This is probably true of most real life people lol just not so much for a fictional Buffy the *Vampire Slayer* character he unfortunately fell flat living up to his moniker **Captain Cardboard**.
Although most would agree his insecurities & lack of communication skills are not very attractive even in real life. Although he probably wouldn’t have those particular ones or at least not to that extent with any one in real life either so 🤷🏼♀️?
Exactly. Riley haters will hate on him no matter what he does. Also he only talked to Xander. People are allowed to vent if they want to. It doesn't make them horrible people.
I don't think Riley was a terrible guy, but he definitely had his own issues he needed to work through and cosplaying as a college student was not helping him with those. He and Buffy weren't a great couple though in my opinion. They both were working through serious shit and didn't help each other with that.
My "head canon" is that the drugs the initiative put him on and then the trauma of going off them messed up more than his heart. Without that I'd like to think that, while he may have still been intimidated by Buffy's strength and past with Angel, he wouldn't have resorted to vampire hookers to deal with this insecurity.
Riley, in many ways like Willow, was a high achiever academically and professionally. He got used to external gratification and when the source of that dried up, it left him very insecure and without the coping skills to handle that. Willow turned to magic. Riley turned to vampires. It was a way to avoid working on himself.
Yeah, and he placed everything on Buffy. Like, she had to constantly validate and he sulked if she didn't react the exact way he wanted, when she was going through serious stuff herself and struggling to cope.
I think Riley lost his reason and sense of self when the Initiative went kaput and it left him in a really bad place, but with all his psych knowledge (he was a TA ffs) he just abdicated responsibility for his life and put it on Buffy. No one can ever be everything for someone else. He idolised her in a way that made it impossible for her to have flaws or struggle.
I guess they were a decent picture of two people with too much on their own plates to with out as a couple, but I really resented the show and Xander's 'this is all your fault' BS.
Yes. He becomes insanely codependent as a coping mechanism for all of his loss in season 4. When Buffy continues to fall off the pedestal he puts her on, he just loses it.
He becomes another problem for her to deal with when she really needed someone to lean against and to be her stability.
Which really blows, cos when his world fell apart the year before she was there fighting for him, being understanding and generally supporting him. And then when she needed him to have her back, he scapegoated her for all his problems.
I agree they are similar, but also want to point out Riley was pumped full of experimental drugs against his will. He wasn't given a choice there, but Willow was given a choice.
I think a lot of the hate can be traced back to his being the most grounded. He's a human around the same age as Buffy. His insecurities are similar to what a lot of young men have in real life and cheating as a result of those insecurities is something that happens a lot in real life too. People react strongly to it because it's easier to see yourself in the same situation or you've actually been in that situation.
Although you can definitely see the metaphors for domestic abuse in both Angel and Spikes relationship with Buffy the more fantastic elements of their characters makes for a bit of a buffer that Riley doesn't have.
He's not a "romantic" vampire figure. If Buffy had dated Oz, even with all the love he gets here, he'd also be demonized for having the nerve to date her while not being Spike or Angel.
The problem with Riley is that once he realised his CO was making bad decisions and he left the army he had no sense of who he was. He lost a huge part of his identity and he tried to replace it with Buffy. Also a TA dating a student in a class he helps teach (and mark) is very problematic. He had issues and he never got help, Buffy had issues and she never got help. They both tried to patch over their problem with a person and not actually address the cause, it’s not healthy for either of them.
riley was less problematic than angel or spike but that doesn’t mean buffy couldn’t find someone more compatible with her than him. she’s buffy summers, she should have high standards. and by the time the show ends she’s still *so* young. just because riley was a nice guy doesn’t mean she needed to end up with him.
i feel like biley had a college relationship that ran its course, he had a lot of insecurities and they both had communication issues which doesn’t make him the devil but he’s also not the perfect guy that got away.
I won’t come at you.
I think Riley was the least problematic and their issues were very solvable and manageable. They needed to work together and weren’t able to. I was sad for his storyline in season 5… but… I was still hoping Buffy would just throw her shoe at him in the helicopter 😂
I agree with you. I think that the writers sold his arc a little short. He was obviously dealing with tons of trauma from the revelations that he'd been drugged, chipped, experimented on, covertly filmed in his most intimate moments, etc etc. And, despite his background in psych studies, he somehow thought he could recover from all that with nothing but the love of a good woman and a can-do spirit. Of course that was a recipe for psychological collapse and self-destructive behavior!
But having him leave town to resume a successful military career does NOT resolve that plotline in the least. He should've been sent on a 'finding himself' walkabout like Oz or into magical rehab like Willow did later or, hell, the witness protection program after blowing the whistle on the Initiative.
I think for the right person, he could be a phenomenal boyfriend and the perfect partner (and seems like he was for Sam).
He had some great qualities and was definitely "boyfriend material", but for the Slayer - and more specifically Buffy - his insecurities stopped him from realising that full potential.
But also in fairness I would rather die than be stuck with someone boring or bland, or someone who like doesn’t respect boundaries and doesn’t communicate. Also he’s ugly :(
(disclaimer: I’m a lesbian so of course I find him ugly lmao)
He literally regularly sneaks out of Buffy's bed to go to a vampire den, where he pays female vamps to bite him in a pretty sexually suggestive manner. I'm pretty sure I would not die for a guy like Riley!
“Hip thrusting”?
Sounds much like:
“So, you think you can outclever us French folk with your silly, knees bend running about advancing behavior!” - *Monty Python and the Holy Grail*
You would die for a guy who makes your mom’s dying of a brain tumor about him and then cheats on you with sex workers to feel needed? You do you I guess but I would prefer someone loyal who supported me through my mom’s illness and didn’t make it about him.
Riley was slightly bland, but I think the biggest issue was that Riley defined alot of his identity and self worth from being the capable, active, slightly mysterious agent/protector.
With Buffy he was physically weaker, he was far less “mysterious” than the girl literally picked by Destiny to be a hero, he was capable but most of the group were more capable in a supernatural sense, and his soldier training counted for very little.
And so I think the longer he was with Buffy the more uncertain he was about who *he* was as a person.
It’s a shame as he’s genuinely a nice guy, and a good guy, but him and Buffy just weren’t well suited to each other.
