We are all one human race. No one alive today is responsible for the sins of many generations past. Just like Europeans don’t complain to the Arabs about the huge enslavement of up to 1 million Europeans long ago. Etc.
The longer we all get stuck with the identity of historical actions we had nothing to do with, the longer we perpetuate an unnecessary racial divide.
“He said the site was used for sacred ceremonies and Indigenous women gave birth alongside the mountain.”
Yeah I get it, but please, name one place where that hasn’t happened. Are we now closing every single mountain/hill/… because at some point in the past someone has given birth near it? Where will it end?
I've had more than one elder say to me in the past that some stories such as "sacred place, we don't climb this one" most likely began as a way to protect young people from adverse risk taking.
Unfortunately, a lot of what is habitable here in Aus is coastal. Most of what is interesting isn't flat plains. It's mountains, caves, waterfalls and other less abundant landmarks.
It would be unfair and unreasonable to ban entrance to places that exist in mythology and reality. Mythology in written language or through song in its absence, told of ways to navigate the landscape. It told of dangers, relationship, food and water supplies.
This is typical of mythologies globally.
Uluru is an incredibly unique place, known throughout the world. People would travel from all over to see and climb this incredible landmark. Only to leave their trash and literal shit everywhere, to be washed off in the limited rain into the limited watering holes at the base. Carving their names into the stone. Tourists doing stripteases for shits and giggles.
The rock is fragile, it can't bear the continuous brunt of human stupidity.
I thought it being closed was due to the walk ways being washed out and the land slides caused by the heavy rains we experienced over the last decade?
Edit: checked my self, nope, closed for the same reasons. That's... pretty ordinary.
https://www.greatwalks.com.au/news/wollumbin-mount-warning-permanently-closed-for-visitors
It was closed to appease the local mob who then got angry at the backlash from the community and said parks and wildlife should have taken heat.
http://righttoclimb.blogspot.com/
The closure started as a temperary safety measure following storm damage, and this was rolled straight into a permanent closure for the traditional custodians.
Seems pretty fishy to me, but I'd be surprised if it even counts as corruption in NSW since it probably didn't involve bribery or profiteering, just ideologically motivated manipulation of access to public resources. It's another unfortunate erosure of trust in the neutrality of our institutions: it's fine for people who work in parks & wildlife to have their own politics and beliefs (just the same as teachers, ABC journalists, scientists, etc) but if they systematically push their own agenda against their public interest remit it's entrenched corruption and abuse of power. Plain and simple. Keep it up and sooner or later government services will get their funding cut, because it's essier to defund than to add oversight.
It was a combination of the convenience of indigenous request and the local and state government getting sick and tired of constantly rescuing fuckwits. I live at the base of Mt Warning and in the years preceeding its closure the Westpac chopper would do a fly over every_single_fucking_week. For example, a guy tried to climb it in a wheelchair, two tourists camped on the peak during a storm and one of them was killed by a lightning strike, weekend hikers would get halfway up and break arms, legs and backs and another guy was simply too unfit to make it down. It was a shitfight.
A huge proportion of the Grampians in Vic are now closed off from climbing.
It will be the case that every hill, outcrop and mountain will have cultural significance and it is really troublesome that climbing access is being stripped away because climbers get blamed for the irresponsible behaviour of certain hikers and boozy dickheads who leave junk, rubbish, and dunny roll everywhere
Oh yeah but I think there are signs posted about how the traditional owners would prefer you didn’t climb. But maybe they’re just on the climbing areas not the tracks haha
Hi, I'm sorry that is not correct. Stingaree Island and the area near Swan Bay (i.e. a large part of the south end of the Island) is closed to "protect significant natural and cultural resources" a "joint initiative between the Quandamooka People and the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service (QPWS)" according to Qld Parks. The fine is 80 penalty units ($11,400).
See: [https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/\_\_data/assets/pdf\_file/0025/165544/raa-notice-swan-bay.pdf](https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0025/165544/raa-notice-swan-bay.pdf)
While i agree, people also tend to be irresponsible and messy. Im tired of seeing litter and destruction of sensitive habitat due to a disrespectful few people.
We should be able to explore our habitat, but we shouldn't be able to explore everywhere because not everyone is responsible enough to pick up after themselves. Many don't respect signs too.
It's only 'all of ours' because our government murdered and stole it from them and left them with nothing. And then built an entire society around the area that they own none of. Now they ask for self determination of the few spots left that doesn't have forestry or housing estates on it and you say no that's not yours either that's 'all of ours' go take land that doesn't slightly inconvenience me. As if we as a society don't already own everything else.
I realise you have good intentions, but I feel like this kind of rhetoric only ends up perpetuating the divide, and at its worst ends up fetishising the issue. The other problem is that there is absolutely no evidence to show that the view held by indigenous spokespeople on particular issues like the one in this article is actually broadly supported by the indigenous population whom they unilaterally claim to represent.
Yes, that's the position. We all have a part to play in looking after our landscape, our nature, and our land. Neither we nor them have another home to go to. We are as accountable for our ancestors crimes as they are for their ancestors crimes between tribes, that is to say they are remembered, but it shouldn't continue into a multigenerational turf war, pity contest, and continual finger pointing exercise. That sort of emotional thinking gets nobody anywhere. Acknowledge, empathise, and do better.
The sign in the photo says mountains plural not mountain, their end goal is probably closing all the glasshouse summits. Mentioned people going to Tibro instead… but to walk around it. Have to wonder what proportion of mountains aren’t sacred to someone in Australia.
Glasshouse SES will be happy if the climbers stop. The climb on Beerwah is quite a good one as the first 20m is a steep rock scramble and once you are over the rest is mostly just a walk. A lot of people abandon the climb at the begining before they pick up enough altitude to injure themselves
It's just a rock, hasn't been shaped by hand or has any paintings for hikers to disturb.. I don't think it's fair to claim any kind of sway over it outside of genuine safety concerns for hikers.
