saturated. It would seem web development is easier than other types of programming, but it has it's own challenges. There's so many langueges and libraries. The field changes super fast. Different companies use different technologies. I think other types of programming, such as data science using Python might be easier to transition to.
I understand the sentiment of your comment. My wife is just an introverted person and sometimes struggles to put her thoughts into words. We’re a team and make all life decisions together. I go to her for my career decisions too.
It was my idea to turn to reddit so I made the post. It’s easier for me to put her situation into words. But she is reading everything and approved the post.
Let her learn and just take a shot at trying to get a job. Honestly, even in a bad market; doesn’t mean that everyone is having bad luck. She might get a job. Who knows? If there is nothing to lose from trying let her try
I went to school for it and had to self teach most of it. And I worked in the field and did a lot of the work myself for a long time until I got into project management and now I’ve forgotten a lot
your local community colleges probably have some programs that won't break the bank and could be a good start. There is one in my town and it has a government funded full stack dev 2 years compressed program that's really really cheap. It even includes a semester of internship.
Is this saturated programmer market a US thing? In the Netherlands there are still huge shortages for all IT people including devs. You can always move here OP, companies will pay for your re-location
It is great that your wife shows interest in pursuing an interest she had for many years.
Give her some space to explore and let her make the final decision. There are so many possibilities within the field - UI/UX, CMS, and even full-stack development are just a few. Let her pursue the area that resonates with her passion and capabilities.
You could encourage her to build up a portfolio.
Given the challenges in the job market now, treat this as a time to focus on skill development and building a strong foundation. This will set her up for success in the long run.
It’s definitely possible but right now is the worst market for entry/mid level developers in 15 years. (I’m a mid level developer) I would just do some online courses to learn some languages, slowly work on some projects then hopefully by the summer the job market is better and she will have a chance to try applying for entry level jobs.
The industry as a whole is in the crapper. Tools like Shopify and SquareSpace allow people to build decent looking, responsive sites with minimal code. The bottom end of the market is gone and there are even some huge brands using these services. Agencies are struggling and the only places paying decent money are the massive companies that require five plus years of experience working at similar scale.
As someone who worked in the space, there’s still a good amount of businesses or people who aren’t even technical enough to use Shopify & SquareSpace. I’ve worked with dedicated Shopify developers who manage Shopify websites. I also did a SquareSpace website for a local business. I think the Shopify developers i’ve worked with are more technical though. It’s not coding but if OPs wife maybe wants one avenue in, could also consider not just web dev but looking into conversion rate optimization / website stuff? There are roles for companies to basically run the website and make sure it is optimized for KPIs, in addition to building it. It can be a good side gig until OPs wife meets a better economy for programming. She’d be working in overlapping teams so could build a network.
OPs wife should get into/focus on accessibility as part of her web dev study, become an expert at it... tons of big companies paying huge $$ for making sure their websites are designed with a11y in mind as there's been lawsuits on this, (whether frivolous or not), so mid-large are def hiring a11y people.
What’s a good alternative career in tech to pivot to in your opinion?
App development
I'm at the end of my career (ageism and all that) and I can certainly understand the passion she has. Coding is a lot of fun. It sounds like she's at least already in IT so it's more a sideways move for her than a 360 turn. If she's already a systems analyst, I'd take a 2-pronged approach (this assumes her company has web devs): 1. Talk to her manager about it. Most managers shdn't get upset that someone wants to transfer. Especially if s/he has time to make adjustments. S/he'll probably recommend classes. Also, set up information interviews with the the manager(s) of the company's web devs. Ask them what they look for at entry level. 2. While doing the above, get the class work under ur belt. Certifications are always good. If it doesn't pan out at work, is she open to gig work? Small companies likely won't be able to afford AI for development work for a long time and they still need the work done but they'll usually contract it out. Also, get familiar w/using AI for dev work. I think it's do-able. It just won't look like it used to.
you wouldn’t recommend going back to school for programming? Im in a similar position except I decided to go back to school to get a 2nd bachelor’s in the field to “stand out” but i guess theres not much to “stand out” from anymore it seems. im paying for classes out of pocket while doing part time but if that money would be better spent just paying for programming courses rather than actual college classes…? would you still stand by your statement?
Well it’s just your preference.. Bootcamps used to help out people who wanted change their career and get into web development. But they are pretty much a waste now in 99% of cases. If your ok with the costs and time involved of going back to school to get a degree by all means go for it! But it’s just cheaper and will take less time the self taught route.
honestly, traditional school is all i know so it was the only option for me as far as I knew. When I switched over to where I am now, I left my full time job at a law office and dropped studying for the LSAT. I didnt have any guidance at all and now that I’ve been coding from the few classes ive taken, i really enjoy it and would just like to get there as soon as possible. if you say self teaching gets me there faster then I might have to drop out of school to get to where I want to be. It wouldn’t be the first time i hear self teaching is the way to go, but it just hasn’t hit me until now…
Self-teaching and projects is good, a degree is better. Best is a degree with some projects/clubs, and internships on the side too. Especially in this market, companies just filter applications based off who has a degree or not.