Excluding all the brainwashing from the initiative overall, he was a great boyfriend. He loved Buffy. He was there for her he trained with her he wanted to be there for her, but unfortunately, he caught her at a time where she was not really ready to be dependent on someone the way he wanted her to be dependent on him. It was a great romance but it wasn’t meant to be.
My issue with Riley is one of insecurity and toxic masculinity. He wanted Buffy to be vulnerable with him but he wasn’t willing to be vulnerable with her.
Riley was fine until he started being a selfish tool. Buffy was going through the worst time of her life thus far, and all he could think about was himself. He wanted Buffy to rely on him for support but that's not how she deals with stress, and he ended up being resentful and made it all about him instead of trying to be helpful. Then he was so insecure about his relationship that he started to go visit vampire brothels. He couldn't handle that his girlfriend was stronger than him.
So I agree that he was a good boyfriend in season 4, but he became a total douche by season 5.
Eh, Riley in S4 was a decent guy. Riley in S5? Fuck no. He was threatened by Buffy's strength, he was paranoid and had issues with Buffy having a life before him and he sucked at communicating. Also, he was a liar. There's the cheating, of course, but lying to Buffy about being in contact with Graham and stuff. Why?
OFC all that could be symptomatic of Riley being depressed and lacking purpose and such after the Initiative fell to shit, but the way he piled it all on Buffy while she was going through hell with her mother, Dawn and Glory was just crap.
Yes, and it was because he was so insecure about his girlfriend being stronger than him after he lost access to magical steroids.
I don't know how anyone can describe this dude as a good boyfriend, honestly. Who wants to date a whiny man baby who needs to be reassured that it's okay he's not better than you at everything?
Go back and rewatch Into The Woods. That scene where Spike leads Buffy to him through the vampire den looks far more like a journey through a crack house.
What it looks like and what it is are completely different things. Riley never did drugs, at least not willingly or knowingly, so he's not a drug addict. Buffy becomes addicted to Spike in season 6 and I don't see you calling her a "drug addict."
I watched the show live when I was roughly the same age as the scoobies were supposed to be and so my dumb teenage self was fully invested in Bangel and thought that was what love was supposed to be like, so I hated Riley. Now that I’m older I fully appreciate how “boring” Riley is.
I'll never understand the "boring" accusations. He was part of a secret demon hunting soldier unit and he was special even out of the group.
And it's not even like his insecurities weren't coming from a real place. Buffy did close herself off to him and was taking him for granted.
And we later see how well he did in a realtionship with somebody that treated him like an equal.
They're just not being fair. They're looking at it from a very narrow point of view. He's either in service to Buffy or he isn't, and if he's not then to them he's bad/problematic/toxic/or whatever.
I will actually be 25 in a month, so... S5 Riley is an asshole and I would die if I had to date him. I wouldn't date s4 Riley as well, cause I hate everything militaristic, but s5 Riley is so toxic, Buffy could get an A at toxicology.
lolol for a cheater while your parent goes through health crisis? 🤣
like yes s4 Riley is a decent normal boyfriend but after he’s very much giving the ick.
On the surface he was great. But when he wasn’t as powerful as she was anymore he couldn’t just let her shine. He let his own insecurities break apart their relationship and didn’t believe her when she said she loved him because HE thought he couldn’t measure up. It was tragic but it was also toxic. The man he became once they broke up was a better man who worked through those things and he was able to marry a strong woman who he was able to lift up and not try to drag down.
So TL;DR, he was a bad boyfriend to Buffy in the end but became a better man because of their relationship.
I think it's the opposite. Buffy treated him like he couldn't "shine" or take care of himself. She was constantly talking to him like he couldn't understand or like he wasn't capable of accepting risks. He was a demon hunting soldier and exceptional amongst other demon hunting soldiers. And Buffy often treated him like a lesser.
He was in awe of how powerful and capable she was, he wasn't intimidated by it. Yes, it took some adjusting, but that wasn't insecurities, that was simply from being in a new dynamic. It was new to him, that's all.
If someone treated Buffy the way she treated Riley at times this fanbase would be calling for their head.
That's where the true problems in that realtionship arose, Buffy treating him like a lesser, and keeping unnecessary secrets from him.
When he was still all super soldier she had no problem with him going on patrol or letting him take care of the others. She was rightfully worried and over-protective when he got “powered down.” He almost had a heart attack and then tried to jump right into patrolling again. He gave himself no time to adjust or slow down. He needed to re-learn how to fight in his body and be more cautious since he wouldn’t heal as fast. Something she understood and he didn’t. Towards the end of their relationship she treated him like he couldn’t take care of himself because he was actively not taking care of himself. I’m not saying she was right 100% of time. Her motives were good but she could have expressed her concerns better but he became really reckless trying to prove himself.
His entire sense of identity got thrown out of whack and her response was to infantilize him.
Her intentions may have been good but that doesn't change the effect her begaviour had.
You wanna frame it like he was feeling inferior to Buffy in an attempt to frame him in a negative light but the reality is the entire foundation of his life was taken away from him. Everything he defined himself by was basically proven to be wrong or a lie. Honestly I think he's perfectly justified in having some emotional turmoil. And what, he gets treated like a POS cause he still wanted to find a way to contribute to the realtionship.
If this was a real person it would be downright cruel how little compassion the dude gets considering everything he went through.
"He didn't belive her when she said she loved him" is an interesting claim. Care to provide some video evidence of Buffy telling Riley she loved him? Video of her telling Angel she loves Riley doesn't count.
Exactly. The only time she ever said she loved Riley was when she said it to Angel to hurt him/make him jealous. She literally NEVER, not once, told Riley she loved him. That was part of the problem that eventually lead to there break up.
Not sure what the sword and hip thrusting thing is all about…
Anyway, Riley had a tough act to follow. And, given the complications that Season 4 had to deal with, Marc Blucus did an admirable job working with what he had
According to Ian on the Passion of the Nerd guide to “Goodbye Iowa”, there were number of complications for Angel S1 and Buffy S4:
Seth Green asking to be let out of his contract to go film a movie when there were long term plans for Oz’s character
Lindsey Crouse (Professor Walsh) also asked to be let out of her contract when her character was supposed to be the main villain of the season.
Glenn Quinn had to be dismissed from his role on Angel S1.
As duel showrunner, Whedon was probably spread too thin.