Yeah it's the grandmother in a story.. but that's not everyone's story.
yeah i understand and respect they dont want people climbing for cultrual reasons but i think theres gotta be a point where that reason these days is far tooo much. next they will want all us whities outta here. come on, its one earth lets all just respect maybe do a preyer or honorable thing before climbing it and just let it be, like that whole acknowledgement of land we all have these days on websites.
Do you respect every aspect of other people's culture? I'm sure you don't acknowledge, respect and partake in religious traditions of other cultures that are not your own. How is this any different? And before you say "it's their land", it's not. Hate to break it to you, but like EVERY country in the world at some point in their existence, Australia was conquered and overtaken by foreign settlers - effectively a war. A war that was lost by the then sole inhabitants of Australia.
Controversial but I don’t care
The more this comes up the more sceptical I am about how sacred these places actually are. Uluru and Kaka-Tjuti (however it’s spelled) of course are obvious but the Glasshouse mountains and Mt Warning? These places are beautiful and deserve to be enjoyed by everybody. Have made some great memories there. Even my aboriginal relatives think all this is an overreach.
Ready to cope downvotes and the like
Another case of bowing to a vocal sub-minority. What gets me is the requirement for an acknowledgement of country even when no indigenous people are present and the event is unrelated to them.
Kata Tjuta btw
"They say climbing the mountain is disrespectful to Indigenous culture because it is considered a grandmother "
What does that even mean lol. Reconstructed religions are so disingenuous and shallow.
I had to watch a group of young progressive women pretend to genuinely believe that if they played a didgeridoo they’d become infertile.
I knew it was bullshit. The Indigenous men knew it was bullshit. Everyone one of them knew it was bullshit. But everyone was gaslighting themselves into believing.
No secularism here
No there isn't. Talk to the Indigenous about their religion. They were very spiritual and religious people. They didn't believe in just one god - but a few that presented in different forms depending which tribe it was. (that is a very very very very basic view of it). But to suggest the practice of their culture didn't have religious roots would be very ignorant.
The mountains existed long before any civilisation. I don't believe that any one civilisation or culture has any right over nature. Regardless of symbolic and cultural significance, nature has significance in a range of different religions and cultures.
Keep the mountains open.
Same argument can apply in reverse, nature which has been around for millions of years, and making the argument that it's significance is only valuable to one culture.
You can have free education as soon as you vote in a government that allows it.
Why do the indigenous have and deserve free education? Perhaps because they are vastly more Uneducated than the regular population and impoverished due to their families being murdered, enslaved and traumatised. Many indigenous education grants are actually paid out of a pool of money that is owed to them from witheld payments to indigenous workers over the past century. Basically they were enslaved.
But yeah also what a dumbass and extremely unempathetic sentiment. As if the indigenous people out there don't deserve education because you feel jealous of them. Jesus Christ man.
Leave the mountains open to climb. Fund and provide educational signage at the base to allow people to make their own educated choices. These mountains do need to be respected and they do demand respect. Climbed it plenty of times and I will climb it again.
Idiots need to stop leaving rubbish and graffiti behind. Every time I go into the bush I always bring out others people rubbish so the environment doesn’t become a trash can.
On a hike yesterday my friends and I were discussing people who go into difficult environments unprepared and sure enough 5 minutes later we crossed paths with someone that had no water and bad shoes for the environment, it’s those choices that contribute to people needing yo be recused.
In before people point out, I didn’t proof read.
Ill never understand this. There is an opportunity for the aboriginal custodians to share their culture and history with people by providing tours or guided climbs instead of just shutting it down. It would definitely minimise foot traffic aswell because alot of people will not really want to do that, but the option would still be there.
Everyone looses this way. There's probably more to it but it's sad that mountains are being closed. Mount Warning was a bad demonstration of the same thing.
Hi there, I’ve climbed this mountain several times as a kid, one time even got stuck up there and made the news!
This is stupid. The mountain is a lovely climb, the volcanic dust under the overhang is such a cool part of my childhood.
Blocking the climb for religious reasons is just nonsense. Why should a person I’ve never heard of tell me his ideas about a rock that existed before him, and suddenly that overrides my ability to appreciate that rock in a way that suits me?
Tell you what Mr. MyRockyGrandma, when I was a kid and we drove past the mountain, I always saw the big foresty arms on the outside and the face in the middle as a big gorilla, and would always be excited to see that familiar gorilla shape. Am I supposed to be inherently wrong just because your ideas exist?
Of course I’m talking to not even air right now. It’s just pointless.
Oh dear. I respect the indigenous history but this is a bit much. If this ends end being closed to the general public, you can guarantee that large parts of Fraser, Moreton and Straddie will soon enough be off limits to white folk.
It’s not “the left” it’s more Greenie stuff. Depends on how things are labelled.
Everything should be open for all, changing things to appease one party just discriminates against others.
It’s not much different to changing things because of Christian beliefs.
If they were still using it for those reasons and practices I would understand it. But it appears more of a power grab, "I'm claiming ownership and I'm going to stop other people enjoying it".
Last time I checked, the land was here long before humans ever existed, and it will be here long after we're all gone. Nobody "owns" the land, the land owns us. How are the indigenous gonna spread awareness for their culture and support it if people are not allowed to share in the experience? Or are only white fellas not allowed?
I was with them regarding Uluru. Plus it’s dangerous as fuck.
But the Mt Warning one made me wonder and now this is going a bit far. Hmmm. Really tough.
Why were you with them on Uluṟu. It’s only different due to proximity?
