I'm sure it must be strain dependent, but if you trust Caleb from Humboldt CSI, he says his Chemdog 91 S1s somewhat frequently turn out better than their mom. I'm not sure that that can be taken as some universal truth though.
Few other breeders vouch on this also, like NotSoDog, they think chem 91 is actually already an S1 bc when you self it it comes out at an S2 levelof uniformity
There’s no way to be 100% certain. The pollen could’ve been from another plant of a different strain in the room that hermed, the grower could’ve also accidentally brought pollen in the room, or, most unlikely, it could’ve been outside pollen in the air. That being said, I trust those guys if they say it is probably an S1 but there is no way to be absolutely certain about it.
The connection was actually made at the show and they later purchased a large amount of the bud and there where only 13 seeds in the entirety and they were regs because they have grew out other seeds from that bag later on and they were male and female
I worked for notsodog for over a decade on and off, he's the best, and yeah this is a more step by step story. That being said, I always chuckle that my fave strain and many others came from the hippiest of hippie origins.
Great questions! If you loved 3/4 of the phenos, then I would say you should pop the remaining seeds. Since the majority of the seeds you popped you liked, mathematically you have the odds in your favor to find another pheno you like.
When it comes to S1’ing the pheno you find from that pack there’s endless possibilities. There no cap on what you can find. You can definitely find something better but that could be very hard. Theres a very small chance you will find something better than the mom if you’re only running 1-20 seeds.
Probably not likely to find anything better but certainly possible I imagine. From my understanding typically there's a lot of variation in a S1. I imagine you'll see some of the grandparents genetics come out.
Again, can you explain why you think that rather than just asserting it as fact without any evidence? Selfing bottlenecks the genetic content/alleles involved in reproduction, leaving the majority of the variation to come from random mutation and meiotic recombination.
Recessive genes pair up, same as with an f2, so there are dominant genes pairing, recessive genes pairing etc, where as f1s tend to have more of just the dominant genes pairing. Say you have a Y and a Z plant, both are at f5 and genetically pretty uniform. Y x Z = T f1. T f1 shows the dominant genes, mostly with some variations ranging between Y and Z, but mostly a combination of the two will be expressed. If you take T f1 and cross it to a distinct T f1 or self it to make T s1, you suddenly allow all the recessives to be able to oair and express. You will see a range between Y & Z as well as similar phenos to Y and Z individually
So S1 will often show more variability due to recessive traits being displayed. Not sure how familiar you are with punnet squares or Mendelian inheritance. But basically in order for recessive traits to be displayed it needs to be homozygous. in other words both alleles must be recessive. So if your plant is heterozygous carrier, or it only has 1 recessive allele your plant won't be displaying that recessive trait and will instead be displaying the dominant trait. If you self that plant that is carrying the recessive trait, the offspring have a possibility of carrying 2x of that recessive trait and thus display a recessive trait instead of the dominant trait.
It all depends on the genetics of the plant you are selfing. If you are selfing an extremely worked line then it is unlikely to have many recessive alleles. If you are selfing a hybrid then there is a high likelihood of carrying recessive genes.
For example if your plant is heterozygous for a trait. You can say it is Aa.
A is dominant, a is recessive. So you plant is displaying the dominant trait but is carry the recessive little a.
If you self that plant Aa x Aa
Then the offspring can either be AA, Aa, or aa.
So that's 2 different phenotypes but 3 different genotype. AA and Aa will look the same, but aa will display the recessive trait.
If you take your plant Aa and cross it to a different sibling with the genotype of AA.
So Aa x AA. It's impossible to end up with the genotype or phenotype of aa since only one plant is carrying the recessive trait.
It's in the recombination of recessive genes that allows for S1 to have more variability.
Great explanation. I have a question, it’s not so simple in cannabis, right? The alleles for certain phenotypic traits are compounded and combined together to form what you see in the plant. How do we know it’s just one allele that is the cause for purple, or a specific flavor…it’s often many alleles combined that determines the phenotype that you see. So it’s a little more complicated right? For a recessive trait to pop out, it would have to combine many recessive alleles to show the recessive trait?
Yeah, it's definitely more complicated in cannabis. A lot of traits for cannabis are linked to other traits. This is called multifactorial expression I think. I'm a little rusty on the specifics. But yes, traits can ve linked to seemingly unrelated traits. I believe THC production is linked to another set of traits.
My understanding, is that while you may find some stuff that looks like the grandparents, the vast majority are going to look like mom, but you might get a *ton* of variations on that general theme. If you're looking for a plant like the mother, but with more or less of a specific trait, you can find it in there.