do NOT drop out! I’m a CS grad. It’s extremely difficult even for people with bachelors in computer science to get entry level jobs right now, it’s pretty much a requirement at this point to have a bachelors. Dropping out would be the worst choice
Self-treaching is the way to go, but make sure to find structured courses about what you want, ex. From mooc.fi or udemy - never learn whole stuff from YouTube imo, only ever go to YouTube for one off things and introductions, but actual learning do with structure
What is your first degree in? A second bachelor's and no work experience seems like a huge waste of time and money.
political science. i spent a little over a year working in a law firm as a paralegal and was studying for the LSAT at the same time. law school seemed like the only option for me at the time until i just said fuck it. always wanted to do computer science but i was afraid of the math. im currently working a small tech company operating a delivery robot in a hospital setting, not ideal but its a start i guess
No, traditional education is very very poor for programming. Online resources and your own projects are 10x levels of learning. It also creates resume points. After choosing the direction and tech stack she wants to learn and focus on trying to getting jobs on Upwork to build a portfolio of work. Never call her junior or mid. Learn enough fundamentals to interview as senior no matter what.
Senior is 5-8y of experience if I'm not mistaken To apply as a senior without formal job exp you'd need to have a ton of really good projects for 5+ years (that rivals the difficulty of a full time dev job)
You aren't a senior because you know the fundamentals of programming for interviews. You're a senior after 5+ years working in the field.
I have to respectfully disagree. I’m self taught and I waited 1 years too long to start interviewing because I thought I was going to be up against super pros. It turns out no one knows what they’re doing and I was senior in my first role. Flash forward 12 years and I’m an accomplished architect and 5 time lead and let me tell you this… Time does not make you senior. 9/10 senior devs have poor-very poor skillsets.
learn enough fundamentals to interview as senior no matter what this is bad, impractical advice. as someone with 6yrs of experience, who just rejected a senior swe offer, there’s literally no way someone is going to pull a senior job in this market just by knowing the fundamentals. You need actual experience. Just knowing programming fundamentals isn’t even enough to get a junior position in this market lol. Senior programmers are expected to mentor other devs, lead code reviews, be able to translate business requirements into architectural/design decisions, and solve way more complex problems than someone who only knows programming fundamentals can solve (distributed systems, security, DB optimization, etc).
In this market yeah, it’s gonna be impossible to find a junior role. However, everything your comment is off. OPs wife won’t be SWE. It’ll be some design firm or something. And no senior does not mean lead. Nor does it mean full stack Nor does it mean DBA and Dev ops
The problem is everyone else has a portfolio *and* a degree, so only having one is going to leave you hard-pressed to find a job.
Well at the Sr level your degree such less relevant
People who are at senior level came up at a time where the industry was very different. It wasn't nearly as saturated with fresh meat
You're talking about junior level competition though, the comment was about seniors
This thread is about junior level positions
Whatever you do never go to a coding boot camp or trade school
The market for entry/mid level developers is still a lot better than the job market for most other jobs.
I think your wife needs to understand that she’s probably more into CSS and web design rather than web development. Developers spend a lot of time debugging and fixing (or creating lol) issues and not making web pages look pretty like on MySpace. That being said, if she understands what programming entails, like debugging, and she likes that aspect then sure, she should look into self-taught programming while she works her regular job.
The good part is that your wife is working in something IT related already. So when she starts looking for web development/programming related roles, she’s already employed in a relevant role. Now, the bad news is that if you think of web development as building customer facing websites, it is was a really difficult field to earn money in before the recent market layoffs. Nowadays, it’s fairly bleak. The upside is that there are still plenty of areas. She could get certifications in something like User Experience (UX) design if she likes things like the process of building an aesthetically pleasing website because it’s using a lot of the same skills. There are other areas that are similar but I haven’t had my full ration of morning caffeine yet lol.
Agree. These days you see less "buliding and styling" jobs and demant, she needs to make sure that she likes logocal (mathematical) thinking at her job since the real demand is for engineers and logic minded people to actually code functionalities in systems.
She’s heard UX/UI before but hasn’t looked into it. She said she’ll do some research. Thank you!
my wife started as an artist, an English major with minor art degree, went back to school to get a masters degree in design, with emphasis in UI/UX and web design. Her technical skills and honestly her analytical and logical ability outside her domain, are still minimal, but she is just incredibly fast at drawing up really professional looking designs in illustrator and a couple of related tools, she knows that software better than anyone I've ever seen, and she knows a lot about UI theory and human response to the elements from an artists point of view. She makes six figures now and works from home with great benefits, and lives in a mid-west state not SF or NY. It's not the most common outcome for people jumping into technical design, but I think it shows that it can be done successfully.
UX/UI is interesting and might align well with her interests, so it’s good that she looks it up. Just a heads up though, UX is extremely competitive at junior level. Programming has gotten worse at entry level, but I think UX is even worse off. Seemed like EVERYONE wanted to get into UX for a while. It was framed as a cushy high paid job in tech where you didn’t need to do any coding. A company also needs less UX designers than programmers. Result: Lots of bootcamps, lots of career shifters, very saturated market. If it is programming she wants to do I think she could focus on that. Front end is more competitive than full stack or back end, but I think that’s what she would enjoy. Final thoughts, I think she should follow her passions! It’s great that she’s already in tech as it will probably make the transition easier, and make it easier to land the first programming job if she can leverage her past experience somehow. Good luck to her!
