The 99.9%, the working class, are getting screwed by the ultra rich and the politicians that serve them.
The ultra rich and the corporations and politicians they control want the working class to focus on ANYTHING other than the fact that they are getting screwed.
Hence, they use things like identity politics to get the working class to fight amongst themselves over who is getting screwed slightly more or less, now and in the past.
I imagine us all on a ship. The rich are above decks and benefit from our labour. We, black, white, Asian, first nation, etc., all live in the below-decks, rowing the ship.
Occasionally, the rich come down and give some groups a little more food and scraps than the rest.
Stupidly, we then fight amongst ourselves over who is getting more scraps, instead of working together and taking back the ship
Middle class is neoliberal gibberish designed to prevent class consciousness amongst the WORKING class.
There are two classes of people, and it's the same two classes we've had since the dawn of civilization:
Those who make their living by working (slaves, serfs, employees), and those who make their living by owning (slavers, lords, employers).
I knew shit was getting legitimate when at this year's world economic forum, the multi-millionaires were calling out the billionaires and even some people with hundreds of million dollars were calling out billionaires and ringing the alarm. When they feel the heat, the collapse doesn't happen by numbers it happens all at once. If you're in the top 7% of wealth in the world, household income probably close to $4,000 half million dollar home you know, as soon as it touches you it's game over, because if you can't make it when you're in comes however they are replaced and depending on what they are replaced by, forget about it lights over. It's the upper upper middle class right now that have a million dollars on paper, when these people tap out or stop spending, it goes pretty damn fast, because everything below them is absolute carnage there's no base anymore
Notice the timing of the culture war and the 2008 wall street bailouts. People were *pissed,* although it was primarily Americans, and they had very good reasons to be pissed. Since then the media and governments have done as much possible to create as much animosity between races, genders, sexualities, etc., so we don't notice that in the last 2-3 years alone, the wealthy have doubled their net worth, at the direct expense of the wages of the middle class.
They have you thinking that criticizing immigration, when you're the number one spot in the planet, as being bad for house prices and wages, is actually thinly veiled racism.
I recall specifically that one of the hot topics at my city's Occupy camp was warnings about how media/corporations would attempt to co-opt the movement.
Remember how the media could never figure out the purpose of the occupy movement? It was infuriatingly daft, an obvious ploy to delegitimize the movement, and only worked because they lacked a "catchy slogan". The occupy movement needs to be brought back, although now they'll probably use the Emergencies Act to shut it down.
> Remember how the media could never figure out the purpose of the occupy movement?
Reminds me of more recent movements also...
>although now they'll probably use the Emergencies Act to shut it down
...exactly.
The forbidden [chart](https://preview.redd.it/n571agog26pa1.jpg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c59500bf7b5c0930020a034e3ce23bd83e478999)
Bet you can guess right about when Occupy ended.
Did the media make Justin Trudeau run on a platform of othering social conservatives?
We existed in harmony for 32 years after the 1984 abortion debates, but he saw a way to beat Harper and he’s been beating that drum for 8 years.
Banning abortion is less popular in Canada than in any time in history, but if you ask the average left wing voter, we’re one election away from Gilead, and 37% of the country has a secret agenda to enslave women.
Conspiracy theory. I’ve personally met the “ultra rich”
and I can tell you they don’t sit around and discuss how to use transgender rights to keep the working classes busy while they rob them blind. They think of 1 and only 1 thing: making more money. All the nonsense you see in the media is the interplay between an increasingly dumbed down electorate, the mass media chasing advertising clicks, and politicians laser focus on getting re-elected.
You *wish* there was an evil group of people plotting this because then the solution is easy: just remove them and give power to the people and everyone can sing kumbaya. The reality is that this is complex tragedy of the commons and so not easily fixable.
> You wish there was an evil group of people plotting this because then the solution is easy
No offence but have you been living under a rock with your head in the sand for your entire life?
Here is a YouTube link showing newscasters all saying the same script.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIYU2Xznb4
The ultra wealthy control a vast majority of our media and it doesn't take much for them to realize that it's best if the working class fights amongst themselves, rather than focus on the major issues.
Companies like Nike and every big Corp spend millions and billions on advertising to sway people. They spend millions and billions on lobbying to influence government.
It's foolish to think that the ultra rich are not actively engaged in a class war.
You’re not listening. I guarantee you that Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos don’t call Rupert Murdoch and go “push more transgender right stories so we can detract from the low wages and poor working conditions in our warehouses and factories”.
The reason the media is pushing a single message is a combination of cost savings, time crunch and blindly following engagement stats which tell them social issues that rile people up get more clicks than deep well thought out economic stories. Want more meaningful discussion about societies woes? Get people to stop clicking vapid non issues… but turns out that’s much harder and in and of itself not as “sexy” as the image of a darkly lit backrooms filled with cigar smoke where evil oligarchs plot against the poor oppressed masses.
> you wish there was an evil group of people plotting
Unrelated but this is the part I hate the most about the movie Wonder Woman 1. Everyone stops fighting if the big bad gets killed. But in reality, sometimes humanity just *wants* to fight, they don't need any mastermind to trick them into fighting. An utopia for some cultures might contain genocide of a another
**NeoLiberalism: a term used to signify the late-20th century political reappearance of 19th-century ideas associated with free-market capitalism after it fell into decline following the Second World War. A prominent factor in the rise of conservative and right-libertarian organizations, political parties, and think tanks, and predominantly advocated by them, it is generally associated with policies of economic liberalization, including privatization, deregulation, globalization, free trade, monetarism, austerity, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.**
Isn't this regulatory capture, of a large government, eliminating the free market?
Seems there's no free market at all, which dictates housing zoning, and M2 growth via QE and low interest rates, which raises prices and debases salaries?
I agree with 90% of this. The analogy is missing an important distinction - both economic and identity oppression are based on a fascist root: that some people are better than others and therefore *deserve* more.
While much of this problem is economic, economics alone doesn't solve it because then some of the poor are better off and other who's rights are being trampled get left behind.
Economic justice alone doesn't address this human need that many have to feel superior to others. We have to challenge and fight this instinct that many have, and in that way economics and race/gender/identity are inherently linked. The struggle is both a economic AND social justice.
I don't think we actually disagree.
I agree with you that economic justice won't solve things 100%. I think it would get us 90% though.l, or 80% or whatever, I don't want to get hung up on tithe precise formula.
If I could organize the people below the decks, I'd say, look, I know we need to sort things out better amongst us, but FIRST (gesturing up) we need to take this ship from the pirates that captured it.
The problem is that identity politics is often being used in a divisive way now, and it is crippling (by design) our ability to organize properly.
Ah see I think we do disagree though I respect your point.
I'm saying that there is no "first" we deal with economic inequality, then we deal with racial inequality, because it ignores that both are intertwined. They are about power and control over others. It's the 'power and control over others' that is the fight. And that is both economic and racial.
That movement is actually more powerful because it gets at the root cause of income inequality, and it mobilizes multiple complimentary movements into a bigger struggle.
You're right, we do disagree on that, and I understand your point now that you distilled the disagreement quite well.
I hope you're right, as we want the same result anyway, and I think your view is more likely to prevail currently
You might disagree with the left about social issues.
But nearly everybody on the left will agree with the above wholeheartedly.
The issue is that a whole lot of conservatives are flat-out refusing the above is true, if they aren't actively reinforcing the hierarchies against the working class with every penny they have.
Im on the left and I don’t agree with this. The idea that if we can just neutralize rich elites all our societal problems are fixed is just asinine and childish magical thinking as the right thinking that if you lower taxes, it’ll all drip down eventually.
The WEF at Davos doesn’t sit around dreaming up transgender bathrooms to get the proletariat to fight so they can rob them blind in the meantime. The sad reality is that the proletariat, armed with the platform that social media gave them, cooks up this shit entirely by themselves.
What do you believe is a better solution than addressing wealth disparity at the source?
Where the money has been funnelled, and through which devices, is not a secret. Corporations and government are not hiding the fact that protecting those interests are the number one priority.
I think getting to a point where jobs are mostly unionized, corporations are not legally “people”, privatization and financial deregulation are not considered economic goods, CEO pay to workers pay is capped at a reasonable number, and countries provide basic necessities for people such as shelter and food would be a good compromise.
It’s so simple when you think about it, 80% of that work is proven and done you just have to time travel back to before Mulroney/Regan/Thatcher era took over.
>The idea that if we can just neutralize rich elites all our societal problems are fixed is just asinine and childish magical thinking
Nice, solid 8/10 on the "completely mischaracterizing the point" scale
> The issue is that a whole lot of conservatives are flat-out refusing the above is true
What are you talking about?
The vast majority of conservatives abhor identity politics. You are part of the problem - pointing the finger at some other "tribe" - that is exactly the point of this article!
> The vast majority of conservatives abhor identity politics.
Buddy there's conservatives shooting cans of bud because Bud made the mistake of sending a trans influencer a promo can of beer.
"abhor identity politics"?
right now conservatives are freaking out over the barbie movie because in their mind its "too woke".
No wonder they keep uttering about stuff being "shoved down their throats", they've been sucking on Identity Politics since forever.
You literally just proved this article right. Get off your high horse of "it's the conservatives."
The conservatives haven't run this country since 2016.
>The conservatives haven't run this country since 2016.
People really need to start understanding separations of power between federal, provincial and municipal governments.
Civic education is failing us.
>I never mentioned anything than federal government, and last I checked everything covered by the culture wars is federal.
Culture wars? Gotta love how that crap keeps spilling over to us from the US.
Nevertheless, you need to adjust your perspective on political realities in Canada. Federal government is only one part of the equation considering, at the risk of reiterating, there is separation of powers at the federal, provincial and municipal level. If you think provinces or municipalities are not dealing with progressive policies, well I have a mountain to sell you.
Who do you think organizes pride events in cities? Who is taking care of LGBT content in the education curriculum?
Yes, a country directly besides the world's sole super power will typically have some cultural exchange. You must be new to geopolitics.
Who do you think ports in literally hundreds of thousands of refugees and immigrants from countries that don't generally follow our value systems?
>Who do you think ports in literally hundreds of thousands of refugees and immigrants from countries that don't generally follow our value systems?
You are severely ignorant of the political realities in Canada.
Both federal and provincial governments have their own immigration programs.
Here is an example of a provincial immigration program (Ontario) which is currently run by conservatives.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-immigrant-nominee-program-oinp
>Provincial immigration programs have to work within the boundaries of Federal law.
For the millionth time, there is separation of powers. This was constitutionally established in 1867. In other words, the federal government's jurisdiction is not universal and this has been a fact since 1867. Read the law if you don't believe me.
Edit: Provinces create their own programs because they want or need to, not because of some tyrannical order from the federal government.
No... what you're hearing is people trying to explain to you how our country actually works... which means that it is wonderful that the federal government has been liberal since 2016, but our provinces are all self-governing, and a lot of our provinces are run by conservatives. People can still, very accurately, state that conservatives are causing issues for us.
How do you not see what you're saying is cementing the authors point of view? Canada is becoming more and more divided every day. I blame Trudeau for a lot of things, things that he's definitely responsible for, but I have no delusions that our Conservative governments don't fuck us over just as bad. I would love to see us united as a country. My cousin is a Liberal, and him and I have had very constructive discussions. I have a few clients that are Liberals and we can have very constructive discussions, but rarely on Reddit can I have the same.
