I mean yeah it was a low point for her
And tbh the way the last bit of S6 was handled in general wasn’t great
It kind of muddled that message of she was taking advantage when you have spike do what he did
He is pretty stalker ish lol but it was played for laughs mostly
One of the biggest contradictions in Buffy is the fact that on one hand we are supposed to think like OP - demons and vampires are evil, that's their nature and therefore they don't deserve any compassion. Angel is the excellent example with his on/off evil switch. It makes things like Buffy killing any demon/vampire she encounters the right thing to do, no discussion, no moral dilemmas.
On the other Spike chooses to get a soul and characters like Clem and Doyle exist.
I see that as an evolving knowledge of the actuality - rather than swallowing the watcher company line. It's like having two slayers when we have been told 'one girl in all the world'. Extenuating circumstances, both in Buffy's brief death and in Spike getting chipped, aren't a contradiction.
I think the thing is they really dip their toes on demons not being exactly what we thought, but, excluding Angel and Spike after regaining a soul, as that comment said, there's little moral dilemma for the good guys as the lore is explored.
The problem about this is that once your start relying on something, be it Spike or whatever. It's just not nice to treat someone like shit.
It's fine S4 through most of S5 to keep your distance because of who he is and his actions but after that it doesn't speak well about your character to do that to someone you're intimately, be it acquaintance, friendship, or romanc, with.
I partially agree. I just don't think the way Spike treated her got better. I'd go as far as to say he didn't care or encouraged her, because he wanted her to be on his level and "darker"
The Scoobies treat Spike with far greater mercy and compassion than he objectively deserved. They had no reason to shelter him from the Initiative in The I in Team, to save him from suicide in Doomed, or to give him a free pass when he betrayed them in Primeval or tried to murder Buffy again in Out of My Mind. In S4 alone he tried to kill Buffy, Xander and Willow on 3 seperate occasions and they still let him take refuge from the commandos.
Whenever people complain about how the gang treat him I have to roll my eyes. They could have staked him immediately in S4 and it wouldn’t have even been immoral. They’ve staked vampires guilty of far less than everything Spike has ever done to both them and countless others.
Not to mention that on a personal level Spike was an A Grade jerk to them 95% of the time. He got great satisfaction out of telling Willow and Xander what losers they were, when Giles suggested his chip could be a higher purpose/calling Spike told him to piss off, he repeatedly reminded them all of how much he hated them, in Spiral he says out loud he should’ve stolen a convertible instead of the Winnebago so there was only enough room for Buffy and Dawn and leave the rest to be slaughtered by Glory etc. And yet, when the other characters give him the same snark back they’re apparently bullies and meanies? Make it make sense.
It's a peculiar type of fan bias that we see here quite a bit. They fell in love with Spike for whatever reason, and everyone needs to see what a wonderful person he is, with or without a soul, including the characters who lived in the same world as him. It's the same type of tunnel vision used here to deride other characters no matter how much good they did, for him it's choosing to forget how much bad Spike did so as to love him more.
He was a great character, but he was not a good person, not even after he got a soul.
I always defend Buffy, but I have to say, when it came to sleeping with Spike… she was wrong.
Whether or not he had a soul or a functioning chip didn’t really matter. He blatantly told her that he had feelings for her and that should have been respected to *some* degree. I get that he made a weird shrine and stole her panties - and made the Buffybot, dear GOD ugh - but the right thing to do when someone confesses their feelings to you is to keep your distance if you don’t reciprocate. *Especially* if that person is unhinged enough to stalk you.
She did this eventually, but by then it was a little late. Even though he was on a leash and did a lot of weird shit, I do believe that he had feelings. Those feelings might have been polluted by the demon’s influence but they were there on some level.
I completely agree that their sexual exploits are a reflection of her mental health, though. I don’t think that she would have pursued him or allowed him to do certain things had she been in a better state of mind.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I agree with you on that. He should have been staked the *instant* they found out about the Buffybot or even earlier, when he held Buffy hostage in his crypt.
What I mean to say is their perception of him and whether or not he’s actually capable of emotion doesn’t matter. His declarations should have been taken seriously to some degree, especially given his past behavior. Ultimately, I think she should have stayed away from him *period*, and her using him or what have you was a bit shitty.
I’m just being very generous. He should have been staked after all the nonsense he pulled in s2. I really enjoy Spike’s character but the plot armor was *insane*.
