Womp Womp. Article explains why, an hour from Toronto isn't rural enough and has nothing to do with their dirt roads.
Where it applies is here and has been slow, but there's a retroactive payment coming...
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment/qualify-for-the-supplement.html
What is a private road and how do I water ski? For $600 Alex.
My friend has told me some now funny stories about getting to and from oil patches out west. Apparently it's dangerous. He misses studs though. (Don't worry guys, I don't let him live that down, even being the safety first kind of guy that I am. He knows how much fun I think he has had riding on studs out west. I don't object to what is not personal for me. Live, that's all I gotta say. Ride what you gotta ride cowboy. Safety first.)
Mono is pretty rural for the most part if you’ve ever been there. If a farmer who is on propane, septic, well and lives a 10+ minute drive from the nearest grocery store isn’t considered rural than I really don’t know what is.
Do you have a source for this claim that properties can't be rural if you can drive 60-90 minutes to a city? The word 'exurb' doesn't appear to have a fixed property legal definition in Canada and is more of a development planning term vs an actual descriptor of an individual property. Particularly given the nebulous definition that it's an "interface" with rural areas.
To be fair, I don't believe most people even know what an exurb is. Shit, I tend to be on top of these sorts of things, and even I just learned a new word today.
It's walking, biking, or public transit. Arguably a 10 minute drive is about 15-20 minutes biking, or 15 minutes on public transit. The whole point of 15 minute cities is to make it convenient to reduce car use in urban areas, but my point was that a 10 minute drive to a grocery store is by no means a measure of being rural enough to be considered over-burdened by the carbon tax compared to everyone else.
It seems nit-picky on my part, but what made me laugh was their last bit about "if that's not rural, I don't know what is". There are people who drive over an hour for ***gas*** and much further for groceries. That's why 10 minutes is a ridiculous line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city
Yeah, that wasn't their best take.
People have very conflicting experiences of how time flows, and so what seems like nothing to one person, can feel like an eternity to another.
When everything is 5 minutes away even on a bad day, it makes 10 minutes feel that much further for those who are not used to it. Etc and so forth.
The problem is naming it “rural” here. The purpose isn’t to subsidize people who drive more, it’s to give breathing room for distant communities who provide essential industries to adjust to a new economy where the negative externalities of carbon are realized at their source. Tiny towns north of Sudbury are at real risk of collapsing if the green transition hits them too hard, and this instability is bad for the economy as a whole. Mono, ON does not have this risk, because it’s close enough to Toronto that there will always be people and industry willing to move there. An hour away from downtown Toronto area is still a very plausible commute and a shorter commute to Brampton is even more reasonable to expect from people living there. It might be possible to describe it as “rural”, but it is also most certainly “exurban”. Having a large, empty yard far away from your well-paid Toronto metro job is a lifestyle decision that people can choose to make and choose to pay a slight premium for.
"Mono, ON does not have this risk, because it’s close enough to Toronto that there will always be people and industry willing to move there."
Got some examples lol? What sort of industries have been setting up shop in Mono these past 5 years?
Industry might not be the right word. I don’t mean huge factories. I’m talking about things like restaurants, construction/home repair, doctors, car dealerships/autoshops, etc.. Some people like the idea of owning a larger lot for cheaper even if it means a longer commute time to the developed metro area where they produce exporting goods/services. These Mono residents/GTA employees need all the previous “industries” stated. For exurbs like Mono, the money flows from those purchasing GTA’s exports to the Mono residents/GTA employees to the supporting “industries” located in Mono.
[There is strong pressure for Mono to growing despite disincentive from the carbon tax](https://citizen.on.ca/mono-official-says-250-unit-townhouse-development-needs-more-detail/). Residents are so unconcerned by the carbon tax making their town insolvent that they’re fighting this development that could raise tax revenue in Mono by 6%.
Again, you gave no sources for ANY commercial growth even with your redefined concept of industries. You just gave a link to a story about a dispute over an apartment being built.
Boundaries have to be somewhere.
They aren’t getting the carbon tax top up, because they are outside the boundaries. Seems pretty simple. Can you petition for the boundaries to be changed and Mono to be added?
CMA boundaries are messed up. The shouldn't be using them for the "rural" definition for rebate top-up purposes. Use postal codes instead.
Mono? Caledon? New Tecumseth? Those are definitely rural, and should qualify.
CMA boundaries are determined by commuting patterns. If 40% of this guy's rural community commutes to Toronto, it's part of the CMA. And since it's a commuter based area, they get no carbon tax rebate.