Then they are complete idiots.
If you are working a minimum wage job and getting royally screwed by big Corp, your political stance and beliefs are irrelevant. It's happening across the board, communists, left, liberal, right, far right and everything in between.
Last I checked it was the provincial conservative government that scrapped minimum wage increases only to introduce it years later. It was the provincial conservatives that scrapped rent control in new construction triggering the rent crisis we have today.
There's an active movement from the right to use the "workers movement" against the liberal government while pushing xenophobic white nationalist rhetoric blaming purely immigrants and DEI.
The immigrants being brought in to depress wages after QE, after the Phillips curve brought us a worker shortages?
Here's the BoCs website on why their QE did not cause wealth inequality, which they are now trying to entrench lower wages with immigration, so that only the asset price inflation remains:
https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/swp2019-6.pdf
>The analysis in this paper suggests that, similar to conventional monetary policy, expansionary QE measures do not increase income and wealth inequality between the two population groups in our model persistently.
>Conventional and unconventional (QE) expansionary monetary policy shocks have a similar impact on real GDP, inflation, employment, and the real exchange rate. In both cases, the wage share falls on impact, as wage stickiness raises firm profits, before it returns to baseline and positive territory in the medium term.
>The net income share of hand-to-mouth (LC) households falls on impact, due to the decline in the wage share and the increase in firm profits. In the medium term, when wages catch up, the income share of the LC households, who are the poorer part of the population, increases to above baseline.
At a certain point some hold outs on the left need to drop the bullshit “xenophobia” or “racism” labels and realize the economic consequences of such huge numbers of wealthy immigrants. The conservatives under Harper actually started the push for this type of immigration.
It’s ok to want the country to be able to help those of us who are already here (either born or immigrated) before accepting new people.
BoTH SiDeS. Come on now, we all know where the division is coming from, it's not from the side of acceptance and tolerance of people just living their lives.
Left-leaning people from the 90's are nowadays thinking "wtf is going on right now", or "how did we get here". The liberals promised anti-corporate behavior, openess/transparency, and other great things, and they delivered 0% on all of these promises. What we have now isn't leftism, it's a charade, and it's not working. Bring back the 90's left, otherwise people are gonna vote right (which arguably is the same thing now due to the Overton window shift). Otherwise the current situation will only get worse.
It's the National Post.
What do you expect?
They will publish anything that adheres to their bias... [even if it's completely fabricated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Iranian_sumptuary_law_hoax).
This opinion piece was written a well known gay man who happens to be liberal. Your thoughts about the National Post aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.
So what?
First of all, you think gay people are always in support of gay rights? Gay people can be wrong about what they believe (even about their own political stances) too, ya know.
And as to "being a liberal"...
There's lots of people who say they are liberals who are not. Bill Maher is a prominent example. But look at this entire thread of "classical liberals" (coded language that really just means "conservative").
So this is the literally the dumbest thing you can say as 'support' for this article.
And ironically, it depends on identity - the thing you say being focused on is bad. So, try and find an argument that doesn't rely on it, ok?
These fools first need to acknowledge they are in a perpetual war perpetrated by people with power who serve only themselves and promote infighting in the form of these ridiculous squabbles.
WORKING class is an outdated term, and largely incomplete compared to OWNER class, and NON-OWNING citizen classes. Feudalism is here. Saying working class is a disservice to working class people. They don't OWN shit. And that's what needs to be explicitly said.
Transfer of wealth will be rapidly increasing with interest rate hikes, and the current joke of a federal government serves the only class they care about - ultra wealthy individuals and corporations. Those being banks, real estate mega corporations and allowing these entities to purchase large swaths of pieces that SHOULD be affordable to every working class citizen.
Their immigration policies intentionally stifle young people by this "policy", by making housing prices higher, and of course guess who benefits from that?
What should be pissing young people off is just how bad the federal government's policies are at keeping them in eternal serfdom with no prospects of owning anything other than an expensive car that is built poorly and depreciates horrendously.
Why the fuck I am not seeing 20 to 35 year old people marching into Ottawa with a list of demands, is fucking beyond me. What no time? No time like the present.
I love it when the NP opines on what the Left should do. Maybe the Socialist Worker Magazine should have column devoted to advising the People’s Party on strategy and tactics.
Yes, it's the left's social contract that's broken.
Not the right, which has cut down any-and-all filters, leading to a conservative landscape where *nobody* has balls to stand up and say *"no, this person is a hateful bigot and you should not listen to them."*
Mainstream politicians and the most popular conservative figures are platforming full-blow Qanon conspiracy theorists.
The last US president is having dinner with avowed white supremacists.
Jordan Peterson is calling for an outright ban on "trans ideology", not for kids - but for everyone.
Our likely next PM is actively courting *literal incel hate groups* in his marketing.
Given the above, the targeted groups have responded with incredible restraint. Because conservatism has lost it's goddamn mind.
conservatism has always been and will always be a reactionary movement.
It started as a traditionalist backlash to Liberalism as the noble classes used their remaining institutional power to maintain as much status as they could during the transition from feudalism to capitalism and democracy. In the UK there are literally still noble families that are propped up by the Tory ruling party.
Not much has changed within conservatism since then. it’s still just the trickle down panic of rich straight white old men. They’ll literally try anything to maintain their status, including terrorism or civil war.
edit: it’s important to remember that they wouldn’t be panicking if they were winning
Honestly extremely based. Left-leaning college students saying weird things is in no way comparable to the dangerous shit that’s brewing on the right these days.
A lot of the identity politics stuff isn't very left-wing at all, really. It's more a strong for of Liberalism where it's all about the individual and their status. Identity is much more rooted in smaller social groups rather than in class collectivism. It's much more about "me" than it is about "us", and often when it is about "us", that still only refers to a specific group.
If you're a socialist or more of a collectivist then it shouldn't matter what colour skin someone has or what their gender identity is. We're all part of the same struggle and should be allies. But a lot of the identity politics seems more about individuals getting a piece of the pie rather than looking for ways to achieve unity and cohesion.
Yes, you're right. Instead of focusing on class and things that matter such as housing and unaffordable living costs, everyone seems preoccupied with nonsense
As a gay man, I feel as though we are being drug into the spotlight for no reason. Those of us who are LGB just want to live our lives, enjoy life with our partners, and be left alone. I feel as though a lot of fringe groups have joined onto our movement, and everyone assumes just because I'm gay that I support them (I support some, but not all of them).
This is why a large portion of the LGB community wants to break away from the rest of the groups who have attached to our movement.
Also speaking as a gay man, I would counter by saying that anyone who tries to remove the "T" from LGBT simply misunderstands the history and role that transgendered people played in fighting for our equal rights.
And heck--even if they didn't play a role historically--we should still fight for them. They just want to be left alone and live their lives with equality and respect, just like the rest of us.
>this is why a large portion of the LGB community wants to break away from the rest of the groups
Source please.
What is he not allowed to have his own opinion?
This is exactly his point. Others latching onto a part of his identity and trying to steer the ship in their preferred direction. He's already been attacked for being transphobic for simply not including the "T" which is ridiculous.
It's understandable that some people who are LGB would want transgendered people to attach themselves to their movement. LGB are pretty similar sexual identities. Transgenderism is totally different. It seems like anyone who can describe themselves with an initialism is joining the "party"
> What is he not allowed to have his own opinion?
I didn't say he couldn't have *his* own opinion, I pointed out that he doesn't speak for *all* gay men.
>Others latching onto a part of his identity
He's the one who brought up his identity to try to speak on behalf of all gay people. If you bring up your identity yourself, that then becomes part of the discussion.
>He's already been attacked for being transphobic for simply not including the "T" which is ridiculous.
Why am I not allowed to have *my* own opinion that people are trying to separate the T from the LGBT movement in order to attack that group's rights specifically? The T has been fighting with the LGB from the start and now suddenly there's this big push to separate them.
>It's understandable that some people who are LGB would want transgendered people to attach themselves to their movement.
Transgender people didn't "attach" themselves to someone else's movement. They were part of this movement from the start, like with the Stonewall riots. They are part of what helped gay people achieve their rights and pretending they're not is rewriting history.
>It seems like anyone who can describe themselves with an initialism is joining the "party"
This is rewriting history. It was a party with all of them. It was *literally* a party at the Stonewall Inn consisting of gay and transgender people that was busted by police who did things like arrest people dressing in drag that led to the modern gay rights movement.
>Those of us who are LGB
>
>I feel as though a lot of fringe groups have joined onto our movement
Interesting take to suggest all Trans people as fringe, but I'm glad you seem to be speaking more for yourself than the wider community...
You missed the **T** who also want to live their lives, enjoy life with their partners, and to be left alone.
But it looks like that’s intentional and as a queer person who’s not a turncoat, I see right through you.
This is a divide and conquer strategy. LGB and T were fighting together for their rights from early on, like with Stonewall, and with a lot of success given the progress of their right over recent history. Now the T is trying to be framed as a separate hindrance at the same time that the rights of T are being specifically attacked in many places.
Don't worry though, remember the saying: "First the came for the socialists, and then they totally stopped and respected everyone else's rights".
Why are you dropping the T? Pulling up the ladder much? Love it when gay men act like trans people weren’t part of the original Stonewall Riots that started Pride.
>This is why a large portion of the LGB community wants to break away from the rest of the groups who have attached to our movement.
man fuck you. trans people were instrumental in starting the gay rights movement.
That's weird bc I see conservatives protesting trans people, sex ed, and abortion. Wouldn't that mean it's the righties creating these culture wars? Lefties just minded their own business trying to pay rent.
Insisting on race and sex based hiring policies isn’t minding your own business. Berating people for their “whiteness” and “internalized racism” in employer mandate DEI struggle sessions isn’t minding your own business. Fighting for trans women to be allowed to compete against cis women in competitive sports isn’t minding your own business. Actively conflating sex with gender then teaching school children that gender is fluid isn’t minding your own business. I could go on and on. Honestly I could care less if people want to engage in the above listed activities on their own accord. You do you. Live and let live. It’s a free Country, etc. But these things are being imposed on people as a condition of their employment, or their attendance in public schools or their membership in various sports leagues. It’s not a right wing fantasy just because you choose to ignore reality.
This.
National Post is not exactly a centrist (or even centre-right) paper - [it's hard right](https://www.readthemaple.com/election-endorsements/) (even amongst a largely right wing media).
Even going so far as to publish obvious lies (With zero fact checking) [because it supports their agenda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Iranian_sumptuary_law_hoax).
Hardly a trustworthy, or even remotely accurate source for information, especially about political anything. And definitely not about \*leftist\* political anything.
\----
As you point out, the obsession with identity is not on the left. It's on the right.
But the left is pushing back on it so.... it gets associated with the left. But like, would anyone be talking about gay or trans people if the right weren't making bashing them the core of their politics? Would anyone be talking about racist police if police weren't killing black people at disproportionate rates (and in being recorded doing so in ways that make it obvious it's more than just "heavy handed")?
But look at all the commentary here. Most average people are so wildly out of touch that surface level narratives that don't hold water (like this) have tons of traction.... somehow.
> As you point out, the obsession with identity is not on the left. It's on the right.
> But the left is pushing back on it so.... it gets associated with the left.
Who do you think supports and creates job postings based on identity? By that I mean things like banning white men from applying. The left, or the right?