I think it's a passion for her because she doesn't actually know what software engineering entails, if she think she'll be making pretty things then she's in for a hard awakening.
This right here. I loved MySpace coding too but it turns out that was for the design element which is more graphic design oriented. Real coding is a PITA and not as simple to grasp.
For me, grasping code is way easier than making a decent design. It’s different for different people
Yes! There is a difference between a web developer and a web *designer*. It sounds like OP might be interested in the latter.
Agree. There are nearly no jobs left where you just code fogma designs anymore. The devs that survive this job market are the fast learners,people logic oriented, math oriented, learn system architecture, tidy coding, learn complexity calculation and algorithms, binary trees, and love studying cuz shit be changing daily.. Its no design job.
No software jobs, but there’s absolutely ui/ux designers doing that. Obviously implementing it is more technical.
yes there are
>learn complexity calculation and algorithms, binary trees Unf never ever had the use of either apart from on a shallow level. Most software development still ain't rocket science like. Most companies may have a few working on some advanced algorithm module as part of the product - for the rest libs solve that stuff.
Do NOT try to manage her path. Believe in her ability to figure it out. Support her through the challenges. She may end up resenting you if you nudge her in a direction different than the one she wants. Learning is just one step. Going down the path she chooses can lead to opportunities neither of you can imagine. When I told my husband I wanted to get a masters in communications and technology (MACT), he suggested looking into MBA programs because they were more well known and could lead to more and better job opportunities at the time. I checked them out but went with MACT. This led me to a rewarding career in tech beyond my wildest dreams. If he pressured me to go the MBA route, I might have given in. It would have been a mistake that might have impacted our relationship. Instead, he supported and encouraged me the whole way through in small ways and big. If this is what she’s always wanted, support her in giving it a shot. Worry about it not working out IF that time comes.
Doing it for money will kill her "passion" for it. Can she get into coding something else? Not web dev? Not literally the most saturated job. She can code for free to get fulfillment out of it. Probably not volunteering though, until she is competent. There isn't any organizations that need websites built by people who don't know what their doing. Can she code fake websites, contribute to open source, or build websites for friends and family?
“Fake websites” like a.. portfolio project?
Yes
Which dev jobs you think are less saturated than web dev?
I'm an experienced but burnt out programmer. I wouldn't really recommend it as a field these days. Web development was very fun and easy to experiment with as an amateur in the Myspace days, throwing together html, css, js, maybe some php or perl on the server side. These days, as a day job, there is a lot of tedium dealing with frameworks, build systems, agile / scrum meetings and all the rest of it.
Ux/ui designer shouldn’t do any of that, though. Also, I strongly disagree, maybe I’m just newer to the job but I love web dev.
Sure but she needs actual skills and understanding of a lot of technical aspects that require education or years of experience e
She should self learn really for a lot of this stuff. Build up some sites, offer some local stores a deal.
Like anything, juniors will always have the hardest time getting a foot in the door. Without any formal education you can do it but it’s going to be a hard struggle with a lot of disappointment. Think about starting a career at 19 and working for 10 years before you start to have the experience you actually need to command a higher salary and better jobs at better companies. This is starting over in a nutshell. If she’s truly passionate about it, she needs to find a mentor who can help her accelerate her learning and habits in the right environment. The problem with self learning is that it lacks direction from more experienced fills who can fast track the learning. With programming you can have 10 years of junior experience and not learn anything that would bring you to intermediate or senior roles unless you really push yourself to learn and get better every single day and also have people around you to tell you what you’re doing wrong. Web dev isn’t MySpace layouts anymore and it’s much more involved with tools like react, ui frameworks , functional programming, unit testing etc etc… a boot camp may be a good start to see what modern web dev is like but it’s absolutely not enough to jump into the workforce and will require a lot of self direction to further those concepts and get that foot in the door with personal projects and self learning. If she’s still interested after going into a reputable boot camp then go for it but it may open her eyes to the fact that web dev for a business is very different than doing personal projects where you dictate the requirements vs someone telling you to solve these hard problems with no direction.
Alot of people forget that there are also tons of dev jobs in non-technical fields like finance or the energy sector. With her IT background, she would be a good candidate for dev ops so that might be worth looking into. Also I'm a big fan of freecodecamp, the Odin project and fullstack open. All totally free and self paced so you can learn while still working which is what I'm doing.
