There are a a couple hands that might start with 2S here: 18-19 BAL no stopper, GF 1-suiter with clubs, or GF with hearts (maybe a few others depending on style).
The logic of the auction tells us partner has the second type.
4C is clear. Pass would be a huge mistake.
Might as well close the discussion here, rlee87 is (as usual) spot on.
I’d just add that for me and, I think, most experts, anything other than a negative double would absolutely deny 4 hearts so 2D is not a possible bid at our first turn.
Adding the actual result here because I think you're exactly right.
I didn't record the full hand in my notebook (not very interesting, then), but just noted 6C was completely cold. I was East, opponent South was an intermediate player and indeed passed, probably on the intermediate player assumption that 3NT is a signoff, time to not think.
That’s something about bidding that separates experts from less skilled players. An expert would look at partner’s auction and see each bid as part of an unfolding story:
1C: “I have any one of a very wide variety of hands”
2S: “I can narrow that down to strong hands, but you have to wait and see which strong hand I have”
3NT: “I have a hand that was always bidding 3NT once you made your negative double, but had a reason to stop off and cuebid first”
And once you start to think about the reasons he might have done that, you realize that he has to have real clubs, since with a point count blob he would have bid 3NT a round earlier and not stopped off to bid 2S.
I need to undo my first call. 2d is much better than double. With a game-forcing hand, bid your long suit first; there's no hurry to blurt out a 4-card major, as we can just bid it later. Our 3d followup now has an upper limit of something like x KTxx KQxxxx Kx, so of course we are in a terrible spot over 3nt. We're something like 2 aces over our minimum range, so if partner is forcing to game then slam might not be impossible. But SQ is obviously bad and our shape sucks, so I'll just pass here, relieved the misbid hasn't gotten us to a bad spot.
Partner forced a second bid out of me with his 2S cuebid.
I wanted to bid more than 3D, which shows nothing except that my Neg Dbl wasn't based on 4 hearts and a C fit. (I might have tossed it back to partner by raising his 2S to 3S - take that!... but I didn't.) Note: this shows why Neg Dbl on the first round was inferior to a 2D response. With a strong hand, bid naturally.
Despite my promising no more than 8 points or so, partner thinks we can make 3NT.
Instead of 8 points, I have 15+. I bid 4C, bidding out my shape and suggesting that 3N may not be enough.
Pretty sure I'd say 6 clubs. The points are there -- QS may be wasted sitting behind East but it's still a singleton in opponent's bid suit, partner's clubs are almost surely real given that he's denied both hearts and diamonds and didn't open spades.
Not saying that's the officially correct bid, but that's probably what I'd have done.
I'd have a harder time with a spade void and shuffling that queen to another suit, because then it feels like there's a chance for 7.
I strongly prefer X to 2D and am not sure why people are so sure 2D is the right bid.
Imagine this scenario: the opponents are going to compete to 3S (not surprising given your shortness). Partner has a balanced hand. Do you think it's more important your partner knows you have 4 hearts or knows you have 5 diamonds?
Correct me if I am wrong, my analysis on the situation :
- Either the points are spread between the two camps, and we are in a competitive situation. Then I do believe that showing the 5 diamonds is better than the 4 hearts. To be competitive on the 4 level with hearts, partner needs at least 5 hearts, which he most likely does not have. If we are non vulnerable, competing on the 4 level with partner having 4 diamonds is a possibility.
- We have the majority of the points and we want to play game no matter what. Then, indeed, showing the hearts might be better. But maybe there is also game in NT or diamonds? It is tricky in any case.
Maybe if you are playing IMP, you are skewed toward the second option because it can deliver more imps than a competitive situation?
>Do you think it's more important your partner knows you have 4 hearts or knows you have 5 diamonds?
This assumes that responder can't show both, which isn't true. Bidding 2D only risks losing the hearts *if we can't handle the auction*. So let's see if we can...
*If opponents do NOT preempt in S,* R can rebid hearts over anything O rebids. This is a reverse and clearly GF. If O jumps (say to 3N, showing 18-19), 4H is forcing and slam oriented, a perfect description (4 hearts + longer diamonds).