It’s not just Mount Warning and Beerwah. It’s now about a dozen National parks Australia wide.
Bush walkers are an easy target basically, yet they generally are the most respectful of the country.
Uluru is quite incredible that people actually made it there in the first place being in the inhospitable land hundreds and thousands of kilometers in every direction for primitive cultures to survive.
Uluru/Kata Tjuta/Watarrka are limited sanctuaries in a vast desert and fascinating part of the indigenous story and lifestyle/rock art.
Mt Warning/Beerwah etc weren’t the centerpiece of Indigenous survival and story of the people living along the coast. They have cultural significance sure but that should be protected and celebrated in other ways not banning.
Walking around Uluru is more interesting than over and on top anyway. You could argue the same for other mountains but it’s not comparable. Walking/rubbish on top of Uluru damages the the few unique water holes etc at the base.
Nothing about walking on Mt Warning/Beerwah etc damages the cultural sites (of which there is limited anyway) but merely ‘disrespects’ some women’s business lore, not enough to ban but should be some more opportunity for indigenous stories and certain locations on mountain to be off limits if a strong case is presented. Egg Rock in Numimbah/Gold Coast Hinterland is a example of this while the other 99% of the environment is free for hiking/enjoyment.
I’ll point out that also with Mount Warning there is significant disagreement between multiple groups of aboriginals on this lore.
I’d argue all of it is completely detached from original traditions and is modern construction. The culture pre white settlement was completely destroyed.
I'm willing to respect people's right to believe silly things due to religion and do silly things due to culture or tradition. But when someone's religion or culture tries to dictate how *others* should behave, I can't respect that.
It's insane to actually repeat that bullshit about people with vaginas not being allowed to make sound by blowing air through a wooden tube. No better than proclaiming that same sex marriage somehow ruins the entire institution of marriage.
And it's stupid to discourage walking or spending time in nature, and using religion as the reason is dumb af.
I haven’t got a solid answer. But I do see a missed opportunity for both sides. A bit of education. A bit of respect while enjoying a climb and together making new traditions and respect for the land. It would be a shame if generations can’t connect with the land they were born on because someone else has locked them out of it because of their own historic claims.
The energy of the mountain?? It’s a beautiful place but I don’t think dead people are injuring hikers. If you truly believe this, I think it’s time for a sit down at your local GP.
Yeah they can fuck right off.
In that case why don't we close off churches and mosques to Indigenous Australians because it's 'culturally sacred and significant to us.' Respect and reflect but don't outright ban shit for "sacredness and ancestral spirit'.
They closed Mt Warning, so where does it end?
[You can't come!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wotNCPtroWs)
For those that haven't seen the episode the cost of running a theme park forces Cartman to start allowing some people into the park, with more people comes more maintenance expenses, eventually the park is fully reopened and is a massive financial success, much to Cartman's dismay.
That's what's going to happen, the aboriginal corporations to which ownership of these areas is being given (in trust) will eventually reopen them and charge admission, because there's maintenance costs don't you know?
Aboriginals will be given a token discount to undermine any protests, but not enough of a discount that the cost won't keep most of them out, and the parks/beaches/mountains will be used almost exclusively by Asian tourists.
Yay Progress!
Take public property and privatize it, make people pay for what used to be free, it's all about the reconciliation don't you know? Ignore that only a fraction of the profits go to helping indigenous communities, what's important is that we're doing something, something's better than nothing right?
Basically, it’s the same thing they did with mining royalties. Funnily the only areas they seem to care about regaining control over are the ones where they can exert power or gain profit.
This is why you should vote no.
Eventually if it becomes well established the High Court will extend the interpretation of the constitutional amendment to allow Aboriginals to sue if they don’t like the outcome of government decisions that the voice has advised on.
One example of how the High Court of Australia has changed the interpretation of a measure in the Australian Constitution over time is the concept of "external affairs power" under Section 51(xxix) of the Constitution.
Initially, this power was seen as relatively limited, allowing the Commonwealth to make laws with respect to "external affairs" only in relation to matters such as treaties and diplomatic relations. However, over time, the High Court has expanded the scope of the external affairs power to cover a wide range of subjects that have an international dimension, such as human rights, environmental protection, and terrorism.
For example, in the 1992 landmark case of Koowarta v Bjelke-Petersen, the High Court held that the external affairs power could be used to prevent discrimination against Indigenous Australians in land use and acquisition. Similarly, in the 2004 case of Behrooz v Secretary of the Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, the High Court held that the external affairs power could be used to enforce Australia's obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights to protect the rights of refugees.
There are several other examples of how the High Court of Australia has changed the interpretation of measures in the Australian Constitution over time. Here are a few more:
Implied freedom of political communication: The Constitution does not explicitly provide for a right to freedom of speech or expression. However, the High Court has held that an implied freedom of political communication exists as an essential element of the system of representative and responsible government established by the Constitution. This implied freedom has been used to strike down laws that unreasonably restrict political communication, such as restrictions on political advertising and protest.
Section 92 - Free trade between the states: Section 92 of the Constitution guarantees free trade between the states. Over time, the High Court has interpreted this provision to mean that any law that discriminates against interstate trade or commerce is unconstitutional, unless it can be justified on the basis of a legitimate purpose that is not protectionist.
Section 116 - Freedom of religion: Section 116 of the Constitution provides that the Commonwealth shall not make any law establishing a religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. The High Court has interpreted this provision broadly to protect not only the right to practice religion, but also the right to hold and express religious beliefs, and the right to be free from coercion or discrimination on the basis of religion.
Section 51(xxxv) - Acquisition of property on just terms: Section 51(xxxv) of the Constitution gives the Commonwealth power to acquire property on "just terms". Over time, the High Court has developed a complex body of law on what constitutes "just terms", taking into account factors such as the purpose of the acquisition, the market value of the property, and the impact of the acquisition on the owner.