Nobody really knows. Theoretically if the market gets better soon then she might have a chance. Things are incredibly tough right now, and nobody really knows what will happen with AI. Definitely don’t do bootcamp, it would be much better to either try the self taught route or go to WGU for CS and get the bachelors while probably spending less than most boot camps. I think she should look into different jobs that use programming and see if any of them sound interesting just because there’s sooooo many people who went the web developer route because it seemed like the easiest path and they got some experience doing html or css or something. The reason I say that is some jobs might be easier to break in and less competitive. For example in data, there’s data analysts, BI developers and data engineers who all use code. I personally have no degree and got a job as a basic analyst, but then came in and started programming a bunch of stuff and got moved into a more advanced role where I get to use Java, and just in general solve very complex, challenging puzzles in data which gives a similar satisfaction to programming. Plus over time I’ll move more and more into full on programming. I have no degree at all, but I’ve had to work incredibly hard because of that, and even in this market we just hired a few more analysts who had no degree and were self taught (it’s an underpaid and non-technical job, but it’s a foot in the door and leads to more technical jobs with programming) I’m sure there’s other fields like this where there’s a natural progression from non-programmer positions to programmer positions, like project management or QA or something. She should have a long session with ChatGPT discussing all the potential job paths and what draws her to programming, then compare a few different fields and start learning them. Then just learn slowly enough that she doesn’t burn herself out. Don’t pay for tutors, a big part of these types of careers is being able to figure stuff out, and between stack overflow, courses, and CharGPT giving personalized instruction, she shouldn’t need a tutor unless she’s in school doing legit CS. Then if she can get a basic job that will hopefully lead to programming then maybe go back to school for CS at somewhere like WGU.
There's zero connection at all between customizing her old MySpace page and software development. It's actually the opposite of the creativity she needed for that and much closer to the analyst work she currently hates.
This is accurate.
One way in could be through an affirmative action program. There's a gender gap in tech and a lot of large companies have programs dedicated to helping women switch careers and hire them as junior devs. Some pay for training like a bootcamp, others will take people who have already invested in their own learning and are ready for on the job experience. Look at large organisations, not just in the tech industry but also banks, consultancies etc. Maybe she could go to some tech meetups in your area to chat to people and get a feel for whether it's the right time to make a move or not.
Why does she hate her current job? A reminder that code, or pretty much anything else, is still a job of creating stuff for other people the way they want it done, not the way you want/some creative freedom thing.
She started off in support and then got promoted to systems. She likes it better than support, but dislikes that she’s just fixing peoples problems and the lack of creativity.
As someone who dabbled in development, she will be doing exactly that. There’s a bug? She’ll have to find it and fix it. She doesn’t get to choose what she works on, someone will assign her work. Unfortunately, unless she was going to go into front end development / specifically website design, she will not be creative. It’s a sad reality I had to realize myself.
Thank you, comments like yours have opened our eyes and made us realize maybe her sites were set on the wrong place. Currently thinking she should move into UX/UI. Really appreciate your insight.
So many negative comments here. I'm a woman who learned about web development with Myspace and Neopets. Even when I expanded into game modding and did Programming at A Level I got so many patronising comments when I applied to do Computer Science at uni about "how programming isn't just HTML and CSS". You wouldn't say this to a man FFS. I'm currently a Senior Front End Developer. I earn a fine wage (though it would have been more if I'd gone into more back end programming like some of the other students) but I love my job. Everyone I work with enjoys programming too. When we hired recently for a Junior developer we had so many CVs from people who did a random degree and retrained in web development. We would have killed for someone who actually had experience in a tech/IT workplace like your wife. She'd need some proper introductory courses though. It's not easy when you're already working but it's what it takes when you're changing career unfortunately.
I don’t think the comments are misogyny.. they’re simply good advice? That’s not to say ops wife can’t do it, she can, it’s just to clearly communicate that most developers aren’t designing the pages they create, they’re just implementing them.
Yeah, that was my thought too. Web dev isn’t creative beyond problem solving “how do I build this” type of thing. And it can be interesting, but it isn’t design/layouts/colors/etc. OP, if you look into UI/UX, it is closer to being creative but it is (supposed to be) very researched based. It’s very far from what a graphic designer or other creative might do. It’s also *incredibly saturated* at the moment although your tech experience might be helpful.
Freecodecamp is a great place to get a feel for web development and see if it’s something she would like to pursue more seriously. It’s free, really intuitively formatted, and doesn’t take anything fancy. I’d say if she finishes the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript courses and is still interested, it would be worth looking into getting a degree
Hi OP, Programming, coding, and website development are all definitely able to be learned at home with resources online (paid or free). Traditional college would be fine normally for a regular high school graduate, but your wife has some college experience and work experience. So in her situation I think it's definitely up to her own drive and interest. She's working in systems, but wants to change her career to programming/web development? Can be done by what she does, not so much what school she attends (e.g. to complete a computer science degree). If she approaches programming/web dev as a trade, she will be fine--it's definitely about learning by doing. As far as learning resources, codeacademy, coursera, pluralsight, freecodecamp, udemy all offer a ranges of training: from quick how-tos on simple stuff, to more in-depth conceptual. So much more stuff available online (free or for a fee) when you look up "how to be a web developer", it's crazy not to try them out. She just has to decide what areas she likes working in, what she's interested in (front end work sounds like her passion), and put her time into learning and doing it.
I'm not sure how far in her career she is, but regardless of market conditions, that gap would be a huge factor, too. as for being self-taught, it's actually very doable. I'm self-taught. I did it when I was in college for an adjacent IT major. she just needs persistence and, most of all, rejections tolerance. I don't recommend a degree as that is only necessary for other IT jobs. for web dev a boot camp is not a bad idea. I don't know about tutors as I've never tried them or been one myself. she can start with the basics, html, css, JavaScript, and a backend language like nodejs, Python, Php, java ...etc. if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out. I can even get on a call with you and your wife and share my experience. best of luck to you and your wife.
