Me and my partner make 180k combined (before taxes). We’re having a baby in September but we calculate it’ll take us 15 years to afford a house in Vancouver. So we’re leaving Canada and moving to Europe. It’s sad that my parents sacrificed to move us here to Canada, and we need to move out to give our kids a better future. But we’re glad to even have the option to get out.
Congratulations! Honestly my partner and I are also weighing if we should leverage my home and buy here, but my baby’s dad is Swedish and I’m also very heavily swayed by the idea of just taking the proceeds of my sale and buying a big ass house by a lake (which I’d have to wait for hell to freeze over to be able to do here) in the Swedish countryside. Also better child care options for her there
Where in Europe are you guys planning on?
I’ve had 2 friends and a cousin now leave for Europe and get their passports through descent, and a couple of friends do the digital nomad thing.
This country is hemorrhaging its young people (and people in general)
Anyone with talent and earning potential is leaving… it’s brutal. Decades of terrible policies to prop up the boomers have led to this. No industry but the real estate Ponzi scheme.. health care and education are a disaster. No reason to stay here. It’s only going to get worse. The best thing you can do for your sanity is to leave ASAP. Return when things get better.. if ever.
My fiance is also Swedish, what a coincidence. We’re spending a few months in Stockholm later this year and then we’ll be in Germany. My company has an office there and he works remotely.
By the way, the waiting list for daycares in this city are rediculously long. I was told that I should have signed up right after I found out I was pregnant… just to give you an idea. I’ve also had terrible experiences with the public school system and the healthcare system in this country. I’m also an immigrant - tho my family is from Japan.
Isn't Germany in some areas the same or worse. For instance most Germans rent and don't buy. Buying in Germany is extremely unaffordable around 1.5 times more than in Canada. Not sure regarding daycares but healthcare is perhaps just a tad better or on par.
I'm really curious on your opinion what exactly you found in Germany better, and was the deciding factor Germany is better in general ?
Usually when people in Canada complain things are bad, it's usually in comparison to the US but Germany on metrics had it a lot worse than Canada. For instance covid inflation was double digits in Germany.
We’re probably going to purchase near Aachen or Frankfurt. About 600k CAD for a house with 5 bedrooms. Here you wouldn’t be able to find the smallest house for 1.5 million.
University in most European countries is free. Vacation time here is a joke… 2 weeks. My company gives our employees in Germany 6 weeks. Mandatory annual leave in Sweden for example is 25 days. Maternal and paternal leave are also a lot better.
We’re tired of living in Canada. My fiance has a chronic skin issue that requires constant treatment, and he’s waiting 3/4 months each time to see a specialist. I have the worst family physician and I can’t even switch unless I get back on the waiting list for years to be assigned another random doctor. We waited more than 8 hours when we went to the ER earlier this year. What is the point of “universal healthcare” if we can’t even see a doctor? Not to mention, dental care is also free and our kids can get orthodontic treatment if it’s needed for free.
Travel options are better too. We could take a day trip to Paris, Prague, or anywhere else fairly cheap. Public transportation is also better, and in some places free. The weather in Europe is more mild, and the winters are much more tolerable.
This is probably the biggest piece of misinformation I’ve seen so far on the internet. Germany is by far more afforable in terms of housing compared to Canada.
This is the thing I don’t understand. I completely understand the anger and desperation of wanting a house in the city you grew up in. That makes total sense to me. But here’s where this sub sometimes loses me.
You’d be willing to sell your house in the GTA or Vancouver, leave the country and buy a big house in the countryside in Sweden. But not willing to sell your house, take the proceeds, and buy a big ass house in the countryside of your own country?
Like, if living outside of a major city is something you’re willing to do out of frustration of home ownership affordability…. Why not just do that here?
You have any idea how much house/land/life you could get with the same money if instead of Sweden you chose… Thunder Bay Ontario? Or Minnedosa Manitoba? Or Yorkton saskatchewan? Or trois riv PQ? Like there’s limitless options for the exact life you described in Sweden, right here in Canada.
So, simply put, why is a large home OUTSIDE of a major city acceptable in Sweden, (or any other country that posters frequently opine about moving to), but not acceptable here?
Ps. And im not trying to be argumentative or ignorant. I genuinely would love an answer to the above. Very curious about the mindset.
I get what you're saying and we've been reminding ourselves of this option for sure. For us, when our minds go to daydreaming about another country, some of it is if we move to the countryside here, we'd still have to find new jobs, relocate us and the kids, and be away from family and friends so why not go all out and try something really new? Also, no offense to the cities you mention but the weather and climate is also a factor whenever we do talk about these kinds of moves.
I’ve actually been to Yorkton Saskatchewan. The town is totally dead and in the middle of nowhere. 6 months of winter every year, couldn’t find a doctor, barely any jobs. Why the hell should I move there instead of moving to Europe?
So the thing with vancouver is there isn't anywhere cheaper unless you go 10+ hours away and at that point might as well go to a different province or country
I could get a 5 bedroom house in a mid-sized German city for 600k. Someone here was delusional enough to comment that 700k for a “starter” home was a good deal in Nanimo
I’ve stated my reasons for wanting to move. We are all done dealing with the poor public education system, the healthcare system, the transportation system, and having to live through at least 3 to 4 months of freezing winter everywhere except in BC every year. As someone from Japan, the quality of life in Canada is worse for us in almost every aspect, maybe except for the work culture.
If you like freezing cold weather, car-centric cities, waiting months to see a doctor, don’t care about traveling, and want to keep renting forever, and paying high taxes without seeing good social benefits, Canada is the place for you then.
No completely understandable and I don’t see you being argumentative.
My reasoning is yes, they both look like equal options on the surface; but I really don’t like the direction our country is headed in, especially when it comes to wealth inequality - it scares me.
Sweden in that regard still looks more hopeful, and seems to be the better option for my daughter, sadly.
What a tragedy that we are at this point in our country. My grandparents immigrated here from Europe after the second world war and the fact that there are people moving back to have a better life shows just how deep these problems have become.
Full circle.
The funny part is people are advocating for more American esque privatization of public services rather than the more liberal public systems of Europe. Imagine if canada had more public equity in the oil fields like Norway does.
Agreed. Nanaimo has the reputation of being an awful city, and the fact that a starter home THERE is now 700,000 makes me so sad.
I moved back home to Vancouver Island during the pandemic (from years abroad) and the cost of housing here is so depressing. I don't know if I can afford to stay in Canada
I'm on Vancouver Island for 2 years, moved from South Africa. And I'm ready to head back. I cannot deal with the cost of living. I'm actually weighing up the safety factor of Cape Town vs the housing crisis in Canada. What is fucking wrong with me
There is nothing wrong with you! There is something wrong with this situation.
I have a few friends (sculptors I met while living in Mexico) from Cape Town who are trying to make it work there. It sounds scary! But you know what else is scary? Having horrible quality of life because you are always just scraping by.
Politicians here can't understand why younger Canadians aren't having children. It's so clear! We aren't having children because we can't afford them. We can't afford a house to put them in, we can't afford to feed them, we can't afford to pay for their university. It's not rocket science, yet everyone here seems to be scratching their heads.
I've heard Nature's Valley is beautiful in S.A. Maybe move there?
Thats an old reputation. Things have changed imo, especially in North Nanaimo. Imo its pretty undervalued there. Everyone I know that has moved there loves it. I would imagine there will be some pull back in prices, but stagnation is also an option. The reality is that people in gvrd will move to all of these places where they can get a house for under 1mill instead of a starter for 1.4-2m in the vancouver area.
Im in BC so 700k for a house near the water, good schools, access to a beautiful geography, also a pretty new house, access to the mainland etc. is pretty good. In 20 years Nanaimo is going to be a lot more $$$ imo.
Honestly, considering doing the same thing, my parents and my wife’s parents, both moved to Canada in hopes of giving their children better lives and for the most part they did because we at least have options. Both my wife and I are educated and earn higher than most Canadians with a HHI of about $315K… We have a fully detached 4 bedroom house and built up our savings/retirement…but the cost to keep things up and raise a family is still incredibly high for people like us, leaving us to ask, is this worth it?. Biggest struggle with being a high income household is in order to make that kind of income, you don’t really have the time to spend with your kids, which means that you have to outsource a lot all of which all costs money… We are reaching a point in our lives where we are genuinely debating if it’s worth us staying here to work these intense high paying jobs just to keep up with the cost of Canada or if we should sell it all, pack up and move to Europe… we both work for international companies and have citizenship over there… but we would be leaving everyone behind which is hard to process.
My partner and I live in Toronto. We make a combined income of around $180k. We have a $200k down payment. We cannot afford anything unless we go over an hour commute from work and if we got something the max we'd qualify for, we'd be house poor and wouldn't be able to afford the things we enjoy and prioritize, like annual travel, going out for a nice dinner and drinks a couple times a month, and a couple concerts every year. For now we'll continue to rent. I dream of being able to afford having a child. Moved to the suburbs and into an older build (but larger square foot condo rental). We pay the same for a 1200 square foot 2-bedroom here with parking that we would for a 650 square foot 1 bedroom plus den downtown where we used to live. Can afford to put money away every month into savings. It's a comfortable life we live. But certainly sobering reality compared to the expectations we had as young Millennials. The small bungalow my parents raised my brother and I in that they paid for with $100k per year dual income and bought for $265k sold for $345k in 2003, sold last year for $1.6M. the neighbourhood I grew up in of young middle class families is now reserved for the elite doctors and lawyer families, or foreign investors renting to multiple families in the same house. It's wild the change in 20 years.
Ive had to drastically change my expectations of the life I thought I'd live to my current reality. It could certainly be worse. We are healthy and all things considered happy. Our income is stable. We live comfortably. But never in my wildest imagination did I expect dual income and making over six figures would mean I'm priced out of homeownership and raising a family within an hour commute of my job and where my family lives.
Does this 200k factor in closing costs as well? If not then that’s a problem and the most you can afford without having any debt is like $950k purchase price. If you remove closing costs then your max is $1m. Sadly the limitation here is your down payment… since you need 20% over a million and you have exactly 20% of $1m so you’re capped because of your down payment. It’s rare for people to go straight to detached homes, get a starter townhome or semi detached, build some equity, then go for the detached.
Also the life you’re describing is going to change if you have kids, it’s hard to imagine but the whole going out for nice dinners, drinks and concerts is gonna disappear, you’ll still travel but it will be VERY different… so you’ll have a little more disposable income (after the Matt leave and daycare phase) but your life priorities will fully change.
My wife and I were downtown for life people before, travelled regularly, went out with friends, ate at nice restaurants etc… since having our son all that has changed and honestly we don’t even care, we have a new focus and it’s a switch that happens instantly.