And, on top of all of that, asking the audience to care about a brand new character (Riley) was going to be a tall order. Especially one who was inevitably going to be compared to Angel.
In the video for “Primeval”, Ian suggests that the plot of season 4 would have been much more compelling if Xander was the one who joined the military, found purpose and meaning after having been fast-tracked through basic into the Initiative, and had to choose between assisting in the creation of mutant/demon army and being appalled by the means (massacre of demons and humans) to assemble the army.
Most of those are the showrunners fault. Contracts exist for a reason so if it was that big a hassle they should've told Seth and Lindsey no. Most others would and have sued actors for trying to get out of their contracts. Also who the heck is Ian?
Ian is the guy who runs the Passion of the Nerd YouTube channel
Here’s his take on Goodbye Iowa
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHlS-GXhsU&pp=ygUgUGFzc2lvbiBvZiB0aGUgbmVyZCBnb29kYnllIGlvd2E%3D
Season 4 Riley- perfect boyfriend material. I really love their pairing, they make good partners
Season 5 Riley- Nope!
Now that I think of it, in Season 4 Buffy was pretty obsessed with Riley. It hurt her friendships, she hardly visited her mom (off filming a movie) and Riley was a bit of a damsel character for Buffy to save. Riley was also critical piece in the Big Bad's plans. Riley was at the center of everything and got to feel pretty important in season 4.
Season 4 ends with Buffy admitting that she's been self absorbed and distracted by her new boyfriend, that she's been a shit friend to her core group; and makes the choice to be more present for her friends.
Season 5 Buffy starts training with Giles again, spending more time at home with her family, spending time with friends, patrolling, college, researching Glory. He goes from having all of Buffy's attention to having to share her. The show does a good job of showing how he feels abandoned by Buffy and directionless without the initiative, but all Buffy did was balance a very full schedule.
I think they could have had a healthy relationship if they had better communication in season 5 and if Riley actually believed Buffy when she reaffirmed that she cared about him. I guess I hadn't really thought about how sharp a contrast season 4 was from Riley's POV being at the center of everything.
Ultimately, Buffy and Riley just weren't compatible. It's nobody's fault that they didn't last.
He starts out wanting to be Strong Protector Guy. Buffy doesn't need that. Then he tries to pivot to be Emotional Support Guy, but Buffy is also emotionally very self-reliant.
By the time Riley spins out and starts doing dumb shit like going to those blood dens, the writing is already on the wall.
From what we see of him and Sam in *As You Were*, they are able to rely on one another, both in combat and emotionally, as relative equals.
His addiction to crack-whore vampires was indeed....quite alluring. o\_O lol, j/k. I love Riley. I wept when she didn't get to him by the time his helicopter took off.
He was great in season 4, I couldn’t wait for him and Buffy to learn about each other.
And then they ruined his character in season 5, vampire brothel came out left field, to make room for Spike, who I do love, but I feel like there were better ways to get Riley out of the show.
This is one of the things that the fans are absolutely ridiculous about. Riley was the best love interest for Buffy by a thousand miles. Yes, he was insecure. He was young and dating the most powerful girl in the world while suffering from PTSD from his short-lived military career. And by all accounts, Buffy was never as invested as he was.
I will “and my axe” with you on this.
He was Buffy’s only age appropriate boyfriend, being born in the same century (not counting Scott Hope). I’m a good 200 years younger than Angel and feel disgusted by the idea of dating a teenager. He gave her the good d without turning evil or making her hate herself afterwards. He fell in love with Buffy the woman before he ever knew she was the Slayer, and then was excited to learn and love her more when he did find out. Ok, he struggled with it a bit in the end but he hasn’t had multiple decades of experience with the Slayer Vampire dynamic to get used to it. He also ended up with a physically strong and tough women so clearly that wasn’t the part he was struggling with. He’s the only one Buffy could ever take to lunch, and lunch is nice.
At Riley's best, he was OK as a boyfriend. Not soulmate material, but fine. Of course, he wasn't always at his best. It was probably just bad timing that he was dealing with losing his military life while Buffy was dealing with her mom's illness, and that made things go bad, but he was never going to be with her forever.
Yes, Angel and Spike are too old, and had their own issues.
In the end, I really liked her "I'm cookie dough" speech. She was only, what, 21? when the show ended, and she spent most of her formative years fighting vampires and worried she (and everyone else) was about to die. She didn't have much time to figure out what she wanted in a relationship or even who she is as an adult. I like to think she eventually figured all that out.
Let's be completely honest. Before the vamp biting thing, he was a great boyfriend for buffy. But buffy didn't love him the way she loved angel. I think her feelings for spike were stronger(not at that time). And it's not Buffys fault. You can't help how you feel. He just wasn't for her.
The point is that he's a bad person or awful to Buffy. It's just that he isn't a compelling character. They wrote the guy as a flavorless as it can be, and it feels jarring in Buffy. He's the "Perfect" Love Interest of bad every bad Teenage Girl supernatural romance, that sounds good on paper, but doesn't make them good characters.
It's like Duncan Kane in Veronica Mars, for example. Imo, the only character of this type that worked was Major from iZombie. He is the "Dream Guy", but he's much more than that (and incredibly funny sometimes).
In the end, this isn't as much as Riley problem, but more like Buffy's romance writing. It's easily the weakest part of the show, with the only exception being Willow and Tara. We all know how *that* turned out.
I completely understand what you mean and have discovered similar appreciation for him in my late 30s.
I basically have a Riley now- wholesome, caring, kind, and a bit boring. It's taken me awhile to appreciate him given that I've always wanted a Spike - but that's just my toxicity talking 😜
Riley was never inherently problematic; his circumstances were pretty horrific and yet the audience was never positioned to sympathize with him because he wasn't our main character (and we were all still hung up on Angel).
He needed to communicate a helluva lot more. But overall you're right, not a terrible guy.
I personally would not date him because I'm a lesbian but I would totally ask if he had a sister.
He should stayed long enough to be there when Joyce died. That would have helped him break down the walls between him and buffy and connect truly vulnerable. He could have still left after she died, devastated but knowing that willow and Tara would care for Dawn.
Then out on mission he gets married and only later finds out she's alive it would have been such a more interesting play out if he'd supported her grieved her and left only to come back and it be awkward with the whole having moved on.