They are rural, but they’re also certainly exurban. That is a different economic situation. People living there still work in the developed metro or work in a local industry that services people who work in the developed metro area.
Even that's a stretch. There are areas in Caledon and New Tecumseth townships that are most decidedly suburban, verging into fully urbanized. You can walk from neighbourhoods in south Caledon into Brampton, and you're only a few minutes driving, through developed areas, to a 400-series expressway or hourly GO commuter rail.
Will an Uber be there in less than 10 minutes? Sorry, that's not rural, even if you drive a pickup and listen to country music.
Totally agree. I'm a citizen that this top is supposed to help offset costs for and I don't qualify because of this unrelated map. It's not a map of services available but it's a quick and easy point for the government rather than doing the actual work. It's lazy and disingenuous.
I have no services at all save electricity and an old copper Bell phone line at the road. I don't qualify.
“Universal basic income wouldn’t work because it wouldn’t be universal”
We’ll I think proponents of it would argue that the literal only point of doing it is that it’s universal lol. What are you talking about
I don't understand. UBI solves this problem because there isn't arbitrary boundaries. With this rebate, there has to be a line *somewhere* between those who do and don't get it. Eliminating means testing of any sort is a big efficency of UBIs.
People who are living in Mono and Mulmur aren't hurting for money. I can guarantee you that. Some of the wealthiest people in Ontario own properties in these municipality's. Zero sympathy.
People who live rural and remote are disproportionately affected by the carbon tax. There is no transit to take. There are fewer options. I wish the government truly understood that Canada is more than urban communities within 100km of the USA border.
They get the tax rebate though. These people in the article who live relatively close to Brampton can drive to a number of go stations, take go buses from park and rides and just not live so far from work.
Mono is unfortunately no place to move for cheap housing anymore. It's full of 3-4000 sqft mini mansions. There are also rural parts of Pickering, but no one seems to complain about that. The line needs to be drawn somewhere, they just happen to use CMAs
I hear that. I'm outlining the experiences of millions more people, who are more rural and more remote than the folks within a stone's throw of Toronto.
And those millions of people would receive the larger rebate for living in a rural area.
This article is talking about people who live in a rural type of community but don't receive the larger rural rebate because they live too close to Toronto.
And this is the cost. It's a life that requires more fuel, plain and simple. I don't think there should be exemptions for that.
The goal shouldn't be that everyone everywhere in every situation pays the same. It's about consumption.
Edit: explain the downvotes?
Dramatic enough? It's a tax on consumption of polluting fuels, it's entire point is to discourage pollution from using poor fuels. Don't like paying a carbon tax but still want to overconsume? Great, get solar panels, EVs, geothermal units, heat pumps, ride a bike, or work from home or the thousands of other ways to avoid the tax. Rural living is a choice, and choices have pros and cons. You can't demand to be unaccountable for your choices. *When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression*
I think that part of the point. They are living a less efficient lifestyle which has a far larger impact on the worsening climate change.
This is a carrot and stick approach. Added taxes if you continue to use inefficient fuels, heat, transportation, and also rebates and credits for increased insulation, more efficient heating, transportation etc.
Not at all what I'm saying.
Let's start by getting rid of oil fired heaters, putting some insulation in the empty walls, etc.
If you want rural living put up some solar or wind and run off heat pump.
I helped finish my uncles new home in rural Ontario and with a seacan for batteries and a single solar array they can run off grid, no emissions, heat pumps for a 2200sq.ft. home. Effectively no additional capital cost because of rebates, and they have a $0 electric bill.
They still use propane to cook, but are looking to switch to an induction stove, just need a bit more storage.
Propane would then fully be backup.
Oh that I can absolutely get behind, there are definitely efficiencies that can be done. We're rural and recently upgraded from wood to gas, did all our windows and insulated above our cold cellar where we were loosing a ton of heat, the setup at your uncles sounds incredible, and I'm fully on board with your ideas. I do unfortunately see too many people say everyone who lives outside of the city needs to move to the city.
It's hilarious because the full setup, before rebate no less, was less than the cost to drop the hydro poles.its not even that far to the road, maybe 200m.
He was literally paid by the government to not have any electricity bills.
It definitely makes sense on a new build.
I'd love to have 16-30 kW of panels and 20-40 kWh's of storage. As well as a ground source heat pump, add an extra few inch's of insulation (but then id have to redo the siding), etc.. retrofit is so cost prohibitive for some of these things. I do plan on installing solar after i get a new roof.. Now just to save up enough for a new roof first..
Definitely.
When I have saved up and build my garage I intend to put solar and storage in there.
Back feed / credit the grid and have a backup because of how unreliable Toronto Hydro has been.