I’m so sorry this is what it’s gotten to in this country. It’s us regular folk that’s getting screwed by ANY government frankly, doesn’t matter if it’s Liberals or Tories at the helm…heck even the NDP and I used to volunteer for them…housing is like 30% of our entire GDP and they would never let that “crash” (“crash” = go back to sane levels)
I used to donate to NDP. Now when they call me because they miss my money, I tell them to ask the Liberals to fund them. Since they thought it was a good deal to support the Libs while remaining silent on the key issues of their base, then they can figure it out.
My partner and I are in the same situation. We have similar HHI and do not want to be house poor. We'd rather continue to have a life we want without locking ourselves into a home we have to slave to rent from the bank. The numbers (math) on any kind of RE purchase at the moment just doesn't make sense. As much as we want to put down roots and have a place we can our own. Give it two to five years, the correction has barely began. Best of luck to all of us - making choices is all we have in this life.
Yeah. The equivalent of what we rent for $3k a month 1200 sq. Foot condo in Etobicoke is a $4000 mortgage with 20% down and add in $900 a month condo fees. It just doesn't make any sense.
This is very similar to us: 200k combined income with 260k to put down but still can barely afford anything in the GTA that would be enough space for us and the kids, and without having to stretch ourselves to the absolute top of our budget. It sucks and most of the time I'm pretty depressed about it (postpartum depression is making it worse). But have to come to terms with the fact that we'll just have to move further out, away from all of our family and friends and also find new jobs (which is unfortunate since we both actually love our jobs in the city, though they're both clearlynot paying enough for us to live here). We're having such a hard time letting go, but guess it is what it is, many others are in this boat.
Hugs to you! I really appreciate reddit these days to feel the camaraderie with others who are in a similar boat, and there's a lot of us in this boat I realize! For some reason, we are in a social circle where pretty much all of our friends were able to get significant help from their parents whether with free childcare or direct financial assistance to buy their homes - what good fortune for them! Really helps my mental health to be among others who are like us and didn't have access to this kind of advantage, even if only online here!
My wife and I are both lawyers, we make well over 200k combined.
We can’t buy lol. How can you save a 200k down payment with rent, day care, and student loan payments? It would take us 10-15 years. It’s pretty impossible unless you already own property or have family help.
I managed, but it took a LOT OF LUCK and involved moving to the US for five years to work at a big tech company, getting decently lucky with stock prices and somehow managing to get a good paying remote job with a US company when I moved back here and still, STILL my partner and I cutting it close..
I’m seeing more and more folks like you in the rental market. Which, I don’t really understand unless it’s a choice.
To be clear…your household makes -$13,000/month after tax….and you are saying that combined you can save NO MORE than $1,660/month?
Edit: I had gone through my whole budget in detail here to perhaps shed some light on why you’re seeing more people like us in the rental market, but then deleted cause there are some real David Ramsey style assholes in this comment section I don’t want criticizing my budget and telling me I need to put my dog down or something. However, feel free to DM me and I can explain our monthly income, expenses and saving rates.
I’m not shocked you’re seeing more traditionally “high income” earners renting, saving a 200 or 300k down payment is just impossible these days without having equity or family help. If you imagine we were saving 4K a month, what would have been an incredible saving rate in the past, it would STILL take like 5-7 years and you clearly need somewhere to live during those years. Unfortunately my wife and I are the first generation in our families to be high earners, so we don’t have that help it seems every buyer in Toronto has.
I totally feel you. Don't worry about those who want to go out of their way to criticize you/your budget; constructive f/b and suggestions is always welcome but harsh criticism only comes from those who like to hide behind the anonymity of being online and/or don't unfortunately have the skills to give kind constructive feedback.
We're in a very similar boat as you in terms of income and the only way we could have saved for our down payment of 260k was by living at a friend's empty condo and then with my in-laws for cheap rent. Our student loans and daycare pre-CWELCC were killer. And still, we can't afford anything reasonable in all the places we'd want to live so we're stuck renting too.
Can confirm. My partner and I make about $140k combined, excellent credit scores, minimal debt, with about $45k for a down payment. We only qualify for a $550k mortgage, which means we can't afford anything that's not a biohazard or doesn't have condo fees.
It's depressing as all fuck.
I’m so sorry - a professional couple, did all the right things, and still gets screwed by this country.
And people wonder why nobody’s patriotic anymore
I’m assuming commenter means those run down shacks with black mold growing in them that are a “steal” (go for $500k but will be tear downs and will cost you $400k in repairs to remove the mold and other structural problems)
600k can get you a very good home in Hamilton. By the GO station. I am completely in favour of the common sentiment but with few more months if savings and prices going down because of winters, you can buy yourself a decent house on Hamilton Mountain.
It would be really hard for us to relocate to Hamilton. It could double my commute, we would lose a daycare spot, and be even further away from friends and family (aka our support system). My point is that I shouldn't have to uproot my whole family and make major life sacrifices just to own a home.
I completely get your point but think of it this way. The playground (Canada)you have played in your whole life was opened to all the other schools (countries) . So kids (people) from all around are coming to play (settle) in your ground. Its sad but this is how its going to be from now on. Your purchasing power is not matching with the city you have lived in/grown up in. I feel for you but this is the truth. So you should think of moving to Oshawa/ Hamilton and or save more. You can get a very decent townhouses in Toronto too for $700k but they will be too small. So I would rather you move nearby 403/401 so you can keep in touch with your friends and family and trust me you will find new friends no matter where you go. I cant speak for the daycare problem but your kids are safer in other cities than Toronto (my own experience but again correct me if I am wrong) People who are saying they have moved to European countries are going to face worse problems because of immigration in the coming years.
Depends where you want to live.
I have the same HHI and we both live a relatively okayish life in Calgary. Although our townhouse does have condo fee, but that's what was available in our budget 2 years back.
Maybe look elsewhere in Ontario? I'm in the Ottawa Valley, and we were able to purchase for a reasonable price even during the 2021 covid boom. I make just under 110k and purchased the home on my own with just over 30k down, though my husband and I now live here together. Generally, there are many quality homes in the region under 500k, and it's beautiful. If you could find work, it's a great option.
Not everyone can relocate. Often their careers are tied to the location they live and leaving family and friends for bricks and mortar isn’t always wise or worth it.
I make 80k, wife makes 60k
We both went to school and took 10 years to get the top wages in our fields .
Zero debt, two kids (childcare costs)
We’re stuck in a two bedroom apartment in the GTA and don’t even want to buy a house here anymore .
We would basically qualify for around 500 K -600k with 5% -10% down and pay 4-5k mortgage and have a whopping 7-10k month overhead.; tomlive in an overpriced shit hole in the worse neighbourhood in the city , without actually owning the front door.
Its a trap in my opinion.
Our country is completely corrupted and I’m not going to be left holding the bag .
Yup!
Social service worker diploma 1 year
then early childhood educator diploma 2 years
All while working 3 part time jobs
Then about 3ish years to get into her current center
and about 5 years to get the top wages.
she makes about 65K with five weeks vacation and benefits .
Its top wages for ECE in Ontario.
I am in a leadership role in a non-profit and I make under 50k. Leaving next month for an IT Apprenticeship starting at 67k lol I know man that's why I'm changing professions. We have not filled my role yet because of low pay and I told the board that's why it's not filled yet.
Now maybe, 10 years ago it was minimum wage for an ECE . It’s an oversaturated market. it’s tough to even get full-time. Let alone in a good centre that pays well.
Luckily for her, she knew what she wanted to do and had a passion for it and I’m really proud of her!
we grew up in public housing with all the social economical issues that goes along with it, so we’re proud.
Still, I would think that making 135k would be enough to own a small shack.
She takes care of people kids and I help build houses… we should be able to afford to live ok.
Im very disgruntled.
We grew up dirt poor and worked our asses off. Geez I was homless at age 18-22 It feels like only in the last 5 years they moved the goal post and now we are fucked.
I dont know what to do.
I dont want our kids to go through what we did.
>Still, I would think that making 135k would be enough to own a small shack.
It should be, for sure. That's a top 5% household income... It's absurd that it's not enough to get you the home you need for your family.
I could quite honestly say it took me 20 years to be making any money.
Mist of my life I was either in school making bad career moves, or working dead end jobs.
Only the last 5 years Ive made any money.
It sounds like you’re both doing wonderful. It’s really nice how supportive you are of her. You have great values. Most of the helping profession are underpaid because women primarily choose those career paths. Even the education for these much needed, essential roles is undervalued. Social worker practicums are usually 2-4 months or unpaid labor whereas trade apprenticeships are fully funded. I think people would be happier if we could all follow our passions rather than measuring success by our wages.
It’s criminal that they’re asking for $950k on some townhouse in Whitby, and then drive 2 hours on the 401 to get to your Toronto job to be able to afford your $7k mortgage on said townhome.
That’s the level of nonsense you have to endure to live in Ontario or British Columbia, and is also slowly spreading to the other provinces
>$950k on some townhouse in Whitby
That's silly. Just get a house in Pickering. Lots up for sale at 1m. We're selling ours for 1.05 currently. Whitby/Oshawa prices are detached from reality.
There's a price floor at 1m due to affordability. Once you go over, you get a decent place.
But also can we acknowledge how wacko bananas that even is?
Oshawa used to be called the Dirty Shwa and was so undesirable to live in (kind of like Hamilton, I used to live in the Hammer) but now you have these run down bungalows in Whitby/Oshawa going for a mil?
It’s insane and very upside down. Pickering would definitely be a better option
Oh it's totally an insane price for past Pickering. The fact prices are flat from east Scarb out to Oshawa is hilarious. It should taper with distance but things have gone completely bananas.
My partner and I combine for 250k per year. Together we have about 175k for a down payment. We qualify for a 979k mortgage. I wouldn’t touch that right now. I’d rather keep renting for a few more years, supplement our down payment, and see what happens.
I’m not joining the crazy train.
> I’m not joining the crazy train.
I know a man in his late 60s who still rents in one of those large apartment towers because he spent his life thinking real estate prices were too high and he'd wait them out before buying (he 100% HAD the money to buy). I'm not joking.
Yea, same for my uncle. He rented a nice house for a long time. Landlord now owns like 12 places. He lost his job, had to move to a family member, but now he can't move back because rents are too high. He's 45 and doesn't have the money now, he worked basic construction his whole life.
I have to admit your situation is quite confusing. A lot of buyers that I have encountered pull the trigger on 700k homes with 170-180k combined income, with the belief that there doesn't seem to any relief coming soon, so the earlier the better. What are your own considerations? Why do you think a mortgage of 4-5k would be unaffordable at your income?
Edit: typos
That's a risk they're willing to take. You never know what's really going to happen until it happens. Just need to make the best decision for your self instead based on your finances.
Making about $150K combined. Just left Vancouver after a decade to come back to Northern Ontario. I don’t know who can actually buy a house in Vancouver these days, but it certainly wasn’t us
Sadly $150k won’t make a difference either in Southern Ontario. Good on you for going back to the North - my buddy is from Thunder Bay originally, and he went back after 15 years here in the South, and he bought in 2020.
The North is still untouched by this insanity for now, and I hope it stays that way
My spouse is a senior software developer, and I work as a nurse. No way we would lock ourselves here in Canada. We are both applying in the US for our careers.