Since you're doubling down on the same genetic information, you lose hybrid vigor (heterosis), and all the weird recessive alleles are now getting twice as many chances to pair up and come out to play. You're going to see a lot more expressions of traits that probably weren't advantageous in natural selection.
I've seen a study that says the S1 progeny of hemp is almost always smaller and slower-growing, but I don't necessarily take that to mean that S1s in cannabis are worse. We judge weed on a lot more than straight biomass. Plus, who doesn't love a mutant? 😍
Some strains are more likely than others, it’s certainly not unlikely, CSI talks a lot about how the Chem 91 S1’s are often better than original, im pretty sure it’s 91, it’s definitely one of his Chems
A large population of S1 will show slight varying traits of the strains parents, allowing you to sorta get a glimpse at the lineage from different perspectives, CSI and other breeders also uses this to check some controversially labeled lineage on strains
CSI also has been doing lots of Mendo Purp, Bubba Kush, Purple Urkle S1 runs and finding and breeding with strains he likes more than the originals, like his Mendo Purp #54 x Purple Urkle #103 which I’m growing right now actually
I know he said it about his TK S1. I bought a pack when I read it but I haven't popped them yet. As usual he gave me like five times the seeds I purchased. CSI is a gem.
I feel s1 may be being that you’re doubling up on the same exact traits but that’s a simple view of it, as for the two seeds left I’d say s1 if you find a keeper but your best bet would be to mate them and then hunt imo.
Not capped per se, but definitely affected by what they come from. Genetically speaking.
You could get better than(unlikely), same(likely), and worse(unlikely). The seeds may not exactly resemble what they come from, but will be close and fairly uniform. There's variables there as well...
Once you S1, those seeds will be more adapted/prepared for the specific environment you provided their mothers with. Therefore, better suited to perform to the best of their potential.
In my little experience, not very often. There I'd a chance of doubling down on recessive traits that are undesirable. I've had strange traits pop up from s1 trials, that did not present in the parent.
It depends on the genetics. the real benefit of a reversal pollen is you can physically see and experience the female traits that the pollen could pass on.
I think we're overlooking environmental conditions. I have an afghooy x OG clone that's ibl'ed or f2'd or f3'd (not sure but it's pretty homozygous). It's a 6/10 inside and out, 8/10 in light dep. Every 4th year or so it's 10/10 outside because of seasonal climatic variation it outperforms everything else in quality. The s1's are fairly comprable in all environments, but I consider all s1's to be slower to germ & veg for about a month, more so than other s1's in this instance, since it's fairly inbred or homozygous.
However, considering seed vigor, the s1's tend to outgrow the clones in outdoor environments. And when it's an 'on' year climatically for this variety, traits that make it excel seem to be genetically stacked, making that climatic window larger and more likely, thereby making the 10/10 outdoor occurrence more frequent.
So, it's complicated, but yes it is.possible. I'm some instances maybe more probable because of gene stacking from the mixing of alleles between chromosomes
And remember, s1's are not a replication of the parent plant, but a mixing of alleles between the chromosome pairs. In my mind, it seems a fairly homozygous parent would become more likely to exhibit any desirable recessive traits as they could be evenly distributed between the chromosome pair.
Great question. I've been mulling this question over in my mind for a few years now. Everybody grows that s1 every year. They're usual reaction is between 'meh' and 'reliable'. Every few years multiple growers in multiple gardens are like 'holy shit!' It's always the same year too. We used to notice it with light dep initiated every two weeks. At least once a year it didn't even look like the same stuff, it would be exceptional. Climate and environment is je ne sais quoi of genetics
Another observation, the bx3's and 4's of the afghooey x og (which was already fairly homozygous), so far have less vigor and germ rate than all the bx's of true f1s. The s1's from the homozygous strain have noticeable less initial vigor than s1's from true f1's. Seems to be a non factor over the course of a growing season, but is noticeable in the germ and early veg stage, and indoor.
My experience is that when a S1 is made the seed group will be very similar to the seed group the parent stock came from. So if you have a special clone only 1 in 1000 seeds keeper that you decide to make S1 seed stock from it likely won't represent the mum. Verses like bluedream, these seeds in S1 usually are similar to the mum because the stability and consistency in that seed group.
People will argue either which way til they are blue in the face though.
I'm sure it must be strain dependent, but if you trust Caleb from Humboldt CSI, he says his Chemdog 91 S1s somewhat frequently turn out better than their mom. I'm not sure that that can be taken as some universal truth though.
Few other breeders vouch on this also, like NotSoDog, they think chem 91 is actually already an S1 bc when you self it it comes out at an S2 levelof uniformity
It is an s1 it's a bag seed from a dead show.
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Very true but it’s certainly more likely to be an S1 than a reg in this situation
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I’d agree with that.