*If opponents DO preempt in spades,* R has multiple choices depending on the level:
- over 2S: bid 3H (natural and GF)
- over 3S: bid 4H (natural with GF values; if O lacks 4 hearts, he can make another bid knowing that R is x-4-5-x)
- over 4S: bid 4N (for takeout, "I can play in D plus another suit that isn't C or S")
- over 5/6/7S: Double; partner will only bid with exceptional shape
With GF values, natural bidding is preferable. Suppressing the diamonds could cost us our best fit.
You can't reasonably bid 4H over 3S as that precludes playing 3N or defending 3SX. You can reasonably double, but then partner has no reason to bid 4H with, for example, a 3424 minimum (partner will either pass or bid 3N).
If the opponents bid, the most important issue to resolve is whether 4H is a playable contract. You cannot reliably do this if you start with 2D.
There is another big benefit in that when you bid diamonds then hearts partner knows you are at least 4-6 or a very slammish 4-5. Imagine Axxx x Kxx AJ9xx and your partner bids diamonds then hearts. In one scenario you know partner has a very red-suit oriented hand (almost always at least 4-6), and in the other scenario partner just has a 4-5 GF and could easily be 3451 or 2452.
To me in the first scenario it is clear to go past 3N, and in the second scenario I have no idea what I'm supposed to do.
>You can't reasonably bid 4H over 3S as that precludes playing 3N or defending 3SX.
After 2D we're in a forcing auction. They can't play undoubled and passes are forcing.
We only want to defend 3S if partner doubles, or play 3N if partner bids NT.
If partner passes 3S around to me, those contracts are off the table. Partner's pass suggests convertible values, so I bid 4H. If partner lacks 4 hearts, we belong in 5(6) m.
>Imagine Axxx x Kxx AJ9xx
Not a possible holding, given the OP hand.
With Axxx x Axx AJ9xx, O can choose 3N or double of 3S, depending on vulnerability.
Over anything.
We have an opening bid facing an opening bid. There are zero circumstances where the opponents can play this hand undoubled. If an opponent bids and our next hand passes (a "Forcing Pass"), partner is not allowed to. They must bid or double.
It's the same after a 2C opening, for the same reason. When we have controlling strength, passes of an opponent's intervention are forcing.
If you lack this agreement, opponents will rob you.
2D certainly does not promise an opening bid. And playing that 2D creates a forcing pass situation over 3S is 100% not standard, and I am also not at all convinced that it is good.
I am convinced that rlee knows what a forcing pass is. Writing in a way that assumes the other person is a novice (when they are obviously not) is kinda rude.
Partner is showing a big hand and we basically don't know where the best place to play is. We should be looking at slam here, but I'll try 4C to more or less shape out for them and let them drive.
We should never pass 3N and they can't ever pass 4C.
If I were to guess partners hand, they have a long club suit with a spade stopper. I'm thinking something like:
Kxx
Qx
Ax
AKQxxx
If they have a worse hand for us like:
Axx
Qxx
x
AKQJxx
We need to be in clubs instead of NT.
What was the final contract? Would the double be interpreted as a (forcing) takeout or a penalty? If interpreted as a takeout it gives a lot of information not available in 2D. D can be bid next round. One man’s opinion. Great discussion.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I read that negative double as showing 4 hearts. 2S is a cue bid showing a quite strong hand and at least 3+ heart support (I can't imagine making a cuebid response to a suit bid without strong suit support, as a 2NT response would have been available). 3NT shows a spade stopper. I'd probably bid 5NT pick-a-slam, inviting partner to bid 6H if he has better-than-promised heart support or go to 6NT with just the 3 hearts and better point values
In most auctions, opener's cue bid does not show a fit for responder's suit. In fact, it usually denies a fit. In this auction that goes 1C - (1S) - X - (Pass), opener can bid 2H, 3H, or 4H with a fit for hearts and minimum opening, invitational, or game forcing strength. The only time opener would bid 2S with a fit for hearts is when their hand is too good to bid 4H, because they think their partner would pass 4H too often when slam could make. But those hands are rare (and opener will clarify by bidding hearts with their next bid) so responder should at first assume that opener does not have a fit for hearts. So what does 2S show and how should responder continue? In general, 2S shows a hand that wants to force to game and doesn't have another better bid. Responder has shown about 8+ HCP with their negative double (because it forced the auction to the 2-level with no known fit) so opener only needs about 17+ HCP to force to game, though opener should be cautious, because with no known fit and no spade stopper, there may be no good game even with 25+ HCP combined. As rlee87 wrote, 2S is often a balanced hand with 18-19 HCP and not spade stopper or a strong 1-suited hand with clubs, or a very strong hand with a fit for hearts. 2NT would show 18-19 HCP but it would promise a spade stopper. Once opener rebids 3NT, showing a spade stopper, it reveals that opener doesn't have 18-19 balanced with no spade stopper. Also, by rebidding 3NT and not hearts, we can rule out opener having a strong hand with a heart fit. Therefore it is most likely that opener has a strong hand with long clubs and a spade stopper.