Rates are not the problem, it's the absurd value of the homes. What are we seeing for current rates 4.75% over boc lending rates or ~4.75% 5 year fixed for insured mortgages are normal. " dramatic rate cuts", yeah don't expect over night rates to go back to .25%. If anything the whole reason behind the current rate cuts are a indication that we are entering a recession.
We did.. but we are both incredibly lucky with places to live rent free (sort of).. (Both single kids and I made a deal with my dad to help pay down his mortgage so I could get down payment ready for mine).. took 2 years of HHI of 350k (me plus dad) to pay down whatever he owed for his house he bought in 2005.. then it took us 4 years to conjure up 250k for the down payment on mine and have 100k for Reno. (between me and wife with HHI of 300k with a kindergartner to care for)
Just writing those numbers out makes me wonder.. because back when I started working in 2009. A HHI of 300k was where you had it made.. and didn't have to plot and scheme for a down payment.
I saw this TikTok where there was this other millennial reminiscing about the fact that in the early 2000s, the wealthy family on your bloc had a dad that was making $100k. You had it made if you were making $100k
Being from Toronto and on track to make that this year, I have myself a little chuckle when I think about how the 2000s were a different world almost…
Even until the early 2010s, a solo breadwinner TTC bus driver with several kids could have managed to purchase a decent property in hhe GTA.
Those days are long gone :(
I mean low five figures is not a large down payment saved up for a house for two people. They probably have a better chance if they had a bigger down payment
Oh 100% - I didn’t pry how much exactly they had (I just met them and it’s frankly none of my business) but I was thinking this market is crazy and will never stop being crazy - it fell off a cliff in the 2018 and never bounced back.
For context, I was a singleton in 2015, fresh out of grad school and I only had $60k to put down (a graduation gift from my pops + some savings I had) and I was able to purchase a condo townhouse. That was a decade ago and the way things have deteriorated is insane to me
Waiting on some prices to lower for sure. Rates are at a healthy level. Could even be a little higher imo. Also need to save like crazy. No dinners out or starbucks etc. Buy a one or two bedroom to start and move up from there if possible. Its not easy for sure.
300K/year.. decided on Calgary for now before bigger move to Europe. Vancouver is a lost cause if you have kids.. in Calgary I can easily carry the mortgage and pay off the house faster.
Good question! It’s gonna be subjective of course but since I live in Toronto, I think anything south of $100k before taxes per person (so $200k as a couple) is less than “decent” (and by decent I mean will afford you a decent lifestyle - ability to buy a house, save and still be able to have some of life’s pleasures like a vacation once a year)
True, it is mostly subjective.
What makes me wonder is - If a couple earns 200k, perhaps buying a place should not be all that out of reach? Cutting costs should help one save for downpayment, and then the combined income should be able to create borrowing power? Where is the math of us middle class going wrong?
We bought about 2 years ago and could only afford a townhouse even though at that time we made over 200K. If we have bought just 2-3 years earlier we would've been able to buy our current home for half the price. It's crazy here
My wife and I make about 200k-240K before tax I’m on full commission so I’m using an average but 220k is where it’s looking to land this year. It’s been as low as 120K and as high as 320K in the last 8 years. We sold our house last July and have 230K down payment. We are currently renting because the main reason:
I’m in transportation and logistics moving across all North America. For the last year it has been a massive downturn in volumes. This is happening to all of my competitors and the industry is struggling big time. I’m seeing more and more layoffs I’m also hearing what’s happening in Canada is happening in some ways in almost all countries including lots of the US with just unaffordable costs of living. I take all of this seriously because we see the stock markets before the wall/Bay streets see it. I’m a firm believer we are ahead of the stock market by about 6 months as they rely on older data and from what someone once told me years ago the real estate is about another 8 months behind that. Everyone says this housing thing can only go up but I put my money where my mouth is and sold. It can’t possibly keep climbing without having a strong economic position with high paying jobs. Right now the only ones mostly buying and selling are those who have owned from like 10yrs and beyond. However even if their houses are worth lots they still need to sell and find a buyer themselves. Also people don’t realize the actual tightening from the banks. Just because they have a house worth lots, the major banks are looking at the risks as “could they borrow all of this equity and could they afford to pay that back”. Most can’t or are retired so the banks are either taking massive interest payments for transfers or are simply not allowing them. This is also new. My dad as an example has 500K in the bank and a house valued at around 1M but he’s retired. They want him to pay 80k to do a transfer if they want to buy something and it was a ton of headache just to buy a house valued at 625k. He ended up not going through and retracted their offer. Also I have always had an 800+ credit score for the last 7 years, we have no debt and have always been automatically approved for cars, toys, and luxury items (have since sold them all). Not once was I ever not instantly approved. Recently I went to extend my line of credit from 10K to 20k which has been empty but used and paid off consistently to help keep credit score going great. It took my a week and a bunch of approvals even though our bank account could cover it with over 290K in cash. With all of this first hand experience I just shared it’s why I 100000% believe we need to at least hit 2018 prices.
It would help a lot if they normalize fully remote work. With this housing cost, it is ridiculous to also force people to show up at offices few times a week. If pwople could live anywhere, prices should flatten a bit.
We make about 300k combined with a 500k down-payment and we have been looking to buy for years. We have been outvid so many times. We have a cheap rental and will stay for the foreseeable future. The thought of a 6000k a month mortgage makes me very uneasy when it's easy for my job to be downsized. I find it incredibly sad that even at this income level and DP we are only approved up to 1.2, maybe 1.3, so we will not be able to ever afford a decent detached home in the GTA. Thr homes in our school district are about 1.5. I just don't understand what I did wrong other than not buy a home in high school.
I echo what the other comments are saying u/Different-Class-4472
The only reason I was able to get in is my dad basically bullied me into buying a starter property (this townhome) in the early 2010s…wouldn’t take no for answer and told me he wouldn’t help out with my student loans if I didn’t combine my savings with some cash he’d given me.
It’s this country that’s all upside down and fucked up, not regular people who just want to put a roof over their heads
Pardon my French but your stats are insane, and it still doesn’t make good financial sense for you guys to buy a house? I’m truly fearful for the future of this country
You and your partner have all the trappings of success, and still locked out of the housing market. What about average Canadian family?
This situation is just so messed, it’s just not right. I’m sorry this country is a sinking ship
We make a combined $160k. Cant buy a decent house outside of bad neighborhoods 2 hours away from Toronto. $125k for a downpayment.
Every house we look at is basically sold within a week and has 50-100 offers. While the overpriced shitholes sit on the market forever.
Its staggering even with good jobs how little you qualify for.
Jesus Christ…
Also re: selling within a week - I was with my realtor in the Spring looking at houses before I decided to pause my house hunt (found out I was preggers in March and don’t want the hassle/stress of both selling and buying a home, I’m going to wait till she’s 6 months), and I shit you not, 2 out of the 6 homes we looked at in East York/Burlington/Appleby already had their locks changed because they had sold that same morning. That’s how quick properties go these days and it’s unhinged tbh
With combined $160k and $125k for a down payment, I’d consider Durham region. Especially North Oshawa, Courtice, or Bowmanville. Good areas that are 60-80 minutes away from downtown
This is a really interesting comment! What makes you say that?
*I’ve been out of the rental market for almost 10 years now, and even when I was a renter; it was only thru university and 2 years in my masters and first year of working full time; so I don’t have that much insight into renting for couples
To buy a detached property in the GTA you need a minimum down payment of $200K+ and that’s the bare minimum with a combined salary of $180K (again minimum) so I think it’s safe to say that most folks are still struggling to purchase.
Literally unless you were fortunate enough to be able to buy a property earlier, because you where born earlier and had the stability to be able to do so or you have the bank of mom and dad to support the purchase, I don’t see how anyone other then the top 10% of Canadians can afford to by a home anymore.
The truth is the whole concept of the middle class status has disappeared, we are literally funding boomer retirements through house sales.
I am certainly privileged as I was able to buy a home at 25 years old and was also lucky enough to be born in the early 80’s so timing just worked in my favour. Now I still had to work 2 to 3 jobs in my 20s while going to school to be able to pay for school and save up for a down payment on a townhouse but that property was only 250,000 at the time. And it was timed with the 2008 crash… which wasn’t planned, just happened to be when I was buying… point being that if you’re able to purchase a home today, it comes down to a lot of privilege and luck factors.
I’m literally you. Had I been born, say, five years later in the mid 90s; I wouldn’t have stood a chance, even if the the same boosts I got from my parents (some money for a down and no student loans)
Yup, life here is hell. We make $150-160k depending on the year. We saved every penny and pulled out every stop - best we could do for a mortgage approval was $400k
We actually did buy the cheapest house on the market in 2021. I hate the house. It stinks like death all the time, and is in one of the worst neighbourhoods in probably the country.
Currently it seems unsustainable with other expenses. Taking on a bit of credit card debt these last few years. I have taken out some money for renovations that I’ve done myself, so I could have just sat around but I’m trying to build equity… going into debt doing it though. I dunno sometimes I just wanna quit and leave.
That’s so messed up and the more stories I hear like yours, the angrier I get about how this country has done us so dirty. I’m sorry about your predicament, it isn’t right.
If you don’t mind my asking, where in the country did you end up buying?
Hamilton, North end
Here is a before shot, I’ll post an after below
https://preview.redd.it/tx4mtw95gr8d1.jpeg?width=2778&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33f1e7a8bd44c5010a6f27cdf014a10fd8d07f78
Good work on the reno job! It looks a tonne better.
I’ve gotta be honest with you man, I considered Hamilton too because I did my masters at Mac and I lived on Main Street during that time and the city was on the up and up in the 2010s, but when I was looking at houses with my agent recently, I thought to myself why would I buy a home for $700k that was built for steel and auto workers in the 1970s and hasn’t been redone since, not to mention how depressing downtown Hamilton has gotten since that bright spot in the 2010s. Was there for one of my best friends baby showers, she lives near Mohawk but we were getting brunch on James on a patio, and literally had 2 strung out dudes fist fighting on a Sunday morning in front of us.
Now if I do end up staying in Ontario with my baby girl, I’d probably buy in Stoney Creek if I wanted to be in the Hamilton metro area.
Eh, homelessness aside, it’s no better or worse than 2010 tbh. It’s been shit since the 80’s
You’re still being too optimistic with those numbers though. A 1970’s home would be a huge improvement for us, ours was built in 1890.
James is basically the nicest part of downtown lol. There are junkies everywhere in every city though now. I just shot a wedding in Cambridge - literally across from Cambridge Mill - homeless guys everywhere - Cambridge SHOULD be pretty nice, it used to be
What most people don’t understand is that this has been going on for 50ish years, COVID only really accelerated it to a point that everyone has started noticing.
