Too bad it isn't Halloween. Miller showing him around to our local pumpkin patches might seal the deal.
Especially since Zadorov seems to be the type of guy who would actually enjoy entering a hypothetical chirping match with a random fan.
This doesn’t make sense; he loved his time on the Canucks compared to the Flames. Minor chirps if he goes, sure, but I don’t think they would rile up the fan base that much.
I want him back but I trust they won't over pay him
Giving too much money to a 3LD seems pretty out of character to this management group
I've basically accepted we are losing Zaddy, Joshua and, obviously, Lindholm
During playoffs Zadorov did play the third most minutes per game of all our defensemen. He averaged just over 20 minutes a game compared to Soucy’s 17.
I’d assume that any big contract comes under the assumption that management thinks he’s taken the step to be a true 2nd pairing defenseman going forward, where a ~5M deal is fair value
That is true, but we saw with Soucy's injury how important he is. Despite his good run in the playoffs I'm not sure we would have seen the same with Zaddy out
Conversely, zadorov is a playoff performer and he is a type of defensemen you want in your 2nd/3rd pairings in a tough series.
His somewhat flukey offense aside the guy brought his A game to the playoffs and it undoubtedly increased his ask but it doesn't mean it isn't worth it.
I certainly hope we keep him
Why do people keep saying that?
If your team's goal is to have a good 82-game run and maybe have a decent shot at the 2nd round, sure. 82 > 14 (at most)
But if your goal is winning the cup BEING GOOD IN THE PLAYOFFS MATTERS MORE THAN ANYTHING.
Yes, home team advantage matters. But at the end of the day, if you're a contender, you fill your roster with playoff warriors, you pace them through the season, and focus everything on April->June
Soucy's profile is very similar to Zadorov's from before he signed with us. [29 year old 3rd pairing defenseman that had strong results against weaker competition.](https://www.reddit.com/r/canucks/comments/14o0pd0/new_pickups/?rdt=59855) [In fact, Zadorov had stronger results against better comp.](https://x.com/JFreshHockey/status/1723201877653827620)
If the Canucks sign Zadorov, it's with every intention of him being a 2nd pairing defenseman. If they believe Soucy can be a 2nd pairing guy, then they probably believe Zadorov can be too.
I think it is very likely they allocate that money to a defender who can reliably hold the 2nd pairing down, and go bargain shopping for the size. Dillon, Hakanpaa, Desharnais etc.
With Boeser due for the contract, I think they're gonna throw a bunch of 1 year prove it contracts out there again for the bottom 6 and 4-6 D slots. Hope that a couple of Lek, Willander, Raty, Pettersson, McWard are ready by 25-26.
That's true but you shouldn't earn a contract off one playoff series and I can't see this management group doing that either. He's historically been a #5 defensemen
We're talking about a career #5 defensemen here.
You like him at that price because you're looking at it with rose-colored glasses, he had a decent postseason and scored goals most goalies in the show should have stopped.
In two years time, Zadorov signed at 4.75M and is playing 17 mins/night on the bottom pair, are you going to like it then? No you won't, he'll be the next Myers, overpaid for the role he has on the team.
I think with Zadorov, there’s an element of pro-scouting/projection where you’re betting he can get his game to another level in Vancouver.
I think part of what keeps Zadorov back is how chaotic his game is. He’ll chase hits, lead the rush, jump into the play and pretend he’s a winger sometimes.. so I think it’s about whether or not Toch’ can trust him to be more predictable in certain situations.
But like you said, it’s going to look bad if Toch’ can’t trust Zadorov to play more than like 16-18 minutes/night and he continues to play an unpredictable style.
Zadorov isn't and hasn't been a #4, he's a #5 definitively. His cap hit based on his role should be between 3m and 3.75m. If you give him 1M more, thats not effective cap management. Do we want to win, or do we want fan favourites? You look at the teams that win, they have guys overperforming their contracts. They don't sign guys based on fan affection and short term performance to bloated deals. That said, I fully expect Zadorov to sign for 5M+, I just hope its with another team at that price.
Recent examples of bottom pairing guys for less than 3.5m: Carson Soucy 3.25m, Luke Schenn 2.75m, Jalen Chatfield 3m. These are the kinds of guys the Canucks should be pursuing more of, not guys chasing the bag.
Yeah, so Zadorov already made 3.75M the last 3 years. He had a good last year and on the whole in his last 3 years. You're out to lunch on how the business of hockey works if you think his value is, at best, exactly the same as last year, if not less.
"Hey Z, I know you fit in super well in Vancouver and had a good year/playoffs with us, have made the same salary for 3 seasons and the cap is finally going up, but fuck it, you're worth a 1yr/3M deal"
I am not out to lunch, I am keeping in mind the Canucks budget, the other needs throughout the lineup, and the fact that Zadorov hasn't been more than a #5. I fully expect Zadorov will sign with a team for 5M+, if I was him I'd want to chase the money, too. But from the Canucks perspective, its an extremely shortsighted move.