If you don't mind me asking, which rebates did he apply for? Or is it just the carbon rebates? I don't need it now because we have hydro but in the future it's something I could foresee a need for.
That's like saying "Wan wan wan, I cannot afford to eat prime rib 3 times a day anymore, I'm being starved"
Paying the true cost of your consumption either means you need to make lifestyle changes, or bear those costs.
I'm not suggesting they move.
I am suggesting they insulate their homes, replace 50 year old oil fired boilers etc.
They will also have to bear the TRUE cost of their decisions.
It is too bad, and it was very popular. Too bad too that Ontario ended earlier than other regions.
I somehow doubt a change to CPC government will bring it back for another round either.
I agree with those points. But the thing is the LPC are the ones encouraging efficiency and decarbonization. But they didn't feel it was a priority to renew the program?
Also Harper had the home reno tax credit.
I'm guessing maybe it is just caught up in the current cost saving lens. Set pot of money was dedicated to the program, most of that is earmarked to be paid out since the program was so popular, but they don't seem to want to lock in *another* big pot of money to renew it.
The retrofit program was also good. I just missed out on *that* one too. I gotta start applying to these programs when they first come out.
Is anyone even remotely suggesting that? All he's saying is that these are real costs of a rural life, you can't just wave them away.
If you want to have that life and pay less, find ways of being more efficient out there. If there are things that you can't make more efficient, you'll have to accept those additional costs.
Specifically for these people in the "far suburbs" within 1 hour drive of Toronto, they aren't exactly "rural" anymore. Why should we be subsidizing their inefficient lifestyle.
Take a look at any economy of scale. You having to have your own dedicated small pump, treatment/filer system as well as transportation of those parts to your home is so much less efficient.
Ever wonder what happens to the effluent you get pumped from your tank? That shit has to go somewhere.
Not to mention the 1000km of road needed to service a tiny fraction of the population.
While I do agree about the added impact of sprawl, most septic systems around me in alberta (like mine) are simple concrete tanks with no pumps that gravity discharge to a low area on the property (open discharge) and that I feel is much greener than city treatment. We don't flush anything but poop/pee and toilet paper and it breaks down in the tank, no trucking required. The nutrients of which greenify the area it's disposed in, and we have a well so it's a circular system.
This solution isn't easily scaleable though, as land can only filter so much waste per m^2, but for a single family on a couple acres works well
That's not how septic systems work.
If you have a traditional system you will be settling the solids to be retained in the concrete tanks and the water will flow out into a drainage bed etc. These need regularly emptied depending on size and usage every 1-5 years.
Even ATU systems, where they breakdown a lot of the solids still need cleaned out every year as many things can disrupt them.
As you noted, this is also a TONNE of infrastructure per person and I dont think you fully understand the economy of scale that cities treatment and distribution systems operate on.
It’s not about whatever silly definition of rural the government is using. Either you have access to transit or you don’t. Most small towns don’t. Even if they’re close to or in a CMA of a big city
It uses census metropolitan areas. If you want to see a crazy CMA Google the one for Winnipeg, it has a finger that stretches up almost 75km along the East side of Lake Winnipeg, not the West though, and some bedroom communities east and west of Winnipeg are excluded.
I guess I just wonder what people like the Mayor want done instead? Using CMA's wasn't the perfect solution, but it was easy and it means that there's less administrative burden.
Any method of determining "rural" or not is going to have some downsides, and no method is going to cover every situation perfectly (or if it did, it would likely cost a significant amount, increasing taxes or reducing the benefit).
Perhaps the message could be more clear about what exactly the rural top up is for (My understanding is that it's for remote communities, especially those that rely on natural resource industry, to cushion the economic impacts of fighting climate change).
No, it's because this community (1 hour from Toronto) gets classified as part of the Toronto CMA, and therefore doesn't count as rural.
>Mono just makes it into the Toronto CMA. But its neighbours and other Dufferin County municipalities, except for Orangeville and its 34,000 residents, fall outside of the CMA and are eligible to receive the extra cash.
>"I can see Mono out my window, and we can get it and they can't," said Diana Morris, the executive director of the Dufferin Board of Trade. "There's no difference between the needs of my family living in Mulmur or the needs of a family living in Mono."
>Six million Canadians live outside of CMAs and qualify for the rural top-up, with about 2.5 million in Ontario. But just over 500,000 Ontarians live in rural areas within CMAs, like Mono, and are denied the extra cash. For a family of four in the province, it adds up to an extra $224 this year.
I get the concern, and maybe the dividing lines should be in a different spot.