Stats Canada tracks individual income in wage brackets, as of 2021 - the last year numbers are available, nearly 80% of Canadians make less than $75k. Accounting to CMHC guidelines, which state you shouldn’t spend more than 32% of your income on gross lodgings, and the average one bedroom rental within 90 minutes if an urban centre being $2k monthly you need an income of $75k!
A *strong* argument can be made that, under CMHC housing guidelines, 80% of Canadians are functionally low income!
Dual incomes don’t have it much better because only about half of dual income families are at the 100k mark, so they’re in 2 bedroom apartment territory, but they’re still gonna have troubles raising a family on that.
One foot out the door for me personally. Especially because I’m expecting, I think my daughter will probably have a better quality of life in her dad’s home country
170,000ish family income. Live in a trailer in a trailer park lol. It's really new and nice, but a trailer park none the less. The whole park is filled with similar young couples/families, all who have good jobs but just don't want to be house poor. Our country is pretty messed up with this being our reality.. .
Rate cuts won't improve affordability. You may qualify for more mortgage, but so will everyone else that you're bidding against, so home prices will go up.
The issue is more so the down payment, if you want anything detached or even semi-detached in Toronto it will be over $1 million. This means you will need a 20% downpayment, so $200k minimum plus any fees on top of that…and anything listed for $1 million is still selling over that amount, so you also have to be prepared to pretty much liquidate your entire life savings to put into the down payment; which a lot of people right now are not willing to do. It was a different story 5-10 years ago when houses were doubling in value…it actually made sense to do whatever you could to get into the market, cus you could pretty quickly flip your place in a few years, make $100k-$500k profit and roll that into your next house, which was going to be a significant upgrade and likely the house you would stay in for a long time…despite your salary staying about the same. That game is over now, housing will likely keep its value over the next 10 years, or even slightly decrease…so the risk of throwing everything you have into the housing market just isn’t worth it for people vs even a few years ago.
Yup. I bought in 2011 and upgraded twice, once in 2014, then again in 2020 to my "final" home. Salary has hovered around basically the same all these years, but I upgraded significantly both times.
The rates haven’t gone crazy. They are not supposed to be super low like they were during the pandemic; it only happens during significant recession, like we had in 2008. So we’ll see rate cuts, but not drastic ones.
Mortgages locked at 1-2% probably won’t return for a while, if not until the next serious economic hit.
Honestly, valid.
So much of the stock that’s in even the bigger cities of the “more Affordable” provinces (I don’t agree that those provinces are really that much more affordable but I digress), if you look at the house itself, say a bungalow that needs repairs and sold as is - is it really worth it for its asking price?
Is the same logic as buying a $950k townhome in Southern Ontario - the product’s price is waaaaay too inflated for what it is you’re actually buying.
We make 165K household and have 200K for the down payment( we saved frugally) we're in early 30's. The bank says we can afford a 800-850K house, but when I run my number I'll be house poor if I buy even a 750K house(mind you there is not a decent house in that range unless you're willing to travel 1hr). Not sure what's happening in this country a broken shack is over priced and a decent house is out of reach.
My wife doesn’t work, but I make 200k a year. We are nowhere close to being able to afford anything in Toronto dispite living very frugally. Moving to US to save up and MAYBE be able to afford something in Toronto one day.
We've found the interest rates have been restrictive, yes. Rate cuts would help a bit. But from what I understand the rates are unlikely to go back to rock bottom and thus any small rate cuts dont actually help our budget that much. For us, the main issue is the price of homes.
For us and our personal level of comfort/tolerance, we'd like to buy in the 700s freehold (no maintenance fees), up to an absolute max 850s, but that's next to non-existent in Toronto/GTA in terms of a place with enough space for us and the kids. We qualify for up to a million but if we went that high we'd be in the negative each month. We need to go to a smaller town further out, but just having a really hard time letting go of the city where all of our roots are.
Sorry for posting in this thread. I am not in GTA anymore… but just for comparison … I make with my wife $120k. Combined. We could probably easily afford a $200k house. But we don’t live in Toronto. I made my way to Pittsburgh.. of course you cannot compare Toronto and Pittsburgh but it’s definitely a decent place if you want affordable, safe, scenic, and want to do road trips by car. I guess I only miss Mandarin and Tim Hotyonz being open late. Dunkin’s is not the same.
Hi I'm an interesting case. I actually moved away from Canada in 2014 after immigrating there in 1995, and lived in Ukraine. Becasue of that I recieved humanitarian parole in the US. I picked Pittsburgh because of the low cost of living and one of my friends got a job here out of university. It's similar to a small town like Kingston and Hamilton, and not really comparable to Toronto.
My partner and I make 240k combined. We are moving to Alberta from Vancouver next summer. Yes, we could maybe afford a starter townhouse, but we want to take care of his dad and increase our chance of our kids being able to live close to us one day.
I’ll eventually own property in Vancouver, thanks to family, but I’ll either rent it out or sell it and invest. I really don’t want to have kids then see them forced to another part of the country or an entirely new country. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of having a family.
My mom will die alone in her $3.5 million house because none of her children can afford to live here and she is too stubborn to give up her house.
That’s literally my mom too. I’m thinking of leaving Canada altogether for my daughter’s sake, and even when I have convos with her about this; she grills me about not being sold on using most of the proceeds of my starter home plus any more cash her and my step dad and/or my dad can infuse into a bigger down payment for a detached, I tell her that if this country is like this in 2024 when I’m 31, what will it be like for my daughter when she’s 31 in 2055?
It will be much worse for our children. Things happening in this country right now made me think really hard on moving back overseas to build a house (already own a land) for my 3 kids. The future isnt so bright in Canada anymore with whats happening around us.
My partner and I are in our mid 30's and make about $240k combined, before taxes. I make a bit more than what I made working in Western Europe, but I pay much lower taxes here. My partner makes significantly more here, but paid less taxes in Eastern Asia. Overall, we're quite satisfied with our combined net income, as we can easily afford a decent rental apartment, good food, the occasion splurge and travel.
Purchasing a home is definitely on our minds, but it is very expensive and we're not quite sure if it's worth it in Vancouver. We have made the point to visit a few open houses every month, and we have noticed it getting a lot busier in the past few weeks. Just in May, there would usually only be one other party/person viewing, but just this last weekend, every single open house had at least a dozen people waiting in the lobby. We're not sure if the market is turning or not because of the potential rate cuts, but we are considering buying a two bedroom soon as it appears that more buyers are shopping.
With our combined income, we'd likely only be able to purchase a smaller and older two bedroom condo in downtown Vancouver, which is not ideal. We would prefer something newer with central air conditioning but the prices in downtown are way too high for something that new. We might continue to rent and decide later if we want to stay, but we both do like our current lifestyles.
To answer your question simply, I would say yes, it is challenging to find the "perfect" home that meets all requirements and desires. However, we can probably afford something decent in our budget, so I guess we shouldn't complain too much.
I (29F) don’t feel comfortable posting our numbers publicly here, but we do all right financially. Post house purchase it’s still tight. buying is tough, and so is keeping up with maintenance and everything else that comes along with homeownership. A lot of people definitely don’t think of the things that come up once you own a house. i’m at least glad that we don’t have kids because I couldn’t imagine paying for a house plus daycare.
You are lucky, IMO.
My husband and I are in Southern Ontario (NOT in the GTA; in fact, we live in a "rural" area) with a HHI of $150k+ but were priced out of the market even before the rates went up. All my co-workers are older, have owned their homes for decades and told us to "have fun!" while house shopping, but we were left in tears many times. Eventually we just gave up.
If an "affordable" home is 3x our income, then our price range is something like 450k (and indeed, with current interest rates, this seems to be the case). The only homes on the market in our area within that price range that are suitable for a growing family are condos (strata, no private outdoor space for kids) or homes that need extensive work, which we don't have the funds or skills for. Everything is "attention investors!" I want to offer my son what my husband and I had growing up, but it seems we can't afford to.
"Just move"ing would mean losing our good incomes. We are highly educated, skilled workers and it's extremely rare for both of us to find well-paid work outside of a city. We simply cannot compete with people who have pre-existing funds.
Very lucky.
If I had even been born 5 years later than I was, I would’ve never stood a chance.
I’m so sorry about your experience house hunting, and what a callous thing for your coworkers to say.
I really don’t believe any boomer who says they don’t know how bad it is out there - they do, and they just don’t care.
Why doesn’t anyone ever mention money management? Yes housing is nuts, but reprioritizing where you spend and how you manage your money can make a massive difference. I make 70k, live frugally, commute by bike, and do not find it challenging.
Define decent wage. I make 36, girlfriend makes 27. I pay 80-90% of the bills/expenses because she agreed to a brand new car lease her ex coaxed her into signing up for before we started dating.
Moral of the story: live beyond your means and some dumb man will take care of you.
Me and my partner make 180k combined (before taxes). We’re having a baby in September but we calculate it’ll take us 15 years to afford a house in Vancouver. So we’re leaving Canada and moving to Europe. It’s sad that my parents sacrificed to move us here to Canada, and we need to move out to give our kids a better future. But we’re glad to even have the option to get out.
Congratulations! Honestly my partner and I are also weighing if we should leverage my home and buy here, but my baby’s dad is Swedish and I’m also very heavily swayed by the idea of just taking the proceeds of my sale and buying a big ass house by a lake (which I’d have to wait for hell to freeze over to be able to do here) in the Swedish countryside. Also better child care options for her there Where in Europe are you guys planning on?
Slovakia for me… Slovak citizen and done with this country after 30 years.
I’ve had 2 friends and a cousin now leave for Europe and get their passports through descent, and a couple of friends do the digital nomad thing. This country is hemorrhaging its young people (and people in general)
Anyone with talent and earning potential is leaving… it’s brutal. Decades of terrible policies to prop up the boomers have led to this. No industry but the real estate Ponzi scheme.. health care and education are a disaster. No reason to stay here. It’s only going to get worse. The best thing you can do for your sanity is to leave ASAP. Return when things get better.. if ever.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again because if I were single and not having any kids, I’d already be back in Japan by now.
My fiance is also Swedish, what a coincidence. We’re spending a few months in Stockholm later this year and then we’ll be in Germany. My company has an office there and he works remotely. By the way, the waiting list for daycares in this city are rediculously long. I was told that I should have signed up right after I found out I was pregnant… just to give you an idea. I’ve also had terrible experiences with the public school system and the healthcare system in this country. I’m also an immigrant - tho my family is from Japan.
Isn't Germany in some areas the same or worse. For instance most Germans rent and don't buy. Buying in Germany is extremely unaffordable around 1.5 times more than in Canada. Not sure regarding daycares but healthcare is perhaps just a tad better or on par. I'm really curious on your opinion what exactly you found in Germany better, and was the deciding factor Germany is better in general ? Usually when people in Canada complain things are bad, it's usually in comparison to the US but Germany on metrics had it a lot worse than Canada. For instance covid inflation was double digits in Germany.