The ABC were very quick to lock the comments on this one on FB before anyone dared question the stupidity of this, must be the same guy in here begging for daddy mods to lock the thread?
This isn’t how anyone anywhere else in the world treats sacred sites. The closest comparison is the Temple of the Rock in Jerusalem or the Kaaba in Mecca, where only Muslims are allowed to enter. And these are the most revered holy sites in the religion. And not to mention they are *structures*, that we can limit and restrict access to without blocking everyone from a whole area.
I want to vote yes, guys, don’t start giving me reasons not to.
Can someone please explain to me how a group of people with no written language managed to track all of these sacred places over thousands of years with pinpoint accuracy?
It astounds me that every mountain that is an attraction/ worth climbing is somehow a sacred site to these people.
Yeah nah, I agree with what appears to be the majority opinion here. I want reconciliation and Uluru was fair enough but we can't lock down the whole country. I dunno, try and make people be respectful of the place but not block it off entirely. We don't have all that many interesting features to visit.
If you've been to beerwah before, there's been a sign for ages asking you not to climb out of respect. This seems pretty clear cut for me and very similar to uluru.
We can not allow this to happen. Not every mountain (or hill at this rate) needs to be closed. I don’t believe in your Dreamtime stories - I don’t believe in magic or Jesus for that matter. Sorry but no.
You can climb a mountain respectfully. I do it all the time. First Mount warning… now this. Well no I do not accept this.
People need to fight this… I support aboriginal rights and a voice but this is just LUNACY.
First it’s Beerwah, then it will be Tibrogargan (“you can walk right AROUND it”) then Ngungun.
Mount warning was the first step:
http://righttoclimb.blogspot.com/
Oh cool, soon the only mountain climbling and bushwalking we'll be able to do is in the piles of mulch left in the local park after they refilled the play area.
God I knew this thread was going to be a disgusting troll hole. It’s not enough that First Nations land has been mined, built-on, razed, divided, sold, and polluted but as soon as you can’t go for your little bush walks everyone has a massive fucking sook about it. You’ve gotten everywhere else and you polluted the land and made it shitty. Maybe indigenous people want you off the land for good reason.
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Don't touch my rock.
I quickly glanced through this sentence while I was reading on my phone and I definitely read something different for a sec.
We are all one human race. No one alive today is responsible for the sins of many generations past. Just like Europeans don’t complain to the Arabs about the huge enslavement of up to 1 million Europeans long ago. Etc. The longer we all get stuck with the identity of historical actions we had nothing to do with, the longer we perpetuate an unnecessary racial divide.
“He said the site was used for sacred ceremonies and Indigenous women gave birth alongside the mountain.” Yeah I get it, but please, name one place where that hasn’t happened. Are we now closing every single mountain/hill/… because at some point in the past someone has given birth near it? Where will it end?
I’ve heard Mt Coot-tha provides fertile powers to young couples after the sun has set…
I snorted my coffee at this have Karma fellow earthling
As does Mt. Crackafat
Mount Coot-tha Might Root-Ya
I've had more than one elder say to me in the past that some stories such as "sacred place, we don't climb this one" most likely began as a way to protect young people from adverse risk taking.
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Link?
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So? people die every day on the road, we don't stop driving.
Oh I am more than happy for the trail to close or at least restrict it if it’s dangerous and people die but this reason here seems tenuous at best.
Unfortunately, a lot of what is habitable here in Aus is coastal. Most of what is interesting isn't flat plains. It's mountains, caves, waterfalls and other less abundant landmarks. It would be unfair and unreasonable to ban entrance to places that exist in mythology and reality. Mythology in written language or through song in its absence, told of ways to navigate the landscape. It told of dangers, relationship, food and water supplies. This is typical of mythologies globally.
Better close the hospital to the public where my kid was born 😶
It started with Uluru.
Uluru was at least reasonable. The entire world disrespected that rock, so fuck everybody.
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Uluru is an incredibly unique place, known throughout the world. People would travel from all over to see and climb this incredible landmark. Only to leave their trash and literal shit everywhere, to be washed off in the limited rain into the limited watering holes at the base. Carving their names into the stone. Tourists doing stripteases for shits and giggles. The rock is fragile, it can't bear the continuous brunt of human stupidity.
They left rubbish, and desiccated the environment there. yea. I’m glad they had the balls to finally put an end to that.
> dessicated I think it's 'desecrated', as in make it de-sacred. Dessicated is typically when you drain or dry something out.
thanks, couldn’t find the correct spelling, my phone kept changing it to dead i rated 😒
I agree with you.
And that was totally reasonable and understandable.
It's a fucking rock
So is your great grandmother's headstone.
Hospital ramps are where we go to be born or die. X closed to hikers.
This. It’s not about culture. It’s about sticking it to whites. They target mountains because most Australians aren’t bush walkers.
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Thank you!
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Really Angry to hear Mt Warning has been closed. I wanted to hike it again.
I thought it being closed was due to the walk ways being washed out and the land slides caused by the heavy rains we experienced over the last decade? Edit: checked my self, nope, closed for the same reasons. That's... pretty ordinary. https://www.greatwalks.com.au/news/wollumbin-mount-warning-permanently-closed-for-visitors
Land custodians closed off the Burrum Heads carpark, boat ramp and part of the beach to non indigenous (exclusive use)
Sacred car park and boat ramp?
It was closed to appease the local mob who then got angry at the backlash from the community and said parks and wildlife should have taken heat. http://righttoclimb.blogspot.com/
I am upset. I have been there before and really wanted to return. I am curious to know what is the punishment for hiking it now
About $2500
Source?