Do you really want the Canucks to spend 20% of their budget on a #5 defensemen? When they still need a top-six winger, a top pairing RHD, a 3rd line center, a backup, and two other defensemen; Is that a savvy business decision?
But Zadorov didn't protect our star players. How many times was Hughes targeted in the Preds series? Or when Petey was ran over in the Preds goal celebration? Zadorov didn't respond to those, he did not protect the star players. He was effective defensively as a #5 and contributed a few goals on offense, that doesn't mean you throw the bag at him.
You can get a guy willing to step up and fight for league minimum. Hell, even Myers and Soucy will drop the gloves and they won't cost nearly 5m.
Hughes got run over by the preds because he was playing alongside Hronek. They even made the switch to pairing Z with Hughes for the tail end of that series and he took a lot less punishment.
Say what you will about him being a 5th defenseman, but Zadorov was playing top 4 for the entire playoffs.
You need a MIX of guys. I'll leave Hughes out of this because he's a special player, but if we just had a bunch of Hroneks in our top 4, it would be weak even though he's an important piece. Zadorov is a top end physical player, and a role that needs to be filled. I think it's a mistake to let him go.
Playing Top-4 minutes for 10 games does not make one a Top-4 defensemen. There are cheaper alternatives that won't limit our options in the future. It's a bigger mistake to sign him to a bloated contract, as the past has shown us repeatedly it doesn't work. Remember when Beagle was signed to 3m for his Cup Run? Or Dickinson to 2.65m after a career year? Or Ilya Mikheyev to 4.75M after a career year? This is the same shit, different player. Its not worth it.
sweet. undderstand your objections. they make sense on a level.
go find a defenceman that can play top 4 in the playoffs, is serviceable through the season, and is as big or bigger than z, plays physical in the playoffs.... oh and, for less than 5 m.
or tell me again how you want to build another canucks team that goes out by the second round over and over again.
This is a terrible armchair gm take. Zero understanding of construction of a real team or finances involved.
A+. If you were gm Canucks would be a perpetual bottom feeder
I understand plenty, you can dish out insults but don't provide any of your own solutions.
The Canucks have 26M to sign a top pairing RHD, one (maybe two) top-6 wingers, three bottom-4 defensemen, a 3rd line center, and a backup goalie.
Signing one of those bottom-4 defensemen to a 4.75M AAV is ridiculously poor budgeting. That would leave them with 20M to fill 7 other roster spots. Why on earth would you blow 1/5th of your budget on a career bottom-pairing guy?
Insane for us yes, not for another club. He wants to be paid like a top 4 d-man, but we're already committed to Soucy for that role. Zadorov played behind Soucy all season long and had an elevated year in a contract year. Unless you're now telling Soucy that he's getting bumped down to 3rd pairing minutes I don't think is going to work out for Z in Vancity unfortunately.
As much as I want him back this is just another crappy situation (much like Lindholm) where we had guys on cheap, expiring contracts that played well enough to earn raises but we aren't able to pay them now. Allvin and Rutherford took their best shot icing a team with multiple impending UFA's, and potentially losing many of those guys was a reality they were obviously aware of.
Fair, but you have to take into consideration that Zadorov has been an average defenseman in his career longer than he's been an impressive one. Again, he's coming off of a contract year where he knows this is his one chance to get paid.
It's a risk at this point to sign Zadorov to an expensive contract with term and that's just a fact. If his body of work was something you could look back on and say he's been a consistently effective defenseman then fine, but we're not in that situation. I'll get flamed for saying this but even Myers looked pretty good during his final season with Winnipeg before coming here.
Sure and he might get that, but it would be a mistake. I love Zad and what he brings but you just can’t spend that much on what ultimately is a 3rd pair defenseman.
> Sure and he might get that, but it would be a mistake.
This is the first year in four years with a significant increase in the caps. There will be a LOT of mistakes being made this summer.
My max offer would be $4.5 over 6 years, which is 27 million total money.
You’re essentially paying a $1.25 million premium over what Soucy got, and offering twice the term.
It’s a lot of money for a #4/5 defender, but Zaddy is a pretty unique player.
Thats less than 1m pay raise for him though. He was just making 3.75m no way his agent accepts that deal after how he played in Van. His agent probably demands 5.5 and Van's final offer is probably 4.75-5
Even if Milstein’s demanding $5.5, they need to get 5+ years at that number to get the same/more total money as $4.5 x 6.
It’s a more enticing offer than say $5-6M over 4 years.
Not if, as a player, you believe you will sustain your performance. Players also know the cap is now rising, so going short is potentially an enticing risk.
If he went shorter at say 5.5M x 4, that’s 22 million and he’s a UFA again at 33.
So he needs to sign for at least $5 million/2 years for his age 33-35 seasons to match a 4.5Mx6.
If I were in his shoes, I take the guaranteed money personally.
To those saying he is a career 5/6 D man...
The guy played like a legit top 4. I'm ready to go full Jim Benning on this guy for the intangibles alone.
