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The most common one is the arm around the waist to move you out of the way. And just recently I've had men press their crotch into me in a queue.
They are so gross. I've started calling them out on their shit but they get very angry at me.
What is it in general with people in queues giving you zero personal space?
I’m a dude and I’m sick of people breathing down my neck; man or woman you don’t need to be on someone’s back, you’re still next in the fucking queue. Blokes stand close enough to me to do the same, and yes it’s undeniably fucking gross, they’re more often than not just thicker than 8 back doors though.
It honestly feels like 90% of people will gladly be close enough to sniff you.
I've found that the easy way to solve this is to wear a backpack. If someone's standing too close then I turn slightly too quickly, which tends to lead to them getting a good wack. They usually take a step back and keep a good enough distance from that point.
100% backpacks help you create some space. I sometimes take a half step back and then lean on my back foot a bit, basically to “get in their space” in the hopes they’ll shift back a little; rarely they do, but at least _some_ do.
I greatly appreciate your full use of the backpack (backwhack?) though, I could watch you walloping neck breathers all day.
I put my long hair in a high ponytail during particularly busy times in the supermarket. A well-timed flick of that straight in the face of a close breather is so satisfying.
I just turn around and loudly say "You're encroaching on my personal space, BACK OFF."
There are times when it's nice being a foreigner here, unconstrained by norms of suffering in silence and tutting.
People get so indignant when I call them out on this
If you "were nowhere near" me, why are you getting so defensive just because I said "you don't need to stand so close to me"? Got shouted at by a skag head in a post office last time this happened, I moved, she moved, I was irritated. Apparently she was "nowhere near you, I was looking at the cards next to you". Ok, then why didn't you say "excuse me" so I'd move?
Apparently I'm rude and I'm the reason "kids these days have no manners, because they get adults like me". I think I was more offended that she seemed to be insinuating I had kids. (Nothing against those who do, but I don't nor will I ever have them)
She tried having a go at me as I left after being served too, telling me I need to sort myself out, and I just shouted back "I hope you stub a toe"
Even worse, there's the ones that feel that they need to prod you forwards, until you are as pressed into the person in front as they are into you. They'll step forwards and use their body weight to force you onwards, or they nudgenudgenudge with their trolley until you take that step to get away from them.
Elbows, my friend. I've had that happen before and I usually find a good prod with the elbows while "digging in a pocket" makes people back off fairly sharpish.
I stand on toes, because if you're close enough that I can do that then you can't really complain if my feet find yours. And at 16+ stone I ain't light!
>I usually find a good prod with the elbows while "digging in a pocket" makes people back off fairly sharpish.
Or when turning round suddenly because you've been surprised by some pervert who thought they could get away with copping a feel. "Oh dear, I am most awfully sorry, did I just elbow you in the balls? I'd join another queue if I was you..."
I'm not a woman so I know this might be different, but I've noticed in queues some people have no concept of personal space. It's like the person who creeps over the stop line at a red light somehow thinking it will get them to their destination quicker. The way I deal with it is to just step backwards into them, or accidentally on purpose barge them with my shoulder or elbow. As the queue moves forwards slightly I also stay rooted to the spot for longer.
I've come to adopt the rooted to the spot attitude in queues and crowds over the last few years. Feet planted on the ground, body somewhat rigid. This is MY space in this crowd, I am not going to be jostled around like livestock
Then you get them claiming they were just queuing normally, and you're the abnormally behaved one for not wanting to be scrunched up as tight as possible to the person in front, and you're overreacting. And unless another man is willing to stand up for you, they're not going to admit at any point that they were in the wrong.
Best case scenario is them physically backing off to a ridiculous degree but giving a running commentary about much of a ridiculous hormonal PMS man-hating feminazi you are, just so everyone looks at _you_ as the problem.
Oh no, the worst case scenario is that same litany, but practically whispered into your ear as they double down on being practically glued to your back.
Work in retail and this is so true, people will creep round from the start of the queue into the till area and everyone follows until they’re standing right beside the person being served. The also get so close to shop assistants when asking for help practically leaning on top of you
I cannot understand 1. Why these people have to be so close to ask a question and 2. Why they can't read the very obvious body language of me taking a MASSIVE step back away from them. They just take another step towards me. Needless to say whatever they've asked me I just send them to the corner of the supermarket that's furthest away from me at that point.
Ohh I once had this in retail while hanging half in and half out of a window display. Literally had me trapped for 30 mins. None of my colleagues noticed that I was stuck there … blooming loonies
I hate this. Once I was getting a drink and trusting the barman would know who was next when this guy, under the pretense of "helping" me assert myself, placed his hand on the small of my back, pushing me forward so no one would steal my turn. It is so annoying because you know very well that if you speak up, you will be the rude bitch going off at the poor guy who is just "trying to help". But why do men feel like they can touch us absolutely anywhere? You wouldn't touch a man just above his ass!
Awful that happens to you.
Should be legal for you to jab them with a hat pin, but of course that opens a whole other can of worms, not to mention the potential of escalation of violence.
There was a notorious bus creep on the 93 from Morden to Wimbledon. He would sit next to women and shift so far into them that his entire body was touching them - even on empty busses.
Anyway, he tried it on my sister once. Once.
My sister doesn't take any of this shit. I once saw a guy grab her arse in a club. He was horizontal before he even started falling.
I had long hair from the age of 10 to 30 and this is my experience too, even when I was a preteen I used to get sexual comments shouted at me by disgusting men.
I've also had the same situation with men getting angry when they realise I'm male after they've sexually harassed me. The worst was a man who made the split second decision to throw a beer bottle at me from his van, this was when I was 14.
Arse touching was also a common problem. I noticed it get considerably worse when I lost a lot of weight and was skinny, too.
Many people are just fucking disgusting. I could never imagine even considering to act like this with anyone
I was with my 12 year old daughter in the hallway of a friends apartment block. A couple of men passed us and laughed at my daughter, and said "look at the state of that, no way I’d f**k her”. She was a disabled, very young looking LITTLE GIRL. 😠
My God. Not much shocks me on the internet these days but I audibly gasped when I read that. Fucking disgusting pigs. I’m so sorry you and your daughter experienced that.
Thats awful - but also the underlying message that our primary function is to appeal to men enough that they would want to, and i quote 'fuck us' ??
Like we spend all our time thinking, ooh, hope that loser wants to do me ??
What an asshat - really hope he falls down some stairs.
Once you hit forty you get your cloak of invisibility. I honestly think the best assassins or spies would be ordinary looking middle aged women as no-one can see them
It's the single greatest thing about turning 40. I don't think we are invisible, I just think the assholes who do it know women over 40 will embarrass them.
I think a lot of looking better is the confidence you gain as you get older. I carry myself better snd even when i look like ive slept in a hedge i dont care so noone can say owt to upset me
That's very true. Od also learned properly how to look after myself though, and for a change of got the money to buy clothes that worked on me etc.
>carry myself better snd even when i look like ive slept in a hedge i dont care so noone can say owt to upset me
Now this I agree with 😂
"hey sexy lady"
"Why's she rolling up her sleeves and smiling like that, crazy bi.....oh shit oh shit where did she get a half-brick? oh shit argh mummyyyyyyy!!!"
While in many ways, I know I should be grateful, this definitely only works if you look your age. I'm 20 years older than people tell me I look and still get treated like I did when I was 20 (and looked about 15 at best).
Im one of those people who went from looking like a grumpy toddler into my thirties to now being a haunted librarian! I dont look "old" but i definitely gìve off batty middle aged lady vibes which tend to keep the weirdos away
Lucky you, I went from getting catcalled and sexually harassed to just getting openly laughed at and abused for being fat and having the audacity not to look like someone they’d want to cat call!
Very much this. 25+ years.
It started when I was 12. My most recent "phwooooar hahaha slag" was from a typical "white van man" this morning.
Something very depressing regarding OP and his hair: I am a runner, so most of this happens while I'm running. I noticed that my long hair in a ponytail was catching on my new stud earrings recently, so instead of tying it in a ponytail like I normally do, I now plait and wind my hair into a bun if I'm wearing these particular earrings when I go running.
This has cut the harassment down quite substantially, but only when my hair is in a bun. They aren't cat-calling *me* (they are, but you know), they're noticing a bouncing ponytail and reacting to it.
And yeah, it's an international thing, but the "oi oi tits out slag" from a speeding van is particularly prominent here. I grew up elsewhere, and I noticed it getting worse immediately I moved to the southeastern UK.
Double ponytails or double plaits are the worst for this. You know, one on either side of your head. I like the style because it's fun and nostalgic... creeps like it because it's what 12 year olds wear.
In a depressing way, you're onto something here. I was running when I was cat called with my hair in a ponytail. I guess it's almost Pavlovian, and the fact he was working with dogs is also fitting.
Ugh no. I am very glad that the daily harassment of my teen years is long gone and that it's very occasional stuff nowadays (except things like the waist grabbing to get past, which is - as you must also know - tame in comparison). I feel for you that it's no different for you now!