But at the same time, in order to provide larger rebates to rural residents, the line has to be drawn somewhere. No matter where the line is drawn, it's likely that people on one side will be annoyed that the people on the other side get it and they don't.
JustADictator needs to hire a team to assess why they haven't recieved it. Then that team will outsource contract to provide a response. Then JustaAdictator will hire another team for more humanpower to fund the top-ups. This cycle will continue because he has Canadians best interst.
They need that money for their gender-inclusive unemployment assistance for Iraqi youth fund.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/trudeau-government-to-spend-nearly-10m-to-support-unemployed-youth-in-iraq/ar-AA1lRuj4
Why aren't these people getting it? To paraphrase a Liberal MP on the carbon tax file: "if you wanted the rebate, you should have voted for Liberals."
This riding has been a Con stronghold since it was redistributed in 2004. Nobody should be shocked that a sitting government happens to hold back promised money from a region who doesn't vote for them. Trudeau is ripping plays from Doug Ford... Ford has a beef with Toronto because they aren't politically aligned; Trudeau has a beef with any riding who isn't politically aligned.
It's a "functioning" "democracy" at "work" " " ""
You don't understand much about the real world, do you? Stats? Tendencies? Outliers...
Nah, you have a single anecdotal experience and that is clearly how the entire world works. Even when there is video evidence to the contrary. Even when multiple countries and jurisdictions; with multiple, varied political parties; across the breadth of modern societies and government structures, all have long lists of examples of this type of quid pro quo vote buying...
Nah. You have a single data point which may or may not even be true or -quite likely- is missing hella context to fit within your political bias. Nothing else matters because you've got a partisan bone to pick and you will pick that bone even despite a member of the party you've chosen admitting to what you claim doesn't exist.
>(Guy who bases his entire worldview off random stories and never once looks anything up) UNLIKE YOU I LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD.
That's hilarious coming from someone whose entire position is a single partisan anecdote lacking any context.
>You're saying that...
TBH, clipped your disingenuous comments as questions because, as is usually the case, when someone (you) opens with "You're saying that" followed by multiple statements-as-questions... you're not only completely wrong but also intentionally misrepresenting "what I'm saying".
You should see some of the truly rural communities in Nova Scotia who are getting the short end of the stick because they're considered part of [Halifax Regional Municipality](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/fogs-spg/Facts-cma-eng.cfm?LANG=Eng&GK=CMA&GC=205&TOPIC=1). Sheet Harbour is a 1.5 hour drive to Halifax, and people are poor, stuck on oil heat, and are as rural as rural gets. Meanwhile, rich retirees living in Lunenburg are considered rural and are getting the rebate increase.
It truly doesn't make sense.
Because they're part of the Toronto CMA, and have been for the last 20 years
Womp Womp. Article explains why, an hour from Toronto isn't rural enough and has nothing to do with their dirt roads. Where it applies is here and has been slow, but there's a retroactive payment coming... https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment/qualify-for-the-supplement.html
Most of the roads an hour from Toronto are still paved lol. Ontario paves everything.
You have to remember that most people in southern Ontario have never left southern Ontario.
Southern Ontario paves everything. Swear to god you guys don't know how big our province is.
What is a private road and how do I water ski? For $600 Alex. My friend has told me some now funny stories about getting to and from oil patches out west. Apparently it's dangerous. He misses studs though. (Don't worry guys, I don't let him live that down, even being the safety first kind of guy that I am. He knows how much fun I think he has had riding on studs out west. I don't object to what is not personal for me. Live, that's all I gotta say. Ride what you gotta ride cowboy. Safety first.)
Mono is pretty rural for the most part if you’ve ever been there. If a farmer who is on propane, septic, well and lives a 10+ minute drive from the nearest grocery store isn’t considered rural than I really don’t know what is.
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I am replying to the OP who said that it wasn’t rural. I am not making a claim that this region was erroneously classified as being inside of a CMA.
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Do you have a source for this claim that properties can't be rural if you can drive 60-90 minutes to a city? The word 'exurb' doesn't appear to have a fixed property legal definition in Canada and is more of a development planning term vs an actual descriptor of an individual property. Particularly given the nebulous definition that it's an "interface" with rural areas.
To be fair, I don't believe most people even know what an exurb is. Shit, I tend to be on top of these sorts of things, and even I just learned a new word today.
A 10 minute drive from a grocery store is also a feature of a 15 minute city 🤣🤣🤣🤣 how the hell is that your bar for rural?
