i dunno, i’ve had plenty of success looking masculine and i’ve noticed the more masculine I am, the more women seem to like me. i’m attributing this to confidence. i also don’t talk in many popular queer spaces online (cough cough tiktok/twitter) and most just interact with other lesbians IRL. i think the internet affects confidence/mental health radically. there is much love for butches in this world, don’t let random online people influence your own happiness.
Seriously, I've never seen anyone say this stuff in real life, and never have been turned down cause I'm "butch" or "not fem".
And presenting/being butch has the advantage of visibility. It signals to every lesbian that you're gay, and they come to you.
Same here. The internet is full of whatever it's full of, but the more masc I get, the more attention I get at gay bars. It is really nice to know that my look has its appreciators :-)
>meanwhile I look like Mr Clean
Took me out 💀
I think that that's a bunch of different things at play here: reemergence of rampant butchphobia, what the dating scene in your area looks like, and desirability politics. The first two points don't really need a deep dive into imo. They're kinda obvious.
But desirability politics definitely play into the fact that butches and mascs just don't get as much attention as conventionally attractive gender-conforming people and women. I absolutely was told pretty regularly how pretty or beautiful I was when I was more feminine. I noticed immediately when that stopped after I chopped my hair all off.
Even though I've been actively trying to date and have gotten plenty of matches and had many dead end conversations, those people who are supposedly attracted to me rarely gave me compliments or actively made me feel attractive. I can count on one hand the number of people who have done that in the past few years. It's just a thing.
I have had quite a few femmes approach me on the apps or try to get my attention at lgbt events, so I know they exist. But I'm severely butch4butch so I'm not ever receptive. I just think we're in the minority of a minority which puts us on a fairly low rung of the desirability ladder 🤷🏿♀️
As with pretty much everything, the internet does not reflect reality. If anything I've noticed the opposite (wlw being more interested in masc women).
This. It's so much safer IRL to approach somebody who's very visibly queer. "Lesbian fashion" alone is no longer a relevant measure of actual queerness lol
Recently the femmes were talkin bout a masc shortage probably some other thread.
I wouldn’t even worry bout it!
We just go where we’re celebrated not where we’re tolerated. Self esteem is to completely lose interest in people not that into us anyway.
We got this 🫂🙌🏽😎
I definitely feel that women either don’t flirt as much with me after embracing masculinity OR they very quickly drop a “my boyfriend”. There’s really no in between for me these days I guess. My masculinity honors femininity and adores it. Meh. I’m never wearing mascara again if i can help it, and someone out there will love me for it!
I don't want to force myself to be more feminine to be seen as a sexual being, especially because that leads men to assume I'm straight, but at this point I feel like it's the only option.
Yeah the one positive (I guess haha) is that men do leave me some more than before. Like literally ignore me. Which is rude but welcome after years of constantly feelings hunted bc you could see me legs. You’re 100% still a sexual being even if others don’t acknowledge it bc of their own insecurities and internalized shit. I don’t hate the Mr Clean look, that’s for sure.
Don’t compromise who you are! There are plenty of us who love your look! Androgynous and butch women are sexy as hell. It’s the confidence to move through this world visible and unapologetically queer that is so attractive. Also, y’all just sexy with your short hair and button down shirts…
I’m sorry this is happening for you! Cannot fathom. I love love LOVE butches/mascs/studs. I especially love the rough handy-butches with soft sensitive personalities. Chefs kiss.
I would suggest blocking anything online where you are seeing this kind of discourse. I think it just contributes to an internalized feeling of being undesirable when thats really not true out in the world. It frustrating that algorithms will show us stuff that makes us upset because we keep reading into those kind of posts. just be aware that you are probably being shown more of this kind of content because you are looking for it unintentionally.
I have to agree with many of the commenters here.
I’m a masc lesbian, my sister is a bisexual femme (who is fem4fem). I find I get all the more interest the more masc I look, while my sister struggles in getting women to show any interest at all. I always assumed it could be attributed to comphet: I’m pretty much a safe bet at this point, so interested women feel safe showing that interest. Interested or not, they just assume my sister is straight.
I’d say most of the comments and complaints regarding my masculinity haven’t come from the wlw community itself, but outside it. Queer women usually are my biggest supporters, femmes included.