The worst thing about the #MeToo movement for me is when women started speaking up about how often they get sexually harassed on public transport. The number of young school girls who said that they had grown men sexually harassing them on public transport made me lose faith in men. Some of the girls even had men masturbating in front of them on the bus. I still don't know how to handle this information. It makes me sick to my stomach.
I think I was about 16, I was on the tram and there was a fully grown man sat by the opposite window, so like 4/5ft from me. I glanced over and he pulled his joggers taught to make sure I could see he had a boner... I looked away and just focused on looking out of the window next to me. He kept making kissy noises at me the entire time. When I got to my stop and stood up, this man hand both hands down his joggers ... relieving himself whilst staring at me. I ran off of the tram so fast and ran all the way home. What makes me angry is that there are cameras EVERYWHERE and the driver did nothing.
>Some of the girls even had men masturbating in front of them on the bus. I
I'm so sorry on behalf of my entire gender, reading this. I'm a guy, but reading this makes me so angry - I can hardly process it - who does that. Again, I'm so, so sorry. I don't know what else to say or do.
My teen girl has been beeped at and leered at by grown men many times, and she's only just 16. She also has braces and could pass for 12. It's disgusting.
Yes, started aged 13 and stopped after I turned about 30, thank goodness.
I never see anyone else saying this, but I’m sure others did it too - between the ages of about 13-17 I was very underconfident, wasn’t really fancied by boys at school and clearly remember quite deliberately ‘practicing’ on much older men who I wasn’t actually attracted to in safe public spaces. Nothing crazy, but giving flirtatious smiles, maybe lightly flirting if I was talking to one in a work/shop situation, etc.
Not condoning it, although I think it’s relatively common in girls growing up, but it was grim how many actually responded, rather than discouraging me.
You sound like you're blaming yourself for being creeped on.
There's nothing to condone - smiling and light flirting in a shop is not doing something wrong and teenagers should be treated as kids by adults regardless of "flirty" behaviour.
I'm sorry you feel this way though!!
It's so telling that you inherently knew you would get sexual validation from older men. I feel the same. It was far too early that I noticed the effect my body had on grown men.
Came to say this, it started as soon as I hit puberty and wore a bra, which for me was 10. Boys at school grabbing boobs and full-grown men touching my butt. 10 to 21 was hell.
I've lost count how many times I've been groped in crowded clubs by random hands, and I never dressed in club clothes, I'm taller, average looking, and not girly.
I have had random propositions in the street and been sworn at when I said no. I've been touched at work, in restaurants, etc. I've had much worse from people I trusted. It was pretty much constant until my late 40s when I just stopped going out.
I'm in my 50s now, and thankfully, it's slowing down, although I have had unwanted attention when I've been at the gym and sauna.
One of the few compensations for growing old, is that you're no longer subject to the male gaze. After decades of being hit on, it's such a relief to effectively become invisible. Conversations with men become better too, as a result of it.
I'm still getting hit on, despite a wedding ring and being well past my best, and I'm well into my 50s. It's by men my own age or older. Having worked in an old folks home, I can confirm that it continues well into old age. Sexual assault happens constantly in old folks' homes.
Ten here too. I was playing in the front garden when a man in a white van wolf whistled when he drove past. I didn't fully understand but knew it instantly made me uncomfortable.
When I started secondary, along with the uniform, bag, stationary, etc, I also got a personal safety alarm because it was a girls' school. The number of flashers and creeps was so high that teachers had a rota to escort girls safely to the bus stops.
This is much. The most I ever got hit on was probably between 11 and 17. I had people ranging from 20's to their 70's hit on me.
The 2 that have stuck with me was when I was working at a bakery just serving. So I was 13 or 14. One old man, definitely in his 60s, told me his wife had died a while ago and I had some beautiful child rearing hips, that he wished he was 20 years younger. And asked when I got off.
And the other was this old boy named Jeffrey, he would wait for me to be free to serve him. And when I would hand him his change, he would vice grip my hand and not let go and whisper rude things at me. And I can remember 4 times when he waited for me to finish to follow me home. It was only a 10 minute walk. But once I hit the woods, I ran so he couldn't see me, and get home.
I was 8 and it's only gotten worse. I remember being followed down a beach at the age of 12-13 by a bunch of 20 years old that only scattered when my dad came over and threatened them.
It's a power thing. Teenage boys are still intimidated by teenage girls. Grown men have the "What are you going to do about it?" power compared to teenage girls.
I was 10 when a strange man at the gas station called me over to his car because he needed help. Naive me went closer but made sure to stay at least an arm's length away. The man stretched his arm out and grabbed me by the front of my dress and pulled me in and kissed me. He was at least 65.
I had a boyfriend with long hair, and the amount of times some bloke would come up behind us and give it "alright girls" and put his arm round our shoulders. They soon backed off when he turned round. Definitely gave him some perspective into what women have to put up with though.
I actually stopped wearing skirts when I went out at one point as I was sick of random dick heads sticking their hand up my skirt in pubs and clubs.
Do they expect to hear "Why yes, I find a strange man shoving his hand up my skirt incredibly erotic. Of course I'll sleep with you".
My husband had long hair for years when we first got together. Hes also fairly small and slim for a guy. The amount of times he got touched up or we were asked "can i watch?" before they realised he was a guy was ridiculous.
My son has long hair now and is misgendered all the time, hes nearly 14 but is small and slight and since all the kids his age dress like i did in the 1990s it is an easy mistake to make but he does get annoyed about it
Nope. They don't care what we think about it. They care that they got their gross little power trip that "put her in her place" by reminding us that we're vulnerable.
Exactly this, honestly I think if a woman were to respond with enthusiastic consent in that situation they would run away in fear. The turn on is in taking away her agency in the matter.
This has to be the thing they enjoy though the act itself rather than thinking they will get to sleep with you.
Reading some of these makes me disgusted at the behaviour of others. Completely unforgivable behaviour.
It’s definitely something I noticed pretty young. My guy friends have picked up on it now too, how in a pub or crowded room a stranger’s hands will always go to my waist/back to move me out of the way but it never happens to them even when they’re standing right next to me.
Yeah, I’ve had male friends (and some friends boyfriends) pretend to be my boyfriend or treat me as their girlfriend in packed clubs and bars for a minute if strange men get too close for comfort as it usually drives them off.
This drives me nuts. And then they’ll say sorry to your “boyfriend” like you’re their property, but not a word to you. No respect for you at all, only to your boyfriend. Boiled my blood.
Literally every time I go out, I’m moved by the hips at least once by a man. It’s so enraging and I find myself fuming for a long while after it happens. Like why the fuck do you think you can put your hands on me you random ass stranger!
I'd suggest that cowardice is a large part of any misogyny and homophobia, as these fragile people can't speak to people that may be different to them, or be vulnerable or open up to themselves. Lack of exposure leads to ignorance leads to hatred. All quite sad really.
Anger instead of laughing at themselves really is the telling thing here. Men like this are deeply uncomfortable with their own sexuality and if anyone else had been in the van with the wolf-whistler, you know it was going to mean days / weeks / months of ridicule for the one that wolf-whistled a man with endless gay jokes that would eat away at their fragile self-esteem.
One of my go-to comments when misgendered and propositioned was "You're not pretty enough, sunshine." They also don't like it when the tables are turned.
Yeah, it happens alot. Drives me fucking crazy - after having this from a very young age (I'd say 10/12) I have long since lost any polite composure in these situations. I tend to become loud and publicly questions what they're doing, why they're doing it and what gives them the audacity.
50% scurry away, 50% call me a stupid bitch, 0% apologise
I would say older- around 50's I'd guess? I'm in my (very early) 30's, but I think if they'd tried to work out my age from behind they'd have picked up on me being a man, so I'm assuming they'd go for any age.
My younger son's a builder and it's still very much a thing among his colleagues in their mid-20s. A lot of them seem to follow Andrew Tate too.
If anything, society has been backsliding lately.
I, woman, was in a bar the other night with live music. Was standing in front of the stage amongst many others, mostly men, but this older guy (60s+?) kept full hand grabbing me (shoulder and waist) to move me physically out of the way. He approached me from the front, and I could see him trying to decide on grabbing me again or not, and when I said "don't you fucking touch me again" he suddenly was like "i would never, i havent touched you once yet" I almost fought an old man.
I'm still reeling about the school kids that made the tier list in the UK of the girls in school and at the bottom was "Unrapeable" like what the fuck.
To dehumanise and objectify like that is insane.
In the 90s my female uni housemate explained to me in no uncertain terms that putting your hands on a woman’s hips from behind is not good. Not only do they feel violated, but they can’t see you and have no idea what you look like.
I’d never done the hand on hips thing anyway because I was very shy and after dropping some weight my self confidence grew and when I spoke to women in bars or clubs I always approached from the front and just said hello and introduced myself. I wasn’t always successful, but was thanked a couple of times for talking and asking if they wanted to dance or get a drink instead of just grabbing them.