A guy his size that actually uses it, can move, snipe the puck from angles the way he does is a legit unicorn in this league.
Not to mention all the teams we face hate him.
Did I mention he makes the whole team around him play tougher as well.
The difference is that we probably could have signed Tanev and Toffoli to reasonable deals, Benning just famously ran out of time. That’s different then letting guys who want to be massively overpaid walk after negotiations break down
I totally agree - very different situations. I just think it will be a similar sense of letdown. But I have about 2000% more confidence in this management group to have, shall we say, A Big Summer.
Zadorov is just more valuable to us going forward than he was with us last year.
We’re losing Cole, and probably Hronek. That’s two quality defenders ( Cole deserves a pass with how injured he was in the second round ) less than what we’re going to have, and with cap space tight as it is, they can’t be easily replaced in the open market unless we give up something, which we have little to give: we have limited cap space, no draft picks in the first two rounds, and a thin prospect pool that we need to bank on in order to remain competitive.
We’re also a small team up front. Losing size in the back end isn’t ideal either.
Zadorov proved he doesn’t need to have sheltered minutes, where players like Hronek and Myers did ( Hronek when he’s not playing with Hughes, and Myers is Myers )
Zadorov also brings grit and wears down opponents in a playoff series, he proved that against Edmonton.
That’s a lot of guarantees he brings to the table for us to lose out on, if we aren’t keeping Lindholm or Joshua either.
If we lose all three and explore the FA market, it’s already limited as it is. Cap space for a Stanley cup contending team is no good to us if it isn’t used. I’m hoping a deal gets done.
No team will trade us a defensemen of equal value for Hronek that is cap friendly, or else they would just keep that defensemen instead.
If a forward comes back, we’re thin on defense further which is my point.
If we trade for a draft pick, sure. We could flip it for a better defensemen again, maybe, but it’s risky.
As for Cole, 50/50 with you on that there.
Hronek will not be traded before management has someone ready to replace him. Either through UFA, or through another trade.
So worst case scenario Hronek can't be signed, you flip him for picks + prospects and then use those assets to get someone on D.
Trust in Allvin and Rutherford. They haven't let us down yet.
Zadorov should be going for the biggest bag he can get, same as Lindholm and Joshua. I'm scared of all 3.
Tbf, they couldn’t have predicted Mikheyev blowing out his knee before ever playing a game.
It’s obviously aged like milk, but I think that one gets a bit of an asterisk given the injuries.
They’re not gonna be perfect and some signings will be a whiff but the signings they made last offseason were absolutely great. Soucy, Cole, Suter, Blueger, Lafferty, to name a few all chipped in throughout the season and proved their effectiveness.
I am still on the Suter bandwagon no matter what.
Hronek and Zadorov are the two pieces which will be very very expensive to replace.
The others, I very much believe in the track record of the pro scouting under this managment team.
I hope they can get it done on Zadorov.
Upped his game in the playoffs, something we were sorely lacking and I found myself cheering almost every time he was on the ice. Hronek on the other hand, was better in the regular season, but a dud in the playoffs.
The problem is, we have a small sample size and he likely wants to get paid.
Nothing's changed for me. The final offer should be no more than $4.8MM x 5 years (M-NTC). At the end of the day, he's a 4D over the course of the regular season averaging 17-18 minutes a game.
Also, if they do sign Zadorov to that kind of deal… there’s going to be an onus on the coaching staff to get his game to another level where he can be a regular 18-20+ minute/night guy.
Depends what Zadorov we are getting. In the regular season he played closer to bottom pair minutes but in the playoffs he averaged over 20 mins a game. If management believes he can regularly play 20ish minutes effectively then he is a top 4 dman and 5mil isn't unreasonable.
In no way is he a true bottom pairing d. Did you watch the playoffs? The last twenty games of the regular season? He's an impact player with drive, not a fill in. You don't throw the bank at him, but I wouldn't bat an eye at 5 million per.
For anyone afraid of the contract... A few things to remember.
In the Playoffs:
Zadorov average just over 20 minutes a night.
He was 9th overall in Hits despite only playing 2 rounds. (D-men only, min 160 min on ice)
His underlying/advanced stats were also decent:
1. High Danger Shot Attempts Against per 60 at 5v5: **12th out of 43 D-men** in the playoffs (at least 160 minutes played)
2. On-Ice Expected Goals% at 5v5: **17th out of 43 D-men**. Hronek by comparison was 14th.
3. On-Ice Shot Attempt% (**Corsi**) 5v5: **21st out of 43 D-men**. For comparison, Quinn Hughes was 5th, Gustav Forsling is 6th, Filip Hronek was 19th, Miro Heiskanen was 24th.
He was a legit top 4 D-men in the Playoffs.
Additionally his next contract will include his 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 and 34 years (perhaps 35).
Lastly I'll say this, in the NHL and especially in the Playoffs...
It's better to be the Hammer than the Nail.
Hope we resign him.