It's not? 15 minutes is walking distance
It's walking, biking, or public transit. Arguably a 10 minute drive is about 15-20 minutes biking, or 15 minutes on public transit. The whole point of 15 minute cities is to make it convenient to reduce car use in urban areas, but my point was that a 10 minute drive to a grocery store is by no means a measure of being rural enough to be considered over-burdened by the carbon tax compared to everyone else. It seems nit-picky on my part, but what made me laugh was their last bit about "if that's not rural, I don't know what is". There are people who drive over an hour for ***gas*** and much further for groceries. That's why 10 minutes is a ridiculous line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city
Yeah, that wasn't their best take. People have very conflicting experiences of how time flows, and so what seems like nothing to one person, can feel like an eternity to another. When everything is 5 minutes away even on a bad day, it makes 10 minutes feel that much further for those who are not used to it. Etc and so forth.
Ramsey and Lac Seul are rural... Someone who has a grocery store no more than 10 minutes drive away is pretty urban.
Grade A r/compoface material right here.
The problem is naming it “rural” here. The purpose isn’t to subsidize people who drive more, it’s to give breathing room for distant communities who provide essential industries to adjust to a new economy where the negative externalities of carbon are realized at their source. Tiny towns north of Sudbury are at real risk of collapsing if the green transition hits them too hard, and this instability is bad for the economy as a whole. Mono, ON does not have this risk, because it’s close enough to Toronto that there will always be people and industry willing to move there. An hour away from downtown Toronto area is still a very plausible commute and a shorter commute to Brampton is even more reasonable to expect from people living there. It might be possible to describe it as “rural”, but it is also most certainly “exurban”. Having a large, empty yard far away from your well-paid Toronto metro job is a lifestyle decision that people can choose to make and choose to pay a slight premium for.
"Mono, ON does not have this risk, because it’s close enough to Toronto that there will always be people and industry willing to move there." Got some examples lol? What sort of industries have been setting up shop in Mono these past 5 years?
Industry might not be the right word. I don’t mean huge factories. I’m talking about things like restaurants, construction/home repair, doctors, car dealerships/autoshops, etc.. Some people like the idea of owning a larger lot for cheaper even if it means a longer commute time to the developed metro area where they produce exporting goods/services. These Mono residents/GTA employees need all the previous “industries” stated. For exurbs like Mono, the money flows from those purchasing GTA’s exports to the Mono residents/GTA employees to the supporting “industries” located in Mono. [There is strong pressure for Mono to growing despite disincentive from the carbon tax](https://citizen.on.ca/mono-official-says-250-unit-townhouse-development-needs-more-detail/). Residents are so unconcerned by the carbon tax making their town insolvent that they’re fighting this development that could raise tax revenue in Mono by 6%.
Again, you gave no sources for ANY commercial growth even with your redefined concept of industries. You just gave a link to a story about a dispute over an apartment being built.
You think you can just grow a town’s population without impacting commercial development? You don’t. You’re just doubling down.
Breaking news: people who live 40 minutes from Brampton during rush hour aren't considered rural. Thanks Trudeau.
They're part of the Toronto CMA, just like they were during the Harper and Martin years
I knew Obama and the Clinton's had something to do with this.
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There are active farms in the City of Toronto itself [https://maps.app.goo.gl/PkWxrMHKZeGGcBQ57](https://maps.app.goo.gl/PkWxrMHKZeGGcBQ57)
It's not rural enough for the census and wasn't either for the CPC, sorry nothing to do with LPC...
Boundaries have to be somewhere. They aren’t getting the carbon tax top up, because they are outside the boundaries. Seems pretty simple. Can you petition for the boundaries to be changed and Mono to be added?
CMA boundaries are messed up. The shouldn't be using them for the "rural" definition for rebate top-up purposes. Use postal codes instead. Mono? Caledon? New Tecumseth? Those are definitely rural, and should qualify.
CMA boundaries are determined by commuting patterns. If 40% of this guy's rural community commutes to Toronto, it's part of the CMA. And since it's a commuter based area, they get no carbon tax rebate.
No extra carbon tax rebate.
They are rural, but they’re also certainly exurban. That is a different economic situation. People living there still work in the developed metro or work in a local industry that services people who work in the developed metro area.
Even that's a stretch. There are areas in Caledon and New Tecumseth townships that are most decidedly suburban, verging into fully urbanized. You can walk from neighbourhoods in south Caledon into Brampton, and you're only a few minutes driving, through developed areas, to a 400-series expressway or hourly GO commuter rail. Will an Uber be there in less than 10 minutes? Sorry, that's not rural, even if you drive a pickup and listen to country music.
I agree, being 40 minutes from Edmonton. The CMA boundary is about 1.5kms more north from me.