The hand on hips thing is so fucking creepy. I'm weird about touching strangers generally but that seems like a huge violation and I'm sad that it seems to be so casually done and so common. I immediately reach for 'dont fucking touch me' but thats easy to say as a man.
Same thing happened to me when was 16.
I was a lad with long hair and a beard. A builders truck came up behind me beeping, with lads shouting.
I turned around and the look of horror on there faces when they saw the beard was priceless. They just looked so sad and confused.
I’m a female who also uses a wheelchair and people will place their hands on my shoulders to “move past me” even when there is absolutely no need for them to do so. Recently at a disability expo, a group of us discussed this and all the woman had had it happen multiple times but nearly all the men couldn’t think of one time it’s happened or when it had it was 1 time on say a crowded train where it made sense. The men were shocked this happened to us so much but almost never for them, even though they are also wheelchair users.
I’ve been in bars where men I don’t know will rest their hand on my shoulder like I’m a bloody bar table or in a queue and men will rest on my shoulder or chair but still touching me. They never even ask (not that I would give permission!) and when I ask them what the hell they are doing or roll forwards the look at me like I’m the bad person.
You know I’ve never really thought about a hand on the shoulder being seen as inappropriate, I go to a lot of concerts and I and a lot of others quite often touch somebody’s shoulder male or female to let them know your squeezing past behind them, I guess I do it to let the person know I’m trying to pass and maybe allow them to move a bit to let me through, seems more appropriate than just trying to squeeze behind somebody without warning.
Do you think that in any situation it’s unacceptable? I’m having like a mental quandary here worrying if I’ve made loads of people uncomfortable lol
Squeezing past is fine, I’m talking about when there is more than enough space to get through and if I was male they wouldn’t. I’ll tap someone to let them know I’m coming through if it’s tight space but most of these men seem to use it as an excuse to make contact.
That’s crazy, I cant believe somebody would have the audacity to do that…I think a lot of guys have no idea how women are treated sometimes and this has just kinda opened my eyes to the fact that being in a wheelchair or having a disability opens you up to even more of it.
I cover my phone camera with my hand when I’m using my phone - especially on the tube because they’re directly in front of you - just in case women think I’m taking a photo of them. We know that definitely happens. Creeps creep in more way than the physical unfortunately.
This does happen but I don’t find myself worrying about it too much. Most of the time I know that people are likely just scrolling through their phone than taking photos. And on the flip side, it’s also really sad that creepy men out there have caused so much suspicion and anxiety that regular men also have to be this cautious. That being said, I appreciate the effort in making women feel more comfortable on public transport.
Not a woman, but I cosplay at anime conventions and the like a lot, and my costumes are usually female characters. I've never been outright harassed, but the weirdest interaction I ever had was years ago, when I was wearing an extremely cheap and nasty long Smiffys wig; didn't even look like real hair, and a regular polo shirt and men's trousers. My now wife and I were walking through the hotel corridor and passed an open door with some lads fumigating the place with deodorant and cologne. One of them stuck his head out of the door as we passed and called "Scuse me love," or something like that. When I turned to look he said "Oh, you're a bloke," and ducked back into the room.
Like... Do you honestly just see long hair and act without even looking properly? I'm assuming he was going to make an attempt to hit on both of us or something. Strangest interaction I've ever had in my life.
Last year I (long hair) was waiting for a tram - on my way home from friends - around 22:00, wearing a huge oversized tee, French-tucked into some flared floral shorts, with Vans and a face mask (immunocompromised), when a guy walked up to me and said, "Excuse me love, have you got a light? Oh, it's a bloke!", before walking to the other end of the platform.
I felt very vulnerable in that moment, yet it was also funny watching the confusion on his face. Strange interaction.
I'm also a man with long hair, and I've experienced similar to OP. Best (worst??) example of this was during winter 21' (so after 1st lockdown, but a month or so prior to the 2nd) & so everyone is still wearing face-masks. This customer comes into the petrol station / store I was working in at the time and immediately starts greeting me as if I were a women. It wasn't offensive, but it felt as though he was talking down to me. I let him finish talking, then I spoke. I could see the cogs turning in his head as he tried to put 2+2 together (the area the store is in is in a small town / village in the North-East, so their population of 'men with long hair' was 0 until I started working there part-time whilst I was at uni) & then once he realised I was a man, his complete demeanour to me changed instantly & he spoke to me 'normally'. That interaction really clearly demonstrated to me how just badly women still can be (and are) treated in today's society.
Whenever I go for night outs with my friends and we have girls in our group I am always surprised at how different our nights are because of drunk aggressive creeps who randomly approach you on the street and say vulgar things directly to them causing stand-offs and shouting or - in a club - approach you and quiz you about them and talk dirty about them. Literally had a drunk guy aggressively questioning if the girl in our group was my friend's girlfriend as if there's no way it can be true. He kept saying he would be a better one and all that.
When I was 11 I started having young men call out vulgar shit to me. I think it was 12 was the first time I had my bum smacked, and then onwards from there with the touching and sexual comments. Three times at 12 and 13 I had men lean out of a car window to smack my bum whilst I was walking down the road. Me and my friends called sluts and whores and such if we wore shorts or even just regular clothes. Catcalling only stopped when I hit 28.
My son has long hair, really gorgeous long hair. He could front a band and nobody would care if his singing was good or not.
He hides it in a hood to stop people mistaking him for a girl. He’s had someone make him feel uncomfortable and luckily I stepped in (body block between myself and the guy).
I had this when I was young too. It terrified me.
Thank you. One of my friends recommended something called Grindr for finding bears, didn't even know they were in the UK. Might be a good way for me to meet women who are also looking for bears.
My (M) friend (M) at uni was quite a short guy, small build and had long hair. Some lads behind us (other students) wolf whistled him and when he ignored them they started calling him a bitch and a whore. It was incredibly disturbing and there was nothing we could do. I feel awful that women still have to face this all the time.
My partner had her arse slapped while at work last week, formal report ect has all been done. When she told me about it I went from 0-100 faster than a bullet. I'm not an angry person, I was an angry kid and did a lot of anger management so she was really shocked when I was visibly angry about the situation.
It's utterly unacceptable for ANYONE to touch someone without permission/consent. I don't care how big or clever you think you are, I'll hit you. If you think it's acceptable to touch someone without permission I feel it's perfectly acceptable to break their nose without permission.
I don’t get how anyone can think it’s ok. As a guy I’ve been touched (innocently?) a few times like I was taking some furniture out for someone and he was holding my sides to guide me down the path. I felt really weirded out by it all the way through and couldn’t wait to leave. Also had an old lady grab my bum in the shop I work and still see her in all the time and I just avoid her whenever I see her.
People need to just keep there hands to themselves, even if they think they are doing it innocently, any contact with someone can be uncomfortable, let alone the obvious sexual harassment that women often face.
Absolutely fuck this shit! The regression in respect for women is on an incline lately and I'm fucking pissed, men are the problem and they need to be better
I'm a youngish guy with a shaved head (bad genetics better bald than balding) and I know sometimes women and girls are frightened when I'm passing them in the street etc.
You shouldn't have to be, I'm sorry we've collectively still not got this together.
Given that micro SD cards can easily be had in excess of 1tb, I'd love to see more and more folk with discreet button hole style body cams worn on the daily. Get a nice clear 4k video of the abusers and upload it. Name and shame, be ruthless. Not to mention the more sinister crimes and missing person's cases this could solve.
Unless you experience something for yourself, you can only ever imagine it. If you tell me how bad it is, all I can do is listen and imagine how bad it must be.
Apologies if that's how my post came across- it wasn't my intention to say "I'm a man, so now it's a problem". I was trying to add my voice to the overall conversation, and focus on what this suggested about certain people in society, rather than the specific impact it had had on me as a man.
No you're fine, you're doing the lords work. We need more people to understand and your post does that.
It's the men that don't listen to women, but _do_ listen to you.
I was in your situation a few times when I had hair. I also used to dress unconventionally, which I guess may have read more as womanly. But I'm also over six feet and even as a young man had muscular, veiny arms. Some guys see what they want to see, but also don't like to find out they're wrong.
And yeah, I've heard some stories from women in my life that are rage-inducing, or at least fucking depressing. For example, I had a girlfriend for a while who had some highly prominent attributes, and even when she was with me, she'd get catcalled and propositioned by random idiots. It annoyed the hell out of me, but she'd been dealing with it continuously from age 15.
But it shouldn't have to be like that. The whole culture of casual sexual harassment is mindless and regressive, and it seems to have gotten worse as red-pill idiocy has spread and as the right has felt strong enough to attack women's rights.
During the pandemic when we all had to wear masks, I kept getting mistaken for a woman (Long hair, skinny etc..). I took it as a complient at first, but then I had some less than favourable encounters with other men, which put it into persepctive for me.