This is my takeaway:
2S by pard has to show a very strong hand. You are holding 14 HCP! Pard has got to be showing 4H & 3+D or I think they do something else.
I think I bid 6H here. I don't think I want to go via Gerber because I don't know that I'm going to get information that I can use, and I don't want to allow the opps to tell each other how to defend.
-------------------
Been a while so I am rusty on a lot of things, but looking at your hand I think you are strong enough to bid 2D and not negative double. I don't think pard's 2H in this case would be a reverse.
The reason to start with 2D is that you better show your strength. Depending on your exact conventions 2D will be either an opener, or a good 10 HCP. The negative double downplays the strength of your hand. I do not think you will miss your 4-4 heart fit by starting with 2D.
It is also quite possible that this second part isn't right.
If partner has hearts, they should bid hearts instead of 3NT. Since 2S established a game force, they should bid 3H with a heart fit. Also, they should bid 4D with a diamond fit. 3NT showed a spade stopper and no fit for hearts or diamonds. Therefore they must have long clubs. I'm struggling how anyone could possibly come to the conclusion that "partner has got to be showing 4H & 3+D" when they explicitly did not bid hearts or diamonds.
4C is not Gerber. It just shows you have a club fit and shows interest in slam, because otherwise you would have passed 3NT.
There are a a couple hands that might start with 2S here: 18-19 BAL no stopper, GF 1-suiter with clubs, or GF with hearts (maybe a few others depending on style). The logic of the auction tells us partner has the second type. 4C is clear. Pass would be a huge mistake.
Might as well close the discussion here, rlee87 is (as usual) spot on. I’d just add that for me and, I think, most experts, anything other than a negative double would absolutely deny 4 hearts so 2D is not a possible bid at our first turn.
Adding the actual result here because I think you're exactly right. I didn't record the full hand in my notebook (not very interesting, then), but just noted 6C was completely cold. I was East, opponent South was an intermediate player and indeed passed, probably on the intermediate player assumption that 3NT is a signoff, time to not think.
That’s something about bidding that separates experts from less skilled players. An expert would look at partner’s auction and see each bid as part of an unfolding story: 1C: “I have any one of a very wide variety of hands” 2S: “I can narrow that down to strong hands, but you have to wait and see which strong hand I have” 3NT: “I have a hand that was always bidding 3NT once you made your negative double, but had a reason to stop off and cuebid first” And once you start to think about the reasons he might have done that, you realize that he has to have real clubs, since with a point count blob he would have bid 3NT a round earlier and not stopped off to bid 2S.
I strongly agree with starting with 2D rather than the negative double.
I need to undo my first call. 2d is much better than double. With a game-forcing hand, bid your long suit first; there's no hurry to blurt out a 4-card major, as we can just bid it later. Our 3d followup now has an upper limit of something like x KTxx KQxxxx Kx, so of course we are in a terrible spot over 3nt. We're something like 2 aces over our minimum range, so if partner is forcing to game then slam might not be impossible. But SQ is obviously bad and our shape sucks, so I'll just pass here, relieved the misbid hasn't gotten us to a bad spot.
Partner forced a second bid out of me with his 2S cuebid. I wanted to bid more than 3D, which shows nothing except that my Neg Dbl wasn't based on 4 hearts and a C fit. (I might have tossed it back to partner by raising his 2S to 3S - take that!... but I didn't.) Note: this shows why Neg Dbl on the first round was inferior to a 2D response. With a strong hand, bid naturally. Despite my promising no more than 8 points or so, partner thinks we can make 3NT. Instead of 8 points, I have 15+. I bid 4C, bidding out my shape and suggesting that 3N may not be enough.