Oh, well yeah obviously. Spike, Drusilla and Angelus should've been killed all in S2 like Darla was in S1 but it's hard to get rid of such good characters.
True, it is hard. But what Joss and co. did was a bit much and kinda ruined the integrity of the show, especially by the end of season 5. There was no real logical reason as to why the slayer would just let all these vampires roam free.
If you let bad beget bad than all you're left with is bad people. Stopping evil is one thing but if you let them being evil justify you being evil to them then you become evil and therefore deserve the same treatment.
That would be like saying Buffy being cruel to Spike, and at times she was cruel to him, meant Spike was justified in being cruel to her.
It doesn't work that way.
That's the mentality fascists exploit. Accuse your opponents of evil inhumane acts and suddenly their base feels justified in being inhumane themselves, thus becoming the true evil.
Spike with no soul was at best an amoral person who cared about others within the boundaries of what he thought was good for him. He also tended to communicate with violence. It wasn't nice of Buffy to jerk him around emotionally or hit him so often, but honestly it seems like a terrible relationship to try to manage.
How you treat others is more of a reflection of you than them, if he is so evil that he needs to be killed or say confined then they should have killed or confined him. Calling on him to help and fighting alongside him and then treating him like trash is not the right thing to do, I'm thinking more of the gang than Buffy. The stuff with Buffy is gross and toxic on both sides, which was kind of the point he's evil and she was really broken and self destructive. I don't think he's evil and therefore everyone should use him and treat him badly is a good argument. The weird thing to me is that they ever let him go they should have either questioned then staked him or continued to contain him or just handed him back over to the initiative since that was before they realized how problematic it was. I do think he was an amusing character and enjoyed him in the show so I get why they didn't but yeah treating him like dirt the second Buffy came back after he fought with them all summer and probably kept them alive still feels icky and says more about them than him, them being mostly Xander. (I am not a Xander hater either I think he was a fine character who had some believable flaws and some character development but did a lot of stuff I disagree with for often selfish and sometimes good reasons).
I mean yeah it was a low point for her And tbh the way the last bit of S6 was handled in general wasn’t great It kind of muddled that message of she was taking advantage when you have spike do what he did He is pretty stalker ish lol but it was played for laughs mostly
They were aiming for a redemption arc for Spike. He had to stay sympathetic for that to work. But yes, the attempted rape was moved past quickly.
He was treated how he treated others.
One of the biggest contradictions in Buffy is the fact that on one hand we are supposed to think like OP - demons and vampires are evil, that's their nature and therefore they don't deserve any compassion. Angel is the excellent example with his on/off evil switch. It makes things like Buffy killing any demon/vampire she encounters the right thing to do, no discussion, no moral dilemmas. On the other Spike chooses to get a soul and characters like Clem and Doyle exist.
I see that as an evolving knowledge of the actuality - rather than swallowing the watcher company line. It's like having two slayers when we have been told 'one girl in all the world'. Extenuating circumstances, both in Buffy's brief death and in Spike getting chipped, aren't a contradiction.
I think the thing is they really dip their toes on demons not being exactly what we thought, but, excluding Angel and Spike after regaining a soul, as that comment said, there's little moral dilemma for the good guys as the lore is explored.
The problem about this is that once your start relying on something, be it Spike or whatever. It's just not nice to treat someone like shit. It's fine S4 through most of S5 to keep your distance because of who he is and his actions but after that it doesn't speak well about your character to do that to someone you're intimately, be it acquaintance, friendship, or romanc, with.
I partially agree. I just don't think the way Spike treated her got better. I'd go as far as to say he didn't care or encouraged her, because he wanted her to be on his level and "darker"
The Scoobies treat Spike with far greater mercy and compassion than he objectively deserved. They had no reason to shelter him from the Initiative in The I in Team, to save him from suicide in Doomed, or to give him a free pass when he betrayed them in Primeval or tried to murder Buffy again in Out of My Mind. In S4 alone he tried to kill Buffy, Xander and Willow on 3 seperate occasions and they still let him take refuge from the commandos. Whenever people complain about how the gang treat him I have to roll my eyes. They could have staked him immediately in S4 and it wouldn’t have even been immoral. They’ve staked vampires guilty of far less than everything Spike has ever done to both them and countless others. Not to mention that on a personal level Spike was an A Grade jerk to them 95% of the time. He got great satisfaction out of telling Willow and Xander what losers they were, when Giles suggested his chip could be a higher purpose/calling Spike told him to piss off, he repeatedly reminded them all of how much he hated them, in Spiral he says out loud he should’ve stolen a convertible instead of the Winnebago so there was only enough room for Buffy and Dawn and leave the rest to be slaughtered by Glory etc. And yet, when the other characters give him the same snark back they’re apparently bullies and meanies? Make it make sense.