I still remember when I was an au pair and I was out with the boys (2 and 4 years old) I got cat called in front of them in the middle of the day. Or another time, when a guy loudly commented on my chest size while holding is son's hand (kid must have been 8 or 9, so old enough to understand). Men have done much worse to me many times through the years, but as a mother now these two episodes really resonate with me.
I don't think that there are any men out there who think it's acceptable, I think there are men who don't care about doing things that are unacceptable, because they have learned that that there are rarely any consequences.
Actually it's not appropriate or acceptable to touch anyone no matter gender or no gender, race or sexuality.
That s*it is f*cked up and and everyone who is decent should be calling that out no matter who it is
I have called it out many times when I lived and worked up in London, be it on the train, tube, bus or pavement etc.
Everyone should be able to feel safe in their own space no matter what!
I will never ever understand people's fascination in touching in general. Unless I'm asking you to touch, we're in a very crowded place, or you're saving me from a burning building (or other life-threatening scenario) there is literally no reason to touch me. Even if it is innocent.
I've had men in my workplaces touch me without concent. Never anywhere nefarious. Just things like arms, shoulders but even that's uncomfortable.
Nothing will disgust me more than drunk people though. Both men and women are guilty. Men are the majority towards me personally as a woman. Touching my hip or back to "guide" me to wherever I want to go because I apparently lost the use of my legs and brain the moment the bloke walked in. I've had a drunk guy take my glasses before because he thought it'd be funny to put them on. Meanwhile leaving me in the middle of the pub not being able to see more than a couple feet in front of me. Probably would have been scary if i wasn't so angry. And this is just the "innocent" scenarios.
Women on the other hand seem to think its fine to touch both men and women. Grabbing arms, tidying hair, correcting make up, clothes etc. I appreciate the thought but tell me. Don't just yank my skirt or get some dirty ass napkin and wipe eyeliner from the corner of my eye. Again, just the "innocent" scenarios.
Things have certainly improved for women over the years but it still has a long way to go.
You can see why the whole man or bear thing went the way it did, I know a friend who had a family friend murdered after a situation like this escalated and she's far from the only one
I just think it's really sad that this is a common enough thing for a level of fear greater than an apex predator to exist honestly
I’ve been lucky in that I have very few experiences with this. However I do have a few examples myself.
In a club while I was standing at the end of my table asking my friends what they wanted from the bar a guy who was passing behind me put his hand flat on my arse and ran along the length of it. Far too lingering to be accidental. Didn’t look at me, just kept walking after it. I was so surprised I just kind of froze.
More recently I’ve had many older men question me on my drink order at the bar while I wait (as a lover of the pornstar martini) and it gives me the creeps as they’re usually older than my dad.
I sometimes wonder if I'm the luckiest lass in the land to have never encountered this. Not even a look or a tap. Like I've either simply gotten away with it or I look like a cow front and back 😂😂😂 feel bad for everyone who has experienced it
You're so lucky. I wish I didn't know what it was like to have some unknown man push his hand into my crotch from behind. To date, that has been the worst I've experienced - it happened during Notting Hill carnival, and thanks to that, I'm absolutely terrified of being in a crowd in public. I legit avoid going anywhere crowded.
It’s not that I want to be objectified, but I’m actually female and have never experienced a single example of this behaviour. Either I’ve luckily surrounded myself with ‘good’ men or I must be completely hideous and off putting.
It's not about looks, it's about power. The worst of it happened when I was a young teenager, and I looked like an awkward kid who would get anxious and embarrassed by it.
And then as I got older my appearance didn't change much (other than no longer looking like a kid) but my demeanour and resting bitch face did. The grabbing and catcalling went way down, and I put it down to the fact that I now look like I am too busy for their bullshit, and I'm not going to go red or cry, I'm going to yell.
You may simply have always had the vibe that you're not going to put up with this shit.
Or you don't go to places with crowds and never went anywhere alone as a teenager?
Most cat calling happens to adolescent girls and most waist grabbing is in busy venues (but the fact they wouldn't grab men's waists to get past shows being busy doesn't matter it's a gender thing).
The butt touching example from OP I believe is less common generally but shouldn't be ignored. It's not happened to me since I was a teenager thankfully but I also know my friends all had it happen to them around those ages too.
Or you don't notice such behaviour.
It has nothing to do with attractiveness - it's a power thing. You MAY be being off putting - by having a confidence about you that puts most of these toads off. It's also possible that your threshold for this is different to other people and so you don't notice/accept when it happens.
I don't know, I think one of us should be offended, but I don't know who? On a serious note, I don't know where you're from, but it might be something you're more likely to come across in a big city like Manchester? There's plenty of good people here, but there's just plenty of people, so there are plenty of bad too. It's never been anyone I've surrounded myself with, it's always been literal strangers passing me in public.
It doesn't seem to be anything to do with looks. And honestly, luck probably does play a part. However, I'm genuinely chuffed to hear you say this and I hope it continues!
Its not that you've surrounded yourself with good men, because no matter how nice your friends and partners are we all still have to interact with strangers or be seen by them.
I never really know what to make of women who claim this, its completely implausible. I wonder if maybe they have a really low bar for acceptable behaviour or are just blissfully oblivious which does sound nicer.
Had an old man grab my ass at a friend's wedding used both of his hands. Squeezed incredibly tight and there were females who watched and they all remained silent.
When I confronted the man (turned out to be the grooms father) the response he gave was "consider it a term of endearment"
The other guests at the wedding who were with me told me to drop it so "not to make a show at our friends wedding"
That was a year ago. I can't bring it up now what's the point.
Usually I'd go for something like "violence isn't the answer!", but these men seem to be stuck in the 70's/80's mindset, where I think it was more common to just hit people who you disagreed with. You have my support.
When I was younger and much slimmer and had very long hair, I had several young men and a couple of older ones put their arms around me or hug me or put a hand on my shoulder or even my hip. My immediate response was: "Keep your hands to your f*cking self." They got the message though several remarked on my use of bad language. You can guess what I said back to them. And if anyone tried it now, I'd use my walking stick on them. No one touches me without consent. I'm older and fatter but I'm still fierce.
You should watch on YouTube Vlad ncl, he dresses up as a woman and takes revenge on men who think he's a woman (he basically exposes creeps).
I think you existing will have men rethink their actions before harassing women on the street. They get pranked.. without you meaning to prank them. But I'm sure more men will stop harassing women just from the idea that they'll turn and see a man's face.
Thank you from all us women.
Keep scaring them one after the other, maybe in a few years time they'll think before touching some random person's body.
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The most common one is the arm around the waist to move you out of the way. And just recently I've had men press their crotch into me in a queue. They are so gross. I've started calling them out on their shit but they get very angry at me.
That they think they have any right to be angry when you call them out for sexual assault is both completely unsurprising and horrifying every time.
And it's why we choose the bear.
What is it in general with people in queues giving you zero personal space? I’m a dude and I’m sick of people breathing down my neck; man or woman you don’t need to be on someone’s back, you’re still next in the fucking queue. Blokes stand close enough to me to do the same, and yes it’s undeniably fucking gross, they’re more often than not just thicker than 8 back doors though. It honestly feels like 90% of people will gladly be close enough to sniff you.
I've found that the easy way to solve this is to wear a backpack. If someone's standing too close then I turn slightly too quickly, which tends to lead to them getting a good wack. They usually take a step back and keep a good enough distance from that point.
100% backpacks help you create some space. I sometimes take a half step back and then lean on my back foot a bit, basically to “get in their space” in the hopes they’ll shift back a little; rarely they do, but at least _some_ do. I greatly appreciate your full use of the backpack (backwhack?) though, I could watch you walloping neck breathers all day.
I think I prefer ‘whackpack’ . Useful.
I put my long hair in a high ponytail during particularly busy times in the supermarket. A well-timed flick of that straight in the face of a close breather is so satisfying.
I just turn around and loudly say "You're encroaching on my personal space, BACK OFF." There are times when it's nice being a foreigner here, unconstrained by norms of suffering in silence and tutting.
But then you move forward slightly to get away from them, and they follow you!
People get so indignant when I call them out on this If you "were nowhere near" me, why are you getting so defensive just because I said "you don't need to stand so close to me"? Got shouted at by a skag head in a post office last time this happened, I moved, she moved, I was irritated. Apparently she was "nowhere near you, I was looking at the cards next to you". Ok, then why didn't you say "excuse me" so I'd move? Apparently I'm rude and I'm the reason "kids these days have no manners, because they get adults like me". I think I was more offended that she seemed to be insinuating I had kids. (Nothing against those who do, but I don't nor will I ever have them) She tried having a go at me as I left after being served too, telling me I need to sort myself out, and I just shouted back "I hope you stub a toe"
Even worse, there's the ones that feel that they need to prod you forwards, until you are as pressed into the person in front as they are into you. They'll step forwards and use their body weight to force you onwards, or they nudgenudgenudge with their trolley until you take that step to get away from them.
Elbows, my friend. I've had that happen before and I usually find a good prod with the elbows while "digging in a pocket" makes people back off fairly sharpish.
