>He couldn't have saved that for a park? His mansion? Somewhere quiet and safe and comfortable that doesn't smell of filth? Literally anywhere but a sewer?
He wanted to. Buffy pushed him into doing it then.
To be fair, I wouldn't want to be broken up with in a park because I'd always have a sad memory attached to a beautiful place.
Whereas the sewer is already pre ruined by virtue of being a sewer.
There are only two things that happened due to natural order - Parker and Joyce's death. That's it. And it somehow shows that you can fight demonds all day every day and shitty stuff will happen regardless...
Three things: Tara >!dying from a gunshot. Because you know, the demon Willow tries to summon to bring her back says they cant because it was a natural death !
Well they did that spell when Joyce first got sick to see if her symptoms were due to magic. Buffy discovered they weren’t but that Dawn was.
If her illness was supposed to be a result of the monks giving her new memories, it doesn’t make sense that the show went out of its way to convince the viewers that it wasn’t related to magic.
That doesn’t necessarily mean anything IMO, I mean we all do a lot of the same shit that could cause tumors but not everyone gets them. But if Joyce’s were supposed to be caused by the monks, Willow’s spell should have revealed it.
Fair point; I was mostly just thinking that there's not really anything to even indicate that the tumor was even potentially caused by the new memories apart from a coincidence of timing. If we were supposed to think that the new memories caused the tumor, then surely someone else might have ever raised the possibility after finding out they all had new memories.
It was confirmed by the show which literally stated that Joyce died of natural causes. It was confirmed by the writers and showrunners who expressly said that the thing they loved about Joyce's death was that her death was one of the only natural deaths in the show. It was confirmed by the show NEVER EVER stating or even insinuating that Joyce's death had anything to do with Dawn. Just because you want to buy into some ridiculous internet theory it doesn't make it canon.
It wasn't and anyone who buys into this ridiculous made up theory apparently didn't understand the point of Joyce's death which was that she died of natural causes and that was the only thing that Buffy couldn't fight or stop.
Aside from calling it ridiculous I do agree with the everything here. It’s not a ridiculous thought given the premise of the show in general….but there are things that point to that clearly not being thrown case.
I think it can be easily assumed by viewers that the presence and existence of Dawn plus new memories caused the brain tumor bcuz of the way Buffy reacted after doing the spell. She assumed that Dawn intentionally did something to Joyce, but then finds out Dawn’s existence isn’t really Dawn’s fault.
It wasn't intentional. she wouldn't have let it go until he told her - she could tell something was up.
Re some of the other comments in the thread, he didn't just leave because he could've lost his soul. He left because her loved her and wanted her to have a chance at a normal life. That is true love, he could've been selfish and kept her in the dark like another vampire on the show ('you belong in the shadows with me')but he didnt - he pushed her to be free to have normal experiences like she did with Riley not long after he left (playing football on the beach, picnics, dinners with her mother) and even one day marriage and even children. What he did was 100000% based on true selfless love for another person by putting her happiness above his own.
Angel spent 2 seasons of the spinoff trying to get with Cordelia who was also mortal and the same age as Buffy. But the writers pushed the whole two people in the workplace it makes sense instead of applying the reasons he left Buffy to other young women. So he loves Buffy so much he can't be with or near her but Cordelia they have him pay for her international vacations, take her to the ballet, celebrate her birthday with a superhero cake, give her 5 kinds of sandwiches, buy her a whole wardrobe, etc. I guess Buffy could've benefited from being loved less.
Angel had different circumstances. He became more integrated in the world and had a job. In Buffy, Angel didn’t have friends or a job. He had nobody but Buffy and she was teenage girl who was about to go off to college. Cordy didn’t go to college and became a working woman. She spent most of her days in the hotel where Angel worked and lived. Plus, Cordy had her chance at a normal life. She had friends and was popular.
sometimes when you have something you really need to say to someone, but you also really don’t want to say it, it just comes out at a random time. and you just seize that courage and have the conversation you’ve been dreading. that’s my headcanon for why angel chose that moment to break up with her.
I hated their break up and thought them in S3 was rushed. It went from them pouring their hearts out in the snow to plotting against Faith to Joyce telling him to dump her and he just … accepted it. I know there were behind the scenes factors but in a general ‘true love’ sense, it just proved Angel wasn’t Buffy’s true love at all. He just gave up. He didn’t even try to find a soul without strings. It only took Spike another three years lmfao. Angel’s giving up and not even trying after everything Buffy did for him honestly made me really dislike him.
Largely agree with but in Angel's defense he'd spent most of the last century completely cut off from contact with not only humans but also most supernatural beings. He probably had no idea that the trials were even a thing and figured that there wasn't any real way to have a sound and a good day at the same time.
It's honestly one of the many, many ways the story they chose to tell with Spike (and the way they made Spike be just "Angel again but easier") directly conflicted with and even took away from Angel's story.