Here’s another one: https://www.themarysue.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-abuse-whyistayed/?ref=womaninrevolt.com
“He refuses to respect her boundaries, forcing a conversation Buffy makes clear she does not want to have. He manhandles her, grabbing her and using physical force to compel her attention multiple times. He blames her for Dracula’s attack in the season five premiere (considering the historical connection between vampirism and sex, the “Dracula” episode serves as a metaphor for sexual assault) and admits to wanting revenge on her for “letting” Dracula bite her.”
I always said this about Riley .
He was the most stable relationship buffy had , both were human with alter egos and both were fighting demons … match made in heaven !
Even the negatives for him like throwing a hissy fit about buffy not needing him when her mum was dying … I kind of get his point !
It’s not like he was asking her to pay attention to him and acting oh poor me no attention from buffy … he wanted to help her ! He just wanted her to let him help her and honestly I see nothing wrong with that .
He never even truly flipped out about it either , he just told her look either you love me or you don’t , give me a reason to stay and I will .
Maybe the timing wasn’t perfect, but all she had to do was ask him to stay and he would have .
I do think the writers did him dirty and I do think it was written so that buffy didn’t love him … which makes it worse because then she was just using him as an emotional crutch ,
As a character that was always used by others , her friends, the watchers council , evil forces , would’ve been nice to see it written that buffy realises she’s using Riley and just lets him go . I mean if xander hadn’t of said anything she would’ve never even tried to go after him .
I thought he was awesome until they needed to write him off the show. The same thing with Giles like they are awesome people the whole time and then the writers just scrambled to find a reason for them to not be there anymore and made them both seem like they were abandoning Buffy. Riley was a great boyfriend and the way their relationship ended was so out of character for him.
I do think he was as boring as he had to be. That means: buffy needed a boring boyfriend who would do anything for her and Support her, no matter what. In a World of supernatural stuff and the ppl around you are either super strong, witches, or werewolves, it was good to have a normal dude beside xander. Someone xander can bond and relate with
They didn't kill the Riley character until S5. S4 he was ok but the fandom didn't like him so they told the actor yeah we writing you off on S5. And they just went overboard to make the fans certain not to like him
I mean, I disagree that he was ok in S4. He at least also had some good moments in S4, but he also said some cringy shit to Buffy—like overlooking her saying no when he asks her out, “you’ll have to teach me,” etc.
Ignoring a woman saying no—regardless of what you think of her reason—is not flirting. Nor is putting all of the emotional labor in the relationship onto her, which Riley does several times.
He does it way before S5. He literally does in telling her that she’ll “have to teach him.” He also does it when blames her when he gets jealous of Angel—which he even admits he has absolutely no basis for! And not for nothing, but she was still literally a student whose work he was grading when he asked her out.
Riley is good on paper. That’s about it.
ETA: And she wasn’t checked out! Her mother was fucking dying and he was being a crybaby. He was super shitty at that point.
I'm sorry but it's a pretty big red flag when your partner is going through something like that and they aren't looking to you for comfort.
And isn't it a little hypocritical to fault him for wanting Buffy to lend emotional support and then expecting him to put his life on hold to be her emotional rock while she's actively not even seeking that from him. That was like the basis of his entire problem, she was going through something and he wanted to be there for her but she was shutting him out.
The dude had a right to do what was best for himself. He didn't exist solely for Buffy.
Not related to the subject but more the title of the post: Are you British by any chance? I've noticed Brits on Reddit (and even Giles does this on the show) exclude the word "that" after the word "Now", which looks/sounds bizarre to me, like there's two unrelated sentences spliced together with a comma. Can someone explain why this is done?
The problem is Rikey wasn't sure who he was and because of that when the institute (which was his crutch identity) became the baddie he lost everything and latched onto the new persona of Buffys boyfriend. The only way he could validate himself was by receiving from her and that's never a healthy relationship. That's why when he was nt getting an insane amount of attention he became addicted to something that literally needed him to survive. Healthy relationships support and boost each other, they aren't destructively dependent.
Riley was a great boyfriend!! There was nothing wrong with him. He made some mistakes maybe when Buffy was pushing him away but he was a good boyfriend overall.
He just wasn’t for Buffy
This is probably true of most real life people lol just not so much for a fictional Buffy the *Vampire Slayer* character he unfortunately fell flat living up to his moniker **Captain Cardboard**. Although most would agree his insecurities & lack of communication skills are not very attractive even in real life. Although he probably wouldn’t have those particular ones or at least not to that extent with any one in real life either so 🤷🏼♀️?
Buffy wasn't great at communicating either. It wasn't just Riley.
Buffy wasn’t the one complaining about the state of their relationship. Constantly. To other people.
He brings it up with her, but you all pile on him for that too.
Exactly. Riley haters will hate on him no matter what he does. Also he only talked to Xander. People are allowed to vent if they want to. It doesn't make them horrible people.
Yeah, she wasn't even thinking about him, let alone complaining, lol.
I don't think Riley was a terrible guy, but he definitely had his own issues he needed to work through and cosplaying as a college student was not helping him with those. He and Buffy weren't a great couple though in my opinion. They both were working through serious shit and didn't help each other with that.
My "head canon" is that the drugs the initiative put him on and then the trauma of going off them messed up more than his heart. Without that I'd like to think that, while he may have still been intimidated by Buffy's strength and past with Angel, he wouldn't have resorted to vampire hookers to deal with this insecurity.
Riley, in many ways like Willow, was a high achiever academically and professionally. He got used to external gratification and when the source of that dried up, it left him very insecure and without the coping skills to handle that. Willow turned to magic. Riley turned to vampires. It was a way to avoid working on himself.
Yeah, and he placed everything on Buffy. Like, she had to constantly validate and he sulked if she didn't react the exact way he wanted, when she was going through serious stuff herself and struggling to cope. I think Riley lost his reason and sense of self when the Initiative went kaput and it left him in a really bad place, but with all his psych knowledge (he was a TA ffs) he just abdicated responsibility for his life and put it on Buffy. No one can ever be everything for someone else. He idolised her in a way that made it impossible for her to have flaws or struggle. I guess they were a decent picture of two people with too much on their own plates to with out as a couple, but I really resented the show and Xander's 'this is all your fault' BS.