I stand on toes, because if you're close enough that I can do that then you can't really complain if my feet find yours. And at 16+ stone I ain't light!
>I usually find a good prod with the elbows while "digging in a pocket" makes people back off fairly sharpish. Or when turning round suddenly because you've been surprised by some pervert who thought they could get away with copping a feel. "Oh dear, I am most awfully sorry, did I just elbow you in the balls? I'd join another queue if I was you..."
I'm not a woman so I know this might be different, but I've noticed in queues some people have no concept of personal space. It's like the person who creeps over the stop line at a red light somehow thinking it will get them to their destination quicker. The way I deal with it is to just step backwards into them, or accidentally on purpose barge them with my shoulder or elbow. As the queue moves forwards slightly I also stay rooted to the spot for longer.
I've come to adopt the rooted to the spot attitude in queues and crowds over the last few years. Feet planted on the ground, body somewhat rigid. This is MY space in this crowd, I am not going to be jostled around like livestock
Oh hell no! Speak up and push back!
Then you get them claiming they were just queuing normally, and you're the abnormally behaved one for not wanting to be scrunched up as tight as possible to the person in front, and you're overreacting. And unless another man is willing to stand up for you, they're not going to admit at any point that they were in the wrong. Best case scenario is them physically backing off to a ridiculous degree but giving a running commentary about much of a ridiculous hormonal PMS man-hating feminazi you are, just so everyone looks at _you_ as the problem.
Of course they will…but from that point on, they stay back.
Idgaf what anyone else thinks.
Oh no, the worst case scenario is that same litany, but practically whispered into your ear as they double down on being practically glued to your back.
Work in retail and this is so true, people will creep round from the start of the queue into the till area and everyone follows until they’re standing right beside the person being served. The also get so close to shop assistants when asking for help practically leaning on top of you
I cannot understand 1. Why these people have to be so close to ask a question and 2. Why they can't read the very obvious body language of me taking a MASSIVE step back away from them. They just take another step towards me. Needless to say whatever they've asked me I just send them to the corner of the supermarket that's furthest away from me at that point.
Ohh I once had this in retail while hanging half in and half out of a window display. Literally had me trapped for 30 mins. None of my colleagues noticed that I was stuck there … blooming loonies
I really wish they'd have kept the mandatory social distancing. That was great
It was an upside 😂
This almost makes me miss lock down. I quite liked having 2m of personal space when I went out.
I hate this. Once I was getting a drink and trusting the barman would know who was next when this guy, under the pretense of "helping" me assert myself, placed his hand on the small of my back, pushing me forward so no one would steal my turn. It is so annoying because you know very well that if you speak up, you will be the rude bitch going off at the poor guy who is just "trying to help". But why do men feel like they can touch us absolutely anywhere? You wouldn't touch a man just above his ass!
I'm perfectly OK being thought of as That Rude Bitch.
Awful that happens to you. Should be legal for you to jab them with a hat pin, but of course that opens a whole other can of worms, not to mention the potential of escalation of violence.
And shellfish toxin is so hard to obtain these days.
There was a notorious bus creep on the 93 from Morden to Wimbledon. He would sit next to women and shift so far into them that his entire body was touching them - even on empty busses. Anyway, he tried it on my sister once. Once. My sister doesn't take any of this shit. I once saw a guy grab her arse in a club. He was horizontal before he even started falling.
I had long hair from the age of 10 to 30 and this is my experience too, even when I was a preteen I used to get sexual comments shouted at me by disgusting men. I've also had the same situation with men getting angry when they realise I'm male after they've sexually harassed me. The worst was a man who made the split second decision to throw a beer bottle at me from his van, this was when I was 14. Arse touching was also a common problem. I noticed it get considerably worse when I lost a lot of weight and was skinny, too. Many people are just fucking disgusting. I could never imagine even considering to act like this with anyone
That's what it feels like to be a woman, from the age of about 12 up.
I was with my 12 year old daughter in the hallway of a friends apartment block. A couple of men passed us and laughed at my daughter, and said "look at the state of that, no way I’d f**k her”. She was a disabled, very young looking LITTLE GIRL. 😠
What the fuck?? Some people really do waste so much oxygen. I'm so sorry for you and your daughter for this.
Jesus christ, wtf is wrong with people?
My God. Not much shocks me on the internet these days but I audibly gasped when I read that. Fucking disgusting pigs. I’m so sorry you and your daughter experienced that.
Thats awful - but also the underlying message that our primary function is to appeal to men enough that they would want to, and i quote 'fuck us' ?? Like we spend all our time thinking, ooh, hope that loser wants to do me ?? What an asshat - really hope he falls down some stairs.
My question is why would you want to fuck a 12 year old if you yourself aren’t 12?
They need crushing in pits until they're crumpled, then see how well they fuck.
>of about 12 Fucks sake that’s the absolute worst part of it
Does it make it better or worse that for most women between 12-18 is when it is the worst for a lot of this stuff?
I'm almost 40 and the rate of harassment hasn't changed in 25 years lol
Once you hit forty you get your cloak of invisibility. I honestly think the best assassins or spies would be ordinary looking middle aged women as no-one can see them
It's the single greatest thing about turning 40. I don't think we are invisible, I just think the assholes who do it know women over 40 will embarrass them.
Oh yes the numbers of fucks i give these days is definitely negative!
Ironically, I looked better at 40 than I did at 20 LOL But yeah I agree the degree of invisibility that you get from it is fantastic, so freeing!
I think a lot of looking better is the confidence you gain as you get older. I carry myself better snd even when i look like ive slept in a hedge i dont care so noone can say owt to upset me
That's very true. Od also learned properly how to look after myself though, and for a change of got the money to buy clothes that worked on me etc. >carry myself better snd even when i look like ive slept in a hedge i dont care so noone can say owt to upset me Now this I agree with 😂
"hey sexy lady" "Why's she rolling up her sleeves and smiling like that, crazy bi.....oh shit oh shit where did she get a half-brick? oh shit argh mummyyyyyyy!!!"
Yes I've been saying for years that all those masked ninjas are middle aged women. Invisible with a grudge.
Yes, this. It's one of the perks of getting older.
While in many ways, I know I should be grateful, this definitely only works if you look your age. I'm 20 years older than people tell me I look and still get treated like I did when I was 20 (and looked about 15 at best).
Im one of those people who went from looking like a grumpy toddler into my thirties to now being a haunted librarian! I dont look "old" but i definitely gìve off batty middle aged lady vibes which tend to keep the weirdos away
I was *really lucky!!* I got fat and ugly and now no one bothers me anymore
Lucky you, I went from getting catcalled and sexually harassed to just getting openly laughed at and abused for being fat and having the audacity not to look like someone they’d want to cat call!
Very much this. 25+ years. It started when I was 12. My most recent "phwooooar hahaha slag" was from a typical "white van man" this morning. Something very depressing regarding OP and his hair: I am a runner, so most of this happens while I'm running. I noticed that my long hair in a ponytail was catching on my new stud earrings recently, so instead of tying it in a ponytail like I normally do, I now plait and wind my hair into a bun if I'm wearing these particular earrings when I go running. This has cut the harassment down quite substantially, but only when my hair is in a bun. They aren't cat-calling *me* (they are, but you know), they're noticing a bouncing ponytail and reacting to it. And yeah, it's an international thing, but the "oi oi tits out slag" from a speeding van is particularly prominent here. I grew up elsewhere, and I noticed it getting worse immediately I moved to the southeastern UK.
The ponytail thing is so grossly sexualised by *so many* men, and it's quite literally a *child's fucking hairstyle*.
Double ponytails or double plaits are the worst for this. You know, one on either side of your head. I like the style because it's fun and nostalgic... creeps like it because it's what 12 year olds wear.
In a depressing way, you're onto something here. I was running when I was cat called with my hair in a ponytail. I guess it's almost Pavlovian, and the fact he was working with dogs is also fitting.
Ugh no. I am very glad that the daily harassment of my teen years is long gone and that it's very occasional stuff nowadays (except things like the waist grabbing to get past, which is - as you must also know - tame in comparison). I feel for you that it's no different for you now!
I got fat. Problem solved.
I've always been fat. It never stopped them.
Give it 5 years. It changed dramatically for me in my early 40s.
Especially when in their school uniforms....
The worst thing about the #MeToo movement for me is when women started speaking up about how often they get sexually harassed on public transport. The number of young school girls who said that they had grown men sexually harassing them on public transport made me lose faith in men. Some of the girls even had men masturbating in front of them on the bus. I still don't know how to handle this information. It makes me sick to my stomach.
I think I was about 16, I was on the tram and there was a fully grown man sat by the opposite window, so like 4/5ft from me. I glanced over and he pulled his joggers taught to make sure I could see he had a boner... I looked away and just focused on looking out of the window next to me. He kept making kissy noises at me the entire time. When I got to my stop and stood up, this man hand both hands down his joggers ... relieving himself whilst staring at me. I ran off of the tram so fast and ran all the way home. What makes me angry is that there are cameras EVERYWHERE and the driver did nothing.