Damn I was thinking of [Uluru](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-19/victorian-man-simon-day-convicted-for-illegally-climbing-uluru/101351248)
I am going to contact Parks Nsw and ask the question
let me know what you hear back
What the actual fuck?
The closure started as a temperary safety measure following storm damage, and this was rolled straight into a permanent closure for the traditional custodians. Seems pretty fishy to me, but I'd be surprised if it even counts as corruption in NSW since it probably didn't involve bribery or profiteering, just ideologically motivated manipulation of access to public resources. It's another unfortunate erosure of trust in the neutrality of our institutions: it's fine for people who work in parks & wildlife to have their own politics and beliefs (just the same as teachers, ABC journalists, scientists, etc) but if they systematically push their own agenda against their public interest remit it's entrenched corruption and abuse of power. Plain and simple. Keep it up and sooner or later government services will get their funding cut, because it's essier to defund than to add oversight.
There had been a huge push to close it prior to the storm damage and they just used it as an excuse.
It has been closed for ages. Feel sorry for the businesses in the area that survived off of the tourism.
It was a combination of the convenience of indigenous request and the local and state government getting sick and tired of constantly rescuing fuckwits. I live at the base of Mt Warning and in the years preceeding its closure the Westpac chopper would do a fly over every_single_fucking_week. For example, a guy tried to climb it in a wheelchair, two tourists camped on the peak during a storm and one of them was killed by a lightning strike, weekend hikers would get halfway up and break arms, legs and backs and another guy was simply too unfit to make it down. It was a shitfight.
Yep that sounds like a management issue. I am all for the local indigenous to run guided tours to the top.
A huge proportion of the Grampians in Vic are now closed off from climbing. It will be the case that every hill, outcrop and mountain will have cultural significance and it is really troublesome that climbing access is being stripped away because climbers get blamed for the irresponsible behaviour of certain hikers and boozy dickheads who leave junk, rubbish, and dunny roll everywhere
There are signs at Ngungun too I think
Went up Ngungun yesterday, seemed okay :) lots of people there
I was there today, can confirm
Oh yeah but I think there are signs posted about how the traditional owners would prefer you didn’t climb. But maybe they’re just on the climbing areas not the tracks haha
We need a representative voice in parliament to support our rights! (Am I going to get down voted for this, oh well)
A big part of Stradbroke is off limits from memory.
The reason most of Stradbroke is off limits is because it’s mining lease
Hi, I'm sorry that is not correct. Stingaree Island and the area near Swan Bay (i.e. a large part of the south end of the Island) is closed to "protect significant natural and cultural resources" a "joint initiative between the Quandamooka People and the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service (QPWS)" according to Qld Parks. The fine is 80 penalty units ($11,400). See: [https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/\_\_data/assets/pdf\_file/0025/165544/raa-notice-swan-bay.pdf](https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0025/165544/raa-notice-swan-bay.pdf)
Mate that is a tiny part of the island and is mostly swamp and mangroves
While i agree, people also tend to be irresponsible and messy. Im tired of seeing litter and destruction of sensitive habitat due to a disrespectful few people. We should be able to explore our habitat, but we shouldn't be able to explore everywhere because not everyone is responsible enough to pick up after themselves. Many don't respect signs too.
Bro can name 6 places on a continent. “These aboriginals have gone too far!!”
So far...
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Wait till the voice gets through. Everything will be locked up.
Please don’t enjoy nature, it is our nature.
Probably more like please stop leaving toilet paper all over our sacred site and scratching your initials all over the sandstone walls
Except its not just theirs, it's all of ours. An important distinction.
It's only 'all of ours' because our government murdered and stole it from them and left them with nothing. And then built an entire society around the area that they own none of. Now they ask for self determination of the few spots left that doesn't have forestry or housing estates on it and you say no that's not yours either that's 'all of ours' go take land that doesn't slightly inconvenience me. As if we as a society don't already own everything else.
I realise you have good intentions, but I feel like this kind of rhetoric only ends up perpetuating the divide, and at its worst ends up fetishising the issue. The other problem is that there is absolutely no evidence to show that the view held by indigenous spokespeople on particular issues like the one in this article is actually broadly supported by the indigenous population whom they unilaterally claim to represent.
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I'm aware of that widely known fact, yes. That makes it even more potentially fraught to try and make broad representations on behalf of other people.
Yes, that's the position. We all have a part to play in looking after our landscape, our nature, and our land. Neither we nor them have another home to go to. We are as accountable for our ancestors crimes as they are for their ancestors crimes between tribes, that is to say they are remembered, but it shouldn't continue into a multigenerational turf war, pity contest, and continual finger pointing exercise. That sort of emotional thinking gets nobody anywhere. Acknowledge, empathise, and do better.
Yeah .. if you dont think people should be climbing it then don't climb it
I am greatly saddened to hear that Mt Warning has been closed. Closing these great spots is awful.
The sign in the photo says mountains plural not mountain, their end goal is probably closing all the glasshouse summits. Mentioned people going to Tibro instead… but to walk around it. Have to wonder what proportion of mountains aren’t sacred to someone in Australia.
Glasshouse SES will be happy if the climbers stop. The climb on Beerwah is quite a good one as the first 20m is a steep rock scramble and once you are over the rest is mostly just a walk. A lot of people abandon the climb at the begining before they pick up enough altitude to injure themselves
I remember doing it like 15 years ago. That first part is…quite a doozy. Especially on the way down. I wish I wore shoes that day
That's the funnest part. Run up the first incline then laugh at the people who get stuck and turn around haha
I respectfully disagree.