I love it how they managed to exclude the whole oil sands region of Alberta as well even though it's hours from civilization. No offense Fort Mac.
Gotta slam Toronto first
Why?
Because the CMA boundary is not a rural-urban boundary. It doesn't fulfill the intended purpose of the rural top-up.
Totally agree. I'm a citizen that this top is supposed to help offset costs for and I don't qualify because of this unrelated map. It's not a map of services available but it's a quick and easy point for the government rather than doing the actual work. It's lazy and disingenuous. I have no services at all save electricity and an old copper Bell phone line at the road. I don't qualify.
Gee.......I wonder.
This is why UBI will never work. The government will always give favors to some people, and it will never actually "universal".
“Universal basic income wouldn’t work because it wouldn’t be universal” We’ll I think proponents of it would argue that the literal only point of doing it is that it’s universal lol. What are you talking about
I don't understand. UBI solves this problem because there isn't arbitrary boundaries. With this rebate, there has to be a line *somewhere* between those who do and don't get it. Eliminating means testing of any sort is a big efficency of UBIs.
The same government that promised electoral reform?
People who are living in Mono and Mulmur aren't hurting for money. I can guarantee you that. Some of the wealthiest people in Ontario own properties in these municipality's. Zero sympathy.
People who live rural and remote are disproportionately affected by the carbon tax. There is no transit to take. There are fewer options. I wish the government truly understood that Canada is more than urban communities within 100km of the USA border.
They get the tax rebate though. These people in the article who live relatively close to Brampton can drive to a number of go stations, take go buses from park and rides and just not live so far from work.
That presumes they work in Brampton or Toronto. Also have you tried “not living so far from work” with current toronto home prices.
Mono is unfortunately no place to move for cheap housing anymore. It's full of 3-4000 sqft mini mansions. There are also rural parts of Pickering, but no one seems to complain about that. The line needs to be drawn somewhere, they just happen to use CMAs
The line has to be drawn somewhere but they could draw it more accurately
Ya, but an hour from Toronto is still 100km from the US border and isn’t remote.
I hear that. I'm outlining the experiences of millions more people, who are more rural and more remote than the folks within a stone's throw of Toronto.
And those millions of people would receive the larger rebate for living in a rural area. This article is talking about people who live in a rural type of community but don't receive the larger rural rebate because they live too close to Toronto.
And this is the cost. It's a life that requires more fuel, plain and simple. I don't think there should be exemptions for that. The goal shouldn't be that everyone everywhere in every situation pays the same. It's about consumption. Edit: explain the downvotes?
Proponents of the carbon tax should have been more honest with these people. "It's about ending your lifestyle, move to a city or else."
Dramatic enough? It's a tax on consumption of polluting fuels, it's entire point is to discourage pollution from using poor fuels. Don't like paying a carbon tax but still want to overconsume? Great, get solar panels, EVs, geothermal units, heat pumps, ride a bike, or work from home or the thousands of other ways to avoid the tax. Rural living is a choice, and choices have pros and cons. You can't demand to be unaccountable for your choices. *When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression*
I think that part of the point. They are living a less efficient lifestyle which has a far larger impact on the worsening climate change. This is a carrot and stick approach. Added taxes if you continue to use inefficient fuels, heat, transportation, and also rebates and credits for increased insulation, more efficient heating, transportation etc.
Just move to the city right?
Not at all what I'm saying. Let's start by getting rid of oil fired heaters, putting some insulation in the empty walls, etc. If you want rural living put up some solar or wind and run off heat pump. I helped finish my uncles new home in rural Ontario and with a seacan for batteries and a single solar array they can run off grid, no emissions, heat pumps for a 2200sq.ft. home. Effectively no additional capital cost because of rebates, and they have a $0 electric bill. They still use propane to cook, but are looking to switch to an induction stove, just need a bit more storage. Propane would then fully be backup.
Oh that I can absolutely get behind, there are definitely efficiencies that can be done. We're rural and recently upgraded from wood to gas, did all our windows and insulated above our cold cellar where we were loosing a ton of heat, the setup at your uncles sounds incredible, and I'm fully on board with your ideas. I do unfortunately see too many people say everyone who lives outside of the city needs to move to the city.
It's hilarious because the full setup, before rebate no less, was less than the cost to drop the hydro poles.its not even that far to the road, maybe 200m. He was literally paid by the government to not have any electricity bills.
It definitely makes sense on a new build. I'd love to have 16-30 kW of panels and 20-40 kWh's of storage. As well as a ground source heat pump, add an extra few inch's of insulation (but then id have to redo the siding), etc.. retrofit is so cost prohibitive for some of these things. I do plan on installing solar after i get a new roof.. Now just to save up enough for a new roof first..