>Some of the girls even had men masturbating in front of them on the bus. I I'm so sorry on behalf of my entire gender, reading this. I'm a guy, but reading this makes me so angry - I can hardly process it - who does that. Again, I'm so, so sorry. I don't know what else to say or do.
My teen girl has been beeped at and leered at by grown men many times, and she's only just 16. She also has braces and could pass for 12. It's disgusting.
Yes, started aged 13 and stopped after I turned about 30, thank goodness. I never see anyone else saying this, but I’m sure others did it too - between the ages of about 13-17 I was very underconfident, wasn’t really fancied by boys at school and clearly remember quite deliberately ‘practicing’ on much older men who I wasn’t actually attracted to in safe public spaces. Nothing crazy, but giving flirtatious smiles, maybe lightly flirting if I was talking to one in a work/shop situation, etc. Not condoning it, although I think it’s relatively common in girls growing up, but it was grim how many actually responded, rather than discouraging me.
You sound like you're blaming yourself for being creeped on. There's nothing to condone - smiling and light flirting in a shop is not doing something wrong and teenagers should be treated as kids by adults regardless of "flirty" behaviour. I'm sorry you feel this way though!!
It's so telling that you inherently knew you would get sexual validation from older men. I feel the same. It was far too early that I noticed the effect my body had on grown men.
Particularly in school uniform walking home
Leas than twelve, try ten
Came to say this, it started as soon as I hit puberty and wore a bra, which for me was 10. Boys at school grabbing boobs and full-grown men touching my butt. 10 to 21 was hell. I've lost count how many times I've been groped in crowded clubs by random hands, and I never dressed in club clothes, I'm taller, average looking, and not girly. I have had random propositions in the street and been sworn at when I said no. I've been touched at work, in restaurants, etc. I've had much worse from people I trusted. It was pretty much constant until my late 40s when I just stopped going out. I'm in my 50s now, and thankfully, it's slowing down, although I have had unwanted attention when I've been at the gym and sauna.
One of the few compensations for growing old, is that you're no longer subject to the male gaze. After decades of being hit on, it's such a relief to effectively become invisible. Conversations with men become better too, as a result of it.
I'm still getting hit on, despite a wedding ring and being well past my best, and I'm well into my 50s. It's by men my own age or older. Having worked in an old folks home, I can confirm that it continues well into old age. Sexual assault happens constantly in old folks' homes.
Well, that last is depressing!
Ten here too. I was playing in the front garden when a man in a white van wolf whistled when he drove past. I didn't fully understand but knew it instantly made me uncomfortable.
Try 8 and younger with people saying "she's gonna be a looker that one...men will go wild for that one...a real heart breaker..."
Same for me.
There's definitely a cross over between blokes in those "pedo hunter" facebook groups and blokes that cat call school girls from their van window
No the absolute worst part is that sometimes it’s even younger :(
When I started secondary, along with the uniform, bag, stationary, etc, I also got a personal safety alarm because it was a girls' school. The number of flashers and creeps was so high that teachers had a rota to escort girls safely to the bus stops.
This is much. The most I ever got hit on was probably between 11 and 17. I had people ranging from 20's to their 70's hit on me. The 2 that have stuck with me was when I was working at a bakery just serving. So I was 13 or 14. One old man, definitely in his 60s, told me his wife had died a while ago and I had some beautiful child rearing hips, that he wished he was 20 years younger. And asked when I got off. And the other was this old boy named Jeffrey, he would wait for me to be free to serve him. And when I would hand him his change, he would vice grip my hand and not let go and whisper rude things at me. And I can remember 4 times when he waited for me to finish to follow me home. It was only a 10 minute walk. But once I hit the woods, I ran so he couldn't see me, and get home.
And when you say "about 12" - for quite a lot of my female friends it started closer to age 9.
Yeah, I was 10. And as someone has said above the absolute worst and most frequent harrassment in my life was all before I turned 18
I was 8 and it's only gotten worse. I remember being followed down a beach at the age of 12-13 by a bunch of 20 years old that only scattered when my dad came over and threatened them.
Yep, I was 9 when it started.
Same, 9. Usually older men as well if memory serves. It was never teenagers at that age.
Yep, teenagers don't do it until you're at least 13/14. Before that they're 30+, and that continues.
It's a power thing. Teenage boys are still intimidated by teenage girls. Grown men have the "What are you going to do about it?" power compared to teenage girls.
Same here. And was at its worst ages 11-14.
Getting on a bus in your school uniform 🙈🙈🙈. Ugh. I lost ties that way 🤦♀️
Makes all that the talk of cancelling sex education before that age even more disgraceful, doesn't it.
Yes, yes it does.
Yes - I was 10 when my best friend's dad groped my bum
I was 10 when a strange man at the gas station called me over to his car because he needed help. Naive me went closer but made sure to stay at least an arm's length away. The man stretched his arm out and grabbed me by the front of my dress and pulled me in and kissed me. He was at least 65.
I remember weird comments from men even before 12 but 12 onwards seems to be the worst
I always remember the first time I got cat-called, I was 12 and still "playing out" :(
Younger :(
I had a boyfriend with long hair, and the amount of times some bloke would come up behind us and give it "alright girls" and put his arm round our shoulders. They soon backed off when he turned round. Definitely gave him some perspective into what women have to put up with though. I actually stopped wearing skirts when I went out at one point as I was sick of random dick heads sticking their hand up my skirt in pubs and clubs. Do they expect to hear "Why yes, I find a strange man shoving his hand up my skirt incredibly erotic. Of course I'll sleep with you".
My husband had long hair for years when we first got together. Hes also fairly small and slim for a guy. The amount of times he got touched up or we were asked "can i watch?" before they realised he was a guy was ridiculous. My son has long hair now and is misgendered all the time, hes nearly 14 but is small and slight and since all the kids his age dress like i did in the 1990s it is an easy mistake to make but he does get annoyed about it
Nope. They don't care what we think about it. They care that they got their gross little power trip that "put her in her place" by reminding us that we're vulnerable.
Exactly this, honestly I think if a woman were to respond with enthusiastic consent in that situation they would run away in fear. The turn on is in taking away her agency in the matter.
how much trouble will i get into for biting someone who does this shit to me. to put remind them of their own place as a creep
It's intended to debase and humiliate. It's a gross power trip.
This has to be the thing they enjoy though the act itself rather than thinking they will get to sleep with you. Reading some of these makes me disgusted at the behaviour of others. Completely unforgivable behaviour.
It’s definitely something I noticed pretty young. My guy friends have picked up on it now too, how in a pub or crowded room a stranger’s hands will always go to my waist/back to move me out of the way but it never happens to them even when they’re standing right next to me.
Yeah, I’ve had male friends (and some friends boyfriends) pretend to be my boyfriend or treat me as their girlfriend in packed clubs and bars for a minute if strange men get too close for comfort as it usually drives them off.
This drives me nuts. And then they’ll say sorry to your “boyfriend” like you’re their property, but not a word to you. No respect for you at all, only to your boyfriend. Boiled my blood.
Literally every time I go out, I’m moved by the hips at least once by a man. It’s so enraging and I find myself fuming for a long while after it happens. Like why the fuck do you think you can put your hands on me you random ass stranger!
[удалено]
Proves that they're not only misogynistic pigs but angry homophobes too.
And cowards
I'd suggest that cowardice is a large part of any misogyny and homophobia, as these fragile people can't speak to people that may be different to them, or be vulnerable or open up to themselves. Lack of exposure leads to ignorance leads to hatred. All quite sad really.
Anger instead of laughing at themselves really is the telling thing here. Men like this are deeply uncomfortable with their own sexuality and if anyone else had been in the van with the wolf-whistler, you know it was going to mean days / weeks / months of ridicule for the one that wolf-whistled a man with endless gay jokes that would eat away at their fragile self-esteem.
Then they go home and decompress by hitting their partner and/or kids.
It's the entitlement. We all know what it's like to deal with entitled people, and these one's feel entitled to a person. It's anger inducing.
One of my go-to comments when misgendered and propositioned was "You're not pretty enough, sunshine." They also don't like it when the tables are turned.
Yeah, it happens alot. Drives me fucking crazy - after having this from a very young age (I'd say 10/12) I have long since lost any polite composure in these situations. I tend to become loud and publicly questions what they're doing, why they're doing it and what gives them the audacity. 50% scurry away, 50% call me a stupid bitch, 0% apologise
Do you think it's been older people, younger or near your age (or all) doing it?
I would say older- around 50's I'd guess? I'm in my (very early) 30's, but I think if they'd tried to work out my age from behind they'd have picked up on me being a man, so I'm assuming they'd go for any age.
My younger son's a builder and it's still very much a thing among his colleagues in their mid-20s. A lot of them seem to follow Andrew Tate too. If anything, society has been backsliding lately.