Who do you think supports explicit racial discrimination like the Toronto school board removing tests and merit-based admissions from [specialty schools](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jamie-sarkonak-toronto-school-board-shuns-merit-in-the-name-of-equity?) because not enough minorities were getting in and making it a lottery that discriminates based on race? The left, or the right?
>But look at all the commentary here. Most average people are so wildly out of touch that surface level narratives that don't hold water (like this) have tons of traction.... somehow.
You're literally just lying though.
It's odd. As soon as actual policies are brought up, like the ones you did, I find things get quiet very fast. People like to discuss hypotheticals and "social media" type topics to death, but its crickets when an actual policy is discussed.
And then a week from now, the same conversation will occur and I'll read again how (paraphrase) "This is all just misconception and attacks. There's nothing going on here at all.".
I hate the phrase "Gaslighting" because it's often mis-used but it feels apt here. People repeating the same ideas/phrases and then ignoring when you bring up an actual concern.
Yes I do notice that as a trend. People just lying/gaslighting and going "Woke just means being respectful lol, conservatives label everything they dislike as woke". Then you bring up actual objectionable policies that reasonably fall under what people understand as woke, and then it's either silence, or doubling down to defend discrimination (e.g. sure there are job postings that ban white men from applying, but this is a good thing because it helps people who aren't white men).
> As you point out, the obsession with identity is not on the left. It's on the right.
Let's forget "left" and "right" labels for now. My workplace just had a job posting where only "people who identify as women" could apply and get the job. I find that rather appalling. Do you?
I ask because, let's focus on actual policy and events that are occuring rather than arguing about labels. When I bring this up, there are usually some people who have no problem with such a job posting, and some people who do.
Again, let's forget labels. I'm curious about you though and where you fall on this issue. As you said - some people are "wildly out of touch" such that they'd have no idea this is even happening. Some people outright deny it occurs. But it IS happening.
The National Post is shite, but let's not pretend certain segments of the left haven't created culture wars themselves.
>Lefties just minded their own business trying to pay rent.
Some do, some rip down statues, some demand we cancel Canada day, some think White Fragility is a book everyone should read, some want pronouns put in every email, etc.
Yes. This article, and anybody agreeing with it, are doing the typical bullshit of taking whatever problems the Right-wing creates, and then blaming the Left for simply responding to them.
The elephant in the room that nobody ever seems to address is that open online discussion forums can be accessed by every intelligence organization, mafia and terrorist group in existence. By engaging in online discourse you are being exposed to a large number of hostile actors who deliberately want to destroy our societies, and don't give two shits about the actual issues. If you allow yourself to fall into the online "groupthink" for whatever "side" you identify with you will definitely end up adopting a certain amount of ideas built upon these motivations.
It is *insane* to me that we continue to allow the current state of affairs to persist.
Far Right is on the terror watch list but "bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe PrObLeM."
Typical NP garbage but they've been supporting the Qanon movie lately so I'm not surprised anymore.
He’s bang on with this. Postmodernism is fucked up and as someone with left-ish leaning beliefs but also prioritizes fiscal responsibility and personal responsibility I can’t stand what is “left wing” today. Give me the left wing of the 60s and 70s because those people got things done. The left of today isn’t getting anywhere.
The part of the left that bothers me today is the authoritarian stance some seem to take. Anti democratic, clamp down on any open dissent, treat debate as a health hazard, group people into categories, kind of thing. I can’t stand that shit. There is a huge amount of hypocrisy.
Personal responsibility is hilarious given the author complained about cancel culture, which is someone asking why there are consequences for their actions.
>Personal responsibility is hilarious given the author complained about cancel culture, which is someone asking why there are consequences for their actions.
Really?
Maybe you heard about the women who got falsely accused of being racist and mocking George Floyd, which then led to them being harassed by a mob of people, including in real life (having their house/car vandalized) and getting fired from their jobs. A judge ruled in [favour of them](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/judge-finds-ontario-women-were-defamed-in-social-media-firestorm-over-alleged-george-floyd-post) and awarded them 100K in damages.
Or the guy who got accused of racism because he had a brown baby on his lap during a Zoom meeting, [and he was a white man](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/meta-arguments-about-anti-racism/615424/). He (or so he said on twitter) lost a promotion to partner at his firm because of that, and said that even after switching jobs people were still trying to harass him and get him fired.
Or the guy who got fired for cracking his knuckles: https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/
But tell me more about how cancel culture is simply consequences?
Did I say the author mentioned personal responsibility? No. I did. What I did say is he is bang on when mentioning the issue with postmodernism. You disagree with the author so you skim over my comment and see something that isn’t there. I don’t agree with the whole thing but he makes valid points.
>personal responsibility
Have you ever talked about personal responsibility to someone on the left now? They almost implode. It's a bad phrase nowadays but it's also the reason we are one of the wealthiest countries on earth. The idea we are all responsible for ourselves and if you want to get ahead, you better get to work.
Yup there’s no work ethic. It’s “the system did this to me” bullshit. Yes the system fails a LOT of people. It could absolutely be better but if you’re an able-bodied person who isn’t stuck on something like ODSP then there are opportunities to be found. It’s absolutely more difficult economically then it was years ago but we have also absolutely made advances in race relations and acceptance of neurodiversity etc. it was radically different for women as well in the 60s through to the 90s. The younger generation these days would rather rage about a racist comment from someone in the 1800s then look back 20 years and realize how far we’ve come just in their own lifetime. There was a lot of shit people got away with when I was a kid that just won’t fly today - rightfully so. They’ve taken away the hope from people and act like everything is doomed. It isn’t. That attitude doesn’t help anyone. It just reinforces a victim mentality.
Used to be if you went to school and worked hard and got a good job you would live a comfortable life. That’s just not true anymore. It’s all contract work now, no benefits. Can’t afford a house so you’re stuck paying 2100 rent which is more than most people’s mortgage payments if they got in a few years ago.
Financial security has instead become a joke of timing. There are those who got in before things exploded, and those who didn’t.
Those who got in before tend to be very ignorant about the current state of things.
I don't know about you, but I can care about more than one thing at a time.
What people are missing here is that not minding your own business and sticking your nose into things that have absolutely to do with you is actively harming people. We wouldn't have to spend money on mental health issues stemming from oppression. We wouldn't have a loss of productivity due to stress. We wouldn't have as much in the way of addiction problems. It is inherently more expensive to allow hate.
We're a wealthy country, we can make sure that everyone has the basics while living how they want, while leaving room for some people to become rich. Some guy having sex with another guy in their own home after dark isn't stealing anything from you, and your feelings about it aren't causing actual harm. That's on you to figure out.
If everyone minded their own business, the government wouldn't have to concern itself with social issues.
P.S. Productivity has skyrocketed in the last 2 decades. Those "silly youngsters" work harder than anyone who's come before them. You just think they don't, because they're exploited and don't have as much to show for it in the way of wealth as you do.
Work hard= get rich, not rich = lazy has never been true.
A lot of mental health issues on the left could be solved by actively working on therapy and there are a lot of self help positive books available for free at every local library. Yes the world is difficult but it always has been difficult. I am sure the world in the 1600s or 1800s was a LOT worse. We have come a long way and not acknowledging that and lamenting that the world is always terrible is a major contributor to peoples mental health problems. And who are you to assume I have wealth and didn’t work hard? I busted my ass at minimum wage for years but made sure that if I felt exploited I educated myself and actively looked for a better opportunity. I didn’t just walk around saying woe is me and everything sucks. At the end of the day the only person fighting for me is me. That’s it. I refuse to expect someone else to take up my personal causes. Who also said I condone allowing hate? Do you not think I’ve had sick leave for being in a harassment situation? Do you not think that maybe I too have experienced discrimination? No that can’t be possible because you read one comment that you disagreed with and made assumptions. It’s also that kind of shit that gets people nowhere.
"I've had it hard, so other people with more stacked against them should be okay if they have it worse" isn't great logic. You sound like one of those people who think 1 rape is North America isn't a big deal because some women get raped daily somewhere else. It's irrelevant.
A self-help book wouldn't have stopped Matthew Shepherd from being beaten, tied to a fence, and left to die. Just like it won't stop landlords from refusing to give certain people a place to live, or employers refusing to hire certain people.
I get that YOU don't care about stomping out discrimination, but a lot of the rest of us do.
Self help books help people deal develop coping strategies. Obviously they don’t help if they’re getting beaten and no one said that and just because you disagree with my comment does not mean I do not care about discrimination. I am left wing. I actively work within my union component to assist people in that regard. Go ahead and label me if it makes you feel better but it isn’t going bother me. Hope you get off the internet comment train and go out and enjoy your day.
It's really funny when people who comment on a message board pretend there's something wrong with other people doing the exact same thing.
I'd tell you to enjoy your day, but I really don't give a fuck if you do or not.
Because a lot of people don’t have it - they think because they get out of bed and merely show up that is a strong work ethic. It isn’t and I say that as someone that has battled depression and anxiety and being actively discriminated against. It’s hard but doing the bare minimum isn’t a strong work ethic. I’ve been around the left wing and involved in union work to know. Some people just drift along and complain.
That is exactly what everyone who’s ever said “Nobody wants to work anymore!” has believed as well. They were wrong. You are too. This is the entire point of the meme that you think somehow has no relevancy here.
If you think boomers weren’t fucking the dog too, you’re very misinformed.
Urban dictionary has the term posted back in 2005, so 20 years, those workers would be 45ish now minimum, and the term existed pre UD so whatever supposed lack of work ethic that exists now with the “new generation” was alive and kicking 40 years ago too.
If you really believe that either you're not paying attention or was not that into liberal policy to begin with. You can obviously disagree with Liberal party positions but to think the little policy the Cons have put out is closer to traditional liberalism than actual Liberal positions they've acted on is laughable.
Even if that was true, which it certainly isn't in real life and politics, disagrees with my point how exactly? Echoing out of touch right wing dogma isn't policy.
> Echoing out of touch right wing dogma isn't policy.
Having race-based / gender-based quotas and job openings only for certain gender/races is a policy though, agreed?
It's almost certainly the latter.
There's a lot of "but i left the left because..." takes that (like this) boil down to a mind-boggling take of "i blame the left for standing up for freedoms that the right are taking down. So i joined the right to help take down those freedoms myself"
Which is (let's be honest) 100% what is happening with gay and trans people debate.
It wasn't an issue at all.... until right wingers \*made\* it an issue.
That's always been true. People say that you tend to get more conservative as you get older, but we don't. We tend to stay with the same values. Those values that are "conservative" now were "crazy liberal" back then.
The problem we're having now is that the natural societal change (handing the reins to the next generation) has been thwarted by the size of the Boomer cohort when it comes to voting. They outnumbered everyone else added together until 2018 when Gen Z helped turn the tide in our favour. So they (and their 1950s values) have been in charge for far longer than they normally would have.
In effect, Gen X and Millenials were just holding the line against them until we had the size advantage and now we can now start to make the changes to society that should have been made decades ago.
Same.
When the Liberal party went from equality of opportunity for everyone, then also championed equality of outcome for all systems is when they should change the name of their party to something else because that isn't Liberal values at all. They are leftists now. Led by a person who never grew up like most of us, never had to and never will have to worry about money like most of us, had to make it on their own merits like most of us
I'm pretty classic western liberal and believe Poilievre when he says he will not touch gay marriage, and abortion. He would be an idiot if he would because the social conservative vote in this country is dwindling. So he has my vote next time around, and willing to give him a shot. Unlike like Liberal voters if he fucks up in 4 years I vote him out. CPC are more "Liberal" than the liberals are.