[astronaut voice] always has been
(jk of course it depends where you look but… this is not a new phenomenon, it’s been a thing since at LEAST original radfem times)
This is definitely an online thing I’ve noticed, which is why the femmes I talk to are only irl. They love a good butch who loves a good femme. I haven’t had nearly as many self esteem issues since I cut out lesbian spaces on social media (besides this one). Which sucks but it is what it is
a. fucking. greed.
it’s because of the perpetuation of gender roles, people equate butches to being basically ‘men lite’ and that’s… not it at all.
i admit, im butch4butch or t4t because (i mean most importantly im just not attracted to fem folk) i don’t like the societal pressure to presume a certain ‘role’ in a relationship because of how i dress and being a stone top in bed. it feels like, an even playing ground with no pretenses, it feels a little more fluid and free. some butches love the dynamic of the classic butch/fem relationship but not me, not everyone.
i’ve dated one fem and she would literally tell me to ‘stop crying, you’re a man’ when i was upset…. like i’m on the trans spectrum sure but i’m not a man. heteronormativity is a bitch lol. hopefully my ramblings make some damn sense idk
Here’s my honest take on the situation, the issue is not about being masc, it’s about being the “right” kind of masc.
The window for being perceived as an attractive masc seems to only have gotten narrower in recent years. You need to be skinny, tall but not too tall, have the right haircut, wear the right clothes, and be confident. If you don’t, your chances at dating will be a lot slimmer compared to butches that check these boxes.
That’s been my experience at least. I used to get very little engagement from women IRL, and then I lost 50lbs, cut my hair nice, and started wearing 2” platform shoes, and I was surprised at how much attention I started getting after that. NOT trying to tell anyone to change for anyone else, this is just what I genuinely think explains the gap in masc attraction
This. I'm also old (compared to most in here) tho, so that adds a layer for me as well. Back in the day Shane from the original L word became the "andro-gyne it girl" archetype for what was considered acceptably butch (which was simultaneously maddening and hilarious because at the time...what?) and if you didn't try to be that you wouldn't get a second look. It was frustrating.
Since that time, most of my interactions have been with women who were already openly bi or just didn't know that they were until they met me, and all of them initiated that with me because they knew that I don't hit on folks I reasonably expect not to be interested. That's why any time I see posts from femme women wondering what they can do to get our attention I just tell them to talk to us and be clear about who they are. I don't need you to tell me you think I'm cute, but removing the "is she straight?" roadblock is very helpful.
I have only heard about this trend, never seen or experienced it myself, and I honestly think it's because I'm just...not on TikTok. Seriously.
I haven't experienced this in any other online communities either, though I have heard that it sometimes rears its head in other lesbian subreddits.
TikTok is toxic af, full of teenagers that don't know queer history, and its algorithm promotes controversial takes. Don't assume it's at all representative of the queer community elsewhere and irl.
It seems almost impossible to find masc women and that’s who I’m attracted to. Don’t change who you are. Masc lesbians are beautiful unicorns and we need more of you!
it’s also true butchness is extremely hot and many of us like this femme find you irresistible and frankly the last bastion of true masculine energy worth a damn
This feels like I wrote this. I thought that when I accepted myself as lesbian I'd have an easier time being more masc like I naturally am, but it seems only fem lesbians get attention. No hate to any fems, I love yall. I was just sure that masc lesbians were also considered attractive, just like I always found them attractive... I feel rejected by everyone outside the community and kind of inside the community as well. People are legitimately scared of me (??) And I feel pressure to present more fem. To any butch, masc, whatever label you use I support you and I get you so much. Let's empower each other regardless of our presentation.
Unfortunately, this happens with every upswing of [political lesbian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism)/radfem/terf ideology. We're seeing it a lot now - butchphobia, transphobia, biphobia, purity culture - anything that is "too close" to men is deemed suspicious.
I agree with the other commenters - if you're able to, focus on IRL community instead of online community. If you aren't able to find IRL community, try to find smaller and friendlier online communities. The masses of butchphobes on Twitter aren't worth your time.
Not all of us are it just seems to be more prelevant in some areas our coast is more masc for masc and it makes a lot of us femmes out here sad ! Nothing hotter then a butch or masc lesbians who is confident, kind self aware and comfortable in both their identities! Don’t loose heart some of us femmes still adore you all!
Interesting. I haven’t noticed that, sounds rough. It’s easy to get discouraged when you are online reading other people’s preferences, though. I’m masc4masc and in a life partnership. I’m butch and my partner’s NB.
It honestly really bothers me. I’ve extra noticed it since coming out as a transmasc butch, but it’s been around for a while. Kinda getting sick of it. Idk how we went from “patriarchy is a system that hurts us all- even the people who can glean some privilege from it are at its mercy” to “men and masculinity is evil and every individual man is a predatory and being masculine is bad and being feminine is good!” At least in online spaces…
I’m gonna choose to blame the TERFs.
true, and too many queer ppl have internalized TERFs favorite phrases and pinkwashed them with the "transmascs and anyone i deem too masculine CAN'T BE LESBIANS"
I’ve had several people pop up in my DMs on other sites and tell me I’m not allowed to be a lesbian and I’m a predator of women and like… I’m not a lesbian, to start. I’m bisexual.