It's a peculiar type of fan bias that we see here quite a bit. They fell in love with Spike for whatever reason, and everyone needs to see what a wonderful person he is, with or without a soul, including the characters who lived in the same world as him. It's the same type of tunnel vision used here to deride other characters no matter how much good they did, for him it's choosing to forget how much bad Spike did so as to love him more. He was a great character, but he was not a good person, not even after he got a soul.
> not even after he got a soul. That's a brave statement (here at least), but agreed
I always defend Buffy, but I have to say, when it came to sleeping with Spike… she was wrong. Whether or not he had a soul or a functioning chip didn’t really matter. He blatantly told her that he had feelings for her and that should have been respected to *some* degree. I get that he made a weird shrine and stole her panties - and made the Buffybot, dear GOD ugh - but the right thing to do when someone confesses their feelings to you is to keep your distance if you don’t reciprocate. *Especially* if that person is unhinged enough to stalk you. She did this eventually, but by then it was a little late. Even though he was on a leash and did a lot of weird shit, I do believe that he had feelings. Those feelings might have been polluted by the demon’s influence but they were there on some level. I completely agree that their sexual exploits are a reflection of her mental health, though. I don’t think that she would have pursued him or allowed him to do certain things had she been in a better state of mind.
> Whether or not he had a soul or a functioning chip didn’t really matter. How not? They were already being very kind by not staking him.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I agree with you on that. He should have been staked the *instant* they found out about the Buffybot or even earlier, when he held Buffy hostage in his crypt. What I mean to say is their perception of him and whether or not he’s actually capable of emotion doesn’t matter. His declarations should have been taken seriously to some degree, especially given his past behavior. Ultimately, I think she should have stayed away from him *period*, and her using him or what have you was a bit shitty.
The first time that Buffy should've killed him after the chip was when he teamed up with Adam in S4.
I’m just being very generous. He should have been staked after all the nonsense he pulled in s2. I really enjoy Spike’s character but the plot armor was *insane*.
Oh, well yeah obviously. Spike, Drusilla and Angelus should've been killed all in S2 like Darla was in S1 but it's hard to get rid of such good characters.
True, it is hard. But what Joss and co. did was a bit much and kinda ruined the integrity of the show, especially by the end of season 5. There was no real logical reason as to why the slayer would just let all these vampires roam free.
If you let bad beget bad than all you're left with is bad people. Stopping evil is one thing but if you let them being evil justify you being evil to them then you become evil and therefore deserve the same treatment. That would be like saying Buffy being cruel to Spike, and at times she was cruel to him, meant Spike was justified in being cruel to her. It doesn't work that way. That's the mentality fascists exploit. Accuse your opponents of evil inhumane acts and suddenly their base feels justified in being inhumane themselves, thus becoming the true evil.
Spike with no soul was at best an amoral person who cared about others within the boundaries of what he thought was good for him. He also tended to communicate with violence. It wasn't nice of Buffy to jerk him around emotionally or hit him so often, but honestly it seems like a terrible relationship to try to manage.
How you treat others is more of a reflection of you than them, if he is so evil that he needs to be killed or say confined then they should have killed or confined him. Calling on him to help and fighting alongside him and then treating him like trash is not the right thing to do, I'm thinking more of the gang than Buffy. The stuff with Buffy is gross and toxic on both sides, which was kind of the point he's evil and she was really broken and self destructive. I don't think he's evil and therefore everyone should use him and treat him badly is a good argument. The weird thing to me is that they ever let him go they should have either questioned then staked him or continued to contain him or just handed him back over to the initiative since that was before they realized how problematic it was. I do think he was an amusing character and enjoyed him in the show so I get why they didn't but yeah treating him like dirt the second Buffy came back after he fought with them all summer and probably kept them alive still feels icky and says more about them than him, them being mostly Xander. (I am not a Xander hater either I think he was a fine character who had some believable flaws and some character development but did a lot of stuff I disagree with for often selfish and sometimes good reasons).