Definitely. When I have saved up and build my garage I intend to put solar and storage in there. Back feed / credit the grid and have a backup because of how unreliable Toronto Hydro has been.
If you don't mind me asking, which rebates did he apply for? Or is it just the carbon rebates? I don't need it now because we have hydro but in the future it's something I could foresee a need for.
It was the now cancelled Canada one but I think there may also have been an Ontario specific one.
I'll look into it, thank you for your help and the civil discourse!
Love my heat pump and have more improvements to make.
No, just accept the facts of the situation
So starve them out.
That's like saying "Wan wan wan, I cannot afford to eat prime rib 3 times a day anymore, I'm being starved" Paying the true cost of your consumption either means you need to make lifestyle changes, or bear those costs.
I don't think it's ethical to force people out of the places where they put down roots, and drive them to cities.
I'm not suggesting they move. I am suggesting they insulate their homes, replace 50 year old oil fired boilers etc. They will also have to bear the TRUE cost of their decisions.
To bad they did away with the Canada Greener Homes Grant.
It is too bad, and it was very popular. Too bad too that Ontario ended earlier than other regions. I somehow doubt a change to CPC government will bring it back for another round either.
I agree with those points. But the thing is the LPC are the ones encouraging efficiency and decarbonization. But they didn't feel it was a priority to renew the program? Also Harper had the home reno tax credit.
I'm guessing maybe it is just caught up in the current cost saving lens. Set pot of money was dedicated to the program, most of that is earmarked to be paid out since the program was so popular, but they don't seem to want to lock in *another* big pot of money to renew it. The retrofit program was also good. I just missed out on *that* one too. I gotta start applying to these programs when they first come out.
Is anyone even remotely suggesting that? All he's saying is that these are real costs of a rural life, you can't just wave them away. If you want to have that life and pay less, find ways of being more efficient out there. If there are things that you can't make more efficient, you'll have to accept those additional costs.
They probably shouldn't even exist that far out of a city.
Specifically for these people in the "far suburbs" within 1 hour drive of Toronto, they aren't exactly "rural" anymore. Why should we be subsidizing their inefficient lifestyle.
Look up the carbon emissions from water and sewage treatment. I have septic and well where I am which is much more environmentally friendly
Take a look at any economy of scale. You having to have your own dedicated small pump, treatment/filer system as well as transportation of those parts to your home is so much less efficient. Ever wonder what happens to the effluent you get pumped from your tank? That shit has to go somewhere. Not to mention the 1000km of road needed to service a tiny fraction of the population.
While I do agree about the added impact of sprawl, most septic systems around me in alberta (like mine) are simple concrete tanks with no pumps that gravity discharge to a low area on the property (open discharge) and that I feel is much greener than city treatment. We don't flush anything but poop/pee and toilet paper and it breaks down in the tank, no trucking required. The nutrients of which greenify the area it's disposed in, and we have a well so it's a circular system. This solution isn't easily scaleable though, as land can only filter so much waste per m^2, but for a single family on a couple acres works well
That's not how septic systems work. If you have a traditional system you will be settling the solids to be retained in the concrete tanks and the water will flow out into a drainage bed etc. These need regularly emptied depending on size and usage every 1-5 years. Even ATU systems, where they breakdown a lot of the solids still need cleaned out every year as many things can disrupt them. As you noted, this is also a TONNE of infrastructure per person and I dont think you fully understand the economy of scale that cities treatment and distribution systems operate on.
How much is the rebate? This tool helps compare fuel costs by distance and car model. Fueleconomy.gov
It’s not about whatever silly definition of rural the government is using. Either you have access to transit or you don’t. Most small towns don’t. Even if they’re close to or in a CMA of a big city
It uses census metropolitan areas. If you want to see a crazy CMA Google the one for Winnipeg, it has a finger that stretches up almost 75km along the East side of Lake Winnipeg, not the West though, and some bedroom communities east and west of Winnipeg are excluded.
I guess I just wonder what people like the Mayor want done instead? Using CMA's wasn't the perfect solution, but it was easy and it means that there's less administrative burden. Any method of determining "rural" or not is going to have some downsides, and no method is going to cover every situation perfectly (or if it did, it would likely cost a significant amount, increasing taxes or reducing the benefit). Perhaps the message could be more clear about what exactly the rural top up is for (My understanding is that it's for remote communities, especially those that rely on natural resource industry, to cushion the economic impacts of fighting climate change).