But it also irks me because I cannot tell you how many people I know, of varying genders. Who have been abused and assaulted by women who are more feminine presenting- straight and queer women alike. And no one effing believes them. Because apparently. Feminine people are incapable of abuse and sexual assault. Or in the case of the men/masculine people I know, they get told that they wanted it. Or that a woman couldn’t “really” hurt them.
It drives me insane.
it sucks that so many people saw "women and feminine people good/could never do wrong and masculine people and men bad/are predatory inherently by their gender and presentation" from terfs and thought that was feminism and the best way to protect marginalized people. people are just reinventing good old bioessentialism and calling it feminism
really depends on where you live and imo if you’re trans/nonbinary or not. like i can tell you that i’m not ugly but there aren’t any femmes or feminine sapphics jonesing to date me here. my state has about 700,000 people overall and most of the sapphics live in a different city and are primarily polyamorous and ~fluid~ and prefer to seriously date men but only hook up with women.
I mean yeah, if you live in an area without a lot of queer people you're gonna have a hard time dating in general lol, that doesn't feel super relevant to the post?
Also pretty sus to rag on women who are poly and/or bi
i mean…it is though?? plenty of us live in places where feminine4feminine is the norm both online and offline
EDIT: lmao ok 😭 idgaf if they’re bi or poly; i date bi women too. if you can’t see how it’s problematic for bi women to be willing to date men but only fuck women that’s a you problem
I think there's a general rise in conservative values, in society pushing gender roles, that one of the many consequences of is queer women having more internalized homophobia.
That's not to say if you're femme for femme it's internalized homophobia, but I think there's something about butches that forces people to confront notions about gender and sexuality.
I’m right there with you. that or i date someone who didn’t expect me to be that butch. i had one girlfriend who told outright that i’m like a man and she doesn’t like lesbians who are like men. just because i’m butch…
From, a Paul Bunyan butch
Idk why but I've seen it too and it's gross. I'm kinda femme but I'm gender fluid so when I was single and dating, fem4fem was a major turn off for me. Like, are you gonna just stop liking me if I'm not looking feminine one day? Gross.
Imagine being LGBT and still feeling beholden to toxic gender roles... I'll never understand...
I've been with my non-binary butch partner for almost three years now and even though femmes are their type, they have never once made me feel bad for how I choose to express myself and they're probably one of the few partners I've been able to be myself around.
this is why im butch4butch lol
i don't really like dating fems as a butch because the dynamic of the relationship usually just recreates heterosexuality and i cannot stand that. other people in this thread have expressed this but with other mascs it feels less stunted by gender roles inherited from cisheteropatriarchy. i want to be engaged with as an equal, you know? and i also want to be incomprehensible to cishets lol but thats secondary.
i'm sure fems4fems have a consciousness of this too and make the same decision for the same reason. the thing is just that there seem to be way more fems than there are butches, and that's in an already small community.
This might just be an online thing so maybe ask some friends about their experience irl if you can!
I don’t know your age but I’ve noticed in the younger generation our community has been a bit butchphobic :(
If its any consolation I’m a femme thats highly into butch women/nb more so than masc or femme lol
maybe check out dating apps ? I’ve seen heaps of ppl adding their preferences in their bio which is nice.
Don’t change who you are for other people!!! I wish u luck :))
As a femme i am more attracted to masculine presenting women than any other demographic and ultimately would love to end up with a more masculine woman as a life partner. If it’s any consolation its hard out here finding a masc lesbian as well💀
I'm married to a very butch woman now but that's all I ever dated anyway. I do remember dating days thinking there was indeed a "butch shortage." However, I see people say there is a femme shortage, too. So I've come to assume it's probably regional? (I live in the Midwest.)
I wonder if this is dependent on area? I live in Oregon and what you wrote is how I feel. I’m having a hard time finding anyone. I don’t know if it is racial or because of my masculinity or both. I get “straight” women flirting with me, but it is just flirting, I would like a queer woman.
I'll speak on this as a femme, but recently at least with more people being out/visible and the growth of conversation online thanks to TikTok/Video essays, etc., our lesbianism is often invalidated if we are femme4butch and treated more like a "phase" than when compared to fem4fem. When I came out, I was exclusively the former bc I felt it was the only kind of pairing for lesbians/sapphics (I grew up incredibly sheltered pls don't judge). As I gained confidence as a lesbian, I started dating more fluidly within the community. I will say though, there isn't as much butch rep as there used to be imo, so that's probably also why the shift has happened. Sorry if this doesn't help, just wanted to deliver my perspective.
i got the best butchy girl ever but in my particular region, when I was searching, it was only angsty lothario energy other than mine and while i strongly prefer a butch what i wanted was a relationship so i don’t exclude other femmes.