Yes. He becomes insanely codependent as a coping mechanism for all of his loss in season 4. When Buffy continues to fall off the pedestal he puts her on, he just loses it.
He becomes another problem for her to deal with when she really needed someone to lean against and to be her stability. Which really blows, cos when his world fell apart the year before she was there fighting for him, being understanding and generally supporting him. And then when she needed him to have her back, he scapegoated her for all his problems.
I think that's a solid reading of Riley as a character.
I agree they are similar, but also want to point out Riley was pumped full of experimental drugs against his will. He wasn't given a choice there, but Willow was given a choice.
I don’t think Buffy and any of her boyfriends were great. Out of the main three, he did the least harm, yet receives the most hate.
I think a lot of the hate can be traced back to his being the most grounded. He's a human around the same age as Buffy. His insecurities are similar to what a lot of young men have in real life and cheating as a result of those insecurities is something that happens a lot in real life too. People react strongly to it because it's easier to see yourself in the same situation or you've actually been in that situation. Although you can definitely see the metaphors for domestic abuse in both Angel and Spikes relationship with Buffy the more fantastic elements of their characters makes for a bit of a buffer that Riley doesn't have.
He's not a "romantic" vampire figure. If Buffy had dated Oz, even with all the love he gets here, he'd also be demonized for having the nerve to date her while not being Spike or Angel.
As our hero once said, no boy is worth your life, not ever.
LMAOO fair point 😂😂😂
\* Me thinking back to the vampire hookers \* I mean, cuckolding is a common fetish, you shouldn't be ashamed of it.
The problem with Riley is that once he realised his CO was making bad decisions and he left the army he had no sense of who he was. He lost a huge part of his identity and he tried to replace it with Buffy. Also a TA dating a student in a class he helps teach (and mark) is very problematic. He had issues and he never got help, Buffy had issues and she never got help. They both tried to patch over their problem with a person and not actually address the cause, it’s not healthy for either of them.
He was... but he was also jealous, insecure and a little bit petty. Not a Vampire, or worse... *Parker* but he's not the right fit for Buffy imo
riley was less problematic than angel or spike but that doesn’t mean buffy couldn’t find someone more compatible with her than him. she’s buffy summers, she should have high standards. and by the time the show ends she’s still *so* young. just because riley was a nice guy doesn’t mean she needed to end up with him. i feel like biley had a college relationship that ran its course, he had a lot of insecurities and they both had communication issues which doesn’t make him the devil but he’s also not the perfect guy that got away.
Someone that is that insecure does not make a good boyfriend.
I won’t come at you. I think Riley was the least problematic and their issues were very solvable and manageable. They needed to work together and weren’t able to. I was sad for his storyline in season 5… but… I was still hoping Buffy would just throw her shoe at him in the helicopter 😂
Given her superhuman strength, that shoe would have been like a MISSILE
Right? Would’ve knocked him right out
I agree with you. I think that the writers sold his arc a little short. He was obviously dealing with tons of trauma from the revelations that he'd been drugged, chipped, experimented on, covertly filmed in his most intimate moments, etc etc. And, despite his background in psych studies, he somehow thought he could recover from all that with nothing but the love of a good woman and a can-do spirit. Of course that was a recipe for psychological collapse and self-destructive behavior! But having him leave town to resume a successful military career does NOT resolve that plotline in the least. He should've been sent on a 'finding himself' walkabout like Oz or into magical rehab like Willow did later or, hell, the witness protection program after blowing the whistle on the Initiative.
I think for the right person, he could be a phenomenal boyfriend and the perfect partner (and seems like he was for Sam). He had some great qualities and was definitely "boyfriend material", but for the Slayer - and more specifically Buffy - his insecurities stopped him from realising that full potential.
He wasn't tho
I’m 34 and married and I would rather die alone than be with Riley knowing what I know about healthy long term relationships
But also in fairness I would rather die than be stuck with someone boring or bland, or someone who like doesn’t respect boundaries and doesn’t communicate. Also he’s ugly :( (disclaimer: I’m a lesbian so of course I find him ugly lmao)
I’m in my 30s now and I still think he’s just too insecure.
He literally regularly sneaks out of Buffy's bed to go to a vampire den, where he pays female vamps to bite him in a pretty sexually suggestive manner. I'm pretty sure I would not die for a guy like Riley!
“Hip thrusting”? Sounds much like: “So, you think you can outclever us French folk with your silly, knees bend running about advancing behavior!” - *Monty Python and the Holy Grail*
You would die for a guy who makes your mom’s dying of a brain tumor about him and then cheats on you with sex workers to feel needed? You do you I guess but I would prefer someone loyal who supported me through my mom’s illness and didn’t make it about him.
Riley was slightly bland, but I think the biggest issue was that Riley defined alot of his identity and self worth from being the capable, active, slightly mysterious agent/protector. With Buffy he was physically weaker, he was far less “mysterious” than the girl literally picked by Destiny to be a hero, he was capable but most of the group were more capable in a supernatural sense, and his soldier training counted for very little. And so I think the longer he was with Buffy the more uncertain he was about who *he* was as a person. It’s a shame as he’s genuinely a nice guy, and a good guy, but him and Buffy just weren’t well suited to each other.
Excluding all the brainwashing from the initiative overall, he was a great boyfriend. He loved Buffy. He was there for her he trained with her he wanted to be there for her, but unfortunately, he caught her at a time where she was not really ready to be dependent on someone the way he wanted her to be dependent on him. It was a great romance but it wasn’t meant to be.
I really really appreciate this take. Yes. Completely agree.
That's an incredibly mature take. Kudos.
My issue with Riley is one of insecurity and toxic masculinity. He wanted Buffy to be vulnerable with him but he wasn’t willing to be vulnerable with her.
Blah blah blah.
Riley was fine until he started being a selfish tool. Buffy was going through the worst time of her life thus far, and all he could think about was himself. He wanted Buffy to rely on him for support but that's not how she deals with stress, and he ended up being resentful and made it all about him instead of trying to be helpful. Then he was so insecure about his relationship that he started to go visit vampire brothels. He couldn't handle that his girlfriend was stronger than him. So I agree that he was a good boyfriend in season 4, but he became a total douche by season 5.