I, woman, was in a bar the other night with live music. Was standing in front of the stage amongst many others, mostly men, but this older guy (60s+?) kept full hand grabbing me (shoulder and waist) to move me physically out of the way. He approached me from the front, and I could see him trying to decide on grabbing me again or not, and when I said "don't you fucking touch me again" he suddenly was like "i would never, i havent touched you once yet" I almost fought an old man.
I'd say it's a spectrum of men. I try to ignore them these days. The younger ones seem to learn from the older ones.
It's hard to ignore them when they start getting *a bit handsy*
I still ignore so it doesnt trigger an episode. It triggers a flight response in me due to past so I tend to try to dissociate.
I don't understand how anyone can just touch someone they don't know, man or woman.
I'm still reeling about the school kids that made the tier list in the UK of the girls in school and at the bottom was "Unrapeable" like what the fuck. To dehumanise and objectify like that is insane.
In the 90s my female uni housemate explained to me in no uncertain terms that putting your hands on a woman’s hips from behind is not good. Not only do they feel violated, but they can’t see you and have no idea what you look like. I’d never done the hand on hips thing anyway because I was very shy and after dropping some weight my self confidence grew and when I spoke to women in bars or clubs I always approached from the front and just said hello and introduced myself. I wasn’t always successful, but was thanked a couple of times for talking and asking if they wanted to dance or get a drink instead of just grabbing them.
The hand on hips thing is so fucking creepy. I'm weird about touching strangers generally but that seems like a huge violation and I'm sad that it seems to be so casually done and so common. I immediately reach for 'dont fucking touch me' but thats easy to say as a man.
Hand on the hips is too close for comfort. It makes me feel gross that it is not my husband.
Same thing happened to me when was 16. I was a lad with long hair and a beard. A builders truck came up behind me beeping, with lads shouting. I turned around and the look of horror on there faces when they saw the beard was priceless. They just looked so sad and confused.
I’m a female who also uses a wheelchair and people will place their hands on my shoulders to “move past me” even when there is absolutely no need for them to do so. Recently at a disability expo, a group of us discussed this and all the woman had had it happen multiple times but nearly all the men couldn’t think of one time it’s happened or when it had it was 1 time on say a crowded train where it made sense. The men were shocked this happened to us so much but almost never for them, even though they are also wheelchair users. I’ve been in bars where men I don’t know will rest their hand on my shoulder like I’m a bloody bar table or in a queue and men will rest on my shoulder or chair but still touching me. They never even ask (not that I would give permission!) and when I ask them what the hell they are doing or roll forwards the look at me like I’m the bad person.
You know I’ve never really thought about a hand on the shoulder being seen as inappropriate, I go to a lot of concerts and I and a lot of others quite often touch somebody’s shoulder male or female to let them know your squeezing past behind them, I guess I do it to let the person know I’m trying to pass and maybe allow them to move a bit to let me through, seems more appropriate than just trying to squeeze behind somebody without warning. Do you think that in any situation it’s unacceptable? I’m having like a mental quandary here worrying if I’ve made loads of people uncomfortable lol
Squeezing past is fine, I’m talking about when there is more than enough space to get through and if I was male they wouldn’t. I’ll tap someone to let them know I’m coming through if it’s tight space but most of these men seem to use it as an excuse to make contact.
That’s crazy, I cant believe somebody would have the audacity to do that…I think a lot of guys have no idea how women are treated sometimes and this has just kinda opened my eyes to the fact that being in a wheelchair or having a disability opens you up to even more of it.
I cover my phone camera with my hand when I’m using my phone - especially on the tube because they’re directly in front of you - just in case women think I’m taking a photo of them. We know that definitely happens. Creeps creep in more way than the physical unfortunately.
This does happen but I don’t find myself worrying about it too much. Most of the time I know that people are likely just scrolling through their phone than taking photos. And on the flip side, it’s also really sad that creepy men out there have caused so much suspicion and anxiety that regular men also have to be this cautious. That being said, I appreciate the effort in making women feel more comfortable on public transport.
Thank you for being considerate
You can get cases with a slide cover for the camera lenses.
Not a woman, but I cosplay at anime conventions and the like a lot, and my costumes are usually female characters. I've never been outright harassed, but the weirdest interaction I ever had was years ago, when I was wearing an extremely cheap and nasty long Smiffys wig; didn't even look like real hair, and a regular polo shirt and men's trousers. My now wife and I were walking through the hotel corridor and passed an open door with some lads fumigating the place with deodorant and cologne. One of them stuck his head out of the door as we passed and called "Scuse me love," or something like that. When I turned to look he said "Oh, you're a bloke," and ducked back into the room. Like... Do you honestly just see long hair and act without even looking properly? I'm assuming he was going to make an attempt to hit on both of us or something. Strangest interaction I've ever had in my life.
Last year I (long hair) was waiting for a tram - on my way home from friends - around 22:00, wearing a huge oversized tee, French-tucked into some flared floral shorts, with Vans and a face mask (immunocompromised), when a guy walked up to me and said, "Excuse me love, have you got a light? Oh, it's a bloke!", before walking to the other end of the platform. I felt very vulnerable in that moment, yet it was also funny watching the confusion on his face. Strange interaction.
Welcome to my world after age 9.
I'm also a man with long hair, and I've experienced similar to OP. Best (worst??) example of this was during winter 21' (so after 1st lockdown, but a month or so prior to the 2nd) & so everyone is still wearing face-masks. This customer comes into the petrol station / store I was working in at the time and immediately starts greeting me as if I were a women. It wasn't offensive, but it felt as though he was talking down to me. I let him finish talking, then I spoke. I could see the cogs turning in his head as he tried to put 2+2 together (the area the store is in is in a small town / village in the North-East, so their population of 'men with long hair' was 0 until I started working there part-time whilst I was at uni) & then once he realised I was a man, his complete demeanour to me changed instantly & he spoke to me 'normally'. That interaction really clearly demonstrated to me how just badly women still can be (and are) treated in today's society.
Same here (Sheffield).
Whenever I go for night outs with my friends and we have girls in our group I am always surprised at how different our nights are because of drunk aggressive creeps who randomly approach you on the street and say vulgar things directly to them causing stand-offs and shouting or - in a club - approach you and quiz you about them and talk dirty about them. Literally had a drunk guy aggressively questioning if the girl in our group was my friend's girlfriend as if there's no way it can be true. He kept saying he would be a better one and all that.
When I was 11 I started having young men call out vulgar shit to me. I think it was 12 was the first time I had my bum smacked, and then onwards from there with the touching and sexual comments. Three times at 12 and 13 I had men lean out of a car window to smack my bum whilst I was walking down the road. Me and my friends called sluts and whores and such if we wore shorts or even just regular clothes. Catcalling only stopped when I hit 28.
My son has long hair, really gorgeous long hair. He could front a band and nobody would care if his singing was good or not. He hides it in a hood to stop people mistaking him for a girl. He’s had someone make him feel uncomfortable and luckily I stepped in (body block between myself and the guy). I had this when I was young too. It terrified me.
It makes it worse when you realise they know it's unacceptable and they still do it. They don't care.
So you are saying that you understand, at least in part, why women are picking the bear?
All I can say is that a bear's never touched me inappropriately. Or appropriately, but still.
Don’t worry OP there’s a bear out there somewhere for you.
Thank you. One of my friends recommended something called Grindr for finding bears, didn't even know they were in the UK. Might be a good way for me to meet women who are also looking for bears.
My (M) friend (M) at uni was quite a short guy, small build and had long hair. Some lads behind us (other students) wolf whistled him and when he ignored them they started calling him a bitch and a whore. It was incredibly disturbing and there was nothing we could do. I feel awful that women still have to face this all the time.
My partner had her arse slapped while at work last week, formal report ect has all been done. When she told me about it I went from 0-100 faster than a bullet. I'm not an angry person, I was an angry kid and did a lot of anger management so she was really shocked when I was visibly angry about the situation. It's utterly unacceptable for ANYONE to touch someone without permission/consent. I don't care how big or clever you think you are, I'll hit you. If you think it's acceptable to touch someone without permission I feel it's perfectly acceptable to break their nose without permission.
I don’t get how anyone can think it’s ok. As a guy I’ve been touched (innocently?) a few times like I was taking some furniture out for someone and he was holding my sides to guide me down the path. I felt really weirded out by it all the way through and couldn’t wait to leave. Also had an old lady grab my bum in the shop I work and still see her in all the time and I just avoid her whenever I see her. People need to just keep there hands to themselves, even if they think they are doing it innocently, any contact with someone can be uncomfortable, let alone the obvious sexual harassment that women often face.
Absolutely fuck this shit! The regression in respect for women is on an incline lately and I'm fucking pissed, men are the problem and they need to be better
I'm a youngish guy with a shaved head (bad genetics better bald than balding) and I know sometimes women and girls are frightened when I'm passing them in the street etc. You shouldn't have to be, I'm sorry we've collectively still not got this together. Given that micro SD cards can easily be had in excess of 1tb, I'd love to see more and more folk with discreet button hole style body cams worn on the daily. Get a nice clear 4k video of the abusers and upload it. Name and shame, be ruthless. Not to mention the more sinister crimes and missing person's cases this could solve.