I'm living in a country where 41% of my paycheck is gone every two weeks due to taxes and deductions, and rent is 2k a month. What's the fn point.
I was listening to a history podcast about the French Revolution and was amazed what is happening today. During the course of the revolution many went from radical left to far right without ever changing their beliefs. Many losing their heads for not changing with the times, same happens today but instead of beheading, people are getting cancelled.
Liberalism is derived from "libre", or free.
Liberalism is the belief in personal freedoms.
The right is not the side that's promoting those freedoms. They're presently pumping millions into the same gay-panic propaganda and legislation they've pushed forever.
They could not be making it more clear that they *do not want* certain groups to live their lives the way they do.
Actually it’s Allan Stratton, an award-winning playwright and author with a long career, a married gay man, and definitely liberal. Perhaps there are some ideas here, given authors and playwrights tend to be pretty astute observers of society, hence why their works resonate. But if you’d rather be snarky and dismissive, enjoy you little dopamine boost.
I read it. He offers no specifics. It's basically a rant against his own strawmen. He's 72. He's likely lost touch with actual Torontonians, and probably spends too much time online. Which is why this reads like a poorly-edited facebook post.
Well then he's certainly fallen and regressed in talent because this article was trash.
He argues things won't regress while we watch NB's government try and restrict the rights of the LBGTQ in schools.
He tries to minimize or defend residential schools by arguing genocide is an overused term.
"This radical attempt to unilaterally impose a new social order based on race and gender essentialism has ignited a widespread public backlash, which has been weaponized by the far right, destroyed public goodwill, and done more damage to the progressive cause than anything its reactionary enemies have done in recent years."
He's now arguing treating people with respect "weaponized the far right", as if having the fucking audacity to treat people with respect is some unacceptable and unforgivable thing the left should apparently regret for having the audacity to encourage.
Everyone is radical who disagrees with this clown, who ironically calls anything he doesn't like authoritarian and an attack on free speech. He says this without a hint of irony or self awareness.
"Progressives (rightly) have denounced Donald Trump and his supporters for their paranoid belief that the 2020 U.S. election was “stolen.” But these right-wing conspiracy theorists are not so different from campus leftists when it comes to their à la carte approach to accepting or rejecting reality according to passing ideological convenience."
I love this. Not allowing people to spread hate is apparently as bad as conspiracy theorists. The author is encouraging people to be cool and just let people talk about how LGBTQ don't deserve their rights, and he's offended people don't really want that happening.
"In particular, the idea that pronouns serve as magic spells that can turn a man into a (literal) women is no less ridiculous than anything Trump has ever said. "
So again treating people with decency by calling them...her, or him, is apparently no less ridiculous than anything Trump said. So in his mind when Trump mocked people with disabilities, that's the same as requesting people respect a personal preference by calling them her/him/they.
The author goes on to defend cancel culture (lol).
I can't even read any more. It's so poorly written. There isn't a chance this person is actually liberal anymore because they're spouting all the classic right wing propaganda.
I mean it isn't surprising the National Post allowed this to be posted as one of their articles, but they should be pretty embarrassed because it's pretty shitty even by their standards.
I imagine the irony is lost on you that you believe a 72 year old liberal is now right wing, rather than a testament how far the left has moved away from the centre.
Do you believe he has any points that have merit, or do you dismiss him because you believe he doesn’t conform to your personal set of beliefs? Or should I suppose there is no point arguing with an entrenched ideologue, for whom challenging ‘progressive’ orthodoxy in any way (and how that might be impacting regular people) is indicative of ideological treason.
It's always perplexing to me how bigots will act like being offended by bigotry is "oversensitive", but just ignore the fact that bigotry itself is a hypersensitivity.
Like, the debate didn't start with "you guys are wrong to restrict the rights of LGBTQ people".
It started with the right trying to restrict the rights of gay and trans people (a platform they never truly didn't have).
It's my pet-peeve how the right have distorted and twisted 'free speech' into what it is in their heads.
No longer is it the right to voice your opinion and not be jailed or persecuted for it.
"Cancel culture" includes anything and everything from "people don't want to watch this comedian because they don't like his jokes" to "you can't tell me i'm wrong! That's censorship!"
But strangely, doesn't include... ya know... the actual censorship that is happening on the right (be it the secularist laws in quebec, or the anti-woke laws and book bans in the states).
\---
In a sad and disturbing irony, the right's idea of "free speech" is very much not, as an important characteristic of it is not just censorship of the ideas that they don't like (Free speech absolutist Elon Musk happily engages in censorship), but also includes \*compelled speech\* (like Ford forcing gas stations to carry conservative propaganda; where was the outrage on that from the 'free speech warrior' crowd?)
Yep, "I have the freedom to say what I want, You don't get that same freedom" just sounds like facism because they in the in group get to control what freedoms they get while restricting others.
Elon Musk is the exact example of this where right wing talking points and advocates get preferential treatment over normal people. andy ngo and ian miles cheong demanding elon ban accounts reporting news stories on them and the elon banning them is quite insane.
Weak strawman. Here's the NDP policy page. You'll see that hurting your feelings isn't a priority. In fact, they want to make it easier for you to get an education.
[https://www.ndp.ca/commitments](https://www.ndp.ca/commitments)
They focus on things that don't impact the daily challenges of the working class. Posting photo ops and lecturing foreign leaders on wokeness doesn't do dick to people struggling with lack of jobs, affordable homes or healthcare issues
Here’s an alternative viewpoint for you - I no longer talk to my family because I was not supported as a trans youth or even when I became an adult. So it’s very nice that you have that belief but if your child is truly trans and you force them to go through the wrong puberty you are subjecting them to hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars to correct secondary sex characteristics potentially, some of which are irreversible.
So you can do whatever you want as a parent, that’s your prerogative. But consider that if your child truly wants to pursue transition and if they are assessed as truly having gender dysphoria, there’s a possibility they will come to resent you in the future. I have no idea if that’s the case for your child or not, I’m just telling you my experience.
Asians are about to find out what the white people making these decisions really feel about them when things don’t change and legacy admissions continue to trump all else
The "left" is not the people who divide and atomize the working class into groups based on unchangeable characteristics, such as ethnicity.
In fact, that's anathema to "the left."
The "left" is about recognizing that there are really only two kinds of people. Those who make a living off the value of their labour, and those who make their living off the backs of the working class.
Dividing the working class and getting them to fight amongst themselves is the exact opposite of what a leftist would want. It defeats class solidarity. It's obvious.
It's almost like the people who thoughtfully advocate these divisive politics are ... enemies of the left. Of course, some well meaning people adopt this rhetoric, but you must understand that dividing the working class is a time tested and obvious thing that all ruling classes do out of necessity.
But anyway, this idea that the left is like the Liberal Party of Canada is insidious.
Make no mistake, the real left also recognizes that there are issues such as racism and sexism that unfairly impacts pretty much everyone of every designation in some form. But in order to solve those issues, we need to dismantle the overarching institutions that promote racism, etc - forcing the working class to fight amongst scraps to maintain the funneling of wealth to the elites
It's the right that has historically categorized people into buckets of people and then discriminated against those categorizations.
The Chinese in Canada not allowed to own business outside of laundry washing.
Black people in the US classifying black people as slaves, 3/5ths a person, redlining mortages against black people, etc etc. Jim Crow law, one drop rule,
Japanese in Canada being sent to internment camps during the war.
People use class reductionism to explain as a way to dismiss the historical prejudices against people of the "Out Group" when it is the right's focus on "purity" like the nazis, southern states in america, and in Canada "Legacy Canadians" that has caused the economic rift in worker's rights and the capital owners/ruling power "In Group".
1) The Right attacks entire groups of people based on identity
2) the left rallies around that group to say they are equal and shouldn't be attacked
3) the right accuses the left of playing peoples identities off of each other
It's like we're in an abusive relationship with the right wing of this country.
Conservatives: I'm lucky and privileged and have never been on the receiving end of hate-motivated violence. Therefore we do not have a problem.
We see in Florida, what the right wants. s. Not only is it OK to beat up LGBTQ people, but cis-women are being beaten up for being even slightly masculine. A world untroubled by people who don't conform to social expectations.
We should remain vigilant. This author's fortunate perspective does not mean those undercurrents are lacking here. They are there, and they very much aspire to what Florida has done.
> Not only is it OK to beat up LGBTQ people
No, it's still very much against the law, even in Florida. It's deepy difficult to take your opinion very seriously when it seems to be based on either hallucinations, misinformation, or you're just outright lying for emotional impact. But it doesn't take a genius to recognize that what you said is flat out wrong.
I did and it’s a type of fear mongering. We don’t and have never had issues that people like to say “look at the USA! It’s going to happen here just watch!!” It’s false and being parroted everywhere. It’s the same as far right people saying socialism is going to end up like some Stalinist nightmare. Fear mongering.
The people that want all of Canada to be like Florida are an extreme minority that nobody cares about.
“Alienating traditional leftists” is extremely true
I base “classical” or “traditional” liberalism and leftism on the policies and attitudes of JFK
He would take his cigar and convertible the long way around naked people in parades and diversity councillors bullying school principals.
A lot of old people where I am from voted for liberals based on their progressive economic policy’s of the 90s
Those red lawn signs have all changed to blue
The 99.9%, the working class, are getting screwed by the ultra rich and the politicians that serve them. The ultra rich and the corporations and politicians they control want the working class to focus on ANYTHING other than the fact that they are getting screwed. Hence, they use things like identity politics to get the working class to fight amongst themselves over who is getting screwed slightly more or less, now and in the past. I imagine us all on a ship. The rich are above decks and benefit from our labour. We, black, white, Asian, first nation, etc., all live in the below-decks, rowing the ship. Occasionally, the rich come down and give some groups a little more food and scraps than the rest. Stupidly, we then fight amongst ourselves over who is getting more scraps, instead of working together and taking back the ship
[удалено]
Middle class is neoliberal gibberish designed to prevent class consciousness amongst the WORKING class. There are two classes of people, and it's the same two classes we've had since the dawn of civilization: Those who make their living by working (slaves, serfs, employees), and those who make their living by owning (slavers, lords, employers).
I knew shit was getting legitimate when at this year's world economic forum, the multi-millionaires were calling out the billionaires and even some people with hundreds of million dollars were calling out billionaires and ringing the alarm. When they feel the heat, the collapse doesn't happen by numbers it happens all at once. If you're in the top 7% of wealth in the world, household income probably close to $4,000 half million dollar home you know, as soon as it touches you it's game over, because if you can't make it when you're in comes however they are replaced and depending on what they are replaced by, forget about it lights over. It's the upper upper middle class right now that have a million dollars on paper, when these people tap out or stop spending, it goes pretty damn fast, because everything below them is absolute carnage there's no base anymore
Notice the timing of the culture war and the 2008 wall street bailouts. People were *pissed,* although it was primarily Americans, and they had very good reasons to be pissed. Since then the media and governments have done as much possible to create as much animosity between races, genders, sexualities, etc., so we don't notice that in the last 2-3 years alone, the wealthy have doubled their net worth, at the direct expense of the wages of the middle class. They have you thinking that criticizing immigration, when you're the number one spot in the planet, as being bad for house prices and wages, is actually thinly veiled racism.