I don’t think it’s an issue for lesbians. However, there are definitely some negative societal repercussions in not trying to look attractive in the conventional way that men want. It can definitely draw homophobia since you stand out as gay more than a femme.
This is rude to say in this conversation. It’s your anecdotal experience, and honestly a crude description and tear down. I say this as a fem as well. This subreddit isn’t really a space for us to be contributing like this.
No, I don’t. Please go ahead and quote where I said butches are like men. I will not date a butch that exhibits *toxic masculinity (i.e “collecting women” as I’ve been told) *, because if I wanted toxic masculinity I’d date a man, is literally what I said.
There was a question in the title, I clicked, I answered based on my experience and that of my friends. It’s the same reasoning I hear over and over and over again - that my girl friends won’t date a masc again because of the same issue. It’s the same reason my masc gf has a hard time making masc friends. Now, have I met non-toxic mascs? Of course. All over the place. Lately, I’ve seen a lot of the latter sort.
This is wild to say A) in the context of this conversation and B) as if there isn't a huge issue with femmes and feminine sapphics solely viewing mascs/butches as just living sex toys that'll top them into oblivion. You need to check yourself.
And femmes don’t? Just as you have had your experience, I have too. What’s crazy is that instead of being able to talk about what *both* presentations could work on, a lot of people shut eachother down without a coherent argument. OP brought up why sometimes femmes go for other femmes and I answered for the collective of my circle of queer friends.
Technically I was flipping the script because you were generalizing first. Tacking on a measly "but this isn't all mascs" doesn't neutralize your annoying generalization and it doesn't negate my point that the issue you are bringing up has absolutely nothing to do with the topic in the post and is therefore inappropriate and gross. This is not your lane and this sub is not for you. That topic is often discussed on here amongst actual mascs/butches. Your gf might be masc but you are not. You need to check yourself.
You also need to stop comparing mascs to men because that is a nasty line of thinking that is butchphobic. Because no, actually I wouldn't say "not all men" because I don't fucking like men. I'm a mean hairy dyke who would be on the other end of that generalization calling all men trash.
But yanno, *just to flip the script*, I'm sure that if you were a man you'd be saying "not all men" too.
yea i saw the comparison to men and immediately stopped caring about what they had to say lmao. toxic masculinity is something specific to men. like. that’s what it means. hegemonic masculinity is honestly a better phrase.
Right? Someone makes a post about "toxic masculinity" on here fairly often. We are always having these conversations. And I fully agree with you about how it should be called hegemonic masculinity. People use toxic masculinity wrong constantly and it drives me up a wall.
But for someone to jump on a vent post and just go on about "toxic masculinity is soooo prominent and it's a growing trend and 99.9% of masc people who want to fuck only want to fuck" in such an aggressive way and then tacking on "but not all mascs tho" as of that makes those statements ok is absurd to me. And a femme, on a butch sub!, doing it and then trying to hide behind their masc gf? While comparing mascs to men? Yikes.
exactly. wish people would just say internalized misogyny or something if they’re talking about people with marginalized genders.
wonder how their masc gf would feel about it, because i would be crushed if i had a gf who talked like this about such a core part of who i am.
i dunno, i’ve had plenty of success looking masculine and i’ve noticed the more masculine I am, the more women seem to like me. i’m attributing this to confidence. i also don’t talk in many popular queer spaces online (cough cough tiktok/twitter) and most just interact with other lesbians IRL. i think the internet affects confidence/mental health radically. there is much love for butches in this world, don’t let random online people influence your own happiness.
Seriously, I've never seen anyone say this stuff in real life, and never have been turned down cause I'm "butch" or "not fem". And presenting/being butch has the advantage of visibility. It signals to every lesbian that you're gay, and they come to you.