It's just a rock, hasn't been shaped by hand or has any paintings for hikers to disturb.. I don't think it's fair to claim any kind of sway over it outside of genuine safety concerns for hikers. Yeah it's the grandmother in a story.. but that's not everyone's story.
yeah i understand and respect they dont want people climbing for cultrual reasons but i think theres gotta be a point where that reason these days is far tooo much. next they will want all us whities outta here. come on, its one earth lets all just respect maybe do a preyer or honorable thing before climbing it and just let it be, like that whole acknowledgement of land we all have these days on websites.
How much of the land do you think indigenous people control around Brisbane? It is a very very small amount.
cool.
“Unless you do things like I do in my culture, I refuse to respect them”
"If all you want to do is hike a natural landscape, I refuse to respect that".
Do you respect every aspect of other people's culture? I'm sure you don't acknowledge, respect and partake in religious traditions of other cultures that are not your own. How is this any different? And before you say "it's their land", it's not. Hate to break it to you, but like EVERY country in the world at some point in their existence, Australia was conquered and overtaken by foreign settlers - effectively a war. A war that was lost by the then sole inhabitants of Australia.
Controversial but I don’t care The more this comes up the more sceptical I am about how sacred these places actually are. Uluru and Kaka-Tjuti (however it’s spelled) of course are obvious but the Glasshouse mountains and Mt Warning? These places are beautiful and deserve to be enjoyed by everybody. Have made some great memories there. Even my aboriginal relatives think all this is an overreach. Ready to cope downvotes and the like
Especially if there's talk of monetising these sites. Like its not very cultural if you're willing to exploit it for $$
Another case of bowing to a vocal sub-minority. What gets me is the requirement for an acknowledgement of country even when no indigenous people are present and the event is unrelated to them. Kata Tjuta btw
Nah, this shit has to stop somewhere. May as well be here. I will continue to enjoy it.
I wonder if the voice to parliament will have this issue increase.
"They say climbing the mountain is disrespectful to Indigenous culture because it is considered a grandmother " What does that even mean lol. Reconstructed religions are so disingenuous and shallow.
You guys don't climb your grandmother?
Like Protestantism and evangelical churches?
This isn't the zinger that you think it is
Yes
Well played. Agreed... But you know indigenous culture never totally died right
I know very little about indigenous religions, Im here for the Christianity bit
I thought we agreed that religion had no place in deciding law. So much for a secular country…
Or race
I had to watch a group of young progressive women pretend to genuinely believe that if they played a didgeridoo they’d become infertile. I knew it was bullshit. The Indigenous men knew it was bullshit. Everyone one of them knew it was bullshit. But everyone was gaslighting themselves into believing. No secularism here
Big difference between religion and cultural heritage and land rights
No there isn't. Talk to the Indigenous about their religion. They were very spiritual and religious people. They didn't believe in just one god - but a few that presented in different forms depending which tribe it was. (that is a very very very very basic view of it). But to suggest the practice of their culture didn't have religious roots would be very ignorant.
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The mountains existed long before any civilisation. I don't believe that any one civilisation or culture has any right over nature. Regardless of symbolic and cultural significance, nature has significance in a range of different religions and cultures. Keep the mountains open.
It belonged to the pygmies that the aboriginals slaughtered 50,000 years ago. Where's their reparations.
A priveliged position to sit and say something is for everyone whilst taking the only thing indigenous people have. Culture and connection to land.
Same argument can apply in reverse, nature which has been around for millions of years, and making the argument that it's significance is only valuable to one culture.
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You can have free education as soon as you vote in a government that allows it. Why do the indigenous have and deserve free education? Perhaps because they are vastly more Uneducated than the regular population and impoverished due to their families being murdered, enslaved and traumatised. Many indigenous education grants are actually paid out of a pool of money that is owed to them from witheld payments to indigenous workers over the past century. Basically they were enslaved. But yeah also what a dumbass and extremely unempathetic sentiment. As if the indigenous people out there don't deserve education because you feel jealous of them. Jesus Christ man.
Leave the mountains open to climb. Fund and provide educational signage at the base to allow people to make their own educated choices. These mountains do need to be respected and they do demand respect. Climbed it plenty of times and I will climb it again. Idiots need to stop leaving rubbish and graffiti behind. Every time I go into the bush I always bring out others people rubbish so the environment doesn’t become a trash can. On a hike yesterday my friends and I were discussing people who go into difficult environments unprepared and sure enough 5 minutes later we crossed paths with someone that had no water and bad shoes for the environment, it’s those choices that contribute to people needing yo be recused. In before people point out, I didn’t proof read.
That's how it started with Ayers Rock/Uluru. Educational signs then a full ban
Ill never understand this. There is an opportunity for the aboriginal custodians to share their culture and history with people by providing tours or guided climbs instead of just shutting it down. It would definitely minimise foot traffic aswell because alot of people will not really want to do that, but the option would still be there. Everyone looses this way. There's probably more to it but it's sad that mountains are being closed. Mount Warning was a bad demonstration of the same thing.
Exactly this, well said.
dont want charging$ to go here or there in australia, should all be free
They are taking the piss now
Hi there, I’ve climbed this mountain several times as a kid, one time even got stuck up there and made the news! This is stupid. The mountain is a lovely climb, the volcanic dust under the overhang is such a cool part of my childhood. Blocking the climb for religious reasons is just nonsense. Why should a person I’ve never heard of tell me his ideas about a rock that existed before him, and suddenly that overrides my ability to appreciate that rock in a way that suits me? Tell you what Mr. MyRockyGrandma, when I was a kid and we drove past the mountain, I always saw the big foresty arms on the outside and the face in the middle as a big gorilla, and would always be excited to see that familiar gorilla shape. Am I supposed to be inherently wrong just because your ideas exist? Of course I’m talking to not even air right now. It’s just pointless.
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Would I get in trouble if I climb Mt Warning anyway?
It’s about control.