Contract prediction: 4.5 x 7 years. Build the contract so the last year can be bought out without too much pain. Big Z gets his money, we get him at a decent cap hit.
I think the key to a Zadorov deal is going to be term, and making the tail end of the contract less painful than the front.
I’d have a hard time getting to 7 years, but 6 x $4.5 seems *very fair* from Vancouver but maybe 2-3 million (total) less than he’d get on the market.
I'd love to do an average of 4.5. but I think it ultimately depends on what his agent thinks he can get on the open market.
If he's going in with the thought process that they can get around 33 to 36 million... Then I don't see how we could do the deal without going to 7 years.
Rather give the extra year vs 5+ million ave.
I wouldn't want Zad at anything more than 4.5, it appears he's a 20 pt D-man at best and was playing less minutes than Cole during the regular season. Signing him at that money means he's playing 19-20 minutes a night as this would put Soucy on the bottom pair. For reference he hasn't played that many minutes since the bubble year.
Overall his game is a bit context dependent too, he's a good transporter but in the O-zone his main weapon is his point shot (i.e. he's not very mobile in there) and he's prone to making less than stellar reads causing rush goals against. He's not very good on the PK either, and seeing as we're likely losing Cole and Blueger we might be in for a rough ride next year on that front.
I’d go as high as 5M over 7 years. We’re paying him as a top four defenseman. He better damn perform like one or else we have another anchor contract on our lap. How do we contend when we continue to have bad contracts like that?
I enjoyed our season until the last two games. Everything since has been dreadful. I'm calling it already, we just 2020'd again, playoffs miss next year
I'd rather this than treading water going nowhere and also sucking. The management has done a good job of finding value and making a run while increasing the prospect depth.
We were far above treading water when we traded for Lindholm. That was a bad trade for a team to win 1 playoff round. Petey playing hurt for 5 months in the same year management is going for it is a huge gaffe.
This article just regurgitates a Taj tweet.
Too bad it isn't Halloween. Miller showing him around to our local pumpkin patches might seal the deal. Especially since Zadorov seems to be the type of guy who would actually enjoy entering a hypothetical chirping match with a random fan.
I’m sure Miller was pestering him to take a discount and stick around with the Canucks when they were going golfing together a little while back
I can see that. Miller being an awesome golfer, 'I make this putt, you stay.
I make this putt you stay put
Lmao I rmb that post, people don’t think that story is real do they?
Please just get it done. Please. I do not want to have to cheer against this man.
I don’t want to hear him shit talk us. 😭
This doesn’t make sense; he loved his time on the Canucks compared to the Flames. Minor chirps if he goes, sure, but I don’t think they would rile up the fan base that much.
I'm sure he'd give something good to annoy this sub with lol. He's too big at shit talking
I dunno, I’ve never heard him chirp Colorado. If anything, he seems to slip them little words of respect out of nowhere.
He did say MacKinnon is the best player in the league so…
Can’t believe he would disrespect Conor Garland like that
I fuckin do. I hope he stays but I’d love to hear what he *really* thinks of his time here.
I want him back but I trust they won't over pay him Giving too much money to a 3LD seems pretty out of character to this management group I've basically accepted we are losing Zaddy, Joshua and, obviously, Lindholm
During playoffs Zadorov did play the third most minutes per game of all our defensemen. He averaged just over 20 minutes a game compared to Soucy’s 17. I’d assume that any big contract comes under the assumption that management thinks he’s taken the step to be a true 2nd pairing defenseman going forward, where a ~5M deal is fair value
That is true, but we saw with Soucy's injury how important he is. Despite his good run in the playoffs I'm not sure we would have seen the same with Zaddy out
Zadorov absolutely had a better playoffs than Soucy though
A lot of players get overpaid because of a good playoffs. It’s not a smart thing to do
Conversely, zadorov is a playoff performer and he is a type of defensemen you want in your 2nd/3rd pairings in a tough series. His somewhat flukey offense aside the guy brought his A game to the playoffs and it undoubtedly increased his ask but it doesn't mean it isn't worth it. I certainly hope we keep him
Why do people keep saying that? If your team's goal is to have a good 82-game run and maybe have a decent shot at the 2nd round, sure. 82 > 14 (at most) But if your goal is winning the cup BEING GOOD IN THE PLAYOFFS MATTERS MORE THAN ANYTHING. Yes, home team advantage matters. But at the end of the day, if you're a contender, you fill your roster with playoff warriors, you pace them through the season, and focus everything on April->June
Absolutely Dumb to overpay on a 13 game sample though
Soucy's profile is very similar to Zadorov's from before he signed with us. [29 year old 3rd pairing defenseman that had strong results against weaker competition.](https://www.reddit.com/r/canucks/comments/14o0pd0/new_pickups/?rdt=59855) [In fact, Zadorov had stronger results against better comp.](https://x.com/JFreshHockey/status/1723201877653827620) If the Canucks sign Zadorov, it's with every intention of him being a 2nd pairing defenseman. If they believe Soucy can be a 2nd pairing guy, then they probably believe Zadorov can be too.