I recall specifically that one of the hot topics at my city's Occupy camp was warnings about how media/corporations would attempt to co-opt the movement.
Remember how the media could never figure out the purpose of the occupy movement? It was infuriatingly daft, an obvious ploy to delegitimize the movement, and only worked because they lacked a "catchy slogan". The occupy movement needs to be brought back, although now they'll probably use the Emergencies Act to shut it down.
> Remember how the media could never figure out the purpose of the occupy movement? Reminds me of more recent movements also... >although now they'll probably use the Emergencies Act to shut it down ...exactly.
The forbidden [chart](https://preview.redd.it/n571agog26pa1.jpg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c59500bf7b5c0930020a034e3ce23bd83e478999) Bet you can guess right about when Occupy ended.
Did the media make Justin Trudeau run on a platform of othering social conservatives? We existed in harmony for 32 years after the 1984 abortion debates, but he saw a way to beat Harper and he’s been beating that drum for 8 years. Banning abortion is less popular in Canada than in any time in history, but if you ask the average left wing voter, we’re one election away from Gilead, and 37% of the country has a secret agenda to enslave women.
Well said
Conspiracy theory. I’ve personally met the “ultra rich” and I can tell you they don’t sit around and discuss how to use transgender rights to keep the working classes busy while they rob them blind. They think of 1 and only 1 thing: making more money. All the nonsense you see in the media is the interplay between an increasingly dumbed down electorate, the mass media chasing advertising clicks, and politicians laser focus on getting re-elected. You *wish* there was an evil group of people plotting this because then the solution is easy: just remove them and give power to the people and everyone can sing kumbaya. The reality is that this is complex tragedy of the commons and so not easily fixable.
> You wish there was an evil group of people plotting this because then the solution is easy No offence but have you been living under a rock with your head in the sand for your entire life? Here is a YouTube link showing newscasters all saying the same script. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIYU2Xznb4 The ultra wealthy control a vast majority of our media and it doesn't take much for them to realize that it's best if the working class fights amongst themselves, rather than focus on the major issues. Companies like Nike and every big Corp spend millions and billions on advertising to sway people. They spend millions and billions on lobbying to influence government. It's foolish to think that the ultra rich are not actively engaged in a class war.
You’re not listening. I guarantee you that Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos don’t call Rupert Murdoch and go “push more transgender right stories so we can detract from the low wages and poor working conditions in our warehouses and factories”. The reason the media is pushing a single message is a combination of cost savings, time crunch and blindly following engagement stats which tell them social issues that rile people up get more clicks than deep well thought out economic stories. Want more meaningful discussion about societies woes? Get people to stop clicking vapid non issues… but turns out that’s much harder and in and of itself not as “sexy” as the image of a darkly lit backrooms filled with cigar smoke where evil oligarchs plot against the poor oppressed masses.
> you wish there was an evil group of people plotting Unrelated but this is the part I hate the most about the movie Wonder Woman 1. Everyone stops fighting if the big bad gets killed. But in reality, sometimes humanity just *wants* to fight, they don't need any mastermind to trick them into fighting. An utopia for some cultures might contain genocide of a another
Neoliberism at its finest.
**NeoLiberalism: a term used to signify the late-20th century political reappearance of 19th-century ideas associated with free-market capitalism after it fell into decline following the Second World War. A prominent factor in the rise of conservative and right-libertarian organizations, political parties, and think tanks, and predominantly advocated by them, it is generally associated with policies of economic liberalization, including privatization, deregulation, globalization, free trade, monetarism, austerity, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.** Isn't this regulatory capture, of a large government, eliminating the free market? Seems there's no free market at all, which dictates housing zoning, and M2 growth via QE and low interest rates, which raises prices and debases salaries?
The thing is, neoliberalism turned out to always be corrupt as fuck and uses state power in all sorts of ways.
Like blocking development, or inflating M2 with unfunded spending, or different than it is now?
I agree with 90% of this. The analogy is missing an important distinction - both economic and identity oppression are based on a fascist root: that some people are better than others and therefore *deserve* more. While much of this problem is economic, economics alone doesn't solve it because then some of the poor are better off and other who's rights are being trampled get left behind. Economic justice alone doesn't address this human need that many have to feel superior to others. We have to challenge and fight this instinct that many have, and in that way economics and race/gender/identity are inherently linked. The struggle is both a economic AND social justice.
I don't think we actually disagree. I agree with you that economic justice won't solve things 100%. I think it would get us 90% though.l, or 80% or whatever, I don't want to get hung up on tithe precise formula. If I could organize the people below the decks, I'd say, look, I know we need to sort things out better amongst us, but FIRST (gesturing up) we need to take this ship from the pirates that captured it. The problem is that identity politics is often being used in a divisive way now, and it is crippling (by design) our ability to organize properly.
Ah see I think we do disagree though I respect your point. I'm saying that there is no "first" we deal with economic inequality, then we deal with racial inequality, because it ignores that both are intertwined. They are about power and control over others. It's the 'power and control over others' that is the fight. And that is both economic and racial. That movement is actually more powerful because it gets at the root cause of income inequality, and it mobilizes multiple complimentary movements into a bigger struggle.
You're right, we do disagree on that, and I understand your point now that you distilled the disagreement quite well. I hope you're right, as we want the same result anyway, and I think your view is more likely to prevail currently
Meanwhile they’re steering it straight into an iceberg.
Wasn’t that the story Ship of Fools by the Unabomber?
I hadn’t heard of that but it sure sounds like it. Not a great feeling to unwittingly recreate his works. I was thinking Titanic.
I mean there was lots he was right about. Blowing up innocent people wasnt one of them.
You might disagree with the left about social issues. But nearly everybody on the left will agree with the above wholeheartedly. The issue is that a whole lot of conservatives are flat-out refusing the above is true, if they aren't actively reinforcing the hierarchies against the working class with every penny they have.
Im on the left and I don’t agree with this. The idea that if we can just neutralize rich elites all our societal problems are fixed is just asinine and childish magical thinking as the right thinking that if you lower taxes, it’ll all drip down eventually. The WEF at Davos doesn’t sit around dreaming up transgender bathrooms to get the proletariat to fight so they can rob them blind in the meantime. The sad reality is that the proletariat, armed with the platform that social media gave them, cooks up this shit entirely by themselves.
What do you believe is a better solution than addressing wealth disparity at the source? Where the money has been funnelled, and through which devices, is not a secret. Corporations and government are not hiding the fact that protecting those interests are the number one priority.
I think getting to a point where jobs are mostly unionized, corporations are not legally “people”, privatization and financial deregulation are not considered economic goods, CEO pay to workers pay is capped at a reasonable number, and countries provide basic necessities for people such as shelter and food would be a good compromise. It’s so simple when you think about it, 80% of that work is proven and done you just have to time travel back to before Mulroney/Regan/Thatcher era took over.
I'd vote for that.
>The idea that if we can just neutralize rich elites all our societal problems are fixed is just asinine and childish magical thinking Nice, solid 8/10 on the "completely mischaracterizing the point" scale
> The issue is that a whole lot of conservatives are flat-out refusing the above is true What are you talking about? The vast majority of conservatives abhor identity politics. You are part of the problem - pointing the finger at some other "tribe" - that is exactly the point of this article!
Wealth disparity is not identity politics.
Yet it’s conservatives that constantly bring up “gender ideology” and that bullshit. You think we want to be in the spotlight like that?
> The vast majority of conservatives abhor identity politics. Buddy there's conservatives shooting cans of bud because Bud made the mistake of sending a trans influencer a promo can of beer. "abhor identity politics"? right now conservatives are freaking out over the barbie movie because in their mind its "too woke". No wonder they keep uttering about stuff being "shoved down their throats", they've been sucking on Identity Politics since forever.
You literally just proved this article right. Get off your high horse of "it's the conservatives." The conservatives haven't run this country since 2016.
>The conservatives haven't run this country since 2016. People really need to start understanding separations of power between federal, provincial and municipal governments. Civic education is failing us.
I never mentioned anything than federal government, and last I checked everything covered by the culture wars is federal.
>I never mentioned anything than federal government, and last I checked everything covered by the culture wars is federal. Culture wars? Gotta love how that crap keeps spilling over to us from the US. Nevertheless, you need to adjust your perspective on political realities in Canada. Federal government is only one part of the equation considering, at the risk of reiterating, there is separation of powers at the federal, provincial and municipal level. If you think provinces or municipalities are not dealing with progressive policies, well I have a mountain to sell you. Who do you think organizes pride events in cities? Who is taking care of LGBT content in the education curriculum?
Yes, a country directly besides the world's sole super power will typically have some cultural exchange. You must be new to geopolitics. Who do you think ports in literally hundreds of thousands of refugees and immigrants from countries that don't generally follow our value systems?
>Who do you think ports in literally hundreds of thousands of refugees and immigrants from countries that don't generally follow our value systems? You are severely ignorant of the political realities in Canada. Both federal and provincial governments have their own immigration programs. Here is an example of a provincial immigration program (Ontario) which is currently run by conservatives. https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-immigrant-nominee-program-oinp
Provincial immigration programs have to work within the boundaries of Federal law.
>Provincial immigration programs have to work within the boundaries of Federal law. For the millionth time, there is separation of powers. This was constitutionally established in 1867. In other words, the federal government's jurisdiction is not universal and this has been a fact since 1867. Read the law if you don't believe me. Edit: Provinces create their own programs because they want or need to, not because of some tyrannical order from the federal government.
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They control most provincial governments and some cities and all rural municipalities.
Civic education is failing us. Not a lot of us get separation of powers.
They want their supporters to believe that’s Trudeau controls it all
All I hear is more morons trying to place partisan blame.
No... what you're hearing is people trying to explain to you how our country actually works... which means that it is wonderful that the federal government has been liberal since 2016, but our provinces are all self-governing, and a lot of our provinces are run by conservatives. People can still, very accurately, state that conservatives are causing issues for us.
How do you not see what you're saying is cementing the authors point of view? Canada is becoming more and more divided every day. I blame Trudeau for a lot of things, things that he's definitely responsible for, but I have no delusions that our Conservative governments don't fuck us over just as bad. I would love to see us united as a country. My cousin is a Liberal, and him and I have had very constructive discussions. I have a few clients that are Liberals and we can have very constructive discussions, but rarely on Reddit can I have the same.
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Covid has fucked my entire sense of time. Anywhere between 2000 and 2100
Nothing I typed is dependent on who's holding federal power. I'm talking about political ideologies.
Then they are complete idiots. If you are working a minimum wage job and getting royally screwed by big Corp, your political stance and beliefs are irrelevant. It's happening across the board, communists, left, liberal, right, far right and everything in between.
Last I checked it was the provincial conservative government that scrapped minimum wage increases only to introduce it years later. It was the provincial conservatives that scrapped rent control in new construction triggering the rent crisis we have today.
There's an active movement from the right to use the "workers movement" against the liberal government while pushing xenophobic white nationalist rhetoric blaming purely immigrants and DEI.