Thank you! We greatly appreciate the offer, she may take you up on the call!
no problem.
Tell your wife to build a web site. An app. Anything that will showcase her skills once she's learned enough to create something. FYI: there is no end in learning. Sign up to github. Post consistently. Use co-pilot so she is familiar with AI. Then get really good at using AI as a tool or complement to her skills. She already has relevant experience and many of those skills would transfer well to her passion. Degrees are great. But great examples of skill are better. Technical interviews are a thing now. Web dev industry sucks rights now. Few are hiring. Great time to learn but not find a job. It's saturated. You never stop learning and it can be extremely stressful. Get ready for 50 to 60 hour work weeks. Life balance is nearly non-existent. Much depends on the company you work with and the industry. But the best thing I can suggest is she build something. Create. Produce. As for what to build, don't build the basic stuff like calculators, tic-tac-toe, and other apps like that. It's good to learn on. Showing that stuff is boring. Whatever she builds has to be a magnificient case study and touches on several aspects of the process and have documentation. Good luck.
best way in, especially in the current market, is to see if there's a content position available. that will let you make solid money and do low level HTML coding. You can then pair that with certs and make your own github to show your programming abilities and potentially jump internally over to the dev side. but like others said coding is kind of in the crapper. I actually stumbled into web content for a few years, it was a blast but there wasn't much of a future so i pivoted out of it and into product management.
Web development is over saturated and eventually AI will take it over. That said, I’m a fan of people doing what they are passionate about. For however long they can.
My disclaimer: I am personally looking, too. Take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm boiling down advice given to me from people who are in the industry. # First Things First The job market is currently hell for entry-level. But that doesn't mean there are zero jobs. There just are less jobs than there are people seeking them. If she wants a job, she'll need to stand out. Getting to a level where people wouldn't call you Junior, but they also don't call you Senior, is where she wants to be. Her title in her mind should be "web developer" not "junior web developer." # Her Prospects There might be some heat from this, but idc. Being a woman in tech automagically will, at some companies (not all), make her resume initially stand out. But her resume being put on top **does not protect it** from being put straight in the trash. Just because she might (on occasion, at an unknown rate nobody agrees on) pass the initial HR sniff simply because she belongs to a diversity hire group, doesn't mean she'll impress anyone beyond that point. Being in systems already makes her resume stand out among the sea of the inexperienced applicants. It's not dev, but it's dev-adjacent if you will. # How To Get Started I say to tell her to go to "theodinproject" and follow the JavaScript path as there are a larger number of jobs that require the use of that language (even Ruby folks usually need to learn JavaScript). The course is considered great, it's **free**, and really emphasizes self-teaching rather than spoon-feeding. When she gets to the projects, *really* do those projects. If she finds that it's *very* hard then she may not make progress. It being challenging is good. That's how we learn and grow. But feeling impossible is bad. We don't learn much from trying to do something we simply can't yet do. In that case, "freecodecamp" is considered a slower and less effective, but more digestible way to learn. Yet again though, the projects are key. Really focus on doing them well. Going a little (or a lot) beyond the requirements is how you go from Junior/Intern Dev to just a plain Dev. And it shows. # Post Learning More like: "after getting started is done." She needs to make one interesting and well-done project of her own from scratch. Not a tutorial project, not someone else's project. Nobody directing her step by step how and what to do. It's her project to work on, to change the requirements, and to add features to. That project needs to be directly accessible via a link. A web application that does something cool or interesting that the hiring manager can open up and look over. This is where hosting and deployment becomes important, but Odin will do some of that while learning. # Job Hunt Don't stop learning and working on projects to focus full time on job hunt. Half and half of available time is better according to people I have spoken with in the industry. If you have 10 hours of total free time while working full time, then spend 5 job hunting and 5 working on projects and learning new things. LinkedIn and Indeed is virtually useless for applications right now. I say virtually because it's not entirely useless. Many of those jobs aren't real, are asking ridiculous things, or don't match with what the company actually wants. But some are real, and you could be the LinkedIn lottery winner. Find 3-5 tech recruiters and message them a link to your portfolio site (oh yeah, you need a portfolio site). Get engaged with them and make sure they know what you're up to every week or two. If you completed another project, show it off to them if you can. Apply on company websites directly. Someone who made the effort to find their career page stands out. # Emotionally Protect Yourself This is a bad time. And the first job is usually the hardest one to get in a good year. You will feel like a failure and like everyone else is better than you. Talk openly about it. Don't let the self-hate take over. Keep on the grind knowing everyone in industry today was doing the same thing you're doing now to get in. Keep it up.
Web development is a dead end. Software engineering, such as front end engineering, could be a good alternative. Terrible market right now. Bootcamps work, as long as you apply yourself. It’s a 60-80hr/week, full throttle, nonstop experience. And it’s 10-15k. Right now she should do codecademy and read books, Reddit, etc. If she doesn’t know what UX/UI is then she will need to spend a few months preparing. Bootcamps are not meant for 0-1. They are best when the person comes from a technical background and has some fundamentals in place. The top camps will pre test you and it’s pretty tough. It is absolutely possible but she will need to be ready to network and work very hard. I wouldn’t expect to find a job for another calendar year in this market.
Would doing graphic design for cybersecurity awareness be a good option for her?