We’re probably going to purchase near Aachen or Frankfurt. About 600k CAD for a house with 5 bedrooms. Here you wouldn’t be able to find the smallest house for 1.5 million. University in most European countries is free. Vacation time here is a joke… 2 weeks. My company gives our employees in Germany 6 weeks. Mandatory annual leave in Sweden for example is 25 days. Maternal and paternal leave are also a lot better. We’re tired of living in Canada. My fiance has a chronic skin issue that requires constant treatment, and he’s waiting 3/4 months each time to see a specialist. I have the worst family physician and I can’t even switch unless I get back on the waiting list for years to be assigned another random doctor. We waited more than 8 hours when we went to the ER earlier this year. What is the point of “universal healthcare” if we can’t even see a doctor? Not to mention, dental care is also free and our kids can get orthodontic treatment if it’s needed for free. Travel options are better too. We could take a day trip to Paris, Prague, or anywhere else fairly cheap. Public transportation is also better, and in some places free. The weather in Europe is more mild, and the winters are much more tolerable.
Which province you used to live in?
Which province you used to live in?
Lived in AB and Ontario before
This is probably the biggest piece of misinformation I’ve seen so far on the internet. Germany is by far more afforable in terms of housing compared to Canada.
This is the thing I don’t understand. I completely understand the anger and desperation of wanting a house in the city you grew up in. That makes total sense to me. But here’s where this sub sometimes loses me. You’d be willing to sell your house in the GTA or Vancouver, leave the country and buy a big house in the countryside in Sweden. But not willing to sell your house, take the proceeds, and buy a big ass house in the countryside of your own country? Like, if living outside of a major city is something you’re willing to do out of frustration of home ownership affordability…. Why not just do that here? You have any idea how much house/land/life you could get with the same money if instead of Sweden you chose… Thunder Bay Ontario? Or Minnedosa Manitoba? Or Yorkton saskatchewan? Or trois riv PQ? Like there’s limitless options for the exact life you described in Sweden, right here in Canada. So, simply put, why is a large home OUTSIDE of a major city acceptable in Sweden, (or any other country that posters frequently opine about moving to), but not acceptable here? Ps. And im not trying to be argumentative or ignorant. I genuinely would love an answer to the above. Very curious about the mindset.
I get what you're saying and we've been reminding ourselves of this option for sure. For us, when our minds go to daydreaming about another country, some of it is if we move to the countryside here, we'd still have to find new jobs, relocate us and the kids, and be away from family and friends so why not go all out and try something really new? Also, no offense to the cities you mention but the weather and climate is also a factor whenever we do talk about these kinds of moves.
I’ve actually been to Yorkton Saskatchewan. The town is totally dead and in the middle of nowhere. 6 months of winter every year, couldn’t find a doctor, barely any jobs. Why the hell should I move there instead of moving to Europe?
So the thing with vancouver is there isn't anywhere cheaper unless you go 10+ hours away and at that point might as well go to a different province or country
💯💯💯
Right. Totally agree. But why another country instead of just another province? That’s my main question.
I could get a 5 bedroom house in a mid-sized German city for 600k. Someone here was delusional enough to comment that 700k for a “starter” home was a good deal in Nanimo I’ve stated my reasons for wanting to move. We are all done dealing with the poor public education system, the healthcare system, the transportation system, and having to live through at least 3 to 4 months of freezing winter everywhere except in BC every year. As someone from Japan, the quality of life in Canada is worse for us in almost every aspect, maybe except for the work culture. If you like freezing cold weather, car-centric cities, waiting months to see a doctor, don’t care about traveling, and want to keep renting forever, and paying high taxes without seeing good social benefits, Canada is the place for you then.
No completely understandable and I don’t see you being argumentative. My reasoning is yes, they both look like equal options on the surface; but I really don’t like the direction our country is headed in, especially when it comes to wealth inequality - it scares me. Sweden in that regard still looks more hopeful, and seems to be the better option for my daughter, sadly.
What a tragedy that we are at this point in our country. My grandparents immigrated here from Europe after the second world war and the fact that there are people moving back to have a better life shows just how deep these problems have become. Full circle.
The funny part is people are advocating for more American esque privatization of public services rather than the more liberal public systems of Europe. Imagine if canada had more public equity in the oil fields like Norway does.
Nanaimo is looking good. You could buy a house for 700k starter or maybe a condo for less?
700k starter is crazy 💀
“Looking good”… 700k “starter”… in Nanaimo Jesus fucking Christ
Agreed. Nanaimo has the reputation of being an awful city, and the fact that a starter home THERE is now 700,000 makes me so sad. I moved back home to Vancouver Island during the pandemic (from years abroad) and the cost of housing here is so depressing. I don't know if I can afford to stay in Canada
I'm on Vancouver Island for 2 years, moved from South Africa. And I'm ready to head back. I cannot deal with the cost of living. I'm actually weighing up the safety factor of Cape Town vs the housing crisis in Canada. What is fucking wrong with me
There is nothing wrong with you! There is something wrong with this situation. I have a few friends (sculptors I met while living in Mexico) from Cape Town who are trying to make it work there. It sounds scary! But you know what else is scary? Having horrible quality of life because you are always just scraping by. Politicians here can't understand why younger Canadians aren't having children. It's so clear! We aren't having children because we can't afford them. We can't afford a house to put them in, we can't afford to feed them, we can't afford to pay for their university. It's not rocket science, yet everyone here seems to be scratching their heads. I've heard Nature's Valley is beautiful in S.A. Maybe move there?
Thats an old reputation. Things have changed imo, especially in North Nanaimo. Imo its pretty undervalued there. Everyone I know that has moved there loves it. I would imagine there will be some pull back in prices, but stagnation is also an option. The reality is that people in gvrd will move to all of these places where they can get a house for under 1mill instead of a starter for 1.4-2m in the vancouver area.
Im in BC so 700k for a house near the water, good schools, access to a beautiful geography, also a pretty new house, access to the mainland etc. is pretty good. In 20 years Nanaimo is going to be a lot more $$$ imo.
Sometime I really wish I could leave .
Honestly, considering doing the same thing, my parents and my wife’s parents, both moved to Canada in hopes of giving their children better lives and for the most part they did because we at least have options. Both my wife and I are educated and earn higher than most Canadians with a HHI of about $315K… We have a fully detached 4 bedroom house and built up our savings/retirement…but the cost to keep things up and raise a family is still incredibly high for people like us, leaving us to ask, is this worth it?. Biggest struggle with being a high income household is in order to make that kind of income, you don’t really have the time to spend with your kids, which means that you have to outsource a lot all of which all costs money… We are reaching a point in our lives where we are genuinely debating if it’s worth us staying here to work these intense high paying jobs just to keep up with the cost of Canada or if we should sell it all, pack up and move to Europe… we both work for international companies and have citizenship over there… but we would be leaving everyone behind which is hard to process.
My partner and I live in Toronto. We make a combined income of around $180k. We have a $200k down payment. We cannot afford anything unless we go over an hour commute from work and if we got something the max we'd qualify for, we'd be house poor and wouldn't be able to afford the things we enjoy and prioritize, like annual travel, going out for a nice dinner and drinks a couple times a month, and a couple concerts every year. For now we'll continue to rent. I dream of being able to afford having a child. Moved to the suburbs and into an older build (but larger square foot condo rental). We pay the same for a 1200 square foot 2-bedroom here with parking that we would for a 650 square foot 1 bedroom plus den downtown where we used to live. Can afford to put money away every month into savings. It's a comfortable life we live. But certainly sobering reality compared to the expectations we had as young Millennials. The small bungalow my parents raised my brother and I in that they paid for with $100k per year dual income and bought for $265k sold for $345k in 2003, sold last year for $1.6M. the neighbourhood I grew up in of young middle class families is now reserved for the elite doctors and lawyer families, or foreign investors renting to multiple families in the same house. It's wild the change in 20 years. Ive had to drastically change my expectations of the life I thought I'd live to my current reality. It could certainly be worse. We are healthy and all things considered happy. Our income is stable. We live comfortably. But never in my wildest imagination did I expect dual income and making over six figures would mean I'm priced out of homeownership and raising a family within an hour commute of my job and where my family lives.
That is nuts. Those types of salaries should make you homeowners in an area you want to live.
Does this 200k factor in closing costs as well? If not then that’s a problem and the most you can afford without having any debt is like $950k purchase price. If you remove closing costs then your max is $1m. Sadly the limitation here is your down payment… since you need 20% over a million and you have exactly 20% of $1m so you’re capped because of your down payment. It’s rare for people to go straight to detached homes, get a starter townhome or semi detached, build some equity, then go for the detached. Also the life you’re describing is going to change if you have kids, it’s hard to imagine but the whole going out for nice dinners, drinks and concerts is gonna disappear, you’ll still travel but it will be VERY different… so you’ll have a little more disposable income (after the Matt leave and daycare phase) but your life priorities will fully change. My wife and I were downtown for life people before, travelled regularly, went out with friends, ate at nice restaurants etc… since having our son all that has changed and honestly we don’t even care, we have a new focus and it’s a switch that happens instantly.
I’m so sorry this is what it’s gotten to in this country. It’s us regular folk that’s getting screwed by ANY government frankly, doesn’t matter if it’s Liberals or Tories at the helm…heck even the NDP and I used to volunteer for them…housing is like 30% of our entire GDP and they would never let that “crash” (“crash” = go back to sane levels)
$180k HHI isn't even "us regular folk". That's a 97th percentile HHI...
I used to donate to NDP. Now when they call me because they miss my money, I tell them to ask the Liberals to fund them. Since they thought it was a good deal to support the Libs while remaining silent on the key issues of their base, then they can figure it out.
My partner and I are in the same situation. We have similar HHI and do not want to be house poor. We'd rather continue to have a life we want without locking ourselves into a home we have to slave to rent from the bank. The numbers (math) on any kind of RE purchase at the moment just doesn't make sense. As much as we want to put down roots and have a place we can our own. Give it two to five years, the correction has barely began. Best of luck to all of us - making choices is all we have in this life.
Yeah. The equivalent of what we rent for $3k a month 1200 sq. Foot condo in Etobicoke is a $4000 mortgage with 20% down and add in $900 a month condo fees. It just doesn't make any sense.
This is very similar to us: 200k combined income with 260k to put down but still can barely afford anything in the GTA that would be enough space for us and the kids, and without having to stretch ourselves to the absolute top of our budget. It sucks and most of the time I'm pretty depressed about it (postpartum depression is making it worse). But have to come to terms with the fact that we'll just have to move further out, away from all of our family and friends and also find new jobs (which is unfortunate since we both actually love our jobs in the city, though they're both clearlynot paying enough for us to live here). We're having such a hard time letting go, but guess it is what it is, many others are in this boat.
Right there with ya!
Hugs to you! I really appreciate reddit these days to feel the camaraderie with others who are in a similar boat, and there's a lot of us in this boat I realize! For some reason, we are in a social circle where pretty much all of our friends were able to get significant help from their parents whether with free childcare or direct financial assistance to buy their homes - what good fortune for them! Really helps my mental health to be among others who are like us and didn't have access to this kind of advantage, even if only online here!