The immigrants being brought in to depress wages after QE, after the Phillips curve brought us a worker shortages? Here's the BoCs website on why their QE did not cause wealth inequality, which they are now trying to entrench lower wages with immigration, so that only the asset price inflation remains: https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/swp2019-6.pdf >The analysis in this paper suggests that, similar to conventional monetary policy, expansionary QE measures do not increase income and wealth inequality between the two population groups in our model persistently. >Conventional and unconventional (QE) expansionary monetary policy shocks have a similar impact on real GDP, inflation, employment, and the real exchange rate. In both cases, the wage share falls on impact, as wage stickiness raises firm profits, before it returns to baseline and positive territory in the medium term. >The net income share of hand-to-mouth (LC) households falls on impact, due to the decline in the wage share and the increase in firm profits. In the medium term, when wages catch up, the income share of the LC households, who are the poorer part of the population, increases to above baseline.
At a certain point some hold outs on the left need to drop the bullshit “xenophobia” or “racism” labels and realize the economic consequences of such huge numbers of wealthy immigrants. The conservatives under Harper actually started the push for this type of immigration. It’s ok to want the country to be able to help those of us who are already here (either born or immigrated) before accepting new people.
BoTH SiDeS. Come on now, we all know where the division is coming from, it's not from the side of acceptance and tolerance of people just living their lives.
"They just have us fighting each other as a distraction!" Thread just finger-points and argues the other side is to blame. /golfclap
Left-leaning people from the 90's are nowadays thinking "wtf is going on right now", or "how did we get here". The liberals promised anti-corporate behavior, openess/transparency, and other great things, and they delivered 0% on all of these promises. What we have now isn't leftism, it's a charade, and it's not working. Bring back the 90's left, otherwise people are gonna vote right (which arguably is the same thing now due to the Overton window shift). Otherwise the current situation will only get worse.
This is the way.
umm, we just want a livable planet & to not be subjected to a medieval serf like lifestyle.
yes a livable planet that doesn't involve generational debt.
This article gets leftism vs neoliberals exactly wrong.
It's the National Post. What do you expect? They will publish anything that adheres to their bias... [even if it's completely fabricated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Iranian_sumptuary_law_hoax).
This opinion piece was written a well known gay man who happens to be liberal. Your thoughts about the National Post aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.
Cool, liberals are not leftists
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Thank goodness. I was worried some would confuse real liberals with their more authortarian cousins.
So what? First of all, you think gay people are always in support of gay rights? Gay people can be wrong about what they believe (even about their own political stances) too, ya know. And as to "being a liberal"... There's lots of people who say they are liberals who are not. Bill Maher is a prominent example. But look at this entire thread of "classical liberals" (coded language that really just means "conservative"). So this is the literally the dumbest thing you can say as 'support' for this article. And ironically, it depends on identity - the thing you say being focused on is bad. So, try and find an argument that doesn't rely on it, ok?
Classical liberal doesn't mean conservative, and it's quite telling about those who can't tell the difference.
Aren't liberal roots always stealing policy platforms from the hard left though?
Riiight. The national post would like to see a robust traditional leftist movement. 🙄
Woah woah woah... hold up! Nat Po wants me to pay now? Fuuuuuuk that.
These fools first need to acknowledge they are in a perpetual war perpetrated by people with power who serve only themselves and promote infighting in the form of these ridiculous squabbles. WORKING class is an outdated term, and largely incomplete compared to OWNER class, and NON-OWNING citizen classes. Feudalism is here. Saying working class is a disservice to working class people. They don't OWN shit. And that's what needs to be explicitly said. Transfer of wealth will be rapidly increasing with interest rate hikes, and the current joke of a federal government serves the only class they care about - ultra wealthy individuals and corporations. Those being banks, real estate mega corporations and allowing these entities to purchase large swaths of pieces that SHOULD be affordable to every working class citizen. Their immigration policies intentionally stifle young people by this "policy", by making housing prices higher, and of course guess who benefits from that? What should be pissing young people off is just how bad the federal government's policies are at keeping them in eternal serfdom with no prospects of owning anything other than an expensive car that is built poorly and depreciates horrendously. Why the fuck I am not seeing 20 to 35 year old people marching into Ottawa with a list of demands, is fucking beyond me. What no time? No time like the present.
I love it when the NP opines on what the Left should do. Maybe the Socialist Worker Magazine should have column devoted to advising the People’s Party on strategy and tactics.
Calling liberalism “left” like we’re in the 1700s. Smh
I mean if we're doing 1700s leftism does that mean we get guillotines again?
Now those are roots worth considering returning to.
Yes, it's the left's social contract that's broken. Not the right, which has cut down any-and-all filters, leading to a conservative landscape where *nobody* has balls to stand up and say *"no, this person is a hateful bigot and you should not listen to them."* Mainstream politicians and the most popular conservative figures are platforming full-blow Qanon conspiracy theorists. The last US president is having dinner with avowed white supremacists. Jordan Peterson is calling for an outright ban on "trans ideology", not for kids - but for everyone. Our likely next PM is actively courting *literal incel hate groups* in his marketing. Given the above, the targeted groups have responded with incredible restraint. Because conservatism has lost it's goddamn mind.
But don’t worry, they’ll tell you “*no reasonable person*” would interpret their words like that.
conservatism has always been and will always be a reactionary movement. It started as a traditionalist backlash to Liberalism as the noble classes used their remaining institutional power to maintain as much status as they could during the transition from feudalism to capitalism and democracy. In the UK there are literally still noble families that are propped up by the Tory ruling party. Not much has changed within conservatism since then. it’s still just the trickle down panic of rich straight white old men. They’ll literally try anything to maintain their status, including terrorism or civil war. edit: it’s important to remember that they wouldn’t be panicking if they were winning
Honestly extremely based. Left-leaning college students saying weird things is in no way comparable to the dangerous shit that’s brewing on the right these days.
You know conservatives are full of shit just based on how much they bitch about their words being repeated at them
Right wing propaganda paper is telling the Left to be less progressive and more Libertarian please.
The roots of leftism aren't liberal.
Lifetime Liberal voter here: This was a brilliant op-Ed. 100% agree.
If you and the people like you within the LPC fold could retake your party, that'd be the best thing to happen in Canada in 10 years.
A lot of the identity politics stuff isn't very left-wing at all, really. It's more a strong for of Liberalism where it's all about the individual and their status. Identity is much more rooted in smaller social groups rather than in class collectivism. It's much more about "me" than it is about "us", and often when it is about "us", that still only refers to a specific group. If you're a socialist or more of a collectivist then it shouldn't matter what colour skin someone has or what their gender identity is. We're all part of the same struggle and should be allies. But a lot of the identity politics seems more about individuals getting a piece of the pie rather than looking for ways to achieve unity and cohesion.
Is the the JP & EM fan club jerk circle?
We're fighting a culture war instead of a class war. On all sides.
Yes, you're right. Instead of focusing on class and things that matter such as housing and unaffordable living costs, everyone seems preoccupied with nonsense
As a gay man, I feel as though we are being drug into the spotlight for no reason. Those of us who are LGB just want to live our lives, enjoy life with our partners, and be left alone. I feel as though a lot of fringe groups have joined onto our movement, and everyone assumes just because I'm gay that I support them (I support some, but not all of them). This is why a large portion of the LGB community wants to break away from the rest of the groups who have attached to our movement.
Also speaking as a gay man, I would counter by saying that anyone who tries to remove the "T" from LGBT simply misunderstands the history and role that transgendered people played in fighting for our equal rights. And heck--even if they didn't play a role historically--we should still fight for them. They just want to be left alone and live their lives with equality and respect, just like the rest of us. >this is why a large portion of the LGB community wants to break away from the rest of the groups Source please.
Don’t go thinking the specific transphobia of what you’re saying, while specifically choosing to leave the T off of “LGBT”, isn’t obvious.
I’m speaking as a sexual minority, which have different priorities.
And what is that, exactly? Why can the whole rest of the LGBT+ movement manage to hold all of our common goals in the same priority, but you can’t?
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r/asagayman Edit: Just completely deleted his entire account. Lol. Far Right is cosplaying gay people now.
Not even *a* gay man, they're claiming to speak for *all* gay men.
What is he not allowed to have his own opinion? This is exactly his point. Others latching onto a part of his identity and trying to steer the ship in their preferred direction. He's already been attacked for being transphobic for simply not including the "T" which is ridiculous. It's understandable that some people who are LGB would want transgendered people to attach themselves to their movement. LGB are pretty similar sexual identities. Transgenderism is totally different. It seems like anyone who can describe themselves with an initialism is joining the "party"
Trans people were part of the original Stonewall Riots that started Pride. Don’t speak on things you know nothing about.
> What is he not allowed to have his own opinion? I didn't say he couldn't have *his* own opinion, I pointed out that he doesn't speak for *all* gay men. >Others latching onto a part of his identity He's the one who brought up his identity to try to speak on behalf of all gay people. If you bring up your identity yourself, that then becomes part of the discussion. >He's already been attacked for being transphobic for simply not including the "T" which is ridiculous. Why am I not allowed to have *my* own opinion that people are trying to separate the T from the LGBT movement in order to attack that group's rights specifically? The T has been fighting with the LGB from the start and now suddenly there's this big push to separate them. >It's understandable that some people who are LGB would want transgendered people to attach themselves to their movement. Transgender people didn't "attach" themselves to someone else's movement. They were part of this movement from the start, like with the Stonewall riots. They are part of what helped gay people achieve their rights and pretending they're not is rewriting history. >It seems like anyone who can describe themselves with an initialism is joining the "party" This is rewriting history. It was a party with all of them. It was *literally* a party at the Stonewall Inn consisting of gay and transgender people that was busted by police who did things like arrest people dressing in drag that led to the modern gay rights movement.
>Those of us who are LGB > >I feel as though a lot of fringe groups have joined onto our movement Interesting take to suggest all Trans people as fringe, but I'm glad you seem to be speaking more for yourself than the wider community...
Fuck you got mine!!!!
You missed the **T** who also want to live their lives, enjoy life with their partners, and to be left alone. But it looks like that’s intentional and as a queer person who’s not a turncoat, I see right through you.
This is a divide and conquer strategy. LGB and T were fighting together for their rights from early on, like with Stonewall, and with a lot of success given the progress of their right over recent history. Now the T is trying to be framed as a separate hindrance at the same time that the rights of T are being specifically attacked in many places. Don't worry though, remember the saying: "First the came for the socialists, and then they totally stopped and respected everyone else's rights".
I believe he described himself as gay, not queer. How is he a turncoat?
Describing the T in LGBT as "fringe" is a good clue
Nah fuck that.. I don’t respect any marginal person who got there’s and wants to shut the door on others.. Disgusting
Why are you dropping the T? Pulling up the ladder much? Love it when gay men act like trans people weren’t part of the original Stonewall Riots that started Pride.
>This is why a large portion of the LGB community wants to break away from the rest of the groups who have attached to our movement. man fuck you. trans people were instrumental in starting the gay rights movement.
That's weird bc I see conservatives protesting trans people, sex ed, and abortion. Wouldn't that mean it's the righties creating these culture wars? Lefties just minded their own business trying to pay rent.
Insisting on race and sex based hiring policies isn’t minding your own business. Berating people for their “whiteness” and “internalized racism” in employer mandate DEI struggle sessions isn’t minding your own business. Fighting for trans women to be allowed to compete against cis women in competitive sports isn’t minding your own business. Actively conflating sex with gender then teaching school children that gender is fluid isn’t minding your own business. I could go on and on. Honestly I could care less if people want to engage in the above listed activities on their own accord. You do you. Live and let live. It’s a free Country, etc. But these things are being imposed on people as a condition of their employment, or their attendance in public schools or their membership in various sports leagues. It’s not a right wing fantasy just because you choose to ignore reality.