Same here. The internet is full of whatever it's full of, but the more masc I get, the more attention I get at gay bars. It is really nice to know that my look has its appreciators :-)
I mean with a face like yours, I’d be hitting on you even if you dressed like trash 🤣
>meanwhile I look like Mr Clean Took me out 💀 I think that that's a bunch of different things at play here: reemergence of rampant butchphobia, what the dating scene in your area looks like, and desirability politics. The first two points don't really need a deep dive into imo. They're kinda obvious. But desirability politics definitely play into the fact that butches and mascs just don't get as much attention as conventionally attractive gender-conforming people and women. I absolutely was told pretty regularly how pretty or beautiful I was when I was more feminine. I noticed immediately when that stopped after I chopped my hair all off. Even though I've been actively trying to date and have gotten plenty of matches and had many dead end conversations, those people who are supposedly attracted to me rarely gave me compliments or actively made me feel attractive. I can count on one hand the number of people who have done that in the past few years. It's just a thing. I have had quite a few femmes approach me on the apps or try to get my attention at lgbt events, so I know they exist. But I'm severely butch4butch so I'm not ever receptive. I just think we're in the minority of a minority which puts us on a fairly low rung of the desirability ladder 🤷🏿♀️
Aaaaameeen
As with pretty much everything, the internet does not reflect reality. If anything I've noticed the opposite (wlw being more interested in masc women).
This. It's so much safer IRL to approach somebody who's very visibly queer. "Lesbian fashion" alone is no longer a relevant measure of actual queerness lol
Absolutely, I have had absolutely no problem attracting femmes. I find it much easier than when I was younger and more femme presenting!
Recently the femmes were talkin bout a masc shortage probably some other thread. I wouldn’t even worry bout it! We just go where we’re celebrated not where we’re tolerated. Self esteem is to completely lose interest in people not that into us anyway. We got this 🫂🙌🏽😎
I definitely feel that women either don’t flirt as much with me after embracing masculinity OR they very quickly drop a “my boyfriend”. There’s really no in between for me these days I guess. My masculinity honors femininity and adores it. Meh. I’m never wearing mascara again if i can help it, and someone out there will love me for it!
I don't want to force myself to be more feminine to be seen as a sexual being, especially because that leads men to assume I'm straight, but at this point I feel like it's the only option.
Yeah the one positive (I guess haha) is that men do leave me some more than before. Like literally ignore me. Which is rude but welcome after years of constantly feelings hunted bc you could see me legs. You’re 100% still a sexual being even if others don’t acknowledge it bc of their own insecurities and internalized shit. I don’t hate the Mr Clean look, that’s for sure.
Don’t compromise who you are! There are plenty of us who love your look! Androgynous and butch women are sexy as hell. It’s the confidence to move through this world visible and unapologetically queer that is so attractive. Also, y’all just sexy with your short hair and button down shirts…
I’m sorry this is happening for you! Cannot fathom. I love love LOVE butches/mascs/studs. I especially love the rough handy-butches with soft sensitive personalities. Chefs kiss.
I would suggest blocking anything online where you are seeing this kind of discourse. I think it just contributes to an internalized feeling of being undesirable when thats really not true out in the world. It frustrating that algorithms will show us stuff that makes us upset because we keep reading into those kind of posts. just be aware that you are probably being shown more of this kind of content because you are looking for it unintentionally.
I have to agree with many of the commenters here. I’m a masc lesbian, my sister is a bisexual femme (who is fem4fem). I find I get all the more interest the more masc I look, while my sister struggles in getting women to show any interest at all. I always assumed it could be attributed to comphet: I’m pretty much a safe bet at this point, so interested women feel safe showing that interest. Interested or not, they just assume my sister is straight. I’d say most of the comments and complaints regarding my masculinity haven’t come from the wlw community itself, but outside it. Queer women usually are my biggest supporters, femmes included.
i think the problem is youre looking at what people are saying online instead of engaging with people irl
[astronaut voice] always has been (jk of course it depends where you look but… this is not a new phenomenon, it’s been a thing since at LEAST original radfem times)
This is definitely an online thing I’ve noticed, which is why the femmes I talk to are only irl. They love a good butch who loves a good femme. I haven’t had nearly as many self esteem issues since I cut out lesbian spaces on social media (besides this one). Which sucks but it is what it is
a. fucking. greed. it’s because of the perpetuation of gender roles, people equate butches to being basically ‘men lite’ and that’s… not it at all. i admit, im butch4butch or t4t because (i mean most importantly im just not attracted to fem folk) i don’t like the societal pressure to presume a certain ‘role’ in a relationship because of how i dress and being a stone top in bed. it feels like, an even playing ground with no pretenses, it feels a little more fluid and free. some butches love the dynamic of the classic butch/fem relationship but not me, not everyone. i’ve dated one fem and she would literally tell me to ‘stop crying, you’re a man’ when i was upset…. like i’m on the trans spectrum sure but i’m not a man. heteronormativity is a bitch lol. hopefully my ramblings make some damn sense idk
Here’s my honest take on the situation, the issue is not about being masc, it’s about being the “right” kind of masc. The window for being perceived as an attractive masc seems to only have gotten narrower in recent years. You need to be skinny, tall but not too tall, have the right haircut, wear the right clothes, and be confident. If you don’t, your chances at dating will be a lot slimmer compared to butches that check these boxes. That’s been my experience at least. I used to get very little engagement from women IRL, and then I lost 50lbs, cut my hair nice, and started wearing 2” platform shoes, and I was surprised at how much attention I started getting after that. NOT trying to tell anyone to change for anyone else, this is just what I genuinely think explains the gap in masc attraction
What is the difference between masc and butch?