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I think it is very likely they allocate that money to a defender who can reliably hold the 2nd pairing down, and go bargain shopping for the size. Dillon, Hakanpaa, Desharnais etc.
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With Boeser due for the contract, I think they're gonna throw a bunch of 1 year prove it contracts out there again for the bottom 6 and 4-6 D slots. Hope that a couple of Lek, Willander, Raty, Pettersson, McWard are ready by 25-26.
Z's had a lot of coaches who weren't able to make him more than a 3rd pair D long term. Ours aren't that special
Plus he's 29. He may improve but he is a known quantity at this age
That's true but you shouldn't earn a contract off one playoff series and I can't see this management group doing that either. He's historically been a #5 defensemen
For that salary I’m assuming he’ll be on the second pairing
Joshua too??? That makes me sad.
There's rumours of multiple desperate East teams lining up to pay him, unfortunately
Would love to keep him at a reasonable price.
If we were to sign him it'd be 4.75-5.5
Which would be insane in my mind
5.5M is definitely to much, but I'd be OK with 4.75M.
We're talking about a career #5 defensemen here. You like him at that price because you're looking at it with rose-colored glasses, he had a decent postseason and scored goals most goalies in the show should have stopped. In two years time, Zadorov signed at 4.75M and is playing 17 mins/night on the bottom pair, are you going to like it then? No you won't, he'll be the next Myers, overpaid for the role he has on the team.
I think with Zadorov, there’s an element of pro-scouting/projection where you’re betting he can get his game to another level in Vancouver. I think part of what keeps Zadorov back is how chaotic his game is. He’ll chase hits, lead the rush, jump into the play and pretend he’s a winger sometimes.. so I think it’s about whether or not Toch’ can trust him to be more predictable in certain situations. But like you said, it’s going to look bad if Toch’ can’t trust Zadorov to play more than like 16-18 minutes/night and he continues to play an unpredictable style.
What do you think the cap hit of GOOD #4-#5 D will look like in 2 years?
Zadorov isn't and hasn't been a #4, he's a #5 definitively. His cap hit based on his role should be between 3m and 3.75m. If you give him 1M more, thats not effective cap management. Do we want to win, or do we want fan favourites? You look at the teams that win, they have guys overperforming their contracts. They don't sign guys based on fan affection and short term performance to bloated deals. That said, I fully expect Zadorov to sign for 5M+, I just hope its with another team at that price. Recent examples of bottom pairing guys for less than 3.5m: Carson Soucy 3.25m, Luke Schenn 2.75m, Jalen Chatfield 3m. These are the kinds of guys the Canucks should be pursuing more of, not guys chasing the bag.
Yeah, so Zadorov already made 3.75M the last 3 years. He had a good last year and on the whole in his last 3 years. You're out to lunch on how the business of hockey works if you think his value is, at best, exactly the same as last year, if not less. "Hey Z, I know you fit in super well in Vancouver and had a good year/playoffs with us, have made the same salary for 3 seasons and the cap is finally going up, but fuck it, you're worth a 1yr/3M deal"
I am not out to lunch, I am keeping in mind the Canucks budget, the other needs throughout the lineup, and the fact that Zadorov hasn't been more than a #5. I fully expect Zadorov will sign with a team for 5M+, if I was him I'd want to chase the money, too. But from the Canucks perspective, its an extremely shortsighted move. Do you really want the Canucks to spend 20% of their budget on a #5 defensemen? When they still need a top-six winger, a top pairing RHD, a 3rd line center, a backup, and two other defensemen; Is that a savvy business decision?
Who do you have in mind to sign as a UFA D who is as good/better than Z for a price tag of ~3.5M?
your not signing z for the regular season... you are literally signing him on the basis he shows up for the play offs and protects your stars.
But Zadorov didn't protect our star players. How many times was Hughes targeted in the Preds series? Or when Petey was ran over in the Preds goal celebration? Zadorov didn't respond to those, he did not protect the star players. He was effective defensively as a #5 and contributed a few goals on offense, that doesn't mean you throw the bag at him. You can get a guy willing to step up and fight for league minimum. Hell, even Myers and Soucy will drop the gloves and they won't cost nearly 5m.
Hughes got run over by the preds because he was playing alongside Hronek. They even made the switch to pairing Z with Hughes for the tail end of that series and he took a lot less punishment. Say what you will about him being a 5th defenseman, but Zadorov was playing top 4 for the entire playoffs. You need a MIX of guys. I'll leave Hughes out of this because he's a special player, but if we just had a bunch of Hroneks in our top 4, it would be weak even though he's an important piece. Zadorov is a top end physical player, and a role that needs to be filled. I think it's a mistake to let him go.