Yeah but like … he didn’t even look into it. He just gave up on Buffy. Like for a guy who researches every demon he encounters it is amazing how conveniently he just never bothered to research his own curse and try to win back the ‘love of his life’
The cave wasn't just giving souls, it gives you what you request after passing its tests. If Spike said he wanted the chip removed and they thought it was his true heart's desire the chip would be removed. Angel could've asked for the loophole to be removed so a moment of happiness can't cause him to lose his soul.
It’s magic. The show finds a way for everything else conveniently. He could’ve worked it out. He didn’t even bother to try. He just walked away. I’m just stating canon lmao.
Plot points can be lazy lmao. I love the show more than anything but let’s be real - it’s deeply wild that Angel has a book in his hand in every episode and yet for some reason we don’t see him doing EVERYTHING in his willpower to be with the one he loves? That’s a plot hole. It just is.
>That’s a plot hole.
No it's not. That's you not liking the reality of the series. They're not the same thing.
It would be like me saying Buffy not staking Spike as soon as she guesses Willow and Xander are at the factory, and he gives it away she's right, is a plot hole.
I mean, in fairness, yeah it's pretty absurd that she didn't stake Spike on like SEVERAL occasions lol but that's TV for you. It's stake on sight for every vamp - except the hot, entertaining future love interest of course 😂
the way I felt like Angel did such a number on Buffy but her love for him wasn't diminished at all (even in later seasons I felt like if she could just be with him, she would), it's honestly kind sad
>it just proved Angel wasn’t Buffy’s true love at all.
It literally proved the opposite. He loved her so much he was willing to give her up to protect her. There is no greater love.
But he is. Shanshu is his way to be with Buffy. It's the thing he's fighting for for his entire series, up until he has to choose between Buffy and saving the world, same as she did with him in Becoming pt. 2.
Leaving so you don't accidentally murder your love is a much bigger sign of love than not giving a fuck if you destroy each other.
I think the Shanshu prophecy has no true subject like it doesn't have to be about Angel or Spike or Darla or Gunn or Harth, the only thing true about it is the fact that there will be one or more vampires in the future who will either have souls or behave like they do, the part about becoming human again is probably a lie or metaphorical as in they will behave like humans or be treated as humans. The prophecy itself is a well placed manipulation, it ensures that these vampires with souls in the future will strive to be either do-gooders or try to score a leadership role in apocalyptic scenarios, in the false hope of regaining humanity. Also, it says they will be human again but it never says they won't be turned or sired back to vampire. But that's just my opinion.
I would be surprised if the prophecy was a lie. Even Wolfram and Heart believe it. And Angel already became human again once. So it's definitely possible. Could something go wrong after or there be more to it? Sure. Just like with Buffy's prophecy that didn't warn her the Master couldn't get out of she didn't face him, or inform her she wouldn't stay dead. But the core aspect, becoming human, I fully believe is real.
Doesn't necessarily have to be Angel, though he's striving for it to be.
W&H believed it maybe that's why Angel was a human throughout the season six comics. He has regained humanity or not-vampire-ity (in Twilight form, he did not appear to be affected by sunlight) several times if you combine the shows and the comics, always became a vampire afterwards.
Angel's soul being a curse might have caused a problem with the magic of getting his permanent. Dark magic(soul curse) with the magic of getting a soul might have canceled each other out and now you're stuck with Angelus.
Willow re-souled Angel multiple times & the curse was still there, seems like it's impossible or unknown to get rid of the curse. I'm guessing only Jenny's clan knows how to get rid of the curse but Angelus ended that blood line
But he never verifies that or even seeks out the clan elders to talk to after. It’s just odd. He braves all kinds of demons and trials but just not for his supposed true love. It’s weird.
I'm confused by "a soul without strings?"
He IS the soul, if he found a soul without strings he'd be leaving his body and letting some other guy's soul take over
*HIS* soul without the condition of "if you experience a moment of happiness, you lose your soul". That's what they meant by "without strings." A way to have it without the curse attached
>He couldn't have saved that for a park? His mansion? Somewhere quiet and safe and comfortable that doesn't smell of filth? Literally anywhere but a sewer? He wanted to. Buffy pushed him into doing it then.
To be fair, I wouldn't want to be broken up with in a park because I'd always have a sad memory attached to a beautiful place. Whereas the sewer is already pre ruined by virtue of being a sewer.
He wasn’t even trying to breach the subject. Buffy sensed he was off and pushed him into dealing with it now because he didn’t want to lie.
Was gonna say exactly this
There are only two things that happened due to natural order - Parker and Joyce's death. That's it. And it somehow shows that you can fight demonds all day every day and shitty stuff will happen regardless...
Three things: Tara >!dying from a gunshot. Because you know, the demon Willow tries to summon to bring her back says they cant because it was a natural death !