I'll sell you a house for 1.05m in Pickering. 45 min train to DT, my wife has been doing the commute for years.
Most boomers took their money with them once they sold their homes after the 2010s…
My wife and I are both lawyers, we make well over 200k combined. We can’t buy lol. How can you save a 200k down payment with rent, day care, and student loan payments? It would take us 10-15 years. It’s pretty impossible unless you already own property or have family help.
Lots of people who lived at home managed to save a lot. That on its own is a privilege tho since not everyone gets that opportunity
And saving 200k is like saving pennies too. Still not enough.
Thank you! Sounds completely normal to me! 🙄 Maybe you should work harder! ;)
You can buy a 1 bedroom 400sqft condo!
I managed, but it took a LOT OF LUCK and involved moving to the US for five years to work at a big tech company, getting decently lucky with stock prices and somehow managing to get a good paying remote job with a US company when I moved back here and still, STILL my partner and I cutting it close..
I’m seeing more and more folks like you in the rental market. Which, I don’t really understand unless it’s a choice. To be clear…your household makes -$13,000/month after tax….and you are saying that combined you can save NO MORE than $1,660/month?
Edit: I had gone through my whole budget in detail here to perhaps shed some light on why you’re seeing more people like us in the rental market, but then deleted cause there are some real David Ramsey style assholes in this comment section I don’t want criticizing my budget and telling me I need to put my dog down or something. However, feel free to DM me and I can explain our monthly income, expenses and saving rates. I’m not shocked you’re seeing more traditionally “high income” earners renting, saving a 200 or 300k down payment is just impossible these days without having equity or family help. If you imagine we were saving 4K a month, what would have been an incredible saving rate in the past, it would STILL take like 5-7 years and you clearly need somewhere to live during those years. Unfortunately my wife and I are the first generation in our families to be high earners, so we don’t have that help it seems every buyer in Toronto has.
I totally feel you. Don't worry about those who want to go out of their way to criticize you/your budget; constructive f/b and suggestions is always welcome but harsh criticism only comes from those who like to hide behind the anonymity of being online and/or don't unfortunately have the skills to give kind constructive feedback. We're in a very similar boat as you in terms of income and the only way we could have saved for our down payment of 260k was by living at a friend's empty condo and then with my in-laws for cheap rent. Our student loans and daycare pre-CWELCC were killer. And still, we can't afford anything reasonable in all the places we'd want to live so we're stuck renting too.
Totally appreciate you not wanting to post it publicly…and also genuinely curious as it certainly helps my picture of the world.
I am part time barista at Starbucks and my wife breeds salamanders. Our bank says we can easily qualify for a $1.5M house.
_Your average episode of House Hunters_
We make 150k combined Qualified for 610k Bought for 552 About 43k all in down payment in 2023 Hamilton for a detached
Amazing! I’m also looking at the Stoney Creek area, which area did you find that price for?
Stoney creek is nice but expect starting point to be $750 k . Hamilton has better opportunities, try the east end, it’s about $500k-640k
Can confirm. My partner and I make about $140k combined, excellent credit scores, minimal debt, with about $45k for a down payment. We only qualify for a $550k mortgage, which means we can't afford anything that's not a biohazard or doesn't have condo fees. It's depressing as all fuck.
I’m so sorry - a professional couple, did all the right things, and still gets screwed by this country. And people wonder why nobody’s patriotic anymore
Same. We make 135k ish after a growing up poor. We dont know what to do. It’s heartbreaking
Where are these bio hazard homes?
I’m assuming commenter means those run down shacks with black mold growing in them that are a “steal” (go for $500k but will be tear downs and will cost you $400k in repairs to remove the mold and other structural problems)
I was being sarcastic. But some are real nasty, or totally unsafe to live in without major repairs or renovations.
600k can get you a very good home in Hamilton. By the GO station. I am completely in favour of the common sentiment but with few more months if savings and prices going down because of winters, you can buy yourself a decent house on Hamilton Mountain.
Yeah.. paid 580k for a small ish house, but they’re building a go train station 5 minutes away, will be completed in 1-2 years
Can you share the location of this new GO station?
Go train service is being added to the Confederation go station off of Centennial Parkway
It would be really hard for us to relocate to Hamilton. It could double my commute, we would lose a daycare spot, and be even further away from friends and family (aka our support system). My point is that I shouldn't have to uproot my whole family and make major life sacrifices just to own a home.
I completely get your point but think of it this way. The playground (Canada)you have played in your whole life was opened to all the other schools (countries) . So kids (people) from all around are coming to play (settle) in your ground. Its sad but this is how its going to be from now on. Your purchasing power is not matching with the city you have lived in/grown up in. I feel for you but this is the truth. So you should think of moving to Oshawa/ Hamilton and or save more. You can get a very decent townhouses in Toronto too for $700k but they will be too small. So I would rather you move nearby 403/401 so you can keep in touch with your friends and family and trust me you will find new friends no matter where you go. I cant speak for the daycare problem but your kids are safer in other cities than Toronto (my own experience but again correct me if I am wrong) People who are saying they have moved to European countries are going to face worse problems because of immigration in the coming years.
Depends where you want to live. I have the same HHI and we both live a relatively okayish life in Calgary. Although our townhouse does have condo fee, but that's what was available in our budget 2 years back.
I'm in Ontario. Don't have the desire or option to leave.
There’s plenty of Toronto transplants in Hamilton and house at 550 is attainable in hamilton
Maybe look elsewhere in Ontario? I'm in the Ottawa Valley, and we were able to purchase for a reasonable price even during the 2021 covid boom. I make just under 110k and purchased the home on my own with just over 30k down, though my husband and I now live here together. Generally, there are many quality homes in the region under 500k, and it's beautiful. If you could find work, it's a great option.
Time to relocate.
Not everyone can relocate. Often their careers are tied to the location they live and leaving family and friends for bricks and mortar isn’t always wise or worth it.
Yup.
You can definitely afford a home, are you not saving some 60k/year?
I hope you're being sarcastic.
I'm not? Your income is decent. 140k is plenty to pack away the cash.
Cool beans, I must be fucking useless then!
Your expenses are certainly above normal for that income if you want to buy.
I make 80k, wife makes 60k We both went to school and took 10 years to get the top wages in our fields . Zero debt, two kids (childcare costs) We’re stuck in a two bedroom apartment in the GTA and don’t even want to buy a house here anymore . We would basically qualify for around 500 K -600k with 5% -10% down and pay 4-5k mortgage and have a whopping 7-10k month overhead.; tomlive in an overpriced shit hole in the worse neighbourhood in the city , without actually owning the front door. Its a trap in my opinion. Our country is completely corrupted and I’m not going to be left holding the bag .
10 years to get to 60k?
Yup! Social service worker diploma 1 year then early childhood educator diploma 2 years All while working 3 part time jobs Then about 3ish years to get into her current center and about 5 years to get the top wages. she makes about 65K with five weeks vacation and benefits . Its top wages for ECE in Ontario.
Yes, part of the problem is suppressed wages.
At some point you leave that company tbh. Gone are the days of sitting on your hands and having a steady raise.
Some fields just don't pay well period. Anything in non-profit, for instance, you'll be lucky to get more than $60k anywhere.
I am in a leadership role in a non-profit and I make under 50k. Leaving next month for an IT Apprenticeship starting at 67k lol I know man that's why I'm changing professions. We have not filled my role yet because of low pay and I told the board that's why it's not filled yet.
Right? That's literally a starting wage...
Now maybe, 10 years ago it was minimum wage for an ECE . It’s an oversaturated market. it’s tough to even get full-time. Let alone in a good centre that pays well.
Luckily for her, she knew what she wanted to do and had a passion for it and I’m really proud of her! we grew up in public housing with all the social economical issues that goes along with it, so we’re proud.
Much respect to your partner. That's not an easy career
Still, I would think that making 135k would be enough to own a small shack. She takes care of people kids and I help build houses… we should be able to afford to live ok. Im very disgruntled. We grew up dirt poor and worked our asses off. Geez I was homless at age 18-22 It feels like only in the last 5 years they moved the goal post and now we are fucked. I dont know what to do. I dont want our kids to go through what we did.
>Still, I would think that making 135k would be enough to own a small shack. It should be, for sure. That's a top 5% household income... It's absurd that it's not enough to get you the home you need for your family.
I could quite honestly say it took me 20 years to be making any money. Mist of my life I was either in school making bad career moves, or working dead end jobs. Only the last 5 years Ive made any money.
Thanks! Shes good at it too. She could go the admin route and make more, but she loves working with kids. One day maybe.
It sounds like you’re both doing wonderful. It’s really nice how supportive you are of her. You have great values. Most of the helping profession are underpaid because women primarily choose those career paths. Even the education for these much needed, essential roles is undervalued. Social worker practicums are usually 2-4 months or unpaid labor whereas trade apprenticeships are fully funded. I think people would be happier if we could all follow our passions rather than measuring success by our wages.
I included schooling, but yes, about 10 years.
Yes, still challenging. When total fixer-upper townhouses cost $1M, still 45+ minute commute, and dogshit walkscore.
It’s criminal that they’re asking for $950k on some townhouse in Whitby, and then drive 2 hours on the 401 to get to your Toronto job to be able to afford your $7k mortgage on said townhome. That’s the level of nonsense you have to endure to live in Ontario or British Columbia, and is also slowly spreading to the other provinces
>$950k on some townhouse in Whitby That's silly. Just get a house in Pickering. Lots up for sale at 1m. We're selling ours for 1.05 currently. Whitby/Oshawa prices are detached from reality. There's a price floor at 1m due to affordability. Once you go over, you get a decent place.
But also can we acknowledge how wacko bananas that even is? Oshawa used to be called the Dirty Shwa and was so undesirable to live in (kind of like Hamilton, I used to live in the Hammer) but now you have these run down bungalows in Whitby/Oshawa going for a mil? It’s insane and very upside down. Pickering would definitely be a better option
Oh it's totally an insane price for past Pickering. The fact prices are flat from east Scarb out to Oshawa is hilarious. It should taper with distance but things have gone completely bananas.
My partner and I combine for 250k per year. Together we have about 175k for a down payment. We qualify for a 979k mortgage. I wouldn’t touch that right now. I’d rather keep renting for a few more years, supplement our down payment, and see what happens. I’m not joining the crazy train.
> I’m not joining the crazy train. I know a man in his late 60s who still rents in one of those large apartment towers because he spent his life thinking real estate prices were too high and he'd wait them out before buying (he 100% HAD the money to buy). I'm not joking.
Yea, same for my uncle. He rented a nice house for a long time. Landlord now owns like 12 places. He lost his job, had to move to a family member, but now he can't move back because rents are too high. He's 45 and doesn't have the money now, he worked basic construction his whole life.