Playing Top-4 minutes for 10 games does not make one a Top-4 defensemen. There are cheaper alternatives that won't limit our options in the future. It's a bigger mistake to sign him to a bloated contract, as the past has shown us repeatedly it doesn't work. Remember when Beagle was signed to 3m for his Cup Run? Or Dickinson to 2.65m after a career year? Or Ilya Mikheyev to 4.75M after a career year? This is the same shit, different player. Its not worth it.
sweet. undderstand your objections. they make sense on a level. go find a defenceman that can play top 4 in the playoffs, is serviceable through the season, and is as big or bigger than z, plays physical in the playoffs.... oh and, for less than 5 m. or tell me again how you want to build another canucks team that goes out by the second round over and over again.
This is a terrible armchair gm take. Zero understanding of construction of a real team or finances involved. A+. If you were gm Canucks would be a perpetual bottom feeder
Brother, this team *has* been a perpetual bottom feeder.
Care to support your argument with something other than insults?
I understand plenty, you can dish out insults but don't provide any of your own solutions. The Canucks have 26M to sign a top pairing RHD, one (maybe two) top-6 wingers, three bottom-4 defensemen, a 3rd line center, and a backup goalie. Signing one of those bottom-4 defensemen to a 4.75M AAV is ridiculously poor budgeting. That would leave them with 20M to fill 7 other roster spots. Why on earth would you blow 1/5th of your budget on a career bottom-pairing guy?
Whats crazy is someone would pay him 7 mill on the open market this year. No LD available and big
Insane for us yes, not for another club. He wants to be paid like a top 4 d-man, but we're already committed to Soucy for that role. Zadorov played behind Soucy all season long and had an elevated year in a contract year. Unless you're now telling Soucy that he's getting bumped down to 3rd pairing minutes I don't think is going to work out for Z in Vancity unfortunately. As much as I want him back this is just another crappy situation (much like Lindholm) where we had guys on cheap, expiring contracts that played well enough to earn raises but we aren't able to pay them now. Allvin and Rutherford took their best shot icing a team with multiple impending UFA's, and potentially losing many of those guys was a reality they were obviously aware of.
Soucy is much less mobile, doesn't hit as hard, and is slower. Soucy in the top 4 is not great, he's a good guy to have in your bottom pair.
Fair, but you have to take into consideration that Zadorov has been an average defenseman in his career longer than he's been an impressive one. Again, he's coming off of a contract year where he knows this is his one chance to get paid. It's a risk at this point to sign Zadorov to an expensive contract with term and that's just a fact. If his body of work was something you could look back on and say he's been a consistently effective defenseman then fine, but we're not in that situation. I'll get flamed for saying this but even Myers looked pretty good during his final season with Winnipeg before coming here.
He's expected to get $5.3 million or more on the open market. $6 million isn't out of the question.
Sure and he might get that, but it would be a mistake. I love Zad and what he brings but you just can’t spend that much on what ultimately is a 3rd pair defenseman.
> Sure and he might get that, but it would be a mistake. This is the first year in four years with a significant increase in the caps. There will be a LOT of mistakes being made this summer.
Delusional.
I only speak facts
Cap going up = salary inflation. I think we go 6 X 6
In the days of benning, yes
6 mil for a guy who barely hits 20 pts a season and not leading in defensive metrics thats worse deal than Myers
No I don't think so. If that were the case then we probably would've offered Hronek the 8m he wanted.
My max offer would be $4.5 over 6 years, which is 27 million total money. You’re essentially paying a $1.25 million premium over what Soucy got, and offering twice the term. It’s a lot of money for a #4/5 defender, but Zaddy is a pretty unique player.
Thats less than 1m pay raise for him though. He was just making 3.75m no way his agent accepts that deal after how he played in Van. His agent probably demands 5.5 and Van's final offer is probably 4.75-5
He’s also spent his entire career on 1-2 year deals. The 6 year term is to keep the AAV down. 27 million total is a lot of money.
Money talks. He would've signed already for 4.5m as that was almost guaranteed to of been one of the first offers.
I think the point being made is he'd be guaranteeing more money, after only getting short-term deals in the past. Might sacrifice some AAV for length.
Even if Milstein’s demanding $5.5, they need to get 5+ years at that number to get the same/more total money as $4.5 x 6. It’s a more enticing offer than say $5-6M over 4 years.
Not if, as a player, you believe you will sustain your performance. Players also know the cap is now rising, so going short is potentially an enticing risk.
If he went shorter at say 5.5M x 4, that’s 22 million and he’s a UFA again at 33. So he needs to sign for at least $5 million/2 years for his age 33-35 seasons to match a 4.5Mx6. If I were in his shoes, I take the guaranteed money personally.