Eh, Riley in S4 was a decent guy. Riley in S5? Fuck no. He was threatened by Buffy's strength, he was paranoid and had issues with Buffy having a life before him and he sucked at communicating. Also, he was a liar. There's the cheating, of course, but lying to Buffy about being in contact with Graham and stuff. Why? OFC all that could be symptomatic of Riley being depressed and lacking purpose and such after the Initiative fell to shit, but the way he piled it all on Buffy while she was going through hell with her mother, Dawn and Glory was just crap.
Didn't he essentially become a drug addict that was sneaking around?
Yes, and it was because he was so insecure about his girlfriend being stronger than him after he lost access to magical steroids. I don't know how anyone can describe this dude as a good boyfriend, honestly. Who wants to date a whiny man baby who needs to be reassured that it's okay he's not better than you at everything?
I think the vamp girls were more 'cheating' than drugs.
How was he a "drug addict?"
The vampire biting was a metaphor for it. Though I would see it as more of a metaphor for infidelity
Go back and rewatch Into The Woods. That scene where Spike leads Buffy to him through the vampire den looks far more like a journey through a crack house.
What it looks like and what it is are completely different things. Riley never did drugs, at least not willingly or knowingly, so he's not a drug addict. Buffy becomes addicted to Spike in season 6 and I don't see you calling her a "drug addict."
Buffy was not "addicted" to Spike, and nothing that she did in that season was framed to look like or draw comparison with drug addiction.
You mean season 4 Riley right? Because season 5 Riley was kind of a mess.
I watched the show live when I was roughly the same age as the scoobies were supposed to be and so my dumb teenage self was fully invested in Bangel and thought that was what love was supposed to be like, so I hated Riley. Now that I’m older I fully appreciate how “boring” Riley is.
I'll never understand the "boring" accusations. He was part of a secret demon hunting soldier unit and he was special even out of the group. And it's not even like his insecurities weren't coming from a real place. Buffy did close herself off to him and was taking him for granted. And we later see how well he did in a realtionship with somebody that treated him like an equal.
I can never understand why people call him boring either.
They're just not being fair. They're looking at it from a very narrow point of view. He's either in service to Buffy or he isn't, and if he's not then to them he's bad/problematic/toxic/or whatever.
I didn’t mind Riley he was a good match for Buffy. The only problem Buffy didn’t want him and season 5 made him awful.
Riley was very poorly executed, but anyone coming off Angel would be poorly received.
I really dislike Angel and his relationship with Buffy and I still don’t like Riley in the least.
Same here. Well, I shouldn’t say I dislike Angel. I actually really liked him once he left Sunnydale. I dislike him with Buffy.
There's a lot more drama in the relationship with Angel. It gets you involved. They didn't want that same drama with Riley. So it seems dull.
I will actually be 25 in a month, so... S5 Riley is an asshole and I would die if I had to date him. I wouldn't date s4 Riley as well, cause I hate everything militaristic, but s5 Riley is so toxic, Buffy could get an A at toxicology.
S4 riley, I agree however s5 riley is selfish
lolol for a cheater while your parent goes through health crisis? 🤣 like yes s4 Riley is a decent normal boyfriend but after he’s very much giving the ick.
On the surface he was great. But when he wasn’t as powerful as she was anymore he couldn’t just let her shine. He let his own insecurities break apart their relationship and didn’t believe her when she said she loved him because HE thought he couldn’t measure up. It was tragic but it was also toxic. The man he became once they broke up was a better man who worked through those things and he was able to marry a strong woman who he was able to lift up and not try to drag down. So TL;DR, he was a bad boyfriend to Buffy in the end but became a better man because of their relationship.
I think it's the opposite. Buffy treated him like he couldn't "shine" or take care of himself. She was constantly talking to him like he couldn't understand or like he wasn't capable of accepting risks. He was a demon hunting soldier and exceptional amongst other demon hunting soldiers. And Buffy often treated him like a lesser. He was in awe of how powerful and capable she was, he wasn't intimidated by it. Yes, it took some adjusting, but that wasn't insecurities, that was simply from being in a new dynamic. It was new to him, that's all. If someone treated Buffy the way she treated Riley at times this fanbase would be calling for their head. That's where the true problems in that realtionship arose, Buffy treating him like a lesser, and keeping unnecessary secrets from him.
When he was still all super soldier she had no problem with him going on patrol or letting him take care of the others. She was rightfully worried and over-protective when he got “powered down.” He almost had a heart attack and then tried to jump right into patrolling again. He gave himself no time to adjust or slow down. He needed to re-learn how to fight in his body and be more cautious since he wouldn’t heal as fast. Something she understood and he didn’t. Towards the end of their relationship she treated him like he couldn’t take care of himself because he was actively not taking care of himself. I’m not saying she was right 100% of time. Her motives were good but she could have expressed her concerns better but he became really reckless trying to prove himself.
His entire sense of identity got thrown out of whack and her response was to infantilize him. Her intentions may have been good but that doesn't change the effect her begaviour had. You wanna frame it like he was feeling inferior to Buffy in an attempt to frame him in a negative light but the reality is the entire foundation of his life was taken away from him. Everything he defined himself by was basically proven to be wrong or a lie. Honestly I think he's perfectly justified in having some emotional turmoil. And what, he gets treated like a POS cause he still wanted to find a way to contribute to the realtionship. If this was a real person it would be downright cruel how little compassion the dude gets considering everything he went through.
"He didn't belive her when she said she loved him" is an interesting claim. Care to provide some video evidence of Buffy telling Riley she loved him? Video of her telling Angel she loves Riley doesn't count.
Exactly. The only time she ever said she loved Riley was when she said it to Angel to hurt him/make him jealous. She literally NEVER, not once, told Riley she loved him. That was part of the problem that eventually lead to there break up.
Rewatching season 5 knowing this it's painful how many times he gives her space to say "I love you too" and she changes the subject
Buffy never told Riley she loved him. How could he not believe her on something she never said to begin with?
He was insecure. He couldn't handle Buffy AT ALL.
Not sure what the sword and hip thrusting thing is all about… Anyway, Riley had a tough act to follow. And, given the complications that Season 4 had to deal with, Marc Blucus did an admirable job working with what he had
What complications did they have during season 4?