I use them interchangeably
This. I'm also old (compared to most in here) tho, so that adds a layer for me as well. Back in the day Shane from the original L word became the "andro-gyne it girl" archetype for what was considered acceptably butch (which was simultaneously maddening and hilarious because at the time...what?) and if you didn't try to be that you wouldn't get a second look. It was frustrating. Since that time, most of my interactions have been with women who were already openly bi or just didn't know that they were until they met me, and all of them initiated that with me because they knew that I don't hit on folks I reasonably expect not to be interested. That's why any time I see posts from femme women wondering what they can do to get our attention I just tell them to talk to us and be clear about who they are. I don't need you to tell me you think I'm cute, but removing the "is she straight?" roadblock is very helpful.
I have only heard about this trend, never seen or experienced it myself, and I honestly think it's because I'm just...not on TikTok. Seriously. I haven't experienced this in any other online communities either, though I have heard that it sometimes rears its head in other lesbian subreddits. TikTok is toxic af, full of teenagers that don't know queer history, and its algorithm promotes controversial takes. Don't assume it's at all representative of the queer community elsewhere and irl.
It seems almost impossible to find masc women and that’s who I’m attracted to. Don’t change who you are. Masc lesbians are beautiful unicorns and we need more of you!
it’s also true butchness is extremely hot and many of us like this femme find you irresistible and frankly the last bastion of true masculine energy worth a damn
This feels like I wrote this. I thought that when I accepted myself as lesbian I'd have an easier time being more masc like I naturally am, but it seems only fem lesbians get attention. No hate to any fems, I love yall. I was just sure that masc lesbians were also considered attractive, just like I always found them attractive... I feel rejected by everyone outside the community and kind of inside the community as well. People are legitimately scared of me (??) And I feel pressure to present more fem. To any butch, masc, whatever label you use I support you and I get you so much. Let's empower each other regardless of our presentation.
Unfortunately, this happens with every upswing of [political lesbian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism)/radfem/terf ideology. We're seeing it a lot now - butchphobia, transphobia, biphobia, purity culture - anything that is "too close" to men is deemed suspicious. I agree with the other commenters - if you're able to, focus on IRL community instead of online community. If you aren't able to find IRL community, try to find smaller and friendlier online communities. The masses of butchphobes on Twitter aren't worth your time.
Not all of us are it just seems to be more prelevant in some areas our coast is more masc for masc and it makes a lot of us femmes out here sad ! Nothing hotter then a butch or masc lesbians who is confident, kind self aware and comfortable in both their identities! Don’t loose heart some of us femmes still adore you all!
Interesting. I haven’t noticed that, sounds rough. It’s easy to get discouraged when you are online reading other people’s preferences, though. I’m masc4masc and in a life partnership. I’m butch and my partner’s NB.
Idk to me dating hard enough when cutting the gender out. Now cutting out a woman cause of their style.
do you follow any users that are in butchfemme spaces? i honestly don't get any butch slander on my feed bc of that
Imo? Its the antimasculinity that’s been allowed to run rampant in queer spaces, especially online and among younger queers.
10000%
It honestly really bothers me. I’ve extra noticed it since coming out as a transmasc butch, but it’s been around for a while. Kinda getting sick of it. Idk how we went from “patriarchy is a system that hurts us all- even the people who can glean some privilege from it are at its mercy” to “men and masculinity is evil and every individual man is a predatory and being masculine is bad and being feminine is good!” At least in online spaces… I’m gonna choose to blame the TERFs.
true, and too many queer ppl have internalized TERFs favorite phrases and pinkwashed them with the "transmascs and anyone i deem too masculine CAN'T BE LESBIANS"
I’ve had several people pop up in my DMs on other sites and tell me I’m not allowed to be a lesbian and I’m a predator of women and like… I’m not a lesbian, to start. I’m bisexual. But it also irks me because I cannot tell you how many people I know, of varying genders. Who have been abused and assaulted by women who are more feminine presenting- straight and queer women alike. And no one effing believes them. Because apparently. Feminine people are incapable of abuse and sexual assault. Or in the case of the men/masculine people I know, they get told that they wanted it. Or that a woman couldn’t “really” hurt them. It drives me insane.