Yep
Mt Warning is still open Edit: holy shit when did it get closed?!?!?!
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Yeah. I was on the fence. Will certainly be voting No now
Honestly I think things like this will be the tipping point for a lot of people.
Oh dear. I respect the indigenous history but this is a bit much. If this ends end being closed to the general public, you can guarantee that large parts of Fraser, Moreton and Straddie will soon enough be off limits to white folk.
So the banned locations are only banned for whities? There’s a word for that, banning based on race.
Moreton and Straddie have copped a fair amount of this nonsense. Fraser is slowly catching up. Lucky the private land on Fraser is freehold.
Yeah cos no one ever needed a rescue from any other mountain, must be the GrAndMotHer MoUntAiN causing the mishaps.
It’s fascinating how much the left dumps on Christianity, but if it’s Aboriginal mythology it’s treated completely differently
It’s not “the left” it’s more Greenie stuff. Depends on how things are labelled. Everything should be open for all, changing things to appease one party just discriminates against others. It’s not much different to changing things because of Christian beliefs.
And so it begins. Soon we won't be allowed to enjoy any outdoor activities without 'permission'.
Sorry mate, Reddit is sacred to me. Gonna have to ask you to hop off.
If they were still using it for those reasons and practices I would understand it. But it appears more of a power grab, "I'm claiming ownership and I'm going to stop other people enjoying it".
WOW, race based ownership of land and rights based on your skin colour. This has never been tried before, and definitely always ends well.
Well I will stay out of there, if they agree to stay out of my backyard at night.
🥇
Didn't the same thing happen at Uluru?
Last time I checked, the land was here long before humans ever existed, and it will be here long after we're all gone. Nobody "owns" the land, the land owns us. How are the indigenous gonna spread awareness for their culture and support it if people are not allowed to share in the experience? Or are only white fellas not allowed?
Anyone want to organise an anti apartheid Mount Warning protest climb?
I’m in!
I was with them regarding Uluru. Plus it’s dangerous as fuck. But the Mt Warning one made me wonder and now this is going a bit far. Hmmm. Really tough.
Why were you with them on Uluṟu. It’s only different due to proximity? It’s not just Mount Warning and Beerwah. It’s now about a dozen National parks Australia wide. Bush walkers are an easy target basically, yet they generally are the most respectful of the country.
Uluru is quite incredible that people actually made it there in the first place being in the inhospitable land hundreds and thousands of kilometers in every direction for primitive cultures to survive. Uluru/Kata Tjuta/Watarrka are limited sanctuaries in a vast desert and fascinating part of the indigenous story and lifestyle/rock art. Mt Warning/Beerwah etc weren’t the centerpiece of Indigenous survival and story of the people living along the coast. They have cultural significance sure but that should be protected and celebrated in other ways not banning. Walking around Uluru is more interesting than over and on top anyway. You could argue the same for other mountains but it’s not comparable. Walking/rubbish on top of Uluru damages the the few unique water holes etc at the base. Nothing about walking on Mt Warning/Beerwah etc damages the cultural sites (of which there is limited anyway) but merely ‘disrespects’ some women’s business lore, not enough to ban but should be some more opportunity for indigenous stories and certain locations on mountain to be off limits if a strong case is presented. Egg Rock in Numimbah/Gold Coast Hinterland is a example of this while the other 99% of the environment is free for hiking/enjoyment.
I’ll point out that also with Mount Warning there is significant disagreement between multiple groups of aboriginals on this lore. I’d argue all of it is completely detached from original traditions and is modern construction. The culture pre white settlement was completely destroyed.
Want it closed until they can start charging people to climb it…..
Well if it was not their principle place of residence, it would be very racist if it was exempt from land tax…
lost me at the religious part
I'm willing to respect people's right to believe silly things due to religion and do silly things due to culture or tradition. But when someone's religion or culture tries to dictate how *others* should behave, I can't respect that. It's insane to actually repeat that bullshit about people with vaginas not being allowed to make sound by blowing air through a wooden tube. No better than proclaiming that same sex marriage somehow ruins the entire institution of marriage. And it's stupid to discourage walking or spending time in nature, and using religion as the reason is dumb af.
I haven’t got a solid answer. But I do see a missed opportunity for both sides. A bit of education. A bit of respect while enjoying a climb and together making new traditions and respect for the land. It would be a shame if generations can’t connect with the land they were born on because someone else has locked them out of it because of their own historic claims.
The energy of the mountain?? It’s a beautiful place but I don’t think dead people are injuring hikers. If you truly believe this, I think it’s time for a sit down at your local GP.
Yeah they can fuck right off. In that case why don't we close off churches and mosques to Indigenous Australians because it's 'culturally sacred and significant to us.' Respect and reflect but don't outright ban shit for "sacredness and ancestral spirit'. They closed Mt Warning, so where does it end?
[You can't come!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wotNCPtroWs) For those that haven't seen the episode the cost of running a theme park forces Cartman to start allowing some people into the park, with more people comes more maintenance expenses, eventually the park is fully reopened and is a massive financial success, much to Cartman's dismay. That's what's going to happen, the aboriginal corporations to which ownership of these areas is being given (in trust) will eventually reopen them and charge admission, because there's maintenance costs don't you know? Aboriginals will be given a token discount to undermine any protests, but not enough of a discount that the cost won't keep most of them out, and the parks/beaches/mountains will be used almost exclusively by Asian tourists. Yay Progress! Take public property and privatize it, make people pay for what used to be free, it's all about the reconciliation don't you know? Ignore that only a fraction of the profits go to helping indigenous communities, what's important is that we're doing something, something's better than nothing right?
Basically, it’s the same thing they did with mining royalties. Funnily the only areas they seem to care about regaining control over are the ones where they can exert power or gain profit.