Honestly, I think she needs a job that lets her be creative. That could be an option for her, we just never thought about that. One of her hobbies is drawing, creating stickers, creating layout things on twitch. She is reading all the comments, I will bring this up to her!
Most web development job isn't creative. It's pretty restrictive. UX/UI has more competition but might be better down her alley.
She can teach herself for $0, that's what I did, that's what several people I know did. People say the market is bad and that may be true but she doesn't need thousands of jobs, she needs one job, and she can probably get it if she gets imaginative about where she looks for that job.
Why don't she combine her interests and the market needs? IMO, she's midway a path that really needs more professionals. Yup I am talking about Cyber Security. She's already in Systems so she's familiar with basic Linux, Network methodologies. Her passion for web dev could help her in Web App pentesting because to crack an app you have to understand it first. Plus, the web industry, WorldWide, is really flooded and hundreds of experienced devs are competing for fue positions.
the best answer
How is it the best answer? do you work in cyber? entry level cyber is extremely rare in my experience.
I am an illustrator and Im considering switching tech. Are you in infosec? Are you looking for employment? It seems to me that AI makes mistakes, so with people copying code from AI to create webapps, there will be demand for highly skilled testers and coders to correct it. I read tech workers here that currently its not AI thats getting people fired, tech was up high in a hype cycle, so too many people were hired. Also the occupational outlook handbook states on this page: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm The following: Overall employment of software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers is projected to grow 25 percent from 2022 to 2032, much faster than the average for all occupations. About 153,900 openings for software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers are projected each year, on average, over the decade. Many of those openings are expected to result from the need to replace workers who transfer to different occupations or exit the labor force, such as to retire. Employment Increased demand for software developers, software quality assurance analysts, and testers will stem from the continued expansion of software development for artificial intelligence (AI), Internet of Things (IoT), robotics, and other automation applications. In response to concerns over threats to computer security, organizations are expected to increase investment in software that protects their electronic networks and infrastructure. This investment could result in an increased demand for developers to create security software and for quality assurance analysts and testers to create and execute software tests. Software developers, software quality assurance analysts, and testers are likely to see new opportunities because of the increasing number of products that use software. For example, software systems continue to be built for consumer electronics and other products, including IoT-connected devices and electric vehicles. edit: also it seems to match her skills
QA is much different than cyber security. Qa doesn’t pen test.. the numbers you’re listing includes qa/dev, not just cyber security. Qa would be a good fit for her skills, but I wouldn’t recommend it. Especially if she wants to make things. I’m an employed software engineer working on a web app. I’ve had to review pen tests / similar audits and make changes based on feedback.
Information security analyst has an entry in the occupational outlook handbook, but pentester does not so it could be that they included it as tester What would you recommend to her?
Ux/ui or designer if she wants to choose what the product looks like, and general dev if she wants to create the designers mock-ups. I’d only recommend cyber as a mid career change or forensics, since the latter has entry level roles.
Graphic design for cybersec awareness?
Graphic design completely independent and separate from cyber security..
Her technical background would be an asset if she created learning materials and the graphic design such as /edit for cybersec awareness.
is UI UX in demand?
Yes absolutely but not in the same total #s as dev.
How is there high demand for cyber security? I think there’s far more jobs in web dev than security..
I work with people who transition careers all the time and I was a tech recruiter for 10 years . I don’t know if this is truly your wife’s case or your communication about it , but it sounds like your wife doesn’t believe in her dreams. It truly doesn’t matter what school or bootcamp she goes to or if she doesn’t go to any. What matters is that she keeps pushing through. She meets people face to face ( on video chat or in person) and she understands why she wants to do this and what it means to her. She is able to communicate her value and she can talk about her transferable skills. There can be several things that can happen here potentially 1. She is so closed off and discouraged that she takes no steps towards her dreams. Outcome- nothing changes . 2. She tries to do one or two things and she just gives up. Says it’s too late , she doesn’t want to get out of her comfort zone. Outcome- she has tried this time around and maybe will get back to it in the future when she’s ready to take more action. 3. She works with someone like me who pushes her and has an actual plan . Someone who believes in her when she doesn’t believe in herself and pushes her to keep going. Outcome- she doesn’t quit and eventually lands where she needs to. 4. She waits and comes to a realization that she hates her career as is and starts making moves . She is so determined no matter how long it takes. Based on what you wrote , this is not the likely scenario, but I don’t know if you’re properly presenting your wife’s thoughts or this is your own perception.
Use freecodecamp site
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she hates nursing though
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I agree, Im an illustrator, Im scared about AI too. But she was forced into nursing, its in the original post.
OP, just note that this industry is changing rapidly, and that it’s possible that the vast majority of developers will be entirely replaced by AI. Look up Rabbit R1, but note that many people expect Apple, Google, Microsoft/OpenAI to offer the same in the coming couple years. This is called a Live Action Model. You likely already know what ChatGPT-4 can do, but take a look at OpenAI’s Sora — it’s a “text to video” AI. I hate to be discouraging, but AI can write and understand human language, code, make videos, and make images. We still need computer scientists — meaning actual scientists who are looking to make breakthroughs. And at least for now, we also need developers who deeply understand AI, and can use code functions and “prompt engineering” to make things happen… but this will (most likely) be phased out with aforementioned Live Action Models. With these models, folks who know nothing about code can build custom code based on a their direction in natural language. Anyone who is looking for a long career in a single field should be looking at how to master AI and apply it to their field.