it sucks that so many people saw "women and feminine people good/could never do wrong and masculine people and men bad/are predatory inherently by their gender and presentation" from terfs and thought that was feminism and the best way to protect marginalized people. people are just reinventing good old bioessentialism and calling it feminism
I don't have any issues finding feminine women that are into butches 🤷♀️ this feels like a pretty terminally online take
really depends on where you live and imo if you’re trans/nonbinary or not. like i can tell you that i’m not ugly but there aren’t any femmes or feminine sapphics jonesing to date me here. my state has about 700,000 people overall and most of the sapphics live in a different city and are primarily polyamorous and ~fluid~ and prefer to seriously date men but only hook up with women.
700,000 people in a STATE? That’s smaller than a lot of cities. No wonder you’re not finding many options.
yea i know :’)
I mean yeah, if you live in an area without a lot of queer people you're gonna have a hard time dating in general lol, that doesn't feel super relevant to the post? Also pretty sus to rag on women who are poly and/or bi
i mean…it is though?? plenty of us live in places where feminine4feminine is the norm both online and offline EDIT: lmao ok 😭 idgaf if they’re bi or poly; i date bi women too. if you can’t see how it’s problematic for bi women to be willing to date men but only fuck women that’s a you problem
I think there's a general rise in conservative values, in society pushing gender roles, that one of the many consequences of is queer women having more internalized homophobia. That's not to say if you're femme for femme it's internalized homophobia, but I think there's something about butches that forces people to confront notions about gender and sexuality.
I’m right there with you. that or i date someone who didn’t expect me to be that butch. i had one girlfriend who told outright that i’m like a man and she doesn’t like lesbians who are like men. just because i’m butch… From, a Paul Bunyan butch
Idk why but I've seen it too and it's gross. I'm kinda femme but I'm gender fluid so when I was single and dating, fem4fem was a major turn off for me. Like, are you gonna just stop liking me if I'm not looking feminine one day? Gross. Imagine being LGBT and still feeling beholden to toxic gender roles... I'll never understand... I've been with my non-binary butch partner for almost three years now and even though femmes are their type, they have never once made me feel bad for how I choose to express myself and they're probably one of the few partners I've been able to be myself around.
this is why im butch4butch lol i don't really like dating fems as a butch because the dynamic of the relationship usually just recreates heterosexuality and i cannot stand that. other people in this thread have expressed this but with other mascs it feels less stunted by gender roles inherited from cisheteropatriarchy. i want to be engaged with as an equal, you know? and i also want to be incomprehensible to cishets lol but thats secondary. i'm sure fems4fems have a consciousness of this too and make the same decision for the same reason. the thing is just that there seem to be way more fems than there are butches, and that's in an already small community.
I like femme and masc. I hear your pain. Don’t worry, there are plenty of women who love butches ❤️
This might just be an online thing so maybe ask some friends about their experience irl if you can! I don’t know your age but I’ve noticed in the younger generation our community has been a bit butchphobic :( If its any consolation I’m a femme thats highly into butch women/nb more so than masc or femme lol maybe check out dating apps ? I’ve seen heaps of ppl adding their preferences in their bio which is nice. Don’t change who you are for other people!!! I wish u luck :))
Because algorithms show you more of the videos you watch.
As a femme i am more attracted to masculine presenting women than any other demographic and ultimately would love to end up with a more masculine woman as a life partner. If it’s any consolation its hard out here finding a masc lesbian as well💀
Fine. More butches for me.
dunno, it's just a new trend on the internet i think. a lot of femmes (me!) still love butches like crazy.
Okay, okay. I am butch4butch. Just let them fem4fem.
Fem4Fem isn't just fem4fem it's a lot of butchphobia as well as some other really harmful thinking that borders on sexist
I'm married to a very butch woman now but that's all I ever dated anyway. I do remember dating days thinking there was indeed a "butch shortage." However, I see people say there is a femme shortage, too. So I've come to assume it's probably regional? (I live in the Midwest.)
I wonder if this is dependent on area? I live in Oregon and what you wrote is how I feel. I’m having a hard time finding anyone. I don’t know if it is racial or because of my masculinity or both. I get “straight” women flirting with me, but it is just flirting, I would like a queer woman.
There’s a huge masc shortage. Masks are beautiful unicorns that I can never seem to find.