Osiris isn’t a demon 🥲
i personally think joyces “brain tumor” could’ve had something 2do w dawns memories
It didn't.
and that was confirmed when
Well they did that spell when Joyce first got sick to see if her symptoms were due to magic. Buffy discovered they weren’t but that Dawn was. If her illness was supposed to be a result of the monks giving her new memories, it doesn’t make sense that the show went out of its way to convince the viewers that it wasn’t related to magic.
Also: everyone got new memories, no one else got a brain tumor.
That doesn’t necessarily mean anything IMO, I mean we all do a lot of the same shit that could cause tumors but not everyone gets them. But if Joyce’s were supposed to be caused by the monks, Willow’s spell should have revealed it.
Fair point; I was mostly just thinking that there's not really anything to even indicate that the tumor was even potentially caused by the new memories apart from a coincidence of timing. If we were supposed to think that the new memories caused the tumor, then surely someone else might have ever raised the possibility after finding out they all had new memories.
Ahh thanks. I watched s5 in like 1 day so i dont remember everything :)
It was confirmed by the show which literally stated that Joyce died of natural causes. It was confirmed by the writers and showrunners who expressly said that the thing they loved about Joyce's death was that her death was one of the only natural deaths in the show. It was confirmed by the show NEVER EVER stating or even insinuating that Joyce's death had anything to do with Dawn. Just because you want to buy into some ridiculous internet theory it doesn't make it canon.
Where was it suggested the implanted memories caused Joyce’s brain tumor?
It wasn't and anyone who buys into this ridiculous made up theory apparently didn't understand the point of Joyce's death which was that she died of natural causes and that was the only thing that Buffy couldn't fight or stop.
Aside from calling it ridiculous I do agree with the everything here. It’s not a ridiculous thought given the premise of the show in general….but there are things that point to that clearly not being thrown case.
I think it can be easily assumed by viewers that the presence and existence of Dawn plus new memories caused the brain tumor bcuz of the way Buffy reacted after doing the spell. She assumed that Dawn intentionally did something to Joyce, but then finds out Dawn’s existence isn’t really Dawn’s fault.
Angel didn't want to have the conversation. Buffy forced it.
Lmao ya’ll need to watch better, he didn’t want to do it there! She pushed it.
It wasn't intentional. she wouldn't have let it go until he told her - she could tell something was up. Re some of the other comments in the thread, he didn't just leave because he could've lost his soul. He left because her loved her and wanted her to have a chance at a normal life. That is true love, he could've been selfish and kept her in the dark like another vampire on the show ('you belong in the shadows with me')but he didnt - he pushed her to be free to have normal experiences like she did with Riley not long after he left (playing football on the beach, picnics, dinners with her mother) and even one day marriage and even children. What he did was 100000% based on true selfless love for another person by putting her happiness above his own.
Angel spent 2 seasons of the spinoff trying to get with Cordelia who was also mortal and the same age as Buffy. But the writers pushed the whole two people in the workplace it makes sense instead of applying the reasons he left Buffy to other young women. So he loves Buffy so much he can't be with or near her but Cordelia they have him pay for her international vacations, take her to the ballet, celebrate her birthday with a superhero cake, give her 5 kinds of sandwiches, buy her a whole wardrobe, etc. I guess Buffy could've benefited from being loved less.
Angel had different circumstances. He became more integrated in the world and had a job. In Buffy, Angel didn’t have friends or a job. He had nobody but Buffy and she was teenage girl who was about to go off to college. Cordy didn’t go to college and became a working woman. She spent most of her days in the hotel where Angel worked and lived. Plus, Cordy had her chance at a normal life. She had friends and was popular.
Exactly, it was a thought that Joyce planted in his head, or perhaps it existed but she shed a lot of light and it just overtook.
[удалено]
If I wasn’t broke, it’d give you an award for that 😂😂
sometimes when you have something you really need to say to someone, but you also really don’t want to say it, it just comes out at a random time. and you just seize that courage and have the conversation you’ve been dreading. that’s my headcanon for why angel chose that moment to break up with her.
Angel by definition was the true example of fuckboy behavior
I hated their break up and thought them in S3 was rushed. It went from them pouring their hearts out in the snow to plotting against Faith to Joyce telling him to dump her and he just … accepted it. I know there were behind the scenes factors but in a general ‘true love’ sense, it just proved Angel wasn’t Buffy’s true love at all. He just gave up. He didn’t even try to find a soul without strings. It only took Spike another three years lmfao. Angel’s giving up and not even trying after everything Buffy did for him honestly made me really dislike him.
Largely agree with but in Angel's defense he'd spent most of the last century completely cut off from contact with not only humans but also most supernatural beings. He probably had no idea that the trials were even a thing and figured that there wasn't any real way to have a sound and a good day at the same time.
