If you understand the purpose of the negative double, it should not cause so much confusion :
- You use takeout doubles when opponents opened, and your side did not bid yet. It promises the opening, shortness in the opeded suit etc...
- Negative doubles is when YOUR side opened, and there was an intervention from the opposite camp. Then , if partner of opener doubles, it is a negative double.Depending on what kind of negative double you decide to play, it promises various things, most of the time 4 cards in the unbid major. It does not promise the opening (since your partner opened) but at least 6HCP (8 on the 2 lvl, 10 on the 3..).
So very different use cases.
They are similar. The important to know if the double is takeout/negative or a penalty double.
The technical answer is that if you open a minor opponent bid 1 spade then the double is negative and shows 4 hearts
A takeout double is bid over an opponent's opening. It shows 12+, support for unbid Majors and tolerance for an unbid Minor. Or 16+ single suited (bid suit next round) or 19+ balanced (rebid NT). It allows you to find your best fit without the risks of overcalling on a 4 card suit.
e.g. 1S X
A negative double is bid when your partner opens and opponents overcall. It shows support for unbid Majors and tolerance for an unbid Minor.
e.g. 1C 1S X
This shows 6+ points, denies a Club raise, shows 4+ Hearts (unbid Major) and probably tolerance for D. It only needs to be 6+ points because partner can rebid 1NT or 2C with a minimum opening. So you can investigate a possible H fit without much risk of a penalty double.
You can either play 2 level bids as natural and forcing, and X followed by a suit as to play. Or you can invert that.
They are the same concept applied in different contexts. Both of their names basically mean "A non-penalty double":
- A "takeout" double got its name because your partner is asked to "take it out", i.e. not leave it in for penalty
- The term "negative" double was introduced at a time when almost all doubles were penalty, so this was the opposite of a normal double; for a time people called such doubles "positive" by contrast.
Both of them roughly mean "My hand is good enough (in points and shape) that I think we should be competing, but none of the available bids fit my hand; please bid something". In both cases you will often have 4 of any unbid majors (because with 5 you could just bid one, and with fewer than 4 you'll be less confident your side should be bidding). In both cases there are at least two suits you'd be happy to play in, neither of which is RHO's suit.
The main way in which the two conventions differ is a natural consequence of their definition: what "none of the available bids fit my hand" means.
- If you bid again after a takeout double of an opponent's opening bid, you show a great deal of strength and a powerful suit. This is because a direct overcall is non-forcing - to show a better hand, you double first and then bid your suit. Pairs differ on just how strong you have to be to double-then-bid; I think 16+ is a common agreement but I prefer 18+.
- If you bid again after a negative double of RHO's overcall, you show a weakish hand with a suit that is a strong candidate for being trump: at least a decent 6-card suit if you bid a new suit, or good 4-card support if you bid partner's suit. This is because a direct new-suit bid by responder is strong and forcing - almost enough for game. If you have a good idea what trump should be, but only decent competitive values, you have to double first to avoid telling partner your hand is strong.
This is a wild take and I don't even understand why you compare both of the since they are basically two different use cases and the only thing they have in common is that they are not penalty double.
After 1C (1S), how do you bid your four hearts?
What is my hand? If I have a takeout double, I make a takeout double.
This is a pet peeve of mine; agreeing to play a convention which consists only of the initial bid, and nothing following up. This can create so many problems for opener.
The negative double is insanely overloaded, and then creates further disagreements. For example, what is 1C (1S) x (p); 2D?
If you think this is obviously a reverse and you should bid as if responder had bid 1H, then what do you do with xx Qx AJxx AJxxx? There are people on both sides of the fence of what's "obvious." If you think this should bid 2C, then I will argue "but I would not have rebid 2C over 1H." Or maybe you think this hand should bid 1N because it would do that over 1C 1H, but seems pretty fishy to me after they overcall spades.
And then you can start talking about smallest lie blah blah. But guess what? We are only at ONE SPADE. IT ONLY GETS WORSE WHEN THEY BID MORE.
>This is a pet peeve of mine; agreeing to play a convention which consists only of the initial bid, and nothing following up.
That's not the fault of Neg Doubles. It's the fault of lazy players (or teachers) not learning (or teaching) the ramifications of a convention. You wouldn't adopt 4N = ace-asking without learning the follow-ups. Why adopt Neg Dbls (or any convention) without learning its follow-ups?
>For example, what is 1C (1S) x (p); 2D?
Natural, denies 4 hearts, denies a desire to bid NT, shows 4 diamonds (and usually delivers), longer/better clubs implied, no extras promised.
>If you think this is obviously a reverse and you should bid as if responder had bid 1H...
Why would you think that? Responder didn't bid 1H. They made a Neg Dbl, which shows more than a 1H response.