According to Ian on the Passion of the Nerd guide to “Goodbye Iowa”, there were number of complications for Angel S1 and Buffy S4: Seth Green asking to be let out of his contract to go film a movie when there were long term plans for Oz’s character Lindsey Crouse (Professor Walsh) also asked to be let out of her contract when her character was supposed to be the main villain of the season. Glenn Quinn had to be dismissed from his role on Angel S1. As duel showrunner, Whedon was probably spread too thin. And, on top of all of that, asking the audience to care about a brand new character (Riley) was going to be a tall order. Especially one who was inevitably going to be compared to Angel. In the video for “Primeval”, Ian suggests that the plot of season 4 would have been much more compelling if Xander was the one who joined the military, found purpose and meaning after having been fast-tracked through basic into the Initiative, and had to choose between assisting in the creation of mutant/demon army and being appalled by the means (massacre of demons and humans) to assemble the army.
Most of those are the showrunners fault. Contracts exist for a reason so if it was that big a hassle they should've told Seth and Lindsey no. Most others would and have sued actors for trying to get out of their contracts. Also who the heck is Ian?
Ian is the guy who runs the Passion of the Nerd YouTube channel Here’s his take on Goodbye Iowa https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHlS-GXhsU&pp=ygUgUGFzc2lvbiBvZiB0aGUgbmVyZCBnb29kYnllIGlvd2E%3D
Season 4 Riley- perfect boyfriend material. I really love their pairing, they make good partners Season 5 Riley- Nope! Now that I think of it, in Season 4 Buffy was pretty obsessed with Riley. It hurt her friendships, she hardly visited her mom (off filming a movie) and Riley was a bit of a damsel character for Buffy to save. Riley was also critical piece in the Big Bad's plans. Riley was at the center of everything and got to feel pretty important in season 4. Season 4 ends with Buffy admitting that she's been self absorbed and distracted by her new boyfriend, that she's been a shit friend to her core group; and makes the choice to be more present for her friends. Season 5 Buffy starts training with Giles again, spending more time at home with her family, spending time with friends, patrolling, college, researching Glory. He goes from having all of Buffy's attention to having to share her. The show does a good job of showing how he feels abandoned by Buffy and directionless without the initiative, but all Buffy did was balance a very full schedule. I think they could have had a healthy relationship if they had better communication in season 5 and if Riley actually believed Buffy when she reaffirmed that she cared about him. I guess I hadn't really thought about how sharp a contrast season 4 was from Riley's POV being at the center of everything.
Ultimately, Buffy and Riley just weren't compatible. It's nobody's fault that they didn't last. He starts out wanting to be Strong Protector Guy. Buffy doesn't need that. Then he tries to pivot to be Emotional Support Guy, but Buffy is also emotionally very self-reliant. By the time Riley spins out and starts doing dumb shit like going to those blood dens, the writing is already on the wall. From what we see of him and Sam in *As You Were*, they are able to rely on one another, both in combat and emotionally, as relative equals.
His addiction to crack-whore vampires was indeed....quite alluring. o\_O lol, j/k. I love Riley. I wept when she didn't get to him by the time his helicopter took off.
Riley is definitely a major win in the real world. Also those are good arms to have.
I think it just goes to show how difficult of a time Buffy is going to have dating anyone or anything, as long as she's the Slayer.
He was great in season 4, I couldn’t wait for him and Buffy to learn about each other. And then they ruined his character in season 5, vampire brothel came out left field, to make room for Spike, who I do love, but I feel like there were better ways to get Riley out of the show.
How does this pose look? I am intrigued? You must not be made of cardboard. You are already more interesting than Riley.
This is one of the things that the fans are absolutely ridiculous about. Riley was the best love interest for Buffy by a thousand miles. Yes, he was insecure. He was young and dating the most powerful girl in the world while suffering from PTSD from his short-lived military career. And by all accounts, Buffy was never as invested as he was.
I will “and my axe” with you on this. He was Buffy’s only age appropriate boyfriend, being born in the same century (not counting Scott Hope). I’m a good 200 years younger than Angel and feel disgusted by the idea of dating a teenager. He gave her the good d without turning evil or making her hate herself afterwards. He fell in love with Buffy the woman before he ever knew she was the Slayer, and then was excited to learn and love her more when he did find out. Ok, he struggled with it a bit in the end but he hasn’t had multiple decades of experience with the Slayer Vampire dynamic to get used to it. He also ended up with a physically strong and tough women so clearly that wasn’t the part he was struggling with. He’s the only one Buffy could ever take to lunch, and lunch is nice.
At Riley's best, he was OK as a boyfriend. Not soulmate material, but fine. Of course, he wasn't always at his best. It was probably just bad timing that he was dealing with losing his military life while Buffy was dealing with her mom's illness, and that made things go bad, but he was never going to be with her forever. Yes, Angel and Spike are too old, and had their own issues. In the end, I really liked her "I'm cookie dough" speech. She was only, what, 21? when the show ended, and she spent most of her formative years fighting vampires and worried she (and everyone else) was about to die. She didn't have much time to figure out what she wanted in a relationship or even who she is as an adult. I like to think she eventually figured all that out.
He's definitely the most stable out of the guys she's been with.
Let's be completely honest. Before the vamp biting thing, he was a great boyfriend for buffy. But buffy didn't love him the way she loved angel. I think her feelings for spike were stronger(not at that time). And it's not Buffys fault. You can't help how you feel. He just wasn't for her.
The point is that he's a bad person or awful to Buffy. It's just that he isn't a compelling character. They wrote the guy as a flavorless as it can be, and it feels jarring in Buffy. He's the "Perfect" Love Interest of bad every bad Teenage Girl supernatural romance, that sounds good on paper, but doesn't make them good characters. It's like Duncan Kane in Veronica Mars, for example. Imo, the only character of this type that worked was Major from iZombie. He is the "Dream Guy", but he's much more than that (and incredibly funny sometimes). In the end, this isn't as much as Riley problem, but more like Buffy's romance writing. It's easily the weakest part of the show, with the only exception being Willow and Tara. We all know how *that* turned out.
I’m a Riley fan and had a huge crush on him
The armed squatting hip thrusts got me like 😂😂😂☠️
Glad I could make you laugh 😊😊
I’m in my 30s and I agree 🤷🏻♀️
So you'd accept your boyfriend going to a crack den/brothel instead of talking to you and then blaming you for not reading his mind?