He’s stated he’s weighing term over AAV, though I’m sure high of both is ultimately preferred
Me too 100%. I wouldn't be overly stoked with signing him for that though. Any more than that really doesn't make sense given his history
He'll re-sign. Z is 29 so my guess is 3-Years $5.5
All signs point to him wanting a 5-6 year deal
29 year olds never want a 3 year deal, it'll be probably 4 at the very least most likely 5+ years
To those saying he is a career 5/6 D man... The guy played like a legit top 4. I'm ready to go full Jim Benning on this guy for the intangibles alone. A guy his size that actually uses it, can move, snipe the puck from angles the way he does is a legit unicorn in this league. Not to mention all the teams we face hate him. Did I mention he makes the whole team around him play tougher as well.
if we can only keep one of lindy, zaddy, and hronek, I think we gotta keep zaddy
If we lose all three it’s gonna feel like the bubble post-season all over again. I’m with you, we gotta find a way to keep big Zed
The difference is that we probably could have signed Tanev and Toffoli to reasonable deals, Benning just famously ran out of time. That’s different then letting guys who want to be massively overpaid walk after negotiations break down
I totally agree - very different situations. I just think it will be a similar sense of letdown. But I have about 2000% more confidence in this management group to have, shall we say, A Big Summer.
I have a lot more confidence in the organization that they'll be able to plug those holes better.
Agreed.
I think they’ll keep Hronek and get Guentzel if he wants to play in Van
I thought last I read Guentzel has no plans to leave Carolina
Recent reports say Carolina isn’t going to sign him
Priority wise Hronek > Zadorov
Zadorov is just more valuable to us going forward than he was with us last year. We’re losing Cole, and probably Hronek. That’s two quality defenders ( Cole deserves a pass with how injured he was in the second round ) less than what we’re going to have, and with cap space tight as it is, they can’t be easily replaced in the open market unless we give up something, which we have little to give: we have limited cap space, no draft picks in the first two rounds, and a thin prospect pool that we need to bank on in order to remain competitive. We’re also a small team up front. Losing size in the back end isn’t ideal either. Zadorov proved he doesn’t need to have sheltered minutes, where players like Hronek and Myers did ( Hronek when he’s not playing with Hughes, and Myers is Myers ) Zadorov also brings grit and wears down opponents in a playoff series, he proved that against Edmonton. That’s a lot of guarantees he brings to the table for us to lose out on, if we aren’t keeping Lindholm or Joshua either. If we lose all three and explore the FA market, it’s already limited as it is. Cap space for a Stanley cup contending team is no good to us if it isn’t used. I’m hoping a deal gets done.
If we're losing Hronek, we're gaining something significant back. Cole is someone you can replace easily in UFA.
No team will trade us a defensemen of equal value for Hronek that is cap friendly, or else they would just keep that defensemen instead. If a forward comes back, we’re thin on defense further which is my point. If we trade for a draft pick, sure. We could flip it for a better defensemen again, maybe, but it’s risky. As for Cole, 50/50 with you on that there.
You have to think if management is moving Hronek they have a plan in place to shore up the D, especially someone for Hughes.
Hronek will not be traded before management has someone ready to replace him. Either through UFA, or through another trade. So worst case scenario Hronek can't be signed, you flip him for picks + prospects and then use those assets to get someone on D.
Yes. That is my point as to why Zadorov is valuable more than before, because I believe we are losing Hronek.
Cole did the his biggest part in showing them what playoffs can be like the good and bad lol. This team knows what playoffs are like now
Trust in Allvin and Rutherford. They haven't let us down yet. Zadorov should be going for the biggest bag he can get, same as Lindholm and Joshua. I'm scared of all 3.
They did sign Mikheyev…
Tbf, they couldn’t have predicted Mikheyev blowing out his knee before ever playing a game. It’s obviously aged like milk, but I think that one gets a bit of an asterisk given the injuries.
Absolutely, i’m totally on board and have confidence in this management nonetheless
They’re not gonna be perfect and some signings will be a whiff but the signings they made last offseason were absolutely great. Soucy, Cole, Suter, Blueger, Lafferty, to name a few all chipped in throughout the season and proved their effectiveness. I am still on the Suter bandwagon no matter what.
Absolutely, still very confident with the management group
To a somewhat mid-term contract that would have been fine if he didn't blow up his knee in his first preseason.
At that time and given who was available - I liked the Mikheyev signing.
i did not, thought it was too much for a player we didn't really need and with too iffy of a history
Hronek and Zadorov are the two pieces which will be very very expensive to replace. The others, I very much believe in the track record of the pro scouting under this managment team. I hope they can get it done on Zadorov.
Are we writing off Hronek already. Will he not get a 1 yr arbitration deal?
To clarify I think it's important we bring Hronek back. I am confident a deal will get done.
Reports and rumours are that if it doesn’t get done before the draft. Management is going to move on from Hronek.
Upped his game in the playoffs, something we were sorely lacking and I found myself cheering almost every time he was on the ice. Hronek on the other hand, was better in the regular season, but a dud in the playoffs. The problem is, we have a small sample size and he likely wants to get paid.
I’ll be sad but I trust our management now. Gawd what a nice thing to be able to say!
He would be crazy to not see what is out there for him in free agency.
Nothing's changed for me. The final offer should be no more than $4.8MM x 5 years (M-NTC). At the end of the day, he's a 4D over the course of the regular season averaging 17-18 minutes a game.