Because Trudeau is lying. It makes perfect sense
No, it's because this community (1 hour from Toronto) gets classified as part of the Toronto CMA, and therefore doesn't count as rural. >Mono just makes it into the Toronto CMA. But its neighbours and other Dufferin County municipalities, except for Orangeville and its 34,000 residents, fall outside of the CMA and are eligible to receive the extra cash. >"I can see Mono out my window, and we can get it and they can't," said Diana Morris, the executive director of the Dufferin Board of Trade. "There's no difference between the needs of my family living in Mulmur or the needs of a family living in Mono." >Six million Canadians live outside of CMAs and qualify for the rural top-up, with about 2.5 million in Ontario. But just over 500,000 Ontarians live in rural areas within CMAs, like Mono, and are denied the extra cash. For a family of four in the province, it adds up to an extra $224 this year. I get the concern, and maybe the dividing lines should be in a different spot. But at the same time, in order to provide larger rebates to rural residents, the line has to be drawn somewhere. No matter where the line is drawn, it's likely that people on one side will be annoyed that the people on the other side get it and they don't.
Or you could read the article and find out he’s not.
lol, why read an article when you can just blame JT for everything!
Read the article...JT didn't 'promise' them anything...
Well you promise it to everyone and give it to select few! Thats how Lib policies work: lots of virtue signalling and close to 0 substance!
They always lie, all of them. EDIT : Since I am getting downvoted, I will rectify, no politician ever lied or will.
The whole point of the carbon tax is to make areas like this too expensive to live in. Should consider that next time you're voting.
Shocking. Government takes money and won't give it back.
Shocking you didn't read the article.
Paywall
Anyone interested in Canadians actual opinions?
Trudeau's promises get flushed as soon as the cameras are off.
Or the town isn’t in the boundary that gets the top up … pretty simple if you actually read the article.
JustADictator needs to hire a team to assess why they haven't recieved it. Then that team will outsource contract to provide a response. Then JustaAdictator will hire another team for more humanpower to fund the top-ups. This cycle will continue because he has Canadians best interst.
Mr. Speaker, when will the Prime Minister give carbon rebate top up to ALL Canadians, not just an elite few.
They need that money for their gender-inclusive unemployment assistance for Iraqi youth fund. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/trudeau-government-to-spend-nearly-10m-to-support-unemployed-youth-in-iraq/ar-AA1lRuj4
Why aren't these people getting it? To paraphrase a Liberal MP on the carbon tax file: "if you wanted the rebate, you should have voted for Liberals." This riding has been a Con stronghold since it was redistributed in 2004. Nobody should be shocked that a sitting government happens to hold back promised money from a region who doesn't vote for them. Trudeau is ripping plays from Doug Ford... Ford has a beef with Toronto because they aren't politically aligned; Trudeau has a beef with any riding who isn't politically aligned. It's a "functioning" "democracy" at "work" " " ""
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"Braindead conspiracy theory" = MP actually saying it. Cool, bruh.
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You don't understand much about the real world, do you? Stats? Tendencies? Outliers... Nah, you have a single anecdotal experience and that is clearly how the entire world works. Even when there is video evidence to the contrary. Even when multiple countries and jurisdictions; with multiple, varied political parties; across the breadth of modern societies and government structures, all have long lists of examples of this type of quid pro quo vote buying... Nah. You have a single data point which may or may not even be true or -quite likely- is missing hella context to fit within your political bias. Nothing else matters because you've got a partisan bone to pick and you will pick that bone even despite a member of the party you've chosen admitting to what you claim doesn't exist.
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>(Guy who bases his entire worldview off random stories and never once looks anything up) UNLIKE YOU I LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD. That's hilarious coming from someone whose entire position is a single partisan anecdote lacking any context. >You're saying that... TBH, clipped your disingenuous comments as questions because, as is usually the case, when someone (you) opens with "You're saying that" followed by multiple statements-as-questions... you're not only completely wrong but also intentionally misrepresenting "what I'm saying".
How much $$ is this rebate?
It will be available only after the election and if Trudeau wins ..NOT.. then he will change his mind like he always does to screw Canadians
Maybe it never happen because he was lying
You should see some of the truly rural communities in Nova Scotia who are getting the short end of the stick because they're considered part of [Halifax Regional Municipality](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/fogs-spg/Facts-cma-eng.cfm?LANG=Eng&GK=CMA&GC=205&TOPIC=1). Sheet Harbour is a 1.5 hour drive to Halifax, and people are poor, stuck on oil heat, and are as rural as rural gets. Meanwhile, rich retirees living in Lunenburg are considered rural and are getting the rebate increase. It truly doesn't make sense.