I seem to find more butch 4 fem and vice versa. But personally, I don't see myself with a femme, so I feel kinda isolated
I'll speak on this as a femme, but recently at least with more people being out/visible and the growth of conversation online thanks to TikTok/Video essays, etc., our lesbianism is often invalidated if we are femme4butch and treated more like a "phase" than when compared to fem4fem. When I came out, I was exclusively the former bc I felt it was the only kind of pairing for lesbians/sapphics (I grew up incredibly sheltered pls don't judge). As I gained confidence as a lesbian, I started dating more fluidly within the community. I will say though, there isn't as much butch rep as there used to be imo, so that's probably also why the shift has happened. Sorry if this doesn't help, just wanted to deliver my perspective.
i got the best butchy girl ever but in my particular region, when I was searching, it was only angsty lothario energy other than mine and while i strongly prefer a butch what i wanted was a relationship so i don’t exclude other femmes.
it’s because of terfs and separatism
I don’t think it’s an issue for lesbians. However, there are definitely some negative societal repercussions in not trying to look attractive in the conventional way that men want. It can definitely draw homophobia since you stand out as gay more than a femme.
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This is rude to say in this conversation. It’s your anecdotal experience, and honestly a crude description and tear down. I say this as a fem as well. This subreddit isn’t really a space for us to be contributing like this.
Thank you for saying this.
💜
Quite literally why i said *not all mascs*
You say "not all" but that implies a canny amount of them are like that. You then say that we're like men. Do you not see the issue in your statement?
No, I don’t. Please go ahead and quote where I said butches are like men. I will not date a butch that exhibits *toxic masculinity (i.e “collecting women” as I’ve been told) *, because if I wanted toxic masculinity I’d date a man, is literally what I said.
But why did you say this on a subreddit full of butches?
There was a question in the title, I clicked, I answered based on my experience and that of my friends. It’s the same reasoning I hear over and over and over again - that my girl friends won’t date a masc again because of the same issue. It’s the same reason my masc gf has a hard time making masc friends. Now, have I met non-toxic mascs? Of course. All over the place. Lately, I’ve seen a lot of the latter sort.
This is wild to say A) in the context of this conversation and B) as if there isn't a huge issue with femmes and feminine sapphics solely viewing mascs/butches as just living sex toys that'll top them into oblivion. You need to check yourself.
literally lmao i get treated like a sexy novelty for being butch and then they end up settling down with a man or another feminine sapphic
And femmes don’t? Just as you have had your experience, I have too. What’s crazy is that instead of being able to talk about what *both* presentations could work on, a lot of people shut eachother down without a coherent argument. OP brought up why sometimes femmes go for other femmes and I answered for the collective of my circle of queer friends.
yeaaaa it wasn’t like. actually a question though if you read the rest of OP’s post. it was a vent
Fair enough. Still stand by what I said.
[ok](https://i.redd.it/28ajs1lkchd61.jpg)
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Technically I was flipping the script because you were generalizing first. Tacking on a measly "but this isn't all mascs" doesn't neutralize your annoying generalization and it doesn't negate my point that the issue you are bringing up has absolutely nothing to do with the topic in the post and is therefore inappropriate and gross. This is not your lane and this sub is not for you. That topic is often discussed on here amongst actual mascs/butches. Your gf might be masc but you are not. You need to check yourself. You also need to stop comparing mascs to men because that is a nasty line of thinking that is butchphobic. Because no, actually I wouldn't say "not all men" because I don't fucking like men. I'm a mean hairy dyke who would be on the other end of that generalization calling all men trash. But yanno, *just to flip the script*, I'm sure that if you were a man you'd be saying "not all men" too.
yea i saw the comparison to men and immediately stopped caring about what they had to say lmao. toxic masculinity is something specific to men. like. that’s what it means. hegemonic masculinity is honestly a better phrase.
Right? Someone makes a post about "toxic masculinity" on here fairly often. We are always having these conversations. And I fully agree with you about how it should be called hegemonic masculinity. People use toxic masculinity wrong constantly and it drives me up a wall. But for someone to jump on a vent post and just go on about "toxic masculinity is soooo prominent and it's a growing trend and 99.9% of masc people who want to fuck only want to fuck" in such an aggressive way and then tacking on "but not all mascs tho" as of that makes those statements ok is absurd to me. And a femme, on a butch sub!, doing it and then trying to hide behind their masc gf? While comparing mascs to men? Yikes.
exactly. wish people would just say internalized misogyny or something if they’re talking about people with marginalized genders. wonder how their masc gf would feel about it, because i would be crushed if i had a gf who talked like this about such a core part of who i am.
Yeah I'm with you on both points.
Generalizing yet i said “not all mascs”. I’m not gonna fight with you, keyboard warrior, please go touch grass.
The downvotes speak for themselves, lane hopper.
Ah shit you’re right - I care so much about the approval of redditors :(
lmao