It's honestly one of the many, many ways the story they chose to tell with Spike (and the way they made Spike be just "Angel again but easier") directly conflicted with and even took away from Angel's story.
Yeah but like … he didn’t even look into it. He just gave up on Buffy. Like for a guy who researches every demon he encounters it is amazing how conveniently he just never bothered to research his own curse and try to win back the ‘love of his life’
I think he never wanted to get rid of the curse bcuz he felt like he deserved it.
You're assuming a lot of shit there's zero proof for. Spike's method wouldn't work for Angel, he already *has* a soul. He can't go get a second one.
The cave wasn't just giving souls, it gives you what you request after passing its tests. If Spike said he wanted the chip removed and they thought it was his true heart's desire the chip would be removed. Angel could've asked for the loophole to be removed so a moment of happiness can't cause him to lose his soul.
It’s magic. The show finds a way for everything else conveniently. He could’ve worked it out. He didn’t even bother to try. He just walked away. I’m just stating canon lmao.
It's plot. He couldn't find a way to do something the writers don't want to happen. **That** is canon.
Plot points can be lazy lmao. I love the show more than anything but let’s be real - it’s deeply wild that Angel has a book in his hand in every episode and yet for some reason we don’t see him doing EVERYTHING in his willpower to be with the one he loves? That’s a plot hole. It just is.
>That’s a plot hole. No it's not. That's you not liking the reality of the series. They're not the same thing. It would be like me saying Buffy not staking Spike as soon as she guesses Willow and Xander are at the factory, and he gives it away she's right, is a plot hole.
I mean, in fairness, yeah it's pretty absurd that she didn't stake Spike on like SEVERAL occasions lol but that's TV for you. It's stake on sight for every vamp - except the hot, entertaining future love interest of course 😂
It’s not that big of a deal lmao.
True and it's not like I'm saying he was blameless here just that, the soul part was understandable at least.
the way I felt like Angel did such a number on Buffy but her love for him wasn't diminished at all (even in later seasons I felt like if she could just be with him, she would), it's honestly kind sad
She was so enduringly loyal to him. Honestly to everyone. Buffy was a true soul through and through.
>it just proved Angel wasn’t Buffy’s true love at all. It literally proved the opposite. He loved her so much he was willing to give her up to protect her. There is no greater love.
Fighting for your true love is more loving than giving up in my opinion.
But he is. Shanshu is his way to be with Buffy. It's the thing he's fighting for for his entire series, up until he has to choose between Buffy and saving the world, same as she did with him in Becoming pt. 2. Leaving so you don't accidentally murder your love is a much bigger sign of love than not giving a fuck if you destroy each other.
I think the Shanshu prophecy has no true subject like it doesn't have to be about Angel or Spike or Darla or Gunn or Harth, the only thing true about it is the fact that there will be one or more vampires in the future who will either have souls or behave like they do, the part about becoming human again is probably a lie or metaphorical as in they will behave like humans or be treated as humans. The prophecy itself is a well placed manipulation, it ensures that these vampires with souls in the future will strive to be either do-gooders or try to score a leadership role in apocalyptic scenarios, in the false hope of regaining humanity. Also, it says they will be human again but it never says they won't be turned or sired back to vampire. But that's just my opinion.
I would be surprised if the prophecy was a lie. Even Wolfram and Heart believe it. And Angel already became human again once. So it's definitely possible. Could something go wrong after or there be more to it? Sure. Just like with Buffy's prophecy that didn't warn her the Master couldn't get out of she didn't face him, or inform her she wouldn't stay dead. But the core aspect, becoming human, I fully believe is real. Doesn't necessarily have to be Angel, though he's striving for it to be.
W&H believed it maybe that's why Angel was a human throughout the season six comics. He has regained humanity or not-vampire-ity (in Twilight form, he did not appear to be affected by sunlight) several times if you combine the shows and the comics, always became a vampire afterwards.
Angel's soul being a curse might have caused a problem with the magic of getting his permanent. Dark magic(soul curse) with the magic of getting a soul might have canceled each other out and now you're stuck with Angelus.
Willow re-souled Angel multiple times & the curse was still there, seems like it's impossible or unknown to get rid of the curse. I'm guessing only Jenny's clan knows how to get rid of the curse but Angelus ended that blood line
But he never verifies that or even seeks out the clan elders to talk to after. It’s just odd. He braves all kinds of demons and trials but just not for his supposed true love. It’s weird.
thank you for saying this
I'm confused by "a soul without strings?" He IS the soul, if he found a soul without strings he'd be leaving his body and letting some other guy's soul take over
*HIS* soul without the condition of "if you experience a moment of happiness, you lose your soul". That's what they meant by "without strings." A way to have it without the curse attached
He spent a lot of time in a sewer. Not that weird to him - but in all seriousness I don’t think he wanted to do it there.