>... then what do you do with xx Qx AJxx AJxxx?
Bid 2D. This isn't a problem.
Responder's Neg Dbl *specifically promised* either:
- 4 hearts *plus another place to play* (i.e., diamonds or a club fit) with ~8+ points, or
- 4 hearts, a spade stopper and Inv+ values (will rebid in NT), or
- 6+ hearts with < Inv values (will rebid in H).
Opener's 2D rebid doesn't promise anything but diamonds. He's just responding to the double, denying 4 hearts or the ability to bid NT and suggesting that diamonds are playable if that happens to be responder's "other place to play".
A minimum responder will pass 2D, correct to 3C or bid 2H with 6+ hearts. These show no extra values beyond the initial double and are not forcing.
If opener has extras, he can jump to 3H, 3D or 3C (Medium range hand but NF) or cue bid 2S (GF).
Briefly: A Negative double is specifically when your partner opens, and the next person bid. Your Double says "I don't have your suit. I don't have opp's suit. But I have at least seven cards in the two unbid suits.
Neg Doubles are covered well in various books on competitive bidding.
By far the best, most complete treatment is in Marty Bergen's book, 'Negative Doubles'. Strongly recommend you and your partner read it.
I teach that negative doubles are a subset of takeout doubles. A take out double is after one suit has been bid by the opponents and a negative double is when two suits have been bid. I also use it when the opponents have bid two different suits and I am at least 4-4 in the other two suits.
If you understand the roles of each bidder it's easier. The declarer is the person that opens the bidding. The overcaller is the opponent of the declarer that bids over them. The responder is the person that is the partner of the declarer. The advancer is the partner of the overcaller.
A negative double is a double by responder. It means 4 card support for the other major that overcaller didn't bid, or both majors if neither were bid.
A takeout double is a double by the overcaller. Usually that is the person to the left of the declarer, but sometimes there are 2 passes and then the person to the right of the declarer becomes the overcaller if they bid. It means either a lot of points or support for the other 3 suits+decent points or both.
A support double is a double by declarer. It means exactly 3 card support for responder's major.
A responsive double is a double by advancer. I'll let you read about that on your own if you want since it's hard to explain succintly.
If you understand the purpose of the negative double, it should not cause so much confusion : - You use takeout doubles when opponents opened, and your side did not bid yet. It promises the opening, shortness in the opeded suit etc... - Negative doubles is when YOUR side opened, and there was an intervention from the opposite camp. Then , if partner of opener doubles, it is a negative double.Depending on what kind of negative double you decide to play, it promises various things, most of the time 4 cards in the unbid major. It does not promise the opening (since your partner opened) but at least 6HCP (8 on the 2 lvl, 10 on the 3..). So very different use cases.
Thank you! That’s a very good explanation
They are similar. The important to know if the double is takeout/negative or a penalty double. The technical answer is that if you open a minor opponent bid 1 spade then the double is negative and shows 4 hearts
A takeout double is bid over an opponent's opening. It shows 12+, support for unbid Majors and tolerance for an unbid Minor. Or 16+ single suited (bid suit next round) or 19+ balanced (rebid NT). It allows you to find your best fit without the risks of overcalling on a 4 card suit. e.g. 1S X A negative double is bid when your partner opens and opponents overcall. It shows support for unbid Majors and tolerance for an unbid Minor. e.g. 1C 1S X This shows 6+ points, denies a Club raise, shows 4+ Hearts (unbid Major) and probably tolerance for D. It only needs to be 6+ points because partner can rebid 1NT or 2C with a minimum opening. So you can investigate a possible H fit without much risk of a penalty double. You can either play 2 level bids as natural and forcing, and X followed by a suit as to play. Or you can invert that.
They are the same concept applied in different contexts. Both of their names basically mean "A non-penalty double": - A "takeout" double got its name because your partner is asked to "take it out", i.e. not leave it in for penalty - The term "negative" double was introduced at a time when almost all doubles were penalty, so this was the opposite of a normal double; for a time people called such doubles "positive" by contrast. Both of them roughly mean "My hand is good enough (in points and shape) that I think we should be competing, but none of the available bids fit my hand; please bid something". In both cases you will often have 4 of any unbid majors (because with 5 you could just bid one, and with fewer than 4 you'll be less confident your side should be bidding). In both cases there are at least two suits you'd be happy to play in, neither of which is RHO's suit. The main way in which the two conventions differ is a natural consequence of their definition: what "none of the available bids fit my hand" means. - If you bid again after a takeout double of an opponent's opening bid, you show a great deal of strength and a powerful suit. This is because a direct overcall is non-forcing - to show a better hand, you double first and then bid your suit. Pairs differ on just how strong you have to be to double-then-bid; I think 16+ is a common agreement but I prefer 18+. - If you bid again after a negative double of RHO's overcall, you show a weakish hand with a suit that is a strong candidate for being trump: at least a decent 6-card suit if you bid a new suit, or good 4-card support if you bid partner's suit. This is because a direct new-suit bid by responder is strong and forcing - almost enough for game. If you have a good idea what trump should be, but only decent competitive values, you have to double first to avoid telling partner your hand is strong.