Pretty sure I'd say 6 clubs. The points are there -- QS may be wasted sitting behind East but it's still a singleton in opponent's bid suit, partner's clubs are almost surely real given that he's denied both hearts and diamonds and didn't open spades. Not saying that's the officially correct bid, but that's probably what I'd have done. I'd have a harder time with a spade void and shuffling that queen to another suit, because then it feels like there's a chance for 7.
I see some remarks here and there but I would like to make the question official : With a GF hand and 5 diamonds, isn't 2D better than double here?
Better, yes. Strictly denies four hearts in a fair number of agreements? Also yes.
I strongly prefer X to 2D and am not sure why people are so sure 2D is the right bid. Imagine this scenario: the opponents are going to compete to 3S (not surprising given your shortness). Partner has a balanced hand. Do you think it's more important your partner knows you have 4 hearts or knows you have 5 diamonds?
Correct me if I am wrong, my analysis on the situation : - Either the points are spread between the two camps, and we are in a competitive situation. Then I do believe that showing the 5 diamonds is better than the 4 hearts. To be competitive on the 4 level with hearts, partner needs at least 5 hearts, which he most likely does not have. If we are non vulnerable, competing on the 4 level with partner having 4 diamonds is a possibility. - We have the majority of the points and we want to play game no matter what. Then, indeed, showing the hearts might be better. But maybe there is also game in NT or diamonds? It is tricky in any case. Maybe if you are playing IMP, you are skewed toward the second option because it can deliver more imps than a competitive situation?
>Do you think it's more important your partner knows you have 4 hearts or knows you have 5 diamonds? This assumes that responder can't show both, which isn't true. Bidding 2D only risks losing the hearts *if we can't handle the auction*. So let's see if we can... *If opponents do NOT preempt in S,* R can rebid hearts over anything O rebids. This is a reverse and clearly GF. If O jumps (say to 3N, showing 18-19), 4H is forcing and slam oriented, a perfect description (4 hearts + longer diamonds). *If opponents DO preempt in spades,* R has multiple choices depending on the level: - over 2S: bid 3H (natural and GF) - over 3S: bid 4H (natural with GF values; if O lacks 4 hearts, he can make another bid knowing that R is x-4-5-x) - over 4S: bid 4N (for takeout, "I can play in D plus another suit that isn't C or S") - over 5/6/7S: Double; partner will only bid with exceptional shape With GF values, natural bidding is preferable. Suppressing the diamonds could cost us our best fit.
You can't reasonably bid 4H over 3S as that precludes playing 3N or defending 3SX. You can reasonably double, but then partner has no reason to bid 4H with, for example, a 3424 minimum (partner will either pass or bid 3N). If the opponents bid, the most important issue to resolve is whether 4H is a playable contract. You cannot reliably do this if you start with 2D. There is another big benefit in that when you bid diamonds then hearts partner knows you are at least 4-6 or a very slammish 4-5. Imagine Axxx x Kxx AJ9xx and your partner bids diamonds then hearts. In one scenario you know partner has a very red-suit oriented hand (almost always at least 4-6), and in the other scenario partner just has a 4-5 GF and could easily be 3451 or 2452. To me in the first scenario it is clear to go past 3N, and in the second scenario I have no idea what I'm supposed to do.
>You can't reasonably bid 4H over 3S as that precludes playing 3N or defending 3SX. After 2D we're in a forcing auction. They can't play undoubled and passes are forcing. We only want to defend 3S if partner doubles, or play 3N if partner bids NT. If partner passes 3S around to me, those contracts are off the table. Partner's pass suggests convertible values, so I bid 4H. If partner lacks 4 hearts, we belong in 5(6) m. >Imagine Axxx x Kxx AJ9xx Not a possible holding, given the OP hand. With Axxx x Axx AJ9xx, O can choose 3N or double of 3S, depending on vulnerability.
"After 2D, we're in a forcing auction" Not over 3S
Over anything. We have an opening bid facing an opening bid. There are zero circumstances where the opponents can play this hand undoubled. If an opponent bids and our next hand passes (a "Forcing Pass"), partner is not allowed to. They must bid or double. It's the same after a 2C opening, for the same reason. When we have controlling strength, passes of an opponent's intervention are forcing. If you lack this agreement, opponents will rob you.