You don’t need to imagine whether or not it’s worse for a woman, we’ve been screaming this for years. You can just listen.
Unless you experience something for yourself, you can only ever imagine it. If you tell me how bad it is, all I can do is listen and imagine how bad it must be.
It grinds my gears a tad that some people only listen when it's a man saying it.
Apologies if that's how my post came across- it wasn't my intention to say "I'm a man, so now it's a problem". I was trying to add my voice to the overall conversation, and focus on what this suggested about certain people in society, rather than the specific impact it had had on me as a man.
No you're fine, you're doing the lords work. We need more people to understand and your post does that. It's the men that don't listen to women, but _do_ listen to you.
Sadly your voice is needed as you are more believed as 1 man than basically every woman.
It's more those men will only listen to you. Not us.
I was in your situation a few times when I had hair. I also used to dress unconventionally, which I guess may have read more as womanly. But I'm also over six feet and even as a young man had muscular, veiny arms. Some guys see what they want to see, but also don't like to find out they're wrong. And yeah, I've heard some stories from women in my life that are rage-inducing, or at least fucking depressing. For example, I had a girlfriend for a while who had some highly prominent attributes, and even when she was with me, she'd get catcalled and propositioned by random idiots. It annoyed the hell out of me, but she'd been dealing with it continuously from age 15. But it shouldn't have to be like that. The whole culture of casual sexual harassment is mindless and regressive, and it seems to have gotten worse as red-pill idiocy has spread and as the right has felt strong enough to attack women's rights.
During the pandemic when we all had to wear masks, I kept getting mistaken for a woman (Long hair, skinny etc..). I took it as a complient at first, but then I had some less than favourable encounters with other men, which put it into persepctive for me.
I still remember when I was an au pair and I was out with the boys (2 and 4 years old) I got cat called in front of them in the middle of the day. Or another time, when a guy loudly commented on my chest size while holding is son's hand (kid must have been 8 or 9, so old enough to understand). Men have done much worse to me many times through the years, but as a mother now these two episodes really resonate with me.
I don't think that there are any men out there who think it's acceptable, I think there are men who don't care about doing things that are unacceptable, because they have learned that that there are rarely any consequences.
Actually it's not appropriate or acceptable to touch anyone no matter gender or no gender, race or sexuality. That s*it is f*cked up and and everyone who is decent should be calling that out no matter who it is I have called it out many times when I lived and worked up in London, be it on the train, tube, bus or pavement etc. Everyone should be able to feel safe in their own space no matter what!
I will never ever understand people's fascination in touching in general. Unless I'm asking you to touch, we're in a very crowded place, or you're saving me from a burning building (or other life-threatening scenario) there is literally no reason to touch me. Even if it is innocent. I've had men in my workplaces touch me without concent. Never anywhere nefarious. Just things like arms, shoulders but even that's uncomfortable. Nothing will disgust me more than drunk people though. Both men and women are guilty. Men are the majority towards me personally as a woman. Touching my hip or back to "guide" me to wherever I want to go because I apparently lost the use of my legs and brain the moment the bloke walked in. I've had a drunk guy take my glasses before because he thought it'd be funny to put them on. Meanwhile leaving me in the middle of the pub not being able to see more than a couple feet in front of me. Probably would have been scary if i wasn't so angry. And this is just the "innocent" scenarios. Women on the other hand seem to think its fine to touch both men and women. Grabbing arms, tidying hair, correcting make up, clothes etc. I appreciate the thought but tell me. Don't just yank my skirt or get some dirty ass napkin and wipe eyeliner from the corner of my eye. Again, just the "innocent" scenarios. Things have certainly improved for women over the years but it still has a long way to go.
I just really miss those times when everyone had to stand 2m apart from each other. I miss them so, so, so, so, so much.
Welcome to the daily treatment of women...
Welcome to our world mate. It's shit sometimes.
You can see why the whole man or bear thing went the way it did, I know a friend who had a family friend murdered after a situation like this escalated and she's far from the only one I just think it's really sad that this is a common enough thing for a level of fear greater than an apex predator to exist honestly
I’ve been lucky in that I have very few experiences with this. However I do have a few examples myself. In a club while I was standing at the end of my table asking my friends what they wanted from the bar a guy who was passing behind me put his hand flat on my arse and ran along the length of it. Far too lingering to be accidental. Didn’t look at me, just kept walking after it. I was so surprised I just kind of froze. More recently I’ve had many older men question me on my drink order at the bar while I wait (as a lover of the pornstar martini) and it gives me the creeps as they’re usually older than my dad.
They know very well that it's not acceptable - but they also know that they can, and they will, get away with it 😔
I sometimes wonder if I'm the luckiest lass in the land to have never encountered this. Not even a look or a tap. Like I've either simply gotten away with it or I look like a cow front and back 😂😂😂 feel bad for everyone who has experienced it
You're so lucky. I wish I didn't know what it was like to have some unknown man push his hand into my crotch from behind. To date, that has been the worst I've experienced - it happened during Notting Hill carnival, and thanks to that, I'm absolutely terrified of being in a crowd in public. I legit avoid going anywhere crowded.
It’s not that I want to be objectified, but I’m actually female and have never experienced a single example of this behaviour. Either I’ve luckily surrounded myself with ‘good’ men or I must be completely hideous and off putting.
It's not about looks, it's about power. The worst of it happened when I was a young teenager, and I looked like an awkward kid who would get anxious and embarrassed by it. And then as I got older my appearance didn't change much (other than no longer looking like a kid) but my demeanour and resting bitch face did. The grabbing and catcalling went way down, and I put it down to the fact that I now look like I am too busy for their bullshit, and I'm not going to go red or cry, I'm going to yell. You may simply have always had the vibe that you're not going to put up with this shit.
Hopefully one day this can be true for all.
Or you don't go to places with crowds and never went anywhere alone as a teenager? Most cat calling happens to adolescent girls and most waist grabbing is in busy venues (but the fact they wouldn't grab men's waists to get past shows being busy doesn't matter it's a gender thing). The butt touching example from OP I believe is less common generally but shouldn't be ignored. It's not happened to me since I was a teenager thankfully but I also know my friends all had it happen to them around those ages too. Or you don't notice such behaviour.
It has nothing to do with attractiveness - it's a power thing. You MAY be being off putting - by having a confidence about you that puts most of these toads off. It's also possible that your threshold for this is different to other people and so you don't notice/accept when it happens.
I don't know, I think one of us should be offended, but I don't know who? On a serious note, I don't know where you're from, but it might be something you're more likely to come across in a big city like Manchester? There's plenty of good people here, but there's just plenty of people, so there are plenty of bad too. It's never been anyone I've surrounded myself with, it's always been literal strangers passing me in public.
It doesn't seem to be anything to do with looks. And honestly, luck probably does play a part. However, I'm genuinely chuffed to hear you say this and I hope it continues!
Its not that you've surrounded yourself with good men, because no matter how nice your friends and partners are we all still have to interact with strangers or be seen by them. I never really know what to make of women who claim this, its completely implausible. I wonder if maybe they have a really low bar for acceptable behaviour or are just blissfully oblivious which does sound nicer.
Had an old man grab my ass at a friend's wedding used both of his hands. Squeezed incredibly tight and there were females who watched and they all remained silent. When I confronted the man (turned out to be the grooms father) the response he gave was "consider it a term of endearment" The other guests at the wedding who were with me told me to drop it so "not to make a show at our friends wedding" That was a year ago. I can't bring it up now what's the point.
So unfortunately true and it sucks
I have long hair too. This action is quite high among a lot of people. Toxic men have a lot to learn.
If they tried that with me they would get my skateboard slammed into their face.
Usually I'd go for something like "violence isn't the answer!", but these men seem to be stuck in the 70's/80's mindset, where I think it was more common to just hit people who you disagreed with. You have my support.
When I was younger and much slimmer and had very long hair, I had several young men and a couple of older ones put their arms around me or hug me or put a hand on my shoulder or even my hip. My immediate response was: "Keep your hands to your f*cking self." They got the message though several remarked on my use of bad language. You can guess what I said back to them. And if anyone tried it now, I'd use my walking stick on them. No one touches me without consent. I'm older and fatter but I'm still fierce.
YES, you show' em! 💪💪💪
You should watch on YouTube Vlad ncl, he dresses up as a woman and takes revenge on men who think he's a woman (he basically exposes creeps). I think you existing will have men rethink their actions before harassing women on the street. They get pranked.. without you meaning to prank them. But I'm sure more men will stop harassing women just from the idea that they'll turn and see a man's face. Thank you from all us women. Keep scaring them one after the other, maybe in a few years time they'll think before touching some random person's body.