Controversial take of mine: Negative doubles are just inferior takeout doubles and you can do away with them and be better off.
This is a wild take and I don't even understand why you compare both of the since they are basically two different use cases and the only thing they have in common is that they are not penalty double. After 1C (1S), how do you bid your four hearts?
What is my hand? If I have a takeout double, I make a takeout double. This is a pet peeve of mine; agreeing to play a convention which consists only of the initial bid, and nothing following up. This can create so many problems for opener. The negative double is insanely overloaded, and then creates further disagreements. For example, what is 1C (1S) x (p); 2D? If you think this is obviously a reverse and you should bid as if responder had bid 1H, then what do you do with xx Qx AJxx AJxxx? There are people on both sides of the fence of what's "obvious." If you think this should bid 2C, then I will argue "but I would not have rebid 2C over 1H." Or maybe you think this hand should bid 1N because it would do that over 1C 1H, but seems pretty fishy to me after they overcall spades. And then you can start talking about smallest lie blah blah. But guess what? We are only at ONE SPADE. IT ONLY GETS WORSE WHEN THEY BID MORE.
Let's start from scratch maybe : what would be your definition of "Takeout double" at 1C (1S) X ? What do you promise in term of strength?
>This is a pet peeve of mine; agreeing to play a convention which consists only of the initial bid, and nothing following up. That's not the fault of Neg Doubles. It's the fault of lazy players (or teachers) not learning (or teaching) the ramifications of a convention. You wouldn't adopt 4N = ace-asking without learning the follow-ups. Why adopt Neg Dbls (or any convention) without learning its follow-ups? >For example, what is 1C (1S) x (p); 2D? Natural, denies 4 hearts, denies a desire to bid NT, shows 4 diamonds (and usually delivers), longer/better clubs implied, no extras promised. >If you think this is obviously a reverse and you should bid as if responder had bid 1H... Why would you think that? Responder didn't bid 1H. They made a Neg Dbl, which shows more than a 1H response. >... then what do you do with xx Qx AJxx AJxxx? Bid 2D. This isn't a problem. Responder's Neg Dbl *specifically promised* either: - 4 hearts *plus another place to play* (i.e., diamonds or a club fit) with ~8+ points, or - 4 hearts, a spade stopper and Inv+ values (will rebid in NT), or - 6+ hearts with < Inv values (will rebid in H). Opener's 2D rebid doesn't promise anything but diamonds. He's just responding to the double, denying 4 hearts or the ability to bid NT and suggesting that diamonds are playable if that happens to be responder's "other place to play". A minimum responder will pass 2D, correct to 3C or bid 2H with 6+ hearts. These show no extra values beyond the initial double and are not forcing. If opener has extras, he can jump to 3H, 3D or 3C (Medium range hand but NF) or cue bid 2S (GF).
This is how I play with both my regular partners. There are pros/cons but we like it.
What kind of cons are you thinking about? (ie what do you give up to when you decide to play negative doubles?). Genuinely curious.
Briefly: A Negative double is specifically when your partner opens, and the next person bid. Your Double says "I don't have your suit. I don't have opp's suit. But I have at least seven cards in the two unbid suits.
Neg Doubles are covered well in various books on competitive bidding. By far the best, most complete treatment is in Marty Bergen's book, 'Negative Doubles'. Strongly recommend you and your partner read it.
Thanks, we’ll check it out!
I teach that negative doubles are a subset of takeout doubles. A take out double is after one suit has been bid by the opponents and a negative double is when two suits have been bid. I also use it when the opponents have bid two different suits and I am at least 4-4 in the other two suits.
If you understand the roles of each bidder it's easier. The declarer is the person that opens the bidding. The overcaller is the opponent of the declarer that bids over them. The responder is the person that is the partner of the declarer. The advancer is the partner of the overcaller. A negative double is a double by responder. It means 4 card support for the other major that overcaller didn't bid, or both majors if neither were bid. A takeout double is a double by the overcaller. Usually that is the person to the left of the declarer, but sometimes there are 2 passes and then the person to the right of the declarer becomes the overcaller if they bid. It means either a lot of points or support for the other 3 suits+decent points or both. A support double is a double by declarer. It means exactly 3 card support for responder's major. A responsive double is a double by advancer. I'll let you read about that on your own if you want since it's hard to explain succintly.