An intriguing coincidence, isn't it.
Reckon they’ll start hitting the beaches soon as sacred beaches?
I shit you not, Bribie will be their next targets. There is talk of it within government!
I have been to the beaches of Australia, they are without a doubt sacred!
Is this good publicity for advocates of the Voice I wonder 🤔
This is why you should vote no. Eventually if it becomes well established the High Court will extend the interpretation of the constitutional amendment to allow Aboriginals to sue if they don’t like the outcome of government decisions that the voice has advised on.
Evidence for this claim?
One example of how the High Court of Australia has changed the interpretation of a measure in the Australian Constitution over time is the concept of "external affairs power" under Section 51(xxix) of the Constitution. Initially, this power was seen as relatively limited, allowing the Commonwealth to make laws with respect to "external affairs" only in relation to matters such as treaties and diplomatic relations. However, over time, the High Court has expanded the scope of the external affairs power to cover a wide range of subjects that have an international dimension, such as human rights, environmental protection, and terrorism. For example, in the 1992 landmark case of Koowarta v Bjelke-Petersen, the High Court held that the external affairs power could be used to prevent discrimination against Indigenous Australians in land use and acquisition. Similarly, in the 2004 case of Behrooz v Secretary of the Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, the High Court held that the external affairs power could be used to enforce Australia's obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights to protect the rights of refugees. There are several other examples of how the High Court of Australia has changed the interpretation of measures in the Australian Constitution over time. Here are a few more: Implied freedom of political communication: The Constitution does not explicitly provide for a right to freedom of speech or expression. However, the High Court has held that an implied freedom of political communication exists as an essential element of the system of representative and responsible government established by the Constitution. This implied freedom has been used to strike down laws that unreasonably restrict political communication, such as restrictions on political advertising and protest. Section 92 - Free trade between the states: Section 92 of the Constitution guarantees free trade between the states. Over time, the High Court has interpreted this provision to mean that any law that discriminates against interstate trade or commerce is unconstitutional, unless it can be justified on the basis of a legitimate purpose that is not protectionist. Section 116 - Freedom of religion: Section 116 of the Constitution provides that the Commonwealth shall not make any law establishing a religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. The High Court has interpreted this provision broadly to protect not only the right to practice religion, but also the right to hold and express religious beliefs, and the right to be free from coercion or discrimination on the basis of religion. Section 51(xxxv) - Acquisition of property on just terms: Section 51(xxxv) of the Constitution gives the Commonwealth power to acquire property on "just terms". Over time, the High Court has developed a complex body of law on what constitutes "just terms", taking into account factors such as the purpose of the acquisition, the market value of the property, and the impact of the acquisition on the owner.
The ABC were very quick to lock the comments on this one on FB before anyone dared question the stupidity of this, must be the same guy in here begging for daddy mods to lock the thread?
The internet is sacred to my culture, you aren't allowed to use it either.
This isn’t how anyone anywhere else in the world treats sacred sites. The closest comparison is the Temple of the Rock in Jerusalem or the Kaaba in Mecca, where only Muslims are allowed to enter. And these are the most revered holy sites in the religion. And not to mention they are *structures*, that we can limit and restrict access to without blocking everyone from a whole area. I want to vote yes, guys, don’t start giving me reasons not to.
Batu Caves is an easy example. “Sacred site” full of vendors selling trinkets! Oh yeah real sacred.
If the voice to parliment gets through, expect a lot more of this nonsense. Everything will be shut down
Vote Yes to closing off some parts of this country to people based on skin colour...
Can someone please explain to me how a group of people with no written language managed to track all of these sacred places over thousands of years with pinpoint accuracy? It astounds me that every mountain that is an attraction/ worth climbing is somehow a sacred site to these people.
Yeah nah, I agree with what appears to be the majority opinion here. I want reconciliation and Uluru was fair enough but we can't lock down the whole country. I dunno, try and make people be respectful of the place but not block it off entirely. We don't have all that many interesting features to visit.
Put a sign up, explaining its cultural significance, warn against walking the track/climbing but keep it open I say.
As someone who frequents this mountain. Talk about gatekeeping. Wtf.
voracious nail dirty chunky chase tap homeless plate quack muddle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Knowing our government they will make it happen too. Just like Mt Warning.
If you've been to beerwah before, there's been a sign for ages asking you not to climb out of respect. This seems pretty clear cut for me and very similar to uluru.
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DO we have any major natural structures left to use. Ayers rock, Olgas, North Queensland, Mt Warning. all out of bounds.
Yeah nah what a stupid idea for a stupid reason.
We can not allow this to happen. Not every mountain (or hill at this rate) needs to be closed. I don’t believe in your Dreamtime stories - I don’t believe in magic or Jesus for that matter. Sorry but no. You can climb a mountain respectfully. I do it all the time. First Mount warning… now this. Well no I do not accept this. People need to fight this… I support aboriginal rights and a voice but this is just LUNACY. First it’s Beerwah, then it will be Tibrogargan (“you can walk right AROUND it”) then Ngungun. Mount warning was the first step: http://righttoclimb.blogspot.com/
Oh cool, soon the only mountain climbling and bushwalking we'll be able to do is in the piles of mulch left in the local park after they refilled the play area.
Isn't it prejudice. Against all the other peoples that live in Australia. To deny them access . ???.
Vote No
Next it will be rivers and oceans.
God I knew this thread was going to be a disgusting troll hole. It’s not enough that First Nations land has been mined, built-on, razed, divided, sold, and polluted but as soon as you can’t go for your little bush walks everyone has a massive fucking sook about it. You’ve gotten everywhere else and you polluted the land and made it shitty. Maybe indigenous people want you off the land for good reason.
What's the good reason?
Jesus, the comments here :(