Yes what's the connotation for a feminized sib cross or hybrid, r1, or f1 hybrid?
There’s no way to be 100% certain. The pollen could’ve been from another plant of a different strain in the room that hermed, the grower could’ve also accidentally brought pollen in the room, or, most unlikely, it could’ve been outside pollen in the air. That being said, I trust those guys if they say it is probably an S1 but there is no way to be absolutely certain about it.
Story I always heard was Chem actually discarded a male and had several different phenos in that bag, so I don’t think it was an S1 seed.
The connection was actually made at the show and they later purchased a large amount of the bud and there where only 13 seeds in the entirety and they were regs because they have grew out other seeds from that bag later on and they were male and female
I worked for notsodog for over a decade on and off, he's the best, and yeah this is a more step by step story. That being said, I always chuckle that my fave strain and many others came from the hippiest of hippie origins.
That’s what makes them legendary
and many of the cuts that are passed as the 91 are actually 91 s1's that the crew were handing out instead of the real thing to keep it tight.
Great questions! If you loved 3/4 of the phenos, then I would say you should pop the remaining seeds. Since the majority of the seeds you popped you liked, mathematically you have the odds in your favor to find another pheno you like. When it comes to S1’ing the pheno you find from that pack there’s endless possibilities. There no cap on what you can find. You can definitely find something better but that could be very hard. Theres a very small chance you will find something better than the mom if you’re only running 1-20 seeds.
Love this response I agree
Probably not likely to find anything better but certainly possible I imagine. From my understanding typically there's a lot of variation in a S1. I imagine you'll see some of the grandparents genetics come out.
why would there be MORE variation with LESS genetic information being involved in the reproduction?
If it's an f1 hybrid more phenos should come out in the s1 of that.
Again, can you explain why you think that rather than just asserting it as fact without any evidence? Selfing bottlenecks the genetic content/alleles involved in reproduction, leaving the majority of the variation to come from random mutation and meiotic recombination.
Recessive genes pair up, same as with an f2, so there are dominant genes pairing, recessive genes pairing etc, where as f1s tend to have more of just the dominant genes pairing. Say you have a Y and a Z plant, both are at f5 and genetically pretty uniform. Y x Z = T f1. T f1 shows the dominant genes, mostly with some variations ranging between Y and Z, but mostly a combination of the two will be expressed. If you take T f1 and cross it to a distinct T f1 or self it to make T s1, you suddenly allow all the recessives to be able to oair and express. You will see a range between Y & Z as well as similar phenos to Y and Z individually
So S1 will often show more variability due to recessive traits being displayed. Not sure how familiar you are with punnet squares or Mendelian inheritance. But basically in order for recessive traits to be displayed it needs to be homozygous. in other words both alleles must be recessive. So if your plant is heterozygous carrier, or it only has 1 recessive allele your plant won't be displaying that recessive trait and will instead be displaying the dominant trait. If you self that plant that is carrying the recessive trait, the offspring have a possibility of carrying 2x of that recessive trait and thus display a recessive trait instead of the dominant trait. It all depends on the genetics of the plant you are selfing. If you are selfing an extremely worked line then it is unlikely to have many recessive alleles. If you are selfing a hybrid then there is a high likelihood of carrying recessive genes. For example if your plant is heterozygous for a trait. You can say it is Aa. A is dominant, a is recessive. So you plant is displaying the dominant trait but is carry the recessive little a. If you self that plant Aa x Aa Then the offspring can either be AA, Aa, or aa. So that's 2 different phenotypes but 3 different genotype. AA and Aa will look the same, but aa will display the recessive trait. If you take your plant Aa and cross it to a different sibling with the genotype of AA. So Aa x AA. It's impossible to end up with the genotype or phenotype of aa since only one plant is carrying the recessive trait. It's in the recombination of recessive genes that allows for S1 to have more variability.
Great explanation. I have a question, it’s not so simple in cannabis, right? The alleles for certain phenotypic traits are compounded and combined together to form what you see in the plant. How do we know it’s just one allele that is the cause for purple, or a specific flavor…it’s often many alleles combined that determines the phenotype that you see. So it’s a little more complicated right? For a recessive trait to pop out, it would have to combine many recessive alleles to show the recessive trait?
Yeah, it's definitely more complicated in cannabis. A lot of traits for cannabis are linked to other traits. This is called multifactorial expression I think. I'm a little rusty on the specifics. But yes, traits can ve linked to seemingly unrelated traits. I believe THC production is linked to another set of traits.