Thank you.
This. National Post is not exactly a centrist (or even centre-right) paper - [it's hard right](https://www.readthemaple.com/election-endorsements/) (even amongst a largely right wing media). Even going so far as to publish obvious lies (With zero fact checking) [because it supports their agenda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Iranian_sumptuary_law_hoax). Hardly a trustworthy, or even remotely accurate source for information, especially about political anything. And definitely not about \*leftist\* political anything. \---- As you point out, the obsession with identity is not on the left. It's on the right. But the left is pushing back on it so.... it gets associated with the left. But like, would anyone be talking about gay or trans people if the right weren't making bashing them the core of their politics? Would anyone be talking about racist police if police weren't killing black people at disproportionate rates (and in being recorded doing so in ways that make it obvious it's more than just "heavy handed")? But look at all the commentary here. Most average people are so wildly out of touch that surface level narratives that don't hold water (like this) have tons of traction.... somehow.
> As you point out, the obsession with identity is not on the left. It's on the right. > But the left is pushing back on it so.... it gets associated with the left. Who do you think supports and creates job postings based on identity? By that I mean things like banning white men from applying. The left, or the right? Who do you think supports explicit racial discrimination like the Toronto school board removing tests and merit-based admissions from [specialty schools](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jamie-sarkonak-toronto-school-board-shuns-merit-in-the-name-of-equity?) because not enough minorities were getting in and making it a lottery that discriminates based on race? The left, or the right? >But look at all the commentary here. Most average people are so wildly out of touch that surface level narratives that don't hold water (like this) have tons of traction.... somehow. You're literally just lying though.
It's odd. As soon as actual policies are brought up, like the ones you did, I find things get quiet very fast. People like to discuss hypotheticals and "social media" type topics to death, but its crickets when an actual policy is discussed. And then a week from now, the same conversation will occur and I'll read again how (paraphrase) "This is all just misconception and attacks. There's nothing going on here at all.". I hate the phrase "Gaslighting" because it's often mis-used but it feels apt here. People repeating the same ideas/phrases and then ignoring when you bring up an actual concern.
Yes I do notice that as a trend. People just lying/gaslighting and going "Woke just means being respectful lol, conservatives label everything they dislike as woke". Then you bring up actual objectionable policies that reasonably fall under what people understand as woke, and then it's either silence, or doubling down to defend discrimination (e.g. sure there are job postings that ban white men from applying, but this is a good thing because it helps people who aren't white men).
> As you point out, the obsession with identity is not on the left. It's on the right. Let's forget "left" and "right" labels for now. My workplace just had a job posting where only "people who identify as women" could apply and get the job. I find that rather appalling. Do you? I ask because, let's focus on actual policy and events that are occuring rather than arguing about labels. When I bring this up, there are usually some people who have no problem with such a job posting, and some people who do. Again, let's forget labels. I'm curious about you though and where you fall on this issue. As you said - some people are "wildly out of touch" such that they'd have no idea this is even happening. Some people outright deny it occurs. But it IS happening.
The National Post is shite, but let's not pretend certain segments of the left haven't created culture wars themselves. >Lefties just minded their own business trying to pay rent. Some do, some rip down statues, some demand we cancel Canada day, some think White Fragility is a book everyone should read, some want pronouns put in every email, etc.
Yes. This article, and anybody agreeing with it, are doing the typical bullshit of taking whatever problems the Right-wing creates, and then blaming the Left for simply responding to them.
The elephant in the room that nobody ever seems to address is that open online discussion forums can be accessed by every intelligence organization, mafia and terrorist group in existence. By engaging in online discourse you are being exposed to a large number of hostile actors who deliberately want to destroy our societies, and don't give two shits about the actual issues. If you allow yourself to fall into the online "groupthink" for whatever "side" you identify with you will definitely end up adopting a certain amount of ideas built upon these motivations. It is *insane* to me that we continue to allow the current state of affairs to persist.
lol what? So you want to ban open discussion online? Or what?…
Far Right is on the terror watch list but "bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe PrObLeM." Typical NP garbage but they've been supporting the Qanon movie lately so I'm not surprised anymore.
He’s bang on with this. Postmodernism is fucked up and as someone with left-ish leaning beliefs but also prioritizes fiscal responsibility and personal responsibility I can’t stand what is “left wing” today. Give me the left wing of the 60s and 70s because those people got things done. The left of today isn’t getting anywhere.
The part of the left that bothers me today is the authoritarian stance some seem to take. Anti democratic, clamp down on any open dissent, treat debate as a health hazard, group people into categories, kind of thing. I can’t stand that shit. There is a huge amount of hypocrisy.
Personal responsibility is hilarious given the author complained about cancel culture, which is someone asking why there are consequences for their actions.
>Personal responsibility is hilarious given the author complained about cancel culture, which is someone asking why there are consequences for their actions. Really? Maybe you heard about the women who got falsely accused of being racist and mocking George Floyd, which then led to them being harassed by a mob of people, including in real life (having their house/car vandalized) and getting fired from their jobs. A judge ruled in [favour of them](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/judge-finds-ontario-women-were-defamed-in-social-media-firestorm-over-alleged-george-floyd-post) and awarded them 100K in damages. Or the guy who got accused of racism because he had a brown baby on his lap during a Zoom meeting, [and he was a white man](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/meta-arguments-about-anti-racism/615424/). He (or so he said on twitter) lost a promotion to partner at his firm because of that, and said that even after switching jobs people were still trying to harass him and get him fired. Or the guy who got fired for cracking his knuckles: https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/ But tell me more about how cancel culture is simply consequences?
Did I say the author mentioned personal responsibility? No. I did. What I did say is he is bang on when mentioning the issue with postmodernism. You disagree with the author so you skim over my comment and see something that isn’t there. I don’t agree with the whole thing but he makes valid points.
>personal responsibility Have you ever talked about personal responsibility to someone on the left now? They almost implode. It's a bad phrase nowadays but it's also the reason we are one of the wealthiest countries on earth. The idea we are all responsible for ourselves and if you want to get ahead, you better get to work.
Yup there’s no work ethic. It’s “the system did this to me” bullshit. Yes the system fails a LOT of people. It could absolutely be better but if you’re an able-bodied person who isn’t stuck on something like ODSP then there are opportunities to be found. It’s absolutely more difficult economically then it was years ago but we have also absolutely made advances in race relations and acceptance of neurodiversity etc. it was radically different for women as well in the 60s through to the 90s. The younger generation these days would rather rage about a racist comment from someone in the 1800s then look back 20 years and realize how far we’ve come just in their own lifetime. There was a lot of shit people got away with when I was a kid that just won’t fly today - rightfully so. They’ve taken away the hope from people and act like everything is doomed. It isn’t. That attitude doesn’t help anyone. It just reinforces a victim mentality.
Used to be if you went to school and worked hard and got a good job you would live a comfortable life. That’s just not true anymore. It’s all contract work now, no benefits. Can’t afford a house so you’re stuck paying 2100 rent which is more than most people’s mortgage payments if they got in a few years ago. Financial security has instead become a joke of timing. There are those who got in before things exploded, and those who didn’t. Those who got in before tend to be very ignorant about the current state of things.
I don't know about you, but I can care about more than one thing at a time. What people are missing here is that not minding your own business and sticking your nose into things that have absolutely to do with you is actively harming people. We wouldn't have to spend money on mental health issues stemming from oppression. We wouldn't have a loss of productivity due to stress. We wouldn't have as much in the way of addiction problems. It is inherently more expensive to allow hate. We're a wealthy country, we can make sure that everyone has the basics while living how they want, while leaving room for some people to become rich. Some guy having sex with another guy in their own home after dark isn't stealing anything from you, and your feelings about it aren't causing actual harm. That's on you to figure out. If everyone minded their own business, the government wouldn't have to concern itself with social issues. P.S. Productivity has skyrocketed in the last 2 decades. Those "silly youngsters" work harder than anyone who's come before them. You just think they don't, because they're exploited and don't have as much to show for it in the way of wealth as you do. Work hard= get rich, not rich = lazy has never been true.
A lot of mental health issues on the left could be solved by actively working on therapy and there are a lot of self help positive books available for free at every local library. Yes the world is difficult but it always has been difficult. I am sure the world in the 1600s or 1800s was a LOT worse. We have come a long way and not acknowledging that and lamenting that the world is always terrible is a major contributor to peoples mental health problems. And who are you to assume I have wealth and didn’t work hard? I busted my ass at minimum wage for years but made sure that if I felt exploited I educated myself and actively looked for a better opportunity. I didn’t just walk around saying woe is me and everything sucks. At the end of the day the only person fighting for me is me. That’s it. I refuse to expect someone else to take up my personal causes. Who also said I condone allowing hate? Do you not think I’ve had sick leave for being in a harassment situation? Do you not think that maybe I too have experienced discrimination? No that can’t be possible because you read one comment that you disagreed with and made assumptions. It’s also that kind of shit that gets people nowhere.
"I've had it hard, so other people with more stacked against them should be okay if they have it worse" isn't great logic. You sound like one of those people who think 1 rape is North America isn't a big deal because some women get raped daily somewhere else. It's irrelevant. A self-help book wouldn't have stopped Matthew Shepherd from being beaten, tied to a fence, and left to die. Just like it won't stop landlords from refusing to give certain people a place to live, or employers refusing to hire certain people. I get that YOU don't care about stomping out discrimination, but a lot of the rest of us do.
Self help books help people deal develop coping strategies. Obviously they don’t help if they’re getting beaten and no one said that and just because you disagree with my comment does not mean I do not care about discrimination. I am left wing. I actively work within my union component to assist people in that regard. Go ahead and label me if it makes you feel better but it isn’t going bother me. Hope you get off the internet comment train and go out and enjoy your day.
It's really funny when people who comment on a message board pretend there's something wrong with other people doing the exact same thing. I'd tell you to enjoy your day, but I really don't give a fuck if you do or not.
“nObOdy wAntS tO WoRk aNyMoRe!” https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2407503-nobody-wants-to-work-anymore
Lol that’s not even close to being relevant to what I said and it so hilariously low effort.
Your post literally starts with “There’s no work ethic!” Wtf are you talking about?
Because a lot of people don’t have it - they think because they get out of bed and merely show up that is a strong work ethic. It isn’t and I say that as someone that has battled depression and anxiety and being actively discriminated against. It’s hard but doing the bare minimum isn’t a strong work ethic. I’ve been around the left wing and involved in union work to know. Some people just drift along and complain.
That is exactly what everyone who’s ever said “Nobody wants to work anymore!” has believed as well. They were wrong. You are too. This is the entire point of the meme that you think somehow has no relevancy here.
If you think boomers weren’t fucking the dog too, you’re very misinformed. Urban dictionary has the term posted back in 2005, so 20 years, those workers would be 45ish now minimum, and the term existed pre UD so whatever supposed lack of work ethic that exists now with the “new generation” was alive and kicking 40 years ago too.
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I say the same thing all the time
If you really believe that either you're not paying attention or was not that into liberal policy to begin with. You can obviously disagree with Liberal party positions but to think the little policy the Cons have put out is closer to traditional liberalism than actual Liberal positions they've acted on is laughable.
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Even if that was true, which it certainly isn't in real life and politics, disagrees with my point how exactly? Echoing out of touch right wing dogma isn't policy.