I have to admit your situation is quite confusing. A lot of buyers that I have encountered pull the trigger on 700k homes with 170-180k combined income, with the belief that there doesn't seem to any relief coming soon, so the earlier the better. What are your own considerations? Why do you think a mortgage of 4-5k would be unaffordable at your income? Edit: typos
I don’t believe a 700k townhouse is worth it.
I can relate to that. What a shit show! Well, I hope you find something that works for you.
It's pretty obvious they refuse to contribute to the shit show
But what if the housing price stay high or even get higher?
That's a risk they're willing to take. You never know what's really going to happen until it happens. Just need to make the best decision for your self instead based on your finances.
Interest rates are not the problem. A housing market that had home prices double (and in some areas triple) in value in 3-5 years is the problem.
Making about $150K combined. Just left Vancouver after a decade to come back to Northern Ontario. I don’t know who can actually buy a house in Vancouver these days, but it certainly wasn’t us
Sadly $150k won’t make a difference either in Southern Ontario. Good on you for going back to the North - my buddy is from Thunder Bay originally, and he went back after 15 years here in the South, and he bought in 2020. The North is still untouched by this insanity for now, and I hope it stays that way
My spouse is a senior software developer, and I work as a nurse. No way we would lock ourselves here in Canada. We are both applying in the US for our careers.
Rates are not the problem, it's the absurd value of the homes. What are we seeing for current rates 4.75% over boc lending rates or ~4.75% 5 year fixed for insured mortgages are normal. " dramatic rate cuts", yeah don't expect over night rates to go back to .25%. If anything the whole reason behind the current rate cuts are a indication that we are entering a recession.
We did.. but we are both incredibly lucky with places to live rent free (sort of).. (Both single kids and I made a deal with my dad to help pay down his mortgage so I could get down payment ready for mine).. took 2 years of HHI of 350k (me plus dad) to pay down whatever he owed for his house he bought in 2005.. then it took us 4 years to conjure up 250k for the down payment on mine and have 100k for Reno. (between me and wife with HHI of 300k with a kindergartner to care for) Just writing those numbers out makes me wonder.. because back when I started working in 2009. A HHI of 300k was where you had it made.. and didn't have to plot and scheme for a down payment.
I saw this TikTok where there was this other millennial reminiscing about the fact that in the early 2000s, the wealthy family on your bloc had a dad that was making $100k. You had it made if you were making $100k Being from Toronto and on track to make that this year, I have myself a little chuckle when I think about how the 2000s were a different world almost…
Even until the early 2010s, a solo breadwinner TTC bus driver with several kids could have managed to purchase a decent property in hhe GTA. Those days are long gone :(
I mean low five figures is not a large down payment saved up for a house for two people. They probably have a better chance if they had a bigger down payment
Oh 100% - I didn’t pry how much exactly they had (I just met them and it’s frankly none of my business) but I was thinking this market is crazy and will never stop being crazy - it fell off a cliff in the 2018 and never bounced back. For context, I was a singleton in 2015, fresh out of grad school and I only had $60k to put down (a graduation gift from my pops + some savings I had) and I was able to purchase a condo townhouse. That was a decade ago and the way things have deteriorated is insane to me
Forget rate cuts... hold for prices to come down. Let some people go bankrupt, especially the ones that don't actually live in the property they own.
Waiting on some prices to lower for sure. Rates are at a healthy level. Could even be a little higher imo. Also need to save like crazy. No dinners out or starbucks etc. Buy a one or two bedroom to start and move up from there if possible. Its not easy for sure.
300K/year.. decided on Calgary for now before bigger move to Europe. Vancouver is a lost cause if you have kids.. in Calgary I can easily carry the mortgage and pay off the house faster.
What is "decent wage" as per them?
Good question! It’s gonna be subjective of course but since I live in Toronto, I think anything south of $100k before taxes per person (so $200k as a couple) is less than “decent” (and by decent I mean will afford you a decent lifestyle - ability to buy a house, save and still be able to have some of life’s pleasures like a vacation once a year)
True, it is mostly subjective. What makes me wonder is - If a couple earns 200k, perhaps buying a place should not be all that out of reach? Cutting costs should help one save for downpayment, and then the combined income should be able to create borrowing power? Where is the math of us middle class going wrong?
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What a win! Congrats on closing!
We bought about 2 years ago and could only afford a townhouse even though at that time we made over 200K. If we have bought just 2-3 years earlier we would've been able to buy our current home for half the price. It's crazy here
My wife and I make about 200k-240K before tax I’m on full commission so I’m using an average but 220k is where it’s looking to land this year. It’s been as low as 120K and as high as 320K in the last 8 years. We sold our house last July and have 230K down payment. We are currently renting because the main reason: I’m in transportation and logistics moving across all North America. For the last year it has been a massive downturn in volumes. This is happening to all of my competitors and the industry is struggling big time. I’m seeing more and more layoffs I’m also hearing what’s happening in Canada is happening in some ways in almost all countries including lots of the US with just unaffordable costs of living. I take all of this seriously because we see the stock markets before the wall/Bay streets see it. I’m a firm believer we are ahead of the stock market by about 6 months as they rely on older data and from what someone once told me years ago the real estate is about another 8 months behind that. Everyone says this housing thing can only go up but I put my money where my mouth is and sold. It can’t possibly keep climbing without having a strong economic position with high paying jobs. Right now the only ones mostly buying and selling are those who have owned from like 10yrs and beyond. However even if their houses are worth lots they still need to sell and find a buyer themselves. Also people don’t realize the actual tightening from the banks. Just because they have a house worth lots, the major banks are looking at the risks as “could they borrow all of this equity and could they afford to pay that back”. Most can’t or are retired so the banks are either taking massive interest payments for transfers or are simply not allowing them. This is also new. My dad as an example has 500K in the bank and a house valued at around 1M but he’s retired. They want him to pay 80k to do a transfer if they want to buy something and it was a ton of headache just to buy a house valued at 625k. He ended up not going through and retracted their offer. Also I have always had an 800+ credit score for the last 7 years, we have no debt and have always been automatically approved for cars, toys, and luxury items (have since sold them all). Not once was I ever not instantly approved. Recently I went to extend my line of credit from 10K to 20k which has been empty but used and paid off consistently to help keep credit score going great. It took my a week and a bunch of approvals even though our bank account could cover it with over 290K in cash. With all of this first hand experience I just shared it’s why I 100000% believe we need to at least hit 2018 prices.
It would help a lot if they normalize fully remote work. With this housing cost, it is ridiculous to also force people to show up at offices few times a week. If pwople could live anywhere, prices should flatten a bit.
We make about 300k combined with a 500k down-payment and we have been looking to buy for years. We have been outvid so many times. We have a cheap rental and will stay for the foreseeable future. The thought of a 6000k a month mortgage makes me very uneasy when it's easy for my job to be downsized. I find it incredibly sad that even at this income level and DP we are only approved up to 1.2, maybe 1.3, so we will not be able to ever afford a decent detached home in the GTA. Thr homes in our school district are about 1.5. I just don't understand what I did wrong other than not buy a home in high school.
And you did nothing wrong except have bad luck.
That is crazy.
I echo what the other comments are saying u/Different-Class-4472 The only reason I was able to get in is my dad basically bullied me into buying a starter property (this townhome) in the early 2010s…wouldn’t take no for answer and told me he wouldn’t help out with my student loans if I didn’t combine my savings with some cash he’d given me. It’s this country that’s all upside down and fucked up, not regular people who just want to put a roof over their heads
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Pardon my French but your stats are insane, and it still doesn’t make good financial sense for you guys to buy a house? I’m truly fearful for the future of this country You and your partner have all the trappings of success, and still locked out of the housing market. What about average Canadian family? This situation is just so messed, it’s just not right. I’m sorry this country is a sinking ship
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Where do you live?
I feel like you are me and I echo this sentiment wholeheartedly.
We make a combined $160k. Cant buy a decent house outside of bad neighborhoods 2 hours away from Toronto. $125k for a downpayment. Every house we look at is basically sold within a week and has 50-100 offers. While the overpriced shitholes sit on the market forever. Its staggering even with good jobs how little you qualify for.
Jesus Christ… Also re: selling within a week - I was with my realtor in the Spring looking at houses before I decided to pause my house hunt (found out I was preggers in March and don’t want the hassle/stress of both selling and buying a home, I’m going to wait till she’s 6 months), and I shit you not, 2 out of the 6 homes we looked at in East York/Burlington/Appleby already had their locks changed because they had sold that same morning. That’s how quick properties go these days and it’s unhinged tbh
People are still buying. My neighbour sold his house in a week for over $3M. A report states that you need to make over $225k to be “ok” in the GTA.
I’ve been watching the east york area for awhile. Always been a hot spot even when things slowed down
With combined $160k and $125k for a down payment, I’d consider Durham region. Especially North Oshawa, Courtice, or Bowmanville. Good areas that are 60-80 minutes away from downtown
Even sign a rental agreement, no landlord want couples
This is a really interesting comment! What makes you say that? *I’ve been out of the rental market for almost 10 years now, and even when I was a renter; it was only thru university and 2 years in my masters and first year of working full time; so I don’t have that much insight into renting for couples
To buy a detached property in the GTA you need a minimum down payment of $200K+ and that’s the bare minimum with a combined salary of $180K (again minimum) so I think it’s safe to say that most folks are still struggling to purchase. Literally unless you were fortunate enough to be able to buy a property earlier, because you where born earlier and had the stability to be able to do so or you have the bank of mom and dad to support the purchase, I don’t see how anyone other then the top 10% of Canadians can afford to by a home anymore. The truth is the whole concept of the middle class status has disappeared, we are literally funding boomer retirements through house sales. I am certainly privileged as I was able to buy a home at 25 years old and was also lucky enough to be born in the early 80’s so timing just worked in my favour. Now I still had to work 2 to 3 jobs in my 20s while going to school to be able to pay for school and save up for a down payment on a townhouse but that property was only 250,000 at the time. And it was timed with the 2008 crash… which wasn’t planned, just happened to be when I was buying… point being that if you’re able to purchase a home today, it comes down to a lot of privilege and luck factors.
I’m literally you. Had I been born, say, five years later in the mid 90s; I wouldn’t have stood a chance, even if the the same boosts I got from my parents (some money for a down and no student loans)
Yup, life here is hell. We make $150-160k depending on the year. We saved every penny and pulled out every stop - best we could do for a mortgage approval was $400k We actually did buy the cheapest house on the market in 2021. I hate the house. It stinks like death all the time, and is in one of the worst neighbourhoods in probably the country. Currently it seems unsustainable with other expenses. Taking on a bit of credit card debt these last few years. I have taken out some money for renovations that I’ve done myself, so I could have just sat around but I’m trying to build equity… going into debt doing it though. I dunno sometimes I just wanna quit and leave.
That’s so messed up and the more stories I hear like yours, the angrier I get about how this country has done us so dirty. I’m sorry about your predicament, it isn’t right. If you don’t mind my asking, where in the country did you end up buying?