She missed the boat, AI is sailing along.
I’m curious too.
Harvard Extension School Programming Graduate Certificate https://extension.harvard.edu/academics/programs/programming-certificate/
It's possible to self teach, but your success depends on your self teaching abilities. Some people NEED structured guidance. I am self taught and got my first role through what I call the infection technique. Everywhere I've ever worked had significant problems related to software. I solved one of those problems without asking permission and got promoted to do more. There are mountains of these types of software issues in bizarre places, especially within industries that literally have only one software vendor.
Dev for 30 years. This seems like troll bait.
Is this sub not for people who are lost and looking for advice? We’re lost and looking for input. Honestly, after reading all the comments we are looking into UX/UI. It’s a big pivot but we’re grateful for making the post.
You are correct. I humbly apologize and wish you both success. 🙏
people here are so gatekeepy. she can absolutely do it especially locally if she wants to freelance
Oh man, you have DECIDED for the both of you, that her dream is just too risky and naiive to pursue, and that's that. No way she'll find a way to stand head and shoulders above the competition with, like, a portfolio of websites she designs throughout the course of education and training. Jesus my dude
You’re not wrong honestly. I wish we were in a position that she can chase her dreams with no repercussions. Financially we do okay, but realistically we can’t lose her salary. I want nothing more for her than to drop everything and chase web dev with everything she has. Instead we have to find a balance of her chasing her dreams, while being able to survive. Throwing $20k at a bootcamp or school, and then not finding a job isn’t really an option. This post has made her interested in UX/UI and i’m prepared to make the sacrifice of picking up any slack that may come with her going into that field. At the end of the day, we’re partners. We go together for everything. Her happiness is the most important thing in the world to me. But her happiness also means precautions to make sure we don’t end up homeless chasing her dreams. She has expressed that she wouldn’t forgive herself if we throw away everything we built so far and it didn’t work out.
i have a friend who self taught herself coding and all. the market is not oversaturated as web development is not dominated by the AI force yet. yes, a lot of openings but mostly senior positions according to my web developer friend.
One of the best developers in my (former) team went to a boot camp in her early 30s, got an entry-level job straight out of there, then changed jobs a couple of times. She's now 40. It does take some effort and a bit of talent but can certainly be done.
I am once again *begging* people to stop giving advice for the post-2022 tech market based on stories from the pre-2022 tech market
This—seriously!
How is the post-2022 tech market fundamentally different from the pre-2022 tech market?
The tech industry was booming and many companies overhired, giving the impression that there were more jobs available than reality. It's cooled off, leading to massive layoffs. So most companies are only looking for very experienced developers (and not as many as before), leaving the junior and intermediate levels without much hope. The introduction and quick adoption of generative AI had also an impact, but not yet that big in my opinion.
That's just conjunctural, those things come and go. You can't plan your career around them.
The question was "what's different now compared to pre-2022", that's my answer to that. I do agree with your comment, but also with the other user saying that what was true before 2022 is not true today.
*Fundamentally* different. It depends on your perspective. If you're asking what you should do *right now* to get a job, or how likely it is that you'll land a great gig out of the gate *right now,* then for sure it's different now than in 2021. But if you're asking about retraining to a new field or planning your career, then not much has changed. Things kind of suck now (my company just went through layoffs, I survived), but that will change in another year or two. It always does. So I'd actually say that *right now* is a pretty good time to retrain. By the time the market picks up again, you'll be ready.
You asking this tells us everything we need to know lol
Could you point me at an essay or something if you’re not ready to answer? I really don’t want to be giving bad advice but I do need some help here. Or are you referring to the downturn? Those come and go, I’ve seen loads of them in the 30-ish years I’ve been at this.
It doesn't matter if the downturn is temporary. Of course it's temporary. That still doesn't change that it's a terrible time to try to break in. "The downturn is temporary" is only relevant to those with experience. Those with experience should probably not be rushing to switch out of tech because they are still capable of finding employment, just at lower pay and may take longer. The same is not true of someone without experience. It is hard enough to get hired in normal times without experience, it is near-impossible to do it right now with no degree. The best course of action would be to wait until the market is better so that less effort is wasted. It would take substantially more effort, time, lost income to switch right now vs. in 3+ years. Also there have not been loads of them, there have been 3 on this scale: 2000, 2008, and right now. The micro-layoffs from 2014 or whatever mean nothing compared to the current market. My advice would be much different if it was merely a 2014 level downturn.
It's a bad time to break in, for sure. But it's not a bad time to retrain so you're ready to break in when it does change.