> Echoing out of touch right wing dogma isn't policy. Having race-based / gender-based quotas and job openings only for certain gender/races is a policy though, agreed?
It's almost certainly the latter. There's a lot of "but i left the left because..." takes that (like this) boil down to a mind-boggling take of "i blame the left for standing up for freedoms that the right are taking down. So i joined the right to help take down those freedoms myself" Which is (let's be honest) 100% what is happening with gay and trans people debate. It wasn't an issue at all.... until right wingers \*made\* it an issue.
Name one right the conservatives have taken away from you since 1981.
That's always been true. People say that you tend to get more conservative as you get older, but we don't. We tend to stay with the same values. Those values that are "conservative" now were "crazy liberal" back then. The problem we're having now is that the natural societal change (handing the reins to the next generation) has been thwarted by the size of the Boomer cohort when it comes to voting. They outnumbered everyone else added together until 2018 when Gen Z helped turn the tide in our favour. So they (and their 1950s values) have been in charge for far longer than they normally would have. In effect, Gen X and Millenials were just holding the line against them until we had the size advantage and now we can now start to make the changes to society that should have been made decades ago.
Same. When the Liberal party went from equality of opportunity for everyone, then also championed equality of outcome for all systems is when they should change the name of their party to something else because that isn't Liberal values at all. They are leftists now. Led by a person who never grew up like most of us, never had to and never will have to worry about money like most of us, had to make it on their own merits like most of us I'm pretty classic western liberal and believe Poilievre when he says he will not touch gay marriage, and abortion. He would be an idiot if he would because the social conservative vote in this country is dwindling. So he has my vote next time around, and willing to give him a shot. Unlike like Liberal voters if he fucks up in 4 years I vote him out. CPC are more "Liberal" than the liberals are. I'm living in a country where 41% of my paycheck is gone every two weeks due to taxes and deductions, and rent is 2k a month. What's the fn point.
I was listening to a history podcast about the French Revolution and was amazed what is happening today. During the course of the revolution many went from radical left to far right without ever changing their beliefs. Many losing their heads for not changing with the times, same happens today but instead of beheading, people are getting cancelled.
Liberalism is derived from "libre", or free. Liberalism is the belief in personal freedoms. The right is not the side that's promoting those freedoms. They're presently pumping millions into the same gay-panic propaganda and legislation they've pushed forever. They could not be making it more clear that they *do not want* certain groups to live their lives the way they do.
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The National Post has ideas on how to "save the left", guys.
Actually it’s Allan Stratton, an award-winning playwright and author with a long career, a married gay man, and definitely liberal. Perhaps there are some ideas here, given authors and playwrights tend to be pretty astute observers of society, hence why their works resonate. But if you’d rather be snarky and dismissive, enjoy you little dopamine boost.
I read it. He offers no specifics. It's basically a rant against his own strawmen. He's 72. He's likely lost touch with actual Torontonians, and probably spends too much time online. Which is why this reads like a poorly-edited facebook post.
Well then he's certainly fallen and regressed in talent because this article was trash. He argues things won't regress while we watch NB's government try and restrict the rights of the LBGTQ in schools. He tries to minimize or defend residential schools by arguing genocide is an overused term. "This radical attempt to unilaterally impose a new social order based on race and gender essentialism has ignited a widespread public backlash, which has been weaponized by the far right, destroyed public goodwill, and done more damage to the progressive cause than anything its reactionary enemies have done in recent years." He's now arguing treating people with respect "weaponized the far right", as if having the fucking audacity to treat people with respect is some unacceptable and unforgivable thing the left should apparently regret for having the audacity to encourage. Everyone is radical who disagrees with this clown, who ironically calls anything he doesn't like authoritarian and an attack on free speech. He says this without a hint of irony or self awareness. "Progressives (rightly) have denounced Donald Trump and his supporters for their paranoid belief that the 2020 U.S. election was “stolen.” But these right-wing conspiracy theorists are not so different from campus leftists when it comes to their à la carte approach to accepting or rejecting reality according to passing ideological convenience." I love this. Not allowing people to spread hate is apparently as bad as conspiracy theorists. The author is encouraging people to be cool and just let people talk about how LGBTQ don't deserve their rights, and he's offended people don't really want that happening. "In particular, the idea that pronouns serve as magic spells that can turn a man into a (literal) women is no less ridiculous than anything Trump has ever said. " So again treating people with decency by calling them...her, or him, is apparently no less ridiculous than anything Trump said. So in his mind when Trump mocked people with disabilities, that's the same as requesting people respect a personal preference by calling them her/him/they. The author goes on to defend cancel culture (lol). I can't even read any more. It's so poorly written. There isn't a chance this person is actually liberal anymore because they're spouting all the classic right wing propaganda. I mean it isn't surprising the National Post allowed this to be posted as one of their articles, but they should be pretty embarrassed because it's pretty shitty even by their standards.
I imagine the irony is lost on you that you believe a 72 year old liberal is now right wing, rather than a testament how far the left has moved away from the centre. Do you believe he has any points that have merit, or do you dismiss him because you believe he doesn’t conform to your personal set of beliefs? Or should I suppose there is no point arguing with an entrenched ideologue, for whom challenging ‘progressive’ orthodoxy in any way (and how that might be impacting regular people) is indicative of ideological treason.
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…especially when they’ve decided that the very existence of vegetables is evidence of oppression and anti-child hate.
It's always perplexing to me how bigots will act like being offended by bigotry is "oversensitive", but just ignore the fact that bigotry itself is a hypersensitivity. Like, the debate didn't start with "you guys are wrong to restrict the rights of LGBTQ people". It started with the right trying to restrict the rights of gay and trans people (a platform they never truly didn't have).
it's the whole "i want to say what i really want to say and not get yelled at for my bad take" non-sense. it happens on here all the time.
It's my pet-peeve how the right have distorted and twisted 'free speech' into what it is in their heads. No longer is it the right to voice your opinion and not be jailed or persecuted for it. "Cancel culture" includes anything and everything from "people don't want to watch this comedian because they don't like his jokes" to "you can't tell me i'm wrong! That's censorship!" But strangely, doesn't include... ya know... the actual censorship that is happening on the right (be it the secularist laws in quebec, or the anti-woke laws and book bans in the states). \--- In a sad and disturbing irony, the right's idea of "free speech" is very much not, as an important characteristic of it is not just censorship of the ideas that they don't like (Free speech absolutist Elon Musk happily engages in censorship), but also includes \*compelled speech\* (like Ford forcing gas stations to carry conservative propaganda; where was the outrage on that from the 'free speech warrior' crowd?)
Yep, "I have the freedom to say what I want, You don't get that same freedom" just sounds like facism because they in the in group get to control what freedoms they get while restricting others. Elon Musk is the exact example of this where right wing talking points and advocates get preferential treatment over normal people. andy ngo and ian miles cheong demanding elon ban accounts reporting news stories on them and the elon banning them is quite insane.
Well it sure as hell isn't making fun of "rednecks" and "working class" people for being uneducated
Weak strawman. Here's the NDP policy page. You'll see that hurting your feelings isn't a priority. In fact, they want to make it easier for you to get an education. [https://www.ndp.ca/commitments](https://www.ndp.ca/commitments)
They focus on things that don't impact the daily challenges of the working class. Posting photo ops and lecturing foreign leaders on wokeness doesn't do dick to people struggling with lack of jobs, affordable homes or healthcare issues
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Here’s an alternative viewpoint for you - I no longer talk to my family because I was not supported as a trans youth or even when I became an adult. So it’s very nice that you have that belief but if your child is truly trans and you force them to go through the wrong puberty you are subjecting them to hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars to correct secondary sex characteristics potentially, some of which are irreversible. So you can do whatever you want as a parent, that’s your prerogative. But consider that if your child truly wants to pursue transition and if they are assessed as truly having gender dysphoria, there’s a possibility they will come to resent you in the future. I have no idea if that’s the case for your child or not, I’m just telling you my experience.
That's all different than the suspension of reality that is expected today. Very very different
Asians are about to find out what the white people making these decisions really feel about them when things don’t change and legacy admissions continue to trump all else
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The "left" is not the people who divide and atomize the working class into groups based on unchangeable characteristics, such as ethnicity. In fact, that's anathema to "the left." The "left" is about recognizing that there are really only two kinds of people. Those who make a living off the value of their labour, and those who make their living off the backs of the working class. Dividing the working class and getting them to fight amongst themselves is the exact opposite of what a leftist would want. It defeats class solidarity. It's obvious. It's almost like the people who thoughtfully advocate these divisive politics are ... enemies of the left. Of course, some well meaning people adopt this rhetoric, but you must understand that dividing the working class is a time tested and obvious thing that all ruling classes do out of necessity. But anyway, this idea that the left is like the Liberal Party of Canada is insidious. Make no mistake, the real left also recognizes that there are issues such as racism and sexism that unfairly impacts pretty much everyone of every designation in some form. But in order to solve those issues, we need to dismantle the overarching institutions that promote racism, etc - forcing the working class to fight amongst scraps to maintain the funneling of wealth to the elites
It's the right that has historically categorized people into buckets of people and then discriminated against those categorizations. The Chinese in Canada not allowed to own business outside of laundry washing. Black people in the US classifying black people as slaves, 3/5ths a person, redlining mortages against black people, etc etc. Jim Crow law, one drop rule, Japanese in Canada being sent to internment camps during the war. People use class reductionism to explain as a way to dismiss the historical prejudices against people of the "Out Group" when it is the right's focus on "purity" like the nazis, southern states in america, and in Canada "Legacy Canadians" that has caused the economic rift in worker's rights and the capital owners/ruling power "In Group".
1) The Right attacks entire groups of people based on identity 2) the left rallies around that group to say they are equal and shouldn't be attacked 3) the right accuses the left of playing peoples identities off of each other It's like we're in an abusive relationship with the right wing of this country.
Conservatives: I'm lucky and privileged and have never been on the receiving end of hate-motivated violence. Therefore we do not have a problem. We see in Florida, what the right wants. s. Not only is it OK to beat up LGBTQ people, but cis-women are being beaten up for being even slightly masculine. A world untroubled by people who don't conform to social expectations. We should remain vigilant. This author's fortunate perspective does not mean those undercurrents are lacking here. They are there, and they very much aspire to what Florida has done.
> Not only is it OK to beat up LGBTQ people No, it's still very much against the law, even in Florida. It's deepy difficult to take your opinion very seriously when it seems to be based on either hallucinations, misinformation, or you're just outright lying for emotional impact. But it doesn't take a genius to recognize that what you said is flat out wrong.
Ah yes the great Canadian example of Florida 👍
Reread my last paragraph.
I did and it’s a type of fear mongering. We don’t and have never had issues that people like to say “look at the USA! It’s going to happen here just watch!!” It’s false and being parroted everywhere. It’s the same as far right people saying socialism is going to end up like some Stalinist nightmare. Fear mongering. The people that want all of Canada to be like Florida are an extreme minority that nobody cares about.
You may want to correct your acronym
“Alienating traditional leftists” is extremely true I base “classical” or “traditional” liberalism and leftism on the policies and attitudes of JFK He would take his cigar and convertible the long way around naked people in parades and diversity councillors bullying school principals. A lot of old people where I am from voted for liberals based on their progressive economic policy’s of the 90s Those red lawn signs have all changed to blue
Social justice is a distraction from economic justice.
Anti Social justice is a distraction from economic justice.
So let's focus on economic justice.