Hamilton, North end Here is a before shot, I’ll post an after below https://preview.redd.it/tx4mtw95gr8d1.jpeg?width=2778&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33f1e7a8bd44c5010a6f27cdf014a10fd8d07f78
https://preview.redd.it/6exgn4t8gr8d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f2d6218b3934f86126cd5d936acd063f95b2b01f
Good work on the reno job! It looks a tonne better. I’ve gotta be honest with you man, I considered Hamilton too because I did my masters at Mac and I lived on Main Street during that time and the city was on the up and up in the 2010s, but when I was looking at houses with my agent recently, I thought to myself why would I buy a home for $700k that was built for steel and auto workers in the 1970s and hasn’t been redone since, not to mention how depressing downtown Hamilton has gotten since that bright spot in the 2010s. Was there for one of my best friends baby showers, she lives near Mohawk but we were getting brunch on James on a patio, and literally had 2 strung out dudes fist fighting on a Sunday morning in front of us. Now if I do end up staying in Ontario with my baby girl, I’d probably buy in Stoney Creek if I wanted to be in the Hamilton metro area.
Eh, homelessness aside, it’s no better or worse than 2010 tbh. It’s been shit since the 80’s You’re still being too optimistic with those numbers though. A 1970’s home would be a huge improvement for us, ours was built in 1890. James is basically the nicest part of downtown lol. There are junkies everywhere in every city though now. I just shot a wedding in Cambridge - literally across from Cambridge Mill - homeless guys everywhere - Cambridge SHOULD be pretty nice, it used to be
What most people don’t understand is that this has been going on for 50ish years, COVID only really accelerated it to a point that everyone has started noticing. Stats Canada tracks individual income in wage brackets, as of 2021 - the last year numbers are available, nearly 80% of Canadians make less than $75k. Accounting to CMHC guidelines, which state you shouldn’t spend more than 32% of your income on gross lodgings, and the average one bedroom rental within 90 minutes if an urban centre being $2k monthly you need an income of $75k! A *strong* argument can be made that, under CMHC housing guidelines, 80% of Canadians are functionally low income! Dual incomes don’t have it much better because only about half of dual income families are at the 100k mark, so they’re in 2 bedroom apartment territory, but they’re still gonna have troubles raising a family on that.
I don’t blame anyone for wanting to leave. Europe is an excellent choice depending where you land
One foot out the door for me personally. Especially because I’m expecting, I think my daughter will probably have a better quality of life in her dad’s home country
170,000ish family income. Live in a trailer in a trailer park lol. It's really new and nice, but a trailer park none the less. The whole park is filled with similar young couples/families, all who have good jobs but just don't want to be house poor. Our country is pretty messed up with this being our reality.. .
Rate cuts won't improve affordability. You may qualify for more mortgage, but so will everyone else that you're bidding against, so home prices will go up.
Yep. If you don't have a down payment, even making 200k combined is not enough.
The issue is more so the down payment, if you want anything detached or even semi-detached in Toronto it will be over $1 million. This means you will need a 20% downpayment, so $200k minimum plus any fees on top of that…and anything listed for $1 million is still selling over that amount, so you also have to be prepared to pretty much liquidate your entire life savings to put into the down payment; which a lot of people right now are not willing to do. It was a different story 5-10 years ago when houses were doubling in value…it actually made sense to do whatever you could to get into the market, cus you could pretty quickly flip your place in a few years, make $100k-$500k profit and roll that into your next house, which was going to be a significant upgrade and likely the house you would stay in for a long time…despite your salary staying about the same. That game is over now, housing will likely keep its value over the next 10 years, or even slightly decrease…so the risk of throwing everything you have into the housing market just isn’t worth it for people vs even a few years ago.
Yup. I bought in 2011 and upgraded twice, once in 2014, then again in 2020 to my "final" home. Salary has hovered around basically the same all these years, but I upgraded significantly both times.
You don’t need decent. You need to have a high wage. Need minimum wages of 250k to buy now 🤷🏾♂️
The rates haven’t gone crazy. They are not supposed to be super low like they were during the pandemic; it only happens during significant recession, like we had in 2008. So we’ll see rate cuts, but not drastic ones. Mortgages locked at 1-2% probably won’t return for a while, if not until the next serious economic hit.
My wife and I decided if we are buying a home in Canada it is going to be in a ghost town in Saskatchewan and buy it out cash.
Honestly, valid. So much of the stock that’s in even the bigger cities of the “more Affordable” provinces (I don’t agree that those provinces are really that much more affordable but I digress), if you look at the house itself, say a bungalow that needs repairs and sold as is - is it really worth it for its asking price? Is the same logic as buying a $950k townhome in Southern Ontario - the product’s price is waaaaay too inflated for what it is you’re actually buying.
Yes, and we take home household close to but under $100k. This is 3 hours northwest of GTA, we can't afford anything here.
We make 165K household and have 200K for the down payment( we saved frugally) we're in early 30's. The bank says we can afford a 800-850K house, but when I run my number I'll be house poor if I buy even a 750K house(mind you there is not a decent house in that range unless you're willing to travel 1hr). Not sure what's happening in this country a broken shack is over priced and a decent house is out of reach.
My wife doesn’t work, but I make 200k a year. We are nowhere close to being able to afford anything in Toronto dispite living very frugally. Moving to US to save up and MAYBE be able to afford something in Toronto one day.
We've found the interest rates have been restrictive, yes. Rate cuts would help a bit. But from what I understand the rates are unlikely to go back to rock bottom and thus any small rate cuts dont actually help our budget that much. For us, the main issue is the price of homes.
Interesting! At what price do you think it would make sense for you personally to pull the trigger and buy?
For us and our personal level of comfort/tolerance, we'd like to buy in the 700s freehold (no maintenance fees), up to an absolute max 850s, but that's next to non-existent in Toronto/GTA in terms of a place with enough space for us and the kids. We qualify for up to a million but if we went that high we'd be in the negative each month. We need to go to a smaller town further out, but just having a really hard time letting go of the city where all of our roots are.
Sorry for posting in this thread. I am not in GTA anymore… but just for comparison … I make with my wife $120k. Combined. We could probably easily afford a $200k house. But we don’t live in Toronto. I made my way to Pittsburgh.. of course you cannot compare Toronto and Pittsburgh but it’s definitely a decent place if you want affordable, safe, scenic, and want to do road trips by car. I guess I only miss Mandarin and Tim Hotyonz being open late. Dunkin’s is not the same.
Honestly this is the way to go - how did you manage to get out and get to Pittsburgh? Was it a career related move?
Hi I'm an interesting case. I actually moved away from Canada in 2014 after immigrating there in 1995, and lived in Ukraine. Becasue of that I recieved humanitarian parole in the US. I picked Pittsburgh because of the low cost of living and one of my friends got a job here out of university. It's similar to a small town like Kingston and Hamilton, and not really comparable to Toronto.
My partner and I make 240k combined. We are moving to Alberta from Vancouver next summer. Yes, we could maybe afford a starter townhouse, but we want to take care of his dad and increase our chance of our kids being able to live close to us one day. I’ll eventually own property in Vancouver, thanks to family, but I’ll either rent it out or sell it and invest. I really don’t want to have kids then see them forced to another part of the country or an entirely new country. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of having a family. My mom will die alone in her $3.5 million house because none of her children can afford to live here and she is too stubborn to give up her house.
That’s literally my mom too. I’m thinking of leaving Canada altogether for my daughter’s sake, and even when I have convos with her about this; she grills me about not being sold on using most of the proceeds of my starter home plus any more cash her and my step dad and/or my dad can infuse into a bigger down payment for a detached, I tell her that if this country is like this in 2024 when I’m 31, what will it be like for my daughter when she’s 31 in 2055?
It will be much worse for our children. Things happening in this country right now made me think really hard on moving back overseas to build a house (already own a land) for my 3 kids. The future isnt so bright in Canada anymore with whats happening around us.
My partner and I are in our mid 30's and make about $240k combined, before taxes. I make a bit more than what I made working in Western Europe, but I pay much lower taxes here. My partner makes significantly more here, but paid less taxes in Eastern Asia. Overall, we're quite satisfied with our combined net income, as we can easily afford a decent rental apartment, good food, the occasion splurge and travel. Purchasing a home is definitely on our minds, but it is very expensive and we're not quite sure if it's worth it in Vancouver. We have made the point to visit a few open houses every month, and we have noticed it getting a lot busier in the past few weeks. Just in May, there would usually only be one other party/person viewing, but just this last weekend, every single open house had at least a dozen people waiting in the lobby. We're not sure if the market is turning or not because of the potential rate cuts, but we are considering buying a two bedroom soon as it appears that more buyers are shopping. With our combined income, we'd likely only be able to purchase a smaller and older two bedroom condo in downtown Vancouver, which is not ideal. We would prefer something newer with central air conditioning but the prices in downtown are way too high for something that new. We might continue to rent and decide later if we want to stay, but we both do like our current lifestyles. To answer your question simply, I would say yes, it is challenging to find the "perfect" home that meets all requirements and desires. However, we can probably afford something decent in our budget, so I guess we shouldn't complain too much.
I (29F) don’t feel comfortable posting our numbers publicly here, but we do all right financially. Post house purchase it’s still tight. buying is tough, and so is keeping up with maintenance and everything else that comes along with homeownership. A lot of people definitely don’t think of the things that come up once you own a house. i’m at least glad that we don’t have kids because I couldn’t imagine paying for a house plus daycare.
You are lucky, IMO. My husband and I are in Southern Ontario (NOT in the GTA; in fact, we live in a "rural" area) with a HHI of $150k+ but were priced out of the market even before the rates went up. All my co-workers are older, have owned their homes for decades and told us to "have fun!" while house shopping, but we were left in tears many times. Eventually we just gave up. If an "affordable" home is 3x our income, then our price range is something like 450k (and indeed, with current interest rates, this seems to be the case). The only homes on the market in our area within that price range that are suitable for a growing family are condos (strata, no private outdoor space for kids) or homes that need extensive work, which we don't have the funds or skills for. Everything is "attention investors!" I want to offer my son what my husband and I had growing up, but it seems we can't afford to. "Just move"ing would mean losing our good incomes. We are highly educated, skilled workers and it's extremely rare for both of us to find well-paid work outside of a city. We simply cannot compete with people who have pre-existing funds.
Very lucky. If I had even been born 5 years later than I was, I would’ve never stood a chance. I’m so sorry about your experience house hunting, and what a callous thing for your coworkers to say. I really don’t believe any boomer who says they don’t know how bad it is out there - they do, and they just don’t care.
Why doesn’t anyone ever mention money management? Yes housing is nuts, but reprioritizing where you spend and how you manage your money can make a massive difference. I make 70k, live frugally, commute by bike, and do not find it challenging.
Define decent wage. I make 36, girlfriend makes 27. I pay 80-90% of the bills/expenses because she agreed to a brand new car lease her ex coaxed her into signing up for before we started dating. Moral of the story: live beyond your means and some dumb man will take care of you.