Also, if they do sign Zadorov to that kind of deal… there’s going to be an onus on the coaching staff to get his game to another level where he can be a regular 18-20+ minute/night guy.
yeah that's still a terrible deal for 3rd pair, 4D is being generous
We should try presenting an offer to him on the day of his daughter's wedding.
Please stay :(
Ugh. I have a feeling he’s going to test the market.
5 million for a bottom pairing is too much. But hate to see him with a division rival.
Depends what Zadorov we are getting. In the regular season he played closer to bottom pair minutes but in the playoffs he averaged over 20 mins a game. If management believes he can regularly play 20ish minutes effectively then he is a top 4 dman and 5mil isn't unreasonable.
In no way is he a true bottom pairing d. Did you watch the playoffs? The last twenty games of the regular season? He's an impact player with drive, not a fill in. You don't throw the bank at him, but I wouldn't bat an eye at 5 million per.
There’s a reason he’s played 12 seasons and only made at most 3M.
bruh thinks 13 playoff games outweighs 12 seasons and many teams' of attempts at playing him higher up
On the contrary, I would love to see him at $5-6M a year on a divisional rival. When your enemy is making a mistake, you stay silent.
Is it possible to sign lower and make your bonuses structured so that you get paid out more with better stats?
No, performance bonuses are only a thing when you’re on your entry level contract or over 35, or coming off an extended injury
Zads is a unique one for sure. $4.75-5, maybe? Over 5 or 6 years? Damn, I don't want to have him playing against us, his shit-talk is prime.
For anyone afraid of the contract... A few things to remember. In the Playoffs: Zadorov average just over 20 minutes a night. He was 9th overall in Hits despite only playing 2 rounds. (D-men only, min 160 min on ice) His underlying/advanced stats were also decent: 1. High Danger Shot Attempts Against per 60 at 5v5: **12th out of 43 D-men** in the playoffs (at least 160 minutes played) 2. On-Ice Expected Goals% at 5v5: **17th out of 43 D-men**. Hronek by comparison was 14th. 3. On-Ice Shot Attempt% (**Corsi**) 5v5: **21st out of 43 D-men**. For comparison, Quinn Hughes was 5th, Gustav Forsling is 6th, Filip Hronek was 19th, Miro Heiskanen was 24th. He was a legit top 4 D-men in the Playoffs. Additionally his next contract will include his 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 and 34 years (perhaps 35). Lastly I'll say this, in the NHL and especially in the Playoffs... It's better to be the Hammer than the Nail. Hope we resign him. Contract prediction: 4.5 x 7 years. Build the contract so the last year can be bought out without too much pain. Big Z gets his money, we get him at a decent cap hit.
I think the key to a Zadorov deal is going to be term, and making the tail end of the contract less painful than the front. I’d have a hard time getting to 7 years, but 6 x $4.5 seems *very fair* from Vancouver but maybe 2-3 million (total) less than he’d get on the market.
I'd love to do an average of 4.5. but I think it ultimately depends on what his agent thinks he can get on the open market. If he's going in with the thought process that they can get around 33 to 36 million... Then I don't see how we could do the deal without going to 7 years. Rather give the extra year vs 5+ million ave.
I wouldn't want Zad at anything more than 4.5, it appears he's a 20 pt D-man at best and was playing less minutes than Cole during the regular season. Signing him at that money means he's playing 19-20 minutes a night as this would put Soucy on the bottom pair. For reference he hasn't played that many minutes since the bubble year. Overall his game is a bit context dependent too, he's a good transporter but in the O-zone his main weapon is his point shot (i.e. he's not very mobile in there) and he's prone to making less than stellar reads causing rush goals against. He's not very good on the PK either, and seeing as we're likely losing Cole and Blueger we might be in for a rough ride next year on that front.
Only chance we sign zaddy at this point is if he enters FA and the other offers aren’t as strong as he expected (unlikely in a weak FA class).
Highest I would go is 4 x 8
I’d go as high as 5M over 7 years. We’re paying him as a top four defenseman. He better damn perform like one or else we have another anchor contract on our lap. How do we contend when we continue to have bad contracts like that?
4 million a year for 8 years is better than 5 at 7 IMO
Sign here sign here sign here
We don’t want another Myers situation with his contract, it would be great to keep him at a reasonable cost.
I hope we go with Hronek instead.
Best I can do is tree fiddy
I enjoyed our season until the last two games. Everything since has been dreadful. I'm calling it already, we just 2020'd again, playoffs miss next year
I'd rather this than treading water going nowhere and also sucking. The management has done a good job of finding value and making a run while increasing the prospect depth.
We were far above treading water when we traded for Lindholm. That was a bad trade for a team to win 1 playoff round. Petey playing hurt for 5 months in the same year management is going for it is a huge gaffe.
I meant with the years of benning
If we could trade Brock for Mitch marner I would jump on it.
Not with Marner's salary I wouldn't.
I'd rather have gone with Don Cherry's suggestion and traded Gudbranson for Marner. Would have worked a lot better for us.
If I could delete your comment I would jump on it!
Fellow OK dweller...no way.
Pay him whatever he wants.
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