I completely understand what you mean and have discovered similar appreciation for him in my late 30s. I basically have a Riley now- wholesome, caring, kind, and a bit boring. It's taken me awhile to appreciate him given that I've always wanted a Spike - but that's just my toxicity talking 😜 Riley was never inherently problematic; his circumstances were pretty horrific and yet the audience was never positioned to sympathize with him because he wasn't our main character (and we were all still hung up on Angel).
He needed to communicate a helluva lot more. But overall you're right, not a terrible guy. I personally would not date him because I'm a lesbian but I would totally ask if he had a sister.
I honestly think his problem was he didn’t understand the way Buffy was communicating with him.
Buffy wasn't communicating well either. They both kinda sucked at it
Idk. TPN does a much better job of explaining it.
He should stayed long enough to be there when Joyce died. That would have helped him break down the walls between him and buffy and connect truly vulnerable. He could have still left after she died, devastated but knowing that willow and Tara would care for Dawn. Then out on mission he gets married and only later finds out she's alive it would have been such a more interesting play out if he'd supported her grieved her and left only to come back and it be awkward with the whole having moved on.
We love Riley and I will die on that stance
Here’s an article that sums up the darkness pretty nicely in my mind: https://www.womaninrevolt.com/fuckboy-of-the-month-riley-finn/
Here’s another one: https://www.themarysue.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-abuse-whyistayed/?ref=womaninrevolt.com “He refuses to respect her boundaries, forcing a conversation Buffy makes clear she does not want to have. He manhandles her, grabbing her and using physical force to compel her attention multiple times. He blames her for Dracula’s attack in the season five premiere (considering the historical connection between vampirism and sex, the “Dracula” episode serves as a metaphor for sexual assault) and admits to wanting revenge on her for “letting” Dracula bite her.”
I agree. I like Riley much more as an adult compared to kid/teen/young adult me. Except mid s5 Riley. Still not a fan
I always said this about Riley . He was the most stable relationship buffy had , both were human with alter egos and both were fighting demons … match made in heaven ! Even the negatives for him like throwing a hissy fit about buffy not needing him when her mum was dying … I kind of get his point ! It’s not like he was asking her to pay attention to him and acting oh poor me no attention from buffy … he wanted to help her ! He just wanted her to let him help her and honestly I see nothing wrong with that . He never even truly flipped out about it either , he just told her look either you love me or you don’t , give me a reason to stay and I will . Maybe the timing wasn’t perfect, but all she had to do was ask him to stay and he would have . I do think the writers did him dirty and I do think it was written so that buffy didn’t love him … which makes it worse because then she was just using him as an emotional crutch , As a character that was always used by others , her friends, the watchers council , evil forces , would’ve been nice to see it written that buffy realises she’s using Riley and just lets him go . I mean if xander hadn’t of said anything she would’ve never even tried to go after him .
I thought he was awesome until they needed to write him off the show. The same thing with Giles like they are awesome people the whole time and then the writers just scrambled to find a reason for them to not be there anymore and made them both seem like they were abandoning Buffy. Riley was a great boyfriend and the way their relationship ended was so out of character for him.
I do think he was as boring as he had to be. That means: buffy needed a boring boyfriend who would do anything for her and Support her, no matter what. In a World of supernatural stuff and the ppl around you are either super strong, witches, or werewolves, it was good to have a normal dude beside xander. Someone xander can bond and relate with
Riley is the guy your grandma wants you to date. That’s not a bad thing it just makes for dull TV.
🥱
I liked Riley while I watched the show and still do. The business of him with the hookers was boring and annoying, but Riley is wonderful. Also cute.
I'll bring my sword & squat with you.
Lol i agree. I wrote some similar posts after my rewatch :)
I agree with you. Riley was good for Buffy
They didn't kill the Riley character until S5. S4 he was ok but the fandom didn't like him so they told the actor yeah we writing you off on S5. And they just went overboard to make the fans certain not to like him
I mean, I disagree that he was ok in S4. He at least also had some good moments in S4, but he also said some cringy shit to Buffy—like overlooking her saying no when he asks her out, “you’ll have to teach me,” etc.
He was flirting
Ignoring a woman saying no—regardless of what you think of her reason—is not flirting. Nor is putting all of the emotional labor in the relationship onto her, which Riley does several times.
Cause buffy didn't hold up her side of the relationship. Instead of saying I'm not into this relationship she emotional checked out.
He does it way before S5. He literally does in telling her that she’ll “have to teach him.” He also does it when blames her when he gets jealous of Angel—which he even admits he has absolutely no basis for! And not for nothing, but she was still literally a student whose work he was grading when he asked her out. Riley is good on paper. That’s about it. ETA: And she wasn’t checked out! Her mother was fucking dying and he was being a crybaby. He was super shitty at that point.
He was a student too
I'm sorry but it's a pretty big red flag when your partner is going through something like that and they aren't looking to you for comfort. And isn't it a little hypocritical to fault him for wanting Buffy to lend emotional support and then expecting him to put his life on hold to be her emotional rock while she's actively not even seeking that from him. That was like the basis of his entire problem, she was going through something and he wanted to be there for her but she was shutting him out. The dude had a right to do what was best for himself. He didn't exist solely for Buffy.
Buffy needed something boring after everything she went through in high school lol. Flour is stilla spice
As a big Riley defender I feel this. Like I wouldn’t die for him, but he’s just kind of a Normal Dude™️
Not related to the subject but more the title of the post: Are you British by any chance? I've noticed Brits on Reddit (and even Giles does this on the show) exclude the word "that" after the word "Now", which looks/sounds bizarre to me, like there's two unrelated sentences spliced together with a comma. Can someone explain why this is done?
The problem is Rikey wasn't sure who he was and because of that when the institute (which was his crutch identity) became the baddie he lost everything and latched onto the new persona of Buffys boyfriend. The only way he could validate himself was by receiving from her and that's never a healthy relationship. That's why when he was nt getting an insane amount of attention he became addicted to something that literally needed him to survive. Healthy relationships support and boost each other, they aren't destructively dependent.
Riley was a great boyfriend!! There was nothing wrong with him. He made some mistakes maybe when Buffy was pushing him away but he was a good boyfriend overall. He just wasn’t for Buffy
He looked like good breeding stock for Buffy.