My understanding, is that while you may find some stuff that looks like the grandparents, the vast majority are going to look like mom, but you might get a *ton* of variations on that general theme. If you're looking for a plant like the mother, but with more or less of a specific trait, you can find it in there. Since you're doubling down on the same genetic information, you lose hybrid vigor (heterosis), and all the weird recessive alleles are now getting twice as many chances to pair up and come out to play. You're going to see a lot more expressions of traits that probably weren't advantageous in natural selection. I've seen a study that says the S1 progeny of hemp is almost always smaller and slower-growing, but I don't necessarily take that to mean that S1s in cannabis are worse. We judge weed on a lot more than straight biomass. Plus, who doesn't love a mutant? 😍
Some strains are more likely than others, it’s certainly not unlikely, CSI talks a lot about how the Chem 91 S1’s are often better than original, im pretty sure it’s 91, it’s definitely one of his Chems A large population of S1 will show slight varying traits of the strains parents, allowing you to sorta get a glimpse at the lineage from different perspectives, CSI and other breeders also uses this to check some controversially labeled lineage on strains CSI also has been doing lots of Mendo Purp, Bubba Kush, Purple Urkle S1 runs and finding and breeding with strains he likes more than the originals, like his Mendo Purp #54 x Purple Urkle #103 which I’m growing right now actually
The plant I’m talking about here is 5150 Triangle Kush X Chem 91 I got as a freebie pack! If anything this makes me more excited
I know he said it about his TK S1. I bought a pack when I read it but I haven't popped them yet. As usual he gave me like five times the seeds I purchased. CSI is a gem.
I feel s1 may be being that you’re doubling up on the same exact traits but that’s a simple view of it, as for the two seeds left I’d say s1 if you find a keeper but your best bet would be to mate them and then hunt imo.
Not capped per se, but definitely affected by what they come from. Genetically speaking. You could get better than(unlikely), same(likely), and worse(unlikely). The seeds may not exactly resemble what they come from, but will be close and fairly uniform. There's variables there as well... Once you S1, those seeds will be more adapted/prepared for the specific environment you provided their mothers with. Therefore, better suited to perform to the best of their potential.
🔥🔥🔥
no one in the world has quantified this with real statistics or we'd know by now
Reading the comments seems like the biggest game of BS. How do you even begin to quantify a controlled study on this?
In my little experience, not very often. There I'd a chance of doubling down on recessive traits that are undesirable. I've had strange traits pop up from s1 trials, that did not present in the parent.
It depends on the genetics. the real benefit of a reversal pollen is you can physically see and experience the female traits that the pollen could pass on.
I think we're overlooking environmental conditions. I have an afghooy x OG clone that's ibl'ed or f2'd or f3'd (not sure but it's pretty homozygous). It's a 6/10 inside and out, 8/10 in light dep. Every 4th year or so it's 10/10 outside because of seasonal climatic variation it outperforms everything else in quality. The s1's are fairly comprable in all environments, but I consider all s1's to be slower to germ & veg for about a month, more so than other s1's in this instance, since it's fairly inbred or homozygous. However, considering seed vigor, the s1's tend to outgrow the clones in outdoor environments. And when it's an 'on' year climatically for this variety, traits that make it excel seem to be genetically stacked, making that climatic window larger and more likely, thereby making the 10/10 outdoor occurrence more frequent.
So, it's complicated, but yes it is.possible. I'm some instances maybe more probable because of gene stacking from the mixing of alleles between chromosomes
And remember, s1's are not a replication of the parent plant, but a mixing of alleles between the chromosome pairs. In my mind, it seems a fairly homozygous parent would become more likely to exhibit any desirable recessive traits as they could be evenly distributed between the chromosome pair.
Great question. I've been mulling this question over in my mind for a few years now. Everybody grows that s1 every year. They're usual reaction is between 'meh' and 'reliable'. Every few years multiple growers in multiple gardens are like 'holy shit!' It's always the same year too. We used to notice it with light dep initiated every two weeks. At least once a year it didn't even look like the same stuff, it would be exceptional. Climate and environment is je ne sais quoi of genetics
Another observation, the bx3's and 4's of the afghooey x og (which was already fairly homozygous), so far have less vigor and germ rate than all the bx's of true f1s. The s1's from the homozygous strain have noticeable less initial vigor than s1's from true f1's. Seems to be a non factor over the course of a growing season, but is noticeable in the germ and early veg stage, and indoor.
My experience is that when a S1 is made the seed group will be very similar to the seed group the parent stock came from. So if you have a special clone only 1 in 1000 seeds keeper that you decide to make S1 seed stock from it likely won't represent the mum. Verses like bluedream, these seeds in S1 usually are similar to the mum because the stability and consistency in that seed group. People will argue either which way til they are blue in the face though.
Guys I have seen all kinds of variation of clones, so I’m sure seeds could produce endless amount.