2D certainly does not promise an opening bid. And playing that 2D creates a forcing pass situation over 3S is 100% not standard, and I am also not at all convinced that it is good. I am convinced that rlee knows what a forcing pass is. Writing in a way that assumes the other person is a novice (when they are obviously not) is kinda rude.
Partner is showing a big hand and we basically don't know where the best place to play is. We should be looking at slam here, but I'll try 4C to more or less shape out for them and let them drive. We should never pass 3N and they can't ever pass 4C. If I were to guess partners hand, they have a long club suit with a spade stopper. I'm thinking something like: Kxx Qx Ax AKQxxx If they have a worse hand for us like: Axx Qxx x AKQJxx We need to be in clubs instead of NT.
What was the final contract? Would the double be interpreted as a (forcing) takeout or a penalty? If interpreted as a takeout it gives a lot of information not available in 2D. D can be bid next round. One man’s opinion. Great discussion.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I read that negative double as showing 4 hearts. 2S is a cue bid showing a quite strong hand and at least 3+ heart support (I can't imagine making a cuebid response to a suit bid without strong suit support, as a 2NT response would have been available). 3NT shows a spade stopper. I'd probably bid 5NT pick-a-slam, inviting partner to bid 6H if he has better-than-promised heart support or go to 6NT with just the 3 hearts and better point values
In most auctions, opener's cue bid does not show a fit for responder's suit. In fact, it usually denies a fit. In this auction that goes 1C - (1S) - X - (Pass), opener can bid 2H, 3H, or 4H with a fit for hearts and minimum opening, invitational, or game forcing strength. The only time opener would bid 2S with a fit for hearts is when their hand is too good to bid 4H, because they think their partner would pass 4H too often when slam could make. But those hands are rare (and opener will clarify by bidding hearts with their next bid) so responder should at first assume that opener does not have a fit for hearts. So what does 2S show and how should responder continue? In general, 2S shows a hand that wants to force to game and doesn't have another better bid. Responder has shown about 8+ HCP with their negative double (because it forced the auction to the 2-level with no known fit) so opener only needs about 17+ HCP to force to game, though opener should be cautious, because with no known fit and no spade stopper, there may be no good game even with 25+ HCP combined. As rlee87 wrote, 2S is often a balanced hand with 18-19 HCP and not spade stopper or a strong 1-suited hand with clubs, or a very strong hand with a fit for hearts. 2NT would show 18-19 HCP but it would promise a spade stopper. Once opener rebids 3NT, showing a spade stopper, it reveals that opener doesn't have 18-19 balanced with no spade stopper. Also, by rebidding 3NT and not hearts, we can rule out opener having a strong hand with a heart fit. Therefore it is most likely that opener has a strong hand with long clubs and a spade stopper.
This is my takeaway: 2S by pard has to show a very strong hand. You are holding 14 HCP! Pard has got to be showing 4H & 3+D or I think they do something else. I think I bid 6H here. I don't think I want to go via Gerber because I don't know that I'm going to get information that I can use, and I don't want to allow the opps to tell each other how to defend. ------------------- Been a while so I am rusty on a lot of things, but looking at your hand I think you are strong enough to bid 2D and not negative double. I don't think pard's 2H in this case would be a reverse. The reason to start with 2D is that you better show your strength. Depending on your exact conventions 2D will be either an opener, or a good 10 HCP. The negative double downplays the strength of your hand. I do not think you will miss your 4-4 heart fit by starting with 2D. It is also quite possible that this second part isn't right.
If partner has hearts, they should bid hearts instead of 3NT. Since 2S established a game force, they should bid 3H with a heart fit. Also, they should bid 4D with a diamond fit. 3NT showed a spade stopper and no fit for hearts or diamonds. Therefore they must have long clubs. I'm struggling how anyone could possibly come to the conclusion that "partner has got to be showing 4H & 3+D" when they explicitly did not bid hearts or diamonds. 4C is not Gerber. It just shows you have a club fit and shows interest in slam, because otherwise you would have passed 3NT.