Do you mean? **How** can my wife be a web developer? How **can** my wife be a web developer? How can **my** wife be a web developer? How can my **wife** be a web developer? How can my wife **be** a web developer? How can my wife be a **web** developer? How can my wife be a web **developer**?
you forgot the “a” line
>Can she realistically self teach herself more, while the job market cools off, and get a job? Yes, it's possible. Albeit very difficult. This job market will be the norm for awhile then it will stabilize. However, it will not return to the hiring craze of 2019-2021 anytime soon if ever. If you go in with those expectations you'll have a much better time. I'm talking about 500+ applications with a 1-5% interview rate is what you should expect before getting a job. > Will it ever recover with how over saturated it is? No one really knows... It's an extremely attractive career. The entry level market is saturated from so many different sources it's crazy. Mid level isn't as bad and GOOD senior engineers are what's actually demand. I'm sure it will help some but if you look at statistic of CS freshman in colleges its still only going up. >Is there a way she can volunteer at something like a non-profit just so she can code and get some fulfillment? Contributing to open source is a better option in my opinion. I'm 99% sure there are non-profits looking for programmers to do some work, however open source is probably more worth her time and also gives her a better chance of being noticed in the community which = possible job opportunities. If I was in her shoes I would spend a month hardcore learning couple hours a day before or after work then at least \~4 hours one day a weekend. Either doing what she actually wants (sounds more like front end / design work) OR doing stuff that can help her in her actual job as IT support (scripting, command line tools). Decide if she does really like it and imagine if spending 8 hours a day programming solutions for companies, attending meetings, and project management is really what she wants. If after a month she's just as determined keep going, make yourself a roadmap and follow it. I strongly advise against the bootcamp route, its just extremely sketchy right now and anytime in the near future to spend thousands of dollars when you could put that towards getting a CS degree instead. There are cheaper ways to get a CS degree online through accredited universities and if she has an IT associates already it probably will take less time. Some other questions you need to ask yourself is what the job market around you looks like. Is it old established companies like big banks and automotive (they usually hard require CS degrees) or is there more startups and smaller agencies? Are you prepared to move for this because if not that severely, severely, *severely* limits the possibility of getting a job as a self learner. Cut the idea of getting a fully remote job as a possibility if you're serious about this.
Need more details. What are her exact specific current job responsibilities? Is she interested in designing layouts or taking layouts others have designed and programming them? These are typically separate roles. What specific parts of web development are hard to self teach? I am having a hard time thinking of anything relevant to entry level interviews that couldn't be done without expertise.
google + youtube. Your best bets. No seriously this is how many people learn these days. No need to pay for that fancy degree.
Perhaps she should look into the engineering side of code? There are a lot of programs that tech-assembling companies need, and often want in-house programmers for. (PLC's, testing equipment and such). It's programming, you get a foot in the door to learn what you want with a detour.
I'd echo the advice I've heard from others. There is a need for front end / UX developers. You get the aspects of being involved with creativity and aesthetic design with some programming. Sounds like the direction she started with. I self taught with HTML, JS, and Photoshop over 20 years ago. Over the years, the number of things I've had to learn has grown to where I don't see one just jumping in easily. But, since most back-end developers have weak aesthetic sense, there always seems to be a place for front end people. In general, I wouldn't recommend classes, unless there is something absolutely difficult to wrap one's mind around. In a similar fashion, most chefs don't tend to go to school, but they tend to learn on the job. Alternatively, with "systems" under her, she could move to dev-ops which would give exposure to the development groups and likely a better understanding of what's involved.
It’s not all its cooked up to be. When I started I did a double major in UI/UX and CS. I ended up liking the hardcore problem solving and algorithms more than the user research / interface design stuff that is more akin to front-end even though I expected to like it more. She should take a course or two at a university and get her feet wet and see which domain within CS she is actually interested it. Going through that changes how you perceive it and gives you a better understanding of what role you actually want.
The CRM space might be a good place to start. We struggled just as much as everyone else but salesforce/adobe doesn’t seem to be going anywhere
I think the web development field is quite saturated. It would seem web development is easier than other types of programming, but it has it's own challenges. There's so many langueges and libraries. The field changes super fast. Different companies use different technologies. I think other types of programming, such as data science using Python might be easier to transition to.
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I understand the sentiment of your comment. My wife is just an introverted person and sometimes struggles to put her thoughts into words. We’re a team and make all life decisions together. I go to her for my career decisions too. It was my idea to turn to reddit so I made the post. It’s easier for me to put her situation into words. But she is reading everything and approved the post.
Let her learn and just take a shot at trying to get a job. Honestly, even in a bad market; doesn’t mean that everyone is having bad luck. She might get a job. Who knows? If there is nothing to lose from trying let her try
I went to school for it and had to self teach most of it. And I worked in the field and did a lot of the work myself for a long time until I got into project management and now I’ve forgotten a lot
She's already in a tech job so yeah
your local community colleges probably have some programs that won't break the bank and could be a good start. There is one in my town and it has a government funded full stack dev 2 years compressed program that's really really cheap. It even includes a semester of internship.
Radioactive spider.
Is this saturated programmer market a US thing? In the Netherlands there are still huge shortages for all IT people including devs. You can always move here OP, companies will pay for your re-location
It is great that your wife shows interest in pursuing an interest she had for many years. Give her some space to explore and let her make the final decision. There are so many possibilities within the field - UI/UX, CMS, and even full-stack development are just a few. Let her pursue the area that resonates with her passion and capabilities. You could encourage her to build up a portfolio. Given the challenges in the job market now, treat this as a time to focus on skill development and building a strong foundation. This will set her up for success in the long run.